| Eeyore-Jr | are there people that program childrens games here? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| Eeyore-Jr | will ltsp build in a virtualbox vm ? | 00:04 |
| Rideh | Eeyore-Jr: i'm trying that myself | 00:05 |
| Rideh | setting up thindesk example in vm | 00:06 |
| Eeyore-Jr | k | 00:06 |
| Eeyore-Jr | i need to do some serious setup and testing before doing it on the real thing | 00:06 |
| Rideh | i don't yet know if its possible, although I dont really see why not | 00:06 |
| ogra | Eeyore-Jr, if you create the vbox with two NICs, one internal and one NAT you can even create a client in a second vm that connects to the internal network of the server vm | 00:07 |
| ogra | that how we do a lot of deveolpment and testing in ltsp | 00:08 |
| Rideh | ogra: i currently have a setup like that, primary nic is bridged, second is on a team segment all the client guests are then on the team segment with it | 00:08 |
| ogra | right | 00:09 |
| Rideh | ogra: i do have a question regarding deployment of edubuntu workstation installs | 00:09 |
| ogra | make sure tonot have a soundcard configured on the server, then you even can test the client sound | 00:09 |
| Rideh | I've created a more typical server to act as nat,dhcp, nfs (home drive), openldap etc. i then have the client workstations configured as I'd like them. This is a mock environment and I'd like to test reloading the workstations via PXE. I do have a pxe / pxe server functioning but right now it just provides netboot leaving the client pxe guest to do a net install which involves a lot of... | 00:10 |
| Rideh | ...interaction etc. | 00:10 |
| Rideh | I would like to make an image of the properly configured edubuntu workstation and then provide the ability to just write an image to a machine that is new / damaged. | 00:11 |
| Rideh | any tips? | 00:11 |
| ogra | well, that will require fiddling | 00:11 |
| ogra | but you could for example creare an image with clonezilla | 00:12 |
| ogra | that should be possible to deploy in such an environemnt | 00:12 |
| Rideh | i assume i'd have to delete the /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules and modify the hostnames | 00:13 |
| ogra | right | 00:13 |
| ogra | but thats scriptable | 00:13 |
| Rideh | is there a way i can provide the hostnames in a differnt manner than using a script on the client machine? | 00:13 |
| ogra | as i said fiddling :) | 00:13 |
| Rideh | yea | 00:13 |
| Rideh | i dont mind, i'm just trying to find the best solution | 00:13 |
| ogra | you could just deploy then via dhcp | 00:14 |
| Rideh | can you explain that? | 00:14 |
| ogra | but that indeed requires a big dhcpd.conf | 00:14 |
| Rideh | ah so i can do it all from within dchpd3? | 00:14 |
| ogra | dhcp3-server allows that you can declare hostnames in the dhcpd.conf | 00:14 |
| Rideh | ok i'll read into that i wasnt aware of that | 00:14 |
| ogra | and dhclient can use that to seed your hostname ... | 00:15 |
| ogra | another option would be to use dnsmasq | 00:15 |
| ogra | that uses a single config for dhcp, dns and tftp afaik | 00:15 |
| ogra | i have no experience with it though, bu know many people in #ltsp that use it | 00:16 |
| ogra | *but | 00:16 |
| Rideh | 1 more question then. for educators ldap is kinda scary. What is the cleanest(simplest) way for them to add / modify entries in openldap? | 00:16 |
| Rideh | myphpldapadmin, webmin both seem kinda flaky. someone recommended apache directory | 00:17 |
| ogra | huh, i'm an ldap hater myself :) | 00:17 |
| Rideh | and i appreciate all of your input | 00:17 |
| Rideh | how do you handle it then? | 00:17 |
| ogra | best to ask in #ubuntu-server | 00:17 |
| ogra | there are some ldap experts | 00:17 |
| ogra | i dont touch it :) | 00:17 |
| Rideh | yea i've been hanging out in #openldap also | 00:17 |
| Rideh | how do you handle users? NIS? or jus tstick to the ltsp? | 00:18 |
| Rideh | *just stick | 00:18 |
| ogra | up to 100 users i'D rather rsync /etc/passwd and group between the machines than using ldap | 00:18 |
| ogra | no, NIS is simply insecure | 00:18 |
| ogra | rsync over ssh and multiple ltsp servers would be what i'd use | 00:19 |
| Rideh | yea i'm looking at a school looking at implementing edubuntu. they have k-12 and as they move up obviously their requirements change moving from a ltps -> individual workstation type environment I was hoping to give them a nice way to migrate their students all the way through | 00:20 |
| ogra | stgraber could likely give you some hints about big setups if he wouldnt be busy with iso tests for the release tomorrow :) | 00:20 |
| Rideh | but i suppose that could work too | 00:20 |
| Rideh | heheh | 00:20 |
| ogra | how many students ? | 00:20 |
| Rideh | enrollment right now is about 60 per grade | 00:21 |
| ogra | and how many grades ? | 00:21 |
| Rideh | 12 | 00:21 |
| Rideh | so 750ish | 00:21 |
| Rideh | although that might increase if enrollment goes up | 00:22 |
| ogra | ok, that rather justifies ldap | 00:22 |
| Rideh | yea the more i muck with ldap the more i loathe it | 00:22 |
| stgraber | is that ltsp ? (sorry just saw ogra's hilight, haven't read the backlog) | 00:22 |
| Rideh | stgraber: its going to be a hybrid i think | 00:22 |
| ogra | stgraber, mixed setup | 00:23 |
| Rideh | it all depends on what the school desides to do | 00:23 |
| Rideh | i want to offer a few differnt solutions and help them pick the best for their environment | 00:23 |
| stgraber | hmm, ok. Then you won't only need LDAP but also some configuration management system | 00:23 |
| Rideh | stgraber: agreed | 00:24 |
| Rideh | what do you have in mind? | 00:24 |
| Rideh | i believe the lab setups are going to be somewhat easy.. 20-40 machines, 4 labs to start with. first 3 labs will be ltsp, last lab will be workstations. | 00:25 |
| Rideh | i'll have another server sitting somewhere to act as fileserver for the homes and ldap server for the whole shebang | 00:25 |
| stgraber | do you plan in-classroom installation, in-school or in-schooldistrict ? | 00:25 |
| stgraber | as in, where do you plan to put the servers ? | 00:25 |
| Rideh | school, 4 labs servers in a centralized locations | 00:26 |
| Rideh | *location | 00:26 |
| Rideh | although for the the ltsp, i might have each of thier server(s) within the computer lab itself | 00:26 |
| Rideh | i'm open to input on how to best approach this | 00:27 |
| Rideh | my boss is wanting us to use this project as an opportunity to get the formula together to then present to other environments. So the more flexible / open ended i can make it now will help out in the future | 00:28 |
| stgraber | does the school district already has an existing IT infrastructure (novell, microsoft, ...) that you'll need to integrate with ? | 00:28 |
| Rideh | Microsoft with AD | 00:28 |
| Rideh | currently each classroom has 1 pc for the teachers use that are windows | 00:28 |
| stgraber | ok, so you don't need a LDAP server, you need to integrate with the AD | 00:28 |
| Rideh | if this lab works out well, we could very well look at replacing their entire infrastructure | 00:28 |
| ogra | poor teachers | 00:28 |
| ogra | and the kids get sexy linux ? | 00:29 |
| ogra | heh | 00:29 |
| stgraber | ogra: most of the schools we manage are Novell-based, believe me, I'd like to see some AD :) | 00:29 |
| Rideh | yea i've worked with novell in a prior school mixed with appletalk | 00:29 |
| Rideh | that sucked | 00:29 |
| ogra | stgraber, but leaving the teachers with windows while the students have the advanced tech is mean | 00:29 |
| ogra | ;) | 00:29 |
| Rideh | well the way this project is starting is they want to see it work. which means first bit is a single lab | 00:30 |
| stgraber | ogra: a school district we half-manage (we do the server side) does the same but they have iTalc on the Windows computers and in the end the teachers spend a good part of their time using Linux, just not theirs :) | 00:30 |
| Rideh | we go in, get one lab setup and working they test it out work the kinks out then deploy further labs. once it goes that far hopefully we can look at reworking the whole infrastructure | 00:30 |
| ogra | hehe | 00:30 |
| stgraber | Rideh: btw, where is that ? | 00:31 |
| Rideh | a private school in indianapolis | 00:31 |
| Rideh | i cant give away more details :P | 00:31 |
| stgraber | oh, do you know inAccess and the one-to-one program then ? :) | 00:31 |
| Rideh | um. i'm not familiar with that myself | 00:31 |
| Rideh | are you in indy too? | 00:32 |
| stgraber | no, but our biggest US customer is in Indiana | 00:32 |
| Rideh | oh nice, yea i see the indiana open-source experiment | 00:33 |
| Rideh | biggest linux rollout in K-12 history | 00:34 |
| Rideh | interesting | 00:34 |
| stgraber | yep, I'm working a bit with MCAS (Michigan City), they are doing Linux one-to-one classrooms (Ubuntu based) with desktop computers and may go with some thin clients soon (can't say much more) | 00:34 |
| Rideh | sure i understand | 00:35 |
| Rideh | where are you based? | 00:35 |
| stgraber | Quebec, Canada | 00:35 |
| stgraber | We are developping ltsp-cluster and doing infrastructure design/implementation mainly for school districts in Canada and in the US | 00:36 |
| Rideh | thats great | 00:37 |
| Rideh | so the ltsp cluster, your doing the model of one ltsp server with supplimental client host servers? or something differnt | 00:39 |
| LaserJock | rockstar: around? | 00:40 |
| stgraber | ltsp-cluster is load-balanced LTSP, so we have multiple application servers | 00:40 |
| stgraber | so when a client boots, it gets its configuration from a central place, then is given an application server | 00:40 |
| stgraber | the configuration on the application server is synced, so we can reinstall a server or add one in less than an hour | 00:41 |
| Rideh | stgraber: sure, ok i used the wrong terminology. | 00:41 |
| stgraber | if a server goes down, it's simply removed from the pool | 00:41 |
| Rideh | what happens if the primary server goes down? | 00:41 |
| stgraber | we don't have a primary server | 00:41 |
| stgraber | the load-balancer, the control center and the boot server can be put on high availability | 00:41 |
| stgraber | so we can run two of all of them and switching to the backup one if something breaks | 00:42 |
| stgraber | only point of failure at the moment is the authentication/data storage that often we don't manage ourself (using AD/Novell and some SAN (Novell or similar)) | 00:43 |
| Rideh | gotcha | 00:43 |
| stgraber | what happens if ldap or the SAN goes down is switching all the clients to autologin mode | 00:43 |
| stgraber | so they don't have their user session but can still surf the internet and use the thin client as normal | 00:43 |
| Rideh | that is definatly not a built in configuration out of the box ;) | 00:44 |
| stgraber | well, we have a demonstration server that has everything setup in one box, of course load balancing and high availability don't quite work in that case :) | 00:45 |
| Rideh | how do you make the boot server high avail? | 00:45 |
| ogra | wait a while, it might become one :) | 00:45 |
| stgraber | but the box can handle 40-50 thin clients | 00:45 |
| stgraber | we have two boxes running: DHCP, TFTP and NBD (well, NFS at the moment but we are moving to NBD) | 00:46 |
| stgraber | we let DHCP handle the sync for the DHCP part (it does that quite well) and for the other services we either simply rsync or using drbd (we try to avoid that :)) | 00:46 |
| Rideh | in that environment can a teacher still control all the pc's in a particular lab and view the desktops and all even if its initially off a differnt boot server (i'm assuming yes because once it goes to a session server its the same as anything else) | 00:47 |
| stgraber | yes | 00:47 |
| ogra | italc doesnt care about the server | 00:47 |
| Rideh | how does italc know what machines are within its control? | 00:48 |
| stgraber | the control center tracks who is connected where, the teacher can then start iTalc, it'll retrieve the list of all computers in the classroom and let the teacher control them | 00:48 |
| ogra | avahi ... IPs | 00:48 |
| Rideh | and it can run from any client as long as the user has proper permissions? | 00:48 |
| stgraber | ogra: nope, we don't use avahi for big deployments. We just interogate our servers :) | 00:48 |
| stgraber | Rideh: yes | 00:48 |
| ogra | ah | 00:48 |
| Rideh | this is really good info thanks btw | 00:48 |
| stgraber | ogra: avahi doesn't work well in all cases as it uses broadcast. works well for small setup though | 00:49 |
| ogra | yeah, i can imagine | 00:49 |
| Rideh | so how do you move control center to its own machine? | 00:49 |
| Rideh | and what services is it actually providing? | 00:49 |
| stgraber | our control center tracks all the thin clients, it knows when they are booting and when a session is opened (and who's connected on it). It also provides an easy way of creating custom lts.conf for thin clients | 00:50 |
| Rideh | is this a proprietary piece of software you've created? | 00:50 |
| stgraber | so you can set part of your network as autologin, another part as RDP on a Windows terminal server and another as standard thin clients | 00:50 |
| stgraber | Rideh: nope, all is opensource | 00:51 |
| Rideh | well i guess i should get cracking on my thinclient setup so i can start learning all of this first hand | 00:51 |
| Rideh | i just my workstation model almost done. its a lot to absorb | 00:52 |
| stgraber | (of course my company sells support for that, providing custom developments, setting up the network, teaching the sysadmins and doing the major upgrades) | 00:53 |
| stgraber | our current development focus is on local applications, we now have skype, firefox, blender and some other multimedia sofwares running as local applications on powerful thin clients | 00:53 |
| stgraber | and we are also developping NX access to the servers | 00:53 |
| stgraber | so a student gets access to the same environment when he's back at home | 00:54 |
| stgraber | (connecting to the same application servers and using the same load balanced setup) | 00:54 |
| Rideh | nice, if you dont mind i'd like to get your contact information | 00:54 |
| LaserJock | ogra: hi | 00:54 |
| Rideh | this project might at some point get out of scope for me and i'll need to bring in big guns | 00:54 |
| ogra | LaserJock, hey | 00:54 |
| LaserJock | ogra: how's it going? | 00:55 |
| ogra | massively tired | 00:55 |
| LaserJock | I bet | 00:55 |
| ogra | but i still have one umpc image test ahead | 00:55 |
| ogra | LaserJock, and you ? | 00:55 |
| LaserJock | ogra: tired, busy, the usual | 00:56 |
| ogra | yeah | 00:56 |
| Rideh | Thanks Ogra & stgraber i'm heading out for the night | 01:03 |
| stgraber | np, see you | 01:03 |
| ogra | ciao | 01:03 |
| Eeyore-Jr | k, last set of questions. does ltsp allow pluggin in usb devices, use of zip drives, floppy drives, etc. | 01:23 |
| stgraber | usb devices yes (mass storage, printer and scanner (soon)), zip I think so but never tried, floppy I haven't tested for a while but it should too | 01:24 |
| Eeyore-Jr | neat, scanner support is a good thing for me. is there a way to "network" a printer from a thin client? | 01:25 |
| Eeyore-Jr | my space is limited | 01:25 |
| Eeyore-Jr | printer attached to a thin client | 01:26 |
| stgraber | yes, we have jetpipe for that | 01:26 |
| * Eeyore-Jr will be glad when week is done | 01:27 | |
| * ogra too | 01:28 | |
| Eeyore-Jr | are linksys switches better or hp ? | 01:28 |
| Eeyore-Jr | i was talking to someone using opengeu. it appears i can sudo aptitude that desktop. i assume this will work for ltsp. e is much light weight for a desktop and may help me use "older" machines | 01:49 |
| Eeyore-Jr | wow, xubuntu alternate just crashed in the vbox vm | 01:50 |
| Eeyore-Jr | won't install | 01:50 |
| Eeyore-Jr | can we run skype? | 01:51 |
| === highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage | ||
| komp15 | hi all | 09:13 |
| komp15 | i'm from indonesia | 09:13 |
| komp15 | use edubutu since 2006th | 09:13 |
| highvoltage | hu RichEd- and ogra | 11:05 |
| highvoltage | hi, even | 11:05 |
| ogra | ho | 11:06 |
| ogra | he ? | 11:06 |
| highvoltage | ha | 11:06 |
| highvoltage | anything that needs to be done for edubuntu regarding release anouncement? | 11:06 |
| highvoltage | there's no panic anywhere, so I just assume everything is under control :) | 11:07 |
| * ogra didnt do anything this cycle with edubuntu | 11:08 | |
| ogra | so i cant say much | 11:08 |
| ogra | but since there is a CD it would likely be good to have some kind of referrer to it ... though the contents of such a message lie in RichEd-'s hands | 11:09 |
| highvoltage | ok, so if someone asks, there's basically an updated version of the edu stuff on the add-on cd? | 11:09 |
| ogra | i know Nubae is actively doing stuff on the download page atm | 11:09 |
| RichEd- | hi highvoltage ... | 11:09 |
| highvoltage | ok cool | 11:09 |
| ogra | right, though i dont know what LaserJock changed wrt CD content | 11:10 |
| ogra | he cared for seeds and metapackages | 11:10 |
| RichEd- | we'll just refer to the general Ubuntu release ... can you just draft a little news link for 8.10 and point to the main release ? | 11:11 |
| RichEd- | ogra: regarding the [1] CD iso and location and [2] how to install (i.e. start with Ubuntu) ... can you send me the rough text info ? | 11:11 |
| ogra | err, its the same as the releases before ? | 11:12 |
| ogra | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyClassromServer | 11:12 |
| ogra | err | 11:12 |
| ogra | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyClassroomServer | 11:12 |
| ogra | for workstation you just leave out the ltsp bits | 11:13 |
| RichEd- | email or /msg | 11:13 |
| RichEd- | i'll format it neatly for www.ubuntu.com and highvoltage can take my text and duplicate it on edubuntu.org | 11:13 |
| highvoltage | or Nubae even | 11:13 |
| ogra | right, just take that text | 11:13 |
| stgraber | hey RichEd- | 11:13 |
| ogra | i have to care for two other announcements for mobile | 11:13 |
| stgraber | only changes from my side is better, more stable and avahi-aware iTalc | 11:14 |
| === RichEd- is now known as RichEd | ||
| === Guest13556 is now known as Basti_dash | ||
| sbalneav | Morning all | 13:25 |
| highvoltage | morning uncle scott | 13:42 |
| Nubae | RichEd: u there? | 14:09 |
| * RichEd waves to Nubae from the Bottom of Africa | 14:25 | |
| Nubae | hi RichEd :-) I've prepared the main download page for 8.10, are the release notes available yet? | 14:28 |
| Nubae | there's also a bit of confusion on the older hardy page, which shows hardy being supported for 18 months (which ogra explained to me is due to the addon-cd component) Further down, though there is still a link for dapper drake (supported till 2009) | 14:31 |
| Nubae | So either dapper isn't really supported (edubuntu that is) anymore, or we have to say hardy is supported until 2011 | 14:32 |
| Nubae | whacha think? | 14:32 |
| ogra | dapper edubuntu *was* LTS | 14:35 |
| ogra | hardy wasnt | 14:35 |
| Nubae | oh | 14:37 |
| Nubae | that causes a bit of weirdness then, because on the new download page, I have dapper as a supported previous LTS, but not 8.04 | 14:39 |
| ogra | well, you could probably drop dapper and just ignore it for its last 6 months | 14:41 |
| Nubae | and not mention 8.04 either? | 14:42 |
| ogra | mention 8.04 indeed | 14:43 |
| Nubae | ok, cool thanks | 14:43 |
| RichEd | Nubae: the release notes will point to Ubuntu release notes ... | 14:51 |
| Nubae | ah ok | 14:57 |
| Nubae | RichEd: how about the release notes on the top of the main page and the get your 8.04.1 here? | 15:04 |
| pips1 | Nubae: thanks again for helping out... sorry I don't have time. :-( I now need to go to collect my son from day care... all the best, cu! | 15:42 |
| pips1 | RichEd: good luck with getting everything out the door! | 15:42 |
| Nubae | pips1: no problem, just one quick question | 15:42 |
| pips1 | Have a nice release day!! :-) | 15:42 |
| pips1 | shoot | 15:42 |
| Nubae | release anouncement on top, is a graphic | 15:42 |
| pips1 | yes | 15:42 |
| Nubae | should I make a new one? | 15:42 |
| pips1 | I created a new one, but unfortunately, it won't show... I'm at a loss of why it doesn't show. :-/ | 15:43 |
| Nubae | so u edited top banner? | 15:43 |
| pips1 | also, I have migrated to a new laptop and I forgot to take my gpg personal key with me.. the consequence is now that I can't logon to the server via ssh to check the filesystem permissions for that image | 15:44 |
| Nubae | banner-right-release.jpg - thats the image? did u just overwrite it or put in a new link? | 15:44 |
| Nubae | ahh | 15:44 |
| Nubae | can u upload with a different name? | 15:44 |
| Nubae | and we can link to that insteaed? | 15:44 |
| pips1 | no, I uploaded a new image to a "dummy" node and tried linking to that one instead but no go | 15:44 |
| Nubae | well, dont worry I'll do my best to get it working | 15:45 |
| RichEd | pips1: thanks | 15:48 |
| RichEd | Nubae: I'm back ... | 15:48 |
| Nubae | RichEd: ok cool... | 15:50 |
| pips1 | good luck guys, got to run.. | 15:54 |
| Nubae | right edubuntu site updated... hope it's ok... | 16:59 |
| RichEd | Nubae: thanks ... I've just fnished the www.ubuntu,com pages | 17:44 |
| Nubae | wasnt too much to do on edubuntu.org :-) | 17:48 |
| RichEd | https://www.ubuntu.com/education | 17:49 |
| RichEd | see what you think | 17:50 |
| * RichEd has to go offline now ... will try to pop back in later | 17:50 | |
| Nubae | bye RichEd | 17:50 |
| Mip5 | Hi folks - I just installed ltsp on a server | 18:12 |
| Mip5 | and booted my first client - it appeared to work, but hang with a blinking cursor in the uppper left hand corner of the screen | 18:13 |
| Nubae | sounds like a graphics problem on the client, what graphics card u using? | 18:14 |
| Mip5 | tail -f /var/log/syslog shows: | 18:15 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:22 unionltsp dhcpd: DHCPDISCOVER from 00:17:31:cb:0b:92 via eth1 | 18:15 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:23 unionltsp dhcpd: DHCPOFFER on 192.168.0.250 to 00:17:31:cb:0b:92 via eth1 | 18:15 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:24 unionltsp dhcpd: Wrote 1 leases to leases file. | 18:15 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:24 unionltsp dhcpd: DHCPREQUEST for 192.168.0.250 (192.168.0.254) from 00:17:31:cb:0b:92 via eth1 | 18:16 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:24 unionltsp dhcpd: DHCPACK on 192.168.0.250 to 00:17:31:cb:0b:92 via eth1 | 18:16 |
| Mip5 | Oct 30 12:04:25 unionltsp in.tftpd[15942]: tftp: client does not accept options | 18:16 |
| Mip5 | It's actually a pretty decent machine - boots the live cd fine, and runs ubuntu hardy (fine) when not testing the pxe boot offered by ltsp - let me check on the graphics card | 18:17 |
| Lns | Mip5: you need to look at the xorg logs on the TC | 18:26 |
| Eeyore-Jr | should i be running in 64bit mode for ltsp server ? | 18:26 |
| Lns | Mip5: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting | 18:27 |
| LaserJock | so it looks like maybe we should get a discussion on edubuntu.org going (epic FAIL on my part as I didn't send out an email) | 18:27 |
| Lns | Eeyore-Jr: you can, there are some issues with running Adobe Flash and a couple other things though | 18:27 |
| Eeyore-Jr | Nubae: i downloaded your script for fat clients, but was unsure how to tell the server which client was fat? i assume by mac address, what file needs to be modified for this? | 18:27 |
| Nubae | take a look at the entry in wiki.nubae.com | 18:28 |
| Eeyore-Jr | Lns, guess i'll stick to 32 bit mode then | 18:28 |
| Nubae | oops, www.nubae.com | 18:28 |
| LaserJock | Nubae and Lns: you going to make the IRC meeting next week? | 18:28 |
| Nubae | LaserJock: I guess so | 18:28 |
| Eeyore-Jr | i'd like to make the meeting, however, i'll be on vacation :) | 18:28 |
| Lns | LaserJock: it's in my sunbird, yes =) | 18:28 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: I noticed you at least got us somewhat updated for 8.10, thanks | 18:29 |
| Nubae | heh, Im working on it still, but yeah the release notes and download pages have been updated | 18:29 |
| LaserJock | the new download page I was shooting for didn't land so we're apparently on our own there | 18:29 |
| Nubae | new download page? | 18:29 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: I was working on getting us an ubuntu.com style download page | 18:30 |
| Nubae | oh yeah that would be nice... | 18:30 |
| LaserJock | for Jaunty I guess | 18:31 |
| LaserJock | or maybe we can get it set up for Intrepid later on | 18:31 |
| Eeyore-Jr | host fatclient1 { | 18:31 |
| Eeyore-Jr | hardware ethernet the:thin:client:mac:add:ress; | 18:31 |
| Eeyore-Jr | fixed-address 192.168.0.2; | 18:31 |
| Eeyore-Jr | } | 18:31 |
| LaserJock | but the current download page really needs to go | 18:31 |
| LaserJock | it's just way too much info to throw at people | 18:31 |
| Eeyore-Jr | so, i'd assume that putting the mac address into the "thin client mac address" will make it a fat client | 18:31 |
| Nubae | Eeyore-Jr: right | 18:32 |
| Eeyore-Jr | thx. now i just need the last piece of the puzzle to make it all work | 18:32 |
| Eeyore-Jr | which is stgraber's conf | 18:32 |
| Nubae | LaserJock: we discuss that at the irc meeting or do u think I should edit that now? | 18:33 |
| LaserJock | well, it might need some discussion | 18:33 |
| Nubae | k | 18:34 |
| rockstar | LaserJock, you were looking for me last night? | 18:35 |
| Mip5 | Forgive me - I'm not sure how to post this continuation to the previous thread about the graphics card on my thin client. It's an ASUS M2NPV-VM mobo - nVidia’s GeForce 6150 | 18:35 |
| LaserJock | rockstar: yeah, just wanted to say hi really | 18:35 |
| rockstar | LaserJock, oh, hi. :) | 18:36 |
| LaserJock | rockstar: noticed you joined edubuntu-bugsquad and via identi.ca noticed you're wanting to get involved with MOTU some | 18:36 |
| rockstar | LaserJock, yeah, my mom thought it would be a good idea to schedule a meeting with my former superintendent about using open source stuff. I got an email about it last night. | 18:37 |
| rockstar | So I guess I'm meeting with him, thought it was as good a time as any to take another swing at MOTU. | 18:37 |
| LaserJock | excellent | 18:37 |
| rockstar | Unfortunately, I've been in London the last two weeks, so I'm constantly tired, and rather busy during the day. | 18:37 |
| rockstar | The good news is that I don't really need to learn to use Launchpad... | 18:38 |
| LaserJock | if you need anything let me know, I've been a MOTU for a while now and know a few tricks of the trade ;-) | 18:38 |
| Mip5 | LNS - I'll follow the link and take a look at the logs and see what I see. Thanks for the help! | 18:39 |
| Lns | Mip5: no prob. =) | 18:41 |
| Eeyore-Jr | Mip5: i'm having the same problem with the same mobo graphics chip | 18:41 |
| Mip5 | LNS - there's still no login prompt. Machine is still hanging. BTW - Should nbd-server be running (I would think so, but it appears not to be). Also, there's no config in /etc/nbd-server/ | 19:19 |
| Nubae | did u get ltsp-server-standalone or ltsp-server? | 19:23 |
| Mip5 | ltsp-server - I think. | 19:24 |
| Mip5 | I booted from the alternate cd, hit F4 and selected ltsp server | 19:24 |
| === ogra changed the topic of #edubuntu to: LTSP Triage Day: Sept. 17th, see http://tinyurl.com/55pfcj || Order: http://shipit.edubuntu.org || Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu || http://www.edubuntu.org | Wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki | MEETING: every Wednesday see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda | 8.10 (intrepid ibex) is released, see http://www.edubuntu.org/Download | ||
| ogra | Nubae, when was the meeting ? | 19:25 |
| Nubae | let me double check | 19:25 |
| ogra | hmm. the ltsp triage day can go as well i guess | 19:25 |
| ogra | pfft, feel free :) | 19:25 |
| LaserJock | ogra: the meeting is the 5th at 18:00 UTC | 19:29 |
| Mip5 | Well - I still can't log into the TC, would the logs in the chrooted environment be useful? | 19:34 |
| Mip5 | Selecting previously deselected package base-files. | 19:35 |
| Mip5 | (Reading database ... 0 files and directories currently installed.) | 19:35 |
| Mip5 | Unpacking base-files (from .../base-files_4.0.1ubuntu5.8.04.2_i386.deb) ... | 19:35 |
| Mip5 | Selecting previously deselected package base-passwd. | 19:35 |
| Mip5 | Unpacking base-passwd (from .../base-passwd_3.5.16_i386.deb) ... | 19:35 |
| Mip5 | dpkg: base-passwd: dependency problems, but configuring anyway as you request: | 19:36 |
| Mip5 | base-passwd depends on libc6 (>= 2.6.1-1); however: | 19:36 |
| ogra | Mip5, what kind of machine is the server = | 19:36 |
| Mip5 | Package libc6 is not installed. | 19:36 |
| ogra | ? | 19:36 |
| Mip5 | It's a dual cpu xeon (3.0 Ghz) w/ 4gb ram. I've run the install using RAID 1 on scsi disks | 19:36 |
| ogra | (you should use update-manager for such stuff, it sets the necessary switches if any are needed) | 19:37 |
| Mip5 | That is how I updated it | 19:37 |
| ogra | libc6 is definately installed, is that an upgraded machine ? | 19:37 |
| ogra | or a fresh install | 19:37 |
| Mip5 | Fresh install as of this morning - 8.04.1 alternate - F4 ltsp option | 19:38 |
| ogra | ah, i thought intrepid (it released today) | 19:38 |
| ogra | was wondering about the old libc6 version :) | 19:38 |
| Mip5 | Sorry - I wanted to go for the long term support - | 19:39 |
| ogra | that looks like you might not have all security updates there yet | 19:39 |
| Mip5 | Strange - I thought I got all the updates after the install - let me look again | 19:39 |
| ogra | but anyway, for your graphics card prob, create /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf | 19:39 |
| ogra | add the following two lines: | 19:40 |
| ogra | [default] | 19:40 |
| ogra | XSERVER=vesa | 19:40 |
| ogra | and see if that gets you to the graphical login | 19:40 |
| === Nubae changed the topic of #edubuntu to: Edubuntu IRC Meeting: Nov. 5th, 18.00 UTC || Order: http://shipit.edubuntu.org || Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu || http://www.edubuntu.org | Wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki | MEETING: every Wednesday see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda | 8.10 (intrepid ibex) is released, see http://www.edubuntu.org/Download | ||
| Mip5 | looking at the messages as they scroll by, the machine stops with eth0 down - though the link light is on and blinking | 19:51 |
| Mip5 | So - the TC client messages stop at eth0 link down - I'm not sure why that's happening during the bootup pocess. | 19:57 |
| Nubae | The first Enterprise release is Edubuntu 6.06, due for launch in June. <--- lol | 19:58 |
| Mip5 | a little while back - I said that I had run the updates - I got the message to do from the desktop after the install. I just looked at my sources.list and saw that only the cd was enabled (the install didn't prompt me for it) | 20:10 |
| Nubae | disable the cd and enable universe, and multiverse | 20:12 |
| Nubae | then apt-get update and upgrade and see if that makes a difference | 20:12 |
| Mip5 | cool - I wasn't sure which sources were the best. I'll do that. | 20:14 |
| Nubae | LaserJock: u still there? | 20:20 |
| Mip5 | are these the only ones I need then: | 20:22 |
| Mip5 | deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ hardy-security main | 20:22 |
| Mip5 | deb http://ubuntu.osuosl.org/ubuntu/ hardy universe multiverse | 20:22 |
| Nubae | you need main, universe and multiverse in both hardy and hardy-security, and hardy-updates and hardy-backports wouldn't be bad either | 20:25 |
| Mip5 | Sorry - I'm really a dope! I was looking at the chrooted sources.list, not the real ones. The real ones were in there. | 20:26 |
| Mip5 | All of those are in there (except backports), and running aptitude and then update shows no new updates. I'll add the backports. | 20:30 |
| ogra | try the Software preferences from the menu instead of hacking around in your sources.list | 20:33 |
| ogra | its just some checkboxes ... no need to care for more | 20:33 |
| Mip5 | Good idea - I'll do that. | 20:34 |
| ogra | it makes sense to copy your sources.list over if its proper on the server sudo cp /etc/apt/sources.list /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/apt/sources.list | 20:34 |
| ogra | then run sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get update | 20:35 |
| Nubae | yeah bad habits die hard... I think I'm still scared of the update manager | 20:37 |
| ogra | right, but if you have an empty sources.list thats the eaiest way to recover the entries ;) | 20:38 |
| Nubae | don't u think there should be an edubuntu.org page with a download of the logo and other artwork? | 20:39 |
| ogra | i think thats on the ubuntu wiki already | 20:39 |
| ogra | "do your own marketing" or some such | 20:39 |
| Nubae | is wiki.edubuntu.org linked to wiki.ubuntu.org somehow? | 20:43 |
| Nubae | ah it is... never mind | 20:43 |
| ogra | its the same wiki | 20:47 |
| Nubae | one last question... since ltsp-server in 8.04 is in the base, its supported for 36 months? | 20:50 |
| ogra | yep | 20:57 |
| ogra | ltsp != edubuntu :) | 20:57 |
| Nubae | ok | 20:57 |
| ogra | thats the main reason it was moved to the ubuntu CD | 20:57 |
| ogra | to show its support state | 20:58 |
| Nubae | but is classroom server edubuntu? :p | 20:58 |
| ogra | the edubuntu apps are, yes | 20:58 |
| ogra | the ubuntu below no | 20:58 |
| Nubae | ok, think I've reflected it correctly now, basically added explanation of which parts are supported for how long | 20:58 |
| Mip5 | Sorry gang - I've (sadly) been pulled away from this task by downed network in another building. I'll have to get to back to this tomorrow | 20:59 |
| ogra | we're here | 20:59 |
| Mip5 | I did cp the sources.list from the good copy to the chrooted environment, and am updating it inside that environment | 21:00 |
| Trailbrain | I'm trying to upgrade to 8.10.... It doesn't find the right files on the update manager.... What do I need to do? | 21:02 |
| Trailbrain | Does the 8.10 update apply to edubuntu? | 21:04 |
| Nubae | Trailbrain: yes | 21:04 |
| Nubae | although most files will be the ubuntu base, with the educational parts being edubuntu | 21:05 |
| Trailbrain | Ok, then how come it's not finding the updates? | 21:05 |
| Trailbrain | Am I broken? | 21:05 |
| Trailbrain | sys-admin-update manager | 21:05 |
| Nubae | you've gotu did a dist-upgrade? | 21:06 |
| Trailbrain | Doesn't update manager work on this sort of thing? I'm downloading the ISO, but would rather not have to burn another disk | 21:06 |
| Nubae | I'm not too familiar with the guis, I upgraded from the command line | 21:06 |
| Trailbrain | That's cool--how? | 21:06 |
| Nubae | sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 21:07 |
| Trailbrain | sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 21:07 |
| Trailbrain | 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. | 21:08 |
| Trailbrain | ummmm...... | 21:08 |
| ogra | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IntrepidUpgrades | 21:08 |
| ogra | have you read that ? | 21:08 |
| ogra | *DONT* use dist-upgrade | 21:08 |
| Nubae | oh :-) | 21:09 |
| Trailbrain | Nope. My google searches don't usually find me the right stuff--so I come here where the smart people are | 21:09 |
| ogra | its untested and very likely to break ... | 21:09 |
| Nubae | heh, worked for me though | 21:09 |
| Nubae | :p | 21:09 |
| ogra | Nubae, right and you keep all the old cruft | 21:09 |
| ogra | really, use update-manager .... its the only path that gets tested | 21:10 |
| Nubae | ogra: I see u did the screenies for classroomserver howto... we need to update those to intrepid screenies... | 21:10 |
| Nubae | want me to do it? | 21:10 |
| ogra | did that change so much ? | 21:10 |
| Trailbrain | Yahoo! It worked | 21:10 |
| Trailbrain | Downloading--thanks! | 21:10 |
| * ogra doesnt use the default theme since a while anymore | 21:11 | |
| Trailbrain | See this is where the smart people are | 21:11 |
| ogra | apart from the wallpaper it shouldnt make much difference | 21:11 |
| ogra | but if you feel like, replace them :) | 21:11 |
| Nubae | true, was just for accuracy sake | 21:11 |
| * HedgeMage peeks in | 21:13 | |
| HedgeMage | I'm amazed at how few people are downloading from the ubuntu torrent right now... the xubuntu one is *busy* | 21:13 |
| Nubae | xubuntu users are smarter | 21:14 |
| Nubae | they know torrents exist | 21:14 |
| Nubae | :p | 21:14 |
| HedgeMage | lol | 21:14 |
| HedgeMage | It took me less than 10 minutes to download the xubuntu ISO... the ubuntu one is going on 45 minutes. | 21:16 |
| HedgeMage | For a long while, I was the only one on the ubuntu torrent... now it's up to all of 7 peers | 21:16 |
| Nubae | ah I'll join in then... 7 is allright :p | 21:17 |
| HedgeMage | heh | 21:17 |
| HedgeMage | just me was kind of pathetic -- I was downloading so slowly because I wasn't uploading, but there was no one to upload to! | 21:17 |
| HedgeMage | Nubae: I do think the torrent option should be more prominent on the download page -- I'm willing to bet that few people notice it. | 21:21 |
| Nubae | yeah agree | 21:22 |
| Mip5 | The updates are trickling in.... | 21:28 |
| Mip5 | I'll rebuild the client after the updates continue. | 21:33 |
| Nubae | 50 connects now for alternate server via torrents | 22:08 |
| HedgeMage | Nubae: nice. | 22:09 |
| Nubae | yeah and now the edubuntu site is totally down... how am I supposed to edit pages like this? | 22:12 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: I'm here now | 22:12 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: I had a lab to teach | 22:12 |
| HedgeMage | Nubae: I'm still seeding ubuntu and xubuntu desktop since I finished, and ubuntu only has about 17, still better than earlier. Xubuntu has more. | 22:13 |
| Nubae | yeah alternate ubuntu has 50 | 22:13 |
| Nubae | so it has to do with smarter ubuntu users knowing torrents exist | 22:14 |
| HedgeMage | heh | 22:14 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: did you make any changes to the download page? | 22:15 |
| Nubae | yeah, changed so that it would be in line with 8.10, but Im working on getting started | 22:16 |
| Nubae | that was set to 6.06 still | 22:16 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: ok, so I think we need to really shorten the download page | 22:17 |
| Nubae | LaserJock: I cant remember what I wanted to ask... oh yeah, at this meeting, I saw there was a mention of sugar being discussed... perhaps sugar on ltsp should also be discussed | 22:17 |
| LaserJock | and just deal with 8.04 and 8.10 | 22:17 |
| LaserJock | yeah, we can talk about that | 22:18 |
| Nubae | Sugar on LTSP and Fat Client LTSP | 22:22 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: we need like a site map for edubuntu.org | 22:23 |
| LaserJock | so we can look at what pages we have, prioritize them, and figure out what needs to get updated, etc. | 22:24 |
| Nubae | yeah, its difficult to see from the main page what exists | 22:25 |
| Nubae | but there are indeed links going everywhere | 22:25 |
| LaserJock | yeah, we need to stop that :-) | 22:26 |
| LaserJock | I think if we had a system to deal with versions | 22:26 |
| Nubae | yep, but the way its being done on upgrade is to make new pages, and then change the old alias url nodes to the new pages | 22:26 |
| Nubae | so we need to clean house I guess | 22:27 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 22:27 |
| LaserJock | we need to also figure out the naming scheme | 22:27 |
| Nubae | heh, u mean the edubuntu vs ubuntu educational thing? | 22:27 |
| LaserJock | it's really bugging me that we have Edubuntu, Ubuntu Education, Educational Addon, Classroom Server, Ubuntu, etc. | 22:27 |
| LaserJock | it's *got* to be confusing to people just wanting to check it out | 22:28 |
| LaserJock | like on news/8.10-release | 22:28 |
| Nubae | it is | 22:29 |
| Nubae | I couldn't figure it out even while I was editting | 22:29 |
| LaserJock | there is "Ubuntu Education Edition 8.10 Released" then "About Ubuntu Education Edition" which basically says it's Edubuntu | 22:29 |
| LaserJock | then "About Edubuntu" | 22:29 |
| Nubae | either its Edubuntu or Ubuntu Education... | 22:29 |
| Nubae | ah there is also ubuntu.com/Education :-) | 22:30 |
| LaserJock | so I have to scroll an entire page just to get at "Get Ubuntu Education Edition" | 22:30 |
| LaserJock | but by that time I dont' know if I want Edubuntu or Ubuntu Education Edition or ... | 22:30 |
| Nubae | yeah totally with you | 22:30 |
| LaserJock | Nubae: not only that, on ubuntu.com/Education "Edubuntu" is not mentioned anywhere | 22:31 |
| LaserJock | but on the sidebar there is both "Edubuntu" and "Education" | 22:31 |
| Nubae | ok, so we get rid of edubuntu completely as a name? | 22:32 |
| LaserJock | I don't know, but we need to just pick one and move on | 22:32 |
| Nubae | the problem then is we have the edubuntu users and edubuntu developers and #edubuntu | 22:32 |
| LaserJock | well, not only that | 22:32 |
| LaserJock | we have edubuntu packages, and "Ubuntu Education Edition" is rather long to put in logo's etc. | 22:33 |
| LaserJock | we could call it UEE I guess | 22:33 |
| Nubae | hmmm indeed... and the logo | 22:33 |
| LaserJock | or ubuntu-ee | 22:34 |
| Nubae | to be honest, I dont really see the problem with edubuntu | 22:34 |
| Nubae | is there a reason for the re-branding? | 22:34 |
| LaserJock | well, sort of | 22:34 |
| LaserJock | I don't want to get into all of it | 22:34 |
| LaserJock | but Canonical wanted to create an Education brand that included not just Edubuntu | 22:35 |
| Nubae | hmmm I thought edubuntu was the education brand | 22:35 |
| LaserJock | the idea was that a school could be using plain Ubuntu on it's teacher desktops, Ubuntu Server on their mail/webserver and Ubuntu Education Edition for LTSP and teaching | 22:36 |
| LaserJock | but bottom line, you're using "Ubuntu", which is good for marketing | 22:36 |
| LaserJock | so my understanding of it was that "Ubuntu Education" was using Ubuntu in Education period | 22:36 |
| LaserJock | and Edubuntu was supposed to be a specific "product" | 22:36 |
| LaserJock | but it's really not clear to me | 22:37 |
| Nubae | ok gotcha, then edubuntu is the classroom server? | 22:37 |
| Nubae | or the addon cd? | 22:37 |
| Nubae | or both? | 22:37 |
| LaserJock | umm, good question | 22:37 |
| LaserJock | I don't know that anybody exactly knows | 22:37 |
| LaserJock | LTSP is on the Ubuntu disk | 22:37 |
| LaserJock | Edubuntu only produces the Addon CD | 22:37 |
| Nubae | well, maybe its just about making a decision | 22:37 |
| Nubae | well classroom server is like addon-cd + ubuntu alternate cd | 22:38 |
| LaserJock | so right now it's the "Ubuntu Education Edition Educational Addon CD produced by Edubuntu" | 22:38 |
| LaserJock | which is as confusing as can be to me | 22:38 |
| Nubae | maybe the addoncd should just be that... | 22:38 |
| Nubae | si then we have ubuntu educational add on cd | 22:39 |
| Nubae | but then edubuntu has to go | 22:39 |
| LaserJock | well, I'm not sure why the addon CD just can't be either "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition" | 22:39 |
| LaserJock | I guess it's a holdover from when we had 2 CDs | 22:40 |
| Nubae | well ubuntu education edition is also classroom server, or not? | 22:40 |
| LaserJock | not sure exactly | 22:40 |
| LaserJock | here's how I think of it: | 22:40 |
| Nubae | I guess classroom server is easy to get rid off | 22:40 |
| Nubae | thats only used on 2 or 3 pages | 22:40 |
| Nubae | no logo | 22:41 |
| LaserJock | Ubuntu Desktop + Addon CD = Edubuntu | 22:41 |
| LaserJock | Ubuntu Alternate + Addon CD = Edubuntu Classroom Server | 22:41 |
| Nubae | except we call it LTSP Classroom server now | 22:41 |
| LaserJock | well | 22:41 |
| Nubae | but what u say makes sense | 22:42 |
| LaserJock | I would separate out LTSP from Classroom Server | 22:42 |
| LaserJock | but either way | 22:42 |
| Nubae | or seperate edubuntu from both and get rid of it | 22:42 |
| LaserJock | perhaps | 22:42 |
| LaserJock | getting rid of Edubuntu completely is complicated | 22:42 |
| LaserJock | *everything* is wrapped around "edubuntu" | 22:43 |
| LaserJock | not that we can't rename, it's just quite a bit of work | 22:43 |
| LaserJock | and it is an existing "brand" | 22:44 |
| Nubae | I see that, but right now the users are probably totally confused and its hurting more than helping | 22:44 |
| LaserJock | here's how I guess I would've handled the "marketing" if we want to keep both | 22:44 |
| LaserJock | Ubuntu Desktop + Edubuntu = Ubuntu Education Edition | 22:44 |
| LaserJock | Ubuntu Alternate + Edubuntu = LTSP Classroom Server | 22:45 |
| LaserJock | so we get rid of the "Educational Addon" bit | 22:45 |
| Nubae | ok, and edubuntu really refers to the add-on cd then | 22:45 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 22:45 |
| Nubae | ok thats good | 22:45 |
| Nubae | but that needs to be well defined | 22:46 |
| LaserJock | so the Edubuntu project really produces 1) contents of "Edubuntu" CD and 2) LTSP for Alternate CD | 22:46 |
| === merriam_ is now known as merriam | ||
| Nubae | so edubuntu project =! edubuntu =! ubuntu educational... | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | the one thing I don't like about it is that "Edubuntu" then becomes not a self-contained OS | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | right, that's the problem, IMO | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | I want 1 project, 1 product, 1 community | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | but I don't know how we do that with the current mix of branding | 22:47 |
| Nubae | its no longer a self contained os though, the split off from the cd was a mistake in my opinion from marketing/community, but made sense on a practical/support part | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | and being and addon CD | 22:47 |
| LaserJock | well, we could kinda be sneaky about it | 22:48 |
| Nubae | also the community seems split into 2 now, with most having migrated to #ltsp | 22:48 |
| LaserJock | on the download page would could link to the Ubuntu CD but call it like Edubuntu Base or something | 22:48 |
| LaserJock | though I doubt that would work out well because of the branding on the CD itself | 22:49 |
| Nubae | well, the addon-cd is not available unless u download it | 22:49 |
| LaserJock | what I was thinking is that you'd have 2 links | 22:50 |
| LaserJock | 1 would be "Edubuntu Base" which would just be the Ubuntu CD | 22:50 |
| LaserJock | and then the other would be the addon CD | 22:50 |
| Nubae | I like that, makes sense | 22:51 |
| LaserJock | or, what my original plan was to call it "Ubuntu" but have a *short* explanation | 22:52 |
| Nubae | I think u'll confuse less people calling it edubuntu with an explanation in brackets | 22:52 |
| Nubae | edubuntu (the ubuntu base) | 22:53 |
| Nubae | not accurate, but makes sense in context | 22:53 |
| LaserJock | "Edubuntu is built off of a base of Ubuntu. This allows us to deliver more educational software, but means you must first have an Ubuntu installation. For your convenience we have links to both CDs below." | 22:53 |
| Nubae | yeah nice | 22:54 |
| LaserJock | to me I think ^^ would work | 22:54 |
| LaserJock | we don't need to assume people are idiots, but we do need to explain in clear and concise language | 22:55 |
| Nubae | yep, looks good | 22:56 |
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