[00:26] <circinae> hi everyone
[00:35] <circinae> does ubuntu mobile works on HTC Magician?
[03:04] <persia> circinae, Which processor does the HTC Magician use?
[03:05] <circinae> it's Intel PXA272
[03:05] <circinae> 416MHz
[03:07] <persia> Ah, then no.  There are no ARM buildds on launchpad, so officially, Ubuntu doesn't work on ARM.
[03:08] <persia> You could try something from the rebuild project at mojo.handhelds.org, but I know the "ubuntu-mobile" package for 8.04 doesn't quite work right, so you might have to wait (or help with) the rebuild for 8.10 once it is released.
[03:10] <circinae> oh..
[03:10] <circinae> ok 10x )
[09:46] <smp4488> how would i go about skinning rhythumbox to embed it into mobile?
[13:53] <apachelogger> ahoy
[13:53] <persia> apachelogger, So, which HW do you have?
[13:53] <apachelogger> none, I am proposing mobile stuff for Jaunty at today's kubuntu meeting
[13:53] <apachelogger> the KDE desktopshell is getting a containment for MID with KDE 4.2 (i.e. what is shipped with jaunty)
[13:54] <persia> apachelogger, OK.  I'd recommend using the following naming scheme : kubuntu-mid if you base something off Qtopia (or it's decendants), and ubuntu-mobile if you just shrink Kubuntu and add some WM tweaks.
[13:54] <ogra> define MID :)
[13:54] <persia> As a long-time Qtopia user, I'd love to see a kubuntu-mid package based on Qtopia.
[13:54] <apachelogger> ogra: e.g. Nokia's N810
[13:55] <ogra> apachelogger, well, thats a device that might actually be acceptable for both :)
[13:55] <apachelogger> nifty :D
[13:55] <ogra> despite the fact that we dont support the architecture indeed
[13:56] <persia> Well, assuming LP grows some ARM buildds.  Until then, we're limited to the current architectures.
[13:56] <apachelogger> ncommander wanted to get that started, IIRC he even has access to Riddell's N810
[13:57] <persia> There are a few people working on ARM Ubuntu.  I think the largest cluster is at mojo.handhelds.org
[13:57]  * ogra has a n800 as well and has played with debian on it
[13:58] <ogra> resembling the current ubuntu-mobile desktop, its very usable beyond the fact that only 50% of the HW works
[13:58] <ogra> (no sound, no compsite support wlan only through the proprietary nokia driver etc)
[13:58] <ogra> (oh, and no power management at all)
[13:59] <ogra> but the ui works nicely on it
[13:59] <apachelogger> :)
[13:59] <ogra> and i imagine the mid ui would work as nicely 
[14:00] <ogra> but we'll have to wait for the buildd infrastructure and kernel builds first before we can seriously start something
[14:00] <persia> Should do : the default UI for the n8x0 is hildon-based.
[14:00] <ogra> as long as thats not there you will only end up with something like mojo for the moment
[14:01] <persia> Or you can get intel-based devices to fiddle and test the UI.
[14:01] <ogra> right
[14:01] <ogra> which is what we do
[14:02] <persia> apachelogger, Oh.  And there's a typo in my naming : *k*ubuntu-mobile for just tweaking :)
[14:02]  * apachelogger was already wondering :P
[14:03] <persia> Sorry.  Just missed a key (it would be more convenient to have gnome be gubuntu sometimes)
[14:03] <persia> So for the KDE 4.2 "mobile" desktop shell, "kubuntu-mobile" would be the sensible meta-package, and match what ogra did to GNOME.
[14:04] <persia> "kubuntu-mid" would be something based on Qtopia or similar efforts.  Essentially looking at the problem from two sides : either shrink the standard desktop, or enhance the embedded solution.
[14:06] <apachelogger> sounds sensible
[14:07] <persia> apachelogger, So I'm guessing "kubuntu-mobile" is the likely first set of stuff?  Any idea if anyone would be working on "kubuntu-mid"?
[14:08] <apachelogger> persia: we have a meeting in #kubuntu-devel at 18 UTC, mobile/mid is going to be a topic
[14:09] <persia> I'm in UTC+9.  Not sure if I can make it, but I'll try.
[14:09]  * apachelogger thinks kubuntu-mobile should be pretty easy to do, since the desktop shell automagically changes it containments based on the resolution
[14:09] <apachelogger> so it is just a matter of refining the kubuntu defaults and selecting sensible default packages
[14:09] <persia> I've been dreaming of switching my Qtopia box to kubuntu-mid for years.
[14:10] <persia> For -mobile, it should be fairly easy.  The big difference in ubuntu-mobile vs. ubuntu-desktop is the use of devilspie to get full-screen windows.  I presume there's something equivalent for KDE?
[14:11] <apachelogger> I think we can actually archive this by setting one option in kwin
[14:12] <persia> That's even better.  I presume you can see that somehow with a kubuntu-mobile-default-settings package?
[14:12] <persia> s/see/seed/
[14:13] <apachelogger> yes, I guess we could even make kubuntu-mobile-default-settings inherit from kubuntu-default-settings
[14:13] <ogra> the thing with mobile is that you need to make sure the theme is finger usable 
[14:13] <ogra> thats the main work i have done beyond changing the panel layout
[14:14] <persia> Yeah, but that's just a matter of adjusting the theme, which should also be easy.
[14:14] <ogra> well, i dont know how that kde shell thingie works
[14:14] <persia> Be nice to have Kubuntu available for all the various little stuff out there.
[14:14] <ogra> i.e. if you have 60% of your screen scattered with scrollbars that wont be any fun
[14:15] <ogra> i saw kde adding scrollbars for every element in the past if it didnt fit
[14:15] <ogra> so you end up with a scrollbar onion ;)
[14:15] <ogra> and a little app dot in the middle
[14:15] <apachelogger> I think there are people who would like that as well ;-)
[14:16] <ogra> such stuff needs to be workable 
[14:16] <apachelogger> *nod*
[14:16] <persia> There are, but surely we can set some sensible defaults.  My Zaurus (Qtopia) only adds scrollbars where it's useful.
[14:16] <apachelogger> but since all the KDE hackers got n810 devices I guess that is not going to be much of a problem ;-)
[14:16] <apachelogger> well, s/all/a lot/g
[14:17] <persia> I still think something Qtopia based is better for the n810, but that's probably just because I'm so used to it.
[14:34] <apachelogger> ogra, persia: mockup of a proposed containment http://www.notmart.org/misc/plasma-mid.png the lead plasma developer is currently not around, so I don't know if that is the actual targeted result 
[14:36] <persia> apachelogger, That looks lovely.  I want to try it now.
[14:36] <persia> I'm still partial to Qtopia, but some of my newer HW doesn't really need that light a footprint, and would be more impressive with soemthing like that.
[14:37] <apachelogger> well, Qt 4.5 (due in februrary IIRC) will have a lighter foortprint as well ;-)
[14:38] <apachelogger> partially because of the plasma-mid stuff
[14:40] <persia> Will that also make Kubuntu Desktop lighter and faster?
[14:42] <apachelogger> yes
[14:43] <persia> Cool!
[14:43] <apachelogger> I have been told plasma in KDE trunk is already a lot faster than in KDE 4.1.2
[14:43] <apachelogger> ...without Qt 4.5...
[14:45] <persia> That's excellent news.  My Qtopia box is 400MHz, 64MB RAM, 4G disk.  For early versions of KDE, that would be fine for the entire desktop, but not in the interim.  Getting back towards something smaller is a wonderful thing.
[15:37] <crevette> hello there
[15:37] <crevette> hey persia
[15:38] <persia> hey crevette 
[16:00] <emgent> hello
[16:00] <persia> hey emgent 
[16:01] <emgent> heya persia :)
[16:01] <persia> emgent, Did you happen to try Ubuntu Mobile on your flybook?
[16:02] <emgent> will do :)
[16:02] <persia> emgent, Well, only if you want :)
[16:03] <emgent> of course! this week i will try to test it :)
[16:03] <emgent> check your mail in monday
[16:04] <persia> Or just comment here.
[16:04] <emgent> okkay
[16:04] <persia> (unless I'm expecting something else in my mail)
[16:05] <lool> Is there a bug on the installability issues of lpia kernels?
[16:05] <StevenK> The kernel itself can be installed
[16:05] <StevenK> The headers can't
[16:05]  * emgent reading UM docs
[16:06] <persia> The makes the package set an issue, and probably breaks image builds.
[16:06] <emgent> ah nice.
[16:08] <StevenK> I suspect the installer is only fatality, currently
[16:11] <persia> Probably, but I get bothered by that :p
[16:12] <LjL> persia, uhm you're a qtopia user? i used OPIE a long time ago, and i'd still like using it... but last time i checked, it was such a mess, with no Debian packages of it in the repositories anymore, and legal disputes that wouldn't even let me know what site i should look at. do you know of a reasonably easy way to get an OPIE or Qtopia system running on i386?
[16:12] <persia> LjL, Not offhand, but I understand that the licensing is getting easier for Qtopia (dunno about opie).
[16:12] <persia> LjL, The thing is to concentrate on the individual applications, rather than the collections.
[16:14] <ogra> as maemo does 
[16:14] <ogra> they wont rebase ther desktop, but have the qtopia stack by default now, so qt devs can write apps as well
[16:15] <persia> Well, there's plenty of Qtopia projects out there, and lots of individual upstreams.  It's just a matter of someone wanting it enough to put it together.
[16:16] <persia> having appropriate form-factor hardware available that can run Ubuntu makes this an achievable project, whereas before it was mostly a waste of time.
[16:21] <LjL> dunno, i think there's plenty of old, low-resolution hardware that could benefit a lot from Qtopia or OPIE for users with no particularly great needs
[16:21] <LjL> i've installed Ubuntu on my mother's 800MHz with 128Mb, and it's honestly plain ridiculous
[16:22] <StevenK> I'd suggest Xubuntu for that use case
[16:22] <LjL> StevenK: i tend to disagree about that. it's not like the panel and desktop take up so much memory - i mean yes they do, but it's mostly just because of shared libraries that other programs will need *anyway*
[16:23] <LjL> so what use is Xubuntu unless you avoid using any GNOME or KDE programs on it like the plague
[16:23] <LjL> and if you avoid using them, you end up with an environment that's hardly suited for an average computer user
[16:24] <LjL> Qtopia/OPIE, on the other hand, was a relatively well-refined PDA-like environment with good, friendly (though often extremely simple) software available
[16:24] <LjL> at least it was like this last time i checked, which was years ago
[16:24] <persia> Hasn't changed that much.
[16:25] <LjL> what has changed is that there aren't Debian packages of it anymore
[16:25] <LjL> persia: also, the few screenshots i managed to find of current... OPIE? OPIE2? Qtopia? who knows with all this mess - looked very much geared to cellphones, contrary to what it used to be when PDA were the norm
[16:26] <persia> LjL, That's just what people are using for demo hardware, really.  No reason it shouldn't work for larger environments.
[16:27] <LjL> persia: no, but the interface really looked cellphone-like, with two soft-buttons on the bottom on the screen, things like that
[16:27] <LjL> of course that might all be very easily changeable, i just don't know since i couldn't manage to get anything installed
[16:28] <persia> It's pretty flexible.
[17:06] <crevette> bluetooth guy, obex-data-server 0.4 is out
[17:06] <crevette> guys
[17:07] <persia> crevette, intrepid is frozen.  Prepare it in a PPA, and we can push it to Jaunty in three or four weeks.
[17:07] <crevette> yeah
[17:08] <crevette> persia: API has changed, so no hurry
[17:08] <crevette> we need to wait that application have migrated
[17:09] <persia> Ah.  Yeah.  Of course, helping the applications migrate is probably a good thing, but I think there's plenty of bugs to hit in the next couple weeks before takling that.
[17:21] <NanoRobot> Hello, everyone. I spent some hours with trying to run video at via vx700 chip, but had no success. Can anybody try to help ?
[17:21] <persia> Which architecture?  Which flavour?
[17:21] <persia> Which video driver?
[17:25] <NanoRobot> persia: Hello) I've already talked to you several days ago ! SO, my device is UMPC it has a thuchscreen and LCD (1024x600).Proc: via c7,  Video(chipset): VX700. I had alredy installed UBUNTU-MOBILE on it with openChrom driver. Problem is : I can't run X on LCD.
[17:26] <NanoRobot> but X works ok on external monitor !
[17:27] <persia> That's exceedingly annoying, but unfortunately I don't have any good suggestions.  This is the oqo2?
[17:28] <NanoRobot> Don't know what is ogo2 .
[17:32] <persia> Oh, then that was someone eise with the c7 and openchrome :)
[17:32] <NanoRobot> Find oqo2 in google. No this is not oqo 2, but my device looks like oqo2 )
[17:32] <persia> Hardware is similar too, but I still don't know why the LCD doesn't work.
[17:33] <NanoRobot> i tried to install ubuntu , so it has the same problem.- "Unable to run X on LCD, Terminal works OK"
[17:35] <persia> Not surprising.  The differences between Ubuntu Mobile and Ubuntu Desktop are essentially cosmetic : nothing that would affect display support.
[17:36] <NanoRobot> I had also tried to install openSUSE 10.3 (with gnome 2.2)- and LCD works on it by default with 800x600 resolution. Maybe I should copy something like xorg.conf from there ? 
[17:36] <persia> Intrepid doesn't generally use xorg.conf, but you could try that.
[17:38] <NanoRobot> Hello again ) Had connection problem )
[17:38] <persia> You didn't miss anything :)
[17:39] <NanoRobot> ok. Thank you !
[17:59]  * lool waves and goes for dinner, might or not might be back tonight
[19:00] <NanoRobot> Can somebody say me something about VESA framebuffer ? Thanks in advance !
[19:01] <persia> NanoRobot, It recently changed from uvesafb to vesafb, and shouldn't be required for most installs.
[19:08] <NanoRobot> I 've just install openSUSE 10.3 (on this version i can see something on my LCD , instead of black screen on ubuntu-mobile) and look at harware information. So, there are VESA framebuffer (VIA CX700) and Display (CX700 M2 UniChrome PRO 2 Graphics). On my ubuntu installation I can't find anything about VESA, should it be installed by default ?
[19:12] <persia> It should be available by default, I'm not sure if it's installed.  In the recently concluded release meeting, it was suggested that most people wouldn't have any reason to use it, although you might be one who does (I don't know).
[19:14] <NanoRobot> I think that i don't need it, but i am not able to swich it off , i have not got this option in bios and i down't know how to do it by other way.
[19:19] <NanoRobot> -I found other ways on wiki.ubuntu. Thank you :)
[19:21] <NanoRobot> If i disable it, should it help ubuntu to boot not in balck screen ?
[19:21] <persia> It might.  It depends on how the device handles multiple things drawing to the framebuffer, but I'm really not familiar with the hardware.
[19:23] <NanoRobot> Ok, I will try. Hardware.. But I had a lot of help from you. Thanks !
[23:04] <blahblahx> i installed the ubuntu mobile package in hardy, hoping it would give me an ubuntu session. instead, it just installed the packages. what can i do to get an ubuntu mobile session in my xubuntu install?
[23:08] <persia> blahblahx, The ubuntu mobile released in hardy was essentially a work-in-progress, and certainly isn't suitable for use.
[23:09] <persia> Your choices are basically to use the Ubuntu MID Hardy installer (which reformats the hard drive without prompt or notification), or use intrepid.
[23:10] <persia> For intrepid, I believe you can cross-grade to Ubuntu Mobile (haven't tested this), but you'd want to reinstall for Ubuntu MID (nice GUI installer).
[23:10] <persia> Mind you, intrepid is still in beta, so there are bugs.
[23:23] <blahblahx> persia: i know its in early stages, but theres no way to get an ubuntu mobile session on a main ubuntu machine?
[23:47] <NanoRobot> tried to disable VESA and to enable it, - had no success. Device keeps to load in balck screen. :(