[12:02] <davidm> #startmeeting
[12:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:02. The chair is davidm.
[12:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:03] <davidm> StevenK, persia lool ogra everyone here?
[12:03]  * persia waves
[12:04]  * ogra wiggles his hand in the air
[12:04]  * StevenK shores
[12:05]  * persia is broken, and retreats
[12:05] <davidm> Ha
[12:05] <lool> hry
[12:06] <davidm> OK were are all here and accounted for :-)
[12:06] <davidm> Well sort of anyway, I'm on my first cup of coffee
[12:06] <davidm> hi amitk
[12:06] <amitk> hi davidm
[12:07] <StevenK> Okay, so we have persia, me, ogra, amitk and about 1/3rd of davidm
[12:07] <lool> ...
[12:07]  * persia completely failed to actually edit the agenda before the meeting, but wants to talk about using a desktop manager
[12:07] <davidm> There ya go
[12:07] <StevenK> Oh, sorry, lool. :-(
[12:08] <StevenK> I missed you in my haste to make a joke
[12:08] <davidm> OK we did not have a meeting last week as most were gone holiday, meetings or something eles
[12:08] <davidm> The agenda page is pretty empty today.
[12:09] <jcarp> Greetings, is this the correct meeting for Ubuntu Mobile?
[12:09] <persia> jcarp, It is.
[12:09] <amitk> StevenK: 1/3rd of me too. The other 2/3rds is foraging for food
[12:09] <davidm> So does anyone have anything status wise that is notable?  At this point we really have inports for the most part
[12:09] <StevenK> Haha
[12:09] <ogra> imports, merges, spec writing ...
[12:10] <ogra> the usual post release - pre UDS stuff ...
[12:10]  * lool was on VAC and will be away next week as well
[12:11] <lool> StevenK: I'm happy to take some merges from you as I don't think I have any remaining; if you have some GNOME-ish stuff in particular
[12:11] <StevenK> I've been on VAC for Monday and Tuesday, and working on non-public things for the past two days.
[12:11] <StevenK> lool: I suspect most of my merges will go away.
[12:12] <ogra> where will they go then ?
[12:12]  * ogra is in philosophical mood ....
[12:12] <StevenK> lool: I just need to look at them
[12:12] <ogra> wow ... i wish mine were so easy
[12:13] <ogra> but moode ist that easily scared ... i guess i have to touch it (kees asked me to merge it)
[12:13] <ogra> *moodle
[12:14] <davidm> Then we have merges under control.
[12:15] <davidm> Lets talk about UDS then quickly, do we have all spec's in place for UDS?  amitk do you have any input for UDS for us?
[12:15]  * ogra hasnt set up the blueprints yet ... will do that on the weekend
[12:15] <lool> I think people have been thinking about specs, or discussions, but we need to make blueprints out of them
[12:15] <amitk> davidm: i'd like to know what devices we should support out-of-the-box and what is broken in them
[12:16] <ogra> blueprints and at least empty wikipages
[12:16] <StevenK> I need to sort out specs
[12:16] <lool> amitk: For now, I think we should revisit the jax10 and Q1U with jaunty and sum up what we miss
[12:16]  * persia should write some specs as well
[12:16] <amitk> davidm: eeePC, samsung Q1, jax10
[12:16] <amitk> etc.
[12:16]  * persia hopes the D4 can make that list
[12:17] <amitk> lool: ack
[12:17] <ogra> yes, we should look at eee
[12:17] <ogra> but we dont have HW in the team afaik
[12:17] <lool> At least the jax10 needs quite some work, not all trivial
[12:17] <davidm> That is a good question we should have some review of that at UDS, with an eye to what can really be supported.
[12:17] <ian_brasil> gps would be nice too
[12:17] <lool> I had in mind that we could have some wiki page per device with the main status for some support
[12:17] <persia> Perhaps a session "Bring your MID or UMPC for review"?
[12:18] <lool> e.g. bluetooth: works, wifi: restricted etc.
[12:18] <lool> ogra: You mean for the d4?
[12:18] <persia> cgregan had started something like that.  I'll see if I can find it, and move it to the right place.
[12:18] <davidm> persia, thanks
[12:18] <amitk> lool: I did such a page for a laptop-enabling here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AmitKucheria/LaptopEnablingOnHardy
[12:18] <lool> Since I'm subscribed to umpcportal, I saw a bunch of jax10 devices come out
[12:19] <ogra> lool, for eeePC
[12:19] <lool> amitk: Cool; also, I wonder whether we should also provision some hardware support db
[12:19] <lool> ogra: Indeed
[12:19] <ogra> lool, they are differing massively between the models :/
[12:19] <davidm> OK who is going to run with this for a spec and blueprint?
[12:19] <StevenK> persia: I like it!
[12:20] <lool> Hmm I'd like to understand better how this would work as a spec or blueprint
[12:21] <davidm> I like the original question, what devices are we supporting out-of-the-box
[12:21] <davidm> so we can come away with a target for JJ
[12:21] <ogra> yeah
[12:21] <persia> Well, it make sense as a session, and we can review what works and doesn't for each candidate HW, and then decide what needs fixing.
[12:22] <amitk> davidm: and a list of bugs to fix
[12:22] <persia> The blueprint/spec probably has to be written post-session.
[12:22] <persia> amitk, We can file the bugs in the session :)
[12:22] <ogra> the "Mobile BYO HW session" ?
[12:22] <lool> So, if I take that into a session description: "Discussion on hardware support status for misc devices"?
[12:23] <davidm> lool, that seems to make sense to me
[12:23] <lool> Or is this about allocating time to support some devices, or about ways in which we should track hardware support status?
[12:23] <persia> Probably worth adding a note somewhere that people should bring hardware.
[12:23] <StevenK> It isn't so much a spec, though
[12:23] <lool> Ok; hardware support status/testing hackfest session so to speak
[12:23] <StevenK> It's more a roundtable
[12:23]  * persia thinks it's about understanding what isn't supported so sensible allocation of resources can be made for makeing more work
[12:23] <amitk> lool: "misc" devices? I would like a list of "first-class" devices
[12:23] <persia> amitk, "first-class" would be the most popular of those brought to the session, no?
[12:24] <lool> amitk: I think your question lead to proposing a session for a similar question
[12:24] <amitk> persia: no. you have obscure devices that are not available in most other parts of the world :-p
[12:24] <lool> amitk: In the end, we need to decide which devices we focus our efforts on
[12:24] <persia> amitk, Well, that probably means I don't get "first-class" then (as much as I wish it were otherwise)
[12:24] <amitk> I am suggesting picking 3-4 of the most popular devices out there and supporting them
[12:24] <davidm> [action] davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
[12:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
[12:24] <lool> Constrained with availability of the devices and time
[12:25] <davidm> OK I think we can work with this off-line to develop the topic
[12:25] <davidm> persia, you had a topic you wanted to cover?
[12:26] <persia> Yes.
[12:26] <persia> I want to switch MID to use a desktop manager for the session, rather than /etc/event.d/session
[12:26] <ogra> he wants to hire a desktop manager :)
[12:26] <persia> Initial fiddling about with xdm is promising, but I wondered if others felt we ought use gdm or something.
[12:26] <lool> persia: a desktop or display manager?
[12:26] <ogra> how well/bad supported is xdm ?
[12:27] <persia> Maybe "display manager".  I'm not sure.
[12:27] <ogra> the latter :)
[12:27] <ogra> i dont think xdm gets much attention anywhere
[12:27] <ogra> not even upstream
[12:27] <persia> ogra, It's in universe, but comes from the X sources, and is part of the ubuntu-desktop task.
[12:27] <ogra> but gdm is becoming a bad beast
[12:28] <ogra> the new gdm will run its own user session, fire up NM and GPM
[12:28] <persia> gdm just seems a little heavy for -mid, and I'm not sure if I can customise the session in a way that doesn't break anything else.
[12:28] <ogra> and GSS
[12:28] <ogra> in that state it wont be suitable for MID at all
[12:28] <davidm> persia, for the record, why do would we want to switch from /etc/event.d/session to a  desktop manager?
[12:28] <davidm> Your thoughts behind this?
[12:28] <davidm> So other folks looking in can understand
[12:29] <lool> persia: I think Colin mentionned a lightweight display manager used for some project; it's really a dummy one
[12:29] <lool> persia: But more importantly, I'm fine with the idea but would like to document the rationale behind it
[12:29] <persia> davidm, Several benefits: it allows usernames other than "ubuntu", it allows several users, it allows use of oem-setup, it reduces race conditions, and it helps reduce the number of "touching this crashed X" bugs.
[12:29] <ogra> its not hard to write a display manager either
[12:30] <ogra> i wrote the first iteration of ldm over a weekend for ltsp
[12:30] <lool> I disagree with the first reason, find the second one not so important and think we should fix the fourth reason
[12:30] <ogra> the thing is that we want the functionallity, not necessarily the display manager itself
[12:30] <persia> lool, something like slim?
[12:30] <lool> Could be
[12:30] <lool> I can tell that it would allow switching between environments/sessions
[12:31] <persia> lool, OK.  First reason is that it's a simple way to implement it :)  There are other ways.
[12:31] <lool> And it would setup CK more elegantly
[12:31] <lool> I'm not too motivated with the multi-user use case, but I don't mind
[12:32] <StevenK> Personally, I would prefer it.
[12:32] <StevenK> It would save us a bunch of headaches
[12:32]  * ogra wonders if slim or any other lightweight DM would actually help with any of that
[12:32] <ogra> (CK, PK etc i mean)
[12:33] <ogra> i doubt they actually follow that concept closely
[12:33] <ogra> it would mean much hackery on our side if they dont
[12:33] <lool> ogra: I think the DM I discussed with Colin was actually a proposal to fix CK support, but I might not recall exactly the motivation
[12:33] <persia> ogra, So you're suggesting writing a new one rather than extending one of those to do that?
[12:33] <ogra> persia, nope
[12:34] <ian_brasil> be nice to start the accessibility layer with the DM too
[12:34] <ogra> i'm just pointing out that kdm and gdm are currently the only ones giving us what we want out of the box
[12:34] <ogra> and that if the patching gets to much it might be easier to write our own
[12:34] <ogra> that needs to be judged carefully before even starting work
[12:34] <persia> Well, as previously noted, gdm is a little heavy, especially when one considers the future roadmap.
[12:34] <ogra> right
[12:35] <ogra> kdm would force qt in
[12:35] <persia> Right, which leaves slim, xdm, wdm, etc.
[12:35] <ogra> slim is likely not where we need it yet
[12:35] <ogra> login.app (from windowmaker) very likely not either, nor xdm
[12:36] <ogra> if you want CK and PK support you will need to patch
[12:36] <ogra> and probably work against upstream
[12:36] <persia> Well, is it worth trying to add CK and PK support to xdm?
[12:36] <lool> persia: I really would like the reasons for using a dm to be crystal clear and solid
[12:36] <lool> My concerns are that it will effectively augment used disk space and boot time
[12:37] <ogra> siwthcing environments and proper session handling would be the only reasons i see ...
[12:37] <lool> That's fine if we have good reasons for using one
[12:37] <ogra> the latter should be fixable in the session script we use atm though
[12:37] <lool> Yeah, that's the reason I would have as well
[12:37] <persia> lool, I can see that.  I'm just trying to make a class of problems go away.  If you think it's really better to implement all of this in /etc/event.d/session, we can do it that way, but I feel that much of the problem is aldeady solved by a display manager.
[12:37] <lool> I know using startx breaks a couple of things and bring its own issues
[12:38] <lool> And switching sessions is desirable given that we have hildon and gnome based sessions
[12:38] <ogra> lets put a review session on the UDS agenda
[12:38] <ogra> and lets take a look at the effort involved for each solution
[12:39] <ogra> and if we would work against upstream or not
[12:39] <ogra> i imagine windowmaker people dont really desire PK/CK for example
[12:39] <persia> OK.  I'll stop fiddlig with it and just write a spec then.
[12:39] <davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID
[12:39] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for UDS on using a desktop manager for MID
[12:40] <lool> I'm fine with the move, but think it's best to have a session on using a dm and which one to use
[12:40] <persia> display manager :)
[12:40] <davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction)
[12:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID (correction)
[12:40] <ogra> yeah
 I don't know if scott would appreciate being used :>
[12:40] <ogra> and review pro and con
[12:40] <lool> Also, this will allow covering the two images, how the dm acts with e.g. UNR versus GNOME versus hildon, and will document why we use one
[12:41] <ogra> lifeless, we're a team, he's alone ... no choice for him, muhahaha
[12:41] <ogra> lool, for gnome environments we should stick with gdm
[12:41] <davidm> Sounds good, OK we still have an empty agenda page so does anyone else have a topic for this meeting?  If not I'm inclined to close the meeting
[12:41] <ogra> if you can run gnome on the HW gdm wont be to fat
[12:42] <ogra> if you have a MID with 128M wasting 10M for an idling GDM you never use is different
[12:43] <persia> That's sortable separately, and can wait on the discussion.
[12:43] <ogra> yeah
[12:43] <lool> Let's keep this for the session then?
[12:43] <ogra> yep
[12:44] <davidm> Any additional topics for this meeting?
[12:44] <ogra> everyone should take a look at his favorite DM before UDS though :)
[12:44] <StevenK> Haha
[12:44] <lool> ogra: You don't want to know
[12:44] <davidm> endmeeting going once.........................................................................................
[12:44] <StevenK> My favourite DM is xterm
[12:44] <ogra> thats not a DM by debian definition :P
[12:44]  * persia used to use emacs as a DM
[12:44] <lool> If I ever tell you what I use, you'll call me partial
[12:45] <ogra> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager
[12:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://packages.debian.org/lenny/x-display-manager
[12:46] <davidm> endmeeting going twice.............................................
[12:47]  * ogra twiddles thumbs
[12:48] <davidm> #endmeeting
[12:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:48.
[12:48] <davidm> Thanks
[12:48] <ogra> thanks
[14:06] <persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
[14:23]  * persia cancels the Java meeting for lack of attendance.