[01:59] <Aron_1> rockstar: ping...
[02:09] <AMDpenguin> How do i delete my account
[02:10] <stgraber> https://edge.launchpad.net/~stgraber/+deactivate-account
[02:11] <stgraber> hmm, https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+deactivate-account
[02:11] <stgraber> to have an url that'd work for everyone :)
[02:13] <AMDpenguin> I said linux sucks foir the reason =)
[02:16] <AMDpenguin> I said Linux sucks for the reason why i deactivated my account because it does
[02:18] <wgrant> That's very thoughtful and pleasant of you.
[02:29] <AMDpenguin> Yeah
[02:33] <AMDpenguin> I am going to do a tombstone piledriver to my linux box
[02:39] <AMDpenguin> I am going to do a tombstone piledriver to my linux box
[03:01] <barry> #/join launchpad-meeting
[03:16] <Aron_> rockstar: ping ....
[03:16] <rockstar> Aron_, hi.
[03:16] <AMDpenguin> I am going to do a tombstone piledriver to my linux box
[03:16] <Aron_> rockstar: please check your email
[03:17] <rockstar> AMDpenguin, please stop spamming the channel.
[03:17] <lifeless> AMDpenguin: you've repeated yourself quite a few times. If you want to talk about ubuntu, I suggest #ubuntu; if you need help with launchpad, we'd be delighted to help you here.
[03:18] <Aron_> rockstar: see my private message window
[03:19] <wgrant> If you want support with Ubuntu, #ubuntu is the place. If you want to complain about Ubuntu, /dev/null is the place.
[03:20] <Aron_> ...
[03:20] <Aron_> wgrant: so interesting...
[03:20] <lifeless> wgrant: thats not really true; all feedback is useful - but #ubuntu is definitely the place for people to start
[03:21] <Aron_> rockstar: see it?
[03:21] <wgrant> lifeless: #ubuntu has enough traffic as it is; we don't want threats about people destroying their machines in there too.
[03:21] <lifeless> wgrant: if someone is feeling frustrated with their machine, they need someone to seek help
[03:21] <lifeless> wgrant: shutting them off means we don't find out about the issues
[03:22] <lifeless> wgrant: regardless; none of this is ontopic here.
[03:22] <wgrant> That is of course true.
[03:22] <rockstar> Aron_, I don't see an email from you, but I do know what you're looking for.
[04:16] <wgrant> cprov: Excellent! Jaunty PPAs will be most useful soon.
[04:17] <cprov> wgrant: yup
[04:18] <wgrant> cprov: Do you know if there's a bug on the misleadingness of showing 'frozen' as a distroseries status on +ppas?
[04:18] <wgrant> A few people were confused by that this time, and it's irrelevant for PPAs.
[04:18] <cprov> wgrant: for jaunty ?
[04:18] <wgrant> cprov: Yes.
[04:19] <wgrant> And Intrepid, near the end.
[04:19] <cprov> wgrant: it was indeed frozen, what was the issue ?
[04:19] <wgrant> cprov: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas shows the distroseries status, and people were getting confused as to why Intrepid PPAs would be frozen.
[04:19] <wgrant> Or Jaunty PPAs.
[04:21] <cprov> wgrant: ISWYM, well, the status refer to the ubuntu distroseries and it's supposed to help users to choose which PPAs the want to search for.
[04:21] <cprov> wgrant: any idea for making it clearer ?
[04:21] <wgrant> cprov: Yep, it is useful, but showing 'frozen' isn't.
[04:21] <wgrant> I don't know, sorry.
[04:22] <cprov> wgrant: ehe, fine it will think about it. Maybe beuno will have an idea.
[04:22] <wgrant> Night.
[04:22] <cprov-zzz> talk to you tomorrow, good night.
[06:56] <gnomefreak> i thought PPAs were supporting Jaunty. my uploads are not showing in build records or my PPA page
[06:58] <wgrant> gnomefreak: Have you waited at least 5 minutes?
[06:59] <gnomefreak> wgrant: about that but i will wait some more if needed
[06:59] <gnomefreak> Tue Nov 11 01:53:06 2008 EST  its not 1:59
[07:00] <gnomefreak> s/not/now
[07:00] <gnomefreak> the repo drop down doesnt show jaunty either
[07:00] <wgrant> That's because you have no Jaunty packages accepted.
[07:01] <wgrant> "#  qt4-qtruby 1.4.10-1 in jaunty in PPA for Dan Colish  30 seconds ago "
[07:01] <wgrant> So Jaunty PPAs are working.
[07:01] <wgrant> But your upload was buggy.
[07:01] <gnomefreak> how was it buggy? it says it had no issues
[07:01] <gnomefreak> firegpg_0.6.2-0ubuntu1~jjv_source.changes: done.
[07:01] <gnomefreak> Successfully uploaded packages.
[07:01] <gnomefreak> Not running dinstall.
[07:01] <wgrant> dput doesn't do much checking.
[07:02] <wgrant> You're sure you uploaded to the right place and haven't received a rejection email?
[07:03] <gnomefreak> Uploading to ppa-gnomefreak (via ftp to ppa.launchpad.net):
[07:03] <gnomefreak> i will check email now
[07:05] <gnomefreak> its telling me that the version i have uploaded already cant be used in new upload. the one now is intrepid in PPA i uypdated changelog to jaunty and they wont lert it in because version #s are same
[07:05] <gnomefreak> i think thats a bug in LP/PPA
[07:05] <wgrant> No.
[07:06] <wgrant> That's how Debian archives have worked for years.
[07:06] <wgrant> You need to change the version.
[07:06] <wgrant> Or copy it from Intrepid.
[07:06] <gnomefreak> k ill change version and dee what happens
[07:07] <gnomefreak> s/dee/see
[07:07] <wgrant> Checking for emails of rejection is generally a good idea if things don't show up...
[07:22] <gnomefreak> uploading new versions ill check in morning its already 2:20 am
[07:22] <wgrant> Night.
[07:22] <wgrant> I normally refrain from using my OpenPGP key after 1am.
[07:23] <gnomefreak> :)
[10:00] <Hobbsee> kiko-afk: what are 'lpnet oopses'?
[10:01] <Hobbsee> The first two were ones I got from edge
[10:03] <Hobbsee> Ursinha: thanks
[10:05] <wgrant> Hobbsee: He probably assumed, like I did initially, that the links you provided were the same as the non-links.
[10:06] <wgrant> But the non-links were for edge, while the links were for prod/lpnet/whateveritisnow
[10:06] <Hobbsee> wgrant: ah, right.  They weren't - it was just that ubottu found some links for some, but not the original ones
[10:18]  * wgrant is mildly amused at the last sentence of bug #6597.
[10:18] <bigjools> heh
[10:23] <Hobbsee> ah yes, it's still timing out
[10:23] <Hobbsee> Error ID: OOPS-1046EB71
[10:24]  * Hobbsee adds to the bug.
[10:24] <bigjools> thanks
[10:24] <bigjools> that page is the bane of my life
[10:25] <bigjools> Hobbsee: is it timing out *every* time?
[10:26] <Hobbsee> bigjools: 2/2 so far.  OOPS-1046EB72
[10:26] <bigjools> Hobbsee: can you try lpnet instead of edge
[10:26]  * Hobbsee tries a few more times
[10:26] <bigjools> and you're accepting a new upload I presume?
[10:26] <wgrant> OOPS-<day><instance><server><sequence number>?
[10:26] <Hobbsee> unapproved
[10:26] <bigjools> k
[10:27] <Hobbsee> oh, *damn*.
[10:27] <Hobbsee> Someone just accepted the two packages I could have taken.
[10:27] <Hobbsee> (I was using 1 to test)
[10:28] <wgrant> Hobbsee: I'm sure NCommander will consent to running some more backports for you :P
[10:28] <Hobbsee> wgrant: was just thinking that...I'm sure that I can convince someone to do some more crackports.
[10:28] <NCommander> wait, what?
[10:28] <NCommander> what did I break now?
[10:29] <wgrant> NCommander: You didn't. Yet.
[10:29] <Hobbsee> NCommander: nothing.  I just want something that's a decent backport, so I can try accepting it.
[10:29] <NCommander> Hobbsee, you can accept things?
[10:29] <Hobbsee> NCommander: ...yes
[10:29] <NCommander> Hobbsee, do you need a source level backport, or an automatic backport?
[10:29] <wgrant> Uploaded backports, yes...
[10:30] <NCommander> that answers that
[10:30] <Hobbsee> NCommander: source backport, please.
[10:30] <NCommander> Let me find something
[10:30] <Hobbsee> cool, thanks
[10:30] <NCommander> I did most of the soul ones
[10:30] <NCommander> Hobbsee, why do you want to accept something now?
[10:31] <Hobbsee> NCommander: because i'm hitting a launchpad bug, and bigjools wants to know if it happens on lp.net.  However, I can't use the backport I was testing with before, as someone else has gone and accepted it
[10:31] <NCommander> I don't have any outstanding source backports I can upload
[10:31] <NCommander> (source backports require two acks)
[10:31] <NCommander> But I can do what would normally be an automatic one by hand
[10:31] <Hobbsee> retroactive acks from jdong?  :P
[10:32] <Hobbsee> oh yes, that'd work
[10:32] <NCommander> Ok
[10:32] <NCommander> let me find a good candiate
[10:34] <NCommander> Hobbsee, ok, I got a candidate
[10:34] <NCommander> Its a library with no rdepends, so if something breaks, nothing actually gets damaged
[10:35]  * Hobbsee mutters something about crackports
[10:36] <Hobbsee> so why does someone want that backproted,then?
[10:36]  * NCommander shrugs
[10:36] <NCommander> I don't ask why in cases like this
[10:41] <NCommander> Hobbsee, crackport uploading
[10:41] <NCommander> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/hardy-backports/+bug/260325
[10:41] <NCommander> so what's this bug?
[10:42] <Hobbsee> NCommander: can't accept from the queues.  Timeout.
[10:43]  * NCommander waits for the accept email
[10:43] <bigjools> Hobbsee: I have your oops in front of me
[10:43] <bigjools> accepting kde4libs?
[10:43] <Hobbsee> bigjools: yes
[10:44] <NCommander> Still no accept email
[10:45] <Hobbsee> NCommander: it's in the queue, so....
[10:45] <Hobbsee> NCommander: thanks
[10:45] <NCommander> I should have gotten an ACK email
[10:45] <NCommander> even if its unaccepted
[10:47] <Hobbsee> bigjools: should I try accepting another one, or should I wait?
[10:47] <bigjools> Hobbsee: I have the data I need, so don't wait on my account
[10:48] <Hobbsee> bigjools: hmmm....okay.  That one works
[10:48] <bigjools> Hobbsee: it seems kde4libs in particular is a PITA
[10:49] <Hobbsee> bigjools: i know the other one started with a K, but i didn't think it was kde4libs (the one on the weekend), if that helps.
[10:49] <Hobbsee> launchpad just hates KDE?  :P
[10:49] <bigjools> Hobbsee: I think that one was kde4libs as well
[10:49] <Hobbsee> oh
[10:49] <Hobbsee> fair enough :)
[10:49] <bigjools> Hobbsee: just KDE4 I think, 4.1.2 still sucks :)
[10:50] <Hobbsee> bigjools: hah.  You'd better not say that with KDE people in here..
[10:50] <bigjools> Hobbsee: I am one of them
[10:50] <Hobbsee> bigjools: you do kde stuff, or you run it?
[10:50] <bigjools> I use it
[10:51] <Hobbsee> oh.  I meant those who do development / packaging of the stuff :)
[10:51] <bigjools> loads of regressions from 3.5 frustrate me
[10:51] <Laibsch> Hi.  Can I easily add hardy-backports to the packages available in my PPA for compile-time deps?
[10:51] <NCommander> Laibsch, no :-/
[10:51] <NCommander> Not unless there has been progress in this respect
[10:52] <Hobbsee> bigjools: that's one of the reasons i stopped running it, too :)
[10:52] <bigjools> Hobbsee: still on hardy then?
[10:52] <Hobbsee> bigjools: nah.  I run gnome, and have done so since gutsy.
[10:52] <bigjools> ah
[10:52] <Hobbsee> I still see edgy kubuntu every once in a while, and am reminded.
[10:56] <wgrant> bigjools: Since the archive dependencies are no longer hardcoded, are we going to see a pocket-enabling UI soon?
[10:56] <bigjools> wgrant: -ish, yes
[10:57] <wgrant> Excellent.
[10:58] <wgrant> Then all that's needed to make PPAs very useful is multiple PPAs per user.
[10:58] <bigjools> wgrant: that will happen later next quarter
[10:58] <wgrant> bigjools: Ooh. Excellent.
[10:59] <bigjools> I am also toying with the idea of allowing upload rights set outside of the owning team
[10:59] <wgrant> I fail to see how there can be a smooth migration path, unless people have primary PPAs, just to add to the primary/PPA confusion.
[10:59] <wgrant> That would be good.
[10:59] <wgrant> Lots of projects do really strange things now.
[10:59] <bigjools> wgrant: yes, the migration will be a pain
[11:00] <wgrant> bigjools: Do you have a solution?
[11:00] <bigjools> wgrant: we have some ideas, no firm solution yet
[11:00] <wgrant> bigjools: Ideas are better than nothing, at least.
[11:01] <wgrant> Anyway, it's good to see it's back on the cards and scheduled.
[11:01] <bigjools> it will hurt somewhere I expect
[11:01] <kirkland> i created a team, "ecryptfs-devel" in launchpad;  you guys created a mailing list (thanks!);  now I'm trying to direct a community member to join that mailing list ...  it's not obvious how to do this from https://edge.launchpad.net/~ecryptfs-devel
[11:01] <kirkland> help?
[11:02] <wgrant> kirkland: Only team members can join lists, for some horrible (and probably not particularly good) reason./
[11:02] <wgrant> Given that anybody can see the archives, at least read-only subscriptions should surely be possible by anyone.
[11:03] <awilkins> kiko-afk: PIng?
[11:03] <kirkland> wgrant: hrm, that's annoying ... ecryptfs-devel has commit access, as the "driver" of our project
[11:03] <kirkland> wgrant: okay, i may need to create yet another team then :-/
[11:03] <wgrant> kirkland: Yes... Launchpad ensures that each project needs like a dozen teams.
[11:03] <wgrant> One for the PPA for devel, one for the PPA for stable.
[11:03] <wgrant> One for the users mailing list.
[11:03] <wgrant> One for the people who should have access to the branch as well as PQM.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for the developers.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for the developers mailing list.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for driving.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for release management for each series.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for bugs.
[11:04] <wgrant> One for security.
[11:05] <bigjools> this is getting addressed in a sprint currently taking place in the US
[11:06] <wgrant> bigjools: Which bit? The huge number of teams?
[11:06] <bigjools> better roles
[11:06] <wgrant> Thank goodness.
[11:06] <wgrant> This has been a problem forever.
[11:06]  * wgrant wishes the sprinters luck.
[11:08] <mrevell> awilkins: Is there anythign I can help with while kiko-afk's not here
[11:09] <NCommander> Hobbsee, you didn't properly mark the bug Fix Released!
[11:10] <Hobbsee> NCommander: don't we have launchpad-auto-closes-changelogs for that?
[11:10] <wgrant> Hobbsee: Not for "Automated backports upload; no source changes"
[11:10] <NCommander> Not for backports
[11:10] <wgrant> Oh.
[11:10] <wgrant> And that, too.
[11:10] <NCommander> wgrant, not in general.
[11:10] <wgrant> Because we use a horrible LP workaround for backports...
[11:10] <Hobbsee> wgrant: oh, i thought he'd had to modify it, so it landed in that queue.
[11:10] <wgrant> DistroSeries bugtasks need a pocket selector.
[11:11] <NCommander> wgrant, sorta funny, the ubuntu (libgee) bug got changed :-)
[11:11] <Hobbsee> ah, right, i see
[11:11] <NCommander> so it works
[11:11] <wgrant> Hobbsee: Yes, by adding the changelog entry.
[11:11] <NCommander> Just not in the hardy-backports project
[11:11] <wgrant> The *-backports projects are awful hacks.
[11:11] <NCommander> That's true
[11:11] <wgrant> You can't expect Soyuz to respect them.
[11:12] <NCommander> And Soyuz can't expect me to respect it :-) *smacked*
[11:12] <Hobbsee> wgrant: my bad.
[11:12]  * Hobbsee wasn't thinking.
[11:13]  * wgrant sends Hobbsee to the +queue corner.
[11:13] <awilkins> mrevell: I was wondering if he got some email from me or whether he was just ignoring me :-)  Was hoping to start a more active dialogue on the possibility of getting my hands on the Launchpad sources under NDA.
[11:13] <awilkins> mrevell: I understand that he's probably tucked up in bed at this hour.
[11:13]  * Hobbsee breaks it, then breaks wgrant
[11:14]  * Hobbsee sends wgrant to her isys lectures.
[11:14] <mrevell> awilkins: Ah, right. He won't be ignoring you :) I think he lives under a permanent mountain of email. He is the right guy to speak to, though, about that sort of thing.
[11:14] <wgrant> Hobbsee: Now that's just harsh.
[11:14] <awilkins> mrevell: It was rather a long email, maybe it got spamcanned :-)
[11:15] <awilkins> mrevell: lifeless waskind enough to provide an intro
[11:15] <mrevell> cool
[11:15] <mrevell> awilkins Feel free to send me a copy if you're concerned your mail may have been lost in the system
[11:17] <awilkins> mrevell: That's most gracious of you sir.
[11:18] <mrevell> np :)
[11:18] <bigjools> Hobbsee: do you have any more packages you can accept or is that it?  Did you get kde4libs to work?
[11:33] <Hobbsee> wgrant: *grin*
[11:34] <Hobbsee> bigjools: I don't at the moment.  Someone else got kde4libsto work
[11:34] <bigjools> Hobbsee: ok thanks
[12:02] <kiko-afk> I sort of am here though.
[12:04]  * wgrant ties kiko-afk to his keyboard.
[12:05]  * Hobbsee solders the keyboard to the machine.
[12:05] <wgrant> Ah, good point.
[12:05] <Hobbsee> wgrant: no point tying someone to an unpluggable object.
[12:44] <Ursinha> Hi Hobbsee
[12:45] <Hobbsee> hey Ursinha
[13:21] <savvas> er.. how do I include orig.tar.gz to be uploaded in my PPA with dput?
[13:21] <savvas> I add it in the changes file?
[13:23] <Hobbsee> use debuild / dpkg-buildpackage with -sa
[13:23] <savvas> ah -sa.. I was using -sd :P
[13:23] <Hobbsee> that'll do it
[13:35] <savvas> Hobbsee: thanks, you were right :)
[13:35] <Hobbsee> savvas: :)
[13:35] <savvas> (as always heh)
[13:36] <Hobbsee> not quite always, unfortunately :)
[13:37] <savvas> tisk tisk, modest :p
[13:38] <savvas> hm.. it's kind of big package for a ppa, I hope launchpad won't mind
[13:38] <savvas> 59mb, the secret maryo chronicles (1.6 release)
[13:43] <Hobbsee> it probably won't
[13:43] <Hobbsee> but i hope you have a decent uplink, so dput/tool_of_choice doesn't fall over
[14:02] <savvas> Hobbsee: I kind of wish the same thing - it's 128k, but it is somewhat stable (surely hope so!)
[14:58] <RainCT> Hi
[14:59] <RainCT> I've got a FTBFS for a jaunty upload to my PPA with "FATAL: kernel too old" during the dependency installation. Is this a known problem?
[15:10] <mrevel> cprov: Can you answer RainCT?
[15:10] <cprov> mrevel: no, I'm sorry.
[15:12] <bigjools> RainCT: is this a build failure or an upload failure?
[15:13] <RainCT> bigjools: build
[15:13] <RainCT> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19567192/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-amd64.sim_0.9.5~svn20080806-1ubuntu1_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
[15:15] <bigjools> mmm that's not good
[15:17] <bigjools> RainCT: can you file a bug please
[15:18] <soren> Yikes.
[15:19] <soren> That looks like something that would affect all Jaunty PPA builds. :(
[15:19] <bigjools> soren: or just amd64
[15:19] <soren> bigjools: point
[15:19] <soren> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19567193/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-i386.sim_0.9.5~svn20080806-1ubuntu1_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
[15:19] <soren> Except not.
[15:19] <soren> :(
[15:19] <bigjools> bleh
[15:20] <bigjools> looks like glibc is fuxored
[15:20]  * soren eyeballs the Xen kernel on the PPA's...
[15:22]  * cody-somerville stabs Xen.
[15:23]  * soren joins the stabfest
[15:47] <RainCT> bigjools: Sorry, missed your answer. Sure I can. Are PPAs part of Soyuz or against what should I file the bug?
[15:52] <bigjools> RainCT: file all bugs against "Launchpad" please, they get triaged and put in the right place
[15:56] <RainCT> bigjools: OK, thanks
[15:58] <RainCT> done, bug #296829
[15:59] <bigjools> thanks RainCT
[15:59] <bigjools> soren: do you think that's a Xen problem then?
[16:00] <soren> bigjools: Indirectly.
[19:31] <Laibsch> Hi, why is https://launchpad.net/~r0lf/+archive/+build/726653 failing?  As far as I can see liblpsolve55-dev is available in a recent enough version from my PPA.
[19:35] <rockstar> Laibsch, it looks like it's also trying to find lp-solve
[19:37] <rockstar> Laibsch, and it's also looking for a different version of liblpsolve, one without the rofl1 at the end.
[19:38] <Laibsch> >= 5.5.0.10-10 should be satisfied
[20:48] <gour> evening
[20:49] <jo_> hello! I went to http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk/files/3830, clicked on 'bzrlib' and got that 'Please try again' page. Reloaded like the error page told me. And posted here...
[20:49] <gour> is there any hope for https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-bazaar/+bug/44455 ?
[20:49] <jo_> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk/files/3830?file_id=bzrlib-20050309040749-4ac9a0e211602846
[20:52] <jo_> is launchpad restricted to ubuntu?
[21:06] <spm> jo_: hmmm- am seeing the same thing, chasing
[21:08] <intellectronica> jo_: absolutely not. it's free for any free software project, and can be used by proprietary projects for a fee
[21:10] <spm> jo_: try now; just restarted that service
[21:12] <jo_> intellectronica: has it support for debian? eg the sourlces.list entries display on the webpage does not seem to support debian dists
[21:12] <jo_> spm: cool.
[21:13] <intellectronica> jo_: you mean PPAs? no, they only build for ubuntu (of course, in many cases you'll be able to use the resulting packages in debian anyway)
[21:16]  * wgrant looks suspiciously at intellectronica.
[21:16] <wgrant> We're not necessarily compatible.
[21:16] <wgrant> Not a good idea to recommend it.
[21:17] <Ursinha> wgrant, guess he's not recommending it, just saying one truth
[21:18] <intellectronica> i did not say necessarily. i said "in many cases", and put it in parenthesis. thinking about it again, though, i should have been more careful
[21:18] <Ursinha> :)
[21:18] <intellectronica> i'd go further and say that i'd recommend switching to ubuntu and solving the problem that way :D
[21:18] <Ursinha> hahaha
[21:19] <jo_> haha
[21:19] <jo_> just switched back to debian ;)
[21:19] <intellectronica> jo_: really? how come (just out of curiosity)
[21:20] <jo_> btw: is the launchpad web application available to use on an own server?
[21:20] <intellectronica> jo_: no, it's a hosted service
[21:21] <jo_> intellectronica: hm, just consuetude...
[21:22] <jo_> i see a project page on https://launchpad.net/launchpad but no code
[21:22] <wgrant> I suppose, now that lpnet is importing sid and lenny, it wouldn't be too hard to have Debian PPAs.
[21:22] <intellectronica> fair enough
[21:22] <intellectronica> jo_: launchpad is not (yet) open source
[21:23] <wgrant> Do we have a roadmap for that yet?
[21:23] <intellectronica> wgrant: a roadmap for what?
[21:23] <jo_> for Debian PPAs hopefully ;)
[21:23] <wgrant> intellectronica: The open sourcing.
[21:24] <jo_> even better
[21:24] <wgrant> We have a badly publicised upper bound, but nothing else.
[21:24] <jo_> in which language is it written?
[21:24] <wgrant> Python.
[21:24] <intellectronica> wgrant: i don't think there's a public roadmap yet, but things are happening all the time to advance this. for example, did you notice that we moved our wiki from our internal server to dev.launchpad.net?
[21:25] <wgrant> intellectronica: I knew that was being done, but didn't know it had been.
[21:25] <wgrant> You guys *really* need to publicise things better.
[21:27] <wgrant> intellectronica: There doesn't seem to much anything useful there yet.
[21:28] <intellectronica> wgrant: but it's a start. be patient, and you're in for a string of very pleasant surprises over the next few months :)
[21:28] <wgrant> Right, it's certainly a promising start.
[21:29] <jo_> jup.
[21:30] <jo_> guess the world needs software project management tools
[21:31] <jo_> (I am the world)
[21:56] <rockstar> wgrant, we're taking large steps to get LP open sourced.  We have a public wiki now, and are migrating data to there from our internal one.
[21:57] <rockstar> jo_, Much of the value add in Launchpad comes from it being a central source for many projects.  Installing it on your own server is not recommended.
[22:01] <wgrant> rockstar: I hope a launchpad-launchpad plugin (similar to {bugzilla,trac}-launchpad) will be written before the code is released, or things aren't going to end well.
[22:01] <rockstar> wgrant, why won't the end well?
[22:02] <wgrant> There will be other LP instances set up. You can be pretty much sure of that.
[22:02] <wgrant> There needs to be some way to communicate between them, or the point of LP is lost.
[22:03] <rockstar> wgrant, maybe.
[22:04] <rockstar> I think parts of a full LP instance will be set up, but running your own LP instance would require a lot of infrastructure methinks.
[22:04] <wgrant> A lot of people just want the bugtracker.
[22:05] <wgrant> Once you exclude soyuz, things must get much simpler.
[22:05] <rockstar> And what's wrong with the bugtracker on Launchpad.  Why don't they want to use it here.
[22:05] <wgrant> rockstar: Because people see Canonical as another big evil corporation.
[22:05] <wgrant> That feeling will probably dissipate somewhat once it's free, but not entirely.
[22:07] <rockstar> wgrant, refelect on that for a second.  Canonical is a big evil corporation that produces software that these people WANT to use?
[22:07] <rockstar> s/refelect/reflect
[22:08] <rockstar> I think people will be doing themselves a disservice by setting up their own Launchpad instance.
[22:08] <wgrant> rockstar: Canonical is a big evil corporation that produces software that these people can review and run independently from a big evil corporation.
[22:08] <wgrant> Oh, they will be.
[22:11] <LarstiQ> rockstar: that doesn't stop people from thinking that way I'm afraid.
[22:11]  * LarstiQ does encounter it.
[22:11] <rockstar> LarstiQ, thinking what?
[22:12] <LarstiQ> rockstar: that Canonical is evil and/but running Launchpad themselves would be fine.
[22:12] <wgrant> LarstiQ: Exactly.
[22:12] <wgrant> I'm not in that camp, but lots of people are.
[22:12] <rockstar> LarstiQ, those people are not our users.  We care about our users.
[22:12] <wgrant> rockstar: You don't have users.
[22:12] <wgrant> Not many, anyway.
[22:13] <elmo> wgrant: pardon?
[22:13] <LarstiQ> rockstar: mja, I wouldn't be too sure of that.
[22:14] <wgrant> elmo: Compared to things like SourceForge, and generally within the Free software world, LP has very few projects using it.
[22:14] <elmo> wgrant: users != projects
[22:14] <wgrant> Oh, and I would like to see stats about how many LP accounts have ever actually been used on LP, and not just for ShipIt.
[22:15] <rockstar> wgrant, I don't have users?
[22:15] <elmo> wgrant: also, I'd think you'd be surprised how many projects useLP
[22:15] <elmo> I know I was
[22:15] <LarstiQ> elmo: silent majority?
[22:15] <rockstar> LarstiQ, yes, for the most part.
[22:16] <elmo> also, if you get to discount shipit users, I get to discount the quagmire of a million unmaintained, unused, dead projects on SF :-P
[22:16]  * LarstiQ knows one question he gets as a bzr person is 'so, do any (significant) projects actually use bzr?'
[22:16] <wgrant> elmo: Good point on the dead projectss.
[22:16] <rockstar> elmo, I have at least three sourceforge accounts.  :)
[22:16] <wgrant> LarstiQ: That's another big one, yes.
[22:16] <elmo> LarstiQ: you have an answer for that now :)
[22:16] <elmo> of course the next questions "ok, who else" :(
[22:17] <LarstiQ> elmo: yeah :/
[22:17] <wgrant> Is there a way to see which projects on Launchpad are actually real and not fakes produced by Ubuntu devs?
[22:17] <LarstiQ> and then when I mention Launchpad that also doesn't count as an external project, sigh
[22:17] <rockstar> wgrant, we try, for the most part, to keep project space clean.
[22:17] <wgrant> LarstiQ: Launchpad isn't a project. It's a big black box without a freaking changelog.
[22:17] <LarstiQ> wgrant: do you mean registered by other people to keep track of things? I do that too and am not involved with Ubuntu.
[22:18] <wgrant> rockstar: There are still lots of fakes. They're simply placeholders for us to stick bugwatches on.
[22:18] <LarstiQ> wgrant: if you're evaluating if a large codebase is workable with bzr, that doesn't matter. Nor need things be free software.
[22:19] <wgrant> LarstiQ: True.
[22:19] <wgrant> But this reminds me - why doesn't Launchpad have a changelog visible any more? There used to be one sent out at releases.
[22:19] <wgrant> Years ago...
[22:19] <wgrant> Now we just have to guess at when things might be fixed.
[22:20] <elmo> huh?
[22:20] <intellectronica> wgrant: launchpad is a bug tracker. anything that gets fixed has a bug that goes into Fix Released
[22:20] <elmo> wgrant: doesn't mrevell send those out still?
[22:20] <wgrant> elmo: No..
[22:20] <wgrant> elmo: We get a few big features that are irrelevant to distros.
[22:20] <wgrant> elmo: The early 2006 changelogs were excellent.
[22:21] <wgrant> Not everything is covered by milestoned bugs. The milestone lists have a very low signal:noise ratio, as things inevitably don't get finished. The bug summaries aren't always great.
[22:22] <wgrant> They're not a replacement for a changelog.
[22:22] <intellectronica> wgrant: we stopped with the changelogs because we felt that they are of little value to users, considering that the bugs that are being fixed are out there for you to look at, and anything really earth shattering is being announced anyway
[22:22] <LarstiQ> hmm
[22:22] <LarstiQ> I did enjoy reading them.
[22:22] <rockstar> LarstiQ, you are probably a minority.
[22:22] <LarstiQ> rockstar: as always :P
[22:22] <intellectronica> wgrant: but if you think that they are useful please raise the subject. i don't think there's any serious objection to them, other than that they are more noise than most people are interested in
[23:00] <gmb> I don't see any reason why we couldn't publish a changelog separately from the release announcement.
[23:00]  * gmb catches up a zillion years after the conversation ended.
[23:01]  * LarstiQ grins
[23:01] <wgrant> gmb: That would work.
[23:02] <LarstiQ> gmb: as someone who is known to carry out multi-day latency conversations with replies being on different irc channels, I think you're still on time ;)
[23:03] <wgrant> Dropping changelogs because of a perceived lack of interest after you didn't ask for expressions of interest isn't entirely rational.
[23:04] <LarstiQ> wgrant: as for me, I admit to not following LP as closely as I did, so there might have been a request for feedback I missed.
[23:04] <wgrant> LarstiQ: I never saw one.
[23:05] <wgrant> And I don't think I'd miss something like that.
[23:08] <intellectronica> wgrant: as i said, go ahead and raise this on launchpad-users. i'm certain that if there's enough interest the changelogs can and will make a comeback
[23:09] <wgrant> intellectronica: OK, wasn't sure where to raise it. I'll send an email after my exam in a couple of hours.
[23:10] <intellectronica> wgrant: great. and good luck with your exam
[23:10] <wgrant> Thanks.