[00:01] <Ahmuck> stgraber: or sbalneav is working on local apps
[00:01] <Ahmuck> i get them mixed up
[16:24] <LaserJock> morgs: ping
[16:34] <Nubae> hey there LaserJock
[16:34] <Nubae> when u spoke about moodle, did u mean moving moodle to main?
[16:35] <LaserJock> moodle is already in Main
[16:35] <LaserJock> we ship moodle already
[16:35] <Nubae> ok... then what was the moodle mention in the email to the list about? :D
[16:36] <LaserJock> getting it updated
[16:36] <LaserJock> moodle was orphaned in Debian for a while
[16:36] <Nubae> ah k, its not super old, but in the web world, stuff moves fast
[16:37] <LaserJock> it's now got a new maintainer and lots of security fixes
[16:37] <LaserJock> if you look at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/edubuntu.html#outdatedandlocalinB
[16:37] <LaserJock> you see that the Ubuntu moodle version is  1.8.2-1.2ubuntu2
[16:37] <Nubae> oh its 1.8.1... hmmm. thought it was 1.9.1
[16:38] <Nubae> Im running 1.9.3+
[16:38] <Nubae> but from sources
[16:38] <LaserJock> which means the debian revision is 1.2
[16:38] <LaserJock> Debian now has 2.0.5.0-1-4
[16:38] <Nubae> there is also a dev version (2.0 branch) with portfolio integratio
[16:38] <Nubae> thats still dev
[16:38] <Nubae> 1.9.3+ is latest stable
[16:39] <LaserJock> hang on
[16:39] <LaserJock> I grabbed qcad's version ;-)
[16:39] <LaserJock> Debian has 1.8.2-2
[16:39] <Nubae> hehe
[16:39] <Nubae> so basically whats not in ubuntu
[16:39] <LaserJock> moodle also has 7 open bugs in Ubuntu
[16:40] <Nubae> for 1.8.2 I guess
[16:40] <Nubae> upgrading wouldnt fix that... its a trivial package to make... I mean, upstream already has .debs
[16:40] <LaserJock> in the email I sent I pasted in the changelog entry
[16:41] <Nubae> s/woudlnt/would
[16:41] <LaserJock> I count something like 16 Debian bugs that got closed in that -2 version
[16:41] <LaserJock> a few are just Debian internal bugs, a couple probably we've already fixed
[16:42] <LaserJock> but there's a lot of changes in there
[16:42] <Nubae> 1.8 is ancient though
[16:43] <LaserJock> there's also the fact that our patch to Debian is 29K
[16:43] <LaserJock> so we have to go through all of that and see what needs to be kept or not
[16:43] <LaserJock> it's not so much about the upstream version
[16:43] <LaserJock> it's about what we do with that version
[16:44] <LaserJock> if that makes sense
[16:45] <Nubae> yeah package related stuff I guess
[16:45] <LaserJock> if we had somebody who could maintain moodle we could maybe look at jumping to a newer upstream release
[16:45] <LaserJock> but right now it's just "try to minimize the bugs and keep up with Debian"
[16:46] <Nubae> I'd offer too, but MOTU is out of my grasp...
[16:46] <LaserJock> you don't have to be a MOTU really
[16:46] <LaserJock> you just need to put time into it
[16:46] <LaserJock> which is always the issue :-)
[16:47] <Nubae> well moodle is something I use and deploy a hell of a lot
[16:47] <Nubae> it actually helps if there were a newer version in the repos for me... instead of installing from source in every location
[16:47] <LaserJock> I think I would put it into 3 steps
[16:48] <LaserJock> 1) try some easy merges 2) tackle a moodle merge 3) look at updating the moodle version, talking with Debian
[16:49] <LaserJock> the tricky bit with moodle is the debconf and database setup
[16:50] <Nubae> moodle merge being a bug fix for example?
[16:50] <Nubae> like.. recommend php5-ldap :D
[16:52] <Nubae> so if one works on updating moodle... should one do it debian side, or is ubuntu side fine? or are they even the same thing....
[16:54] <LaserJock> they're not the same
[16:54] <LaserJock> and it's better to do it in Debian if possible
[16:54] <LaserJock> but sometimes Debian has it's reasons
[16:55] <LaserJock> there are some apps where Ubuntu usually leads, Gnome for instance
[16:55] <LaserJock> but generally we try to let Debian lead as we have lots of infrastructure for doing that and we benefit from their work
[16:56] <LaserJock> regarding a merge
[16:56] <LaserJock> a merge is simply taking a new Debian version and applying the same Ubuntu changes that we had in the previous version
[16:57] <Nubae> aha
[16:57] <LaserJock> so here would be the moodle history
[16:57] <LaserJock> Debian uploads 1.8.2-1.2
[16:57] <LaserJock> Ubuntu uploads 1.8.2-1.2ubuntu1
[16:57] <LaserJock> the ubuntu1 is to show that we've modified it
[16:58] <Nubae> right 0 unmodified
[16:58] <LaserJock> Ubuntu uploads 1.8.2-1.2ubuntu2 security update I think
[16:58] <LaserJock> Debian uploads 1.8.2-2
[16:58] <LaserJock> now Ubuntu needs to upload 1.8.2-2ubuntu1 with the relevant changes from 1.8.2-1.2ubuntu1 and 1.8.2-1.2ubuntu2
[16:59] <LaserJock> we need to see what changes can be dropped because Debian has included them
[16:59] <Nubae> ok
[16:59] <LaserJock> we need to see what changes Debian has made that may affect what we've already done
[16:59] <LaserJock> for instance I see that Debian has changed some of the dependencies
[17:01] <LaserJock> once you've done all that and tested it all
[17:01] <LaserJock> you get me to upload your package
[17:01] <Nubae> allright I've saved this conversation and I'll give it a shot, can I email u if something is unclear?
[17:02] <LaserJock> sure!
[17:02] <LaserJock> I would suggest you maybe try a different package for your first one
[17:02] <LaserJock> unless you really have some patience :-)
[17:03] <LaserJock> we've made quite a few changes to moodle
[17:03] <Nubae> well, there isnt much point in choosing a pacakge I wont benefit from
[17:03] <Nubae> this, I benefit directly from, so its in my interest
[17:03] <Nubae> maybe I'll try mahara
[17:04] <Nubae> if there is a change from debian
[17:04] <LaserJock> I think it's up-to-date
[17:05] <LaserJock> the point would be that you are learning how to merge :-)
[17:05] <LaserJock> which helps you get moodle in tip-top shape
[17:05] <Nubae> yeah, its direct from debian...
[17:05] <Nubae> mahara that is
[17:08] <LaserJock> attack moodle if you want, I just don't want you to get bogged down and frustrated
[17:08] <LaserJock> one of the first merges I ever did was pretty rough, but I did learn quite a bit
[17:27] <Nubae> LaserJock: can I do a test merge with just a couple changes somehow?
[17:29] <LaserJock> Nubae: you mean for moodle?
[17:30] <Nubae> yeah#
[17:30] <LaserJock> what I'd do is first grab the new Debian package
[17:30] <LaserJock> get your package building setup and testing setup going
[17:30] <LaserJock> have you use pbuilder before?
[17:31] <morgs> LaserJock: pong
[17:31] <LaserJock> morgs: one sec
[17:32] <Nubae> yeah
[17:33] <LaserJock> Nubae: get a jaunty pbuilder setup
[17:33] <LaserJock> Nubae: and maybe a Jaunty VM or chroot
[17:33] <LaserJock> morgs: regarding the package tracker thingy :-)
[17:33] <morgs> LaserJock: yeah :)
[17:34] <LaserJock> morgs: the easiest thing to do would be to add the Sugar packages to Edubuntu's
[17:34] <morgs> LaserJock: ah :)
[17:34] <LaserJock> but perhaps you want more control over it?
[17:34] <morgs> How do we do that?
[17:34] <LaserJock> the list of packages come from the packages that the ~edubuntu-bugs Launchpad team is subscribed too
[17:35] <LaserJock> so if we're going to be looking at Sugar we'll probably want to do that anyway I'd guess
[17:35] <morgs> LaserJock: OK, we can take it a step at a time.
[17:36] <LaserJock> I count something like 20 Sugar packages, is that right?
[17:38] <morgs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam/Packages
[17:38] <morgs> 24 on that page but we dropped a couple of them from the archive for intrepid due to deps not satisfied
[17:39] <LaserJock> it seems sort of odd to have so many source packages
[17:40] <morgs> LaserJock: the activities make up a lot of them - in many cases they are unrelated upstream projects maintained by different people
[17:41] <LaserJock> yeah
[17:41] <Nubae> is abiword fixed yet (excuse me for the aside :D
[17:41] <Nubae> ?
[17:41] <LaserJock> what's wrong with it?
[17:42] <Nubae> in sugar
[17:42] <morgs> Nubae: for sugar Write? No
[17:42] <morgs> LaserJock: it's packaged as abiword without a separate libabiword
[17:42] <morgs> we need that for python-abiword which is as yet not in Ubuntu
[17:42] <morgs> that is needed for Sugar's Write activity which is one of the core ones
[17:42] <LaserJock> ah
[17:43] <morgs> Ultimately people should be able to install the activities in their home directories, and they should Just Work, but we don't have all the system dependencies in yet like this abiword thing, and Read also needs a patched evince which isn't upstream yet
[17:43] <morgs> Those two got dropped from intrepid for this reason (they didn't work in hardy either)
[17:43] <morgs> so packaging these activities does help to make sure the platform is complete
[17:44] <Nubae> will the activites come through gui packager with description, name and icon and the like?
[17:45] <Nubae> ie, user will be able to choose activities from add/remove apps
[17:45] <Nubae> seems like a nice expansion of the Education menu
[17:46] <LaserJock> I think RichEd was thinking of maybe doing more with that for Jaunty
[17:46] <morgs> I haven't actually seen the edubuntu menu, but it sounds good - Sugar with no activities is a bit pointless, and we don't necessarily want to install them all
[17:49] <LaserJock> morgs: well, which do you think would be better, adding Sugar to the Edubuntu list or creating a separate Sugar-specific list?
[17:50] <LaserJock> I don't want to overload the UbuntuWire guys with a bunch of lists, but if it makes more sense then we should ask them
[17:50] <morgs> LaserJock: Now that I know how it works, perhaps we should wait a while and see how we do with Edubuntu + Sugar...
[17:51]  * morgs -> LoCoCouncil meeting
[17:52] <Nubae> from a community stance, it makes sense to keep them together
[17:52] <Nubae> sugar is eductational in its nature
[17:52] <morgs> yeah
[17:52] <Nubae> and if we seperate it... what would edubuntu be then?
[17:53] <morgs> We might want some separate directions, like Sugar LiveCDs are in demand - although that could be a non-official side project
[17:53] <Nubae> a specific blend of education known only to certain users :p
[17:53] <morgs> but it makes complete sense to work together
[17:53] <morgs> We totally want Sugar to be included with edubuntu
[17:53] <Nubae> how about integration of the new usb live stick thingie
[17:53] <Nubae> to make a sugar stick
[17:54] <LaserJock> well, it's certainly not about making Sugar locked-in to Edubuntu or anything
[17:54] <LaserJock> but it sort of makes sense to pool resources as we have common interests
[17:55] <morgs> yeah, like squeak - I somehow didn't even notice that was already packaged :)
[17:55] <LaserJock> we've had squeak since forever
[17:55] <LaserJock> like Dapper at least
[17:55] <LaserJock> which is part of the problem
[17:55] <LaserJock> Debian just included it during Hardy
[17:55] <LaserJock> and they have completely different packaging
[17:55] <LaserJock> and use SVN snapshots
[17:56] <Nubae> heh... squeak is a sore subject with devs it seems... you'd think people were arguing about abortion rights
[17:56] <LaserJock> it's not so much a sore subject
[17:56] <LaserJock> just a tricky one
[17:57] <LaserJock> and I haven't had the greatest help from upstream on it either
[17:57] <morgs> LaserJock: you probably didn't see it, but since the edubuntu meeting we've had something just short of a flame war on the Sugar lists about squeak
[17:57] <LaserJock> ah, good
[17:57] <morgs> with upstream defending the way it is distributed with the vm snapshots
[17:57] <Nubae> yeah there was just a real acusatory email to the maintainers
[17:57] <morgs> and debian complaining that everyone forgets we get our stuff from them
[17:57] <LaserJock> OLPC was *very* lose about the licensing
[17:57] <Nubae> pushing for them to do it the distro way
[17:58] <morgs> The licensing seems all fixed now, but it's the fact that it doesn't build from source that is the current issue
[17:58] <Nubae> yeah, we mentioned ubuntu too often, lol
[17:58] <LaserJock> squeak until quite recently (and possibly still so) was *not* free
[17:58] <Nubae> its definitely free now...
[17:58] <LaserJock> we'll see
[17:58] <Nubae> just packaged as vms
[17:59] <LaserJock> I don't know that Debian's packages are even free, but perhaps they've gotten improved
[17:59] <LaserJock> the problem is that the Squeak VM author likes to claim licenses regardless of whether the files are actually licensed that way or not
[17:59] <Nubae> hehe
[18:00] <morgs> There are different squeaks from different places. squeakland.org is the one that etoys uses, and that's the one that claims to have a free license.
[18:00] <LaserJock> well, that's sort of a different issue
[18:00] <LaserJock> the main issue is the squeak VM
[18:00] <LaserJock> which is the only thing Debian ships (we have squeak images as well)
[18:01] <LaserJock> the VM source had *3* different license files, all different and incompatible
[18:01] <LaserJock> and the source also had many files that were *not* free yet he claimed they were
[18:02] <LaserJock> there was also patent-encumbered code
[18:02] <LaserJock> so slapping a MIT license on things that are *not* MIT is rather annoying for those of us trying to distribute the packages
[18:03] <morgs> LaserJock: ah, I think the mp3 code's been removed from the olpc version for a while now
[18:03] <morgs> but it could do with some investigation...
[18:03] <LaserJock> it's not a huge deal, but it needs to be dealt with
[18:05] <LaserJock> but I'll have to admit I did get a bit tired of fighting for something I don't even use
[18:05] <morgs> yeah... well, the discussion is probably moving to debian so we can let them fight a bit and see what happens...
[18:06] <LaserJock> debian's better at that
[18:06] <LaserJock> but it's really a messy situation
[18:06] <LaserJock> stemming from years of non-free but open source development
[18:07] <LaserJock> Ubuntu's original packages were done by ogra based on Linex (spanish distro) packages
[18:07] <LaserJock> I then got it so that the packages were based on the squeak.org "official" debian packages done by Lex Spoon and others
[18:08] <LaserJock> and *now* Debian does completely separate packages which may make it impossible for us to automatically sync
[18:09] <LaserJock> so that's a lesson on why it's good to make sure  you use free open-source licenses :-)
[18:11] <LaserJock> morgs: I'm very grateful to OLPC/Sugar because I think they put a lot of pressure on Squeak
[18:12] <morgs> yeah
[18:12] <morgs> I think the squeak.org images are still non-free in license whereas the squeakland.org ones have been fixed...
[18:13] <LaserJock> Squeak is a bit hard in that there are so many images and "custom" VMs that seem to float around
[18:13] <LaserJock> makes it difficult for the packagers
[18:14] <morgs> yeah, and scratch, also based on squeak, just got relicensed from MIT to "non-commercial"
[18:15] <LaserJock> what?
[18:22] <LaserJock> morgs: are watch files used in your sugar packages?
[18:23] <morgs> LaserJock: I'm so new to packaging I'll have to look that up :)
[18:26] <LaserJock> morgs: np, they're just a file you can drop in debian/ that allows you to check for new upstream releases
[18:27] <morgs> LaserJock: I think not
[18:27] <LaserJock> morgs: if you were to combine watch files and the Debian/Ubuntu version list you'd have most of the info on your wiki page
[18:27] <morgs> LaserJock: oh, actually, there are watch files
[18:28] <morgs> LaserJock: yeah, some of it is redundant as we had packages from different people in different places and I wanted to see what we had
[18:30] <LaserJock> you know, it would be somewhat interesting to hack up a little webapp that would pull watch file output, Debian, Ubuntu, ppa output and then have a spot for comments
[18:51] <LaserJock> morgs, Nubae: I just read the sugar threads on Edubuntu/Ubuntu
[18:52] <LaserJock> it seems to me that there may be some smallish misunderstanding going on
[18:52] <morgs> I don't know if the parties actually want to agree...
[18:53] <LaserJock> 1) currently packages must be in Main for Edubuntu to ship them
[18:53] <LaserJock> 2) it will probably take some time to do that for all of Sugar so we can work on Squeak as well at the same time and see if it gets there
[18:53] <morgs> yes - although we don't necessarily have to ship squeak/etoys to ship "Sugar" so it's not a blocker
[18:54] <morgs> yes
[18:54] <LaserJock> 3) we don't have to have packages necessarily shipped to be within "Edubuntu" we've long talked about putting together useful Universe metapackages
[18:56] <LaserJock> I think it'd be good to figure out what exactly Sugar needs
[18:56] <LaserJock> what images, VM versions, etc.
[18:56] <LaserJock> and just shoot for those
[18:57] <LaserJock> if it just needs like the newer etoys version and that works with the squeak-vm SVN snapshot that Debian has then I think we have a good chance of getting that into Universe
[18:58] <Nubae> oh cool, I was under the impression that if sources werent shipped too it couldnt get in there
[18:58] <LaserJock> no, you need the sources
[18:59] <LaserJock> but the question of whether etoys ships the source or not may be easier to figure out in Ubuntu than Debian
[18:59] <LaserJock> the argument has been that the source is included, just not in a form that most programmers outside of Squeak would be familiar with, right?
[19:01] <Nubae> I'm not sure on that point... could be, someone has to test it... an official buntu person...
[19:02]  * LaserJock thought that's what he was
[19:02] <LaserJock> ;-)
[19:03] <LaserJock> I had some discussions with Martin Pitt about it
[19:03]  * Nubae too
[19:03] <Nubae> was thinking of Laserjock to do that
[19:03] <LaserJock> well, frankly I don't want to touch Squeak
[19:04] <LaserJock> I've got so many many things to do and I feel like I just waste my time with Squeak
[19:04] <Nubae> maybe morgs...
[19:05] <LaserJock> if somebody wants to step up and drive it I'm fine with giving advice, etc.
[19:05] <LaserJock> but i spent around 2-3 weeks for Hardy trying to get all this stuff resolved
[19:05] <LaserJock> and it didn't seem especially fruitful
[19:06] <LaserJock> it seems like things have changed upstream a fair amount since then
[19:06] <morgs> I'll take a look but getting the rest of Sugar in good shape is a higher priority for me
[19:06] <LaserJock> but since I don't use squeak or Sugar presently I'm just not a good person to have driving this stuff :-)
[19:06] <LaserJock> morgs: I think that's a very good idea
[19:06] <Nubae> morgs is it the case that some other activties still need to be packaged?
[19:07] <LaserJock> I think squeak will end up having to iron itself out upstream and in Debian
[19:07] <Nubae> is there alist of priorities sugar activties to go first?
[19:07] <morgs> Nubae: there are loads of activities that we could package, but I'd like to see which ones we can handle by downloading the .xo in the Browse activity
[19:07] <Nubae> thats fine on a single user system
[19:07] <morgs> Nubae: it's more getting the platform dependencies right so that anything which works on the OLPC XO will work on Sugar on ubuntu
[19:08] <Nubae> but not so much on LTSP
[19:08] <morgs> Nubae: ah right
[19:08] <morgs> Well, for many of them, packaging is quite trivial
[19:08] <morgs> Debian haven't been interested in packaging more activities, but they can pick up our efforts
[19:08] <morgs> I'm planning to put a bunch of activities into the PPA
[19:08] <Nubae> thats what I thought, might be a good way to start doing something in taht area
[19:09] <LaserJock> it's too bad you can't have like a "Honey" tarball that was periodically released
[19:09] <morgs> Many of the activities are plain Python so easy to package
[19:10] <morgs> LaserJock: hmm, that's not a bad idea... the Fedora packagers are keen on tarballs, but there's no way to get arbitrary activity maintainers to do tarball releases since the bar is so low to publish a .xo
[19:10] <LaserJock> morgs: I just wonder if the Sugar devs could like just periodically put together a tarball
[19:11] <LaserJock> tracking so many independent upstreams is time consuming
[19:11] <morgs> LaserJock: possibly. I'll raise that with the Fedora packagers, as they seem to have a similar issue
[19:12] <morgs> so we might end up with three layers: activity developer -> sugar tarball maintainer -> distro packager
[19:12] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:15] <LaserJock> dtrask_away: hello hello
[21:18]  * dtrask is away: Gone away for now.