[16:01] <james_w> hi all
[16:01] <liw> hi
[16:01] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[16:01] <cjwatson> good afternoon
[16:01] <robbiew> hi
[16:01] <cjwatson> everyone but evand and doko here
[16:02] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is cjwatson.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <mvo> hi
[16:02] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Introductions
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions
[16:02] <cjwatson> so, post-8.10, first order of business is to introduce new members of the team
[16:02] <robbiew> I suppose that would be me
[16:02] <cjwatson> robbiew joins as the new foundations team manager, and mvo joins us from the desktop team
[16:02]  * mvo waves
[16:03]  * robbiew waves also
[16:03] <cjwatson> please make them welcome and help them find their feet as necessary
[16:03] <james_w> welcome mvo
[16:03] <james_w> welcome robbiew
[16:03] <liw> welcome, mvo and robbiew
[16:03] <evand> hi
[16:03] <cjwatson> I should probably hand over to Robbie at this point :-) Really the only other thing I had for this meeting was the 9.04 roadmap
[16:04] <robbiew> I don't have much, as this is my first meeting...
[16:04] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.04
[16:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.04
[16:05] <cjwatson> we are currently in the process of discussing requirements for a number of the bullet points there, and will be pulling several of you into calls
[16:05] <cjwatson> but, as usual, a lot of things will come from ourselves
[16:06] <james_w> that's quite a long list :-)
[16:07] <mvo> I suspect its getting even longer when we collect our ideas as well :)
[16:07] <james_w> if we have ideas for items, or UDS topics, where do we go with them?
[16:07] <cjwatson> robbiew: what do you want to do by way of collecting internal ideas? mail, wiki, ...?
[16:08] <robbiew> wiki is probably best
[16:08] <liw> which one?
[16:08] <robbiew> what would be the best location?
[16:08] <robbiew> under Foundations team on ubuntu wiki?
[16:08] <robbiew> or internally?
[16:09] <cjwatson> either's fine, probably best on the Ubuntu wiki
[16:10] <robbiew> right, no reason to keep internal
[16:10] <robbiew> how was this done for Intrepid?
[16:10] <cjwatson> ISTR I gathered items by e-mail and worked them into the agenda myself
[16:10] <cjwatson> it wasn't optimal
[16:11] <cjwatson> something on the wiki would be better, though it'll still need to be gardened into something resembling a coherent list of topics for UDS
[16:12] <robbiew> right...is there a preferred location under /FoundationsTeam
[16:12] <cjwatson> nope, create one :-)
[16:12] <robbiew> ok...will send out the link after the meeting
[16:13] <cjwatson> the major things that I think are likely to affect everyone are a push for machine-readable copyright files (probably per the Debian proposal, although exact details still to be fleshed out) and a general bug-fixing initiative
[16:13] <liw> cjwatson, copyright files > which packages would this affect? all?
[16:14] <cjwatson> the former doesn't very exciting, but a number of customers report that it's a pretty big deal for their legal departments to have to read /usr/share/doc/*/copyright ...
[16:14] <mvo> bug fixiing++
[16:14] <cjwatson> liw: at a minimum, everything in main
[16:14] <cjwatson> (you may say "yow" now)
[16:14] <liw> cjwatson, that's still a large number... sounds like doing it in collaboration with Debian would be good, for keeping the delta small
[16:14] <robbiew> with this and bug fixing, it's hard to see everything on the Roadmap getting done in time
[16:15] <cjwatson> yeah, that's why we're looking at the Debian proposal, which has already got some adoption
[16:15] <liw> . o O (Ubuntu could NMU all Debian packages in one go)
[16:16] <cjwatson> we're due a call to figure out the scope of a big bug-fixing push; essentially, this is coming out of an awareness that there are a lot of reasonably complex problems in the bug tracking system that have never quite made it up to the level of feature work and so we've never had time to fix them
[16:16] <liw> cjwatson, as I understand it, the Debian proposal is not utterly finalized yet (just practically so), so if we have additional needs, it'd be possible to get the proposal fixed, I assume
[16:16] <cjwatson> however, doing it right means figuring out a sensible list of targets, and figuring out how to measure how well we're doing
[16:17] <cjwatson> please drop me a mail if you have any personal targets you'd like to hit but have never had the time
[16:17] <cjwatson> it's not worth doing a half-hearted job of, IMO ...
[16:17] <robbiew> cjwatson: is this bug fixing effort only for our team? should/would Desktop and Kernel be included?
[16:17] <cjwatson> robbiew: Ubuntu-wide
[16:18] <cjwatson> we brought it up a few months ago and got tentative general approval
[16:19] <robbiew> Ok, so I'm thinking I should setup a call with the various team managers and tech leads
[16:19] <cjwatson> that's Thursday's call :)
[16:19] <robbiew> ;)
[16:19] <robbiew> right..thanks
[16:19] <cjwatson> liw: proposal> right
[16:21] <robbiew> cjwatson: should probably look at the "Dennis" project bugs for this effort as well
[16:21] <cjwatson> perhaps, though I'm not sure how many of those affect this team
[16:21] <robbiew> right
[16:22] <cjwatson> anyway, I'm done
[16:22] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:22] <robbiew> AOB?
[16:23] <TheMuso> Any other business.
[16:23] <liw> (Any Other Business)
[16:23] <robbiew> ah..thanks
[16:23]  * robbiew comes from IBM, so knows too many acronyms...just not that one ;)
[16:23] <mvo> not sure if that should be part of this meeting, what do you think bug #292179 is worth a string break (evms removal)?
[16:23] <mvo> (string break via SRU)
[16:24] <mvo> (or rather a string addition for the case when evms is in use)
[16:24] <cjwatson> looking
[16:25] <mvo> basiclly its about if /proc/mounts contain evms should we abort the upgrade (I think yes) with a error or do it and keep evms installed (but unmaintained becuase its not longer in intrepid)
[16:26] <slangasek> what, no autoconverting evms volumes on the fly to lvm2?
[16:26]  * mvo notices that he uses a lot of () today
[16:26] <cjwatson> I'm inclined to say that the severity of the bug is such that it trumps the risk of an untranslated message
[16:26] <mvo> slangasek: ha! that is a plan
[16:26] <mvo> cjwatson: yeah, my feeling too
[16:26] <slangasek> I agree
[16:26] <mvo>  especially since the string will only shown to a very small subset of users (that are affected by the problem)
[16:27] <mvo> thanks, I will do that then
[16:27]  * robbiew didn't know people still used evms
[16:28] <james_w> how is Intrepid looking? Is the upsurge in bug reports higher than for other releases? Are the more SRUs?
[16:28] <liw> should the division of duties between cjwatson and robbiew be explained?
[16:29] <cjwatson> https://wiki.canonical.com/TechnicalLead
[16:30] <cjwatson> exactly how this shakes out in practice we'll have to see; I suspect that task allocation in particular will be a bit of a joint effort
[16:30] <cjwatson> but I'll do what Robbie tells me to do here :)
[16:30] <robbiew> heh...too bad there's no /Manager page
[16:30] <liw> cjwatson, I meant, in public, for the community, or do they not need to care?
[16:31] <evand> Who do our activity reports go to?
[16:31] <robbiew> me
[16:31] <evand> ok, noted
[16:31] <cjwatson> liw: I hope it isn't important
[16:31] <TheMuso> I don't think its important.
[16:32] <mvo> james_w: intrepid is looking ok AFAICT from the stuff I looked at
[16:32] <robbiew> cjwatson: do you want to be cc'd on activity reports?
[16:32] <james_w> mvo: cool, I know you see a lot of the incoming reports from upgrades, so that's good news.
[16:32] <cjwatson> robbiew: I don't mind; I can be if you think it's useful
[16:33] <robbiew> cjwatson: right...as lead, I'm thinking you should be kept in the loop
[16:33] <mvo> james_w: there are still problem and some tricky looking issues, but overall it really looks ok
[16:33] <cjwatson> ok
[16:33] <cjwatson> bug 293586 is sort of embarrassing
[16:34] <cjwatson> that's a QA failure on our part :-/
[16:34] <robbiew> all: so send the activity report to me, but cc cjwatson
[16:34] <TheMuso> robbiew: Will do as of my next report.
[16:35] <evand> Perhaps we should add kickstart and regular preseeding to the CD testing?  Though that would make the already time consuming tests even longer.
[16:36] <cjwatson> it seems like one of those things that should be tested occasionally, if not necessarily every time
[16:36]  * slangasek nods
[16:36] <mvo> could we make that automatic?
[16:36] <mvo> I mean, kickstart sounds like its a good target for a autotest?
[16:36] <liw> evand, otoh, shouldn't those kinds of tests be almost completely automatable: you start them, and then don't need to bother with them until they are finished (unlike the usual kinds of tests, that require constant attention)
[16:37] <cjwatson> mvo: yes, I'd hope so
[16:37] <cjwatson> I'll mail heno and ask
[16:37] <evand> I had toyed around with the idea of doing automated install testing with KVM, but alas I do not have a server that supports it
[16:38] <mvo> I have good success with my auto-upgrade test setup with kvm, its not perfect, but found some issues for me that would have otherwise be found by users
[16:39] <evand> mvo: just out of curiosity, is the code to support that public?
[16:39] <mvo> evand: yes, part of the update-manager bzr tree
[16:39] <cjwatson> mvo: is there any way to get keystrokes into it? We'd need something along those lines to boot the installer with the right kernel parameters
[16:39] <evand> neat, thanks
[16:39] <cjwatson> or I suppose we could just use the kernel and initrd rather than booting a CD
[16:39] <mvo> evand: for this cycle I want to make a proper package out of it so that it actually get some outside attention
[16:39] <evand> cjwatson: kernel and initrd> that's what I was successfully doing on my desktop
[16:40] <mvo> cjwatson: keystrokes> I *think* so, there is a monitor interface that is quite capable that can be driven via stdio
[16:41] <mvo> cjwatson: yep, the monitor supports the "sentkey" command
[16:41] <mvo> the only big problem I found is the lack of reliable savevm/loadvm in kvm
[16:41] <mvo> otherwise it would be really perfect
[16:41] <cjwatson> ok, that's cool
[16:41] <mvo> (for my needs)
[16:42] <mvo> hm, you can even do mouse_move mouse_button events with it
[16:42] <cjwatson> anyway, it sounds like we're done and can continue this elsewhere, unless robbiew has any objections
[16:43] <mvo> yes, sorry for getting carried away
[16:43] <robbiew> nope
[16:43] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[16:43] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:43.
[16:43] <liw> thanks
[16:43] <james_w> cjwatson: any thought about the Debian RC bugs idea?
[16:43] <TheMuso> Thanks.
[16:43] <evand> thanks
[16:43] <cjwatson> robbiew: mootbot produces logs like those at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ (I think there's an upload delay though)
[16:43]  * TheMuso goes back to bed.
[16:44] <cjwatson> james_w: oh, I'd forgotten about that
[16:44] <slangasek> thanks, all
[16:44] <mvo> thanks
[16:44] <robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thx
[16:44] <liw> james_w, Debian RC bugs?
[16:44] <cjwatson> James had proposed that since Debian won't really be exciting until lenny releases, we put a bit of effort into helping both it and ourselves by resolving RC bugs
[16:44] <cjwatson> http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php?bydist=both&sortby=packages&ignmerged=on&new=7&refresh=1800
[16:45] <cjwatson> I don't think I got round to talking with anyone else about it at the release sprint, unfortunately
[16:46] <robbiew> cjwatson: with such a large list for Jaunty...bug fixes...and UDS topics still not settled...will there be time?
[16:46] <cjwatson> I'll mail it out to team leads for discussion tomorrow, how about that?
[16:46] <cjwatson> robbiew: most of these represent bugs in Ubuntu too, but point taken
[16:46] <james_w> cjwatson: thanks
[16:47] <james_w> I want to propose a "Debian RC bugs day" to the motu team where we get stuck in for a day, but it's a couple of weeks until I have the time to participate myself
[16:57] <ara> hello everybody
[16:58] <heno> hey all!
[16:58] <pedro_> hello folks
[16:58]  * ogasawara waves
[16:59] <bdmurray> hi
[16:59] <sbeattie>  hey
[17:00] <heno> #startmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:00] <heno> Congratulations everyone on a successful release!
[17:00] <stgraber> hey there
[17:01] <heno> The testing was quite hectic at the end but it seems we got there :)
[17:01] <stgraber> yeah, fun last iso testing night :)
[17:02] <heno> Agenda as usual here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[17:02]  * stgraber grabs some food (lunch time here)
[17:02] <heno> [TOPIC] Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?
[17:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?
[17:03] <bdmurray> There was some discussion about this in #ubuntu-bugs the other day and it was suggested that we use regression-proposed to identify these.
[17:04] <sbeattie> I think it would be reasonable to track these with a tag.
[17:04] <stgraber> +1
[17:04] <pedro_> yes, could those be added to the sru tracker page somewhere?
[17:04] <heno> Usually a regression found in an SRU candidate should block it's move to updates
[17:04] <pedro_> btw does anyone still have issues with sbeattie sru page?
[17:05] <bdmurray> sbeattie: Comments about epic failures should happen in the SRU bug though, correct?
[17:05] <heno> at which point it's not a regression
[17:05] <pedro_> it's way slow here :-(
[17:05] <sbeattie> But it needs to be made explicit that regression should also be mentioned in the original SRU bug as well.
[17:05] <sbeattie> pedro_: it's sometimes slow to render and I'm not sure why.
[17:05] <sbeattie> bdmurray: correct
[17:05] <heno> what would be a typical use case for this?
[17:06] <schwuk> Hi
[17:06] <heno> a proposed update that we object to on the grounds of a discovered regression? is that what we are tagging?
[17:07] <sbeattie> heno: yes
[17:07] <bdmurray> The situation that came up is that someone submitted a bug about a -proposed package for unknown reasons...
[17:07] <heno> Is the purpose to track historically how many SRUs were put forward with regressions in them or to have a list of currently blocked SRUs?
[17:08] <bdmurray> So tagging these bugs would allow the SRU verification team to find these regression-proposed bugs that the bugsquad has identified.
[17:09] <heno> bdmurray: oic, this would be a tab for new bugs filed against -proposed packages, not the SRU bug itself
[17:09] <heno> that makes sense
[17:10] <bdmurray> Ideally, this shouldn't happen as the person running the -proposed should know which bug to comment on but you never know.
[17:10] <ogasawara> on a similar note, the kernel team has now decided to open 1 SRU bug report for each 2.6.27.y upstream stable kernel patch set.  any regressions will warrant a new bug being opened for that regression.
[17:11] <ogasawara> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-November/003406.html
[17:11] <sbeattie> ogasawara: that sounds reasonable
[17:12] <heno> ok, looks like we are agreed. Let's add regression-proposed to the regression tracking description page
[17:12] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking
[17:12] <bdmurray> and update the EnableProposed page with the tag and commenting on the SRU bug
[17:13] <heno> sbeattie: will you do that?
[17:13] <sbeattie> yes, can you #action it?
[17:14] <heno> [ACTION] sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info
[17:14] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info
[17:15] <heno> [TOPIC] Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)
[17:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)
[17:15] <heno> We are processing Intrepid SRUs now, but there are still some Hardy SRUs outstanding
[17:15] <sbeattie> We got behind there due to focusing on intrepid, but I expect to start making progress on them again.
[17:15] <ara> I have a machine with a partition with Hardy, I could give some help clearing that up
[17:15] <sbeattie> ara: that would be great!
[17:16] <heno> ara: that would be great!
[17:16] <ara> sbeattie, heno: are you the same person?
[17:16] <pedro_> dude you're so connected :-P
[17:16] <sbeattie> I'm giving an open week session tomorrow on SRU verifications, I'll also solicit for assistance there.
[17:16] <heno> anyone else who can lend a hand, that would be appreciated too!
[17:16] <sbeattie> ara: I think you just insulted heno. :-)
[17:17] <pedro_> if someone could take bug 204133, that'd be really neat, that's the oldest bug there, 118 days old
[17:17] <heno> sbeattie: no, no. no worries :)
[17:18] <heno> it does look like a pure copy and paste though :)
[17:19] <heno> let's ask davmor to look at that when he returns
[17:19] <heno> our resident wubi test expert
[17:20] <bdmurray> I don't see a test case right away
[17:21] <bdmurray> It might make more sense to follow up with agostino and see what the status is / what needs to happen.
[17:22] <bdmurray> I'll do that since I reported the original bug. ;-)
[17:22] <heno> I suspect it needs to be release before the 8.04.2 respin
[17:22] <heno> bdmurray: ok, thanks
[17:23] <heno> openldap is old too
[17:23] <sbeattie> heno: good point, I'll milestone it.
[17:23] <heno> and python-apt
[17:25] <heno> sbeattie, ara: We've talked about runing an SRU testing day. Should we schedule that?
[17:26] <heno> (do others agree it's good idea?)
[17:26] <ara> heno: historically testing days are Mondays
[17:27] <bdmurray> sbeattie: you are giving a class at openweek right?
[17:27] <ara> (with a history of 3)
[17:27] <ara> :)
[17:27] <sbeattie> bdmurray: yes, tomorrow
[17:27] <bdmurray> perhaps capitalizing on that with a SRU day afterwards would be good
[17:27] <heno> this might be a good time, as we don't have ISOs to test
[17:27] <heno> bdmurray: good point
[17:29] <heno> ara: could you coordinate with sbeattie on a basic plan for the day and announce it?
[17:29] <sbeattie> ara: how much prep work did you do for the testing days?
[17:29] <pedro_> make sure to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning aswell ;-)
[17:29] <ara> sbeattie: some doc preparation and wiki update
[17:30] <ara> sbeattie: blogging and some spam on the lists
[17:30] <ara> heno: yes, sure
[17:30] <heno> [ACTION] ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday
[17:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday
[17:30] <heno> cool!
[17:31] <ara> heno: next Monday I am on holidays, though :(
[17:31] <ara> heno: but I can help with the prep work
[17:32] <ara> heno: and the post work
[17:32] <heno> ara: ok thanks. We can run it in your absence :)
[17:32] <heno> sbeattie and I work as one ;)
[17:33] <heno> [TOPIC] Application test cases
[17:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Application test cases
[17:33] <heno> There were some posts on planet about this yesterday and we've seen some new test case contributions
[17:33] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Applications
[17:34] <heno> It's good to see new contributions here though we need to merge it with the content here https://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/Applications
[17:35] <cr3> mpt mentionned that having a second website for test cases might cause duplication or desynchronization between the two
[17:35] <heno> The migration to the test case wiki was left hanging a bit during release, but we should pick it up again
[17:36] <schwuk> How are we going to handle redirection once we move to the new wiki?
[17:36] <heno> cr3: we are seeing some of that confusion now, but I think we should migrate all the cases over to the testcases wiki
[17:37] <heno> schwuk: redirect of just old test case URLs or WRT to the iso tracker?
[17:37] <schwuk> heno: the old URLS
[17:37] <LaserJock> heno: is there a particular reason to have a separate wiki for test cases?
[17:38] <ara> schwuk: I would change the pages to "there is a new test case wiki, please visit http:..."
[17:38] <ara> schwuk: redirecting will refrain people to know that there is a new one
[17:38] <maco_> sorry guys, i didnt know that wiki existed :(
[17:38] <ara> schwuk: and they could keep adding new test cases to the old one
[17:39] <heno> schwuk: adding a note about the new wiki on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases should do - I don't think we need to redirect all the pages
[17:39] <heno> pages in wikis move around and are deleted all the time; people are used to that
[17:40] <cr3> I'm not used to that, but that's just me :)
[17:40] <heno> LaserJock: it is so we can give it more structure, add custom macros, lock down pages that we then parse to generate scripts automatically, etc
[17:41] <heno> there are good reasons, we're just not there yet
[17:41] <LaserJock> just wondered, as Ubuntu has a bit of a wiki-mania problem ;-)
[17:41] <cr3> here here!
[17:42] <heno> ara: will you pick up the page migration effort again? please coordinate with davmor and the new contributors
[17:42] <ara> heno: yes. I have already talked with davmor about it. We are working on it
[17:42] <heno> ara: excellent, thanks
[17:43] <heno> (no action item required then)
[17:43] <heno> [TOPIC] Meting times (post DST change)
[17:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Meting times (post DST change)
[17:43] <stgraber> yeah, basically I'd like to avoid QA meeting on my lunch time :)
[17:44] <ara> "no, no please" would sound too pathetic?
[17:44] <stgraber> an hour before or an hour after would be great, or any other time (we can discuss it)
[17:45] <bdmurray> "no, no please" not before
[17:45] <ara> :)
[17:45] <heno> an hour before is 8.00am in Portland
[17:45] <sbeattie> bdmurray: c'mon 8am meetings are fun.
[17:45] <heno> ara: your 'no, no' was about an hour after?
[17:46] <ara> heno: yes. i was soooooo happy about DST!
[17:46] <heno> I would also prefer not to shift it later because we have another meeting after this too
[17:46] <stgraber> ara: yeah, so was I ... but I need a workaround for the next 6 months :)
[17:46] <pedro_> i would prefer no not shift ;-)
[17:47] <heno> stgraber: can you change your lunch time once a week?
[17:47] <pedro_> stgraber: lunch time was an issue for me previously to the DST :-P
[17:47] <stgraber> heno: not really, we usually go out for lunch and I can't hardly ask everyone in the company to change the lunch time :(
[17:48] <maco> pack a lunch one day?
[17:48] <stgraber> well, I can probably read the log afterwards though and deal with the few items I have by mail
[17:49] <stgraber> except the ISO testing and approving/declining members, I'm not that much involved in the QA team anyway
[17:49] <heno> stgraber: also feel free to catch me or other team members on phone or skype at other times
[17:50] <stgraber> ok
[17:50] <heno> Seems there is a majority vote too keep the current meeting time (UTC)
[17:50] <heno> any other business?
[17:51] <heno> ok, thanks everyone!
[17:51] <heno> #endmeeting
[17:51] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:51.
[17:51] <pedro_> thanks
[17:52] <ara> thanks!
[18:01] <LaserJock> #startmeeting
[18:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is LaserJock.
[18:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:01] <LaserJock> ok, who all is here for the Edubuntu meeting?
[18:01]  * morgs is
[18:01] <benoitstandre> is
[18:02] <stgraber> hello
[18:02] <LaserJock> welcome morgs and benoitstandre
[18:02] <dfarning> Dfarning from Sugar Labs
[18:02] <stgraber> hey benoitstandre :)
[18:02] <tomeu> hi all, I'm a sugar dev
[18:02] <tomeu> (though may need to leave soon)
[18:02] <LaserJock> ok, our meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[18:03] <LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[18:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
[18:03] <LaserJock> ok, so it's awesome to see Sugar people here
[18:03] <LaserJock> I hadn't expected that, cool
[18:04]  * morgs is a Sugar person too
[18:04] <tomeu> why not? we love ubuntu too!
[18:04] <LaserJock> well, we just haven't had many Sugar people in the past
[18:04] <maco> hrm where's lfaraone?
[18:04] <LaserJock> so awesome
[18:05] <dfarning> There are a lot of schools using ubuntu, We would like to be a part of that!
[18:05]  * morgs pings lfaraone
[18:05] <LaserJock> morgs: ok, so since we have all the Sugar people here perhaps we should start with your menu item?
[18:06] <morgs> OK cool
[18:06] <LaserJock> [TOPIC] Introduction of the Sugar environment
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Introduction of the Sugar environment
[18:06] <morgs> Sugar is the educational platform / user interface originally developed for One Laptop Per Child, now operating as a separate upstream project under the governance of Sugar Labs.
[18:07] <morgs> We have packages for pretty much the latest stable version in Intrepid (although Debian was a bit behind so there are some packages not completely up to date, but good enough...)
[18:07] <morgs> We have a team to work on the packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam
[18:08] <morgs> I've been talking to Nubae about LTSP and he got that working with Sugar, so that's a point of interest.
[18:08] <LaserJock> cool
[18:08] <stgraber> yeah, I got it working on LTSP too (running on the application server, nubae is more focused on having it as fat client)
[18:08] <morgs> So, we'd like to see how we can integrate with Edubuntu / Ubuntu for Education.
[18:09] <LaserJock> ok, very interesting
[18:09] <morgs> Also, we'd like to get more people involved in packaging, testing, etc
[18:09] <tomeu> developing... ;)
[18:09] <LaserJock> ok, well I think for sure it would be great to partner with the Sugar Team on packaging
[18:09] <morgs> tomeu: oh, that too :)
[18:09] <dfarning> promoting and deploying:)
[18:10] <morgs> I lead the Sugar Team but am also an upstream developer
[18:10] <highvoltage> howdy
[18:10] <LaserJock> how large is whole sugar environment in terms of disk space
[18:10] <LaserJock> ?
[18:10] <tomeu> just testing alone will be awesome
[18:10] <tomeu> hmm
[18:11] <tomeu> LaserJock: fedora jffs2 images (compressed) take 250MB, I think
[18:11] <tomeu> that's the whole OS, though
[18:11] <LaserJock> wow, pretty big
[18:11] <LaserJock> ok, so I have a couple questions about Sugar in general, as I haven't followed it a whole lot
[18:11] <tomeu> LaserJock: sugar itself is quite small, but uses pygtk, dbus, etc
[18:12] <highvoltage> sugar isn't suitable for general desktop use, is it? I know of a person who wanted to roll out LTSP labs running sugar on the desktops, but I initially advised them not to, since it seems to rely on programs being sugarised?
[18:12] <LaserJock> I know Sugar mostly as the OLPC OS
[18:12] <LaserJock> what does Sugar offer to desktop users?
[18:12] <LaserJock> going along the lines of what highvoltage just said
[18:12] <tomeu> highvoltage: yeah, non-sugarised programs don't run very well yet, but is a goal for the current release to improve that
[18:13] <highvoltage> tomeu: that's good to hear
[18:13] <tomeu> sugar offers an environment focused in education
[18:13] <tomeu> quite a bunch of activities
[18:13] <tomeu> activities being sugarized apps
[18:13] <tomeu> with colaboration, a journal where kids can reflect about their past work, etc
[18:13] <dfarning> highvoltage: Sugar is designed for education - the key advantage of Sugar in a learning envirnment is the build in collaboration
[18:14] <morgs> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"
[18:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"
[18:14] <tomeu> in a school lab, I see kids choosing to log into gnome, kde or sugar
[18:14] <highvoltage> ah
[18:14] <LaserJock> ok, so at this point we are looking at kids running Sugar in Ubuntu
[18:14] <tomeu> sugar is a bit more ambitious, though. we aim to provide a desktop anybody would be interested in using
[18:14] <LaserJock> before it was so developers could develop for Sugar, not end-user ready
[18:15] <tomeu> but for now brings more value to kids
[18:15] <tomeu> and perhaps older people
[18:15] <morgs> Collaboration is a feature of the platform, which provides easy access to mechanisms for data sharing which can be used for synchronous collaboration. For example, we have a word processor which is shared in real time like gobby.
[18:15] <tomeu> yeah, kids should be able to use it quite profitably now
[18:16] <LaserJock> ok, so it seems to me that there are 2 large scale tasks then
[18:16] <LaserJock> 1) get Sugar into Main/Edubuntu
[18:16] <LaserJock> 2) make sure Sugar works well with LTSP
[18:16] <morgs> The Journal is used instead of a file manager, and offers a time line view on activities used at different times. There's no concept of loading and saving, file names or "where did I put that file?" It's all searchable.
[18:17] <stgraber> LaserJock: 2) just needs a correct ejabberd setup, 1) is just an apt-get install away
[18:17] <morgs> stgraber: intrepid ejabberd works unpatched, with minor config file tweaks
[18:17] <LaserJock> ok, one point I know of is etoys
[18:17] <LaserJock> which requires Squeak
[18:18] <LaserJock> which we don't today have a free Squeak
[18:18] <highvoltage> ejabberd could be shipped with the edubuntu add-on, along with some configurations that will work out of the box if someone want to do it so
[18:18] <tomeu> yeah, that's a pity :/
[18:18] <tomeu> etoys
[18:18] <LaserJock> is etoys essential to Sugar?
[18:18] <morgs> Right, the license is being worked on - for Fedora as well - and hopefully we can ship squeak in the near future.
[18:18] <tomeu> scratch is also quite cool, but also requires squeak
[18:18] <LaserJock> right
[18:18] <tomeu> LaserJock: not essential
[18:18] <morgs> Not essential, but it is a major feature
[18:18] <tomeu> just one more activity, but a cool one
[18:19] <LaserJock> ok, well if we can kind of work on those in parallel it's good
[18:19] <morgs> The major issue we had with packaging for intrepid was that the debian packaging is done by basically one person - Jonas Smedegaard - and he was a bit behind the stable releases so we couldn't sync the latest in.
[18:19] <LaserJock> I just don't want Sugar to hang on Squeak, because as the defacto Ubuntu Squeak guys, it's a mess
[18:19] <LaserJock> *guy
[18:19] <morgs> It doesn't depend on squeak, only etoys depends on that
[18:20] <LaserJock> ok, but it's something we should look at
[18:20] <morgs> we can use squeak if/when it lands.
[18:20] <tomeu> yeah, etoys brings lots of value to sugar
[18:20] <tomeu> but we have already lots of interesting activities, most of them based on python
[18:21] <LaserJock> ok, so does the Sugar team sort of want to be part of the larger Edubuntu project?
[18:21] <benoitstandre> I think that Skeak / etoys are a separate thing from Sugar
[18:21] <LaserJock> similar to what LTSP has become
[18:21] <LaserJock> or do you want it to be sort of less "close"
[18:21] <tomeu> LaserJock: can you expand on the relationship between LTSP and Edubuntu?
[18:22] <tomeu> LaserJock: we should try to be neutral regarding distros
[18:22] <LaserJock> currently LTSP is a major part of the Edubuntu landscape
[18:22] <tomeu> as an example, RH is a very important partner of us
[18:22] <LaserJock> right right
[18:22] <morgs> LaserJock: working with Edubuntu certainly makes sense. We might want to produce our own LiveCD or something like that, without depending on LTSP
[18:22] <highvoltage> there have been some local people who have been using edubuntu asking me lots of questions about sugar. it will be nice if it was easily available as an additional session for the real young kids.
[18:22] <LaserJock> I'm not saying Sugar upstream should be in Edubuntu
[18:22] <tomeu> but we know edubuntu is doing cool stuff, and would love to ride that wave
[18:22] <highvoltage> I think edubuntu can provide a very large test-user base for sugar
[18:23] <LaserJock> I'm just saying, should Sugar in *Ubuntu* be done as a part of Edubuntu
[18:23] <morgs> tomeu: Sugar team = Ubuntu Sugar Team in this context...
[18:23] <tomeu> highvoltage: right, that will have a great impact soon
[18:23] <LaserJock> morgs: right
[18:23] <LaserJock> sorry for that
[18:23] <LaserJock> I should have been more clear
[18:23] <tomeu> ooh
[18:23] <tomeu> sorry then
[18:23] <LaserJock> for instance, we have an Edubuntu Bugsquad team
[18:23]  * tomeu is just a poor code with little time for anything else
[18:24] <LaserJock> we could add sugar packages to our "radar"
[18:24] <LaserJock> we can also provide sponsorship for package uploads, etc.
[18:24] <morgs> tomeu! You're 33.3% of the upstream Sugar development team :)
[18:24] <LaserJock> I could imagine the Ubuntu Sugar Team as a sub-team of Edubuntu
[18:24] <morgs> LaserJock: that's awesome. Perhaps we can work out the details in separate discussions.
[18:24] <LaserJock> but I don't want to presume that on the Sugar Team
[18:25] <LaserJock> I think Sugar could be very exciting to Edubuntu users
[18:25] <LaserJock> and vice versa
[18:25] <highvoltage> LaserJock is a core-dev, if anyone didn't know that. So he's available to use and abuse for sponsoring packages :)
[18:25] <morgs> "It's An Education Project" :)
[18:26] <LaserJock> morgs: would you be able to drive some Sugar discussions on edubuntu-devel? so we can define things a bit more?
[18:26] <morgs> LaserJock: Sure.
[18:26] <dfarning> LaserJock: becoming a closer part of Edubuntu would be great, but we want to make sure that using Sugar is _a_ choice.  In the past we have been heavy handed in declaring that sugar is _the choice.
[18:27] <LaserJock> [ACTION] morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu
[18:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu
[18:27] <LaserJock> dfarning: oh for sure
[18:27] <LaserJock> we're not dropping things here
[18:27] <LaserJock> but giving a new choice to Edubuntu users, IMO
[18:27] <dfarning> LaserJock: great
[18:27] <highvoltage> for sure.
[18:27] <benoitstandre> I agree with dfarning. In the schools we deploy (ed)Buntu, Sugar would be a choice, specially for the beginning of the primary cycle
[18:28] <LaserJock> we just want to make sure that people can get at it and most importantly that it works well on an Edubuntu
[18:28] <LaserJock> machine
[18:28] <tomeu> we can talk about displacing the other desktops in a couple of years ;)
[18:28] <benoitstandre> but probably not going further, at least not in mixed environments as they are now
[18:28] <LaserJock> tomeu: world domination, one step at a time ;-)
[18:28] <LaserJock> ok, awesome
[18:29] <LaserJock> let's maybe move on though as our agenda is huge
[18:29] <morgs> Thanks LaserJock
[18:29] <LaserJock> and we should continue discussion on edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users
[18:29] <morgs> +1
[18:29] <highvoltage> morgs: we should also get together sometime to discuss edubuntu stuff when I'm back in town
[18:29] <LaserJock> [TOPIC]Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?
[18:29] <MootBot> New Topic: Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?
[18:29] <morgs> highvoltage: yeah
[18:30] <LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to sort of start discussion about the future of Edubuntu and what it will look like
[18:30] <LaserJock> I was really impressed by Cody Somerville's job on the Xubuntu Strategy Document
[18:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: have you put any thought into whether a xubuntu-like strategy document... ah, you beat me to it
[18:31] <LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
[18:31] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
[18:31] <LaserJock> so ^^ is the doc that Cody did
[18:31] <LaserJock> I think we probably don't need quite so much
[18:31] <LaserJock> but it very nicely lays out the goals and objectives of the project
[18:31] <LaserJock> and how it's going to get there
[18:32] <LaserJock> what are people's feelings on this?
[18:32] <highvoltage> I like how they have long-term goals and how it's broken up into what's doable for the next release
[18:32] <highvoltage> it would be nice imo if Edubuntu also had some goals wrt usability.
[18:33] <highvoltage> usability for adults is not also the same as usability for kids
[18:33] <LaserJock> one problem for Edubuntu is that it's a niche target, but not exactly a well defined target
[18:33] <LaserJock> we say it's Linux for Education
[18:33] <LaserJock> but what is "Education"? who does that include? what are their needs? ...
[18:34] <LaserJock> so I think some direction in terms of what Edubuntu is really trying to accomplish would be good
[18:34] <stgraber> +1
[18:35] <benoitstandre> as I see it from the "outside" , education is a lot related to "games", at least in the packages that are put upfront
[18:35] <highvoltage> it is indeed. many people also see it in terms of administration or functionality.
[18:35] <LaserJock> so for a couple minutes I'd like to get your opinions on what Education is and what Edubuntu's targets and goals should be
[18:35] <benoitstandre> a kind of things I think is missing for example now would be nice templates that are usable in classroom and being installed by default
[18:36] <highvoltage> in terms of administration, for example, I've known teachers who said that they refuse to use it in their labs unless it has some kind of content filtering system
[18:36] <LaserJock> so in terms of tasks I kind of see 3 areas: learning, teaching, administrating
[18:36] <benoitstandre> I think the main Edubuntu goals would be the usability in the classrooms
[18:37] <highvoltage> I wish we had more educators providing feedback and saying what they want. then it could be scaled and moulded into something that could go into a roadmap
[18:37] <LaserJock> highvoltage: "build it and they will come" :-)
[18:37] <benoitstandre> I'm an educator :-)
[18:37] <highvoltage> heh
[18:37] <kaingeo> I want an easy installation of Ubuntu LTSP Server
[18:37] <highvoltage> benoitstandre: ooh, great. I agree with you about usability
[18:38] <nubae> well, content filtering is a moral/political issue
[18:38] <LaserJock> nubae: but it's an issue
[18:39] <benoitstandre> problem is, depending on the task force we have, I think we should put our efforts in areas that are specific to educaiton
[18:39] <nubae> yeah but it would slow down the server considerably.... are we talking about it being installed by default?
[18:39] <stgraber> kaingeo: what's that difficult at the moment ? (choosing an option in the installer)
[18:39] <LaserJock> nubae: no, having a good one available
[18:40] <nubae> dansguardian+squid or squidguard+squid
[18:40] <benoitstandre> content filtering, for example, is needed to work flawlessly not only in education but also in corporate environments. Couldn't Edubuntu be closely working with server-team for that ?
[18:40] <highvoltage> nubae: I think it should probably be as flexible as possible, so if an educator would like to run some of the management stuff on a seperate server, it shouldn't be too difficult to do
[18:40] <nubae> right, in larger scenarios the filtering will definitely be seperated
[18:40] <LaserJock> benoitstandre: I think, but could be totally wrong, that corporates tend to go with a bit different approach
[18:41] <LaserJock> but that's a good point
[18:41] <LaserJock> maybe we should talk to the Server Team about that
[18:41] <LaserJock> Edubuntu does have a start on a pretty nice content filter, willowng
[18:41] <highvoltage> it would be a nice 'task' on the ubuntu server disc
[18:41] <dfarning> Thanks everyone - got to run!
[18:41] <LaserJock> but it needs to be maintained and developed
[18:41] <LaserJock> dfarning: thanks for coming
[18:41] <LaserJock> darn
[18:41] <nubae> there are plenty howtos on content filtering, I think the howtos should be easily available via the website
[18:42] <ogra> nubae, the thing is that most implementations really suck
[18:42] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:42] <rockstar> I've never used willowng, but dansguardian+squid is quite complicated.
[18:42] <LaserJock> rockstar: yes, that is a big issue
[18:42] <LaserJock> people just want to flip a switch and get content fiiltering
[18:42] <ogra> willowng was supposed to make that easier by using a bayesian filter to match bad content
[18:42] <nubae> its not THAT hard...
[18:43] <rockstar> Yes.  I've experimented with OpenDNS as well, to no real avail.
[18:43] <ogra> sadly only white and blacklisting works atm
[18:43] <ogra> openDNS sadly breaks with all RFCs out there
[18:43] <highvoltage> so maybe on of the Edubuntu goals should be to simplify installations of really large and complicated but equally useful software so that educators could easily deploy and use it?
[18:43] <ogra> things like nebding your dns to localhost are not the solution
[18:43] <highvoltage> opendns can be quite annoying
[18:43] <nubae> highvoltage: yeah
[18:43] <rockstar> highvoltage, +1
[18:43] <ogra> someone should finally finish willowng
[18:44] <highvoltage> ogra: what's it written in?
[18:44] <LaserJock> ogra: yeah, we shouldn't waste that effort
[18:44] <nubae> the problem with all the ones I've used and tested is they are slow
[18:44] <ogra> python
[18:44] <rockstar> Maybe that does need to be a goal of Edubuntu: a package that can just be installed and off you go.
[18:44] <benoitstandre> In my opinion, Edubuntu needs to focus a lot on the usage by the childrens and teachers of the software
[18:44] <stgraber> yeah, content filtering is a spec we have since what 2 years ? It'd really need someone to implement
[18:44] <nubae> it slows down webpages by several seconds
[18:44] <ogra> rockstar, thats how it works right now ... its just not complete
[18:45] <LaserJock> ok, perhaps we shouldn't get too bogged down into content filtering discussions
[18:45] <rockstar> ogra, you mean willowng?
[18:45] <benoitstandre> the "server thing" is important, but if all the efforts are guided towards that, we are missing a point (and then, why not just use any other flavor of ubuntu)
[18:45] <ogra> rockstar, right
[18:45] <ogra> but LaserJock ++
[18:45] <rockstar> ogra, okay.  I see.
[18:45] <LaserJock> ok, so usability is big
[18:45] <LaserJock> integration is big
[18:45] <LaserJock> getting the bits to all work together so that you can just install and go
[18:46] <ogra> benoitstandre, that was the reason we splitted out ltsp into ubuntu
[18:46] <ogra> so edubuntu can really focus on educational things
[18:46] <ogra> instead of server developemnt etc
[18:46] <benoitstandre> orga: that's great
[18:46] <nubae> has the name been discussed at yet?
[18:46] <LaserJock> so something like "usability and integration of learning, teaching, and administration tools"?
[18:47] <benoitstandre> but now, a lot of people just perceive Edubuntu is somehow LTSP with educational tools
[18:47] <nubae> benoitstandre: right, which it isnt
[18:47] <LaserJock> one other possible goal item is actual educational content, what do people feel about that?
[18:47] <benoitstandre> +1 LaserJock
[18:47] <ogra> which it actually was for quite some time
[18:47] <ogra> but shouldnt be
[18:47] <LaserJock> like, as somebody said before, templates and such
[18:48] <rockstar> LaserJock, that's where I'd like to be focusing my time.
[18:48] <nubae> I think a moodle should be included for edubuntu
[18:48] <nubae> some place to collect and store the apps
[18:48] <nubae> store howtos
[18:48] <nubae> and most importantly courses
[18:48] <benoitstandre> I think this is a critical point, because people are willing to use the software (any one, OOo, Gcompris, whatever) , they open it, and they don't know what to do, since they don't have templates, or examples, or howtos
[18:49] <rockstar> LaserJock, content similar to XO Sugar's Activities seems like an obvious direction.
[18:49] <stgraber> yeah, we should continue to support LTSP because some people are still used to having LTSP support from the edubuntu team, but it's now an Ubuntu thing and so should be most other server-related stuff (but still keeping education in mind when developping as it's a major usecase)
[18:49] <benoitstandre> that could be useful for just teacher and his students, but also in larger educational environments
[18:49] <nubae> right now the howtos and help are purely for LTSP
[18:49] <highvoltage> benoitstandre: that's more of a general Ubuntu problem though, isn't it?
[18:49] <nubae> btu thats because the community really helped big time to get where it is now
[18:50] <LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to kind of move along a bit
[18:50] <LaserJock> I think we've gotten some really awesome feedback here
[18:50] <highvoltage> stgraber: LTSP questions are always welcome in the edubuntusphere
[18:50] <benoitstandre> highvoltage: could be, but for example, I know tons of teachers looking... just to do a calendar with whatever software that could help them to do so. I don't think this is a general Ubuntu problem, but it intersects with Ubuntu for sure.
[18:51] <LaserJock> what perhaps we can do is I'll create a sort of draft/template for the Strategy Doc and then we can move discussion to the mailing list and future meetings
[18:51] <LaserJock> sound OK?
[18:51] <benoitstandre> agreed
[18:51] <rockstar> +1
[18:51] <highvoltage> benoitstandre: I tend to think that that's a problem that can be best dealt with with the help of educators themselves
[18:51] <stgraber> LaserJock: +1
[18:51] <nubae> LaserJock: sure
[18:51] <highvoltage> LaserJock: agreed
[18:51] <rockstar> A mailing list would be better for this discussion.
[18:51] <morgs> +1
[18:51] <LaserJock> [ACTION] LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list
[18:51] <MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list
[18:52] <LaserJock> ok moving on
[18:52] <LaserJock> [TOPIC]Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)
[18:52] <MootBot> New Topic: Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)
[18:52] <nubae> ah :-)
[18:52] <LaserJock> ok, this is a difficult one and unfortunately it looks like RichEd didn't make it
[18:52] <ogra> the latter should really be discussed with RichEd
[18:53] <ogra> stick with edubuntu for commmunity activities i would say
[18:53] <stgraber> yeah, part of the problem is Canonical's marketing decisions, so we should really have Richard around for that point
[18:53] <nubae> ogra: one of the problems we have is the website is split down the middle with definitions for edubuntu or ubuntu in education
[18:53] <LaserJock> in our attempt to try to revamp/update the edubuntu.org site etc. we've come up against some confusion of terms
[18:53] <ogra> the brand is there and known
[18:53] <benoitstandre> ogra: +1
[18:53] <nubae> which brand, edubuntu or ubunut?
[18:54] <benoitstandre> edubuntu
[18:54] <ogra> keep the brand leave the opportunity to rich to pull stuff into the "ubuntu in education" realm
[18:54] <LaserJock> so I'd like to talk about our "branding" and "naming" and where we, as a community, would like to head
[18:54] <ogra> edubuntu should be a part of ubuntu in education
[18:54] <nubae> ok, then why do we have edubuntu: ubuntu in education - LTSP classroom server
[18:54] <ogra> and i dont see a community forming arund the latter
[18:54] <LaserJock> Richard has done some good work with http://www.ubuntu.com/education
[18:54] <ogra> right
[18:55] <LaserJock> but I'm still a bit confused as to where Edubuntu falls into all this
[18:55] <nubae> yeah that page ecompasses a much bigger picture
[18:55] <ogra> leave that to him, keep edubuntu distinct but a part of it
[18:55] <nubae> LaserJock: aye
[18:55] <LaserJock> currently the /education stuff mostly talks about Edubuntu
[18:55] <LaserJock> i.e. gcompris, KDE Edu, etc. what we ship
[18:55] <nubae> btw, the Ubuntu page has edubuntu and ubuntu in education defined
[18:55]  * ogra doesnt see edubuntu mentioned anywhere
[18:56] <nubae> its totally unclear (the ubuntu.com page)
[18:56] <LaserJock> ogra: it's not at all, that's sort of my point
[18:56] <ogra> it isnt
[18:56] <nubae> not on that page no
[18:56] <nubae> on another, as a totally seperate product
[18:56] <ogra> it sas that this kind of software is available if you want to use ubuntu in edu
[18:56] <LaserJock> the page talks about Edubuntu stuff without ever actually talking about "Edubuntu"
[18:56] <nubae> let me get the link, there is even a download link
[18:56] <nubae> which takes u to ubuntu
[18:56] <LaserJock> so I'm a tad confused
[18:56]  * Lns waves to all
[18:57] <LaserJock> so here's sort of how I see it, ogra please correct me if I'm wrong
[18:57] <nubae> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu
[18:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu
[18:57] <ogra> nubae, that should vanish
[18:57] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is the community and product that produces the Educational Addon CD and generally takes care of educational stuff in Ubuntu
[18:57] <ogra> its totally outdated
[18:57] <nubae> right
[18:58] <ogra> LaserJock, right ...
[18:58] <LaserJock> Ubuntu Education is a larger, mostly marketing, project that looks at all uses of Ubuntu in educational settings
[18:58] <ogra> ubuntu in edcation can be a server farm of mail and webservers in an UIN
[18:58] <ogra> *UNI
[18:58] <ogra> it can as well be a set of ubuntu desktops maintained centrally on an ldap and fileserver
[18:58] <highvoltage> and how would that really be different from ubuntu server then?
[18:59] <ogra> or it can be a primary school using ltsp and the edubuntu addoncd
[18:59] <nubae> right, its a marketing concept
[18:59] <LaserJock> ok, so I get Ubuntu Education and I get Edubuntu
[18:59] <LaserJock> but what about "Ubuntu Educational Edition"?
[18:59] <ogra> highvoltage, thats the point, ubuntu in education can be any kind of combo of the existing ubuntu products
[18:59] <nubae> me too, I just dont get how they are defined to people,
[19:00] <highvoltage> LaserJock: that should certainly be "edubuntu"
[19:00] <LaserJock> for Intrepid the CD is "Ubuntu Educational Edition 8.10 Educational Addon CD"
[19:00] <benoitstandre> I don't think a mail server, even in education, in considered like "Ubuntu in Education"
[19:00] <LaserJock> which is a real mouthful
[19:00] <highvoltage> ogra: I guess I just have some difficulty getting to terms with the marketing of it
[19:00] <ogra> LaserJock, yeah, thats chaotic
[19:00] <nubae> benoitstandre: talking about the larger concept, its a marketing term, not really technical
[19:00] <LaserJock> so for Jaunty I'd really really love to get this all sorted and clear
[19:01] <ogra> highvoltage, if you want to use ubuntu in education you have all opportunities of the ubuntu world, not only edubuntu
[19:01] <nubae> LaserJock: +1
[19:01] <Lns> Are we actually defining these terms now or just trying to understand them?
[19:01] <LaserJock> so that we don't confuse users, or developers
[19:01] <ogra> you can use kubuntu desktop PCs and a ubuntu server farm
[19:01] <ogra> and install gcompris on them
[19:01] <LaserJock> Lns: mostly trying to understand so we can define
[19:01] <nubae> for support time length its defintely good its ubuntu now
[19:01] <Lns> LaserJock: ok
[19:01] <ogra> thats ubuntu in education
[19:01] <nubae> but really, why cant we just call it ubuntu with the edubuntu add on cd, made by the edubuntu community
[19:02] <ogra> it shoudnt be bound to the edubuntu product
[19:02] <ogra> nubae, right, thats what i say
[19:02] <ogra> edubuntu is only a set
[19:02] <LaserJock> ok, so I would suggest the following:
[19:02] <benoitstandre> could we compare this to UbuntuStudio ?
[19:02] <ogra> ubuntu in education is the full universe of possibilities
[19:02] <LaserJock> 1) the strategy doc should define what Edubuntu *is*
[19:02] <nubae> the ubuntu in education is really the part thats confusing, as seen now by people trying to define it
[19:03]  * ogra cant talk for riched though
[19:03] <LaserJock> 2) we get rid of Ubuntu Educational Edition as it's the worse of all worlds
[19:03] <highvoltage> I'm really with nubae on this one
[19:03] <Lns> So as I see it, there's a bunch of these initiatives and they need to be seen with some sort of commonality, in that Educational use is the goal. I guess ogra, you say that *is* "Ubuntu in Education"
[19:03] <Lns> All of these things together
[19:03] <LaserJock> 3) Work to make sure that there isn't confusion between Ubuntu in Education and Edubuntu
[19:03] <kaingeo> What about this: LSTP Server = Ubuntu Classroom Server, Edubuntu AddOn = Ubuntu Education Collection
[19:03] <ogra> Lns, ubuntu in education is more than edubuntu, edubuntu is a *part* of ubuntu in education
[19:03] <nubae> Lns: right, but we dont need that defined here, its a pure marketing term
[19:03] <highvoltage> in terms of marketing, it really doesn't help having confusing names and descriptions
[19:04] <Lns> ogra: right
[19:04] <stgraber> kaingeo: LTSP isn't part of Edubuntu, it's part of Ubuntu alternate, for a while now.
[19:04] <ogra> highvoltage, dont tell me :)
[19:04]  * Lns agrees with highvoltage 
[19:04] <ogra> highvoltage, but its a topic only rich can actually talk about
[19:04] <nubae> highvoltage: its ok if its not used in the discussion of edubuntu
[19:05] <nubae> which is I suppose why edubuntu isnt mentioned
[19:05] <rockstar> LaserJock, I'm the new guy 'round here, but I'd agree with your process.  That makes it clear what we're even talking about.
[19:05] <kaingeo> stgraber: So LTSP has no marketing name what so ever!
[19:05] <nubae> kaingeo: actually it does
[19:05] <stgraber> kaingeo: IIRC we have a thin client for Ubuntu page on www.ubuntu.com, ogra knows better
[19:05] <nubae> ltsp is ltsp across 6 distros
[19:05] <ogra> kaingeo, http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/technologies/ltsp
[19:05]  * Lns opts for "ltspbuntu" ;)
[19:05] <highvoltage> kaingeo: of course it does! Ubuntu Diskless Edition :)
[19:06] <nubae> highvoltage: lol
[19:06] <LaserJock> well, I consider LTSP to be distinct but integral part of Edubuntu
[19:06] <LaserJock> Edubuntu wouldn't be what it is without LTSP
[19:06] <nubae> as did I
[19:06] <LaserJock> but LTSP is not limited to Edubuntu
[19:06] <nubae> I say did, because the ltsp community migrated to ltsp-disucss
[19:06] <nubae> discuss
[19:06] <nubae> its now dead in the mailing list
[19:07] <Lns> LTSP never *started* with Edubuntu, Edubuntu just harnessed it as a primary focus early on IIRC
[19:07] <nubae> well the lead developer was also the head of edubuntu
[19:07] <LaserJock> well, it's certainly important to separate out "upstream" from what we ship
[19:07] <stgraber> right, Edubuntu is educational softwares on top of Ubuntu. LTSP can be used to make any Ubuntu system a thin client server. So the current way is to install Ubuntu with LTSP, then Edubuntu on top of Ubuntu and you get it on your thin clients.
[19:07] <ogra> Lns, well, ltsp5 did
[19:07] <stgraber> so yes the major market for LTSP is education but it's no longer part of Edubuntu, it's just the major usecase for it
[19:08] <nubae> lead developer = ogra
[19:08] <nubae> :-)
[19:08] <ogra> edubuntu was the testbed for ltsp5 development for some years
[19:08] <highvoltage> I think people are too obsessed with what fits into what. It's not what it should be about. There are different subsets that ultimately form part of one bigger universe. We shouldn't be thinking too much in terms of branding that will limit us from expanding one subset too mch
[19:08] <rockstar> But Edubuntu can exist with or without ltsp
[19:08] <ogra> right
[19:08] <nubae> I think the seperation is good, but we lost the community along with it
[19:08] <LaserJock> right, we need to look at that
[19:08] <Lns> highvoltage: good point. There's always a different approach to looking at these things
[19:08] <ogra> and i'm massively unhappy about the edu tag ltsp has ... it can save you so much if just used in an office
[19:08] <LaserJock> hopefully we just transfered LTPS people to the LTSP community
[19:09] <nubae> how do we get them back, involved in both ltsp and education part
[19:09] <ogra> LaserJock, i think we lost a bunck to k12
[19:09] <ogra> *bunch
[19:09] <nubae> we did
[19:09] <ogra> since we dropped the combined single CD thing
[19:09] <benoitstandre> I think any teacher should consider installing Edubuntu on his Desktop. LTSP should'nt be a limiter to that, and Edubuntu should'nt just interest "server-tech" people
[19:09] <nubae> thats why the sugar integration is so important
[19:09] <Lns> nubae: I don't think that's really the point is it? It should be their choice of which projects to be a part of
[19:09] <LaserJock> right, but it's not inherently because of Edubuntu no longer being upstream LTSP
[19:09] <LaserJock> it's because of decisions we made
[19:09] <LaserJock> and execution
[19:09] <nubae> Lns: yeah, but they should know there IS a edubuntu community
[19:10] <ogra> right
[19:10] <LaserJock> we made Edubuntu hard to use by splitting CDs
[19:10] <LaserJock> we lost our developer community, for various reasons
[19:10] <nubae> LaserJock: yep
[19:10] <ogra> yup
[19:10] <LaserJock> and so Edubuntu wasn't as powerful an educational OS as it was
[19:10] <LaserJock> but there's no inherent reason we can't regain that
[19:10] <nubae> we killed it why it was growing :-)
[19:10] <Lns> nubae: agreed - but I think the relation between LTSP and Edubuntu should be distinguished as two separate entities that *might* work well together, depending on who you are
[19:10] <LaserJock> and that's why I'm here and I hope that's why you all are here too :-)
[19:10] <nubae> Lns: agreed
[19:11] <ogra> s/might/will/
[19:11] <nubae> LaserJock: hear hear
[19:11]  * ogra is here as consultant from the past ... 
[19:11] <ogra> since i dont have much time left to even look at edubuntu
[19:12] <Lns> ogra: you'll always be tied to LTSP and Edubuntu, no matter how hard you try to leave ;)
[19:12] <ogra> if you guys dont keep it alive, it will die
[19:12] <LaserJock> so we need 1) a clear strategy to move forward 2) realistic, bitesize plans 3) execution
[19:12] <ogra> Lns, the day only has 24h in germany
[19:12] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I think you just about summed it up there
[19:12] <benoitstandre> laserjock: +1
[19:12]  * Lns agrees as well
[19:12] <highvoltage> Vote LaserJock!
[19:12] <nubae> righ, ogra right now LaserJock doesnt have upload rights... shouldnt he have them? (hope I have that right)
[19:12] <stgraber> LaserJock: +1
[19:13] <nubae> +12
[19:13] <LaserJock> nubae: I have every right I need ;-)
[19:13] <nubae> oops, +1 even :-)
[19:13] <stgraber> nubae: what do you mean by upload rights ? to where ?
[19:13] <nubae> ah k
[19:13] <ogra> Lns, if my printer wouldnt have gone on strike and costed me the whole day to fix i would right now be on the autobahn, heading towards a mobile conf (which i'll do at 5am tomorrow now)
[19:13] <ogra> stgraber, main
[19:13] <rockstar> It seems that #1 in that list is the roughest part.
[19:13] <highvoltage> I wish we had autobahn :(
[19:13] <Lns> ogra: i suggest going to linuxprinting.org to help fix your printer issue ;)
[19:13] <stgraber> ogra: isn't LaserJock a coredev ?
[19:13] <ogra> stgraber, btw, you need to apply for motu so we get you past that TB thing
[19:14] <highvoltage> ogra: I thought core-devs can upload to main?
[19:14] <LaserJock> it's currently only me with all upload rights
[19:14] <ogra> right
[19:14] <LaserJock> and stgraber with rights to ltsp, etc.
[19:14] <stgraber> ogra: yeah, I'll send a request for MOTU membership and ask you to +1 it :)
[19:14] <ogra> not yet
[19:14] <ogra> stgraber needs to apply for motu first
[19:14] <LaserJock> ogra: I'm taking it as a given ;-)
[19:14] <nubae> ah ok, seems good, now we have people we can nag
[19:14] <stgraber> LaserJock: not yet ... need to be MOTU first, then the TB might approve the limited upload rights
[19:14] <ogra> then we can get restricted main upload rights for ltsp and frineds for him
[19:14] <LaserJock> but we need *more*
[19:15] <ogra> right
[19:15] <LaserJock> I'm perfectly happy to sponsor people
[19:15] <nubae> for what specifically
[19:15] <LaserJock> but I'm not going to run Edubuntu by myself, bottom line
[19:15] <nubae> this still confuses me
[19:15] <ogra> hunting bugs
[19:15] <ogra> fixing packages
[19:15] <LaserJock> I need people looking bugs
[19:15] <nubae> ok, of the addoncd
[19:15] <LaserJock> if we have fixes, merges, syncs, etc.
[19:15] <ogra> getting in new stuff
[19:16] <LaserJock> if people create the packages I can sponsor them
[19:16] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you can call on me if I can do anything, but I'm practically on the point of giving up on my motu journey
[19:16] <nubae> well the inclusion of sugar should bring people on board
[19:16] <LaserJock> sky's the limit there
[19:16] <LaserJock> if people get stuff ready I can push things in
[19:16] <Lns> nubae: is there plan on putting sugar into edubuntu addon ?
[19:16] <ogra> LaserJock, it should be discussed if edubuntu goes universe though
[19:16] <rockstar> I would REALLY like to be involved here, and I can set aside time to work on Edubuntu.
[19:16] <ogra> but thats another point RichEd needs to participate in
[19:17] <nubae> is it multiverse now?
[19:17] <Lns> rockstar: we welcome you and encourage you to find out what you'd like to help with most
[19:17] <ogra> nubae, its main now
[19:17] <nubae> ah ok
[19:17] <ogra> nubae, which means you need MIRs for packages etc
[19:17] <LaserJock> ok, so here's a general point
[19:17] <nubae> gotcha
[19:17] <ogra> so sugar will be painful to get on the CD for example
[19:17] <LaserJock> *anybody* can contribute to Edubuntu
[19:17] <nubae> yeah scratch
[19:17] <nubae> wrong licensing
[19:17] <ogra> no, i'D like to see it ... and more
[19:17] <LaserJock> but if you don't have upload rights (everybody but me and ogra) you need to go through us
[19:18] <nubae> scratch the software
[19:18] <nubae> :-)
[19:18] <ogra> ah
[19:18] <nubae> not take out
[19:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: do you still need to be a motu if you want sponsorship for main?
[19:18] <LaserJock> wait wait
[19:19] <LaserJock> sponsorship is when you don't have rights to upload
[19:19] <LaserJock> so a developer has to upload for you
[19:19]  * Lns welcomes alkisg 
[19:19] <LaserJock> *anybody* can contribute packages
[19:19]  * alkisg says hi to Lns
[19:19] <LaserJock> they will just need the package sponsored, most likely by me
[19:20]  * Lns nominates nubae to work on moodle in edubuntu ;)
[19:20] <LaserJock> so is everybody clear on that part?
[19:20] <Lns> yes
[19:21]  * Lns is, anyway
[19:21] <nubae> heh
[19:21] <LaserJock> basically anybody can do pretty much anything in Edubuntu, it just needs to be sponsored by a developer
[19:21] <nubae> well I've started the sugarlabs one
[19:21] <nubae> so shouldnt be too hard
[19:21] <nubae> there is lots of free moodle stuff out there
[19:22] <nubae> so LaserJock I vote to get moodle installed and linked to edubuntu
[19:22] <LaserJock> moodle is in Edubuntu
[19:22] <nubae> a moodle instance
[19:22] <nubae> not the software to be installable
[19:23] <ogra> apt-cache show edubuntu-server
[19:23] <ogra> it is (currently the only) part of edubuntu-server
[19:23] <LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to put out one last item out I think
[19:23] <LaserJock> [TOPIC]Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui
[19:23] <MootBot> New Topic: Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui
[19:23] <nubae> I mean a link like moodle.edubuntu.org
[19:23] <nubae> with a moodle instance
[19:24] <nubae> not the software on a cd
[19:24] <stgraber> LaserJock: -1
[19:24] <highvoltage> yeah -1 on that topic
[19:24] <nubae> -1
[19:24] <stgraber> LaserJock: we want it to be installable without requiring internet access, that's only possible with the alternate CD
[19:24] <LaserJock> stgraber: we could put it on the Edubuntu CD
[19:24] <stgraber> LaserJock: no
[19:25] <highvoltage> stgraber: would it be too hacky to use something like dpkg-repack on the livecd?
[19:25] <Lns> Why can't LTSP be an option in all Ubuntu installation CDs ?
[19:25] <stgraber> LaserJock: you'd need all ubuntu-desktop and all dependencies on that CD
[19:25] <highvoltage> Lns: technical reasons
[19:25] <Lns> ah
[19:25] <LaserJock> stgraber: ok, so that's a technical requirement
[19:25] <stgraber> highvoltage: yes, not a way I want to go. We'd need to regenerate all packages, add them all to a fake repository and use debootstrap+apt-get on that
[19:25] <stgraber> LaserJock: yes
[19:25] <stgraber> LaserJock: we discussed that over a whole afternoon at UDS-Boston
[19:26] <LaserJock> stgraber: that's what I thought, but somebody put the agenda item up so I thought we should discuss it
[19:26] <stgraber> LaserJock: and the current way is the only non-hacky way to put it on the CD
[19:26] <stgraber> regenerating the packages from an installed system is not something I want to do
[19:26] <highvoltage> yeah, it's certainly not the ideal. just the only way I could think of doing it so far.
[19:26] <LaserJock> I was assuming you'd have to do it via internet
[19:27] <ogra> yes, keep the classroom server setup for ltsp+edu
[19:27] <ogra> no
[19:27] <stgraber> LaserJock: some of our users only have 56K internet access, downloading all ubuntu desktop is not an option
[19:27] <ogra> just the two CDs
[19:27] <highvoltage> or you could have a pre-shipped chroot on the CD, but that would take up a lot of dead space.
[19:27] <LaserJock> highvoltage: for sure
[19:27] <LaserJock> ok, one last CD item and we can close I think
[19:27] <stgraber> highvoltage: remember we don't have any tool to update a chroot yet, so not good as you'd need a new CD for each security update
[19:27] <LaserJock> [TOPIC]Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?
[19:27] <MootBot> New Topic: Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?
[19:28] <nubae> what for?
[19:28] <benoitstandre> livedemo of what ?
[19:28] <LaserJock> I've always liked the idea of having a demo LiveCD that people could use to see what Edubuntu was all about
[19:28] <benoitstandre> à
[19:28] <stgraber> we saw in the past that's it's really difficult to do a LiveCD, LiveDVD perhaps though
[19:28] <LaserJock> the educational apps, etc.
[19:28] <stgraber> we just don't have enough space on a CD
[19:28] <nubae> cant we use the web/moodle for that?
[19:28] <highvoltage> I suppose it would be for kdeedu and gcompris mostly at this stage
[19:29] <benoitstandre> nubae: I think that would be mixing things up. People want to try it "live" for the most.
[19:29] <LaserJock> clearly we can't stick everything on a LiveCD and I don't think we'd want LTSP
[19:29] <nubae> links to docos and howtos are more important
[19:29] <highvoltage> I think in the future when everyone has pink ponies and cars can fly, and edubuntu has it's own installable disc again, it should be on a DVD (or USB flash disk installer by default) and not CD
[19:29] <benoitstandre> I think a live CD of Edubuntu Desktop should be a good thing
[19:29] <nubae> trying it live is installing with apt-get
[19:29] <nubae> not so hard
[19:29] <ogra> LaserJock, the prob is that it would be an ubuntu desktop liveCD with edu apps added
[19:29] <LaserJock> but somehow I feel like we should be able to give people a chance to get a feel for what Edubuntu is without having to get 2 CDs
[19:29] <ogra> thats not gonna fly space wise
[19:30] <ogra> even the desktop CD starts to be crippled already
[19:30] <nubae> instructions on how to download and test, + documentation would be better
[19:30] <LaserJock> ogra: would you think the release team would go for an Edubuntu DVD?
[19:30]  * Lns doesn't like liveCD/DVD anyway..too sluggish for most systems and not a good way to demo
[19:30] <benoitstandre> nubae: trying it live with a teacher that knows nothing about linux is not installing with apt-get :-)
[19:30] <nubae> synaptic
[19:30] <ogra> LaserJock, ask cjwatson or slangasek
[19:30] <highvoltage> I also don't think Ubuntu is going to be able to stick to a CD for too long. If the Ubuntu CD is already getting crippled, how is it going to look like 2-4 releases from now?
[19:30] <ogra> no idea, really
[19:30] <morgs> Just a quick point: The Sugar community is definitely interested in Sugar LiveCDs and LiveUSB images - there are several options already but no real official ones.
[19:31] <LaserJock> ogra: ok
[19:31] <Lns> I think LiveUSB would be the future
[19:31] <slangasek> I'm not sure we have the mirror capacity to host such an image
[19:31] <slangasek> but we could look into it
[19:31] <LaserJock> slangasek: ah, ok
[19:31] <ogra> slangasek, i doubt it would have to be on official mirrors
[19:31] <LaserJock> slangasek: it would be nice to know if it's even feasible
[19:32] <slangasek> if it doesn't have to be on official mirrors, then you don't need to talk to us about it either :)
[19:32] <slangasek> cdimage.ubuntu.com is an "official mirror"
[19:32] <ogra> LaserJock, you woul dhave to reinvent the edubuntu live session and seed
[19:32] <nubae> morgs: whats the result with subuntu?
[19:32] <ogra> not sure how much thats desired
[19:32] <LaserJock> ogra: frankly, not a lot by me, having to deal with all the seeds already :-)
[19:33]  * stgraber thinks about adding two more DVD testcases to the tracker ..... bad ... testing Ubuntu is already hard
[19:33] <ogra> right
[19:33] <morgs> nubae: that's one person's livecd at this point, so unofficial
[19:33] <LaserJock> but I just wanted to throw the idea out there in any case
[19:33] <highvoltage> stgraber: that's a very good point
[19:33] <LaserJock> for me personally as I look at Edubuntu
[19:33] <nubae> will sugar be included in ltsp
[19:33] <LaserJock> I'd like to sort of shrink-and-focus
[19:33] <ogra> you could use ubuntu-umpc as a base, the mobile team has easy scripts to add/remove packages from the base image
[19:33] <nubae> that ws one of my questions which is not related to this
[19:33] <ogra> that could give you an usb live image
[19:34] <LaserJock> I'd like us to pick some reasonable targets and do them well
[19:34] <stgraber> LaserJock: yeah, I thought we made it clear that we can't put the effort to manage a whole distro, so let's not try to create one, even if it's only for a LiveCD :)
[19:34] <LaserJock> then expand
[19:34] <LaserJock> rather than trying to do everything all at once and doing a poor job of it
[19:34] <ogra> ++
[19:34] <ogra> focus on the addon CD and its app set
[19:34] <Lns> For exposure of Edubuntu/other Ubuntu/LTSP to people who want to try it, do we really have to focus on liveCD/DVD/etc as the only way to promote it though? Look at YouTube, for instance. Think of how many people could get exposed to a demo session by someone who already knows what they're doing if we just got a screenrecorder and put together a really nice demo video of Edubuntu.
[19:35] <LaserJock> ah good point
[19:35] <nubae> Lns: agreed
[19:35] <LaserJock> we really could use a good YouTube campaign
[19:35] <kaingeo_> many schools have internet connections, i think is fare that can install an LTSP server with a simple package
[19:35] <LaserJock> :-)
[19:35] <highvoltage> *nod*
[19:35]  * Lns opts to be part of the YT campaign
[19:35] <nubae> kaingeo_: they can
[19:35] <LaserJock> coming off of the US elections
[19:35] <morgs> Yes We Can!
[19:35] <Lns> I'm already looking to make videos promoting LTSP and related
[19:35] <ogra> Lns, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdvJIGQCVi0
[19:35] <LaserJock> we need a good grass-roots and internet based campaign
[19:35] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I strategically didn't say anything about that :)
[19:36] <ogra> thats a ten part series about edubuntu
[19:36] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I know, I know
[19:36] <ogra> pretty awesome
[19:36] <Lns> LaserJock: yep..we need to hit it from all corners
[19:36] <benoitstandre> basic question is: who do we want to convince with a liveCD-USB-Whatever ?
[19:36] <Lns> ogra: wow..see, look at what we have already!
[19:36] <ogra> its there snce ages, but nobody picked up and promoted it
[19:36] <Lns> benoitstandre: I think that most people that we're currently trying to target might not understand the concept of a Live CD/DVD anyway
[19:36] <LaserJock> the people I personally want to target are teachers
[19:37] <LaserJock> and as Lns points out, Live disks are maybe not the most effective way to reach them
[19:37] <benoitstandre> not sure about that
[19:37] <stgraber> web campaign sounds a good idea
[19:37] <nubae> teachers need a moodle location to grab lesson plans/courses from
[19:37] <ogra> LaserJock, tae ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
[19:37] <LaserJock> so +1 for EduTube ;-)
[19:37] <benoitstandre> people need to "touch" it
[19:37] <benoitstandre> if they don't have the chance to test it without installing it
[19:37] <LaserJock> ogra: ok, good idea
[19:37] <Lns> benoitstandre: Not saying a LiveCD/DVD *shouldn't* be used, but it's only one way of demoing
[19:37] <ogra> LaserJock, just put up a reciepe how to do it if people want to demo it ;)
[19:38] <ogra> LaserJock, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
[19:38] <kaingeo_> nubae: i think that is the future. Ubuntu became big because is user friently
[19:38] <ogra> something like that
[19:38] <LaserJock> [IDEA] take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
[19:38] <MootBot> IDEA received:  take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
[19:38] <LaserJock> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
[19:38] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
[19:38] <LaserJock> ok, let's close up shop
[19:38] <benoitstandre> maybe resources are too low for a live cd, but, I don't think it's just because it's not a right way to show to people
[19:38] <stgraber> sounds better, it's just a howto, so nothing to maintain or to test
[19:39] <LaserJock> I've got writing to do ;-)
[19:39] <ogra> LaserJock, also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[19:39] <LaserJock> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[19:39] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[19:39] <LaserJock> ok, anything else before we stop for today?
[19:39] <LaserJock> I've had a lot of fun
[19:39] <LaserJock> and I hope you all did too
[19:39] <nubae> install moodle
[19:39] <Lns> too short! i'm still ready to talk ;)
[19:40] <nubae> :-)
[19:40] <highvoltage> LaserJock: Hope we can believe in
[19:40] <LaserJock> 1 thing
[19:40] <LaserJock> let's really try to use the edubuntu-devel list
[19:40] <benoitstandre> laserjock
[19:40] <highvoltage> Lns: #edubuntu will be listening!
[19:40] <LaserJock> we can keep a lot of these creative juices flowing *and* get more people involved than just the IRC discussions
[19:40] <highvoltage> LaserJock: agreed on that too. a lot of discussion fades away on IRC
[19:40] <benoitstandre> laserjock: just subscribed to it :-)
[19:41] <Lns> LaserJock: quick question - can Edubuntu Desktop run alongside a "normal" ubuntu installation?
[19:41] <Lns> say, with edubuntu-menus etc?
[19:41] <LaserJock> benoitstandre: thanks for that, really
[19:41] <nubae> as a seperate session?
[19:41] <LaserJock> Lns: depends on what you mean by "alongside"
[19:41] <ogra> no
[19:41] <Lns> LaserJock: example:
[19:41] <LaserJock> I mean, Edubuntu is on top of ubuntu-desktop
[19:41] <ogra> its a thing that goes on top of ubuntu-desktop
[19:41] <LaserJock> so you can't exactly separate them
[19:41] <Lns> K through 12 school - have K through 3 on edubuntu desktops and everyone else on ubuntu dekstops
[19:41] <Lns> ok
[19:42] <Lns> maybe that could be something we could look into
[19:42] <LaserJock> Lns: no, what i would prefer is to have Edubuntu gain that capability
[19:42] <nubae> u cant create sessions like that?
[19:42] <highvoltage> that sounds more like profile-based menus/sessions. LaserJock did do some work on that before.
[19:42] <LaserJock> I started some of that with the group-driven menuing
[19:42] <Lns> highvoltage: yes
[19:42] <LaserJock> but we could really really enhance that a lot more
[19:42] <LaserJock> we could also do sabayon profiles
[19:42] <Lns> In my experience, the younger kids LOVE edubuntu themes, but anyone over say 10 thinks it's "too childish"
[19:42] <nubae> LaserJock: thats very interesting, lots of people have asked me about that too
[19:42] <Lns> so it'd be great to have the flexibility to choose via group membership, etc
[19:43] <ogra> nubae, look at edubuntu-menus
[19:43] <LaserJock> perhaps whole user profiles, etc.
[19:43] <LaserJock> *but* we need people to do the work, bottom line
[19:43] <Lns> LaserJock: yeah, user profiles would be great
[19:43] <nubae> not just that, different users of different classes need different menus
[19:43] <ogra> thats what its for
[19:43] <nubae> cool
[19:43] <LaserJock> so we need not only great ideas, but great work!
[19:43] <nubae> Ill look
[19:43] <Lns> LaserJock: agreed
[19:43] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I had a customer ask me for sessions/menus based on ldap groups. I could give you my hacky scripts if it would help
[19:43] <ogra> it doesnt have any gui yet
[19:43] <LaserJock> so talk to educators around you
[19:43] <LaserJock> talk to developers
[19:44] <Lns> We need real gconf integration i think to make it work well
[19:44] <LaserJock> see what educators need and convince developers to give some time to the cause
[19:44] <LaserJock> :-)
[19:44] <LaserJock> if everybody gets a couple people involved we'd take off like a rocket
[19:45] <Lns> I can only imagine the possibilities with true profile management under ubuntu..not just edubuntu
[19:45] <LaserJock> with that
[19:45] <LaserJock> #endmeeting
[19:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:45.
[19:45]  * Lns applauds
[19:46] <highvoltage> enjoy the autobahn ogra
[19:46] <LaserJock> we should be scheduling another meeting sometime in the future here
[19:46] <LaserJock> once we get up and running it should be a weekly or bi-weekly thing
[19:46] <ogra> highvoltage, nothing i enjoy at 5am
[19:46] <highvoltage> like in the old days?
[19:46] <LaserJock> for now, lets hit the edubuntu-devel list and generate some discussions
[19:46] <LaserJock> highvoltage: yep
[19:46] <nubae> cool
[19:47] <ogra> would probably be good t establish something like the council again as well
[19:47] <Lns> Can someone post the full meeting to edubuntu-devel ? Maybe that'll get some threads going
[19:47] <nubae> so Im still a little unclear... can we go ahead and simplify the download process and explanation of edubuntu on the site?
[19:47] <LaserJock> ogra: agreed
[19:47] <ogra> there are some pending people that would like to become edubuntu members
[19:47] <ogra> but i wont hav etime to attend every meeting
[19:47] <LaserJock> Lns: I'm gonna, email it, blog it, etc.
[19:47] <Lns> LaserJock: cool
[19:48] <LaserJock> nubae: yeah, lets talk about that in #edubuntu
[19:48] <nubae> ok
[19:49] <benoitstandre> thanks eveyrone, see you around
[19:49] <nubae> yup.. ditto