| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Mobile | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | ||
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| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Mobile Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | ||
| davidm | #startmeeting | 12:02 |
|---|---|---|
| MootBot | Meeting started at 06:02. The chair is davidm. | 12:02 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 12:02 |
| davidm | StevenK, persia lool ogra everyone here? | 12:03 |
| * persia waves | 12:03 | |
| * ogra wiggles his hand in the air | 12:04 | |
| * StevenK shores | 12:04 | |
| * persia is broken, and retreats | 12:05 | |
| davidm | Ha | 12:05 |
| lool | hry | 12:05 |
| davidm | OK were are all here and accounted for :-) | 12:06 |
| davidm | Well sort of anyway, I'm on my first cup of coffee | 12:06 |
| davidm | hi amitk | 12:06 |
| amitk | hi davidm | 12:06 |
| StevenK | Okay, so we have persia, me, ogra, amitk and about 1/3rd of davidm | 12:07 |
| lool | ... | 12:07 |
| * persia completely failed to actually edit the agenda before the meeting, but wants to talk about using a desktop manager | 12:07 | |
| davidm | There ya go | 12:07 |
| StevenK | Oh, sorry, lool. :-( | 12:07 |
| StevenK | I missed you in my haste to make a joke | 12:08 |
| davidm | OK we did not have a meeting last week as most were gone holiday, meetings or something eles | 12:08 |
| davidm | The agenda page is pretty empty today. | 12:08 |
| jcarp | Greetings, is this the correct meeting for Ubuntu Mobile? | 12:09 |
| persia | jcarp, It is. | 12:09 |
| amitk | StevenK: 1/3rd of me too. The other 2/3rds is foraging for food | 12:09 |
| davidm | So does anyone have anything status wise that is notable? At this point we really have inports for the most part | 12:09 |
| StevenK | Haha | 12:09 |
| ogra | imports, merges, spec writing ... | 12:09 |
| ogra | the usual post release - pre UDS stuff ... | 12:10 |
| * lool was on VAC and will be away next week as well | 12:10 | |
| lool | StevenK: I'm happy to take some merges from you as I don't think I have any remaining; if you have some GNOME-ish stuff in particular | 12:11 |
| StevenK | I've been on VAC for Monday and Tuesday, and working on non-public things for the past two days. | 12:11 |
| StevenK | lool: I suspect most of my merges will go away. | 12:11 |
| ogra | where will they go then ? | 12:12 |
| * ogra is in philosophical mood .... | 12:12 | |
| StevenK | lool: I just need to look at them | 12:12 |
| ogra | wow ... i wish mine were so easy | 12:12 |
| ogra | but moode ist that easily scared ... i guess i have to touch it (kees asked me to merge it) | 12:13 |
| ogra | *moodle | 12:13 |
| davidm | Then we have merges under control. | 12:14 |
| davidm | Lets talk about UDS then quickly, do we have all spec's in place for UDS? amitk do you have any input for UDS for us? | 12:15 |
| * ogra hasnt set up the blueprints yet ... will do that on the weekend | 12:15 | |
| lool | I think people have been thinking about specs, or discussions, but we need to make blueprints out of them | 12:15 |
| amitk | davidm: i'd like to know what devices we should support out-of-the-box and what is broken in them | 12:15 |
| ogra | blueprints and at least empty wikipages | 12:16 |
| StevenK | I need to sort out specs | 12:16 |
| lool | amitk: For now, I think we should revisit the jax10 and Q1U with jaunty and sum up what we miss | 12:16 |
| * persia should write some specs as well | 12:16 | |
| amitk | davidm: eeePC, samsung Q1, jax10 | 12:16 |
| amitk | etc. | 12:16 |
| * persia hopes the D4 can make that list | 12:16 | |
| amitk | lool: ack | 12:17 |
| ogra | yes, we should look at eee | 12:17 |
| ogra | but we dont have HW in the team afaik | 12:17 |
| lool | At least the jax10 needs quite some work, not all trivial | 12:17 |
| davidm | That is a good question we should have some review of that at UDS, with an eye to what can really be supported. | 12:17 |
| ian_brasil | gps would be nice too | 12:17 |
| lool | I had in mind that we could have some wiki page per device with the main status for some support | 12:17 |
| persia | Perhaps a session "Bring your MID or UMPC for review"? | 12:17 |
| lool | e.g. bluetooth: works, wifi: restricted etc. | 12:18 |
| lool | ogra: You mean for the d4? | 12:18 |
| persia | cgregan had started something like that. I'll see if I can find it, and move it to the right place. | 12:18 |
| davidm | persia, thanks | 12:18 |
| amitk | lool: I did such a page for a laptop-enabling here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmitKucheria/LaptopEnablingOnHardy | 12:18 |
| lool | Since I'm subscribed to umpcportal, I saw a bunch of jax10 devices come out | 12:18 |
| ogra | lool, for eeePC | 12:19 |
| lool | amitk: Cool; also, I wonder whether we should also provision some hardware support db | 12:19 |
| lool | ogra: Indeed | 12:19 |
| ogra | lool, they are differing massively between the models :/ | 12:19 |
| davidm | OK who is going to run with this for a spec and blueprint? | 12:19 |
| StevenK | persia: I like it! | 12:19 |
| lool | Hmm I'd like to understand better how this would work as a spec or blueprint | 12:20 |
| davidm | I like the original question, what devices are we supporting out-of-the-box | 12:21 |
| davidm | so we can come away with a target for JJ | 12:21 |
| ogra | yeah | 12:21 |
| persia | Well, it make sense as a session, and we can review what works and doesn't for each candidate HW, and then decide what needs fixing. | 12:21 |
| amitk | davidm: and a list of bugs to fix | 12:22 |
| persia | The blueprint/spec probably has to be written post-session. | 12:22 |
| persia | amitk, We can file the bugs in the session :) | 12:22 |
| ogra | the "Mobile BYO HW session" ? | 12:22 |
| lool | So, if I take that into a session description: "Discussion on hardware support status for misc devices"? | 12:22 |
| davidm | lool, that seems to make sense to me | 12:23 |
| lool | Or is this about allocating time to support some devices, or about ways in which we should track hardware support status? | 12:23 |
| persia | Probably worth adding a note somewhere that people should bring hardware. | 12:23 |
| StevenK | It isn't so much a spec, though | 12:23 |
| lool | Ok; hardware support status/testing hackfest session so to speak | 12:23 |
| StevenK | It's more a roundtable | 12:23 |
| * persia thinks it's about understanding what isn't supported so sensible allocation of resources can be made for makeing more work | 12:23 | |
| amitk | lool: "misc" devices? I would like a list of "first-class" devices | 12:23 |
| persia | amitk, "first-class" would be the most popular of those brought to the session, no? | 12:23 |
| lool | amitk: I think your question lead to proposing a session for a similar question | 12:24 |
| amitk | persia: no. you have obscure devices that are not available in most other parts of the world :-p | 12:24 |
| lool | amitk: In the end, we need to decide which devices we focus our efforts on | 12:24 |
| persia | amitk, Well, that probably means I don't get "first-class" then (as much as I wish it were otherwise) | 12:24 |
| amitk | I am suggesting picking 3-4 of the most popular devices out there and supporting them | 12:24 |
| davidm | [action] davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable." | 12:24 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable." | 12:24 |
| lool | Constrained with availability of the devices and time | 12:24 |
| davidm | OK I think we can work with this off-line to develop the topic | 12:25 |
| davidm | persia, you had a topic you wanted to cover? | 12:25 |
| persia | Yes. | 12:26 |
| persia | I want to switch MID to use a desktop manager for the session, rather than /etc/event.d/session | 12:26 |
| ogra | he wants to hire a desktop manager :) | 12:26 |
| persia | Initial fiddling about with xdm is promising, but I wondered if others felt we ought use gdm or something. | 12:26 |
| lool | persia: a desktop or display manager? | 12:26 |
| ogra | how well/bad supported is xdm ? | 12:26 |
| persia | Maybe "display manager". I'm not sure. | 12:27 |
| ogra | the latter :) | 12:27 |
| ogra | i dont think xdm gets much attention anywhere | 12:27 |
| ogra | not even upstream | 12:27 |
| persia | ogra, It's in universe, but comes from the X sources, and is part of the ubuntu-desktop task. | 12:27 |
| ogra | but gdm is becoming a bad beast | 12:27 |
| ogra | the new gdm will run its own user session, fire up NM and GPM | 12:28 |
| persia | gdm just seems a little heavy for -mid, and I'm not sure if I can customise the session in a way that doesn't break anything else. | 12:28 |
| ogra | and GSS | 12:28 |
| ogra | in that state it wont be suitable for MID at all | 12:28 |
| davidm | persia, for the record, why do would we want to switch from /etc/event.d/session to a desktop manager? | 12:28 |
| davidm | Your thoughts behind this? | 12:28 |
| davidm | So other folks looking in can understand | 12:28 |
| lool | persia: I think Colin mentionned a lightweight display manager used for some project; it's really a dummy one | 12:29 |
| lool | persia: But more importantly, I'm fine with the idea but would like to document the rationale behind it | 12:29 |
| persia | davidm, Several benefits: it allows usernames other than "ubuntu", it allows several users, it allows use of oem-setup, it reduces race conditions, and it helps reduce the number of "touching this crashed X" bugs. | 12:29 |
| ogra | its not hard to write a display manager either | 12:29 |
| ogra | i wrote the first iteration of ldm over a weekend for ltsp | 12:30 |
| lool | I disagree with the first reason, find the second one not so important and think we should fix the fourth reason | 12:30 |
| ogra | the thing is that we want the functionallity, not necessarily the display manager itself | 12:30 |
| persia | lool, something like slim? | 12:30 |
| lool | Could be | 12:30 |
| lool | I can tell that it would allow switching between environments/sessions | 12:30 |
| persia | lool, OK. First reason is that it's a simple way to implement it :) There are other ways. | 12:31 |
| lool | And it would setup CK more elegantly | 12:31 |
| lool | I'm not too motivated with the multi-user use case, but I don't mind | 12:31 |
| StevenK | Personally, I would prefer it. | 12:32 |
| StevenK | It would save us a bunch of headaches | 12:32 |
| * ogra wonders if slim or any other lightweight DM would actually help with any of that | 12:32 | |
| ogra | (CK, PK etc i mean) | 12:32 |
| ogra | i doubt they actually follow that concept closely | 12:33 |
| ogra | it would mean much hackery on our side if they dont | 12:33 |
| lool | ogra: I think the DM I discussed with Colin was actually a proposal to fix CK support, but I might not recall exactly the motivation | 12:33 |
| persia | ogra, So you're suggesting writing a new one rather than extending one of those to do that? | 12:33 |
| ogra | persia, nope | 12:33 |
| ian_brasil | be nice to start the accessibility layer with the DM too | 12:34 |
| ogra | i'm just pointing out that kdm and gdm are currently the only ones giving us what we want out of the box | 12:34 |
| ogra | and that if the patching gets to much it might be easier to write our own | 12:34 |
| ogra | that needs to be judged carefully before even starting work | 12:34 |
| persia | Well, as previously noted, gdm is a little heavy, especially when one considers the future roadmap. | 12:34 |
| ogra | right | 12:34 |
| ogra | kdm would force qt in | 12:35 |
| persia | Right, which leaves slim, xdm, wdm, etc. | 12:35 |
| ogra | slim is likely not where we need it yet | 12:35 |
| ogra | login.app (from windowmaker) very likely not either, nor xdm | 12:35 |
| ogra | if you want CK and PK support you will need to patch | 12:36 |
| ogra | and probably work against upstream | 12:36 |
| persia | Well, is it worth trying to add CK and PK support to xdm? | 12:36 |
| lool | persia: I really would like the reasons for using a dm to be crystal clear and solid | 12:36 |
| lool | My concerns are that it will effectively augment used disk space and boot time | 12:36 |
| ogra | siwthcing environments and proper session handling would be the only reasons i see ... | 12:37 |
| lool | That's fine if we have good reasons for using one | 12:37 |
| ogra | the latter should be fixable in the session script we use atm though | 12:37 |
| lool | Yeah, that's the reason I would have as well | 12:37 |
| persia | lool, I can see that. I'm just trying to make a class of problems go away. If you think it's really better to implement all of this in /etc/event.d/session, we can do it that way, but I feel that much of the problem is aldeady solved by a display manager. | 12:37 |
| lool | I know using startx breaks a couple of things and bring its own issues | 12:37 |
| lool | And switching sessions is desirable given that we have hildon and gnome based sessions | 12:38 |
| ogra | lets put a review session on the UDS agenda | 12:38 |
| ogra | and lets take a look at the effort involved for each solution | 12:38 |
| ogra | and if we would work against upstream or not | 12:39 |
| ogra | i imagine windowmaker people dont really desire PK/CK for example | 12:39 |
| persia | OK. I'll stop fiddlig with it and just write a spec then. | 12:39 |
| davidm | [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID | 12:39 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID | 12:39 |
| lool | I'm fine with the move, but think it's best to have a session on using a dm and which one to use | 12:40 |
| persia | display manager :) | 12:40 |
| davidm | [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction) | 12:40 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction) | 12:40 |
| ogra | yeah | 12:40 |
| lifeless | <troll> I don't know if scott would appreciate being used :> | 12:40 |
| ogra | and review pro and con | 12:40 |
| lool | Also, this will allow covering the two images, how the dm acts with e.g. UNR versus GNOME versus hildon, and will document why we use one | 12:40 |
| ogra | lifeless, we're a team, he's alone ... no choice for him, muhahaha | 12:41 |
| ogra | lool, for gnome environments we should stick with gdm | 12:41 |
| davidm | Sounds good, OK we still have an empty agenda page so does anyone else have a topic for this meeting? If not I'm inclined to close the meeting | 12:41 |
| ogra | if you can run gnome on the HW gdm wont be to fat | 12:41 |
| ogra | if you have a MID with 128M wasting 10M for an idling GDM you never use is different | 12:42 |
| persia | That's sortable separately, and can wait on the discussion. | 12:43 |
| ogra | yeah | 12:43 |
| lool | Let's keep this for the session then? | 12:43 |
| ogra | yep | 12:43 |
| davidm | Any additional topics for this meeting? | 12:44 |
| ogra | everyone should take a look at his favorite DM before UDS though :) | 12:44 |
| StevenK | Haha | 12:44 |
| lool | ogra: You don't want to know | 12:44 |
| davidm | endmeeting going once......................................................................................... | 12:44 |
| StevenK | My favourite DM is xterm | 12:44 |
| ogra | thats not a DM by debian definition :P | 12:44 |
| * persia used to use emacs as a DM | 12:44 | |
| lool | If I ever tell you what I use, you'll call me partial | 12:44 |
| ogra | http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager | 12:45 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager | 12:45 |
| davidm | endmeeting going twice............................................. | 12:46 |
| * ogra twiddles thumbs | 12:47 | |
| davidm | #endmeeting | 12:48 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 06:48. | 12:48 |
| davidm | Thanks | 12:48 |
| ogra | thanks | 12:48 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | ||
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| persia | Who's here for the Java meeting? | 14:06 |
| * persia cancels the Java meeting for lack of attendance. | 14:23 | |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 02:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | ||
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