[09:02] <pitti> seb128: bonjour
[09:02] <seb128> hello pitti
[09:02] <pitti> seb128: would you mind if I SRU bug 259799?
[09:02] <pitti> seb128: (hiding "ecryptfs" mounts)
[09:02] <seb128> go for it
[09:02] <pitti> still no response from upstream, but it's trivial
[09:02] <pitti> seb128: ok, merci
[09:07] <seb128> lot of green on the sru lists for intrepid that's nice ;-)
[09:08] <pitti> yeah, good to have many developers using intrepid :)
[09:15] <huats> morning everyone !
[09:16] <seb128> lut huats
[09:17] <huats> plop
[09:17] <seb128> pitti: btw can I restart the intrepid retracers or are you still working on ddeb?
[09:19] <seb128> mvo: hey, do you know if the intrepid kvm not booting an hardy iso is a known issue?
[09:21] <pitti> seb128: oh, sorry; please restart them
[09:22] <seb128> pitti: ok doing now
[09:22] <pitti> seb128: ddeb.u.c. is grinding quite fine now; no lockups any more, gpg seems fine, and indexes seem correct
[09:22] <seb128> cool!
[09:22] <pitti> it's still horribly slow, though
[09:22] <pitti> but at least I tracked it down
[09:22] <pitti> it's not actually apt-ftparchive generating Packaes
[09:23] <pitti> but apt-ftparchive taking aaaages to compress it to Packages.gz
[09:23] <seb128> weird
[09:23] <pitti> oh, I should set up jaunty
[09:23]  * pitti does it now
[09:24] <mvo> seb128: let me check
[09:26] <seb128> mvo: I get the language selector, can validate that but the menu next doesn't work so I can't actually boot it
[09:26] <mvo> seb128: I heared about that one, is that a 8.04 or a 8.04.1 CD?
[09:26] <seb128> pitti: what is the duplicate database consolidation about exactly btw?
[09:27] <seb128> mvo: I guess 8.04, I don't think I downloaded 8.04.1 but I can try that one
[09:27] <pitti> seb128: the dup db has a bug status (open/fixed in version V)
[09:27] <pitti> this is used for deciding whether a duplicate is really a dup or a regression
[09:27] <didrocks> morning o/
[09:27] <seb128> pitti: what is it doing exactly to take over an hour on ronne?
[09:27] <pitti> this consolidation thing runs through the actual launchpad bugs, grabs their status, and updates the open/closed status in the dup db
[09:28] <pitti> seb128: quering Launchpad is what makes it so slow
[09:28] <seb128> so it goes through the whole list every time?
[09:28] <pitti> seb128: yes
[09:28] <seb128> hum
[09:28] <seb128> ok
[09:29] <pitti> seb128: if I had direct DB access (readonly), it would be a matter of seconds, I presume
[09:29] <seb128> lut didrocks
[09:29] <didrocks> lut seb128
[09:29] <seb128> pitti: that might be something worth asking, a dump of those informations somewhere
[09:29] <pitti> seb128: not a dump, but direct readonly DB access
[09:30] <seb128> right, that one might be trickier to get, but if they are wanting to do that ;-)
[09:30] <pitti> seb128: bdmurray uses such a thing for some custom queries
[09:30] <pitti> so I think it's not that hard actually
[09:31] <pitti> okay, ddebs.u.c. cronjob for jaunty set up, and running now
[09:31] <pitti> that should have covered all ddebs so far, so nothing should be lost
[09:37] <seb128> mvo, pitti: could somebody reply to the current comment on bug #293441?
[09:38] <pitti> seb128: I can answer the public key thing
[09:38] <pitti> seb128: but he didn't say that it crashed? seems to be a permission problem
[09:38]  * pitti writes a wiki page about debug symbols
[09:39] <seb128> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash has instructions
[09:39] <pitti> ah, adding it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash
[09:39] <seb128> pitti: right the pubkey question
[09:43] <Hobbsee> seb128: pubkey info answered.
[09:43] <seb128> Hobbsee: hey, thanks ;-)
[09:43] <Hobbsee> seb128: you're welcome.  How's it going?  :)
[09:44] <pitti> Hobbsee: ah, I was going to point them to the wiki page update I'm just writing :)
[09:44] <Hobbsee> pitti: that works too
[09:53] <pitti> answered
[09:53] <pitti> Hobbsee: that actually requires apt-key, not just gpg --recv-key
[09:54] <Hobbsee> pitti: oh, that's a point.
[09:55] <seb128> Hobbsee: good thanks, relaxing week after intrepid (if you don't count the bug flood coming from users who just upgraded) ;-)
[09:55] <seb128> Hobbsee: you?
[09:58] <Hobbsee> seb128: yeah, pretty good.  Assignments and such,before the end of uni.  :)
[10:54] <seb128> urg
[10:54] <seb128> pitti: 71 open bugs on gnome-mount, most seem not have been triaged, do you think you could have a look to clean the list a bit this cycle or should I add that to my todolist?
[10:58] <pitti> seb128: that's actually on my TODO list already, but I simply didn't get to it yet :(
[10:58] <seb128> pitti: ok good, I'll try to triage some of those too
[11:01] <seb128> hey pedro_
[11:01] <pedro_> salut seb128!
[11:01] <seb128> pedro_: how are you?
[11:01] <seb128> did you manage to catch up on the weekend desktop bug flood yet? ;-)
[11:02] <pedro_> seb128: I'm good thanks, how about you?
[11:02] <seb128> I'm good too thanks!
[11:02] <pedro_> seb128: eek i'm still reading bug mail, ~3500 to read, not having a good internet connection while you're at conferences really sucks :-/
[11:03] <seb128> pedro_: you should mark all as read, or at least all the bugs where I did post a comment
[11:03] <seb128> pedro_: I opened my mailed on saturday and had like 300 new bug mails so I decided to clean a bit during the weekend to not have some thousand bugs to read on monday
[11:04] <pedro_> seb128: ah ok, I'll do that then. btw have you seen bug 269441?, it's the opposite we are used to see with the trash
[11:05] <seb128> pedro_: I try to use the web interface now to triage components, less stressing than reading inbox ;-)
[11:06] <seb128> pedro_: I think the issue is "update doesn't always work correctly" which can go both way, the code didn't change a lot between hardy and intrepid
[11:08] <pedro_> seb128: yeah i tend to use the web interface also for not going crazy with email
[11:08] <pedro_> seb128: ah ok that makes sense then, thanks you
[11:12] <seb128> pedro_: one efficient way to sort bugs is newer first filtering one bugs which have no upstream task open yet
[11:20] <mvo> I wish there was a "most-recently-changed (but not by me)" filter
[12:01] <Hobbsee> seb128: is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-meta/+bug/240472 a libgnomeui bug, or a kubuntu one?
[12:02] <Hobbsee> (or a heisenbug)
[12:03] <seb128> Hobbsee: that's not a libgnomeui bug, could be some ia32lib issue or local bug or kubuntu dunno
[12:04] <seb128> mvo: right that would be useful
[12:04] <seb128> lunch time bbl
[12:04] <Hobbsee> seb128: OK, thanks.
[12:50] <asac> when is -desktop meeting today?
[12:51] <asac> did we say 1600 UTV?
[12:51] <asac> UTC
[12:57] <crevette> damn my karma decreased, how it is possible!!!
[13:16] <asac> crevette: I took all the bug credits
[13:16] <asac> by doing 24/7 bug triage the last 5 days or so ;)
[13:16] <asac> i think i gaine 5k bug karma ;)
[13:16] <asac> gained
[13:16] <crevette> asac, I'm back to 996 I was 100x 2 days ago
[13:17] <asac> crevette: thats not really a big decrease ;)
[13:17] <crevette> not but I was happy to go over 1000
[13:17] <asac> hehe
[13:17] <asac> crevette: just triage 50 new bugs for firefox ;)
[13:18] <asac> or 200 if you want :)
[13:18] <asac> network-manager surely has enough new bugs too ;)
[14:06] <asac> Hobbsee: libqtengine not in ia32libs?
[16:00] <asac> seb128: isn't there supposed to be  a -desktop meeting today?
[16:00] <pitti> hello
[16:00] <pitti> desktop meeting starting now
[16:00] <pedro_> hello everybody
[16:00] <asac> hah
[16:00] <ArneGoetje> hi
[16:00] <seb128> asac: right, it's right now, and on this chan
[16:00]  * pitti pinged bryce, Riddell, kwwii to join
[16:00] <asac> inspiration ;)
[16:01] <pitti> ArneGoetje: there?
[16:01] <ArneGoetje> pitti: yes
[16:02] <pitti> bryce, Riddell: hello
[16:02] <Riddell> hi
[16:02]  * bryce waves
[16:02] <pitti> new release, new meeting time, new meeting place :)
[16:02] <pitti> everyone recovered reasonably from the release crunch?
[16:02] <pitti> Scott asked me to do the meeting and report today, he doesn't feel well
[16:03] <seb128> pitti: being fighting the bug flood now ;-)
[16:03] <seb128> it's amazing how many bugs we got during the weekend
[16:03] <asac> i took some rest by doing 24/7 bug triaging ;)
[16:03] <pitti> yeah, I felt that, too; spent half of my day reading bugs and the other half processing SRUs :)
[16:04] <asac> but looking back that prevented me from recovering so far ;)
[16:04] <pitti> it's great to see so many bugs fixed, though
[16:04] <pitti> sad that we had them in the first place, but that was to be expected from an edgy-like 4-month release
[16:04]  * pitti orders asac to get some sleep and watch some movies
[16:04] <pitti> I can only recommend playing TIE fighter in dosbox :-P
[16:04] <asac> that, but also most users just dont test our releases until its out
[16:04] <pitti> yeah, classical chicken/egg problem
[16:04]  * bryce nods
[16:05] <asac> apt-cache dosbox
[16:05] <asac> search
[16:05] <pitti> I still need activity reports from Riddell, mpt, and kwwii
[16:05] <pitti> so, obviously there is nothing spec wise to discuss today
[16:05] <pitti> and nobody sent in any meeting topics
[16:06] <pitti> so I'll make this quick
[16:06] <pitti> but I'd like to do some bug review
[16:06] <seb128> pitti: do we know when jaunty is likely to open?
[16:06] <pitti> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/intrepid-updates
[16:06] <pitti> seb128: not yet, waiting for some manual bootstrapping from infinity
[16:06] <pitti> but please don't let that stop you from doing merges
[16:07] <pitti> uploading to jaunty works, it's just held in unapproved until the toolchain is sorted out
[16:07] <pitti> so, above bug list is the one which should be in the distro^Wplatform team's focus for the next time
[16:07] <bryce> ah cool
[16:07] <pitti> I took the freedom to assign bugs to people
[16:07] <pitti> where it was clear that they were working on it and there was a patch, etc.
[16:07] <seb128> lot of fix commited there already ;-)
[16:08] <asac> ok ... i will go over my list and assign them to me
[16:08] <pitti> asac, bryce: that particularly affected you; let me know if that disturbs your bug workflow
[16:08] <pitti> asac: I already did
[16:08] <asac> not all ;)
[16:08] <pitti> mainly because it is good to have assignees on the milestone list
[16:08] <pitti> asac: in a minute
[16:08] <pitti> note that I *only* assigned when there was visible progress
[16:08] <pitti> there are a few which affect our team which don't have assignees
[16:08] <pitti> those are the ones I'd like to skim over right now
[16:08] <asac> yeah ... 284212 was fix committed ;) most likely you missed that progress then
[16:09] <pitti> bug 271138
[16:09] <pitti> bryce: that still looks fishy and unreproducible; do you happen to have a better idea about this?
[16:09] <seb128> there is a bug similar to that which got comments recently
[16:09] <pitti> @all: don't worry, it's just some 6 bugs, not too much
[16:09]  * seb128 search number
[16:09] <asac> pitti: did you assemble the meeting page with our reports? i reported status on all of those i think
[16:10] <seb128> oh that was this one
[16:10] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-11-04 is the version so far
[16:10] <asac> thanks
[16:10] <pitti> asac: ah, great; sorry, I got to know that I do the meeting too late, didn't manage to walk over this
[16:10] <asac> no problem. go ahead ;)
[16:10] <seb128> bug #264256
[16:11] <pitti> bryce: I take the silence as a "NFC"? :-)
[16:11] <seb128> mvo: ^ did you get some upgrade bugs about that?
[16:11] <bryce> 271138: I've not reproduced it myself, but obviously this is an area where there's been some changes, so maybe there's a hw-specific corner case
[16:11] <pitti> seb128: oh, that would make it earlier than hal indeed
[16:11] <seb128> I used to have the "no mouse no keyboard on login screen" issue during some days and it stopped before intrepid
[16:11] <pitti> bryce: but I think the gdm prio has already been checked in that?
[16:11] <bryce> 271138: we've seen lots of unique hw-specific things pop up, so it wouldn't surprise me.  I'll look at it more.
[16:12] <bryce> pitti: ok; I've not read through the entire bug yet
[16:12] <asac> seb128: i remember that i had something like that too ...on my thinkpad
[16:12] <asac> but its long gone
[16:12] <seb128> pitti: well the issue got fixed for me so I'm wondering if there was not several issues and still some users who have a config which didn't get migrated correctly on upgrade
[16:12] <pitti> seb128: most likely
[16:12] <crevette> hello
[16:12] <pitti> anyway, worth checking the gdm prio for all reporters in the bug
[16:13] <pitti> bug 259168
[16:13] <seb128> crevette: lut, middle of a metting right now
[16:13] <pitti> asac: seems you have a patch for this?
[16:13] <pitti> asac: well, report says "working"
[16:13] <asac> PPTP -> yes. a patch for proper authentication
[16:13] <asac> and also the options things is needed here
[16:13] <asac> but i have a patch for that too
[16:13] <pitti> so that doesn't have any triaging problems, it's a SMOP?
[16:13] <asac> options (lcp-...)
[16:13] <pitti> cool, thanks
[16:13] <mvo> seb128: no, let me read
[16:13] <pitti> mind if I assign to you?
[16:14] <asac> that bug? sure
[16:15] <pitti> asac: bug 262191 as well then? properly understood and everything?
[16:15] <asac> pitti: thats not fixable without UI changes
[16:15] <asac> pitti: in report i have status: patch, with concerns
[16:16] <pitti> asac: ok, so it's understood and will be fixed in jaunty, but possibly not be SRUed
[16:16] <pitti> Riddell: any idea about bug 290695?
[16:16] <asac> pitti: possible. i have some other ideas, but not a patch for that
[16:17] <asac> pitti: but surely fixed in jaunty. but i want to wait for proper upstream solution that currently discuss how the applet can deal with that in a user friendly way
[16:17] <pitti> asac: you want to keep it on the milestone list for now as a possible target, or dump it because it's too intrusive?
[16:17] <Riddell> pitti: that would be nice for an SRU, I've not looked into it but I've seen others look into it and I think there's a patch
[16:17] <asac> pitti: keep it. there might be a workaroudn without UI changes ... e.g. remember the group password if it fails
[16:17] <pitti> Riddell: ah; do you think you can find out who is working on that and set the assignee?
[16:17] <Riddell> pitti: can do
[16:17] <pitti> asac: thanks
[16:17] <pitti> Riddell: great, thanks
[16:19] <pitti> ok, bugs updated
[16:20] <pitti> everyone please reload https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/intrepid-updates, sort by assignee and check if you are happy with your assigned bugs
[16:20] <asac> main prob for NM is currently bug #292054 - drivers take too long to associate
[16:20] <asac> this is ridiculous and we also have a similar bug for iwl* drivers specifically
[16:20] <asac> for some users wpasupplicant takes more than 3 minutes to get wpa connection
[16:20] <pitti> asac: you piled up an amazing number of milestoned bugs :)
[16:21] <pitti> minutes! wow
[16:21] <pitti> ArneGoetje: do you know fontconfig?
[16:21] <ArneGoetje> pitti: not in detail
[16:22] <pitti> ok, nevermind then
[16:22] <asac> pitti: luckily most have a patch now ;)
[16:22] <pitti> asac: 292054> anything other team members can help with that?
[16:23] <asac> pitti: unlikely. i need devs that can reproduce that at best
[16:23] <asac> otherwise i will do a bunch of test rounds with users. but thats painful obviously ;)
[16:23] <pitti> well, that would already help :)
[16:23] <pitti> asac: let's discuss that in #u-devel after the meeting, shall we?
[16:23] <asac> anyone here has issues with WPA in intrepid?
[16:24] <asac> we can.
[16:24] <asac> sure
[16:24] <pitti> ok
[16:24] <pitti> so my remaining topic is langpacks
[16:24] <pitti> we have two outstanding action items from last meeting
[16:24] <pitti>  * asac to help ArneGoetje perform a manual upload
[16:24] <asac> done
[16:24] <asac> also most likely found the issue why the version was wrong. but i better dont say it ;)
[16:24] <ArneGoetje> is in the PPA and can be copied over to proposed
[16:25] <pitti> that would be
[16:25] <pitti>  * asac to talk to infinity to find out why Launchpad is breaking firefox langpacks
[16:25] <asac> yeah
[16:25] <asac> probably can be scratched
[16:25] <pitti> asac: so the problem has been identified, properly being laughed at, and squashed?
[16:25] <asac> yeah
[16:25] <pitti> asac: so for our mental sanity we don't want to know then? :-)
[16:25] <asac> at least there is a good reason why the version would be wrong ;)
[16:25] <asac> yeah please
[16:25] <pitti> ok
[16:26] <pitti> <jedi wave>
[16:26] <asac> we will see soon enough (next ffox is coming soon)
[16:26] <pitti> ArneGoetje: for both hardy and intrepid?
[16:26] <ArneGoetje> yep
[16:26] <pitti> cool, thanks a lot
[16:26] <pitti> I'll do the copying
[16:26] <pitti> that's everything from me
[16:26] <pitti> AOB?
[16:27] <seb128> thank for leading the meeting pitti
[16:27] <Riddell> pitti: KDE langpacks are still incomplete in places, I think I've tracked down what the problem is and will try to poke rosetta people about iy
[16:27] <pitti> Riddell: oh heck, I thought that would have been sorted out and is just waiting for the imports to catch up?
[16:28] <pitti> AFAIK the current plan is to wait until that happened, and then ship a langpack update?
[16:28] <pitti> Riddell: so it's not just imports being slow, but some imports done wrongly?
[16:28] <Riddell> no, seems there's yet another rosetta problem
[16:28] <Riddell> it's not preserving the context strings
[16:28] <Riddell> (as far as I can tell)
[16:29] <pitti> argh
[16:29] <pitti> but good that it's tracked down
[16:30] <Riddell> these problems don't usually get fixed fast but it would be nice to time it with a langpack update if possible
[16:30] <ArneGoetje> Riddell: I guess we can  and probably should wait with the update until this has been fixed...
[16:31] <pitti> well, we can do a normal update now, with the PPA apcakges, and another one when this is fixed
[16:31] <pitti> unless the PPA packages actually make things worse (but I don't think that's the case?)
[16:31] <ArneGoetje> pitti: yes... I meant updated base packages
[16:31] <Riddell> no reason why they should
[16:31] <pitti> ArneGoetje: yes, absolutely
[16:31] <pitti> Riddell: of course we can do an update upload once this is fixed
[16:32] <pitti> ok, seems we are done, thanks everyone!
[16:32] <Riddell> pitti: yeah, I'll keep you and ArneGoetje updated when I hear back from rosetta people
[16:32] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[16:33] <asac> thanks
[16:33] <pitti> asac: so this timeout bug particuarly manifests with WPA/WPA2, i. e. with wpasupplicant?
[16:34] <asac> pitti: its noisy (as always) ... its definitly WPA
[16:34] <pitti> asac: so you need someone which has that  problem, and can also get some logs and debugging session with you?
[16:34] <pitti> darn, no WPA in range here
[16:34] <bryce> thanks pitti
[16:35] <asac> pitti: there is a wide variety of symptoms here. this bug initially manifested for WPA Enterprise ... where it appears to happen for all iwl chipsets at least
[16:35] <asac> pitti: but now that release is out this also seems to be a problem for normal WPA-PSK and even for none-iwl chipsets
[16:35] <asac> pitti: some users cannot connect at all, for some wpasupplicant manually works well
[16:36] <asac> for some NM works if it gives wpasupplicant enough time
[16:36] <asac> pitti: i think there is one thing i can try to cherry pick upstream ... with some luck it helps those that can connect manually with wpasupplicant
[16:36] <pitti> asac: maybe you should try asking on u-devel@, many devs read it, and it's likely to get more attention than IRC
[16:37] <asac> for the rest this is completely opaque
[16:37] <asac> pitti: yes. i will get feedback on the cherry pick first. if that yields nothing will spread that further around.
[16:37] <pitti> asac: sounds like a plan
[16:38] <asac> ok will update the bug with the cherry-pick i think is worth to test
[16:38] <asac> pitti: ^^
[16:38] <pitti> cool, thanks
[16:38] <pitti> sorry that I can't help with that
[16:38] <pitti> it Just Works(tm) for me...
[16:38] <asac> no problem ;)
[16:39] <asac> what we need is all hardware here or a perfect test center ;)
[16:39] <pitti> but I only have eth and an open wifi, and that UMTS thing :)
[16:39] <asac> same here ;)
[16:39] <pitti> asac: it's called "Tim Gardner"
[16:39] <asac> well.
[16:39] <pitti> he has a shitload of wifis for testing
[16:39] <asac> no comment
[16:39] <asac> yeah. those should be here i think ;)
[16:39] <asac> he doesnt triage NM issues :)
[16:39] <pitti> but he can certainly help you with getting log files and all that
[16:40] <asac> i think i would need a whip for that ;)
[16:40] <asac> but i will try again
[16:40] <asac> hmm  he is not online
[16:41] <asac> ah just not in -devel
[16:52] <tedg> asac: You've always wanted to visit Idaho, right? ;)
[16:53] <asac> tedg: wasnt that montana?
[16:53] <asac> ;)
[16:54] <tedg> asac: Heh, does that change your preference?
[16:55] <pitti> hey tedg
[16:56] <pitti> voted yet? :-)
[16:56] <pitti> tedg: I saw some photos of loooong lines in front of the voting places, crazy :)
[16:56] <tedg> pitti: Yeah, I voted on Thursday.  Though unverifiable electronic voting.  Really they voted for me when they compiled the software.
[16:57] <pitti> tedg: that might explain why some 50% chose postal vote...
[16:57] <pitti> (rightfully so!)
[16:57] <pitti> all this electronic computer crap, really
[16:57] <pitti> *cough*
[16:58] <tedg> I wasn't offered that option, I believe you can only do it here if you can verify that you're unable to go to a polling place (overseas address, etc.)
[16:58] <pitti> ah, that's handled differently in different states, isn't it?
[17:01] <tedg> Yeah, almost all aspects of voting are actually.  What happens is that basically the only thing that the federal gov't worries about is the electoral college.  Then it's up to the states to elect those electoral college members.
[17:02] <tedg> There are some federal regulations for fairness and other things, but they're fairly minor compared to the total complexity of voting.
[17:03] <dobey> most states require the electoral college to vote for whoever won the popular vote in the state, though not all do
[17:04] <dobey> they're supposed to vote that way, but it's not really a requirement that they do, in all states
[17:05] <pitti> dobey: I read about that, too
[17:05] <pitti> however, they hand in their votes in sealed envelopes, so how can they actually be sure about that?
[17:06] <dobey> pitti: track by fingerprint?
[17:06] <pitti> heh
[17:07] <dobey> pitti: i'm sure it's known
[17:07] <dobey> or at least, it will become known and there will be a big ruckus about voting fraud, etc...
[17:08] <dobey> maybe it will be nevada this year instead of ohio or florida, who knows
[17:52] <bsnider> pitti, i think your last cups update might have broken printing support in intrepid for a lot of people
[18:09] <pitti> bsnider: --verbose?
[18:10] <bsnider> pitti, your last update to cups was partly a change in "debian/filters/pstopdf"
[18:10] <pitti> bsnider: ah, that was an update from Till
[18:10] <bsnider> that filter is now causing a whole lot of problems
[18:11] <pitti> bsnider: can you please ping tkamppeter in #ubuntu-devel and discuss this?
[18:11] <bsnider> sure
[18:11] <pitti> bsnider: sorry, I wasn't really involved in those filters; Till knows them very well
[18:11] <pitti> bsnider: thanks
[18:11] <bsnider> well, i only came to you because your name was on the cups update
[18:11] <bsnider> but i also know he's involved
[18:11] <bsnider> he or she
[18:20] <pitti> he