/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/11/05/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== tuxlinux_ is now known as tuxlinux
=== lamont` is now known as lamont
=== Rafik_ is now known as Rafik
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
=== smurfix is now known as smurf
=== cody-somerville_ is now known as cody-somerville
james_whi all16:01
liwhi16:01
TheMusoHey folks.16:01
cjwatsongood afternoon16:01
robbiewhi16:01
cjwatsoneveryone but evand and doko here16:01
cjwatson#startmeeting16:02
MootBotMeeting started at 10:02. The chair is cjwatson.16:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:02
mvohi16:02
cjwatson[TOPIC] Introductions16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Introductions16:02
cjwatsonso, post-8.10, first order of business is to introduce new members of the team16:02
robbiewI suppose that would be me16:02
cjwatsonrobbiew joins as the new foundations team manager, and mvo joins us from the desktop team16:02
* mvo waves16:02
* robbiew waves also16:03
cjwatsonplease make them welcome and help them find their feet as necessary16:03
james_wwelcome mvo16:03
james_wwelcome robbiew16:03
liwwelcome, mvo and robbiew16:03
evandhi16:03
cjwatsonI should probably hand over to Robbie at this point :-) Really the only other thing I had for this meeting was the 9.04 roadmap16:03
robbiewI don't have much, as this is my first meeting...16:04
cjwatson[LINK] https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.0416:04
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.0416:04
cjwatsonwe are currently in the process of discussing requirements for a number of the bullet points there, and will be pulling several of you into calls16:05
cjwatsonbut, as usual, a lot of things will come from ourselves16:05
james_wthat's quite a long list :-)16:06
mvoI suspect its getting even longer when we collect our ideas as well :)16:07
james_wif we have ideas for items, or UDS topics, where do we go with them?16:07
cjwatsonrobbiew: what do you want to do by way of collecting internal ideas? mail, wiki, ...?16:07
robbiewwiki is probably best16:08
liwwhich one?16:08
robbiewwhat would be the best location?16:08
robbiewunder Foundations team on ubuntu wiki?16:08
robbiewor internally?16:08
cjwatsoneither's fine, probably best on the Ubuntu wiki16:09
robbiewright, no reason to keep internal16:10
robbiewhow was this done for Intrepid?16:10
cjwatsonISTR I gathered items by e-mail and worked them into the agenda myself16:10
cjwatsonit wasn't optimal16:10
cjwatsonsomething on the wiki would be better, though it'll still need to be gardened into something resembling a coherent list of topics for UDS16:11
robbiewright...is there a preferred location under /FoundationsTeam16:12
cjwatsonnope, create one :-)16:12
robbiewok...will send out the link after the meeting16:12
cjwatsonthe major things that I think are likely to affect everyone are a push for machine-readable copyright files (probably per the Debian proposal, although exact details still to be fleshed out) and a general bug-fixing initiative16:13
liwcjwatson, copyright files > which packages would this affect? all?16:13
cjwatsonthe former doesn't very exciting, but a number of customers report that it's a pretty big deal for their legal departments to have to read /usr/share/doc/*/copyright ...16:14
mvobug fixiing++16:14
cjwatsonliw: at a minimum, everything in main16:14
cjwatson(you may say "yow" now)16:14
liwcjwatson, that's still a large number... sounds like doing it in collaboration with Debian would be good, for keeping the delta small16:14
robbiewwith this and bug fixing, it's hard to see everything on the Roadmap getting done in time16:14
cjwatsonyeah, that's why we're looking at the Debian proposal, which has already got some adoption16:15
liw. o O (Ubuntu could NMU all Debian packages in one go)16:15
cjwatsonwe're due a call to figure out the scope of a big bug-fixing push; essentially, this is coming out of an awareness that there are a lot of reasonably complex problems in the bug tracking system that have never quite made it up to the level of feature work and so we've never had time to fix them16:16
liwcjwatson, as I understand it, the Debian proposal is not utterly finalized yet (just practically so), so if we have additional needs, it'd be possible to get the proposal fixed, I assume16:16
cjwatsonhowever, doing it right means figuring out a sensible list of targets, and figuring out how to measure how well we're doing16:16
cjwatsonplease drop me a mail if you have any personal targets you'd like to hit but have never had the time16:17
cjwatsonit's not worth doing a half-hearted job of, IMO ...16:17
robbiewcjwatson: is this bug fixing effort only for our team? should/would Desktop and Kernel be included?16:17
cjwatsonrobbiew: Ubuntu-wide16:17
cjwatsonwe brought it up a few months ago and got tentative general approval16:18
robbiewOk, so I'm thinking I should setup a call with the various team managers and tech leads16:19
cjwatsonthat's Thursday's call :)16:19
robbiew;)16:19
robbiewright..thanks16:19
cjwatsonliw: proposal> right16:19
robbiewcjwatson: should probably look at the "Dennis" project bugs for this effort as well16:21
cjwatsonperhaps, though I'm not sure how many of those affect this team16:21
robbiewright16:21
cjwatsonanyway, I'm done16:22
cjwatson[TOPIC] AOB16:22
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB16:22
robbiewAOB?16:22
TheMusoAny other business.16:23
liw(Any Other Business)16:23
robbiewah..thanks16:23
* robbiew comes from IBM, so knows too many acronyms...just not that one ;)16:23
mvonot sure if that should be part of this meeting, what do you think bug #292179 is worth a string break (evms removal)?16:23
ubottuLaunchpad bug 292179 in update-manager "Intrepid upgrade removed EVMS but should not have allowed upgrade" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29217916:23
mvo(string break via SRU)16:23
mvo(or rather a string addition for the case when evms is in use)16:24
cjwatsonlooking16:24
mvobasiclly its about if /proc/mounts contain evms should we abort the upgrade (I think yes) with a error or do it and keep evms installed (but unmaintained becuase its not longer in intrepid)16:25
slangasekwhat, no autoconverting evms volumes on the fly to lvm2?16:26
* mvo notices that he uses a lot of () today16:26
cjwatsonI'm inclined to say that the severity of the bug is such that it trumps the risk of an untranslated message16:26
mvoslangasek: ha! that is a plan16:26
mvocjwatson: yeah, my feeling too16:26
slangasekI agree16:26
mvo especially since the string will only shown to a very small subset of users (that are affected by the problem)16:26
=== apachelogger is now known as Oxyhydrogen
mvothanks, I will do that then16:27
* robbiew didn't know people still used evms16:27
james_whow is Intrepid looking? Is the upsurge in bug reports higher than for other releases? Are the more SRUs?16:28
liwshould the division of duties between cjwatson and robbiew be explained?16:28
cjwatsonhttps://wiki.canonical.com/TechnicalLead16:29
cjwatsonexactly how this shakes out in practice we'll have to see; I suspect that task allocation in particular will be a bit of a joint effort16:30
cjwatsonbut I'll do what Robbie tells me to do here :)16:30
robbiewheh...too bad there's no /Manager page16:30
liwcjwatson, I meant, in public, for the community, or do they not need to care?16:30
evandWho do our activity reports go to?16:31
robbiewme16:31
evandok, noted16:31
cjwatsonliw: I hope it isn't important16:31
TheMusoI don't think its important.16:31
mvojames_w: intrepid is looking ok AFAICT from the stuff I looked at16:32
robbiewcjwatson: do you want to be cc'd on activity reports?16:32
james_wmvo: cool, I know you see a lot of the incoming reports from upgrades, so that's good news.16:32
cjwatsonrobbiew: I don't mind; I can be if you think it's useful16:32
robbiewcjwatson: right...as lead, I'm thinking you should be kept in the loop16:33
mvojames_w: there are still problem and some tricky looking issues, but overall it really looks ok16:33
cjwatsonok16:33
cjwatsonbug 293586 is sort of embarrassing16:33
ubottuLaunchpad bug 293586 in busybox "lack of CONFIG_GETOPT_LONG in busybox-udeb completely breaks Kickstart" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29358616:33
cjwatsonthat's a QA failure on our part :-/16:34
robbiewall: so send the activity report to me, but cc cjwatson16:34
TheMusorobbiew: Will do as of my next report.16:34
evandPerhaps we should add kickstart and regular preseeding to the CD testing?  Though that would make the already time consuming tests even longer.16:35
cjwatsonit seems like one of those things that should be tested occasionally, if not necessarily every time16:36
* slangasek nods16:36
mvocould we make that automatic?16:36
mvoI mean, kickstart sounds like its a good target for a autotest?16:36
liwevand, otoh, shouldn't those kinds of tests be almost completely automatable: you start them, and then don't need to bother with them until they are finished (unlike the usual kinds of tests, that require constant attention)16:36
cjwatsonmvo: yes, I'd hope so16:37
cjwatsonI'll mail heno and ask16:37
evandI had toyed around with the idea of doing automated install testing with KVM, but alas I do not have a server that supports it16:37
mvoI have good success with my auto-upgrade test setup with kvm, its not perfect, but found some issues for me that would have otherwise be found by users16:38
evandmvo: just out of curiosity, is the code to support that public?16:39
mvoevand: yes, part of the update-manager bzr tree16:39
cjwatsonmvo: is there any way to get keystrokes into it? We'd need something along those lines to boot the installer with the right kernel parameters16:39
evandneat, thanks16:39
cjwatsonor I suppose we could just use the kernel and initrd rather than booting a CD16:39
mvoevand: for this cycle I want to make a proper package out of it so that it actually get some outside attention16:39
evandcjwatson: kernel and initrd> that's what I was successfully doing on my desktop16:39
mvocjwatson: keystrokes> I *think* so, there is a monitor interface that is quite capable that can be driven via stdio16:40
mvocjwatson: yep, the monitor supports the "sentkey" command16:41
mvothe only big problem I found is the lack of reliable savevm/loadvm in kvm16:41
mvootherwise it would be really perfect16:41
cjwatsonok, that's cool16:41
mvo(for my needs)16:41
mvohm, you can even do mouse_move mouse_button events with it16:42
cjwatsonanyway, it sounds like we're done and can continue this elsewhere, unless robbiew has any objections16:42
mvoyes, sorry for getting carried away16:43
robbiewnope16:43
cjwatson#endmeeting16:43
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:43.16:43
liwthanks16:43
james_wcjwatson: any thought about the Debian RC bugs idea?16:43
TheMusoThanks.16:43
evandthanks16:43
cjwatsonrobbiew: mootbot produces logs like those at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ (I think there's an upload delay though)16:43
* TheMuso goes back to bed.16:43
cjwatsonjames_w: oh, I'd forgotten about that16:44
slangasekthanks, all16:44
mvothanks16:44
robbiewcjwatson: ok, thx16:44
liwjames_w, Debian RC bugs?16:44
cjwatsonJames had proposed that since Debian won't really be exciting until lenny releases, we put a bit of effort into helping both it and ourselves by resolving RC bugs16:44
cjwatsonhttp://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php?bydist=both&sortby=packages&ignmerged=on&new=7&refresh=180016:44
cjwatsonI don't think I got round to talking with anyone else about it at the release sprint, unfortunately16:45
robbiewcjwatson: with such a large list for Jaunty...bug fixes...and UDS topics still not settled...will there be time?16:46
cjwatsonI'll mail it out to team leads for discussion tomorrow, how about that?16:46
cjwatsonrobbiew: most of these represent bugs in Ubuntu too, but point taken16:46
james_wcjwatson: thanks16:46
james_wI want to propose a "Debian RC bugs day" to the motu team where we get stuck in for a day, but it's a couple of weeks until I have the time to participate myself16:47
arahello everybody16:57
henohey all!16:58
pedro_hello folks16:58
* ogasawara waves16:58
bdmurrayhi16:59
sbeattie hey16:59
heno#startmeeting17:00
MootBotMeeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.17:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:00
henoCongratulations everyone on a successful release!17:00
stgraberhey there17:00
henoThe testing was quite hectic at the end but it seems we got there :)17:01
stgraberyeah, fun last iso testing night :)17:01
henoAgenda as usual here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings17:02
* stgraber grabs some food (lunch time here)17:02
heno[TOPIC] Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?17:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?17:02
bdmurrayThere was some discussion about this in #ubuntu-bugs the other day and it was suggested that we use regression-proposed to identify these.17:03
sbeattieI think it would be reasonable to track these with a tag.17:04
stgraber+117:04
pedro_yes, could those be added to the sru tracker page somewhere?17:04
henoUsually a regression found in an SRU candidate should block it's move to updates17:04
pedro_btw does anyone still have issues with sbeattie sru page?17:04
bdmurraysbeattie: Comments about epic failures should happen in the SRU bug though, correct?17:05
henoat which point it's not a regression17:05
pedro_it's way slow here :-(17:05
sbeattieBut it needs to be made explicit that regression should also be mentioned in the original SRU bug as well.17:05
sbeattiepedro_: it's sometimes slow to render and I'm not sure why.17:05
sbeattiebdmurray: correct17:05
henowhat would be a typical use case for this?17:05
schwukHi17:06
henoa proposed update that we object to on the grounds of a discovered regression? is that what we are tagging?17:06
sbeattieheno: yes17:07
bdmurrayThe situation that came up is that someone submitted a bug about a -proposed package for unknown reasons...17:07
henoIs the purpose to track historically how many SRUs were put forward with regressions in them or to have a list of currently blocked SRUs?17:07
bdmurraySo tagging these bugs would allow the SRU verification team to find these regression-proposed bugs that the bugsquad has identified.17:08
henobdmurray: oic, this would be a tab for new bugs filed against -proposed packages, not the SRU bug itself17:09
henothat makes sense17:09
bdmurrayIdeally, this shouldn't happen as the person running the -proposed should know which bug to comment on but you never know.17:10
ogasawaraon a similar note, the kernel team has now decided to open 1 SRU bug report for each 2.6.27.y upstream stable kernel patch set.  any regressions will warrant a new bug being opened for that regression.17:10
ogasawarahttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-November/003406.html17:11
sbeattieogasawara: that sounds reasonable17:11
henook, looks like we are agreed. Let's add regression-proposed to the regression tracking description page17:12
henohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking17:12
bdmurrayand update the EnableProposed page with the tag and commenting on the SRU bug17:12
henosbeattie: will you do that?17:13
sbeattieyes, can you #action it?17:13
heno[ACTION] sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info17:14
MootBotACTION received:  sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info17:14
heno[TOPIC] Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)17:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)17:15
henoWe are processing Intrepid SRUs now, but there are still some Hardy SRUs outstanding17:15
sbeattieWe got behind there due to focusing on intrepid, but I expect to start making progress on them again.17:15
araI have a machine with a partition with Hardy, I could give some help clearing that up17:15
sbeattieara: that would be great!17:15
henoara: that would be great!17:16
arasbeattie, heno: are you the same person?17:16
pedro_dude you're so connected :-P17:16
sbeattieI'm giving an open week session tomorrow on SRU verifications, I'll also solicit for assistance there.17:16
henoanyone else who can lend a hand, that would be appreciated too!17:16
sbeattieara: I think you just insulted heno. :-)17:16
pedro_if someone could take bug 204133, that'd be really neat, that's the oldest bug there, 118 days old17:17
henosbeattie: no, no. no worries :)17:17
ubottuLaunchpad bug 204133 in wubi/8.04 "wubi install unusable - Buffer I/O error on device loop0" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20413317:17
henoit does look like a pure copy and paste though :)17:18
henolet's ask davmor to look at that when he returns17:19
henoour resident wubi test expert17:19
bdmurrayI don't see a test case right away17:20
bdmurrayIt might make more sense to follow up with agostino and see what the status is / what needs to happen.17:21
bdmurrayI'll do that since I reported the original bug. ;-)17:22
henoI suspect it needs to be release before the 8.04.2 respin17:22
henobdmurray: ok, thanks17:22
henoopenldap is old too17:23
sbeattieheno: good point, I'll milestone it.17:23
henoand python-apt17:23
henosbeattie, ara: We've talked about runing an SRU testing day. Should we schedule that?17:25
heno(do others agree it's good idea?)17:26
araheno: historically testing days are Mondays17:26
bdmurraysbeattie: you are giving a class at openweek right?17:27
ara(with a history of 3)17:27
ara:)17:27
sbeattiebdmurray: yes, tomorrow17:27
bdmurrayperhaps capitalizing on that with a SRU day afterwards would be good17:27
henothis might be a good time, as we don't have ISOs to test17:27
henobdmurray: good point17:27
henoara: could you coordinate with sbeattie on a basic plan for the day and announce it?17:29
sbeattieara: how much prep work did you do for the testing days?17:29
pedro_make sure to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning aswell ;-)17:29
arasbeattie: some doc preparation and wiki update17:29
arasbeattie: blogging and some spam on the lists17:30
araheno: yes, sure17:30
heno[ACTION] ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday17:30
MootBotACTION received:  ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday17:30
henocool!17:30
araheno: next Monday I am on holidays, though :(17:31
araheno: but I can help with the prep work17:31
araheno: and the post work17:32
henoara: ok thanks. We can run it in your absence :)17:32
henosbeattie and I work as one ;)17:32
heno[TOPIC] Application test cases17:33
MootBotNew Topic:  Application test cases17:33
henoThere were some posts on planet about this yesterday and we've seen some new test case contributions17:33
henohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Applications17:33
henoIt's good to see new contributions here though we need to merge it with the content here https://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/Applications17:34
cr3mpt mentionned that having a second website for test cases might cause duplication or desynchronization between the two17:35
henoThe migration to the test case wiki was left hanging a bit during release, but we should pick it up again17:35
schwukHow are we going to handle redirection once we move to the new wiki?17:36
henocr3: we are seeing some of that confusion now, but I think we should migrate all the cases over to the testcases wiki17:36
henoschwuk: redirect of just old test case URLs or WRT to the iso tracker?17:37
schwukheno: the old URLS17:37
LaserJockheno: is there a particular reason to have a separate wiki for test cases?17:37
araschwuk: I would change the pages to "there is a new test case wiki, please visit http:..."17:38
araschwuk: redirecting will refrain people to know that there is a new one17:38
maco_sorry guys, i didnt know that wiki existed :(17:38
araschwuk: and they could keep adding new test cases to the old one17:38
henoschwuk: adding a note about the new wiki on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases should do - I don't think we need to redirect all the pages17:39
henopages in wikis move around and are deleted all the time; people are used to that17:39
cr3I'm not used to that, but that's just me :)17:40
henoLaserJock: it is so we can give it more structure, add custom macros, lock down pages that we then parse to generate scripts automatically, etc17:40
henothere are good reasons, we're just not there yet17:41
LaserJockjust wondered, as Ubuntu has a bit of a wiki-mania problem ;-)17:41
cr3here here!17:41
henoara: will you pick up the page migration effort again? please coordinate with davmor and the new contributors17:42
araheno: yes. I have already talked with davmor about it. We are working on it17:42
henoara: excellent, thanks17:42
heno(no action item required then)17:43
heno[TOPIC] Meting times (post DST change)17:43
MootBotNew Topic:  Meting times (post DST change)17:43
stgraberyeah, basically I'd like to avoid QA meeting on my lunch time :)17:43
ara"no, no please" would sound too pathetic?17:44
stgraberan hour before or an hour after would be great, or any other time (we can discuss it)17:44
=== maco_ is now known as maco
bdmurray"no, no please" not before17:45
ara:)17:45
henoan hour before is 8.00am in Portland17:45
sbeattiebdmurray: c'mon 8am meetings are fun.17:45
henoara: your 'no, no' was about an hour after?17:45
araheno: yes. i was soooooo happy about DST!17:46
henoI would also prefer not to shift it later because we have another meeting after this too17:46
stgraberara: yeah, so was I ... but I need a workaround for the next 6 months :)17:46
pedro_i would prefer no not shift ;-)17:46
henostgraber: can you change your lunch time once a week?17:47
pedro_stgraber: lunch time was an issue for me previously to the DST :-P17:47
stgraberheno: not really, we usually go out for lunch and I can't hardly ask everyone in the company to change the lunch time :(17:47
macopack a lunch one day?17:48
stgraberwell, I can probably read the log afterwards though and deal with the few items I have by mail17:48
stgraberexcept the ISO testing and approving/declining members, I'm not that much involved in the QA team anyway17:49
henostgraber: also feel free to catch me or other team members on phone or skype at other times17:49
stgraberok17:50
henoSeems there is a majority vote too keep the current meeting time (UTC)17:50
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
henoany other business?17:50
henook, thanks everyone!17:51
heno#endmeeting17:51
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:51.17:51
pedro_thanks17:51
arathanks!17:52
LaserJock#startmeeting18:01
MootBotMeeting started at 12:01. The chair is LaserJock.18:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:01
LaserJockok, who all is here for the Edubuntu meeting?18:01
* morgs is18:01
benoitstandreis18:01
stgraberhello18:02
LaserJockwelcome morgs and benoitstandre18:02
dfarningDfarning from Sugar Labs18:02
stgraberhey benoitstandre :)18:02
tomeuhi all, I'm a sugar dev18:02
tomeu(though may need to leave soon)18:02
LaserJockok, our meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda18:02
LaserJock[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda18:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda18:03
LaserJockok, so it's awesome to see Sugar people here18:03
LaserJockI hadn't expected that, cool18:03
* morgs is a Sugar person too18:04
tomeuwhy not? we love ubuntu too!18:04
LaserJockwell, we just haven't had many Sugar people in the past18:04
macohrm where's lfaraone?18:04
LaserJockso awesome18:04
dfarningThere are a lot of schools using ubuntu, We would like to be a part of that!18:05
* morgs pings lfaraone18:05
LaserJockmorgs: ok, so since we have all the Sugar people here perhaps we should start with your menu item?18:05
morgsOK cool18:06
LaserJock[TOPIC] Introduction of the Sugar environment18:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Introduction of the Sugar environment18:06
morgsSugar is the educational platform / user interface originally developed for One Laptop Per Child, now operating as a separate upstream project under the governance of Sugar Labs.18:06
morgsWe have packages for pretty much the latest stable version in Intrepid (although Debian was a bit behind so there are some packages not completely up to date, but good enough...)18:07
morgsWe have a team to work on the packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam18:07
morgsI've been talking to Nubae about LTSP and he got that working with Sugar, so that's a point of interest.18:08
LaserJockcool18:08
stgraberyeah, I got it working on LTSP too (running on the application server, nubae is more focused on having it as fat client)18:08
morgsSo, we'd like to see how we can integrate with Edubuntu / Ubuntu for Education.18:08
LaserJockok, very interesting18:09
morgsAlso, we'd like to get more people involved in packaging, testing, etc18:09
tomeudeveloping... ;)18:09
LaserJockok, well I think for sure it would be great to partner with the Sugar Team on packaging18:09
morgstomeu: oh, that too :)18:09
dfarningpromoting and deploying:)18:09
morgsI lead the Sugar Team but am also an upstream developer18:10
highvoltagehowdy18:10
LaserJockhow large is whole sugar environment in terms of disk space18:10
LaserJock?18:10
tomeujust testing alone will be awesome18:10
tomeuhmm18:10
tomeuLaserJock: fedora jffs2 images (compressed) take 250MB, I think18:11
tomeuthat's the whole OS, though18:11
LaserJockwow, pretty big18:11
LaserJockok, so I have a couple questions about Sugar in general, as I haven't followed it a whole lot18:11
tomeuLaserJock: sugar itself is quite small, but uses pygtk, dbus, etc18:11
highvoltagesugar isn't suitable for general desktop use, is it? I know of a person who wanted to roll out LTSP labs running sugar on the desktops, but I initially advised them not to, since it seems to rely on programs being sugarised?18:12
LaserJockI know Sugar mostly as the OLPC OS18:12
LaserJockwhat does Sugar offer to desktop users?18:12
LaserJockgoing along the lines of what highvoltage just said18:12
tomeuhighvoltage: yeah, non-sugarised programs don't run very well yet, but is a goal for the current release to improve that18:12
highvoltagetomeu: that's good to hear18:13
tomeusugar offers an environment focused in education18:13
tomeuquite a bunch of activities18:13
tomeuactivities being sugarized apps18:13
tomeuwith colaboration, a journal where kids can reflect about their past work, etc18:13
dfarninghighvoltage: Sugar is designed for education - the key advantage of Sugar in a learning envirnment is the build in collaboration18:13
morgshttp://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"18:14
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"18:14
tomeuin a school lab, I see kids choosing to log into gnome, kde or sugar18:14
highvoltageah18:14
LaserJockok, so at this point we are looking at kids running Sugar in Ubuntu18:14
tomeusugar is a bit more ambitious, though. we aim to provide a desktop anybody would be interested in using18:14
LaserJockbefore it was so developers could develop for Sugar, not end-user ready18:14
tomeubut for now brings more value to kids18:15
tomeuand perhaps older people18:15
morgsCollaboration is a feature of the platform, which provides easy access to mechanisms for data sharing which can be used for synchronous collaboration. For example, we have a word processor which is shared in real time like gobby.18:15
tomeuyeah, kids should be able to use it quite profitably now18:15
LaserJockok, so it seems to me that there are 2 large scale tasks then18:16
LaserJock1) get Sugar into Main/Edubuntu18:16
LaserJock2) make sure Sugar works well with LTSP18:16
morgsThe Journal is used instead of a file manager, and offers a time line view on activities used at different times. There's no concept of loading and saving, file names or "where did I put that file?" It's all searchable.18:16
stgraberLaserJock: 2) just needs a correct ejabberd setup, 1) is just an apt-get install away18:17
morgsstgraber: intrepid ejabberd works unpatched, with minor config file tweaks18:17
LaserJockok, one point I know of is etoys18:17
LaserJockwhich requires Squeak18:17
LaserJockwhich we don't today have a free Squeak18:18
highvoltageejabberd could be shipped with the edubuntu add-on, along with some configurations that will work out of the box if someone want to do it so18:18
tomeuyeah, that's a pity :/18:18
tomeuetoys18:18
LaserJockis etoys essential to Sugar?18:18
morgsRight, the license is being worked on - for Fedora as well - and hopefully we can ship squeak in the near future.18:18
tomeuscratch is also quite cool, but also requires squeak18:18
LaserJockright18:18
tomeuLaserJock: not essential18:18
morgsNot essential, but it is a major feature18:18
tomeujust one more activity, but a cool one18:18
LaserJockok, well if we can kind of work on those in parallel it's good18:19
morgsThe major issue we had with packaging for intrepid was that the debian packaging is done by basically one person - Jonas Smedegaard - and he was a bit behind the stable releases so we couldn't sync the latest in.18:19
LaserJockI just don't want Sugar to hang on Squeak, because as the defacto Ubuntu Squeak guys, it's a mess18:19
LaserJock*guy18:19
morgsIt doesn't depend on squeak, only etoys depends on that18:19
LaserJockok, but it's something we should look at18:20
morgswe can use squeak if/when it lands.18:20
tomeuyeah, etoys brings lots of value to sugar18:20
tomeubut we have already lots of interesting activities, most of them based on python18:20
LaserJockok, so does the Sugar team sort of want to be part of the larger Edubuntu project?18:21
benoitstandreI think that Skeak / etoys are a separate thing from Sugar18:21
LaserJocksimilar to what LTSP has become18:21
LaserJockor do you want it to be sort of less "close"18:21
tomeuLaserJock: can you expand on the relationship between LTSP and Edubuntu?18:21
tomeuLaserJock: we should try to be neutral regarding distros18:22
LaserJockcurrently LTSP is a major part of the Edubuntu landscape18:22
tomeuas an example, RH is a very important partner of us18:22
LaserJockright right18:22
morgsLaserJock: working with Edubuntu certainly makes sense. We might want to produce our own LiveCD or something like that, without depending on LTSP18:22
highvoltagethere have been some local people who have been using edubuntu asking me lots of questions about sugar. it will be nice if it was easily available as an additional session for the real young kids.18:22
LaserJockI'm not saying Sugar upstream should be in Edubuntu18:22
tomeubut we know edubuntu is doing cool stuff, and would love to ride that wave18:22
highvoltageI think edubuntu can provide a very large test-user base for sugar18:22
LaserJockI'm just saying, should Sugar in *Ubuntu* be done as a part of Edubuntu18:23
morgstomeu: Sugar team = Ubuntu Sugar Team in this context...18:23
tomeuhighvoltage: right, that will have a great impact soon18:23
LaserJockmorgs: right18:23
LaserJocksorry for that18:23
LaserJockI should have been more clear18:23
tomeuooh18:23
tomeusorry then18:23
LaserJockfor instance, we have an Edubuntu Bugsquad team18:23
* tomeu is just a poor code with little time for anything else18:23
LaserJockwe could add sugar packages to our "radar"18:24
LaserJockwe can also provide sponsorship for package uploads, etc.18:24
morgstomeu! You're 33.3% of the upstream Sugar development team :)18:24
LaserJockI could imagine the Ubuntu Sugar Team as a sub-team of Edubuntu18:24
morgsLaserJock: that's awesome. Perhaps we can work out the details in separate discussions.18:24
LaserJockbut I don't want to presume that on the Sugar Team18:24
LaserJockI think Sugar could be very exciting to Edubuntu users18:25
LaserJockand vice versa18:25
highvoltageLaserJock is a core-dev, if anyone didn't know that. So he's available to use and abuse for sponsoring packages :)18:25
morgs"It's An Education Project" :)18:25
LaserJockmorgs: would you be able to drive some Sugar discussions on edubuntu-devel? so we can define things a bit more?18:26
morgsLaserJock: Sure.18:26
dfarningLaserJock: becoming a closer part of Edubuntu would be great, but we want to make sure that using Sugar is _a_ choice.  In the past we have been heavy handed in declaring that sugar is _the choice.18:26
LaserJock[ACTION] morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu18:27
MootBotACTION received:  morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu18:27
LaserJockdfarning: oh for sure18:27
LaserJockwe're not dropping things here18:27
LaserJockbut giving a new choice to Edubuntu users, IMO18:27
dfarningLaserJock: great18:27
highvoltagefor sure.18:27
benoitstandreI agree with dfarning. In the schools we deploy (ed)Buntu, Sugar would be a choice, specially for the beginning of the primary cycle18:27
LaserJockwe just want to make sure that people can get at it and most importantly that it works well on an Edubuntu18:28
LaserJockmachine18:28
tomeuwe can talk about displacing the other desktops in a couple of years ;)18:28
benoitstandrebut probably not going further, at least not in mixed environments as they are now18:28
LaserJocktomeu: world domination, one step at a time ;-)18:28
LaserJockok, awesome18:28
LaserJocklet's maybe move on though as our agenda is huge18:29
morgsThanks LaserJock18:29
LaserJockand we should continue discussion on edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users18:29
morgs+118:29
highvoltagemorgs: we should also get together sometime to discuss edubuntu stuff when I'm back in town18:29
LaserJock[TOPIC]Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?18:29
MootBotNew Topic: Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?18:29
morgshighvoltage: yeah18:29
LaserJockok, so I'd like to sort of start discussion about the future of Edubuntu and what it will look like18:30
LaserJockI was really impressed by Cody Somerville's job on the Xubuntu Strategy Document18:30
highvoltageLaserJock: have you put any thought into whether a xubuntu-like strategy document... ah, you beat me to it18:31
LaserJock[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument18:31
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument18:31
LaserJockso ^^ is the doc that Cody did18:31
LaserJockI think we probably don't need quite so much18:31
LaserJockbut it very nicely lays out the goals and objectives of the project18:31
LaserJockand how it's going to get there18:31
LaserJockwhat are people's feelings on this?18:32
highvoltageI like how they have long-term goals and how it's broken up into what's doable for the next release18:32
highvoltageit would be nice imo if Edubuntu also had some goals wrt usability.18:32
highvoltageusability for adults is not also the same as usability for kids18:33
LaserJockone problem for Edubuntu is that it's a niche target, but not exactly a well defined target18:33
LaserJockwe say it's Linux for Education18:33
LaserJockbut what is "Education"? who does that include? what are their needs? ...18:33
LaserJockso I think some direction in terms of what Edubuntu is really trying to accomplish would be good18:34
stgraber+118:34
benoitstandreas I see it from the "outside" , education is a lot related to "games", at least in the packages that are put upfront18:35
highvoltageit is indeed. many people also see it in terms of administration or functionality.18:35
LaserJockso for a couple minutes I'd like to get your opinions on what Education is and what Edubuntu's targets and goals should be18:35
benoitstandrea kind of things I think is missing for example now would be nice templates that are usable in classroom and being installed by default18:35
highvoltagein terms of administration, for example, I've known teachers who said that they refuse to use it in their labs unless it has some kind of content filtering system18:36
LaserJockso in terms of tasks I kind of see 3 areas: learning, teaching, administrating18:36
benoitstandreI think the main Edubuntu goals would be the usability in the classrooms18:36
highvoltageI wish we had more educators providing feedback and saying what they want. then it could be scaled and moulded into something that could go into a roadmap18:37
LaserJockhighvoltage: "build it and they will come" :-)18:37
benoitstandreI'm an educator :-)18:37
highvoltageheh18:37
kaingeoI want an easy installation of Ubuntu LTSP Server18:37
highvoltagebenoitstandre: ooh, great. I agree with you about usability18:37
nubaewell, content filtering is a moral/political issue18:38
LaserJocknubae: but it's an issue18:38
benoitstandreproblem is, depending on the task force we have, I think we should put our efforts in areas that are specific to educaiton18:39
nubaeyeah but it would slow down the server considerably.... are we talking about it being installed by default?18:39
stgraberkaingeo: what's that difficult at the moment ? (choosing an option in the installer)18:39
LaserJocknubae: no, having a good one available18:39
nubaedansguardian+squid or squidguard+squid18:40
benoitstandrecontent filtering, for example, is needed to work flawlessly not only in education but also in corporate environments. Couldn't Edubuntu be closely working with server-team for that ?18:40
highvoltagenubae: I think it should probably be as flexible as possible, so if an educator would like to run some of the management stuff on a seperate server, it shouldn't be too difficult to do18:40
nubaeright, in larger scenarios the filtering will definitely be seperated18:40
LaserJockbenoitstandre: I think, but could be totally wrong, that corporates tend to go with a bit different approach18:40
LaserJockbut that's a good point18:41
LaserJockmaybe we should talk to the Server Team about that18:41
LaserJockEdubuntu does have a start on a pretty nice content filter, willowng18:41
highvoltageit would be a nice 'task' on the ubuntu server disc18:41
dfarningThanks everyone - got to run!18:41
LaserJockbut it needs to be maintained and developed18:41
LaserJockdfarning: thanks for coming18:41
LaserJockdarn18:41
nubaethere are plenty howtos on content filtering, I think the howtos should be easily available via the website18:41
ogranubae, the thing is that most implementations really suck18:42
LaserJockyeah18:42
rockstarI've never used willowng, but dansguardian+squid is quite complicated.18:42
LaserJockrockstar: yes, that is a big issue18:42
LaserJockpeople just want to flip a switch and get content fiiltering18:42
ograwillowng was supposed to make that easier by using a bayesian filter to match bad content18:42
nubaeits not THAT hard...18:42
rockstarYes.  I've experimented with OpenDNS as well, to no real avail.18:43
ograsadly only white and blacklisting works atm18:43
ograopenDNS sadly breaks with all RFCs out there18:43
highvoltageso maybe on of the Edubuntu goals should be to simplify installations of really large and complicated but equally useful software so that educators could easily deploy and use it?18:43
ograthings like nebding your dns to localhost are not the solution18:43
highvoltageopendns can be quite annoying18:43
nubaehighvoltage: yeah18:43
rockstarhighvoltage, +118:43
ograsomeone should finally finish willowng18:43
highvoltageogra: what's it written in?18:44
LaserJockogra: yeah, we shouldn't waste that effort18:44
nubaethe problem with all the ones I've used and tested is they are slow18:44
ograpython18:44
rockstarMaybe that does need to be a goal of Edubuntu: a package that can just be installed and off you go.18:44
benoitstandreIn my opinion, Edubuntu needs to focus a lot on the usage by the childrens and teachers of the software18:44
stgraberyeah, content filtering is a spec we have since what 2 years ? It'd really need someone to implement18:44
nubaeit slows down webpages by several seconds18:44
ograrockstar, thats how it works right now ... its just not complete18:44
LaserJockok, perhaps we shouldn't get too bogged down into content filtering discussions18:45
rockstarogra, you mean willowng?18:45
benoitstandrethe "server thing" is important, but if all the efforts are guided towards that, we are missing a point (and then, why not just use any other flavor of ubuntu)18:45
ograrockstar, right18:45
ograbut LaserJock ++18:45
rockstarogra, okay.  I see.18:45
LaserJockok, so usability is big18:45
LaserJockintegration is big18:45
LaserJockgetting the bits to all work together so that you can just install and go18:45
ograbenoitstandre, that was the reason we splitted out ltsp into ubuntu18:46
ograso edubuntu can really focus on educational things18:46
ograinstead of server developemnt etc18:46
benoitstandreorga: that's great18:46
nubaehas the name been discussed at yet?18:46
LaserJockso something like "usability and integration of learning, teaching, and administration tools"?18:46
benoitstandrebut now, a lot of people just perceive Edubuntu is somehow LTSP with educational tools18:47
nubaebenoitstandre: right, which it isnt18:47
LaserJockone other possible goal item is actual educational content, what do people feel about that?18:47
benoitstandre+1 LaserJock18:47
ograwhich it actually was for quite some time18:47
ograbut shouldnt be18:47
LaserJocklike, as somebody said before, templates and such18:47
rockstarLaserJock, that's where I'd like to be focusing my time.18:48
nubaeI think a moodle should be included for edubuntu18:48
nubaesome place to collect and store the apps18:48
nubaestore howtos18:48
nubaeand most importantly courses18:48
benoitstandreI think this is a critical point, because people are willing to use the software (any one, OOo, Gcompris, whatever) , they open it, and they don't know what to do, since they don't have templates, or examples, or howtos18:48
rockstarLaserJock, content similar to XO Sugar's Activities seems like an obvious direction.18:49
stgraberyeah, we should continue to support LTSP because some people are still used to having LTSP support from the edubuntu team, but it's now an Ubuntu thing and so should be most other server-related stuff (but still keeping education in mind when developping as it's a major usecase)18:49
benoitstandrethat could be useful for just teacher and his students, but also in larger educational environments18:49
nubaeright now the howtos and help are purely for LTSP18:49
highvoltagebenoitstandre: that's more of a general Ubuntu problem though, isn't it?18:49
nubaebtu thats because the community really helped big time to get where it is now18:49
LaserJockok, so I'd like to kind of move along a bit18:50
LaserJockI think we've gotten some really awesome feedback here18:50
highvoltagestgraber: LTSP questions are always welcome in the edubuntusphere18:50
benoitstandrehighvoltage: could be, but for example, I know tons of teachers looking... just to do a calendar with whatever software that could help them to do so. I don't think this is a general Ubuntu problem, but it intersects with Ubuntu for sure.18:50
LaserJockwhat perhaps we can do is I'll create a sort of draft/template for the Strategy Doc and then we can move discussion to the mailing list and future meetings18:51
LaserJocksound OK?18:51
benoitstandreagreed18:51
rockstar+118:51
highvoltagebenoitstandre: I tend to think that that's a problem that can be best dealt with with the help of educators themselves18:51
stgraberLaserJock: +118:51
nubaeLaserJock: sure18:51
highvoltageLaserJock: agreed18:51
rockstarA mailing list would be better for this discussion.18:51
morgs+118:51
LaserJock[ACTION] LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list18:51
MootBotACTION received:  LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list18:51
LaserJockok moving on18:52
LaserJock[TOPIC]Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)18:52
MootBotNew Topic: Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)18:52
nubaeah :-)18:52
LaserJockok, this is a difficult one and unfortunately it looks like RichEd didn't make it18:52
ograthe latter should really be discussed with RichEd18:52
ograstick with edubuntu for commmunity activities i would say18:53
stgraberyeah, part of the problem is Canonical's marketing decisions, so we should really have Richard around for that point18:53
nubaeogra: one of the problems we have is the website is split down the middle with definitions for edubuntu or ubuntu in education18:53
LaserJockin our attempt to try to revamp/update the edubuntu.org site etc. we've come up against some confusion of terms18:53
ograthe brand is there and known18:53
benoitstandreogra: +118:53
nubaewhich brand, edubuntu or ubunut?18:53
benoitstandreedubuntu18:54
ograkeep the brand leave the opportunity to rich to pull stuff into the "ubuntu in education" realm18:54
LaserJockso I'd like to talk about our "branding" and "naming" and where we, as a community, would like to head18:54
ograedubuntu should be a part of ubuntu in education18:54
nubaeok, then why do we have edubuntu: ubuntu in education - LTSP classroom server18:54
ograand i dont see a community forming arund the latter18:54
LaserJockRichard has done some good work with http://www.ubuntu.com/education18:54
ograright18:54
LaserJockbut I'm still a bit confused as to where Edubuntu falls into all this18:55
nubaeyeah that page ecompasses a much bigger picture18:55
ograleave that to him, keep edubuntu distinct but a part of it18:55
nubaeLaserJock: aye18:55
LaserJockcurrently the /education stuff mostly talks about Edubuntu18:55
LaserJocki.e. gcompris, KDE Edu, etc. what we ship18:55
nubaebtw, the Ubuntu page has edubuntu and ubuntu in education defined18:55
* ogra doesnt see edubuntu mentioned anywhere18:55
nubaeits totally unclear (the ubuntu.com page)18:56
LaserJockogra: it's not at all, that's sort of my point18:56
ograit isnt18:56
nubaenot on that page no18:56
nubaeon another, as a totally seperate product18:56
ograit sas that this kind of software is available if you want to use ubuntu in edu18:56
LaserJockthe page talks about Edubuntu stuff without ever actually talking about "Edubuntu"18:56
nubaelet me get the link, there is even a download link18:56
nubaewhich takes u to ubuntu18:56
LaserJockso I'm a tad confused18:56
* Lns waves to all18:56
LaserJockso here's sort of how I see it, ogra please correct me if I'm wrong18:57
nubaehttp://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu18:57
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu18:57
ogranubae, that should vanish18:57
LaserJockEdubuntu is the community and product that produces the Educational Addon CD and generally takes care of educational stuff in Ubuntu18:57
ograits totally outdated18:57
nubaeright18:57
ograLaserJock, right ...18:58
LaserJockUbuntu Education is a larger, mostly marketing, project that looks at all uses of Ubuntu in educational settings18:58
ograubuntu in edcation can be a server farm of mail and webservers in an UIN18:58
ogra*UNI18:58
ograit can as well be a set of ubuntu desktops maintained centrally on an ldap and fileserver18:58
highvoltageand how would that really be different from ubuntu server then?18:58
ograor it can be a primary school using ltsp and the edubuntu addoncd18:59
nubaeright, its a marketing concept18:59
LaserJockok, so I get Ubuntu Education and I get Edubuntu18:59
LaserJockbut what about "Ubuntu Educational Edition"?18:59
ograhighvoltage, thats the point, ubuntu in education can be any kind of combo of the existing ubuntu products18:59
nubaeme too, I just dont get how they are defined to people,18:59
highvoltageLaserJock: that should certainly be "edubuntu"19:00
LaserJockfor Intrepid the CD is "Ubuntu Educational Edition 8.10 Educational Addon CD"19:00
benoitstandreI don't think a mail server, even in education, in considered like "Ubuntu in Education"19:00
LaserJockwhich is a real mouthful19:00
highvoltageogra: I guess I just have some difficulty getting to terms with the marketing of it19:00
ograLaserJock, yeah, thats chaotic19:00
nubaebenoitstandre: talking about the larger concept, its a marketing term, not really technical19:00
LaserJockso for Jaunty I'd really really love to get this all sorted and clear19:00
ograhighvoltage, if you want to use ubuntu in education you have all opportunities of the ubuntu world, not only edubuntu19:01
nubaeLaserJock: +119:01
LnsAre we actually defining these terms now or just trying to understand them?19:01
LaserJockso that we don't confuse users, or developers19:01
ograyou can use kubuntu desktop PCs and a ubuntu server farm19:01
=== Oxyhydrogen is now known as apachelogger
ograand install gcompris on them19:01
LaserJockLns: mostly trying to understand so we can define19:01
nubaefor support time length its defintely good its ubuntu now19:01
LnsLaserJock: ok19:01
ograthats ubuntu in education19:01
nubaebut really, why cant we just call it ubuntu with the edubuntu add on cd, made by the edubuntu community19:01
ograit shoudnt be bound to the edubuntu product19:02
ogranubae, right, thats what i say19:02
ograedubuntu is only a set19:02
LaserJockok, so I would suggest the following:19:02
benoitstandrecould we compare this to UbuntuStudio ?19:02
ograubuntu in education is the full universe of possibilities19:02
LaserJock1) the strategy doc should define what Edubuntu *is*19:02
nubaethe ubuntu in education is really the part thats confusing, as seen now by people trying to define it19:02
* ogra cant talk for riched though19:03
LaserJock2) we get rid of Ubuntu Educational Edition as it's the worse of all worlds19:03
highvoltageI'm really with nubae on this one19:03
LnsSo as I see it, there's a bunch of these initiatives and they need to be seen with some sort of commonality, in that Educational use is the goal. I guess ogra, you say that *is* "Ubuntu in Education"19:03
LnsAll of these things together19:03
LaserJock3) Work to make sure that there isn't confusion between Ubuntu in Education and Edubuntu19:03
kaingeoWhat about this: LSTP Server = Ubuntu Classroom Server, Edubuntu AddOn = Ubuntu Education Collection19:03
ograLns, ubuntu in education is more than edubuntu, edubuntu is a *part* of ubuntu in education19:03
nubaeLns: right, but we dont need that defined here, its a pure marketing term19:03
highvoltagein terms of marketing, it really doesn't help having confusing names and descriptions19:03
Lnsogra: right19:04
stgraberkaingeo: LTSP isn't part of Edubuntu, it's part of Ubuntu alternate, for a while now.19:04
ograhighvoltage, dont tell me :)19:04
* Lns agrees with highvoltage 19:04
ograhighvoltage, but its a topic only rich can actually talk about19:04
nubaehighvoltage: its ok if its not used in the discussion of edubuntu19:04
nubaewhich is I suppose why edubuntu isnt mentioned19:05
rockstarLaserJock, I'm the new guy 'round here, but I'd agree with your process.  That makes it clear what we're even talking about.19:05
kaingeostgraber: So LTSP has no marketing name what so ever!19:05
nubaekaingeo: actually it does19:05
stgraberkaingeo: IIRC we have a thin client for Ubuntu page on www.ubuntu.com, ogra knows better19:05
nubaeltsp is ltsp across 6 distros19:05
ograkaingeo, http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/technologies/ltsp19:05
* Lns opts for "ltspbuntu" ;)19:05
highvoltagekaingeo: of course it does! Ubuntu Diskless Edition :)19:05
nubaehighvoltage: lol19:06
LaserJockwell, I consider LTSP to be distinct but integral part of Edubuntu19:06
LaserJockEdubuntu wouldn't be what it is without LTSP19:06
nubaeas did I19:06
LaserJockbut LTSP is not limited to Edubuntu19:06
nubaeI say did, because the ltsp community migrated to ltsp-disucss19:06
nubaediscuss19:06
nubaeits now dead in the mailing list19:06
LnsLTSP never *started* with Edubuntu, Edubuntu just harnessed it as a primary focus early on IIRC19:07
nubaewell the lead developer was also the head of edubuntu19:07
LaserJockwell, it's certainly important to separate out "upstream" from what we ship19:07
stgraberright, Edubuntu is educational softwares on top of Ubuntu. LTSP can be used to make any Ubuntu system a thin client server. So the current way is to install Ubuntu with LTSP, then Edubuntu on top of Ubuntu and you get it on your thin clients.19:07
ograLns, well, ltsp5 did19:07
stgraberso yes the major market for LTSP is education but it's no longer part of Edubuntu, it's just the major usecase for it19:07
nubaelead developer = ogra19:08
nubae:-)19:08
ograedubuntu was the testbed for ltsp5 development for some years19:08
highvoltageI think people are too obsessed with what fits into what. It's not what it should be about. There are different subsets that ultimately form part of one bigger universe. We shouldn't be thinking too much in terms of branding that will limit us from expanding one subset too mch19:08
rockstarBut Edubuntu can exist with or without ltsp19:08
ograright19:08
nubaeI think the seperation is good, but we lost the community along with it19:08
LaserJockright, we need to look at that19:08
Lnshighvoltage: good point. There's always a different approach to looking at these things19:08
ograand i'm massively unhappy about the edu tag ltsp has ... it can save you so much if just used in an office19:08
LaserJockhopefully we just transfered LTPS people to the LTSP community19:08
nubaehow do we get them back, involved in both ltsp and education part19:09
ograLaserJock, i think we lost a bunck to k1219:09
ogra*bunch19:09
nubaewe did19:09
ograsince we dropped the combined single CD thing19:09
benoitstandreI think any teacher should consider installing Edubuntu on his Desktop. LTSP should'nt be a limiter to that, and Edubuntu should'nt just interest "server-tech" people19:09
nubaethats why the sugar integration is so important19:09
Lnsnubae: I don't think that's really the point is it? It should be their choice of which projects to be a part of19:09
LaserJockright, but it's not inherently because of Edubuntu no longer being upstream LTSP19:09
LaserJockit's because of decisions we made19:09
LaserJockand execution19:09
nubaeLns: yeah, but they should know there IS a edubuntu community19:09
ograright19:10
LaserJockwe made Edubuntu hard to use by splitting CDs19:10
LaserJockwe lost our developer community, for various reasons19:10
nubaeLaserJock: yep19:10
ograyup19:10
LaserJockand so Edubuntu wasn't as powerful an educational OS as it was19:10
LaserJockbut there's no inherent reason we can't regain that19:10
nubaewe killed it why it was growing :-)19:10
Lnsnubae: agreed - but I think the relation between LTSP and Edubuntu should be distinguished as two separate entities that *might* work well together, depending on who you are19:10
LaserJockand that's why I'm here and I hope that's why you all are here too :-)19:10
nubaeLns: agreed19:10
ogras/might/will/19:11
nubaeLaserJock: hear hear19:11
* ogra is here as consultant from the past ... 19:11
ograsince i dont have much time left to even look at edubuntu19:11
Lnsogra: you'll always be tied to LTSP and Edubuntu, no matter how hard you try to leave ;)19:12
ograif you guys dont keep it alive, it will die19:12
LaserJockso we need 1) a clear strategy to move forward 2) realistic, bitesize plans 3) execution19:12
ograLns, the day only has 24h in germany19:12
highvoltageLaserJock: I think you just about summed it up there19:12
benoitstandrelaserjock: +119:12
* Lns agrees as well19:12
highvoltageVote LaserJock!19:12
nubaerigh, ogra right now LaserJock doesnt have upload rights... shouldnt he have them? (hope I have that right)19:12
stgraberLaserJock: +119:12
nubae+1219:13
LaserJocknubae: I have every right I need ;-)19:13
nubaeoops, +1 even :-)19:13
stgrabernubae: what do you mean by upload rights ? to where ?19:13
nubaeah k19:13
ograLns, if my printer wouldnt have gone on strike and costed me the whole day to fix i would right now be on the autobahn, heading towards a mobile conf (which i'll do at 5am tomorrow now)19:13
ograstgraber, main19:13
rockstarIt seems that #1 in that list is the roughest part.19:13
highvoltageI wish we had autobahn :(19:13
Lnsogra: i suggest going to linuxprinting.org to help fix your printer issue ;)19:13
stgraberogra: isn't LaserJock a coredev ?19:13
ograstgraber, btw, you need to apply for motu so we get you past that TB thing19:13
highvoltageogra: I thought core-devs can upload to main?19:14
LaserJockit's currently only me with all upload rights19:14
ograright19:14
LaserJockand stgraber with rights to ltsp, etc.19:14
stgraberogra: yeah, I'll send a request for MOTU membership and ask you to +1 it :)19:14
ogranot yet19:14
ograstgraber needs to apply for motu first19:14
LaserJockogra: I'm taking it as a given ;-)19:14
nubaeah ok, seems good, now we have people we can nag19:14
stgraberLaserJock: not yet ... need to be MOTU first, then the TB might approve the limited upload rights19:14
ograthen we can get restricted main upload rights for ltsp and frineds for him19:14
LaserJockbut we need *more*19:14
ograright19:15
LaserJockI'm perfectly happy to sponsor people19:15
nubaefor what specifically19:15
LaserJockbut I'm not going to run Edubuntu by myself, bottom line19:15
nubaethis still confuses me19:15
ograhunting bugs19:15
ografixing packages19:15
LaserJockI need people looking bugs19:15
nubaeok, of the addoncd19:15
LaserJockif we have fixes, merges, syncs, etc.19:15
ogragetting in new stuff19:15
LaserJockif people create the packages I can sponsor them19:16
highvoltageLaserJock: you can call on me if I can do anything, but I'm practically on the point of giving up on my motu journey19:16
nubaewell the inclusion of sugar should bring people on board19:16
LaserJocksky's the limit there19:16
LaserJockif people get stuff ready I can push things in19:16
Lnsnubae: is there plan on putting sugar into edubuntu addon ?19:16
ograLaserJock, it should be discussed if edubuntu goes universe though19:16
rockstarI would REALLY like to be involved here, and I can set aside time to work on Edubuntu.19:16
ograbut thats another point RichEd needs to participate in19:16
nubaeis it multiverse now?19:17
Lnsrockstar: we welcome you and encourage you to find out what you'd like to help with most19:17
ogranubae, its main now19:17
nubaeah ok19:17
ogranubae, which means you need MIRs for packages etc19:17
LaserJockok, so here's a general point19:17
nubaegotcha19:17
ograso sugar will be painful to get on the CD for example19:17
LaserJock*anybody* can contribute to Edubuntu19:17
nubaeyeah scratch19:17
nubaewrong licensing19:17
ograno, i'D like to see it ... and more19:17
LaserJockbut if you don't have upload rights (everybody but me and ogra) you need to go through us19:17
nubaescratch the software19:18
nubae:-)19:18
ograah19:18
nubaenot take out19:18
highvoltageLaserJock: do you still need to be a motu if you want sponsorship for main?19:18
LaserJockwait wait19:18
LaserJocksponsorship is when you don't have rights to upload19:19
LaserJockso a developer has to upload for you19:19
* Lns welcomes alkisg 19:19
LaserJock*anybody* can contribute packages19:19
* alkisg says hi to Lns19:19
LaserJockthey will just need the package sponsored, most likely by me19:19
* Lns nominates nubae to work on moodle in edubuntu ;)19:20
LaserJockso is everybody clear on that part?19:20
Lnsyes19:20
* Lns is, anyway19:21
nubaeheh19:21
LaserJockbasically anybody can do pretty much anything in Edubuntu, it just needs to be sponsored by a developer19:21
nubaewell I've started the sugarlabs one19:21
nubaeso shouldnt be too hard19:21
nubaethere is lots of free moodle stuff out there19:21
nubaeso LaserJock I vote to get moodle installed and linked to edubuntu19:22
LaserJockmoodle is in Edubuntu19:22
nubaea moodle instance19:22
nubaenot the software to be installable19:22
ograapt-cache show edubuntu-server19:23
ograit is (currently the only) part of edubuntu-server19:23
LaserJockok, so I'd like to put out one last item out I think19:23
LaserJock[TOPIC]Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui19:23
MootBotNew Topic: Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui19:23
nubaeI mean a link like moodle.edubuntu.org19:23
nubaewith a moodle instance19:23
nubaenot the software on a cd19:24
stgraberLaserJock: -119:24
highvoltageyeah -1 on that topic19:24
nubae-119:24
stgraberLaserJock: we want it to be installable without requiring internet access, that's only possible with the alternate CD19:24
LaserJockstgraber: we could put it on the Edubuntu CD19:24
stgraberLaserJock: no19:24
highvoltagestgraber: would it be too hacky to use something like dpkg-repack on the livecd?19:25
LnsWhy can't LTSP be an option in all Ubuntu installation CDs ?19:25
stgraberLaserJock: you'd need all ubuntu-desktop and all dependencies on that CD19:25
highvoltageLns: technical reasons19:25
Lnsah19:25
LaserJockstgraber: ok, so that's a technical requirement19:25
stgraberhighvoltage: yes, not a way I want to go. We'd need to regenerate all packages, add them all to a fake repository and use debootstrap+apt-get on that19:25
stgraberLaserJock: yes19:25
stgraberLaserJock: we discussed that over a whole afternoon at UDS-Boston19:25
LaserJockstgraber: that's what I thought, but somebody put the agenda item up so I thought we should discuss it19:26
stgraberLaserJock: and the current way is the only non-hacky way to put it on the CD19:26
stgraberregenerating the packages from an installed system is not something I want to do19:26
highvoltageyeah, it's certainly not the ideal. just the only way I could think of doing it so far.19:26
LaserJockI was assuming you'd have to do it via internet19:26
ograyes, keep the classroom server setup for ltsp+edu19:27
ograno19:27
stgraberLaserJock: some of our users only have 56K internet access, downloading all ubuntu desktop is not an option19:27
ograjust the two CDs19:27
highvoltageor you could have a pre-shipped chroot on the CD, but that would take up a lot of dead space.19:27
LaserJockhighvoltage: for sure19:27
LaserJockok, one last CD item and we can close I think19:27
stgraberhighvoltage: remember we don't have any tool to update a chroot yet, so not good as you'd need a new CD for each security update19:27
LaserJock[TOPIC]Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?19:27
MootBotNew Topic: Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?19:27
nubaewhat for?19:28
benoitstandrelivedemo of what ?19:28
LaserJockI've always liked the idea of having a demo LiveCD that people could use to see what Edubuntu was all about19:28
benoitstandreà19:28
stgraberwe saw in the past that's it's really difficult to do a LiveCD, LiveDVD perhaps though19:28
LaserJockthe educational apps, etc.19:28
stgraberwe just don't have enough space on a CD19:28
nubaecant we use the web/moodle for that?19:28
highvoltageI suppose it would be for kdeedu and gcompris mostly at this stage19:28
benoitstandrenubae: I think that would be mixing things up. People want to try it "live" for the most.19:29
LaserJockclearly we can't stick everything on a LiveCD and I don't think we'd want LTSP19:29
nubaelinks to docos and howtos are more important19:29
highvoltageI think in the future when everyone has pink ponies and cars can fly, and edubuntu has it's own installable disc again, it should be on a DVD (or USB flash disk installer by default) and not CD19:29
benoitstandreI think a live CD of Edubuntu Desktop should be a good thing19:29
nubaetrying it live is installing with apt-get19:29
nubaenot so hard19:29
ograLaserJock, the prob is that it would be an ubuntu desktop liveCD with edu apps added19:29
LaserJockbut somehow I feel like we should be able to give people a chance to get a feel for what Edubuntu is without having to get 2 CDs19:29
ograthats not gonna fly space wise19:29
ograeven the desktop CD starts to be crippled already19:30
nubaeinstructions on how to download and test, + documentation would be better19:30
LaserJockogra: would you think the release team would go for an Edubuntu DVD?19:30
* Lns doesn't like liveCD/DVD anyway..too sluggish for most systems and not a good way to demo19:30
benoitstandrenubae: trying it live with a teacher that knows nothing about linux is not installing with apt-get :-)19:30
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team
nubaesynaptic19:30
ograLaserJock, ask cjwatson or slangasek19:30
highvoltageI also don't think Ubuntu is going to be able to stick to a CD for too long. If the Ubuntu CD is already getting crippled, how is it going to look like 2-4 releases from now?19:30
ograno idea, really19:30
morgsJust a quick point: The Sugar community is definitely interested in Sugar LiveCDs and LiveUSB images - there are several options already but no real official ones.19:30
LaserJockogra: ok19:31
LnsI think LiveUSB would be the future19:31
slangasekI'm not sure we have the mirror capacity to host such an image19:31
slangasekbut we could look into it19:31
LaserJockslangasek: ah, ok19:31
ograslangasek, i doubt it would have to be on official mirrors19:31
LaserJockslangasek: it would be nice to know if it's even feasible19:31
slangasekif it doesn't have to be on official mirrors, then you don't need to talk to us about it either :)19:32
slangasekcdimage.ubuntu.com is an "official mirror"19:32
ograLaserJock, you woul dhave to reinvent the edubuntu live session and seed19:32
nubaemorgs: whats the result with subuntu?19:32
ogranot sure how much thats desired19:32
LaserJockogra: frankly, not a lot by me, having to deal with all the seeds already :-)19:32
* stgraber thinks about adding two more DVD testcases to the tracker ..... bad ... testing Ubuntu is already hard19:33
ograright19:33
morgsnubae: that's one person's livecd at this point, so unofficial19:33
LaserJockbut I just wanted to throw the idea out there in any case19:33
highvoltagestgraber: that's a very good point19:33
LaserJockfor me personally as I look at Edubuntu19:33
nubaewill sugar be included in ltsp19:33
LaserJockI'd like to sort of shrink-and-focus19:33
ograyou could use ubuntu-umpc as a base, the mobile team has easy scripts to add/remove packages from the base image19:33
nubaethat ws one of my questions which is not related to this19:33
ograthat could give you an usb live image19:33
LaserJockI'd like us to pick some reasonable targets and do them well19:34
stgraberLaserJock: yeah, I thought we made it clear that we can't put the effort to manage a whole distro, so let's not try to create one, even if it's only for a LiveCD :)19:34
LaserJockthen expand19:34
LaserJockrather than trying to do everything all at once and doing a poor job of it19:34
ogra++19:34
ografocus on the addon CD and its app set19:34
LnsFor exposure of Edubuntu/other Ubuntu/LTSP to people who want to try it, do we really have to focus on liveCD/DVD/etc as the only way to promote it though? Look at YouTube, for instance. Think of how many people could get exposed to a demo session by someone who already knows what they're doing if we just got a screenrecorder and put together a really nice demo video of Edubuntu.19:34
LaserJockah good point19:35
nubaeLns: agreed19:35
LaserJockwe really could use a good YouTube campaign19:35
kaingeo_many schools have internet connections, i think is fare that can install an LTSP server with a simple package19:35
LaserJock:-)19:35
highvoltage*nod*19:35
* Lns opts to be part of the YT campaign19:35
nubaekaingeo_: they can19:35
LaserJockcoming off of the US elections19:35
morgsYes We Can!19:35
LnsI'm already looking to make videos promoting LTSP and related19:35
ograLns, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdvJIGQCVi019:35
LaserJockwe need a good grass-roots and internet based campaign19:35
highvoltageLaserJock: I strategically didn't say anything about that :)19:35
ograthats a ten part series about edubuntu19:36
LaserJockhighvoltage: I know, I know19:36
ograpretty awesome19:36
LnsLaserJock: yep..we need to hit it from all corners19:36
benoitstandrebasic question is: who do we want to convince with a liveCD-USB-Whatever ?19:36
Lnsogra: wow..see, look at what we have already!19:36
ograits there snce ages, but nobody picked up and promoted it19:36
Lnsbenoitstandre: I think that most people that we're currently trying to target might not understand the concept of a Live CD/DVD anyway19:36
LaserJockthe people I personally want to target are teachers19:36
LaserJockand as Lns points out, Live disks are maybe not the most effective way to reach them19:37
benoitstandrenot sure about that19:37
stgraberweb campaign sounds a good idea19:37
nubaeteachers need a moodle location to grab lesson plans/courses from19:37
ograLaserJock, tae ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key19:37
LaserJockso +1 for EduTube ;-)19:37
benoitstandrepeople need to "touch" it19:37
benoitstandreif they don't have the chance to test it without installing it19:37
LaserJockogra: ok, good idea19:37
Lnsbenoitstandre: Not saying a LiveCD/DVD *shouldn't* be used, but it's only one way of demoing19:37
ograLaserJock, just put up a reciepe how to do it if people want to demo it ;)19:37
ograLaserJock, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook19:38
kaingeo_nubae: i think that is the future. Ubuntu became big because is user friently19:38
ograsomething like that19:38
LaserJock[IDEA] take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key19:38
MootBotIDEA received:  take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key19:38
LaserJock[LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook19:38
MootBotLINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook19:38
LaserJockok, let's close up shop19:38
benoitstandremaybe resources are too low for a live cd, but, I don't think it's just because it's not a right way to show to people19:38
stgrabersounds better, it's just a howto, so nothing to maintain or to test19:38
LaserJockI've got writing to do ;-)19:39
ograLaserJock, also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification19:39
LaserJock[LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification19:39
MootBotLINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification19:39
LaserJockok, anything else before we stop for today?19:39
LaserJockI've had a lot of fun19:39
LaserJockand I hope you all did too19:39
nubaeinstall moodle19:39
Lnstoo short! i'm still ready to talk ;)19:39
nubae:-)19:40
highvoltageLaserJock: Hope we can believe in19:40
LaserJock1 thing19:40
LaserJocklet's really try to use the edubuntu-devel list19:40
benoitstandrelaserjock19:40
highvoltageLns: #edubuntu will be listening!19:40
LaserJockwe can keep a lot of these creative juices flowing *and* get more people involved than just the IRC discussions19:40
highvoltageLaserJock: agreed on that too. a lot of discussion fades away on IRC19:40
benoitstandrelaserjock: just subscribed to it :-)19:40
LnsLaserJock: quick question - can Edubuntu Desktop run alongside a "normal" ubuntu installation?19:41
Lnssay, with edubuntu-menus etc?19:41
LaserJockbenoitstandre: thanks for that, really19:41
nubaeas a seperate session?19:41
LaserJockLns: depends on what you mean by "alongside"19:41
ograno19:41
LnsLaserJock: example:19:41
LaserJockI mean, Edubuntu is on top of ubuntu-desktop19:41
ograits a thing that goes on top of ubuntu-desktop19:41
LaserJockso you can't exactly separate them19:41
LnsK through 12 school - have K through 3 on edubuntu desktops and everyone else on ubuntu dekstops19:41
Lnsok19:41
Lnsmaybe that could be something we could look into19:42
LaserJockLns: no, what i would prefer is to have Edubuntu gain that capability19:42
nubaeu cant create sessions like that?19:42
highvoltagethat sounds more like profile-based menus/sessions. LaserJock did do some work on that before.19:42
LaserJockI started some of that with the group-driven menuing19:42
Lnshighvoltage: yes19:42
LaserJockbut we could really really enhance that a lot more19:42
LaserJockwe could also do sabayon profiles19:42
LnsIn my experience, the younger kids LOVE edubuntu themes, but anyone over say 10 thinks it's "too childish"19:42
nubaeLaserJock: thats very interesting, lots of people have asked me about that too19:42
Lnsso it'd be great to have the flexibility to choose via group membership, etc19:42
ogranubae, look at edubuntu-menus19:43
LaserJockperhaps whole user profiles, etc.19:43
LaserJock*but* we need people to do the work, bottom line19:43
LnsLaserJock: yeah, user profiles would be great19:43
nubaenot just that, different users of different classes need different menus19:43
ograthats what its for19:43
nubaecool19:43
LaserJockso we need not only great ideas, but great work!19:43
nubaeIll look19:43
LnsLaserJock: agreed19:43
highvoltageLaserJock: I had a customer ask me for sessions/menus based on ldap groups. I could give you my hacky scripts if it would help19:43
ograit doesnt have any gui yet19:43
LaserJockso talk to educators around you19:43
LaserJocktalk to developers19:43
LnsWe need real gconf integration i think to make it work well19:44
LaserJocksee what educators need and convince developers to give some time to the cause19:44
LaserJock:-)19:44
LaserJockif everybody gets a couple people involved we'd take off like a rocket19:44
LnsI can only imagine the possibilities with true profile management under ubuntu..not just edubuntu19:45
LaserJockwith that19:45
LaserJock#endmeeting19:45
MootBotMeeting finished at 13:45.19:45
* Lns applauds19:45
highvoltageenjoy the autobahn ogra19:46
LaserJockwe should be scheduling another meeting sometime in the future here19:46
LaserJockonce we get up and running it should be a weekly or bi-weekly thing19:46
ograhighvoltage, nothing i enjoy at 5am19:46
highvoltagelike in the old days?19:46
LaserJockfor now, lets hit the edubuntu-devel list and generate some discussions19:46
LaserJockhighvoltage: yep19:46
nubaecool19:46
ograwould probably be good t establish something like the council again as well19:47
LnsCan someone post the full meeting to edubuntu-devel ? Maybe that'll get some threads going19:47
nubaeso Im still a little unclear... can we go ahead and simplify the download process and explanation of edubuntu on the site?19:47
LaserJockogra: agreed19:47
ograthere are some pending people that would like to become edubuntu members19:47
ograbut i wont hav etime to attend every meeting19:47
LaserJockLns: I'm gonna, email it, blog it, etc.19:47
LnsLaserJock: cool19:47
LaserJocknubae: yeah, lets talk about that in #edubuntu19:48
nubaeok19:48
benoitstandrethanks eveyrone, see you around19:49
nubaeyup.. ditto19:49
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
=== Rafik_ is now known as Rafik

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!