[00:22] <james_w> ScottK: did you fakesync screenlets?
[00:25] <james_w> I mean manually sync, don't I?
[00:26] <directhex> kitchensync?
[01:44] <csilk> Is there anyway to override the default entry for the maintainer name that dh_make generates?
[01:44] <csilk> I cant see a flag in dh_make --useage to do this
[02:00] <csilk> Anyone here?
[02:07] <ScottK> csilk: Just edit it in debian/control to what you want.
[02:07] <csilk> Yeah I did
[02:08] <csilk> I was just wondering if dh_make had semi-auto way of doing it
[02:09] <ScottK> Dunno.  Starting a fresh package from scratch is a rare event for me.
[02:09] <csilk> Ok, well it really doesnt matter now, doing it manually isn't a hassle, thanks
[02:10] <ajmitch> from what I can see, setting DEBFULLNAME should work
[02:55] <ScottK> bigon: Is your pending empathy upload bugfix only?
[03:28] <ScottK> superm1: What are the compatibility binaries in your pending bluez upload?
[03:31] <nxvl> ScottK: Are you going to UDS this time?
[03:31] <ScottK> nxvl: No.
[03:32] <nxvl> ScottK: why?
[03:32] <cody-somerville> because Canonical can't afford him ;]
[03:32] <cody-somerville> (inside joke)
[03:32] <nxvl> heh
[03:33] <ScottK> nxvl: It's a hard to justify another full week off work and I don't particularly like the new sponsorship model.  I think I've proven my ability to contribute adequately without messing with brainstorm.
[03:33] <nxvl> sounds fair
[03:33] <ajmitch> these newfangled new tools... why, kids in my day... :)
[03:33] <nxvl> and yes, i hate it too
[03:33] <nxvl> but, some people love it
[03:34] <nxvl> i get into the conclusion that is just needed to write the idea you have in branstorm and then just ask for sponsorship
[03:34] <ScottK> nxvl: They're welcome to love it, just don't make me using it a requirement for UDS.
[03:34] <ScottK> nxvl: Yes.  I decline to do that.
[03:35] <cody-somerville> It is far from a requirement for UDS IMHO that means very little.
[03:35] <nxvl> exactly what i thought :D
[03:35] <csilk> is czb appears where a date would usually appear, what does that mean?
[03:35] <ajmitch> ScottK: why do you dislike it?
[03:35] <ScottK> cody-somerville: It's a requirement for sponsorship.
[03:35] <ScottK> ajmitch: I think I've proven myself already.
[03:36] <csilk> n/m sorted
[03:36] <ajmitch> and brainstorm is about tracking ideas to discuss, not people
[03:36] <ScottK> Yes.  I think it's reasonably well established I can contribute good ideas without it.
[03:37] <cody-somerville> ScottK, If you don't like brainstorm and don't want to use it then I suggest asking for sponsorship if you desire it in the future (if the brainstorm model is ever used again).
[03:37] <ScottK> ajmitch: To me it's not substantially different than saying you can only get sponsored to UDS if you post ideas in Ubuntu Forums.
[03:37] <ajmitch> or the wiki, or the mailing list
[03:37] <ScottK> cody-somerville: There was only one process presented to the community.
[03:37] <ajmitch> it's just another tool
[03:38] <ScottK> Yes, but I don't particularly care for the voting and the arguing.
[03:39] <ajmitch> and they are not a required part of using brainstorm for UDS
[03:39] <ScottK> If I'm going to present ideas, I'd like it to be to a group of peers, not to end users.  I honestly don't care what they think.
[03:39] <ScottK> ajmitch: If I post my ideas there, I'll end up defending them.
[03:39] <ScottK> I'd just rather stay away.
[03:40] <cody-somerville> ScottK, Do you think it would have been wise to say "Oh, and if you don't like brainstorm then feel free to just flood our mailboxes like usual."?
[03:41] <nxvl> heh
[03:41] <ScottK> cody-somerville: Or perhaps "the traditional sponsorship model is still an option".
[03:41] <nxvl> i don't think there is a way to flood jono's jcastro's or daniels mailboxes
[03:41] <ScottK> Or maybe looking at who came last time and ask.
[03:41] <nxvl> they just get to much e-mail daily
[03:41] <cody-somerville> What /was/ the traditional model?
[03:41] <nxvl> ScottK: the traditional model is canonical's internal
[03:42] <ajmitch> cody-somerville: people are silently invited
[03:42] <nxvl> cody-somerville: canonical employees recommending people
[03:42] <cody-somerville> Right
[03:42] <ScottK> From my perspective it was talk to the relevant team leads.
[03:42] <ScottK> It sort of worked for me.  I asked too late for Boston, but it was good for Prague.
[03:43]  * ajmitch has had nothing to contribute to UDS lately
[03:43] <nxvl> ScottK: yeah, but that model was to canonical driven, as in invite the people that will make us accomplish our goals, which might be different from community ones
[03:44] <nxvl> Prague was fun
[03:44] <cody-somerville> Yes Prague was.
[03:44] <ajmitch> nxvl: I think it was fair, given that canonical is paying
[03:44] <ScottK> nxvl: Yes, but brainstorm is end user driven.  I don't see it being particularly relevant for community developers.
[03:44] <nxvl> ajmitch: mmm, agreed
[03:44] <ajmitch> others were free to attend if they were sponsored by other companies or organisations
[03:44] <ScottK> Yes.  I paid for myself to go to part of Boston.
[03:44] <cody-somerville> Folks: The original model was names pulled out of a hat
[03:45] <nxvl> cody-somerville: no exactly
[03:45] <ajmitch> cody-somerville: not quite so random, but close enough
[03:45] <persia> ajmitch, As far as I've heard, it's still the case that anyone who wants to show up is welcome.
[03:45] <ajmitch> persia: I'd expect that to still be true :)
[03:46] <ajmitch> I'd hope that continues as more companies become involved with ubuntu & can sponsor their developers to go
[03:46] <ajmitch> rather than it being totally canonical
[03:46]  * ScottK looks around for one of these companies.
[03:46] <persia> Certainly.  I'd like to see more of an ecosystem.
[03:46] <ajmitch> ScottK: google, for one
[03:47] <nxvl> need to go
[03:47] <nxvl> read you guys later
[03:47] <ajmitch> last time it was at mt view there were a number of google developers around
[03:47] <Hobbsee> ugh, trolls
[03:47] <ajmitch> heh
[03:47] <ajmitch> hi Hobbsee :)
[03:47] <cody-somerville> \o/
[03:47]  * ajmitch isn't trolling much
[03:47] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Where?
[03:48] <Hobbsee> ScottK: here, earlier
[03:48] <ScottK> Ah.
[03:49] <cody-somerville> A lot of companies sponsor their developers to go
[03:49] <ajmitch> several hours ago
[03:49] <ScottK> cody-somerville: Yes.  One of the problems with being an independent.
[03:49] <csilk> Is there are more complete set of documentation on the creation etc of .desktop files onther than the wiki?
[03:49] <csilk> *other
[03:50] <nhandler> csilk: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/
[03:50] <csilk> thanks
[03:53] <Hobbsee> ScottK: i think it's moer just they want the brainstorm to be abused by sticking developer-related ideas on it, that really don't fit the criteria
[03:53] <Hobbsee> no great problem with that, though
[03:53] <lifeless> fwiw, I've just dropped a mail to jono/dholbach relating this issue
[03:54] <ScottK> lifeless: Oh?
[03:54] <persia> lifeless, Isn't jorge handling UDS this time?
[03:54] <lifeless> persia: dunno; I was thinking 'scottk is a ubuntu dev' and thats why I cc'd dholbach
[03:55] <lifeless> ScottK: your position makes sense to me, (whether its perception or reality) that having to put things on brainstorm to be sponsored doesn't make sense
[03:55] <ScottK> lifeless: Thanks.
[03:56] <Hobbsee> ScottK, lifeless: i mean, if canonical says "abuse the bugtracker for this", then people will do it.    It just doesn't seem like a terribly sensible thing to say in teh first place.
[03:56] <lifeless> I certainly think that folk that do put interesting ideas on brainstorm that are not known from other sources should be sponsored
[03:57] <ScottK> Right.  If it had been the usual way plus this new one, I thik that would have made sense.
[03:57] <persia> I'd rather see more flexible subsidies.  Some of us mostly need subsidy for lodging, some for travel, some for neither.  The perception that attendance is related to subsidy is one of the things that helps discourage other groups from sending people, or people attending on their own accord.
[03:58] <lifeless> anyhow
[03:58] <lifeless> I don't have time right now to dive deep in; but it seemed like something out of whack that the folk coordinating uds should know of
[03:58] <lifeless> so I dropped a mail of to two such folk
[03:58] <lifeless> *off*
[03:59] <lifeless> enough said :>
[03:59] <Hobbsee> persia: that's a given option, and has been there for a while, iir
[04:00] <Hobbsee> c
[04:01] <persia> Hobbsee, Well, sorta.  The last announcement didn't have nearly as much emphasis on hauling oneself somewhere as did e.g. the UDU announcement.  Also, while I don't pretend to understand the details, I have the impression that there is only full funding or none available.
[04:01] <Hobbsee> persia: right, well, the latter part is false - it asks you that in the sponsorship app, towards teh end.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> as in, "tick which ones you need sponsorship for: "
  <accomodation>, then asks some other questions
[04:02] <persia> Cool.  That's an improvement.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> afaik, various people only did get sponsorship for one or the other previously, after discussing it with (i presume) claire.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> announcements:  agree, it's not clear
[04:30] <superm1> ScottK, these are hidd, dund, pand
[04:30] <superm1> ScottK, for people that can't pair with the GUI
[04:30] <ScottK> superm1: They don't help the KDE problem then?
[04:30] <superm1> ScottK, they provide a possible solution people can use in KDE, but don't help the main KDE problem
[04:31] <coppro> what is the KDE problem?
[04:31] <coppro> since I'm having a KDE-related problem right now...
[04:31] <superm1> coppro, KDE doesn't have BlueZ 4.x support
[04:31] <ScottK> coppro: The KDE problem we're discussing is Bluetooth related.
[04:31] <coppro> oh
[04:31] <persia> superm1, Do you happen to know why pan0 appears on non-bluetooth capable machines?
[04:31] <coppro> mine is upgrade-related
[04:32] <superm1> persia, I don't actually have non-bluetooth capable machines at all...
[04:32] <superm1> persia, so this is the first i'm hearing of it
[04:32] <ScottK> superm1: I'd have said the problem is that Ubuntu updated to Bluez 4.x without knowing if it affected Kubuntu, but whatever.
[04:32] <persia> superm1, Yeah, that's part of why I didn't discover it until yesterday :)
[04:32] <ScottK> coppro: Try #kubuntu-kde4
[04:32] <superm1> persia, if you stop bluetoothd, does it go away?
[04:32] <persia> ScottK, There's more to it than that.
[04:32] <superm1> persia, or if you rmmod btusb ?
[04:33] <ScottK> persia: There is not.
[04:33] <coppro> ScottK: yeah, I figured it out
[04:33] <coppro> I just got scared shitless when I saw my upgrade was removing all my precious KDE4 packages
[04:33] <persia> ScottK, Well, OK.  Bluetooth keyboards didn't work in KDE before the update either, even with the deprecated hidd.
[04:33] <coppro> until I investigated and found they were renamed to replace the kde3 packages
[04:33] <ScottK> persia: If it'd been tested and it had been known to break KDE and it was decided it was needful to do so, then I'd have actually be OK with that.
[04:34] <persia> ScottK, That makes sense, and I don't mean to say that what happened was a good thing, I just don't think that the social breakdown was the only problem.
[04:35] <superm1> persia, something else that I've noticed, if your hardware supports a bluetooth power switch, you can turn it off on the GUI, but never turn it back on...
[04:35] <superm1> which is a bit of a usability misfortune
[04:35] <superm1> or oversight is probably a better term
[04:36] <ScottK> persia: Certainly, but it's sufficient in my opinion and it's not the only one this cycle.  We had to seed the Gnome network manager applet for a while because network-manager was updated and totally broke Knetworkmanager
[04:36] <persia> superm1, Indeed.  /etc/init.d/bluetooth should probably check for the existence of a bluetooth adaptor.
[04:36] <persia> ScottK, Right.  There were several social failures, and they were particularly bad, and shouldn't have happened.  Steps should be taken to avoid them in the future.
[04:37] <superm1> persia, not necessarily
[04:37] <persia> On the other hand, in the specific case of bluetooth, there are also other technical issues involved (I have no idea about network manager)
[04:37] <superm1> persia, you break USB dongles then
[04:37] <ScottK> persia: Well the response so far seems to be along the lines of shrug, you're a derivative, get over it.
[04:37] <persia> superm1, Ah, because there's no way to start up on insertion.  Hrm.  Something to think about for Jaunty then.
[04:37] <superm1> persia, I mean you can have udev rules I suppose to kickstart bluetoothd
[04:38] <persia> ScottK, That's the wrong response.  Ubuntu Desktop isn't a magic flavour, and shouldn't get a special bonus.
[04:38] <ScottK> persia: I agree.
[04:38] <ScottK> I do hope that some of those going to UDS can work on a solution to this problem.
[04:38] <persia> superm1, Right, but it's one thing to ask for a check to be added to an init script for intrepid, it's another thing to introduce a udev hook.  Not enough time to test.
[04:39] <superm1> persia, oh of course, I wasn't meaning as a solution now
[04:39] <persia> ScottK, Although the flavours I work with all benefited in the case of bluetooth, I've a fairly strong interest in finding ways to make sure that Ubuntu Desktop isn't special.
[04:39] <superm1> persia, but in the case about pan0, it does appear that if you stop bluetoothd it goes away
[04:40] <persia> That's one of the reasons that I am behind ArchiveReorganisation : it clearly delineates Desktop from Core, so when things touch Core, it's clear they need to be tested with all the flavours.
[04:40] <Hobbsee> ah yes, tha'ts the lot of mail i need to read.
[04:40] <persia> superm1, Yep.  That was the "Indeed" above.
[04:40] <Hobbsee> persia: i presume there will be a UDS session on that, or something?
[04:41] <persia> Hobbsee, Actually, I hope there *won't* be a session about ArchiveReorganisation.  There was one in Prague.  A spec has been drafted.  A majority of Tech Board members attended the session, and have reviewed the draft without requesting changes.  It only awaits implementation.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> persia: sorry, what i actually *meant* to ask was more a session on the deliniation of core and desktop, and how that relates to uploads which break derivatives, etc.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> but iguess that's more of a release team thing
[04:42] <superm1> persia, well with things like this, another problem that isn't addressed then, the core gnome and kde folk don't necessarily work on the same features with other external applications at the same time.  this will continue to come up over and over.  the only granularity that will be able to be provided is holding back one or the other while the other catches up
[04:42] <persia> superm1, Add Hildon and Xfce to the list, and I agree with you.
[04:43] <ajmitch> persia: a number of things like that get delayed
[04:44] <superm1> persia, even there i'd not agree with that statement.  xfce is gtk based, and doesn't have a fair deal of external applications that are specific to it and would break.  hildon, i'm not positive
[04:44] <ajmitch> like the 2-year-old spec about the tech board
[04:44] <persia> ajmitch, Which one is that?
[04:45] <ajmitch> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/techboard-2006
[04:45] <persia> superm1, Hrm?  Just because hildon and xfce are gtk+ based doesn't mean things don't break, or that it's not worth discussion.
[04:45] <ajmitch> persia: namely that the TB has been overdue on a new election for 2 years
[04:46] <persia> superm1, It's precisely the lack of testing for such things that makes it hard on the flavours, which is bad.
[04:46] <superm1> persia, i'm saying things won't break in the same fashion that they have for network manager and bluez.  but I understand the point you are getting at
[04:46] <persia> ajmitch, Ah, that.  I understand there will be an election soonish : at least candidates have been evaluated.
[04:47] <persia> superm1, Well, except that the reason that bluez didn't break for hildon was because I tested it, and applied a patch to the source.
[04:49] <persia> superm1, Mind you, I'm not complaining about this case, as the flavours I worked on improved.  I have sympathy for Kubuntu, and can well imagine a case where some change would break something.  As a general rule, I think clearer delineation of core from flavour (with Ubuntu Desktop as just another flavour) is of benefit to all.
[04:50] <ScottK> superm1: Specifically in the case of bluetooth it was a major unplanned upgrade and so the fact that other DE's weren't working on the feature SHOULD had held Gnome back or at least it should have been considered.
[04:51] <StevenK> The hell it was unplanned
[04:51] <ScottK> StevenK: Where's the approved spec?
[04:51] <persia> ScottK, I disagree.  I know that it was tested for gnome, hildon, and xfce.  I know there was email to kubuntu-devel that went unanswered.
[04:52] <ScottK> It was a reactive fix to deal with problems that came up during development.
[04:52] <ScottK> persia: Said mail had no deadlines and there was no announcement that an upload was immiment.
[04:52] <StevenK> ScottK: Just because it didn't have a spec doesn't mean it was unplanned
[04:52] <ScottK> persia: I caused that mail to be sent because I discussed it with superm1 and I was suprised by the upload.
[04:53] <ScottK> StevenK: It was a reaction to problems, not something planned for this release.
[04:53] <persia> ScottK, Understood.  It's just that nobody but Kubuntu ignored it.  I have sympathy for the situation, I'd like to see the social issues resolved.  I don't think that the Kubuntu response to the specific case of bluetooth is balanced.  To the larger issues, the response makes more sense.
[04:54] <ScottK> persia: If the mail had said "and we need it tested by" or there had been a followup that said "We need to know one way or the other soon" I'd agree.
[04:56] <ScottK> It was on my TODO and if I'd know the deadline it'd have been higher.
[04:59] <Hobbsee> ScottK: if it doesn't say, it probably needs to be tested asap.
[04:59] <Hobbsee> ScottK: that's the normal idea, post-FF.
[05:00] <ScottK> Yes, well there's lots of ASAP stuff.
[05:00] <Hobbsee> and of coruse it didn't say a date, as it was asking for feedback on the new package, before getting it uploaded, which may well have delayed the upload date.
[05:01] <ScottK> Right, which is why I added the alternative of a followup that said, "Hey, we're about to pull the trigger on this."
[05:02] <Hobbsee> ScottK:
[05:02] <Hobbsee> Provided nothing detrimental comes up, these packages should ideally be
[05:02] <Hobbsee> uploaded to Intrepid shortly after beta.
[05:02] <Hobbsee> when were they uploaded?
[05:02] <ScottK> I don't recall.
[05:02]  * ajmitch has intrepid-changes open
[05:02] <StevenK> The bluez source package was published 2008-10-08
[05:03] <ajmitch> and StevenK is quicker
[05:03] <Hobbsee> which would be...shortly after beta.
[05:03] <StevenK> And I used LP itself
[05:03] <ScottK> You must have the secret Canonical high speed version.
[05:05] <Hobbsee> ScottK: so, seeing as the mail did have a planned-for-upload deadline (being shortly after beta), i think that persia's right.
[05:05]  * ajmitch heads off for a bit
[05:06] <Hobbsee> there was no reply from a member of the kubuntu team, apparently no one tested it, and no one noticed it broke for a while.
[05:08] <Hobbsee> of course, it probably *would* have held gnome back, if there had actually been a kubuntu person who tested it, and replied that it didn't work.
[05:08] <Hobbsee> so...
[05:09] <StevenK> Let me pick up the mantle. "Rah, rah, no spec, unplanned, Kubuntu gets it again, rah, rah". Is that about it?
[05:09] <ScottK> Hobbsee: The bugs were filed within 24 hours of the upgrade
[05:09] <Hobbsee> ScottK: after it was uploaded ot the main archive?
[05:09] <ScottK> Yes
[05:10] <Hobbsee> so, good, people did test it from there.
[05:10] <ScottK> So "no one noticed it broke for a while" was the same day.
[05:11] <Hobbsee> ScottK: that related to the "no one tested it" part from the ppa
[05:11] <ScottK> Right.  Well if the PPA delivered secure packages then I wouldn't have needed to find the time to build it as well as test it.
[05:11] <ScottK> That's, at least in my case, a large part of why it didn't get done.
[05:12] <Hobbsee> you're not the only kubuntu person.  If you could'nt do it, why not email the list / throw it up in #Kubuntu-devel, etc, saying "someone needs to test this before beta, who's going to do it?" or something.
[05:12] <ScottK> Hobbsee:
[05:12] <ScottK> Hobbsee: That was done.
[05:12] <ScottK> This has been a busy release for Kubuntu and we just didn't have time.
[05:12] <Hobbsee> so it just wasn't followed through quickly enough?
[05:13] <ScottK> Yes.
[05:13] <persia> Even just reporting that people were busy and that more time was required would probably have delayed the upload.
[05:13] <Hobbsee> persia: that's waht I would have thought.  Silence is usually regarded as assent.
[05:14] <ScottK> persia: I doubt it.  The response to complaints has been pretty negative.
[05:14] <Hobbsee> ScottK: mailing list, or it didn't happen.  Not everyone reads irc, all the time.
[05:14] <persia> ScottK, The difference is that it would have been proactive rather than reactive.  No plan has been offered for a solution, just complaints.
[05:15] <Hobbsee> (which is what part of my session at UDS will include, incidently)
[05:15] <persia> Had it been *before* the upload, when invited, it's an easy thing to not upload for a few days.
[05:15] <persia> Since most of the people involved in the transition were slytherin, crevette, superm1, StevenK, and myself, it's not like there was a huge push from somewhere overriding all opposition.
[05:17] <ScottK> Well it's been one thing after another.
[05:17] <persia> Like I said before, I have sympathy for the social issue.  I have no sympathy for something being broken because nobody either looked at it, or said they needed more time to look at it.
[05:17] <ScottK> This was the last.
[05:17] <persia> Understood.  I don't know the specifics of the others.  They may not have involved the same requests for feedback,.
[05:17]  * Hobbsee thought the translation borkage was the last :P
[05:17] <ScottK> The wiki got upgraded (now fixed) to only work with Firefox (which is not installed by default in Kubuntu)
[05:17] <ScottK> Hobbsee: True.
[05:18] <Hobbsee> ScottK: which is surely a concern you'll need to take up with canonical IS?
[05:18] <Hobbsee> who are different people to this discussion?
[05:18] <persia> Hobbsee, The bluetooth one was the one that broke patience.  Translations are just more annoyance.
[05:18] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I tend to catagorize that under 'dangers of using proprietary systems for FOSS development"
[05:18] <ScottK> persia: Not really.  There's been some discussion of there not being a Kubuntu release if it's not fixed.
[05:18] <ScottK> asac broke KNetworkManager.
[05:18] <Hobbsee> persia: you clearly didn't see the discussions over the weekend, but yes
[05:19] <ScottK> So there's been a reasonably steady stream of lack of consideration.
[05:19] <persia> Hobbsee, I saw some stuff, but nothing as extreme as with bluetooth.  I think the anger is continued, rather than erupting again.
[05:20] <StevenK> So, three or four seperate issues is a "reasonably steady stream of lack of consideration" ?
[05:21] <ScottK> StevenK: It's been roughly one major issue a month for the last three or four.
[05:21] <StevenK> That doesn't strike me as a reasonably steady stream, that strikes me as mountains out of molehills
[05:22] <ScottK> StevenK: How many times did it go the other way in that time?
[05:23] <StevenK> Tit for tat doesn't seem like a good response
[05:24] <ScottK> StevenK: I agree.  That's not my point.  My point is that one DE or the focus on one DE is breaking another one and it's all one way.
[05:24] <csilk> is Tree MendUs a bot or something, most of his 700 + bug reports have been package requests!
[05:25] <Hobbsee> csilk: probably a bot or a clueless user.
[05:25] <csilk> It's pretty spammy when you think about it
[05:26] <persia> especially because some of them are dupes.
[05:26] <Hobbsee> csilk: it is.  But clueless users seem notto be encouraged to think.
[05:26] <StevenK> ScottK: But the intent isn't malice, it's forgetfulness or in bluez's case, lack of testing
[05:26] <ScottK> StevenK: I agree.  It's not malice.  I think it's lack of consideration.
[05:27] <Hobbsee> ScottK: what you're actually complaining about, and apparently proposing, is that whoever uploads a new core package (core being 'effects multiple DE's'), should test on all possible DE's themselves, because the individual DE's apparently can't be trusted to test provided packages on their own DE, in the given time.  That's simply not scalable (what if there were 10?  20?)
[05:27] <StevenK> ScottK: I disagree in the bluez case -- we busted our gut getting a transistion plan worked out, and no one from Kubuntu said "Boo" until after we uploaded
[05:27] <csilk> Hobbsee, a large amount of his requests have been marked as incomplete, he likes asking for backports of software that isnt packaged yet -_-
[05:28] <persia> And we asked for someone to give feedback.  And people from *every* other flavour tested.
[05:28] <Hobbsee> csilk: my sympathies.  Personally, I think calling up and yelling at him on the phone may be a good solution.  But i don't know of anything "official" you can do about it - even though i think it's not a good idea.
[05:28] <Hobbsee> csilk: unfortunately, strangling is still against the CoC ;)
[05:28] <StevenK> ScottK: So I don't think we can told it's our "lack of consideration"
[05:28] <StevenK> s/can/can be/
[05:29] <ScottK> The only reason there was even a request was because I suggested it.
[05:29] <Hobbsee> ScottK: I do think, on this issue, that people should have to present their package in a PPA, so that all DE's can test, and are sure that they're testing the same thing.  In this case, they've done it.  In the network manager case, i'm not sure they did.
[05:29] <ScottK> StevenK: I'd probably buy that if it was the only case recently.
[05:30] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Modulo PPAs being suitable from a security perspective, sure.
[05:30] <persia> ScottK, Why assume that those who worked on bluetooth have any relation to anything else?
[05:30] <StevenK> ScottK: A completly different situation, and different group of people, and you're going to tar us with the same brush?
[05:31] <StevenK> ScottK: I think you need to put the torch and pitchfork down
[05:31] <persia> ScottK, If you're saying there is a social issue that flavours should work more closely together, I can support you.  If you are saying that kubuntu is somehow special, and everyone hates it, including me, I have to disagree.
[05:31] <ScottK> Perhaps.
[05:31] <Hobbsee> ScottK: but what you're proposing is either a) blocking the entire distro, because one DE (out of however many) didn't respond, or b) the person who wants to push the change has to test every single DE,some of which may be on specific hardware.  I count both of these as unfeasible.  Do you have a feasible solution?
[05:31] <ScottK> I will say that post-upload, superm1 has been bending over backwards to help out and that's much appreciated.
[05:32] <Hobbsee> ScottK: (this is in the general case, without listing specific DEs.  Maybe -studio will want to do some large change, and have to do something like this, for everywhere else, as well)
[05:32] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I think that post FF, it is up to the person proposing the change to fully test it.
[05:32] <ScottK> I do not think that's unreasonable.
[05:32] <Hobbsee> ScottK: and in 5 years, if we have 20 DEs, is that still reasonable?
[05:32] <ScottK> Pre-FF, it's different.
[05:33] <Hobbsee> (And  how many remixes?)
[05:33] <persia> remixes don't count.
[05:33] <Hobbsee> persia: was thinking of the ones who work closely - or does -studio and such not count as a remix?
[05:33] <ScottK> If it's 20 DEs then planning is REALLY important and you REALLY need to get all that stuff done before FF.
[05:33] <ScottK> Hobbsee: No.  They aren't remixes.
[05:33] <persia> I think that the flavours have an inherent responsibility to keep track of what is happening throughout the distro, and make sure they are involved in any decision that affect them.
[05:33] <StevenK> persia: +1
[05:34]  * Hobbsee agrees with persia, but notes it goes the other way too (people must provide testing packages, must notify the various areas about the existance of them, what they effect, and when they're planned for upload)
[05:34] <ScottK> I don't think "I can break you as bad as I want as long as I gave you a little warning" is a good policy.
[05:34] <persia> Hobbsee, Official flavours are (alphabetically) Edubuntu, Kubuntu, Mythbuntu, Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu MID, Ubuntu Mobile, Ubuntu Server, Ubuntu Studio, and Xubuntu.
[05:35] <Hobbsee> persia: right.  so tha'ts 9 now, not 20.
[05:35] <ScottK> persia: I thought Edbuntu wasn't a separate flavor anymore?
[05:35] <persia> ScottK, I think it's great policy, as long as we encourage cooperation.  I trust other developers not to break my stuff too badly, and to help when something goes wrong.  Most of the time that works.
[05:35] <Hobbsee> So even in the current case, how feasible is it for someone to actually go and test 9 completely different DE's, for their packages, and pick up any corner cases that come about?
[05:36] <persia> ScottK, It is.  I don't think Canonical supports it directly, but there's a number of people keeping it alive.
[05:36] <StevenK> ScottK: So, in a recent case that happened to -mid. doko uploaded a new OpenJDK that removed icedtea-gcjwebplugin, and replaced with a new package. This made ubuntu-mid uninstallable due to the package not existing. Did I grab my torch and pitchfork and go after doko for no notice? No, I fixed the seed, and moved on. It happens, deal with it.
[05:36] <persia> Hobbsee, In practice, there are only 5 DEs.
[05:36] <ScottK> I thought it was a specialized metapackage for the Gnome and KDE varieties and not a separate image.
[05:37] <Hobbsee> persia: sure, but there are specific packages that can change how things owrk, etc.  ie, if different defaults are used, bugs may be exposed that otherwise wouldn't be, etc.
[05:37] <persia> ScottK, Last I heard, there were still discussions about whether images would be created.
[05:37] <ScottK> StevenK: Yes.  For small things like that, certainly.
[05:37] <ScottK> persia: OK.
[05:38] <persia> Hobbsee, Certainly.  Some of that is exceedingly annoying, but we work around it.  Unfortunately, no gstreamer-based app works well for Studio, although it uses GNOME as a DE, in part because of one of those issues.
[05:38] <Hobbsee> persia: ouch.
[05:38] <persia> ScottK, If you want a real answer, I think you need to talk to stgraber or LaserJock
[05:38] <Hobbsee> persia: do they run around crying 'black headed step child'?
[05:38] <ScottK> persia: Right.
[05:38] <persia> Hobbsee, Yeah.  I think we can fix it for 9.04, but it started with 7.10.
[05:39] <ScottK> Hobbsee: There was more than a little screaming about the kernel just to .27
[05:39] <persia> Hobbsee, No, we suffer.  I could tell you stories about the kernel if you like ...
[05:39] <ScottK> just/jump
[05:39] <Hobbsee> persia: yeah, i saw them...
[05:39] <persia> Yeah.  The kernel was enough to push Studio nearly to the edge, but I think it's nearly solved.
[05:41] <persia> Mind you, the solution was to work closely with upstream, and test aggressively within the dev team, rather than to continue to complain.
[05:42] <ScottK> Yes, well there isn't a lot I can do to help fix bluetooth.
[05:43] <StevenK> Oh, I know. Let's go back to BlueZ 3
[05:43] <persia> ScottK, Not a lot I could do to fix the kernel either.  Mostly I tested dev snapshots, and asked for more testers, and pushed the FFe, and tried to help work with upstream.
[05:43] <ScottK> I guess it's all in my head and Jono is right. http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1113
[05:43] <ScottK> There's only two people who work on Gnome and one on KDE and so there's no difference at all really in how Kubuntu gets treated and it's all in my head.
[05:44] <Hobbsee> imo, kubuntu needs to pull their weight, in testing things, or run the risks of not doing so.
[05:44] <Hobbsee> and here, they didn't pull their weight, and they got bitten for it.
[05:45] <StevenK> But it's our fault for not installing Kubuntu
[05:45] <ScottK> Well when I upload clamav I don't test just the KDE front end.
[05:46] <ScottK> I guess I should just save some effort since I really just need to write a mail.
[05:47] <Hobbsee> you could, if you chose.
[05:47] <persia> ScottK, I don't think jono is entirely right : both Ubuntu Desktop and Kubuntu have many more developers than he lists.
[05:47] <Hobbsee> hope you have been testing it on all 5 DEs, too.
[05:47] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I hear I'm being ridiculous to expect others to do similarly.
[05:48] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I test all the GUIs we have packages.
[05:48] <ScottK> packages/packaged.
[05:49] <Hobbsee> ScottK: it's certainly your choice to do so, if you've got the time.  However, the option is, for those of us who don't have the time (or bandwidth), is todo what was donein the bluez case.
[05:49] <dholbach> good morning
[05:49] <persia> ScottK, You're not being ridiculous, it's that you're beating a dead horse.  There is a social issue.  It should be fixed.  Testing is good.  Requiring everyone to test every change in every environment is a bit much.
[05:49] <Hobbsee> ScottK: FYI, some of us *can't* test the way you do, due to stuff like bandwidth limitations.
[05:49] <ScottK> persia: What I'm hearing is that it's all Kubuntu's fault and there is no issue.
[05:50] <Hobbsee> (but, great on you for doing it the way you are!)
[05:50] <Hobbsee> morning dholbach
[05:50] <Hobbsee> ScottK: then perhaps you need to reread.
[05:50] <Hobbsee> (a lot of it's kubuntu's fault.  not all of it).
[05:51] <Hobbsee> OTOH, is there a lot of point pointing out faults, if it doesn't get changed?
[05:51] <persia> ScottK, At least that's not what I'm trying to say, so if you see that, something is wrong.  I don't have sympathy for not responding to a request for testing.  I do have sympathy for things breaking.  If you don't want to test other front-ends, and you find a way that helps them work, that's fine.  Deciding not to test because someone else didn't test is exactly the wrong behaviour pattern.
[05:53] <persia> For bluetooth, I tested it in two operating environments for three flavours.  I also purchased some new devices so I could better test some features.  Should I not have done that?  When doing that, should I be berated that I didn't test?  I didn't test everything because I was under the impression that others were testing other things.
[05:53] <dholbach> hi Hobbsee
[05:53] <ScottK> OTOH, I've gotten more done tonight on T&S than I have in a while.
[05:54] <StevenK> I don't think flaming is part of T&S
[05:54] <Hobbsee> T&S?
[05:54] <persia> StevenK, It's new for lenny
[05:55] <ScottK> StevenK: No, it's not a formal requirement.
[05:55] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Tasks and Skills for Debian NM.
[05:55]  * StevenK needn't point ScottK at one of his e-mail addresses
[05:55] <Hobbsee> ahh
[05:56] <Hobbsee> ScottK: i doubt they'll be much better.
[05:56] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Not better, just different.  Not planning on going anywhere, but the frustration is motivational.
[06:26] <dholbach> highvoltage: I uploaded the last video to videos.ubuntu.com/motuvideos now
[06:28]  * ajmitch needs faster computer - upgrading to intrepid is taking an age
[06:34] <csilk> dholbach,  I notice on your video you don't really mention .desktop files, any reason for this?
[06:35] <dholbach> csilk: there are a lot of things I don't mention - talking specifically about .desktop files: I believe they are an upstream thing and should be modified and extended there :)
[06:36] <csilk> dholbach,  yeah I'd agree with you when you say they are/should be an upstream thing, but sometimes we get packages requests where the upstream has no package and they aren't willing to have anything to do with packaging
[06:36] <dholbach> these videos try to give an introduction, an overview
[06:37] <dholbach> for example I'm not talking about Makefiles a lot, although they are important for packages and package building as well
[06:37] <ajmitch> .desktop files aren't really packaging related in a sense, they're just general UI integration
[06:37] <csilk> Yeah I understand it's not possible to talk about everything
[06:38] <csilk> I'm really having difficulty finding any useful information onthe creaation and manahement of .desktop files at the moment that's why I ask
[06:38] <dholbach> if somebody wants to do a video about .desktop files (I'm not sure I know a lot about them), that'd be great
[06:39] <dholbach> but I'd hope whoever did this video would place a lot of importance on working with upstream for those .desktop files
[06:39] <dholbach> because only if they are upstream, we get proper translations, etc
[06:39] <dholbach> (and don't patch Ubuntu packages so much with .desktop changes)
[06:40] <csilk> If we are presented with a package request and the upstream only provides source it is the packager that is supposed to sort the desktop file isn't it?
[06:40] <dholbach> if there's no .desktop file, yeah that'd be nice - but also nice to directly forward it to upstream, so they can add translations and integration into the build system
[06:42] <csilk> Ok, I've just packaged an application that came as source, so should I forward this to upstream then?
[06:42] <dholbach> I think it'd be great to just write a quick mail saying: here's a .desktop file I wrote for your application, hope you include it :)
[06:43] <dholbach> or use their bug tracker or whatever else is available
[06:45] <csilk> This is where it get's difficult for first time contributors, procedures not being documentated
[06:45] <dholbach> especially if you're going to help maintaining the package in Ubuntu, upstream is going to be happy if you introduce yourself and say "oh by the way, here's a quick patch I wrote" :)
[06:45] <csilk> *documented
[06:46] <dholbach> I agree... it's a bit like detective work because a lot of bug trackers are different, web sites work differently and some upstreams have different expectations than others, but as long as you have people you can talk to, it's really not that bad
[06:47] <csilk> Yeah I guess
[06:48] <csilk> Well. this package is pretty much done, I'm just not sure how to handle desktops files, menu icons and man pages
[06:48] <csilk> and making them all work accross kde, xfce and gnome
[06:49] <dholbach> just take a look at the packaging of similar packages
[06:52] <csilk> will do
[06:52] <dholbach> rock and roll
[06:55] <highvoltage> dholbach: thank you very much!
[06:55] <dholbach> highvoltage: anytime
[07:57] <csilk> is this a virtual package http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/libgtkglext1 ?
[08:07] <csilk> anyone around?
[08:10] <Burgundavia> csilk: yep
[08:10] <csilk> is this a virtual package http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/libgtkglext1 ?
[08:10] <csilk> because pbuilder keeps telling me it is
[08:11] <csilk> and I can't find any reference to the fatc it's virtual
[08:11] <csilk> *faact
[08:11] <Burgundavia> I have no idea, sorry
[08:12] <csilk> No worries, I'm about to call it a day. I spent the whole day trying to get this package working with no luck, i'll have to leave it till next week
[08:27] <emgent> morning people
[08:27] <csilk> meh
[08:28] <csilk> ember, you ever use pbuilder?
[08:29] <csilk> emgent, ^
[08:30] <soren> csilk: No, it's not a virtual package.
[08:30] <soren> csilk: Virtual packages are packages that don't actually exist, but are "provided" by other packages.
[08:31] <soren> csilk: Like for instance mail-transport-agent. Each of the MTA's we have in the archive have a "Provides: mail-transport-agent" header.
[08:31] <csilk> That package is listed as a dependency required for comilation though
[08:31] <csilk> *compilation
[08:32] <soren> That way, any package that simply needs an MTA can just depend on "mail-transport-agent", and any of the MTA's will fulfill this dependency.
[08:32] <csilk> so how do i include libgtkglext1 then>
[08:32] <csilk> ?
[08:32] <soren> "include"?
[08:32] <csilk> sorry, i've been up about 24 hors now
[08:32] <csilk> *hours
[08:33] <csilk> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), libgtk2.0-0, libgtkglext1
[08:33] <soren> That looks fine to me. What's the error you're getting?
[08:33] <csilk> pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy: Depends: libgtkglext1 which is a virtual package.
[08:34] <soren> csilk: Building for intrepid?
[08:34] <soren> csilk: or hardy?
[08:34] <csilk> on hardy for intrepid
[08:37] <soren> That sounds quite odd.
[08:37] <soren> I think I'd do a "pbuilder update" and see if that helps anything. libgtkglext1 isn't virtual.
[08:38] <csilk> My point exactly
[08:38] <csilk> and pbuilder can't be upgraded anymore
[08:39] <Koon> looks like the usual "pbuilder does not have universe" error, though libgtkglext1 should be in main :)
[08:41] <Koon> csilk: you should recreate the pbuilder
[08:41] <Koon> ciskif it cannot be updated anymre it's seriously broken anyway
[08:42] <csilk> If I've been working all day with a "broken" pbuilder then I've just wasted a whole day
[08:43] <soren> Koon: re main/universe: Yep, that's why I asked about hardy/intrepid. It moved to main this release cycle.
[08:43] <soren> csilk: What do you mean it can't be upgraded anymore?
[08:44] <csilk> It's already at the latest version
[08:44] <Koon> ah, that's not what I understood :)
[08:45] <Koon> csilk: could you pastebin the full pbuilder output ?
[08:48] <soren> csilk: That's not what I meant.
[08:48] <soren> csilk: Hang on, let me find the command line..
[08:49] <dholbach> hi soren
[08:49] <soren> csilk: pbuilder --update
[08:49] <soren> dholbach: Hi, dholbach!
[08:49]  * soren hugs dholbach 
[08:49]  * dholbach hugs soren back
[08:50] <csilk> soren,  0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[08:50] <soren> csilk: That's ok. The error might have been in the package lists.
[08:50] <soren> csilk: Try te build again.
[08:51] <csilk> same issue
[08:51] <csilk> I really don't understand, this was working 2 days ago
[08:55] <wgrant> .... did somebody really start a serious poll on ubuntuforums.org to remove NM0.7!?
[08:55] <wgrant> Some people...
[08:56] <soren> csilk: Can I see the sources.list from that pbuilder?
[08:58] <csilk> soren,  i just purged pbuilder I'm re-installing and re-configuring
[08:59] <huats> morning everyone
[09:01] <csilk> soren,  problem solved, not too sure what the problem was in the first place but I purged, installed and re-configured the sources list with hardy backports and all is well
[09:02] <soren> csilk: Hardy backports? For an intrepid pbuilder?
[09:02] <csilk> sorry, typo, i meant intrepid repo
[09:03] <soren> Ok.
[09:09] <csilk> ok done, that's another package out of the way, no point in me going to bed now, I have a algorithms uni lecture in 40 mins -_-
[09:10] <csilk> *an
[09:10] <didrocks> morning
[09:14] <csilk> bed time. good night/morning ;)
[09:25] <\sh> grmpf
[09:36] <ajmitch> hi \sh
[09:59] <\sh> ajmitch: hey :) how's life? :)
[11:27] <pochu> DktrKranz: hi, pitti just accepted my upload for bug 208068, could you have a look at it?
[11:28] <DktrKranz> pochu: need the ACK?
[11:29] <pochu> DktrKranz: yeah
[11:29] <pochu> if it looks reasonably to you ;)
[11:29] <DktrKranz> pochu: mind subscribing me to it? I lack a browser (yes, it's strange, but that is!)
[11:32] <pochu> DktrKranz: done. I can mail you the debdiff if you want
[11:34] <DktrKranz> pochu: not needed, it should be available on LP
[11:34] <DktrKranz> or easily grabbed from sources
[11:34] <persia> pochu, Does that finally sort the issue, or do we need to revisit for jaunty?
[11:34] <pochu> persia: it's already fixed in Intrepid
[11:34] <pochu> persia: that's a backported fix for Hardy
[11:35] <persia> pochu, right.  From the bug traffic, I wasn't sure if this was a workaround or a final solution.  If it's final, I'll not worry about it when updating wildmidi for squeeze.
[12:08] <Woody86> g'morning everyone:)
[12:08] <highvoltage> morning Woody86
[12:09] <highvoltage> where's Sarge86 and Etch86 today?
[12:12] <AnAnt_> how about Sid86 ?
[12:12] <highvoltage> AnAnt_: I think the others are chasing him
[12:13] <highvoltage> It would be nice if there were motu videos that covered merges for when Jaunty opens.
[12:14] <AnAnt_> I find IRC sessions to be useful, I gained benefit from dkms one
[12:15] <Woody86> So are there any requirements or competencies expected from someone to be able to join and help out the MOTU?
[12:15] <AnAnt_> superm1: sl-modem with DKMS support can be found at: http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/non-free/s/sl-modem/sl-modem_2.9.11~20080817-2.dsc , I hope you give me feedback
[12:15] <persia> Woody86, To get started, you mostly just have to understand the concept of a patch.  You can learn everything else along the way.
[12:15] <persia> AnAnt_, Is it smart enough that a single source builds both modass and dkms support?
[12:16] <Woody86> persia: just knowing that it's a package to fix a bug? or do I need to know more?
[12:16] <AnAnt_> persia: meaning ?
[12:17] <AnAnt_> persia: I don't understand what you mean by smart enough ?
[12:17] <Woody86> I really have no experience with programming or anything, but I'd like to help as much as i can :)
[12:17] <persia> AnAnt_, That an unmodified source package would build a modass-compatible binary for Debian and a DKMS-compatible binary for Ubuntu.
[12:18] <persia> Woody86, The goal is to identify issues with the packages, find or generate fixes, apply them, get them to Debian or to upstream if they apply there, and get them into Ubuntu.
[12:18] <AnAnt_> persia: it supports both module-assistant & DKMS in both ubuntu & debian
[12:18] <persia> Each bug has a different procedure to do this, although there are many commonalities.
[12:18] <AnAnt_> persia: oh, you reminded me to add some check
[12:18] <persia> AnAnt_, Perfect :)
[12:18] <persia> Woody86, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing has some hints to get started.
[12:19] <AnAnt_> persia: I mean, if the system got dkms, then dkms will work, else, user has to manually run the module-assistant command
[12:19] <Woody86> persia: thanks, I'll check it out :)
[12:31] <AnAnt_> persia: DKMS support in sl-modem fixed (hopefully), you can have a look at it
[12:32] <persia> AnAnt_, I certainly will.
[12:32] <AnAnt_> persia: simply I run the dkms commands inside an if [ -x /usr/sbin/dkms ] block
[12:33] <AnAnt_> persia: and dkms is in Recommends
[12:33] <persia> AnAnt_, That's a safe plan.  That is at package install time, not build time, right?
[12:33] <AnAnt_> persia: yeah, install tiime
[12:33] <AnAnt_> I think dkms should be in Suggests
[12:34] <persia> Needs to be Recommends in Ubuntu to encourage the installation.
[12:35] <AnAnt_> persia: in case of Debian, if it is in Recommends while dkms is not in Debian yet, will that be a problem ?
[12:36] <persia> AnAnt_, Dunno.  It's not a policy violation, but it might be annoying.  Check with your sponsor.
[12:36] <AnAnt_> ok
[12:39] <james_w> there was a release goal to remove all unmet recommends
[12:39] <james_w> so you may be asked to remove it until it is in
[12:40] <persia> james_w, Do you know if that is planned to become policy then?
[12:40] <james_w> I'm not sure
[12:40] <persia> It would be a sensible policy.
[12:40] <persia> AnAnt_, I don't suppose you could find another way to make your package Depend on DKMS only in Ubuntu?
[12:41] <AnAnt_> well, since someone is working on dkms package in Debian, I don't think it's worth the effort to find out another way
[12:42] <AnAnt_> hopefully
[12:42] <persia> That makes sense :)
[14:08] <sistpoty|work> hi folks
[14:11] <Woody86> hi sistpoty|work
[14:11] <sistpoty|work> hi Woody86
[14:28] <\sh> ScottK: oh wow...you blog :)
[14:28] <nxvl> \o/
[14:29] <emgent> heya
[14:34] <laga> ScottK: do you think you could change your RSS feed to include the complete text?
[14:37] <ScottK> laga: Should I?  It's always seemed to me that those incredibly long posts on planet are a bit annoying.
[14:37] <ScottK> Personally I like shorter ones that I can click to see the rest.
[14:38] <ScottK> I'll consider it.
[14:38] <emgent> welcome to planet ScottK :)
[14:38] <StevenK> I prefer the long posts, I'll just scroll past entries I want to visually grep out
[14:38] <ScottK> Thanks.
[14:38] <ScottK> StevenK: OK.  Good point.
[14:39]  * ScottK wonders it laga just didn't like the cliffhanger transition.
[14:39] <\sh> I think we should nominate one song of Jonos new record...and put it on planet.ubuntu.com ,-) so people can hear what they can expect when they read ,-)
[14:39] <emgent> hhehehe
[14:40] <StevenK> "Rumors to the contrary, I don't generally bite."
[14:40] <StevenK> Hah!
[14:41] <sebner> what about putting on of jono's songs in the ubuntu example content ^^
[14:41] <\sh> function foo { mkfifo $bla ; ssh -f $host $command > $bla } foo <- this doesn't work somehow in bash...yay
[14:41] <StevenK> We probably don't have the CD space
[14:41] <StevenK> \sh: Which bit?
[14:41] <\sh> StevenK: the ssh bit...
[14:42] <StevenK> It doesn't call ssh?
[14:42] <sebner> StevenK: well, removing the other (non-jono) stuff then ^^
[14:42] <ScottK> StevenK: Just sample one second every twenty and see if anyone can tell the difference.
[14:42] <\sh> StevenK: after accessing the fifo from the outside ssh runs into the background...and that's documented behaviour
[14:42] <StevenK> \sh: Does bash -x shed ligh?
[14:42] <StevenK> s/ligh/light/
[14:42] <StevenK> ScottK: As a heavy metal fan, *yes*
[14:43] <\sh> StevenK: yes..it's stays at "ssh -f" and after a tail -f $bla it works as expected, but not redirecting the output to the fifo
[14:43] <\sh> StevenK: I'm writing a different example script and put it for resolution on the blog...let lazyweb deal with it ,->
[14:43] <sebner> ScottK: thx for milestoning ssmtp, though I uploaded the fixed debdiff now and pinged nxvl ^^
[14:43] <StevenK> Oh, you need to tail the fifo?
[14:44] <StevenK> \sh: Suggest you also describe the problem you're trying to solve since people might go "Uhh, bad idea"
[14:44] <\sh> StevenK: well, yes and no...dialog --tailbox should tail the fifo inside a script
[14:44] <\sh> StevenK: and as dialog --tailbox needs a file to tail, the easy solution was "ssh -f ... > fifo"
[14:45] <\sh> and move ssh into the background and kill it later when it's not needed anymore...stay tuned for the article...so it becomes more clear
[14:45] <StevenK> It's getting close to 1am. I doubt it will become clear until after I've slept
[14:49] <laga> ScottK: i read the planet in my RSS reader
[14:50] <ScottK> laga: I understand.  I do the same.  I appreciate the feedback and will probably change it.
[14:50] <\sh> StevenK: I'll write it this evening (my time) because right now I have a *censored* windows machine again to deploy.-..
[14:51] <StevenK> If it's *censored*, why would you deploy it :-P
[14:51] <\sh> StevenK: because recordmydesktop doesn't work for us ;)
[15:05] <slytherin> persia: forgot to log bug previously, did it just now. bug #286973
[15:06] <persia> slytherin, OK.  libdom0-java seems already gone :)
[15:07] <slytherin> persia: how come? I was under impression there are still some rdepends on that.
[15:07] <slytherin> persia: may be they were fixed in recent uploads doko did.
[15:08] <slytherin> persia: well, rmadison still says it is there.
[15:08] <persia> slytherin, Not for me, and neither does it show in my intrepid apt-cache.
[15:08] <doko> no, didn't do any jdom related uploads
[15:09] <slytherin> persia: I will check at hoem later
[15:14] <ScottK> persia: Did you test clamtk with our clamav (it's a newer version than Debian has)?  I wouldn't expect problems based on the changes in the new clamav and clamtk's design, but ...
[15:15] <persia> ScottK, Yep, although only for Ubuntu Desktop and Ubuntu Mobile.
[15:15] <ScottK> That should be sufficient.
[15:16] <persia> ScottK, Also, I don't seem to have any viruses, so I couldn't test the discovery.
[15:16] <ScottK> persia: sudo apt-get install clamav-testfiles
[15:16] <ScottK> But if it scans it should be fine.
[15:17] <persia> ScottK, Thanks for the hint.  I'll test with that and make sure that works too.
[15:17] <persia> (although after the TB meeting)
[15:18] <slytherin> does anyone know if network manager supports setting up networking over firewire? I tried yesterday but couldn't make it work so I ended up giving static IP on both machines.
[15:24] <directhex> slytherin, i've never seen my firewire ports listed as devices, now that you mention it
[15:24] <sebner> directhex: I need your magic power ~o~
[15:24] <slytherin> directhex: that is because eth1394 module is blacklisted. Remove it from /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist
[15:24]  * directhex hides under a desk
[15:25] <slytherin> directhex: Of course I am not sure if network manager will show them even after that.
[15:25] <sebner> directhex: hrhr, http://tinyurl.com/5dqkqj
[15:25] <directhex> sebner, :/
[15:26] <directhex> "./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr "
[15:26] <directhex> *stabstab*
[15:26] <sebner> directhex: Read the 2nd comment
[15:26] <laga> what is 10.04?
[15:26] <directhex> laga, part  of the standard of advice you get from people who use prefix=/usr :)
[15:26] <sebner> laga: I suppose a typo
[15:27] <laga> directhex: rotfl
[15:27] <sebner> directhex: READ the 2ND comment ;D
[15:27] <directhex> sebner, i did. i think he means only about his typo, not the system-killer advice
[15:28] <sebner> directhex: I mean the hint to the mono2 packages (which are totally b0rken meebey told me ;))
[15:28] <directhex> sebner, they are.
[15:28] <sebner> directhex: I want you to add a comment ;D
[15:28] <directhex> sebner, this is the thing: if packaging things were so trivial, what makes people think those closer to the source wouldn't have done it already?
[15:29] <sebner> directhex: well, you know this .exe syndrom
[15:30] <directhex> sebner, cba registering for a forum i don't want to use. you can reply on my behalf, and point out that nobody in the ubuntu mono packaging team will help them one bit when they break their systems on the broken compile or broken packages
[15:31] <sebner> directhex: hehe, Sry I thought your are registered :\
[15:31] <directhex> sebner, i have access to mono-project.com, but that forum is nabble.com
[15:32] <sebner> directhex: I understand. Just thought so because nabble *is* the official mono forum?!
[15:34] <ScottK> persia: RE: clamtk - I hope that service was quick enough.
[15:35] <directhex> sebner, it's a third party forum hosting site. it's just embedded via iframes
[15:35] <sebner> directhex: hehe, so what's the official one?
[15:36] <directhex> sebner, well, it's official, but it doesn't share credentials. hence i'd need to sign up to that forum, and i don't really want to
[15:36] <persia> ScottK, Indeed :)  Before I had a chance to look at it a second time.
[15:36] <sebner> directhex: kk, so we just teach the b0rken users how bad they were? :)
[15:37] <directhex> sebner, yeah. if they don't like my xsp packages, then stuff 'em
[15:37] <sebner> ^^
[16:06] <RainCT> (ScottK: Hey, could you change your feeds to include the full text, please?)
[16:06] <ScottK> RainCT: I will.  You aren't the first to ask.
[16:38] <ScottK> laga and RainCT: Blog is fixed now.
[16:50] <RainCT> ScottK: thanks
[17:12]  * ScottK gives vorian a smack.
[17:12] <ScottK> vorian: Please give meaningful debian/changelog entries.
[17:12] <ScottK> "A few bug fixes' doesnt' qualify.
[17:13]  * sebner winks ScottK just for fun :)
[17:13] <ScottK> Also no need to mention changing the maintainer.
[17:13] <ScottK> sebner doesn't actually have to look at every upload right now and answer ubuntu-release questions about it.
[17:13]  * cody-somerville decides to have all his changelogs say "Made some changes" from now on :P
[17:14]  * sebner decides to say sorry to ScottK and is quiet until release now :\
[17:19] <ScottK> DktrKranz, sistpoty|work, TheMuso, norsetto (if you were here): Someone of us really ought to go through pending FFe and see that all are resolved either for or against.
[17:19]  * ScottK will not have time for a while.
[17:19] <DktrKranz> ScottK: I'll have a look at them later this evening.
[17:20] <ScottK> DktrKranz: Great.
[17:20] <DktrKranz> how can we deal with "pending" ones?
[17:20] <ScottK> sebner: As penance, go update amule and do the FFe.
[17:20] <DktrKranz> there are some set to incomplete since ages, now
[17:21] <ScottK> DktrKranz: Use your judgement about saying 'too late' and marking invalid.
[17:21] <DktrKranz> agreed
[17:21] <ScottK> By about Friday the FFe list should all be either fix released or invalid.
[17:21]  * sistpoty|work will eventually take a look at the two gaming related packages (sldmame, hedgewars), but not too sure if I'll come around tonight
[17:22] <sebner> ScottK: if you ACK the FFe I'm fine with it
[17:22] <DktrKranz> eventually, some bugs can be unsubscribed from motu-release
[17:22] <ScottK> sebner: I'll ack it.
[17:22] <DktrKranz> e.g. some needs-packaging
[17:22] <sebner> ScottK: ok, doing it. (today or tomorrow)
[17:22] <ScottK> DktrKranz: Those you can unsubcribe now.
[17:22] <ScottK> sebner: Great.
[17:22] <sebner> welcome
[17:23] <sistpoty|work> DktrKranz: needs-packaging ones?
[17:24] <DktrKranz> sistpoty|work: IIRC there were some open, but I could be wrong
[17:24] <sistpoty|work> DktrKranz: at least none that I'm aware of right now, but I too could be wrong ;)
[17:24] <sistpoty|work> ah, indeed, e.g. bug #273109
[17:26] <DktrKranz> exactly
[17:34]  * DktrKranz heads home, back in an hour
[18:00]  * sistpoty|work heads home... cya
[18:26] <DktrKranz> soren, re bug 277272, did you file removal request, or do you plan to do it soon?
[19:20] <ethana2> The 8.10 rc is going to include GNOME 2.24.1, right?
[19:25] <slytherin> ethana2: I guess 2.24.1 is already in. Correct me if I am wrong
[19:26] <ethana2> http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyfive
[19:26] <ethana2> 2.24 is in of course, but 2.24.1 isn't 'out' 'till tomorrow
[19:27] <sebner> ethana2: they are already starting to ship the tarballs
[19:27] <ethana2> oh, ok
[19:27] <ethana2> how do tarballs differ from releases?
[19:27] <sebner> ethana2: the date
[19:27] <sebner> ^^
[19:28] <ethana2> that's it?
[19:28] <ethana2> interesting
[19:28] <sebner> ethana2: some days before release the want to have the new tarballs from every project. so ubuntu can ship them before official release
[19:29] <ethana2> cool.
[19:29] <ethana2> i look forward to torrenting and burning the release candidate...
[19:29] <ethana2> i administrate..   5 machines i think
[19:29] <ethana2> going to install 8.10 on two of them and then give them to family
[19:30] <sebner> ^^
[19:30] <ethana2> ^^?
[19:30] <DktrKranz> slytherin, (and persia when you catch up): any progress on bug 268912 and bug 269070 ?
[19:30] <sebner> ethana2: nvm ;)
[19:30] <DktrKranz> huhu sebner
[19:30] <sebner> DktrKranz: HUHU
[19:31] <ethana2> ^.^
[19:58] <slytherin> DktrKranz: It is too late for intrepid already. Also jboss packages are not completely built. Those bugs can be deferred.
[19:59] <DktrKranz> slytherin, I'll mark bugs as wontfix for now then, thanks ;)
[20:03] <DktrKranz> gilir, re bug 250949, could you elaborate on GNOME 2.24 integration?
[20:03] <slytherin> DktrKranz: Sure. Sorry for delay from my side. Have been busy with office work lately.
[20:03] <DktrKranz> slytherin, no problem at all, thanks for responding quickly here ;(
[20:03] <DktrKranz> erm... ";)"
[20:04] <DktrKranz> and now we have only four bugs to manage with! \o/
[20:08] <gilir> DktrKranz: it only concern applets, which is not in the package, I will add a note on the bug
[20:17] <kiko> hey, who can delete community wikipages?
[20:17] <kiko> I can't so I copied one and would like the existing page nuked
[20:17] <kiko> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NokiaEvolutionBluetoothSyncing
[20:19] <DktrKranz> gilir, thanks for the clarification
[20:20] <superm1> kiko, i think you are supposed to add a redirect in the old page to bring you to the new one
[20:22] <kiko> superm1, I guess I can do that too. thanks.
[20:34] <sebner> james_w: around? srry, I missed twiki. So the best thing for now is just to grop mini-httpd? bug #261962
[20:34] <james_w> sebner: I'm not sure
[20:35] <sebner> james_w: alternates are?
[20:35] <james_w> making it work with mini-httpd the way it used to?
[20:36] <sebner> james_w: what is the "better" solution, thinking of the release in the some days
[20:37] <james_w> I'm not sure
[20:38] <sebner> james_w: then we have to find one who can help us ;)
[20:38] <james_w> what do you think is better?
[20:39] <sebner> james_w: I'm fine with both solutions but your rationale for dropping mini-httpd sounds reasonable
[20:39] <james_w> it's a kick in the teeth for anyone that wants to use mini-httpd though
[20:40] <james_w> but considering they have to either install apache as well, or hack something to avoid it, they can probably take it
[20:41] <sebner> james_w: that's the question now. to be honest /me didn't know that mini-httpd exists. I just know apache ^^
[20:46]  * NCommander inhales deeply
[20:46] <cody-somerville> NCommander, no
[20:46]  * RainCT inhales slowly
[20:46] <NCommander> cody-somerville, WTF?
[20:46] <cody-somerville> NCommander, Exactly.
[20:47]  * NCommander pulls out his sword and cuts your computer in half cody-somerville 
[20:47] <cody-somerville> Well, if you're not going to play nice then I'm taking my toys and going home!
[20:47] <RainCT> NCommander: you are in the same room? o.O
[20:47] <NCommander> RainCT, cody and I are split personalities of each other
[20:48] <RainCT> NCommander: d'oh, why haven't I thought of this before?!
[20:48] <RainCT> this explains it all!
[20:48] <NCommander> RainCT, because I can't remember my/our GPG password so each personality needs to apply for MOTUship seperately
[21:06] <ajmitch> hello crazy people
[21:06] <geser> Hi ajmitch
[21:08] <RainCT> ajmitch!! :P
[21:10] <RainCT> (crazy people scream, right? ^^)
[21:12]  * ajmitch upgraded to intrepid last night, and it actually mostly went ok
[21:12] <ajmitch> all I lost was X for a short time as it couldn't handle the config file
[21:13] <RainCT> ajmitch: and your PC doesn't freeze if you start GNOME? :P
[21:13] <ajmitch> not the last time that I saw
[21:13] <RainCT> bah, why does all the evil happen to me *g*
[21:13] <ajmitch> though I'm a little worried about not handling a fairly basic xorg.conf
[22:13] <RainCT> man, people asking for "bleeding edge repositories" on brainstorm are annoying :P
[22:18] <NCommander> well, that's what grumpy groundhog was susposed to be
[22:18] <NCommander> But that project seems to have crashed and burned
[22:27] <slytherin> NCommander: or rather cut and sliced into pieces due to bleeding edge. :-P
[22:30] <ajmitch> NCommander: finally applying, I see
[22:30] <NCommander> Yeup
[22:30] <NCommander> I was going to wait for DIF jaunty
[22:30] <NCommander> But I was convinced to do it earlier
[22:31] <ajmitch> it helps to get upload rights sooner
[22:32] <NCommander> so eight days until I get REJECTed
[22:32] <NCommander> Much faster than Debian NM :-)
[22:32]  * NCommander runs
[22:32] <ajmitch> yeah, right
[22:32] <NCommander> ajmitch, going to say two cents worth about me?
[22:33] <ajmitch> do I need to?
[22:33]  * ajmitch hasn't looked at many of your uploads
[22:33] <NCommander> ajmitch, no
[22:33]  * NCommander doesn't require +1ing for work
[22:33]  * NCommander has a horrible headache
[22:33] <ajmitch> while I'm sure that they're all fine, I think that my input is not valuable
[22:36] <RainCT> good night
[22:36] <geser> ajmitch: sure it is, even if you don't want/can't comment on his technical skills you can comment on his community integration (or any other items you like or dislike)
[22:55] <NCommander> hey geser
[22:57] <NCommander> hey persia
[23:08] <LaserJock> anybody from MOTU Release about?
[23:36] <NCommander> hey LaserJock
[23:37] <LaserJock> NCommander: hi
[23:37] <NCommander> I finally applied for MOTU
[23:38] <LaserJock> nice
[23:49] <csilk> anyone know what the -sa flag in debuild does, the manpage doesn't say
[23:53] <NCommander> csilk, force the inclusion of the original source
[23:53] <csilk> Ok thanks