[02:00] <DarkKnight> hey how do i update my swiftweasel
[02:39] <[reed]> fta: yeah
[02:39] <[reed]> fta: but what can be done?
[07:44] <elmargol> Hi. my ff3 gets slower and slower every day. the urlbar and the google searchform... I think my history is too big... is there a fix for this?
[09:33] <asac> hah ... 1k+ karma gain from the last 24h bug triage
[09:56] <directhex> asac, you remember the question of how to pull up the plugin installer for sites which try to use JS-based detection instead of just failing (and causing the plugin installer to appear)?
[09:57] <asac> directhex: yes i remember that. its called a "anti-plugin-detection-kit" ;)
[09:57] <asac> (if it would exist)
[09:58] <asac> directhex: whats the point?
[09:58] <directhex> asac, i was wondering about implementation
[10:01] <directhex> i.e. at what layer to slot in the cleverness
[10:04] <asac> directhex: wait a sec
[10:20] <asac> directhex: so the cleverness can start at multiple places
[10:20] <asac> directhex: the most obvious way is to add code deep in the guts of dom/ code that recognizes when a plugin tabs for certain plugin names in the window.plugins array
[10:20] <asac> taps
[10:21] <directhex> yep
[10:21] <directhex> the cheap way is to detect when people are pointed to adobe.com/flash et al ;)
[10:21] <asac> directhex: thats what i did once ... and it worked at least for youtube
[10:21] <asac> directhex: no thats bad ;)
[10:21] <asac> but well
[10:21] <asac> the problem is i woul dlike  a solution that works for most cases
[10:22] <asac> but if thats the only way we can do it for now we can try ;)
[10:23] <asac> its not really something that can be done 100% perfectly. only thing we should try is to keep this code non-intrusive for the website (e.g. dont change the websites appearence) so that people dont start to look how they can workaround ;)
[10:23] <directhex> yeah :/
[10:23] <directhex> definitely a goal for jaunty though IMHO
[10:24] <asac> ok its done
[10:24] <asac> fta: http://paste.ubuntu.com/66680/
[10:25]  * asac wipes his maildirs with such bugs
[10:26] <asac> long-life bug screening trhrough gmail ;)
[14:35] <asac> ok bugzilla bugmail reorganization done
[14:37] <fta2> i'm sending a new xul 1.9.1 to my ppa with a work-around, far too many people are complaining :P
[14:39] <asac> fta: about waht?
[14:52] <fta2> the gre file i dropped that confused dpkg
[14:53] <Nafallo> hmm. thunderbird in intrepid is too old :-P
[17:49] <asac> ok EOBT
[17:49] <asac> ;)
[17:49] <asac> have to move my profile away ;)
[17:50] <sebner> asac: is shredder shredding your data? ^^
[17:54] <asac> http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/tmp/ffox15a.png
[17:54] <asac> http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/tmp/ffox1.5b.png
[17:55] <asac> sebner: no. shredder works quite good here
[17:55] <asac> using it for MMP now since yesterday ;)
[17:55] <asac> MMP == Massive (bug)Mail Processing ;)
[17:55] <sebner> heh
[17:56] <asac> at least the threading stuff works better now
[17:56] <asac> e.g. show only threads with unread ... is great ;)
[17:56] <sebner> asac: what is so special with your pictures?
[17:56] <asac> and quite quick
[17:56] <asac> nothing
[17:56] <asac> its just 1.5 ;)
[17:56] <sebner> outdated crap :P
[17:57] <asac> thats what my job is about
[17:57] <asac> finding people to test the bits i do for the "real" stable users
[18:00] <ScottK> asac: Would you have a moment to discuss a possible solution on the "Firefox installs Gnome apps" bug?
[18:09] <asac> ScottK: oh it came back now ;) ... i am out now for a few minutes ... will ping you
[18:13] <ScottK> asac: OK.  Thanks.
[18:24] <asac> ScottK: ok
[18:27] <asac> ScottK: i really dont think that dumping -gnome-support to suggests is the right thing to do.
[18:27] <asac> especially in a SRU
[18:27] <asac> for jaunty i can think of a better way
[18:27] <asac> though i would like to keep it in such a way that apt-get install firefox installs everything
[18:30] <ScottK> asac: For an SRU I agree.
[18:32] <ScottK> asac: For Jaunty if it were dropped to suggests and seeded directly as part of Ubuntu Desktop, then it'd be there in the default install, but derivatives could seed it or not as they chose.
[18:33] <asac> ScottK: call now :( bbl
[18:45] <fta> back
[19:21] <ScottK> asac: Back?
[19:32] <asac> ScottK: right now
[19:32] <asac> hung up :)
[19:32] <ScottK> asac: OK.
[19:32] <ScottK> I can see not changing stuff for Intrepid.  It's too late to do anything invasive.
[19:32] <asac> ScottK: point is that apt-get firefox should install our default bundle
[19:32] <ScottK> asac: Why.  It's in the default install.
[19:33] <asac> ScottK: people that uninstall it should get it back by firefox
[19:33] <ScottK> asac: So that leaves no room for derivatives that don't want it.
[19:33] <asac> ScottK: well. you can explicitly deslect it
[19:34] <ScottK> That or patch every package manager package we have for some other special case.
[19:34] <asac> imo thats an important feature for app-install-data
[19:34] <asac> ScottK: no ... there should be a general solution
[19:34] <asac> ScottK: there also could be tinyubuntu
[19:34] <asac> that doesnt want most recommends
[19:34] <ScottK> Globally not having recommends is easy enough for a derivative to do.
[19:34] <asac> so it should be easy for derivates to properly select packages ... with or without recommends
[19:35] <asac> ScottK: thats not what i mean
[19:35] <asac> a black and white solution wont help
[19:35] <asac> derivates should be able to deselect individual recommends
[19:35] <ScottK> OK.  What I'm hearing is that you're sympathetic, but that the packaging system ought to solve the problem, not your package?
[19:36] <ScottK> I don't understand why if someone has explicitly uninstalled ubufox and firefox they need to get ubufox back without asking for it?
[19:37] <ScottK> Am I misunderstanding?
[19:39] <ScottK> asac: ?
[19:41] <asac> ScottK: ubufox isnt ubuntu only
[19:41] <asac> so this shouldnt be discussed here
[19:42] <ScottK> asac: Where then?
[19:42] <asac> here == for this gnome dependency bug
[19:42] <asac> ScottK: no i am not saying the packaging system should fix that
[19:42] <asac> the packaging system does the right thing
[19:42] <ScottK> OK.  Then I misunderstand.
[19:42] <asac> it installs the packages
[19:42] <asac> that should be installed
[19:42] <asac> now if kubuntu wants to offer a high-level UI tool where firefox is avialable
[19:43] <asac> it has to take care that those packages that the high-level tool is not supposed to install shoudlnt be installed
[19:43] <asac> thats my understanding
[19:43] <asac> i will talk to mvo
[19:43] <asac> about the technical implications
[19:44] <ScottK> asac: I think recommends ubufox is a simple packaging bug.  ubufox is not 'required except in unusual situations'
[19:44] <ScottK> You may want it, but it's a policy violation as is.
[19:45] <ScottK> The package should not specify recommendations that don't qualify as recommendations.
[19:48] <asac> ScottK: could be. but there is always room for interpretation ;)
[19:48] <asac> ScottK: imo we should discuss what to do for kde at uds again
[19:48] <asac> ScottK: i mean, last time i tried to discuss that the only feedback i got was: why care about kubuntu ... we want to use konqueror
[19:49] <ScottK> asac: It's not part of the Kubuntu default install, but lots of users add it later.
[19:49] <asac> ScottK: riddell actually suggested that i should just pull in the gnome libs in the main firefox package ("why not?")
[19:49] <ScottK> For Intrepid we were heavily focused on KDE4 migration.
[19:49] <asac> ScottK: thats what i am saying all the time. i outreached for input on how we can do a -kde-support package
[19:49] <ScottK> Well obviously some community members have a different opinion.
[19:49] <asac> ScottK: only feedback i got when i asked on kde api specifics was: "not possible"
[19:50] <asac> later i found out through scott wheeler that things should work
[19:50] <asac> anyway that session was at last UDS
[19:50] <ScottK> Well the first step would be to not have the Gnome package forced on us.
[19:50] <asac> nobody from kubuntu folks seemed to care at all
[19:50] <asac> i found that sad
[19:50] <asac> ScottK: no. first thing is to fix kde support
[19:50] <asac> firefox is broken withpout gnome support
[19:51] <sebner> asac: what about ff-qt? already dead or still progress?
[19:51] <asac> thats in progress
[19:51] <asac> but it wont provide integration
[19:51] <asac> just qt rendering
[19:51] <asac> but its definitly a good chance to revive the idea of get proper kde integration
[19:51] <ScottK> asac: I use it without ubufox and it's not the prettiest thing in the world, but it works fine.
[19:52] <asac> ScottK: ubufox is undebated we can talk about this. but its irrelevant to the gnome depends ;)
[19:52] <ScottK> OK.
[19:52] <asac> ScottK: also i think that adept should be able to handle this
[19:52] <asac> its the packagers intend that it gets installed
[19:53] <asac> its a service that its not a hard depend ;)
[19:53] <ScottK> Adept had to be completely rewritten for KDE4, so it's still a little weak.
[19:53] <asac> but well
[19:53] <asac> ScottK: i am not even sure if that thing can be expressed in app-install-data
[19:53] <asac> ScottK: but i also want to get that feature in there if it isnt
[19:53] <asac> people that go to command line and do apt-get install ... just can use --no-install-recommends imo ... only those that go to the distribution maiun installer should get what the derivate wants to be shipped
[19:54] <asac> anyway, the ubufox thing is something i will sleep about for sure. its just that its not required if the adept thing would be fixed imo.
[19:54] <asac> or update-manager or whatever ;)
[19:55] <ScottK> I'm not going to UDS this time.  I'll ask and see who could talk about this.
[19:57] <ScottK> asac: Just to give you an example of how far this goes, I just reinstalled Firefox in Intrepid and ended up with synaptic installed.
[19:58] <asac> ScottK: but thats gnome recommends right?
[19:58] <asac> ScottK: btw, reinstlal shouldnt install recommends previously deselected
[19:58] <asac> thats a bug in apt for sure
[19:59] <asac> i think there are also some more bugs in apt with recommends still
[20:00] <ScottK> Well I think it's a bug in the packaging that Firefox recommends stuff that's not needed.
[20:06] <ScottK> asac: I'd say discuss it at UDS.  Not sure who will be there.
[20:08] <asac> ScottK: there is a spec firefox kde integratio intrepid
[20:08] <asac> that was the outcome
[20:08] <asac> of last cycles discusion
[20:10] <ScottK> asac: I'm pretty sure without looking that the spec did not include I get synaptic installed in my KDE if I install Firefox.
[20:11] <asac> ScottK: no that probably was the "install recommends by default" spec ;)
[20:13] <ScottK> Roderick Greening (rgreening on IRC) will be at UDS and would be glad to sign up to be the Kubuntu person for the discussion.
[20:13] <ScottK> asac: ^^
[20:14] <asac> cool
[20:15] <ScottK> asac: ubufox pulls in synaptic as a dependency, so that comes with any ubufox install.  I think that pretty clearly makes ubufox a Gnome and maybe Xfce only consideration.
[20:19] <asac> ScottK: it pulls in apturl. thats an apturl bug
[20:20] <asac> apturl needs to support whatever the kde package manager is
[20:20] <ScottK> OK.  Who's in charge of apturl?
[20:22] <asac> ScottK: mvo. remember, its not really like this happened yesterday. if nobody complains, there will be no fixes
[20:22] <asac> ScottK: this was the first time someone really raised any concerns in this direction
[20:22] <asac> ScottK: so now that people care things will be fixed most likekly
[20:22] <ScottK> OK.
[20:39] <asac> rgreening: welcome ;)
[20:39] <rgreening> fta: hey, was speaking with asac on ubuntu-bugs. I can possibly help with ff-qt or at least I'd like ot be involved as asac and I are going to be working in the kubuntu spec for ff integration at UDS
[20:40] <rgreening> ty asac
[20:43] <asac> i am off for a while. fta will surely pop up later ;)
[20:43] <rgreening> k. I have to run for an hour. back later :)
[20:55] <fta> rgreening, ok, sure. i need to work on the merge of the packaging 1st
[21:14] <fta> stevel, how far is the 1st rc ?
[21:15] <stevel_> fta: hopefully tomorrow
[21:16] <fta> stevel_, is there a tag already (in svn) ?
[21:16] <stevel_> yup, Songbird1.0
[21:16] <stevel_> http://publicsvn.songbirdnest.com/client/branches/Songbird1.0
[21:17] <fta> stevel_, hm, it's a branch, not a tag
[21:17] <stevel_> ahh sorry - misread. yeah we don't have a tag.  we're doing it in the branch
[21:17] <stevel_> (sorry in a meeting, so only half paying attention to irc)
[21:18] <fta> ok, tell me if/when the release is tagged, i'll update my package
[21:18] <stevel_> will do
[21:18] <fta> thanks
[23:15] <[reed]> ugh
[23:15] <[reed]> network manager fails again
[23:15] <[reed]> I hate you, NM!
[23:33] <fta> :)
[23:44] <OSUKid7> [reed]: heh, yeah I still need to let your friend know about my NM problems in intrepid, but another one of my friends had similar problems with NM today with a completely different network card
[23:44] <[reed]> yeah
[23:44] <asac> [reed]: eap stuff?
[23:44] <asac> or something else today ;)?
[23:45] <[reed]> asac: no, I just upgraded my other laptop to intrepid, and it wiped out all my VPN configs
[23:45] <[reed]> which is really annoying
[23:45] <OSUKid7> [reed]: yeah that happened to me as well :\
[23:45] <[reed]> considering I have like 7
[23:45]  * fta hates dpkg-source, it's so damn slow
[23:45] <[reed]> asac: fix it!
[23:45] <[reed]> ;)
[23:45] <asac> yeah. i think the problem lies in the fact that vpn plugins are not in main
[23:46]  * fta hates hg too: http://paste.ubuntu.com/66315/
[23:46] <asac> and nobody noticed how important those are for our users
[23:46] <asac> until they broke now ;)
[23:50] <asac> [reed]: so are your vpn networks at /system/networking/vpn_connections ?
[23:50] <fta> huhu.. 1st jaunty breakage
[23:51] <asac> heh
[23:51] <fta> this is jaunty http://paste.ubuntu.com/66315/  but it's fine in intrepid
[23:51] <[reed]> asac: yes
[23:51] <fta> so it's python
[23:52] <asac> [reed]: you filed a bug with your gconf dump right?
[23:52]  * fta hates python
[23:52] <rgreening> hey fta, asac
[23:52] <[reed]> asac: not this time, but I did earlier or something
[23:52] <asac> [reed]: sure. i mean what bug was that ;)
[23:52] <[reed]> um
[23:52] <asac> me goes and searches
[23:53] <asac> that was openvpn i think
[23:53] <[reed]> 277329
[23:53] <[reed]> lp 277329
[23:53] <asac> hmm no bug filed by reedloden
[23:54] <[reed]> that's cause you filed it for you
[23:54] <[reed]> for me
[23:54] <[reed]> :)
[23:55] <asac> ok let me see ;)