[01:44] <cathyal> whoever is on x-chat
[02:44] <RAOF> persia: Was your ping here a couple of days ago re: nouveau?
[02:45] <persia> RAOF, yes, in the sense of "was the sync a good thing?"
[02:46] <RAOF> When I saw the intrepid-changes notification, I immediately came in here and asked why it had been syncd :)
[02:46] <RAOF> s/here/#ubuntu-motu/
[02:47] <RAOF> I don't think it'll be bad, it just won't build unless we potentially break all free 3d.
[02:47] <RAOF> (_Still_ needs a libdrm git snapshot)
[02:47] <RAOF> Oh, and we'd actually need to build the kernel module.
[02:48]  * Hobbsee wonders why more people aren't test building before uploading.
[02:49] <RAOF> That's a fair question.
[02:49] <Hobbsee> particularly for stuff that's never supposed to be working anyway
[02:57] <persia> So we should probably unsync it?
[02:57] <Hobbsee> oh, someone has reported the system-occasionally-doesn't-boot bug.  I"ve been meaning to report that
[02:58] <persia> In the "hardware detection" phase?  I've never been able to reproduce reliably enough to call it a bug.
[02:58] <Hobbsee> persia: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/263059/
[02:58] <Hobbsee> yeah
[02:58] <Hobbsee> it's better htan it used to be, though
[02:59] <persia> Hrm.  That hardware isn't in the device that sometimes hangs for me.
[02:59] <wgrant> I've never seen it, but I reboot rarely enough that I might not have had a chance.
[03:00] <Hobbsee> i used to have about 1 boot out of 5 succeed.
[03:03] <persia> wgrant, That's probably it.  I've never seen it except on things I most use for testing.
[03:36] <ScottK> lamont`: So now that openexr is built on hppa, I retried kde4libs.  FTBFS twice due to GCC segfaults in different places in the build.  I give up.
[03:37] <MacSlow> anybody with a clue where polkit-dbus is suppose to come from?
[03:38] <MacSlow> I can't find it neither at freedesktop.org nor at svn.gnome.org
[03:38] <MacSlow> thanks in advance!
[03:40] <james_w> MacSlow: hey, it's part of policykit
[03:40] <james_w> MacSlow: are you reporting bugs, or just after the source?
[03:40] <MacSlow> james_w, just needing to compile it
[03:40] <MacSlow> james_w, no bugs
[03:40] <james_w> MacSlow: it's built from the policykit source package
[03:41] <james_w> libpolkit-dbus0 is the package I believe
[03:41] <MacSlow> james_w, but which configure option causes polkit-dbus to be built and installed?
[03:43] <james_w> MacSlow: none I think, you just need the dbus libs installed
[03:44] <james_w> and it's libpolkit-dbus2 for the Intrepid package
[03:44] <MacSlow> james_w, I'm looking at PolicyKit upstream atm and there is no src/polkit-dbus ... ???
[03:45] <MacSlow> was that dropped from PolicyKit?
[03:45] <james_w> it's in the 0.9 version I have here
[03:45] <james_w> src/polkit-dbus/polkit-dbus.h etc.
[03:46] <MacSlow> james_w, I grabbed PolicyKit from gitweb.freedesktop.org earlier today and there's no PolicyKit/src/polkit-dbus
[03:47] <MacSlow> james_w, only the deb source from intrepid has that
[03:47] <MacSlow> I'm confused
[03:47] <james_w> so there isn't
[03:48] <MacSlow> hm... looking at "git log" from upstream PolicyKit libpolkit-dbus was merged with libpolkit
[03:48] <MacSlow> in july this year
[03:48] <james_w> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/PolicyKit/commit/?id=2a35667777841f7ea1ef2912963962f04955f9e6
[03:48] <MacSlow> yeah
[03:49] <MacSlow> *sigh*
[03:49]  * james_w hopes this isn't face-browser related :-)
[03:50]  * MacSlow coughs loudly
[03:50] <james_w> MacSlow: are you at the hackfest this weekend?
[03:50] <MacSlow> jup...
[03:51] <MacSlow> actually the hackfest is over since yesterday and right now is the summit
[03:51] <MacSlow> I wanted to go to bed, but all that dbus, ck, pk mess is keeping me up
[03:52] <MacSlow> so polkit-gnome isn't up to speed with polkit
[03:55] <james_w> is it not?
[03:55] <james_w> that commit said policykit would be broken for a bit
[03:55] <MacSlow> polkit-gnome upstream still requires polkit-dbus
[03:56] <james_w> rubbish
[03:56] <james_w> how was the UE sprint?
[03:56] <MacSlow> yeah *sigh*
[03:56] <MacSlow> intense
[03:56] <MacSlow> lots of good ideas, lots of work to do
[03:56] <james_w> excellent
[04:03] <NCommander> hola persia
[04:04] <NCommander> ajmitch, I won'tbe able to get to your FTBFS until at least tommorw, I lack access to an Ubuntu box ATM
[04:04] <ajmitch> NCommander: no rush
[04:04]  * ajmitch has been looking at other stuff anyway
[04:05] <NCommander> ajmitch, if you wish it done tongiht, please provide one (1) SSH account to an intrepid box or equivelent ;-)
[04:06] <NCommander> ajmitch, I can also attempt to teach you about libtool ;-)
[04:06] <ajmitch> I already know enough to run away screaming thanks
[04:07] <NCommander> But M4 and shell-independent scripting is awesome :-)
[04:07]  * NCommander notes though sometimes its easier to port a shell to a system them port a script to a shell
[04:11] <ajmitch> sigh, looks like the previously useful NZ ubuntu mirror is now horribly out of date
[04:13] <NCommander> Hrm
[04:14] <NCommander> ajmitch, a little over a week behind
[04:14] <NCommander> ajmitch, the other NZ mirror however is only six hours behind
[04:14] <ajmitch> or more
[04:14] <NCommander> Launchpad says its only six hours since the last push
[04:14] <ajmitch> which one are you looking at as the 'other'?
[04:15] <NCommander> Ubuntu mirror "Ftp-citylink-co-nz"
[04:15] <NCommander> deb http://nz.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ YOUR_DISTRO_SERIES_HERE main
[04:15] <NCommander> "Six hours behind"
[04:15] <NCommander> nz2 is a week behind
[04:15] <ajmitch> right, nz2.archive.ubuntu.com used to be a better option
[04:16] <ajmitch> better peering, same ISP as my home DSL, more frequent updates
[04:16] <NCommander> Well, launchpad says its still syncing with ftp-master
[04:16] <NCommander> (last check in 3-4 hours ago)
[04:17] <ajmitch>      mdadm | 2.6.7-3ubuntu5 | http://nz2.archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/main Sources
[04:17] <ajmitch>      mdadm | 2.6.7-3ubuntu7 | http://archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/main Sources
[04:17] <ajmitch> definitely over a week, the mirror admin used to be in the nz loco channel too
[04:17] <ajmitch> anyway, it's only relevant for my screwed up pbuilder configs now
[04:18] <NCommander> change .pbuilderc and then pbuilder update --override-config ;-)
[04:18] <ajmitch> and anything I've had to build :P
[04:18] <NCommander> It could be worse
[04:19] <ajmitch> yes
[05:23] <mcasadevall> james_w, ping
[05:24] <ScottK-laptop> mcasadevall: So I retired kde4libs on hppa after openexr built (thinks)  FTBFS twice with GCC segfaults in different places in the package.  I think I give.
[05:25] <StevenK> Yay, ICE
[05:27] <mcasadevall> Yeah ...
[05:27] <mcasadevall> Even I would call it quits after that
[05:28] <mcasadevall> Once NPTL is somewhat more settled on HPPA, it might be possible to help fix up the port
[05:28] <mcasadevall> Until that time ...
[05:28] <ScottK-laptop> What decade does that happen in?
[05:30] <StevenK> When someone cares to fix the toolchain, I guess
[05:30] <StevenK> hppa is more than able to keep up and not affect general Ubuntu issues -- Dapper proved that
[05:31] <wgrant> Isn't hppa ahead of ia64 at the moment?
[05:31] <wgrant> Or is that just because everything fails?
[05:32] <StevenK> Mostly everything fails on hppa
[05:32] <superm1> why is it still kept in the buildd farm?  Is there really enough real world usage to justify it?
[05:33] <mcasadevall> superm1, its probably easier to leave it up than dismantle the buildds
[05:34] <mcasadevall> StevenK, the main issue is that NPTL on hppa is notoriously unstable, to the point that the Debian port continued using LinuxThreads all the way to glibc 2.7
[05:35] <NCommander> StevenK, since HP pushes HP-UX on HPPA more than Linux, there has been relatively little corperate support for the architecture as far as I can tell (although lamont would easily know more than I do)
[05:37] <StevenK> bdale, too
[05:40]  * NCommander is just sad thatarm still isn't an architecture
[05:41] <StevenK> No, arm is a body part
[05:41] <StevenK> :-P
[05:45] <ScottK-laptop> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known_Space#ARM
[05:49] <StevenK> ScottK-laptop: Did you file a kio-sword removal bug?
[05:50] <ScottK-laptop> StevenK: No txwikinger said he'd do it after he cared for the rdepends.
[05:50] <ScottK-laptop> There are some sword packages that depend on it and it's in the ichthux meta package.
[05:50] <StevenK> Ah, kay
[05:51] <StevenK> Looks like I missed libflashsupport, too
[05:51] <ScottK-laptop> An action passed is an action completed.  ;-)
[05:51] <ScottK-laptop> Can't that one be removed?
[05:51] <StevenK> I dunno, can it?
[05:52] <StevenK> I think james_w filed removals for pnet and pnet-assemblies, too
[05:53] <ScottK-laptop> StevenK: Reading debian/changelog for this upload, I think investigating removal is a better use of time than fixing: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/10.0.12.10ubuntu1
[05:55] <StevenK> desktop-multiplier requires it
[05:55] <StevenK> But only on i386
[05:56] <StevenK> ScottK-laptop: It looks like libflashsupport makes Pulse + Flash happier
[05:57] <superm1> well at least it's supposed to.
[05:59] <ScottK-laptop> StevenK: From what little I know about it, I think the theory and the practice were different.
[06:00] <StevenK> ScottK-laptop: I'd like to confirm that first
[06:01] <ScottK-laptop> Of course
[06:15] <Hobbsee> StevenK: libflashsupport is generally a pain, and the first thing to do to solve flash-based crashes is to remove it.
[06:16] <Hobbsee> you don't need it, and it crashes less if you don't ahve it.
[06:17] <StevenK> Ah ha.
[06:17] <StevenK> So it should be gotten rid of
[06:17] <StevenK> ScottK-laptop, Hobbsee: One of you file a bug
[06:17] <StevenK> :-P
[06:18]  * ScottK-laptop is roughly one minute from going to sleep, so Hobbsee, would you please?
[06:24] <wgrant> libflashsupport works fine often.
[06:27] <StevenK> See. Conflicting information
[07:22] <Hobbsee> wgrant: do you even use flash? :P
[07:36] <wgrant> Hobbsee: No, but other family members do.
[07:37] <Treenaks> On amd64, flash works fine when it works.. but that's only 50% of the time
[07:38] <Treenaks> the other 50% I get a grey rectangle in the web page..
[07:42] <Treenaks> ScottK2: (wow, you're high :P)
[07:43] <Treenaks> ScottK2: (~8611m)
[09:58] <mdke> asac: I don't think we have any documentation for that type of connection, so it shouldn't be a problem. But the thing to do is to email the ubuntu-doc mailing list; there is someone who takes particular care over the internet documentation so he will take a look
[11:55] <ogra> Keybuk, did udev drop /dev/video support ?
[11:56] <ogra> grep video /etc/udev/rules.d/* doesnt reveal any rule that would create a /dev/video0 apparently
[12:04] <ogra> hmm, might as well be the kernel, i dont even see my webcam with the current uvcvideo driver anymore
[12:21] <TuX_Claudiu> hi, i have a problem, i'm unable to find my floppy device in /dev, i tried to install my grub on floppy, but i don't have any floppy in /dev how do i fix this ?
[12:21] <TuX_Claudiu> i'm using ubuntu 8.10
[12:23] <persia> TuX_Claudiu, Have you tried #ubuntu+1 ?
[12:24] <TuX_Claudiu> nope
[12:24]  * ogra really doesnt get where his webcam went ... 
[12:25] <ogra> i dont even see it in lsusb anymore
[15:04] <ogra> The following NEW packages will be installed:
[15:04] <ogra>   autotools-dev{a} bsdmainutils{a} debhelper{a} ...
[15:04] <ogra> hmm, what does the {a} mean ?
[15:04]  * ogra hasnt seen that before
[15:05] <ion_> Automatically installed, probably.
[15:20] <persia> Indeed.  Automatic.  It means they will be automatically removed when rdepends are removed.
[15:20] <persia> (theoretically : the logic isn't quite perfect)
[15:24] <ogra> well, makes sense
[16:32] <ogra> hmm
[16:32]  * ogra wonders why the profile bootoption doesnt create any readahead file anymore
[16:32] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ ls -l /etc/readahead/boot
[16:32] <ogra> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2008-10-12 17:25 /etc/readahead/boot
[16:41] <persia> ogra, Are you about for a bit?
[16:41] <ogra> persia, probably rebooting here and there, but apart from that, yes
[16:43] <persia> ogra, we're discussing bug #281984 in -motu, and think we have a fix : otherwise network breaks on upgrade for most users (we think), and doesn't restore unless network manager is working.  Could you sponsor it once the testing is complete?
[16:43]  * ogra looks
[16:43] <ogra> did you talk to asac ?
[16:44] <ogra> seems he is running an outdated version of NM
[16:45] <james_w> he's not running NM
[16:45] <ogra> well, thats required
[16:45] <ogra> afaik
[16:45] <james_w> what's required?
[16:46] <ogra> nm
[16:46] <james_w> join -server and say that :-)
[16:46] <ogra> ofr setting routes etc
[16:46] <ogra> it wont touch static devices, but manages all setting beyonf that
[16:46] <ogra> *beyond
[16:50] <persia> ogra, No, the logic is wrong.  It *always* manages all devices, even when it's not installed.
[16:51] <ogra> well, that case should simply not happen :)
[16:51] <ogra> it should be installed
[16:51] <persia> apt-get install network-manager && apt-get remove network-manager
[16:51] <ogra> at least the commandline pieces, you dont need the applet
[16:51] <persia> Not on a server.
[16:52] <persia> For Jaunty, network-manager might be able to go on a server, but 0.7 doesn't do system-level stuff yet : it's still session-level.
[16:52] <ogra> nope
[16:52] <ogra> since 0.7 it does all the system level stuff
[16:52] <persia> Oh, right, but we have 0.6.8.
[16:52]  * persia was confused.
[16:52] <ogra> nope
[16:52] <ogra> we have 0.7 in intrepid
[16:53] <persia> ifupdown (0.6.8ubuntu10) intrepid; urgency=low ... Alexander Sack <asac@ubuntu.com>  Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:46:47 +0200
[16:53] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -l network-manager|grep ii
[16:53] <ogra> ii  network-manager                            0.7~~svn20081008t224042-0ubuntu2      network management framework daemon
[16:53] <persia> *you* have 0.7 installed.
[16:53] <ogra> yes, from the standard archive
[16:53] <persia> Oh, so do I.  Now I'm very confused.
[16:53] <ogra> with the recent updates
[16:53]  * persia looks at the seeds
[16:53] <ogra> it can even set your hostname etc
[16:54] <ogra> (which i think alex patched out for now)
[16:55] <persia> Looking at the seeds, it appears that network-manager is only installed for kubuntu, ubuntu desktop, ubuntu mid, ubuntu mobile, and xubuntu (although I don't have a local copy of the mythbuntu seeds : I should fix that)
[16:56] <ogra> well, what exactly the prob now ?
[16:57] <superm1> persia, it is installed for mythbuntu as well
[16:57] <james_w> if I have a remote server, and I once installed network-manager, and then removed, but did not purge it, and I upgrade to the latest ifupdown and reboot
[16:57] <ogra> if the user has created a /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf thats his own fault
[16:57] <superm1> persia, in our desktop seed: desktop: * (network-manager-gnome)
[16:57] <persia> If /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf is present, and network-manager not installed, ifupdown doesn't manage interfaces
[16:58] <ogra> why would it be present ?
[16:58] <james_w> then it will see /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf and "ifup -a" won't work, so I won't get networking on boot
[16:58] <persia> apt-get install network-manager && apt-get remove network-manage
[16:58] <jcristau> ogra: because nm is removed but not purged.
[16:58] <ogra> unless you played with it, in which case i exepct you to know how to cleanly remove it
[16:59] <persia> ogra, Except the standard advice for quite a while when dealing with network-manager issues was to remove it.
[16:59] <ogra> jcristau, well, if you are able to install it on a server to tiner with it i wuld expect you to be capable to bring your system into a clean state
[16:59] <ogra> *tinker
[16:59] <james_w> ogra: ok, how about I don't want nm to manage my devices to I edit that file and delete the managed line? In that case neither nm nor ifupdown will manage my devices, again giving me no networking
[17:00] <ogra> why would you want to have that file at all ?
[17:00] <jcristau> ogra: and other people expect removed packages to not get in the way
[17:00] <ogra> if it doesnt exist ifupdown DTRT
[17:00] <ogra> as well so if you installed it and it has the right option in it (which is the default)
[17:01] <ogra> the only breakage will happen if you *manually edited the file*
[17:01] <persia> ogra, OK.  Let's ignore that.  We've a logic test that looks for the string "managed" and defaults to true if the string isn't found.  Surely that's a bug, right?
[17:01] <ogra> or if you used a development version of NM in which case i would expect you to know that you use a *development* version and can cope with it
[17:01] <persia> (it also returns true if the string is found)
[17:02] <ogra> persia, no, since managed is *off* in the default file since two versions of NM
[17:02] <ogra> the only way that breaks is that you had installed NM durin the dev cycle
[17:03] <persia> ogra, Ignore the context.  The logic in the check is wrong.
[17:03] <ogra> the current package and the released version will have the right setting ... so it doesnt matter if the file is removed or not
[17:03] <ogra> since it will always default to make ifup -a work
[17:04] <ogra> WARNING: ifup -a is disabled in favour of NetworkManager.
[17:04] <ogra>   Set ifupdown:managed=false in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf.
[17:04] <persia> ogra, No, because the logic is wrong.  Instead of defaulting to make ifup work, it defaults to break ifup.
[17:04] <ogra> is what the bug says
[17:04] <ogra> no
[17:04] <persia> Yes, the bug doesn't describe the issue very well.
[17:04] <persia> Read the code.
[17:04] <ogra> it defaults to make ifup -a work
[17:05] <persia> "int managed = iniparser_getboolean (ini_dict, "ifupdown:managed", -1);" shoud be "int managed = iniparser_getboolean (ini_dict, "ifupdown:managed", 0);"
[17:05] <ogra> because either the file doesnt exist or it has "ifupdown:managed=false"
[17:05] <persia> By passing "-1" as the default, the default for managed becomes TRUE
[17:05] <james_w> ogra: of course they are not the only two cases
[17:05] <ogra> james_w, what are the others ?
[17:06] <ogra> if you have changed the file manually i expect you to know what you are doing ... the same goes for an unreleased ubuntu version
[17:06] <persia> Right.  Ignore the context.
[17:07] <persia> The behaviour you describe is how it should work.
[17:07] <ogra> the bug itself, being  "ifupdown:managed=true" is fixed
[17:07] <persia> It's not how it currently works.  It currently defaults to TRUE.
[17:09] <ogra> if a user removed nm before the fix went in he might have that setting as true, but thats the nature of a development release, it has bugs and you are supposed to be able to cope with that or not use a unreleased distro
[17:09] <james_w> ogra: while the defaults may work fine, the system fails open, as you can end up with nothing managing your interfaces.
[17:09] <ogra> persia, it doesnt
[17:09] <persia> ogra, -1 doesn't evaluate to TRUE in C?
[17:10] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ grep true /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf
[17:10] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$
[17:10] <persia> ogra, Right.  No issue there.  It's the check in ifupdown that has the issue.  "int managed = iniparser_getboolean (ini_dict, "ifupdown:managed", -1);" shoud be "int managed = iniparser_getboolean (ini_dict, "ifupdown:managed", 0);
[17:10] <ogra> if the file exists it will by default be false
[17:10] <ogra> if the file doesnt exist it doesnt matter at all
[17:10] <james_w> ogra: while a user should be expected to be able to fix things if they are running a development release, can't we fix things when it is a clear bug, we know the fix, and it is small and non-invasive?
[17:11] <persia> The code is passing -1 as the default value.  That's TRUE.  It doesn't matter what is in the configuration.
[17:11] <ogra> james_w, all i say is that NM is fine
[17:11] <james_w> ogra: I agree, the bug is in ifupdown, I've never said nm was doing anything wrong.
[17:12] <ogra> well, ask asac what he thought :)
[17:12] <ogra> he made the ifupdown change
[17:13] <james_w> ogra: it's a small logic bug in the change he made. I doubt someone would pass "-1" if they wanted a true value, "1" would be much more usual.
[17:13] <james_w> right, the user that reported the bug confirms the fix, is a core-dev willing to upload the fixed package?
[17:15] <cjwatson> Riddell,ArneGoetje: en@quot and en@boldquot are variants of English messages with different kinds of quotation marks; run 'info gettext' and press Ctrl-s @quot
[17:16] <cjwatson> Riddell,ArneGoetje: I think you have to go through some contortions to get them to work in Ubuntu though; they at least don't seem to work out of the box, unless I'm missing something. I wouldn't worry about them
[17:16] <ogra> james_w, if it doesnt break the behavior :)
[17:16] <ogra> james_w, there is still time to revert it, i would go ahead
[17:16] <james_w> ogra: nope, it shouldn't break anything that currently works
[17:17] <james_w> ogra: well, I can't go ahead, I'm asking for someone to sponsor it.
[17:17] <ogra> oh
[17:17] <ogra> james_w, you are not core-dev ??
[17:17] <ogra> geez ... about time, eh ? :) where is the fix
[17:17] <james_w> I've only been a MOTU for two weeks :-)
[17:18] <james_w> the fix is in the bug report
[17:18] <persia> And we're *very* glad to have you :)
[17:18] <ogra> the bugreport is a ranting chaos ...
[17:18] <persia> Ignore the report.  The fix is good.
[17:19] <ogra> ah
[17:19]  * ogra had to reload the report :)
[17:21] <ogra> uploaded
[17:21] <persia> ogra, Thank you.  Sorry for the confusion of the report.
[17:22] <ogra> yeah, the anti NM ranting got me quite confused
[17:23] <james_w> thanks ogra
[17:23] <ogra> lest see if asac kills me tomorrow :)
[17:23] <persia> ogra, If he complains, just blame james_w :)
[17:24] <ogra> the changelog already does that enough i think :)
[17:24] <james_w> persia told me too :-p
[17:24] <persia> OK.  Blame me then :)
[17:24]  * persia looks for another changelog entry to avoid being in
[18:44]  * ogra cries ...
[18:44]  * ogra wants his webcam back
[18:45] <stgraber> oh, you broke a webcam ?
[18:45] <stgraber> or just the driver :)
[18:46] <ogra> stgraber, its simply gone
[18:46] <ogra> i have a builtin cam in my display frame on the laptop
[18:47] <dmb> any of you know the last release that used linuxthreads as opposed to nptl?
[18:47] <stgraber> ogra: USB wired (as in, it's exposed as a usb device) ?
[18:47] <ogra> i cant see it anymore, not in lsusb nor in lspci or any other HW detection tool
[18:48] <ogra> it used to use uvcvideo and was/is a usb device afaik
[18:48] <ogra> i only used it once to test it in hardy
[18:49] <ogra> loading uvcvideo doesnt reveal anything in dmesg either
[18:49] <stgraber> hmm, ok. I have some uvcvideo webcams at the office, I'll give that a try tomorrow. Though last video conference we had (1-2 weeks) it worked correctly.
[18:50] <ogra> well, there is also a transition away from /dev/video going on apparently
[18:50] <ogra> but that still doesnt explain why lsusb doesnt see it
[18:52]  * ogra gets a hardy livecd
[19:06] <evand> slangasek: is there a trick to preparing grub from bzr for an upload?  The clean rule removes files that are in the repository.
[19:08] <directhex> dmb, has ubuntu EVER done that?
[19:08] <directhex> dmb, NPTL became the norm when 2.6 kernels became the norm
[19:42] <slangasek> evand: well, I use bzr builddeb, and never run the clean rule in my working directory
[19:55] <fbond> Hi, I just upgraded to Intrepid and am seeing some funny issues with my network.  I'm trying to debug to see if I can figure out exactly where the problem is.  I suspect the b43 driver.  I have a wireshark trace of the problem.  Is anyone able to assist me in debugging?
[19:57] <fbond> Actually, nm, let me do some process-of-elimination tests to implicate b43...
[20:14] <evand> yay, after struggling with bzr bd for a bit, I got it working.  Thanks slangasek
[20:14] <Chipzz> fbond: 1) it's weekend and 2) #ubuntu+1 (cfr topic)
[20:16] <superm1> StevenK, well given bug 281580 we might have to bring a bluez-compat package it looks.  I'm definitely against putting those binaries in the main package though.
[20:17] <superm1> StevenK, i've got two of these keyboards though, i'll experiment with them in the wizard.  i know they are finicky to get into pairing mode sometimes
[20:18] <superm1> oh well actually mine are both aluminum, the newer ones.
[21:06] <emgent> ScottK-laptop: ping
[21:06] <dmb> directhex, just trying to build this application that depends on linuxthreads
[21:07] <dmb> sheepshaver for ppc requires linuxthreads, or it crashes
[21:07] <dmb> well, not crashes, but errors on the build
[21:07] <cjwatson> I think in early releases of Ubuntu we did build with 2.4 compatibility in glibc for at least some architectures, which resulted in linuxthreads by default
[21:08] <dmb> cjwatson, you happen to know which release possible for ppc?
[21:08] <cjwatson> I'm looking, but it's sort of hard to tell at this distance
[21:08] <dmb> yeh
[21:08] <cjwatson> certainly no later than dapper, probably earlier
[21:09] <dmb> yeh, i looked into dapper, uses nptl there also
[21:09] <cjwatson> nothing really has any excuse for still requiring linuxthreads
[21:09]  * cjwatson fishes down ancient .diff.gzs from LP
[21:12] <dmb> cjwatson, indeed, basically, what they did was copy and paste some stuff from linuxthreads into there implementation, changed the structs a bit, and some more
[21:13] <dmb> obviously bad programming practice
[21:15] <cjwatson> dmb: I'd have to actually build a chroot to be sure of it, but it looks to me as if we enabled NPTL on powerpc in Ubuntu 5.10
[21:15] <dmb> hmm
[21:17] <dmb> you can usually tell by looking at at the libc6-dev package and looking at /usr/include/pthread.h and seeing if in the comments it mentions linuxthreads
[21:18] <dmb> where can you find the old release stuff?
[21:18] <dmb> its not in archive.ubuntu.com
[21:18] <cjwatson> phone
[21:21] <cjwatson> dmb: I was looking at the source packages, not the binaries, so I was looking for debian/sysdeps/powerpc.mk
[21:21] <cjwatson> with GLIBC_PASSES and/or *_add-ons variables mentioning nptl
[21:21] <cjwatson> dmb: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/glibc has the publishing history - only the final release and some post-release updates for pre-dapper, but good enough for this purpose
[21:21] <dmb> oh
[21:22] <cjwatson> dmb: installable archives of end-of-life releases are at http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
[21:22] <cjwatson> so you could probably double-check libc6-dev from there
[21:23] <jspiro> just curious: do you offer downloadable preinstalled VMs of ubuntu?
[21:23] <cjwatson> jspiro: http://isv-image.ubuntu.com/vmware/ has VMware images for some older releases, although not for 8.04 (yet? I'm not sure, I don't run that site any more)
[21:24] <jspiro> cjwatson:  cool, they should market that site more for home users who want to run Ubuntu in VMware to try it.
[21:26] <cjwatson> I believe it's actually quite prominent in the VMware appliances download site
[21:26] <cjwatson> at least it used to be
[21:40] <gaspa> cjwatson, pitti: i've patched usplash for #219867 (and probably other)...
[21:40] <gaspa> basically 'status' overflow without any check.
[21:40] <gaspa> but i'm wondering what's the expected behavior with a status command that overflow...
[21:41] <cjwatson> well, presumably there are two bugs here
[21:41] <cjwatson> one is that usplash just leaves text hanging around the screen on overflow, rather than either cutting it off or arranging to scroll it
[21:41] <cjwatson> the other is that initscripts prints a message that we know will overflow usplash
[21:42] <cjwatson> I'd be inclined to say that usplash should cut off the message at the borders of the region it's going to scroll; pitti might feel differently
[21:42] <gaspa> cjwatson: well, the problem is in the fsck steps. classical initscript behave correctly.
[21:43] <cjwatson> it's in /lib/init/usplash-fsck-functions.sh, right? that file is owned by the initscripts binary package
[21:43] <gaspa> yep.
[21:46] <gaspa> cjwatson: couldn't we wrap status too? I simply did this way. ( I'm ready to change my patch as well )
[21:47] <gaspa> ... probably it involves problems with newlines, or redrawing of the status...
[21:48] <cjwatson> gaspa: well, that would work too I guess
[21:49] <cjwatson> it's been a bit too long since I was in the internals of usplash to say
[21:49] <cjwatson> I'd rather pitti reviewed it
[21:49] <cjwatson> (if he has time)
[21:49] <gaspa> ok, i'd ask him what he think about that...
[22:32] <ogra> bah, no bluetooth love at all on my laptop
[22:33]  * ogra just tried his dongle for the first time with the new bluez stack ... but it looks more loike blues than bluez
[23:00] <asac> ogra: persia: whats up on the front? is my iniparser wrong and should use ,0?
[23:01] <asac> james_w: ^^
[23:02] <james_w> asac: yeah, I believe so, I requested the upload of that change
[23:03] <asac> james_w: do you have that change somewhere?
[23:03] <asac> james_w: or was it uploaded?
[23:03] <james_w> asac: it was uploaded, you can find the diff attached to bug 281984
[23:05] <asac> james_w: look at the debdiff ;)
[23:05] <asac> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18464705/ifupdown_0.6.8ubuntu10_0.6.8ubuntu11.diff.gz
[23:05] <asac> whoever uploaded it, eliminated the _darcs directory :-P
[23:06] <james_w> oops, yeah, I should have warned them about that
[23:06] <asac> james_w: well. i bumbed into this and it wasnt really nice
[23:06] <bunnyto> I LOVE you guys... i LOVE UBUNTU!!! if you all were girls i would....
[23:06] <asac> i mean that things refused to not remove _darcs unless i built with -iNOTHING -INOTHING :)
[23:07] <james_w> heh :-)
[23:07] <asac> anyway. i think we should resurrect that.
[23:07] <asac> whats the reason to change dpkg-source in such a way that it removed _darcs automatically?
[23:09] <ogra> asac, my fault, what did i do wrong ?
[23:09] <jspiro> bunnyto:  thank you.
[23:09] <jspiro> i guess
[23:10] <jspiro> see, the only problem with your comment is that i'm a guy.
[23:10] <jspiro> :)
[23:10] <asac> ogra: you bumped into the (imo) new behaviour that you need to add a fake -iNOTHING -INOTHING in order to make dpkg-source keep your vcs dir ;)
[23:10] <asac> ogra: i will resurrect that. so not a big problem..
[23:10] <ogra> i pulled the source package, dpkg-source -x'ed, cd'ed into it, ran patch -p1 <../blah.diff and ran dpkg-buildpackage
[23:11] <ogra> ouch, ok
[23:11] <asac> ogra: yeah. dpkg-buildpackage will strip _darcs if you dont tell different
[23:11] <ogra> ok, i'll keep that in mind, really sorry for that
[23:11] <asac> ogra: i was quite confused when reviewing my debdiffs before uploading
[23:11] <asac> ogra: heh. no problem at all ;)
[23:15] <bunnyto> is possible to upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10 ?
[23:16] <pwnguin> bunnyto: yes. #ubuntu+1 can help you with that
[23:17] <bunnyto> thanks guys!! keep the good work!!! damn.. i wish you all were girls.. dammit.... i would... THANKS!!
[23:20] <jmillikin> I have a one-line patch that I'd like to get into gst-plugins-base package; is that easy? There's an off-by-one error that's preventing all my album art from displaying.
[23:20] <jmillikin> Reported upstream at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556066 , but haven't bothered with a launchpad bug
[23:38] <johanbr> How does usb-creator determine what's a USB disk? It doesn't seem to want to recognize my SD card.
[23:38] <pwnguin> uh
[23:39] <pwnguin> it depends on how your system is built
[23:39] <pwnguin> sometimes, SD readers will export USB mass storage to the OS
[23:39] <cjwatson> it looks in hal: storage.bus == usb, storage.removable, and storage.drive_type == disk
[23:40] <pwnguin> sometimes, they expect drivers to handle the real work.
[23:42] <johanbr> Yes I just found "if (dev.PropertyExists('storage.bus')"
[23:42] <johanbr> Whereas my SD card has   storage.bus = 'mmc'  (string)
[23:42] <pwnguin> that would be not usb
[23:43] <cjwatson> pwnguin: you're stating the obvious a bit :)
[23:43] <cjwatson> johanbr: bug 280336
[23:43] <johanbr> cjwatson: Oh, someone beat me to it. :) Thank you.
[23:43] <cjwatson> seems to be the same
[23:43] <cjwatson> interestingly storage.removable == false there
[23:43] <pwnguin> cjwatson: ok, captain knows everything; whats the difference between sd boot and usb boot?
[23:44] <cjwatson> pwnguin: does it matter? if the BIOS supports it, it would be nice for usb-creator to be able to generate bootable images on it
[23:44] <johanbr> pwnguin: Well, your bios needs to able to boot from your card reader for the former.
[23:45] <cjwatson> pwnguin: and if you're going to be rude you can leave
[23:46] <johanbr> And I also have storage.removable == false. That sounds like a bug somewhere.
[23:46] <cjwatson> yeah, I think I agree there
[23:47] <cjwatson> though I wonder if it's necessary for usb-creator to check storage.removable
[23:48] <cjwatson> johanbr: storage.removable.media_available is true though
[23:48] <cjwatson> (at least in newz2000's lshal)
[23:48] <johanbr> same for me
[23:49] <johanbr> I suppose it's true that the reader itself it not removable. At least not very easily. :)
[23:49] <johanbr> *is not
[23:50] <cjwatson> the definition of storage.removable in hal-spec-properties is "Media can be removed from the storage device", though
[23:50] <pwnguin> removable versus hotpluggable
[23:51]  * ogra sighs ... i knew i had the solution how to prevent the stripping of translations from sourcepackages but i cant find the runes to put into debian/rules anymore
[23:51] <cjwatson> hmm
[23:51] <cjwatson>          * As discussed on lkml, GENHD_FL_REMOVABLE should:
[23:51] <cjwatson>          *
[23:51] <cjwatson>          * - be set for removable media with permanent block devices
[23:51] <cjwatson>          * - be unset for removable block devices with permanent media
[23:51] <cjwatson>          *
[23:51] <cjwatson>          * Since MMC block devices clearly fall under the second
[23:52] <cjwatson>          * case, we do not set GENHD_FL_REMOVABLE.  Userspace
[23:52] <cjwatson>          * should use the block device creation/destruction hotplug
[23:52] <cjwatson>          * messages to tell when the card is present.
[23:52] <cjwatson> (drivers/mmc/card/block.c)
[23:52] <pwnguin> so does that mean usb is broken?
[23:54] <johanbr> What does "removable block device" mean in this context?
[23:54] <pwnguin> probably device node
[23:54] <cjwatson> I don't have the lkml context, dunno
[23:54] <pwnguin> ie /mnt versus /media
[23:54] <cjwatson> ogra: export NO_PKG_MANGLE=1
[23:54] <cjwatson> neither /mnt nor /media is a device node ...?
[23:54] <ogra> my builtin readers are all plain PCI devices
[23:54] <ogra> not attached to USB
[23:55] <ogra> cjwatson, thanks a lot, i searched myself to dead
[23:55] <pwnguin> cjwatson: what i mean is that /mnt is expected to be static, and /media is "removable media"
[23:55] <johanbr> This discussion has nothing to do with mount points.
[23:55] <cjwatson> pwnguin: hmm, that just takes us back to the question though
[23:55] <bunnyto> when is going to be released 8.10?
[23:55] <pwnguin> but indeed, the lkml context would be helpful
[23:55] <cjwatson> bunnyto: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
[23:56] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
[23:56] <ogra> heh, to slow
[23:56] <pwnguin> cjwatson: what i can see though, is that hotpluggable is set for both my sd card and usb drive
[23:58] <johanbr> Think I found the lkml discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/fa.linux.kernel/browse_thread/thread/be696fb615c95ddf
[23:58] <cjwatson> so I think "permanent block devices" means that /dev/cdrom is the same no matter what CD you insert, and doesn't change depending on the media
[23:58] <cjwatson> I'm not familiar with how MMC is different
[23:59] <johanbr> "However, when we insert and remove a MMC card, we create and destroy the block device itself.  Therefore, as far as the block layer is concerned, the device itself is being inserted and removed, so telling the block layer that the media is removable is just silly."
[23:59] <cjwatson> anyway, a different question is what usb-creator is trying to achieve with this check