[00:15] <wgrant> Wow. Big changes in Debian.
[00:16] <directhex> good or bad?
[00:16] <directhex> hang on, big changes? with lenny in freeze?
[00:18] <RAOF> wgrant: Are you talking about the firmware shitfight?
[00:18] <RAOF> Argh.  Whoops! Sorry.
[00:18] <wgrant> The DM/DME/DD/blahblah.
[00:20] <RAOF> That's obviously on some Debian list I don't follow.
[00:21] <slangasek> debian-devel-announce.
[00:21] <persia> Which, if one follows any Debian lists, should probably be near the top of important lists.
[00:21] <wgrant> Indeed.
[00:21] <wgrant> It's the only Debian list I'm completely up to date on.
[00:21] <NCommander> Whats DME?
[00:21] <NCommander> wgrant, ^
[00:21] <wgrant> Debian Member.
[00:22] <NCommander> Debian has members?
[00:22] <RAOF> Aaah.
[00:22] <RAOF> Just hit that mail :)
[00:22]  * NCommander blinks
[00:22] <wgrant> NCommander: See the d-d-a mail.
[00:22] <wgrant> Also DC.
[00:22]  * NCommander feels like Debian just pulled an Ubuntu
[00:22] <persia> DME is a lovely step.  Nice to see that.
[00:22] <wgrant> It is excellent.
[00:23] <directhex> i've got my own page on packages.qa.debian.org, what do i get to be? ^_^
[00:23] <persia> And DC is DM for DME?  Do I understand that right?
[00:23] <wgrant> persia: I think so.
[00:24]  * persia should really apply for DM one of these days.
[00:24] <NCommander> I think my head hurts
[00:25] <wgrant> persia: But digging around for a sponsor hours before Lenny's freeze is fun!
[00:25] <NCommander> persia, if your interested in becoming a Debian Maintainer or Debian Developer, I'd be willing to work w/ you on this goal.
[00:26] <directhex> wgrant, digging around for a sponsor hours after intrepid's freeze is also fun
[00:26] <persia> wgrant, I suppose.  I've not been so active lately, but a couple weeks ago there were no RC bugs against my packages (and I am short on time these days).
[00:26] <wgrant> directhex: But sponsorship in Ubuntu isn't stupid.
[00:26] <NCommander> directhex, finding Ubuntu sponsors are less of a headache
[00:26] <directhex> NCommander, i've found it much much easier to get uploads into debian, tbh
[00:26] <RAOF> That depends on the team, I suspect.
[00:26] <directhex> yeah, RAOF has a point
[00:26] <RAOF> Since directhex is fairly core in Debian Mono :)
[00:27] <directhex> yet i always need to beg for hours->days->weeks for an ubuntu upload
[00:27] <RAOF> And even I find it easy enough to get new CIL packages uploaded.
[00:27] <directhex> thank god for the post-lentrepid mono syncing plan
[00:28] <RAOF> Yah.  We might actually want to get some form of active mono team happening (which would necessarily involve a core-dev)
[00:28] <wgrant> Generating a new core-dev might be useful there.
[00:29] <directhex> could we clone slomo? he was always good for mono, but is too busy nowadays
[00:29]  * persia suspects that cloning slomo would result in two busy slomos
[00:29] <RAOF> persia: But maybe one of the busy slomos could be busy with mono!
[00:29] <directhex> bleh
[00:29] <persia> RAOF, Maybe :)
[00:30] <directhex> anyway, i think mono has a vibrant & active developer base which on paper is focused on debian, and uploadwise is focused on debian, but i know myself and i suspect RAOF too are actually doing development & testing on ubuntu first & foremost
[00:31] <directhex> all we need is a hard-line to a core dev, for those times when i can't beg pitti
[00:31] <directhex> since pitti is hardly a man of free time either
[00:32] <persia> Well, there are currently two routes.  Either find a MOTU who keeps touching mono and convince them to apply for core-dev, or wait until the TB has determined the procedure for non-MOTU to apply for upload to main, and use that.
[00:33] <directhex> i strongly suspect the unwritten "whoever touched it last is first contact" rule is at least as much to blame for "i ain't touching it" responses as fud blogs making mono sound like the devil
[00:37] <directhex> anyway, bedtime
[00:37] <persia> Yeah.  I never really liked the TIL principle.
[00:38] <directhex> persia, i'd MUCH rather people contact me, or even original-maintainer (which goes to me and a few others), in the case of the mono stack - since i reckon we're rather more comfortable with the packages than people like pitti or slangasek
[00:39] <persia> directhex, Don't you end up with TIL because of Changed-By: ?
[00:39] <directhex> but, y'know, whatever. i'm certainly not unhappy about intrepid's mono (for one thing, it's great that lenny & intrepid will ship the same version). but jaunty's mono will be light years ahead
[00:39] <persia> Hrm.  Oddly not reliably.
[00:40] <directhex> persia, oh i dunno. i certainly haven't been notified of ubuntuX bumps since i took on packaging duties
[00:40] <directhex> anyway, bedtime, i mean it this time
[00:49] <ajmitch> RAOF: what's this about mono stuff?
[00:51] <RAOF> ajmitch: We'd like quick and easy access to a core-dev mono sponsor :).  And by "we" I mean "mostly directhex"!
[00:52] <crimsun> push really hard for ArchiveReorganisation ;-)
[00:52]  * persia peers carefully at ajmitch's groups membership.
[00:52] <persia> crimsun, Doesn't really help that much : changes the problem to needing somone on the Desktop Development team (which currently doesn't exist).
[00:52] <ajmitch> persia: I'm not in groups :)
[00:53] <persia> ajmitch, You are the very basis of groups.
[00:53] <ajmitch> why, because I'm in core-dev but not motu or even ubuntumembers?
[00:53] <crimsun> pfft, I'm not in any of those three!
[00:53] <ajmitch> you were
[00:53] <crimsun> yeah well...
[00:54]  * ajmitch decided to renew at least 1 of them
[00:54] <persia> crimsun, you know : you could reapply.  Threshold is low for previous members ...
[00:54] <ajmitch> especially previous members like crimsun
[00:55]  * persia isn't sure that it's not an oily slide in this case
[00:55] <ajmitch> I suspect reapplying for core-dev will be a rubberstamp at most
[00:59] <cody-somerville> ajmitch, if you're a member of core-dev then you're a member of ubuntumembers
[01:00] <ajmitch> cody-somerville: yes I know
[01:01] <cody-somerville> ajmitch, and if you're not careful, we might add you to motu :P
[01:01] <ajmitch> you have no reason to
[02:13] <ScottK> NCommander: I read the dda announcement as rather the opposite.
[02:14] <NCommander> ??
[02:14] <ScottK> Instead of being an Ubuntu, I read it as "Gee, we've got a light weight process that is working smoothly.  Le't make it harder."
[02:14] <NCommander> oh
[02:14] <NCommander> I wonder when this was passed
[02:15] <nxvl> ScottK: the lack of sleep never helps
[02:15] <nxvl> :D
[02:16] <ScottK> Dunno.  I'm not aware of the current DM process leading to any problem DMs.
[02:16] <ScottK> But clearly it's too easy so it needs to be made harder.
[02:17] <nxvl> DM as in Debian Maintainer?
[02:17] <persia> ScottK, How was it made harder?  I read it as offering the DC and DME categories for non-developers as parallel to DM/DD.  Good news for translators, porters, etc.
[02:17] <ScottK> True for the DC route (that being new).
[02:18] <ScottK> Currently to get DM you had to be sponsored by one DD and have no one object.
[02:18]  * persia reads the email again
[02:18] <ScottK> That's gotten morphed into some mini-NM process with questions, answers, and reviews.
[02:19] <ScottK> Currently if you are a DM and want the right to upload a package, all you have to do is convince your sponsor (or any DD) to add the DM allowed flag to debian/control
[02:19] <persia> ScottK, Indeed.  I see your point.
[02:19] <ScottK> This message creates a new review process and a separate list.
[02:20] <persia> Hrm.  I guess I should have applied last week.
[02:20] <ScottK> Finally, the statement that it takes no power out of the hands of DDs is not correct.
[02:20] <ScottK> Previously, any DD had the right to authorize a DM to upload a package.  That has been taken away.
[02:21] <persia> And DD vote diluted (although I consider that good, as I think DME is good).
[02:21] <persia> Anyway, there are forums for this discussion, and this isn't one of them :)
[02:21] <ScottK> So for at least that part of it, I read it more as , "Hey, we've got this fast, light weight process that's working well.  Let's fix that."
[02:21] <persia> That's a little too sarcastic.
[02:21] <persia> Maybe there was a problem DM?
[02:21] <ScottK> Yes, but only a little.
[02:21] <ScottK> Maybe.
[02:22] <ScottK> The original DM process dealt with how to resolve such problems too.
[02:22] <ScottK> So back to my original point, compared to Debian, I think Ubuntu tends to be lightweight process wise and rather more agile.
[02:23] <nxvl> ScottK: way more
[02:23] <ScottK> So this was a step in the opposite direction IMO.
[02:25] <persia> I think Ubuntu is different.  Many things seem to be lightweight, but other things are less so.  It's a different way of coordinating things.  Some things are easier, some things are harder.
[02:25]  * ajmitch goes to cactch up on debian-devel
[02:25] <ScottK> ajmitch: It's d-d-a.
[02:26] <ajmitch> yeah, and followups on debian-project
[02:26] <ScottK> Perhaps I ought to subscribe to that one.
[02:26] <ScottK> OTOH, maybe not.
[02:26] <ScottK> ajmitch: Is this a proposal or is it the new order?
[02:26] <nxvl> \o/ i can read those ML from here
[02:27] <ScottK> The message doesn't actually say.
[02:27] <ajmitch> "This was initially written by me, then discussed within DAM (so take
[02:27] <ajmitch> us two for we)  and then discussed with DSA, FTPMaster,
[02:27] <ajmitch> Keyring-Maint, Secretary, FrontDesk and the DPL.
[02:27] <ajmitch> "
[02:27] <ajmitch> but not stated if it's actually a policy yet
[02:28] <nxvl> ScottK: Developer Status e-mail?
[02:28] <ScottK> Yes.
[02:29]  * ScottK reads the archive now.
[02:30] <NCommander> Wasn't DM passed by GR?
[02:30] <ajmitch> so far there hasn't been much discussion about it
[02:30] <NCommander> SHouldn't this pass too by GR?
[02:30] <NCommander> ajmitch, most people are still flaming about firmware in linux-2.6
[02:30] <ajmitch> NCommander: most likely, and it'll probably require a GR
[02:30] <StevenK> NCommander: Yes, but now the ftp-masters are annoyed that they have been bypassed
[02:30] <NCommander> ON linux-2.6, or DMs?
[02:31]  * StevenK is talking about DMs
[02:31] <ScottK> I see that Raphael Geissert has already made most of my points.
[02:31] <NCommander> ?
[02:32]  * ScottK tries to decide if he should feel more or less motivated to work on NM.
[02:32] <StevenK> ScottK: If you pass NM now, you get grandfathered in
[02:33] <NCommander> StevenK, so as long as I don't get rejected, I should be ok :-)
[02:33] <persia> Hrm?  6-month waiting time?
[02:33] <ajmitch> persia: you can't rush these things
[02:34] <StevenK> What 6-month waiting time? :-P
[02:34] <nxvl> ScottK: i get the same feeling as you "it's too easy, let's fix it"
[02:34] <persia> ajmitch, It's that I didn't think that anyone ever complained the process was too fast.
[02:36] <nxvl> what!? 6 month wait
[02:36] <nxvl> that's crazy
[02:36] <ScottK> It's already taken me more than 6 months, so that's not a problem.
[02:37]  * StevenK declines to state how long he was in NM
[02:37] <NCommander> StevenK, yes, we all know about your two day NM :-P
[02:37]  * NCommander runs
[02:37] <StevenK> It wasn't two days
[02:37] <NCommander> I thought it was like one or two
[02:37] <StevenK> Closer to a week, but still
[02:40] <nxvl> why did it took you so less
[02:40] <nxvl> my NM process has been frozen for like 4 months
[02:40] <NCommander> nxvl, cause he applied in '01
[02:40] <nxvl> they state i'm a good candidate, but that i haven't to much uploads
[02:41] <nxvl> oh
[02:41]  * NCommander had three uploads at the time of NM ...
[02:41] <NCommander> :-)
[02:41] <nxvl> NCommander: you are DD already?
[02:41] <NCommander> Waiting on the DAM
[02:41] <NCommander> ^to make my account
[02:41] <NCommander> so a week or so
[02:42] <ScottK> NCommander: That probably means this is a really good time to be outspoken about this new proposal.
[02:42] <NCommander> I didn't think the DD process was changing
[02:42] <NCommander> You still had to finish P&P 1+2 and T&S 1+@
[02:43] <nxvl> it says that you are waiting for FD
[02:43] <NCommander> argh
[02:43] <NCommander> Wotcher didn't update it
[02:43] <NCommander> Oh well
[02:43] <NCommander> I'll be waiting for the DAM relatively soon ;-)
[02:58] <ScottK> I guess today is "Paul Hummer Day" on planet.
[02:58] <persia> heh
[02:58] <Flannel> ScottK: tomorrow it can be your day if you want
[02:59] <ScottK> If I wanted, every day could be my day.
[03:02] <nxvl> that's the power of being ScottK
[03:02] <nxvl> :P
[03:02] <ajmitch> I was shocked to see ScottK posting
[03:02] <ajmitch> what's next? ScottK praising launchpad?
[03:02] <nxvl> same here, happy, but shocked
[03:03] <ScottK> ajmitch: Unlikely.
[03:03] <ScottK> Although apparently they are going to open up all their design documentation in the next week or two.  No more secret specs.
[03:03] <ScottK> That's progress.
[03:03] <ajmitch> that's great to hear
[03:04] <nxvl> they as in?
[03:04] <nxvl> ah launchpad
[03:04] <nxvl> i missed that line
[04:10]  * ScottK wonders where all the busy MOTU trying to get last minute bug fixes in have gone?
[04:11] <Hobbsee> they ran away?
[04:11] <ScottK> I guess.
[04:12] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure how much stuff in universe there is that should be fixed for release.
[04:12]  * persia is busy testing RC candidates, but plans to attack RCbugs post-RC.
[04:12] <persia> Hobbsee, There's lots of unmetdeps, there's still a bunch of ftbfs, and there's RCbugs.
[04:13] <ajmitch> how late is too late?
[04:13]  * Hobbsee is iso testing as well
[04:13] <persia> Monday.
[04:13] <ajmitch> monday US time? :)
[04:13]  * ajmitch has a 3-day weekend
[04:13] <persia> Or maybe UTC, depending on when people get up in the morning.
[04:15]  * wgrant ponders quickly adding an 'unimportant' flag to rcbugs.
[04:15] <ajmitch> comments not enough for now?
[04:16] <ajmitch> or you just want some easier way to be able to skip them?
[04:16] <wgrant> The list of cherrypickings is growing.
[04:16] <wgrant> Yes.
[04:16] <wgrant> So things like cherrypicked fixes would be marked as unimportant, as they'd somewhat fade away,.
[04:17] <ajmitch> special comment or other thing that causes the bug to just not be displayed?
[04:17] <persia> You mean a way to mark that a cherrypick is complete, so it drops off the list?
[04:17] <wgrant> persia: Basically, yes.
[04:17] <wgrant> Or that it doesn't affect Ubuntu, or something else.
[04:17] <persia> My practice has basically been to ignore anything that had a comment when doing a final sweep, unless the comment was an RFS.
[04:18] <wgrant> It'd be only a few lines to add such a field to comments and alter the CSS.
[04:19] <ajmitch> right, hiding in CSS may be the quickest way
[04:19] <ajmitch> or marking in a different colour
[04:20] <persia> Don't suppose we could have a nifty javascript button at the top that wangled the CSS to show/hide such things?
[04:20] <ajmitch> wouldn't be hard
[04:21] <wgrant> We could also easily just split them into another section, like MoM does with updated/new.
[04:21]  * wgrant will think more post-lunch.
[04:21] <persia> That's probably easier to review.
[05:28] <iulian> Good morning.
[05:32]  * wgrant points at the new functionality on rcbugs
[05:32]  * wgrant demotes lots of existing ones.
[05:32] <persia> \o/
[05:46] <ajmitch> wgrant: ah good, you implemented it?
[05:47] <wgrant> ajmitch: It looks like it.
[05:47] <ajmitch> nice, so you have to attach the demotion to a comment
[05:48] <ajmitch> seems like it could work well
[05:48] <wgrant> I thought that was the easiest way to implement it, given that we don't have bug objects in the DB.
[05:48] <wgrant> And I don't want silent demotions.
[06:18] <dholbach> good morning
[06:26] <iulian> Morning dholbach.
[06:26] <dholbach> hi iulian
[07:38] <geser> Hi dholbach
[07:39] <dholbach> hi geser
[09:01] <annimar> I know it's probably impertinent, but could this be the right place to point to a blocker for abiword on intrepid? -> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/284857
[09:04] <persia> annimar, I'd recommend #xubuntu-devel, as they are probably the most interested party at this point in the cycle, and you'd need their approval anyway to change it.
[09:05] <annimar> persia: I would, but the bug doesn't affect xubuntu. It's Ubuntu-only.
[09:07] <persia> Wait.  It works in Xubuntu, but doesn't work in Ubuntu?
[09:07]  * persia looks at the bug more carefully.
[09:08] <annimar> persia: that's right.
[09:09] <persia> annimar, Did you report or comment on the bug?
[09:09] <annimar> I reported it
[09:09] <annimar> persia, should be reproducable on all ubuntu installations
[09:11] <persia> annimar, Interesting.  It looks like an issue with not finding ubuntulooks.  The workaround is to install gtk2-engines-ubuntulooks on Ubuntu.
[09:11] <persia> I'll update the bug with the workaround, but it's still the Xubuntu devs who would be the ones to update the package.
[09:13] <annimar> persia, thank you. Should I try to get in touch with the xubuntu devs on irc?
[09:13] <annimar> persia, so this is a dependency problem, right?
[09:13] <persia> annimar, If you want a fast response, yes, although if they are busy, they may not be able to help you now.
[09:14] <persia> Yes, it's a dependency issue (see my comment in the bug).
[09:14] <annimar> thanks a lot. I'll try to get someone of the xubuntu devs on irc
[09:14] <annimar> bye
[09:18] <didrocks> monring
[09:20] <directhex> is it? :(
[09:20] <persia> Depends on where you are, what timezone you choose to follow, and how one defines morning.
[09:21] <frith> not sure where to ask, but i noticed svn 1.5.3 has been released however
[09:21] <frith> doh
[09:21] <frith> sorry
[09:21] <frith> just released i hadn't updated
[09:23] <DktrKranz> well, somewhere in the world is always "morning", somewhere else is "afternoon" and somewhere else is "evening". Hard to tell, then ;)
[09:24] <persia> frith, Barring exceptional circumstances, it won't be included in Ubuntu until next month, at which time you'd want to file a backport (assuming nobody tries to go to 1.6)
[09:24] <frith> persia, 1.6?
[09:26] <persia> frith, Yep.  Watch http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/www/svn_1.6_releasenotes.html carfully for news.
[09:26] <frith> that is a pretty fast development cycle,
[09:27] <persia> Dunno if it will happen.  I doubt it personally.  I'm just not 100% sure which version will be available next month when subversion is next updated.
[09:28] <frith> I think i might just build my own 1.5.3 packages for giggles
[09:28] <persia> Could do.  If they work well, consider sharing them next month.
[09:29] <frith> no problem
[09:33] <DktrKranz> does anybody remember the plans to remove glib-1.2 from Debian, and eventually has some references to it?
[09:38] <persia> DktrKranz, Those plans have been tossed about for at least 18 months.  There are a few persistently stubborn applications.  One chain starts at ctsim, but when compiled against newer libraries it segfaults on startup, and upstream is hostile to porting at this time.  Another starts with searchandrescue, but upstream is inactive, and it needs to have the entire joystick interface ported to a different API (it's a flight simulator, so getting thi
[09:38] <persia> s right is key).
[09:39] <DktrKranz> \o/
[09:39] <DktrKranz> persia: thanks
[09:39] <persia> I suspect there are more, but those are the two that I've previously stumbled against.
[09:39] <persia> fixing ctsim also means dropping wx2.4
[09:40] <DktrKranz> I heard of it in the past, but I didn't see any progress on that, now I realized why
[09:40] <persia> fixing searchandrescue also means dropping jscalibrator, which is known to cause most USB joysticks to need to be reset after running.
[11:41] <highvoltage> dholbach: why does it say (fedora) after the items on http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/age.html ?
[11:42] <highvoltage> ah, sorry, I see.
[13:19] <james_w> do we need motu-release ACK for every change now, or should I just wait for an announcement?
[13:29] <ScottK> I think we said after the RC, so it should be OK.  If in doubt, feel free to ask.
[13:38] <james_w> it's pretty safe, just didn't want to get spanked for not following the procedure, thanks.
[13:40] <morgs> james_w: thanks for testing bug 287028 - I'll leave it for lfaraone to fix, seeing as it's his patch and IMO not critical
[13:40] <james_w> yeah, I think it's no trouble to just leave it unfixed in Intrepid
[13:41] <james_w> morgs: is there anything critical for the release you know of?
[13:41] <james_w> missing transitional packages or similar things?
[13:41] <morgs> james_w: bug 287745 is quite important, a wrong dep, has debdiff
[13:42] <morgs> james_w: bug 286764 seems to be the only actual failure on upgrade, I'll work on that today
[13:43] <james_w> morgs: thanks, I'm looking at the first now
[13:44] <ScottK> james_w: Is gedit-plugins the upload you just did?
[13:44] <james_w> ScottK: yeah
[13:45] <ScottK> OK.
[13:45] <james_w> it was my fault for not sponsoring the right thing the first time around
[13:45] <james_w> and the diff is tiny
[13:45] <ScottK> OK.  I just asked ubuntu-release to accept it.
[13:45] <james_w> thanks
[13:46] <james_w> I'll be uploading morgs' sugar-web-activity in a minute if it passes muster, just a dep change
[13:46] <ScottK> OK.  gedit-plugins accepted.
[13:46] <james_w> thanks
[13:58] <DktrKranz> ScottK: amule uploaded after FFe
[13:58] <ScottK> DktrKranz: Great.
[13:58] <sebner> DktrKranz: don't forget to notice me :P
[14:00] <DktrKranz> sebner: well... your business is already done ;)
[14:01] <DktrKranz> but new version seems to bypass my ISP so... it deserves to be in :)
[14:01] <sebner> DktrKranz: hehe, is LP b0rken or did you miss something?
[14:01] <DktrKranz> sebner: unapproved queue :)
[14:02] <sebner> DktrKranz: ahhhh
[14:02] <sebner> DktrKranz: there is quite _a lot_ in the unapproved queue ^^
[14:07] <ScottK> sebner: It's almost all Main stuff that will get accepted after the RC is out.  To accept it now, they'd have to respin CDs.
[14:07] <DktrKranz> ScottK: did you already ask to accpt cacao and xubuntu-meta, or do they need to wait after RC?
[14:07] <ScottK> Which means now is a good time to get Universe uploads done as after the RC release, the buildd's will be busy.
[14:07] <sebner> ScottK: understandable but also stuff from a week ago is there
[14:08] <ScottK> DktrKranz: xubuntu-meta would affect the xubuntu CD's so it definitely needs to wait.
[14:08] <ScottK> DktrKranz: The cacao one is tied to some Java thing in Main, so I think it needs to wait too.
[14:10] <DktrKranz> ScottK: good. I ignore it for now. Thanks.
[14:20] <sebner> sistpoty|work: \o/
[14:20] <sistpoty|work> hi sebner
[14:23] <mok0> Can someone help me shed some light on the following problem: packages that are sync'ed directly from Debian has "unstable" in their latest changelog entry, whereas packages that are merged have the ubuntu release (e.g. intrepid) in the latest entry. How does the build system deal with that? I am asking because I am in the process of recompiling a bunch of local packages for intrepid, but it seems to me that I need to bump the version number of every
[14:24] <mok0> ... and that really annoys me
[14:24] <james_w> mok0: it doesn't use the information from the changelog, it uses the .changes files
[14:25] <mok0> james_w: yes, but can that be set somehow?
[14:25] <james_w> normally when you build the changelog distribution is copied to the .changes
[14:25] <mok0> james_w: so I do some sed magic on the _changes file?
[14:25] <james_w> when you sync it effectively (?) puts intrepid in the .changes, regardless of what is in the changelog
[14:26] <james_w> that would work
[14:26] <mok0> james_w: Thanks! I'll try it!
[14:26] <james_w> it depends on what build system you are using, you may just be able to give it a .dsc and tell it what release to build for
[14:26] <mok0> james_w: I am using sbuild
[14:27] <ScottK> mok0: If you want a hint on adjusting .changes. see http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/syncpackage
[14:27] <persia> sbuild *should* eat anything you pass it, although you may be blocked by front-end scripts.
[14:27] <mok0> ScottK: Thx a lot!
[14:28] <mok0> Of course sbuild may not put its distro in .changes but I will check that
[14:28] <ScottK> mok0: You're welcome
[14:28] <DktrKranz> ScottK: can we sync packages directly?
[14:29] <mok0> ScottK: is that THE script being used for sync'ing?
[14:29] <ScottK> DktrKranz: Certainly not now because someone needs to accept everything and not according to the rules.
[14:29] <ScottK> mok0: No.  It's used as a backup when 'the script' is broken.
[14:29]  * ScottK whistles silently in the corner and doesn't recall at all why he knows about that script.
[14:30] <mok0> ScottK: I can probably adapt it to my local needs, though
[14:30] <ScottK> mok0: I suspected that would be the case.
[14:31]  * mok0 is happy
[14:31] <ScottK> Actually I have a better version.  Let me mail it to you.  What address?
[14:31] <ScottK> mok0: That version is a bit fragile.
[14:32] <mok0> mok0@ubuntu.com
[14:32] <mok0> :)
[14:33] <DktrKranz> ScottK: CC me, I often mangle .changes myself for my local testbuilds
[14:33] <ScottK-laptop> DktrKranz: What address?
[14:34] <DktrKranz> ScottK-laptop: dktrkranz@ubuntu.com
[14:34] <ScottK-laptop> Sent to both of you.
[14:36] <DktrKranz> thanks
[14:42] <huats> #
[14:42] <huats> sorry (wrong tab..)
[14:43] <DktrKranz> sebner: amule is gone
[14:44] <TiMiDo> hey can someone help me to get my GPG key sign?
[14:44] <sebner> DktrKranz: great \o/
[14:50] <DktrKranz> ScottK: now RC is almost gone, we should approve every upload. Did you do it via IRC last cycle too?
[14:50] <DktrKranz> or filing bugs is required?
[14:50] <ScottK> Mostly.
[14:51] <ScottK> I don't think we require a bug unless it's a new upstream.
[14:51] <DktrKranz> ok, I'll try to keep my online presence high during these days
[14:51] <mok0> TiMiDo: How can we verify you are who you say you are?
[14:51] <DktrKranz> last day is next monday, isn't it?
[14:52] <ScottK> Probably Sunday, but it varies a little release to release.
[14:52] <TiMiDo> mok0, well i can send you an email with my information and my id information. or show you my passport =)
[14:52] <persia> Also depends on one's location.  The further east you live, the later you can upload.
[14:52] <DktrKranz> ok, I'll have a look at u-u-s queue too and try to review the most important stuff
[14:52] <persia> TiMiDo, Best to find somebody nearby : the strong set is fairly widely distributed.  BigLumber can help.
[14:53] <TiMiDo> is there any ubuntu member in miami?
[14:53] <mok0> TiMiDo: I want to see you and your passport :-)
[14:55] <mok0> TiMiDo: I just googled this: http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0202/pgp.html
[14:55] <mok0> TiMiDo: perhaps you can get in touch with that guy?
[14:56] <TiMiDo> next yaer
[14:56] <TiMiDo> *year
[14:56] <ScottK> For Ubuntu there is no requirement to have your key signed by anyone.
[14:57] <TiMiDo> oh okey
[14:57] <persia> But keysigning is fun, and everyone who uses GPG benefits from being in the strong set.
[14:57] <ScottK> Right.  It's a good thing, but not a required thing.
[14:57] <TiMiDo> so you do not need you're gpg key sign. to become an ubuntu member?
[14:57] <ScottK> No.
[14:57] <TiMiDo> oh okey
[14:57] <TiMiDo> cool
[14:58] <ScottK> Some people think this is not a good thing, but that's the current rule.
[14:58]  * DktrKranz remembers the latest keysigning party: a few GPG keys, tons of wine and food \o/
[14:58] <TiMiDo> ScottK, and then how do i get my packages. on ubuntu?
[14:58] <DktrKranz> and sebner has a photo of me doing the keysign party :)
[14:59] <ScottK> TiMiDo: Initially you have to be sponsored.  I believe that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing will point you in the right direction.
[14:59] <mok0> ! contribute
[14:59] <directhex> sigh, why does virtualbox freeze if i click "settings"? i reckon it hates me
[15:00] <mok0> directhex: why don't you use kvm? Just asking...
[15:01] <directhex> mok0, workflow. i just want a full i386 intrepid desktop in front of me, and i want it yesterday, without touching any of my other stuff
[15:01] <mok0> directhex: you can do that with kvm?
[15:02] <sebner> DktrKranz: if keysign party is a codeword for wine party then yes ^^
[15:02] <persia> TiMiDo, We don't worry so much about confirming that someone with a given piece of identification controls a given key.  We focus more on the identity of a participant in the community associated with a launchpad account.  When someone does consistently good work over a period of time, the GPG associated with that launchpad account may be used to authenticated packages accepted into the archives.
[15:02] <mok0> directhex: the virtual team has done lots of work to get kvm working smoothly
[15:02] <directhex> mok0, clicky gui, co conflicting with things like 3d drivers?
[15:03] <TiMiDo> okey persia
[15:03] <mok0> directhex: I've not had any problems with kvm, even running XP
[15:04] <mok0> directhex: of course you need a dual cpu
[15:04] <mok0> directhex: a quite new one
[15:04] <pkern> Wine and cheese...
[15:07]  * sistpoty|work prefers gerstensaft and sauerbraten :P
[15:08] <sebner> sistpoty|work: sauerbraten? nice game :P
[15:09] <sistpoty|work> sebner: that's only half of the joke :P
[15:09] <directhex> mok0, so where does my clicky gui live then?
[15:10] <mok0> directhex: kvm gives you a window which is effectively the console
[15:10] <sebner> sistpoty|work: AH, once saw gerstensaft in debian new. What's this again?
[15:10] <mok0> directhex: the gui would appear inside the window
[15:10] <sistpoty|work> sebner: usually it's called beer :P (and now idea, never used the package myself)
[15:10] <sistpoty|work> s/now/no/
[15:11] <sebner> sistpoty|work: I know what beer is xD
[15:11] <directhex> mok0, so my clicky gui requires knowing all required qemu command line flags. i seeeeeee. y'know, i don't see this as being remotely comparable to vmware workstation or virtualbox
[15:11] <mok0> directhex: ok, I don't really know what clicky gui you are talking about
[15:12] <sebner> sistpoty|work: Gerstensaft is an easy to use graphical oriented frontend for
[15:12] <sebner>  sendfile(1)
[15:12]  * sistpoty|work will by a box of easy to use frontends tomorrow after work :)
[15:12] <sebner> sistpoty|work: xD, btw, I've heard about sauerbraten but is it the same as "schweinsbraten"?
[15:13] <sistpoty|work> sebner: almost, but it's more sour
[15:13] <sebner> sistpoty|work: kk :)
[15:13] <directhex> mok0, the ability to create & configure a VM without reading a manpage, zero-config automatic NATted networks, etc
[15:13] <directhex> mok0, you know, the way we have gnome instead of xterm
[15:14] <mok0> directhex: ah, you mean something like the virtual machine manager?
[15:16] <directhex> ehm... yes, that sounds right
[15:16] <mok0> directhex: package virt-manager
[15:32] <superm1> i would have never known about virt-manager when installing kvm.  it's not recommends or suggests or anything
[15:32] <superm1> i would think it should be one of those..
[15:33] <mok0> superm1: yes
[15:33] <superm1> perhaps the server team doesn't want it recommends for kvm though?
[15:33] <superm1> soren, ^?
[15:34] <mok0> superm1: I've made my VMs manually and have not figured out how to manage them via virt-manager
[15:35] <mok0> superm1: I suppose it could be done, since all the configs are in an XML file...
[15:38] <soren> superm1: Definitely not recommends. Suggests... Hmm, perhaps.
[15:40] <mok0> yay! sbuild overrides distribution in debian/changelog
[15:40]  * mok0 is pleased
[15:53] <soren> mok0: Hm?
[15:53] <cody-somerville> mok0, so does pbuilder
[15:54] <mok0> soren: I am pleased that I can compile hardy packages with sbuild --dist=intrepid and get the right distribution field in the .changes file
[15:54] <soren> Oh.
[15:54] <mok0> Unfortunately, there is no --distribution switch for dpkg-buildpackage
[15:55]  * mok0 things that we should leave that field alone and let it just be "unstable"
[15:55] <soren> mok0: -Ddistribution=intrepid
[15:55] <mok0> s/things/thinKs/
[15:56] <mok0> soren: huh?
[15:56] <mok0>  -D     Check build dependencies and conflicts; abort if  unsatis‐
[15:56] <mok0>               fied.
[15:57] <soren> mok0: Sorry, that was for dpkg-genchanges.
[15:57] <mok0> That debian/changelog field does not logically belong there
[15:57] <mok0> That's why I think we should not use it
[15:58] <soren> mok0: You don't think the changelog should list which version you're uploading to?
[15:58] <mok0> soren: exactly
[15:59] <soren> And why is that, you say?
[15:59] <mok0> soren: you can have the same version-release package working on all distributions...
[16:00] <mok0> soren: applications and packages are distribution unaware
[16:01] <soren> Um.. No, they're not.
[16:01] <mok0> soren: how so?
[16:02] <soren> Package relationships in debian/control are very much distribution specific.
[16:02] <mok0> soren: of course
[16:02] <soren> ...so is lots of other things.
[16:02] <mok0> but nothing depends on the _name_ of the distribution
[16:02] <soren> Paths to certain applications, libraries, names for various things, etc, etc.
[16:02] <mok0> soren: of course
[16:03] <soren> No, nothing depends on the name.
[16:03] <mok0> soren: but if I have a package with a straight C program (say) I could compile that same version on the whole range of distributions
[16:03] <soren> Very few pacakges would have to be different if Intrepid had been called Itchy, instead, but they certainly depend on what "Intrepid" means.
[16:04] <soren> ...namely this particular version of Ubuntu.
[16:04] <mok0> soren: why should I have to add a changelog entry every time I compile? It doesn't make sense
[16:04] <soren> mok0: Right.
[16:04] <soren> mok0: That's the difference between upstream projects and packages.
[16:04] <soren> mok0: Upstream projects are (supposed to be) distro/version agnostic.
[16:04] <soren> Packages are not. By design.
[16:04] <mok0> soren: exactly. So while the distribution matters in terms of dependencies etc, the changelog should not contain it
[16:05] <soren> mok0: So that people installing your update will know what you changed and can figure out if they're interested inyour change.
[16:05] <soren> mok0: But the changelog is for the package, not the upstream project.
[16:05] <mok0> soren: that is needed only if I _had_ to make some changes to make the package compile under, intrepid, say
[16:06] <soren> mok0: What is "that" in "that is needed..."?
[16:06] <mok0> soren: but then, it may still compile on the older versions
[16:07] <mok0> soren, f.ex. if my program suddenly doesn't compile under intrepid, I fix that. But if I am smart, the version may still compile on the older ubuntu versions
[16:07] <soren> mok0: It's not a question of whether it compiles.
[16:08] <mok0> soren: you have not convinced me
[16:08] <soren> It's a question of which version of Ubuntu it's meant to integrate with. There's much more to packaging than getting stuff to compile.
[16:08] <bddebian> Heya gang
[16:08] <sistpoty|work> hi bddebian
[16:08] <soren> Hey, bddebian.
[16:08] <bddebian> Hi sistpoty|work, soren
[16:09] <mok0> I understand that. I am only saying that the 3rd item in debian/changelog is irrelevant
[16:09] <soren> I hear you.
[16:09] <soren> and I strongly disagree.
[16:09] <mok0> soren: put it in a separate file if you want
[16:10] <soren> mok0: Huh?
[16:10] <soren> mok0: A version->distro mapping file?
[16:10] <soren> mok0: That's just silly.
[16:10] <cody-somerville> the distribution field in the changelog is used to determine where you're uploading to
[16:10] <mok0> soren: if you insist on having the distro info in debian/ it'd be better to have a separate file for that
[16:11] <soren> mok0: So you want just a file that says "intrepid2?
[16:11] <soren> mok0: So you want just a file that says "intrepid"?
[16:11] <mok0> cody-somerville: I know, thats what I am bitching about :-)
[16:11] <mok0> soren: for example
[16:11] <soren> But that destroys the history.
[16:11] <cody-somerville> exactly
[16:11] <sistpoty|work> mok0: I find it quite useful when reading past changelog entries actually, but apart from that it has little to no meaning
[16:12] <cody-somerville> It has a lot of meaning!
[16:12] <soren> debian/changelog tells you which package you changed, when you did it, what the version was, what you changed, and the context in which your found the change to be suitable.
[16:12] <mok0> anyway, in Debian it's always "unstable"
[16:12] <cody-somerville> mok0, thats not true!
[16:12] <soren> The latter (the context) is precisely the version of Ubuntu that particular package version is destined for.
[16:12] <soren> mok0: This is not Debian.
[16:12] <cody-somerville> soren, it isn't true anyway
[16:12] <soren> cody-somerville: Agreed.
[16:13] <mok0> soren: I have packages with a bunch of changelog entries that says "compiled for gutsy", compiled for hardy, ...
[16:13] <mok0> cody-somerville: ok that was a bold statement
[16:13] <soren> mok0: I'm not sure I follow.
[16:13] <soren> In fact, I'm sure I don't :)
[16:13] <cody-somerville> mok0, How so? Want me to give you examples of where it says something besides unstable?
[16:14] <mok0> cody-somerville: I agree with you, I admitted that _my_ conjecture was bold
[16:14] <cody-somerville> Ah, okay.
[16:15] <mok0> soren: anyway, I can now override that field with sbuild :-)
[16:15] <cody-somerville> mok0, there are other setups as well that make the dist field in the changelog more relevant
[16:16] <mok0> cody-somerville: yes?
[16:16] <cody-somerville> mok0, and I agree, people should get an archive admin to pocket copy the package instead of uploading a new version for just building in a different suit or pocket or whatever you want to call it
[16:17] <mok0> Perhaps there should be a "wildcard" allowed
[16:17]  * soren disagrees (in the general case)
[16:17] <cody-somerville> I disagree as well
[16:17] <cody-somerville> Why would you ever use the wildcard?
[16:17] <soren> cody-somerville: With yourself?
[16:17] <mok0> cody-somerville: if the package is so simple that it would work on all versions of ubuntu (say)
[16:17] <cody-somerville> soren, oh, your comment was in response to my comment?
[16:17] <soren> cody-somerville: Yes.
[16:18] <cody-somerville> soren, I'm interested to hear why
[16:18] <soren> cody-somerville: So am I.
[16:18] <soren> cody-somerville: You're the one proposing a change, so the burden of proof lies with you :)
[16:18] <mok0> Or, there could be a syntax " >= hardy" f.ex.
[16:18] <soren> mok0: Nonsense.
[16:19] <soren> mok0: There's no way you can determine if your package will work with any future version of anything.
[16:19] <mok0> soren: meaning that this version of this package works with all releases after hardy
[16:19] <soren> mok0: And how would you know this?
[16:19] <soren> mok0: You don't know what the future might bring.
[16:19]  * sistpoty|work has a glassbowl, but won't lend it to anyone *g*
[16:19] <mok0> soren: of course not. But it will until another entry changes that
[16:19] <cody-somerville> soren, uploads to just have something built has little value
[16:19] <cody-somerville> soren, we copy packages from debian to sync them, we don't "upload" them
[16:20] <cody-somerville> soren, and the same happens when we create a new distroseries
[16:20] <soren> cody-somerville: No.
[16:20] <cody-somerville> soren, No what?
[16:20] <soren> cody-somerville: There's a huge difference between copying something from Debian and copying it between pockets, suites or whatever.
[16:22] <soren> mok0: I'm inclined to just say that you have to trust me when I say that having the ubuntu version in the changelog is very, very helpful when you're browsing back through the revisions a package has gone through.
[16:22] <mok0> soren: whatever the difference, the same, unchanged package could work on all known distributions.
[16:22] <soren> mok0: But I suspect you won't buy into that :)
[16:22] <cody-somerville> mok0, did you know that you can specify multiple distributions? ;]
[16:23] <soren> cody-somerville: Uploads to have something built is sensible.
[16:23] <mok0> soren: I am not forbidding you to write stufff in changelog
[16:23] <soren> mok0: That's not what I'm talking about.
[16:23] <soren> mok0: It's silly to put "uploading to gutsy" in the body of the changelog entry.
[16:23] <sistpoty|work> mok0: I think you're mixing up the problem between to distinct distributions (e.g. debian vs. ubuntu) and (sequential) release series, for which you want separate version numbers (dapper, edgy, feisty, ...)
[16:23] <soren> mok0: It's valuable information for each and every upload.
[16:24] <mok0> soren: debian entries all have "unstable". So you dont know which Debian distro a particular version went into
[16:24] <soren> mok0: This is not Debian.
[16:24] <cody-somerville> mok0, and your premise is wrong
[16:24] <mok0> soren: but we use the same changelog  syntax
[16:24] <mok0> cody-somerville: plz explain
[16:25] <cody-somerville> mok0, how do you think one uploads to experimental instead of unstable?
[16:25] <soren> mok0: Debian packages can have non-unstable uploads.
[16:25] <mok0> cody-somerville: I know that, but you could use a program parameter to tell
[16:25] <soren> mok0: E.g. the Debian equivalents of SRU's (I forget what they call them).
[16:25] <soren> mok0: But that throws away the history! That's the point.
[16:26] <cody-somerville> mok0, a program parameter to tell?
[16:26] <mok0> cody-somerville: ... to tell the system to upload into experimental
[16:27] <soren> cody-somerville: Uploads to have something rebuilt against a new toolchian, new libraries requires a new version number, hence a new upload.
[16:27] <NCommander> soren, proposed-updates
[16:27] <mok0> cody-somerville: ... and in fact it is in the .changes file
[16:27] <soren> NCommander: Right, thanks.
[16:27] <mok0> cody-somerville: so I now figured out how to circumvent the system that I hate :-)
[16:28] <cody-somerville> Okay, I want to understand your argument better.
[16:28] <cody-somerville> mok0, why do you hate it?
[16:29] <mok0> cody-somerville: because I hate to have to create a new changelog entry and a new release string every time I have to rebuild a package for a new distribution, even if the software is unchanged
[16:29] <mok0> cody-somerville: ... or if I have to backport the exact same package
[16:29] <soren> mok0: That only works locally. Not in Ubuntu.
[16:29] <mok0> soren: yes
[16:30] <soren> mok0: Because you can't build the same version of a package for multiple distros.
[16:30] <mok0> soren: which in fact is not logical
[16:30] <soren> mok0: Yes, it is.
[16:30] <cody-somerville> mok0, that isn't quite true
[16:30] <soren> mok0: They binaries would all have the same filename.
[16:31] <soren> mok0: ...and when you're using a pool based repository, that doesn't work out.
[16:31] <soren> ...and if you're not... well, then you've got an entirely differenct set of problems.
[16:31] <mok0> soren: yes, but you would never be able to tell if there are significant changes or not
[16:31] <soren> mok0: Huh?
[16:32] <sistpoty|work> mok0: from the binary: that will most probably be different than the source... but maybe you could just override the binary version number somehow
[16:32] <mok0> soren: I may think "hmm this version 1.2-3 is probably newer than this version 1.2-2
[16:32] <mok0> soren: where in fact they are exactly the same and contain the same files
[16:32] <cody-somerville> sistpoty|work, yes
[16:32] <soren> mok0: They're not going to be identical.
[16:32] <soren> mok0: They're built with different toolchains.
[16:33] <cody-somerville> sistpoty|work, Infact, I think thats the optimal solution.
[16:33] <mok0> soren: no, they may link with different version of shared libraries
[16:33] <soren> And the changes are listed in the changelog.
[16:33] <sistpoty|work> cody-somerville: only that "somehow" is the vague part of it ;)
[16:33] <soren> mok0: I don't know if you realise this, but a package built for intrepid automatically lands in Jaunty when Jaunty opens.
[16:34] <soren> ...so you don't need to rebuild just because there's a new Ubuntu version to build against.
[16:34] <cody-somerville> sistpoty|work, it isn't that difficult actually and I'm pretty sure we have plans to provide the functionality in PPAs soon instead of having to reupload with the dist field changed.
[16:34] <lfaraone> james_w, morgs , It'll be a while before I have a chance (around 1500 EST)
[16:34] <mok0> soren: the way I see it, a distribution is a set of software packages with a specified version-release string.
[16:34] <soren> cody-somerville: I thinkn we already support that.
[16:34] <soren> mok0: Go on.
[16:35] <mok0> soren: the packages do not _necessarily_ need to care what distribution they are part of.
[16:35] <cody-somerville> mok0, they don't
[16:35] <mok0> rephrasing: the _source_ packages
[16:36] <cody-somerville> mok0, the changelog is for history only
[16:36] <soren> mok0: Not if you're toying around with them on your local system. If you're building a distribution, it's essential information.
[16:36] <cody-somerville> mok0, as you have discovered, it is entirely possible to change it
[16:36] <mok0> soren: but you have that information already; it's part of the specification of the distribution
[16:36] <cody-somerville> mok0, it is just a matter of convenience that it defaults to whats in the changelog
[16:36] <soren> mok0: No, no, no, no.
[16:36] <soren> mok0: It's not.
[16:37] <soren> mok0: A package's existance in Intrepid does not mean that it was uploadin in that particular context.
[16:37] <soren> It might have been uploaded back in Warty and never changed since then.
[16:37] <mok0> soren: right
[16:38] <mok0> soren: so the _source_ package has not changed
[16:38] <soren> Nor the binary.
[16:38] <soren> We dont' rebuild everything whenever we open a new distroseries.
[16:38] <mok0> soren: Aha
[16:39] <soren> 15:33:50 < soren> mok0: I don't know if you realise this, but a package built for intrepid automatically lands in Jaunty when Jaunty opens.
[16:39] <mok0> I thought everything was recompiled using the current toolchain
[16:39] <soren> No, no.
[16:39] <soren> We can't.
[16:39] <laga> why not?
[16:39] <soren> The binaries would be named the same, and since we're using a pool structure in the repository, that doesn't work.
[16:40] <soren> Example:
[16:40] <laga> ah, yes. same problem for the ppa
[16:40] <cody-somerville> mok0, can you really imagine doing complex merges without the distroseries in the changelog? :P
[16:40] <geser> and it would be also a fun figuring out the correct build-order and a bigger fun if a central package fails to build
[16:40] <mok0> cody-somerville: ok, ok. I admit that it's useful when doing merges
[16:41] <soren> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/o/openhackware/
[16:41] <soren> That directory contains three versions of openhackware.
[16:41] <mok0> soren: of course one could also have a separate pool for each distro
[16:41] <soren> these three versions are the ones that were current in dapper->intrepid
[16:42] <soren> mok0: That would make the storage requirements explode.
[16:42] <soren> 15:31:04 < soren> mok0: ...and when you're using a pool based repository, that doesn't work out.
[16:42] <soren> 15:31:16 < soren> ...and if you're not... well, then you've got an entirely differenct set of problems.
[16:42] <soren> That's the gist of the different set of problems.
[16:42] <cody-somerville> mok0, whole point of using a pool is so that you only need to retain one copy of the file
[16:43] <mok0> cody-somerville: ok, I understand
[16:44] <mok0> soren: so what is the problem building binary .debs with the same version-release string for different distros?
[16:44] <cody-somerville> there is none
[16:45] <soren> mok0: None if you're playing around with it locally.
[16:45] <cody-somerville> (if I understand the question correctly)
[16:45] <soren> (same disclaimer)
[16:45] <soren> :)
[16:45] <soren> mok0: Could you elaborate a bit
[16:45] <soren> ?
[16:46] <cody-somerville> soren, so I still stand that we shouldn't do uploads to have something rebuilt in a different distroseries as long as the binary version is automatically mangled.
[16:47] <mok0> soren: you said that it was not possible to rebuild all packages using the new toolchain
[16:47] <soren> mok0: Right.
[16:47] <soren> mok0: Because the resulting binaries would have the same filenames as the old ones.
[16:47] <mok0> soren: we discussed the pool structure, and you showed us a source package
[16:48] <mok0> soren: sure they have the same name, but they live in another directory
[16:48] <mok0> soren: or could live
[16:48] <mok0> soren: are you saying that the same pool structure exists for binary packages?
[16:49] <cody-somerville> soren, source packages live side by side with binary packages
[16:49] <cody-somerville> er
[16:49] <cody-somerville> mok0,
[16:49] <mok0> cody-somerville: makes no sense to me
[16:49] <cody-somerville> mok0, why?
[16:50] <mok0> cody-somerville: because I would like to recompile the whole caboodle of packages using the current toolchain
[16:50] <mok0> and libraries
[16:51] <cody-somerville> mok0, How is it sane to lie and say "this rebuilt version of this package is the same as whats already there so I'll just replace the file in the archive"?
[16:51] <mok0> cody-somerville: I actually assumed the core-devs were doing that
[16:51] <soren> mok0: Sorry, I chose a bad example.
[16:52] <soren> mok0: The binaries live in the same directory as the source package.
[16:52] <mok0> soren: ok, so I understand why it wont work, but I don't see why it could not be made to work
[16:52] <soren> mok0: No, we never do that. We couldn't even if we wanted to.
[16:52] <cody-somerville> mok0, because when you rebuild, the package changes
[16:52] <cody-somerville> You can't say its the same version
[16:52] <cody-somerville> because it is not
[16:52] <mok0> cody-somerville: yes, the _binary_ package
[16:53] <cody-somerville> mok0, right binary package versions don't have to match source package version
[16:53] <mok0> However, the convention is that the binary package inherits the version-release string of the source package
[16:53] <mok0> ... and changelog documents (should) changes to the source packages
[16:53] <cody-somerville> I agree completely.
[16:54] <cody-somerville> Its just easier to change the source package and re-upload at this time.
[16:54] <mok0> cody-somerville: ... because of the shortcomings of the pool structure???
[16:54] <cody-somerville> no
[16:54] <slytheri1> james_w: ping
[16:54] <james_w> hi slytheri1
[16:55] <soren> mok0: Ok, answer this:
[16:55] <cody-somerville> mok0, because there is no interface for you or me to make changes to the archive except via an upload at this time.
[16:55] <soren> Why would you want to rebuild against the new toolchain?
[16:55] <mok0> OK, none of you have convinced me why it is not reasonable to have the same version-release in several distribution.
[16:55] <slytheri1> james_w: Do you plan to take care of fop bug today? If you are too busy then I will ask persia or geser.
[16:55] <james_w> slytheri1: what was the fop bug?
[16:55] <cody-somerville> mok0, its already possible and it is!! :P
[16:55]  * mok0 's head just exploded
[16:56] <slytheri1> james_w: bug #268930
[16:56] <cody-somerville> mok0, we have packages in Intrepid with the "version-release string" of unstable, experimental, hardy, gutsy, etc. etc. etc.
[16:56] <sebner> ScottK: around?
[16:56] <james_w> slytheri1: best ask someone else.
[16:56] <mok0> cody-somerville: great. That's what I want. So does this package have N senseless changelog entries?
[16:56] <ScottK> 'ish.
[16:56] <soren> mok0: Why would you want to rebuild the package against a new toolchain? Because you want your package to work in a new context? That's what that field is meant to describe!
[16:57] <Laney> sistpoty|work: Hey, do you care about any uncommon prog langs besides GHC? I'm thinking about trying to get agda into Jaunty and was wondering if you'd take any interest in that?
[16:57] <mok0> soren: perhaps the compile optimizes better so the application runs 200% faster
[16:57] <Laney> ...
[16:57] <Laney> What a badly timed netsplit
[16:57] <cody-somerville> mok0, no, they're copied.
[16:57] <soren> mok0: And how is that not a change that is relevant to docuemtn in your changelog?
[16:57]  * ScottK grabs a Gentoo Penguin and smacks mok0 with it.
[16:58] <mok0> soren: because you are using the same source package
[16:58] <soren> mok0: So?
[16:58] <sebner> ScottK: you remember Ari, who requestet the amule update?
[16:58] <mok0> soren: you just give sbuild a different switch
[16:58] <soren> mok0: You are changing something.
[16:58] <ScottK> sebner: Yeah.
[16:58] <soren> mok0: Why would you not let your users know what you changed?
[16:59] <cody-somerville> soren, rebuilding the source package isn't changing the source package
[16:59] <mok0> soren: nothing has changed in the source package
[16:59] <soren> cody-somerville: I didn't say that.
[16:59] <soren> mok0: You are changing the environment!
[16:59] <cody-somerville> soren, recompiling it with different tools shouldn't see someone change the changelog of the source package
[16:59] <sebner> ScottK: I just got a mail from him. He also filed a bug for updating "kadu" but no one is responding and so he asks me if I can update it. would need a FFe, is a sync .. What do you think?
[16:59] <mok0> soren: ... which is why the binary package lives in a directory specific to the new distribution
[17:00] <soren> mok0: If I put sugar in my coffee, I might not be changing the sugar, but I'm sure as heck changing something.
[17:00] <mok0> soren: but the version-release string tells you it was build from the same source package
[17:00] <ScottK> sebner: IIRC amule was fairly broken.  How's Kadu these days?
[17:00] <soren> mok0: Think of the consequences:
[17:00] <soren> mok0: a) Much higher storage requirements for mirrors
[17:00] <sebner> ScottK: no open bugs (besides the please update bug)
[17:01] <soren> mok0: b) Upgrades would mean downloading and installing new versions of *EVERYTHING* regardless of anything changed for them or not.
[17:01] <sistpoty|work> Laney: well, I would have some interest, but not enough spare time :(
[17:01] <ScottK> sebner: Absent some compelling rationale, no.  Go find and RC bug to fix.
[17:01] <Laney> sistpoty|work: I'm trying to pre-solicit a reviewer is all :)
[17:01] <soren> mok0: What is this "version-release string" you keep referring to?
[17:01] <sistpoty|work> Laney: heh... I guess I'll be up for a review then ;)
[17:02] <mok0> soren: package_1.0-1
[17:02] <ScottK> soren: OTOH, we have packages that have not been touched in the archive since Edgy and some of them can't even be built now.
[17:02] <Laney> \o
[17:02] <DktrKranz> sebner: a user wants a SRU for your amule upload, mind having a look at it? ;)
[17:02] <mok0> soren: version relates to upstream, release to packaging
[17:02] <sebner> DktrKranz: *hrhr*
[17:02] <soren> cody-somerville: If you dont' change the changelog, who will a user know if he's interested in the new binary version he's about to download?
[17:03] <soren> ScottK: I'm missing your point.
[17:03] <sebner> ScottK: ok I write him ... /me also isn't able to read the polish Changelog to see if something important was fixed ...
[17:03] <ScottK> In Debian, don't binNMU's have some automagic binary only changelog futzing.
[17:03]  * DktrKranz is not comfortable with version bumps in SRUs, but that's the fact now
[17:03] <soren> cody-somerville: Sorry, I meant "how will a user know..."
[17:03] <cody-somerville> soren, automagic binary only changelog futzing as ScottK says Debian might do
[17:04] <ScottK> soren: I agree rebuilding everything just for fun is excessive, but OTOH we have stuff that could use it that isn't rebuilt.  It's not always clear one way or the other.
[17:04] <cody-somerville> soren, because if I take that pacakge and recompile it myself... your changelog is only confusing and irrelevant
[17:04] <soren> cody-somerville: And what will happen to that with the next source upload? It will disappear, and the hsitory is borken.
[17:04] <cody-somerville> soren, no because you haven't changed the source package
[17:04] <ScottK> The source history isn't broken.
[17:04] <mok0> soren: but compile history doesn't belong in the source package
[17:04] <sebner> DktrKranz: SRU, backport, Security update? what about backporting?
[17:04] <sistpoty|work> actually in an ideal world, we'd rebuild everything until it doesn't change a single bit (and other distributions did this in the past, including working around timestamps and stuff)... but that would just take too long
[17:05] <soren> cody-somerville: I've changed the context in which it's meant to be used.
[17:05] <mok0> soren: it logically belongs with the distribution
[17:05] <soren> mok0: where would you put it instead?
[17:05] <cody-somerville> soren, then you're documenting a change in debian/control
[17:05] <soren> mok0: The source package is the only source of information.
[17:05] <DktrKranz> sebner: my preferred choice, unless real fixes for ubuntu bugs
[17:05] <sebner> DktrKranz: /me checks
[17:05] <mok0> soren: I don't know where, because there is no convention, but compile history doesn't belong with the source package.
[17:05] <soren> mok0: debian/changelog is the distribution's.
[17:05] <cody-somerville> soren, Unless you force the source package to be built with the new version of gcc for example then your rebuild with the new version of gcc is irrelevant to the source package
[17:06] <sebner> DktrKranz: real fixes for ubuntu bugs? I thought amule was pretty b0rken?
[17:06] <mok0> soren: ok, so this is where we don't agree
[17:06] <ScottK> sebner: I think maybe POX knows about Polish IM stuff.  Maybe he'd offer an opinion.
[17:06] <mok0> soren: that is not clear at all
[17:06] <soren> mok0: You need to quit thinking of source packages as a special sort of upstream project. It's not.
[17:06] <slytheri1> james_w: there? did you get the number?
[17:06] <sebner> ScottK: worth that whole stuff? 1 week before release, no open bugs in ubuntu ,....
[17:06] <DktrKranz> sebner: if it's br0ken = SRU is fine
[17:06] <mok0> soren: I do think of them as independent objects with some properties
[17:06] <soren> cody-somerville: No, it's not.
[17:07] <DktrKranz> sebner: if it's cool = backport is fine
[17:07] <james_w> slytheri1: yeah, I said you would be best of finding someone else
[17:07] <sebner> DktrKranz: let me check =)
[17:07] <slytheri1> james_w: didn't see that.
[17:07] <mok0> soren: I think of the distribution as composed of a set of packages
[17:07] <soren> cody-somerville: You're not uploading it blindly. You're uploading it with the specific purpose of getting it rebuilt against a new toolchain. The package itself holds its own history. It's where you're supposed to document these things.
[17:07] <slytheri1> persia: geser: Can anyone of you sponsor a debdiff to fop?
[17:07] <sebner> ScottK: of course I'd do the FFe but doesn't seem that imoprtant to me
[17:08] <ScottK> sebner: Right.  I just suspect POX could tell us if it's important.  I know he sponsors some related pacakges in Debian.
[17:08] <cody-somerville> soren, we only upload because that is the only way for us to do a rebuild
[17:08] <soren> mok0: It *is* clear! Source packages is the only thing we as developers can change to make changes to Ubuntu.
[17:09] <sebner> ScottK: well he is afk currently. should I try to find another polish speaker?
[17:09] <ScottK> Sure.
[17:09]  * soren needs to go to dinner
[17:09] <sebner> ScottK: kk
[17:09] <ScottK> But a few hours won't matter.
[17:09] <mok0> soren: errh, yes, but that is not true for packages in universe
[17:10] <mok0> soren: certain files and settings do matter for the distribution, and for convienience those are packaged too
[17:10] <mok0> soren: ... and drivers etc
[17:11] <sebner> ScottK: sure but he is away since 67 hours
[17:11] <cody-somerville> To conclude, mok0: distribution field *is* useful. Do you see why now?
[17:12] <mok0> cody-somerville: I see that the information is useful, yes, but I don't agree on its placement in changelog
[17:12] <cody-somerville> mok0, why?
[17:12] <cody-somerville> mok0, the changelog describes uploads
[17:13] <cody-somerville> mok0, it lets us know the origin of changes
[17:13] <mok0> cody-somerville: in my mind it describes changes to the packaging
[17:13] <cody-somerville> mok0, yes
[17:13] <cody-somerville> mok0, and the distribution field describes the origin of the change
[17:14] <mok0> cody-somerville: not whether the package is now compiled for some random distro
[17:14] <cody-somerville> mok0, it has nothing to do with compiling
[17:14] <mok0> cody-somerville: it has nothing to do with uploading
[17:14] <cody-somerville> mok0, you're wrong
[17:15] <mok0> cody-somerville: the .changes file has something to do with uploading
[17:15] <cody-somerville> mok0, okay, fine, lets argue over semantics
[17:15] <mok0> cody-somerville: which is why I am happy since I can sed replace in there :-)
[17:15] <geser> slytheri1: hi, I was busy the last days/week and didn't follow development much so I'd need to figure out what's the current state for uploads
[17:16]  * sebner winks geser =)
[17:16] <cody-somerville> mok0, the changelog contains more than just the last changelog entry
[17:16] <slytheri1> geser: ok. It is a small bug fix. Let me know when you have time. I may be offline for an hour in some time. But I will be back later.
[17:16] <mok0> cody-somerville: so seeing that I can't convince anyone about my brilliant suggestion, I can now live with it... :-P
[17:17] <cody-somerville> mok0, you even said yourself that it is helpful when doing merges
[17:17] <cody-somerville> mok0, do you suggest to have another file that describes the package version and where the change was made? What benefit does that provide?
[17:18] <sebner> ScottK: wth? They want me to pay for it xD bad boys
[17:18] <mok0> cody-somerville: http://pastebin.com/f65e632b5
[17:19] <mok0> cody-somerville: that is what I find annoying
[17:19] <cody-somerville> mok0, yes but that doesn't make the distribution field any less useful
[17:19] <cody-somerville> mok0, people are just abusing the system
[17:20] <mok0> cody-somerville: What I want is not to need to make dumb changelog entries like that
[17:21] <POX> ScottK: what package? kadu?
[17:21] <mok0> cody-somerville: and I figured out how to do it. I can live with the distro field if it actually matters to the source package
[17:21] <cody-somerville> \o/
[17:21] <mok0> cody-somerville: :-)
[17:22] <cody-somerville> wait a tick
[17:22] <cody-somerville> is that an actual changelog?
[17:22] <sebner> ScottK: http://tinyurl.com/67t7p3
[17:22] <mok0> cody-somerville: yeah, a local package
[17:22] <cody-somerville> okay, few
[17:23] <cody-somerville> mok0, oh yea!
[17:23] <cody-somerville> for local packages
[17:23] <cody-somerville> no need to change the source package at all
[17:23] <mok0> cody-somerville: contains non-distributable binary
[17:23] <cody-somerville> ever
[17:23]  * geser waves back to sebner
[17:23] <mok0> cody-somerville: right
[17:24] <sebner> POX: ha! you are here xD
[17:24] <POX> I sponsored kadu, yes
[17:24] <sebner> POX: http://tinyurl.com/67t7p3  <--- not important enough for a FFe, right?
[17:25] <ScottK> POX: We're a few days before release, so the question is, should we jam the update into Intrepid or not?
[17:26] <POX> 0.6.0.1-1 to 0.6.0.2-2, right?
[17:26] <ScottK> sebner: ^^?
[17:26] <sebner> POX: yep
[17:27] <sebner> ScottK: hmm???
[17:27] <sebner> At least it's building without problems
[17:28] <POX> I don't use kadu, I use ekg2; /me is reading the changelog
[17:28] <sebner> As far as I understand only small and minor bugfixes/improvements
[17:28] <POX> I can also ask Debian maintainer (he's one of the upstream's)
[17:29]  * sistpoty|work decides to go home... cya
[17:29] <sebner> POX: well, but you can read the Changelog ^^
[17:29] <POX> looks like one crash is fixed (if one rejects incoming file transfer)
[17:29]  * sebner -> dinner
[17:29] <POX> I don't know how often it happens, though
[17:29] <sebner> bbl
[17:30] <POX> I'll mail Patryk (kadu maintainer)
[17:33] <ScottK> POX: Thanks.
[17:46] <POX> sebner: (kadu) btw, it's new upstream release, but if that's why you need FFe, I'd say go ahead (new features in kadu are introduced in 0.6.5, 0.6.0.x are just bug fix releases)
[17:46] <POX> I asked Patryk to add a comment in this bug if fixes are critical
[17:49] <sebner> POX: thx
[17:58] <highvoltage> any way I could get my mouse and keyboard working again on intrepid?
[17:58] <joaopinto> highvoltage, did your kbd and mouse stopped working after a new install or an upgrade ?
[17:59] <highvoltage> joaopinto: upgrade
[18:00] <highvoltage> on two different machines :/
[18:00] <joaopinto> highvoltage, lets continue on #ubuntu+1
[18:00] <highvoltage> ok
[18:13] <chrisccoulson> Dear motu-release, I am currently looking at bug 287332 against evolution-sharp. it seems that the current version does not support our current version of evolution-data-server (it won't even build against it now), which has broken beagle. there is a new upstream version (0.18) which supports the new version of e-d-s. would there be any chance to get it in to intrepid at this late stage, bearing in mind that our current version doesn
[18:13] <chrisccoulson> i don't mind working on packaging it
[18:17] <RainCT> chrisccoulson: your message got cut at "our current version doesn"
[18:17] <chrisccoulson> 't work at all
[18:17] <chrisccoulson> it didn't cut much off;)
[18:17] <RainCT> chrisccoulson: and anyway, I guess I'd be better if you wrote this on the bug and subscribed motu-release to it
[18:17] <RainCT> heh
[18:17] <chrisccoulson> perhaps. i just thought the response might be slightly quicker in here;)
[18:19] <RainCT> ScottK: ^
[18:44] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: Did you text your wxwidgets fixes with other packages to make sure you didn't break the other rdepends?
[18:46] <marcin_ant> Hi all
[18:46] <ScottK-laptop> Hello
[18:46] <marcin_ant> I got a question about packaging
[18:47] <RainCT> Hi marcin_ant, just ask
[18:47] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: I'm not sure we wouldn't be better off to hold this for an SRU where it can get more testing in proposed.
[18:47] <dfiloni> ScottK-laptop: I've tested it with amule
[18:47] <dfiloni> ScottK-laptop: SRU?
[18:47] <ScottK-laptop> Post release update
[18:47] <marcin_ant> I prepared a bunch of packages that are in debian and ubuntu repository (universe) but they are maintained (kind of) by someone
[18:48] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: How about pgadmin?
[18:48] <ScottK-laptop> ...3
[18:48] <dfiloni> ScottK-laptop: uhm, I don't know, wx is a very big library so I think you are right
[18:48] <marcin_ant> I changed a lot - new upstream versions, new debian policy version, switched to cdbs etc.
[18:48] <dfiloni> I haven't tested pgadmin
[18:49] <ScottK-laptop> marcin_ant: Totally reworking the packaging without good reason is frowned upon.
[18:49] <marcin_ant> and I would like to know if is there some _userfriendly_ step by step manual what should I do with these packages and how to contribute to community?
[18:50] <ScottK-laptop> marcin_ant: I think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing will point you in the right direction.
[18:50] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: I've asked to have the upload rejected.
[18:50] <RainCT> marcin_ant: I think the best in this case would be to get in touch with the Debian Maintainer and tell him about your changes
[18:52] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: It's rejected.  Once Intrepid is released, see about getting it in an SRU.
[18:52] <dfiloni> ScottK-laptop: I'm a member of motu-sru, so I know about the procedure :)
[18:53] <ScottK-laptop> Ah.  Great.
[18:53] <RainCT> marcin_ant: .. to see if you can get him to take over all or part of the changes, and tell him that in case he wants a co-maintainer you'd be interested (that last part only if you are interested, of course :))
[18:53] <ScottK-laptop> dfiloni: So you can even predict it's likely to get approved... ;-)
[18:54] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: you know - this wiki page is pretty good but doesn't answer few simple questions: what should I put into Maintainer field of 'control' file?
[18:54] <marcin_ant> should I keep original maintainer there?
[18:54] <RainCT> marcin_ant: run update-maintainer and see what it does :)
[18:55] <ScottK-laptop> marcin_ant: Or look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[18:55] <RainCT> marcin_ant: if the package is in main/restricted the maintainer should be Core Devs and if it's in universe/multiverse MOTU, and the Debian Maintainer is moved to an XSBC-Original-Maintainer field
[18:55] <ScottK-laptop> RainCT: It's better to understand the policy than just blindly run scripts.
[18:56] <RainCT> ScottK-laptop: sure
[18:58] <marcin_ant> and what about copyright file? I should be something like "This package was debianized.... bla bla"
[18:58] <ScottK-laptop> !packagingguide
[18:58] <ScottK-laptop> marcin_ant: ^^
[18:59] <marcin_ant> but these packages doesn't have this section just simple license copy/paste - so what then? should I put original maintainer there or put my name?
[18:59] <ScottK-laptop> If you're building on someone else's packages, don't change that bit.
[19:04] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: but copyright file is not something like in debian maint-guide - generated by dh_make - it's just license copy/paste
[19:04] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: should I change this to something like in maint-guide or not?
[19:04] <ScottK-laptop> Ah.  Then that's a packaging bug that should be fixed
[19:04] <ScottK-laptop> Yes
[19:06] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: ok - so, question is: how should it be fixed? Should I put original maintainer credentials in "This package was debianized... " ? Or should I put my credentials there?
[19:06] <ScottK-laptop> The original one
[19:07] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: ok
[19:07] <ScottK-laptop> They debianized it, even if they didn't do a greaet job
[19:07] <ScottK-laptop> greaet/great
[19:10] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: ok I understand, but in Maintainer field...
[19:10] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: I should do this: If the package is in universe or multiverse, the Maintainer field will be set to Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>???
[19:10] <ScottK-laptop> Yes
[19:11] <slytherin> geser: back
[19:12] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: and my name + mail in changelog - right?
[19:12] <ScottK-laptop> Yes
[19:13] <marcin_ant> ScottK-laptop: thank you :)
[19:13] <ScottK-laptop> But the advice you got earlier to work with the Debian Maintainer(s) to improve the packages in Debian is good advice.
[19:15] <marcin_ant> ok I will try, but these packages are pretty old - last changes in Feb 2007 - so I will try to mail to maintainer but not sure if he will reply
[19:17] <ScottK-laptop> You might offer to assist in maintaining them or take them over if you're interested in them.
[19:18] <marcin_ant> I also wanted to join to Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team on launchpad - but no response for few days at all (my packages are for zope 2.8)
[19:18] <leonel> ScottK-laptop:    can I close  this 2 :      bug 238547  and   bug 254586
[19:21] <geser> slytherin: if I'm not mistaken you need an ACK from motu-release for fop (every upload needs an ACK since today)
[19:23] <ScottK-laptop> leonel: I'd say yes.
[19:24] <ScottK-laptop> geser and slytherin: Technically not until after the RC is released, but we have to justify them all to ubuntu-release, so if it's not immediately obvious why we need it, please discuss
[19:25] <geser> ScottK-laptop: I guess it would be bug 268930
[19:28] <ScottK-laptop> slytherin: Go for it
[19:28] <ScottK-laptop> or geser ...
[19:38] <geser> slytherin: have you tested that the change fixes that bug?
[19:52] <RainCT> cody-somerville: can you join #ubuntuwire please?
[20:02] <alex-weej__> anyone know why Gens isn't in universe?
[20:03] <alex-weej__> the sega genesis emulator
[20:03] <slytherin> alex-weej__: because nobody packaged it.
[20:04] <iulian> It's bug #107927
[20:05] <geser> slytherin: have you tested that the change fixes that bug?
[20:05] <alex-weej> how are Forum users arsing around packaging and uploading to zshare without realising how to do it right?
[20:05] <alex-weej> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=290008
[20:06] <slytherin> geser: personally no. If you want me to test then you will have to wait one day.
[20:08] <geser> slytherin: at this time of release I'd prefer a test (although the changes look sane), just to be sure
[20:20] <slytherin1> geser: sorry, my laptop just kept freezing. I am back to my PC now.
[20:20] <slytherin1> geser: about fop bug, there is no test data available so I will have to create some and then test it.
[20:48] <savvas0> hi, is there a reason why menu is not included as an ubuntu-desktop dependency?
[20:49] <ScottK> savvas0: I'm guessing yes, but #ubuntu-desktop would be a better place to ask.
[20:50] <savvas0> thanks
[21:40] <tbielawa> hey all. can some one point me at a package that uses CDBS and creates multiple binary targets, please?
[21:40] <tbielawa> @topic
[21:42] <RainCT> tbielawa: open-invaders, for instance
[21:42] <tbielawa> RainCT, thanks a bunch. I appreciate it