| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| fta | pochu, i gave it more thoughts, the xul path in liferea is not important since we are using static glue. it's detected by GRE at runtime. the Abort() comes from something else. | 00:58 |
|---|---|---|
| fta | pochu, i tracked it down to sqlite3 | 00:58 |
| fta | pochu, see http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/storage/src/mozStorageService.cpp#68 liferea aborts line 82 | 00:59 |
| ozzilee1 | Can anyone tell me where Ubuntu keeps track of what folder an app's launcher should go in? By folder I mean "Accessories", "Games", etc. It doesn't seem to be in the .desktop file... | 01:08 |
| * ozzilee1 will come back after watching a couple episodes of House... | 01:10 | |
| persia | ozzilee, It's calculated based on the contents of (usually) /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu which uses the Categories keys in the .desktop files. | 01:37 |
| persia | Some flavours (e.g. edubuntu or ubuntustudio) use different locations for customised applications.menu files, but the idea is the same. | 01:38 |
| fta | pochu, i just explained all that in bug 295490. please see my last comment. | 02:20 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 295490 in liferea "Liferea doesn't start with "Aborted" error." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/295490 | 02:20 |
| NCommander | ScottK, ping? | 02:25 |
| andrew_sayers | ScottK: are you available to talk about the downgrading idea? | 02:35 |
| wgrant | Ewww. | 02:36 |
| Hobbsee | andrew_sayers: i'd be interested in the discussion | 02:37 |
| * Hobbsee is looking at brainstorm, for some stupid reason | 02:37 | |
| andrew_sayers | Hobbsee: fair enough, what's your opinion on the matter? | 02:38 |
| Hobbsee | andrew_sayers: well, the only reliable way is goign to be a snapshot of the old system, which you can then go and restore. How small can that snapshot be made? | 02:38 |
| Hobbsee | andrew_sayers: like 'doze does it, with their system backup / system restore stuff. | 02:39 |
| andrew_sayers | I don't know, but I have LVM and installing Intrepid is still on my todo list, so I can do a test if someone can tell me how to check the result. | 02:39 |
| Hobbsee | i guess you could flush out certain caches | 02:39 |
| Hobbsee | such as run stuff like 'apt-get clean', etc, first, and that sort of thing, to get it down | 02:40 |
| Hobbsee | i don't actually know how to get a snapshot of a linux system, i'm afraid. | 02:40 |
| Hobbsee | but i remember the stuff on backing up had some good info | 02:40 |
| ajmitch | trying to downgrade changes made to user configuration files wouldn't be easy | 02:40 |
| persia | Well, caches can be flushed, and unmodified files ignored. It's mostly just grabbing unclaimed and modified files in /etc, dpkg --get-selections, and preserving /home to be able to restore assuming some reboots and the old disk. | 02:40 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: i don't think any sane person would even attempt that. | 02:41 |
| persia | The problem is that downgrades aren't well supported by apt, so it would need to be almost a reinstall to be known safe. | 02:41 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: it would be a "backup, and reimage" solution | 02:41 |
| ajmitch | Hobbsee: that's the problem - people wouldn't want to lose their mail, photos etc which can end up mixed in with per-account configuration | 02:41 |
| Hobbsee | andrew_sayers: http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/backup is the best thing i've found so far (and related links) | 02:42 |
| ajmitch | eg rolling back 2 weeks, you wouldn't want to be losing 2 weeks of stuff in /home | 02:42 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: well, I was assuming that it would be an immediate rollback, or at least, done within the next day or so | 02:42 |
| andrew_sayers | Hobbsee: thanks - I'll work it out if that turns out to be the way to go. Losing mail would be a problem though - LVM is a bit of a blunt instrument in that regard. | 02:42 |
| ajmitch | some problems can take a bit longer than that to surface | 02:43 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: but warnings, etc, can be written about that "warning: This will put your system back to X date, running Y version. Please make sure you have backed up any important files that you have modified since then, and wish to keep" | 02:43 |
| Hobbsee | iirc, windows does the same thing? | 02:43 |
| * ajmitch shrugs | 02:43 | |
| ajmitch | haven't dealt with windows much :) | 02:43 |
| Hobbsee | unless you keep the updated ~ | 02:43 |
| andrew_sayers | I've heard the same about Windows, but I've never tried it. I think it's just for specific stuff like the registry and c:\windows\blah | 02:44 |
| Hobbsee | which may be problematic if config files, etc, got updated. | 02:44 |
| ajmitch | and config files do get upgraded in interesting ways | 02:44 |
| Hobbsee | andrew_sayers: no, it does the entire thing. I triedit a while ago. I just don't remember what it does with the stuff in mydocs. | 02:44 |
| ajmitch | one reason why sharing /home between different versions can be painful | 02:45 |
| Hobbsee | (they pushed a video card update that kept bringing up BSODs for some of the games I was running) | 02:45 |
| Hobbsee | ajmitch: indeed. | 02:45 |
| persia | There's also the new "preserve /home" function in the installer. Maybe there'd a way to leverage that? | 02:45 |
| andrew_sayers | Hang on, is it just /etc that's the killer to downgrade? | 02:45 |
| persia | dotfiles could well be mangled, but that's an easier issue to resolve. | 02:45 |
| ajmitch | persia: apps are generally written with upgrade functionality in mind, but not downgrade | 02:45 |
| persia | andrew_sayers, /etc, user dotfiles, and possibly some stuff in /var | 02:45 |
| persia | ajmitch, Yep. | 02:45 |
| andrew_sayers | I take it that now's not the time to be talking about version-controlling those, in the general case? | 02:46 |
| persia | ajmitch, The only sane way is wipe&replace, but that doesn't necessarily mean losing 2 weeks of /home. | 02:46 |
| persia | /srv, /var/lib/, /var/log, etc. might be interesting for some users, but not others. | 02:47 |
| * ajmitch would be in deep trouble if /var/lib got rolled back | 02:48 | |
| andrew_sayers | If we wanted to go a la Windows, it wouldn't be that hard to create /var/bzr/foo symlinks that get backed up nightly. | 02:48 |
| andrew_sayers | That would make downgrading easier, be easy for packages to add to, and avoid the whole "oh no I Just deleted my config" issue. | 02:49 |
| ajmitch | part of the problem is identifying what needs to be be kept & what can be replaced | 02:49 |
| andrew_sayers | Yeah, that would have to be done on a per-package basis. | 02:49 |
| andrew_sayers | Which shouldn't be all that hard if we're just asking packages to add a symlink to a known dir. | 02:49 |
| persia | Well, conservative retention is /var/games, /var/lib, /var/local, /var/log, /var/opt, /var/spool, /var/www, /etc, /opt, /usr/local, and /home. The rest should be system managed. | 02:51 |
| persia | Most of /etc is probably md5sum identical according to dpkg, and can be dropped. | 02:51 |
| persia | The tricks are 1) performing wipe & restore without breaking things, and 2) having a restore source (e.g. package repo CD for previous install state). | 02:52 |
| persia | Depending on whether the user recently cleaned their apt-cache, this could be gigabytes of packages to download for the older versions. | 02:53 |
| andrew_sayers | How wWould the bandwidth for a downgrade be more than the bandwidth for an upgrade? | 02:54 |
| * andrew_sayers needs to put delete and enter further apart :s | 02:55 | |
| ajmitch | downgrade would most likely entail wiping whole parts of the filesystem & installing the appropriate packages, if I understand persia's suggestion correctly | 02:55 |
| persia | Yeah, that's the only way I can think of doing it, unless you provide everyone patching any pf the packages with a time machine. | 02:56 |
| * ajmitch doesn't even want to think about how maintainer scripts would handle it otherwise | 02:56 | |
| andrew_sayers | And VCing the sensitive bits wouldn't cut it? | 02:57 |
| persia | You can do a store-in-place to local storage, but reconstructing packages from unpacked source is itself inherently risky, so you still probably have download requirements. | 02:57 |
| persia | Well, sure. You could e.g. snapshot, try the upgrade, and revert the snapshot, but that takes even more local storage than using packages. | 02:58 |
| andrew_sayers | Okay, so would it be fair to say this: creating a pervasive VC system for config files isn't worth it for backup alone, but might be a good idea for the general health of your system. If it is a good general idea, it makes the specific case of downgrades easier. | 03:01 |
| andrew_sayers | All downgrades actually, since it would in principle be possible to create a snapshot before (un)installing any package. | 03:02 |
| lifeless | 'etckeeper' | 03:02 |
| persia | Indeed. There's a number of people who swear by keeping /etc in VCS. Large chunks of /var would benefit from it as well. /home in VCS is reasonably common, although usually with a decently large local folder that hasn't been added. | 03:02 |
| andrew_sayers | Is there any particular reason it's not done by default? | 03:03 |
| persia | Keeping that stuff in VCS doesn't make downgrades any less risky unless you're doing a wipe & reinstall, as maintainer scripts aren't idempotent | 03:04 |
| persia | It's a little slower, a little more complicated, and a little easier to break if you don't know what you're doing. | 03:04 |
| persia | It's also different than most random Google results on how to perform a given operation. | 03:04 |
| andrew_sayers | Fair point, although "easier to break" sounds like a fixable UI issue to me. | 03:06 |
| andrew_sayers | When you say wipe, do you mean uninstalling most packages, or deleting everything outside /usr? | 03:07 |
| andrew_sayers | Er, /home | 03:07 |
| andrew_sayers | lifeless: that's excellent. I shall now become another /etc in VCS zealot ;) | 03:17 |
| rlaager | I don't want to get sucked into this too much, but I'd like to throw out an idea that may or may not help you... I try my hardest to separate (for lack of a better word) "transient" data from the OS data. | 03:22 |
| rlaager | So, on client machines, transient data is /home, basically. Everything but /home can be trashed. (I'll get to /etc and /boot in a minute.) On a server, I move everything in /srv. So, for example, /var/lib/mysql gets moved to /srv/mysql. | 03:22 |
| persia | rlaager, In many cases, that's not so hard. For things like /etc/hosts, it's a bit tricky. | 03:23 |
| persia | The reason being that /etc/hosts doesn't belong to a package. | 03:23 |
| rlaager | How do I deal with /etc and /boot? Well, I maintain that all through the package manager. Everything that I touch there I build into (site-local) configuration packages. | 03:23 |
| rlaager | persia: /etc/hosts isn't really a good example, as nobody really modifies that much, except for the machine name. | 03:23 |
| persia | rlaager, Well, except that the system doesn't work well without it. Plus I only have 10-15 files to choose from if I want one that breaks without backup due to being created by the installer. | 03:24 |
| rlaager | Completing this idea... Any box should be able to be re-created by 1) re-installing the OS, 2) re-installing the machine configuration packages, and 3) restoring (or maintaining through the re-install) /srv or /home. | 03:25 |
| persia | Well, plus chunks of /var, but yeah. | 03:25 |
| rlaager | I never keep anything across installs from /var on either clients or servers. What would you be concerned about? | 03:26 |
| persia | Still, not so hard to take care of the bits of /etc that aren't md5sum identical with shipped, and set those aside without site-local config packages. | 03:26 |
| rlaager | Oh, sure. | 03:26 |
| persia | Or use something like puppet to determine config state from remote VCS. | 03:26 |
| persia | (well, VCS of rules that generates config, but...) | 03:26 |
| persia | And site-local packaging is a little extreme for the user that wants to undo an upgrade on an isolated desktop. | 03:27 |
| hyperair | jdong: did you upload banshee (1.2.1-3ubuntu1.1) to intrepid-proposed? it's not in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/banshee/ | 03:29 |
| rlaager | persia: Sure. If you want to ship something that Just Works, that's not the way to do it. I wasn't sure of your use case, though. For larger deployments, it makes sense. | 03:29 |
| jdong | hyperair: yes, it's uploaded. -proposed needs to be manually reviewed by an archive administrator before showing up | 03:30 |
| jdong | hyperair: an archive admin will comment on the launchpad bug to let you know when that has happened. | 03:30 |
| rlaager | persia: If I were looking to implement a snapshot-type system, I'd do the dpkg md5sum thing for /etc and grab specific things from elsewhere, e.g. /var (based on a .d directory where packages could drop a file saying, "grab this") and then I'd store in a tree of compressed backwards deltas (ala rdiff-backup) in some place like /restore, which would be left untouched by the installer. | 03:30 |
| hyperair | jdong: oh i see. forgive my ignorance =) | 03:30 |
| ScottK | andrew_sayers: I'm here now. | 03:30 |
| ScottK | NCommander: Pong. | 03:30 |
| jdong | hyperair: no probs :) | 03:31 |
| andrew_sayers | ScottK: Hey - rlaager has already summed up everything I've got to say and more :) | 03:32 |
| ScottK | OK. | 03:33 |
| ScottK | andrew_sayers: I was up for making the suggestion. I really don't have time to work on implementation. | 03:34 |
| ozzilee1 | persia: Ah, I see. Thanks. (RE application menu two hours ago) | 03:34 |
| andrew_sayers | For the VCS part of the equation, I'm quite tempted to put some time into adding the bits that etckeeper would need to be a general thing. | 03:35 |
| andrew_sayers | A more specific/newbie-friendly UI and a .d. | 03:36 |
| andrew_sayers | ScottK: Do you have time to help with a blueprint? | 03:37 |
| ScottK | andrew_sayers: Not particularly. My main point was that you can't make apt go backwards reliably. It's really, really not designed for that. | 03:38 |
| ScottK | andrew_sayers: I do encourage you to work on the problem and I'm glad you're here. I can try to answer questions. | 03:38 |
| rlaager | andrew_sayers: Yeah, I think you can easily protect the user against breaking their config files. I don't think you can protect against broken system upgrades very easily. If you want to do that, you need good filesystem snapshotting stuff... | 03:40 |
| slangasek | "make apt go backwards" --> "downgrades"? | 03:40 |
| slangasek | apt is moderately indifferent to that; it's the dpkg design that doesn't support it, and can't do sanely | 03:40 |
| ScottK | slangasek: Yes. And yes, that's a more correct way to put it. | 03:40 |
| ScottK | slangasek: The request was to be able to upgrade, say to Intrepid, and if it didn't work out due to regressions, revert to Hardy. My suggestion was good back ups. | 03:41 |
| * slangasek nods | 03:41 | |
| andrew_sayers | rlaager: the problem with snapshotting the FS is that it's a blunt instrument that can't tell /var/mail from /var/lib | 03:41 |
| rlaager | andrew_sayers: I'm not sure if you've looked at Nexenta, but from what I've read of their documentation, they have some really sweet apt/ZFS integration which takes advantage of ZFS snapshots. Basically, I think they snapshot before apt starts making changes and even add an entry to the bootloader menu for that snapshot. | 03:42 |
| rlaager | If you had /home and /srv (and whatever in /var) as a separate filesystem (which is, of course, trivial with ZFS), it'd be perfect. | 03:42 |
| lifeless | andrew_sayers: thats not really a problem | 03:42 |
| superm1 | slangasek, so as it turns out, fglrx 8.11 resolves the regression that all r3xx hardware is broken. would you consider an SRU towards it if we let it sit in proposed for a little bit and look for other regressions? | 03:42 |
| lifeless | andrew_sayers: because *of course* you are backing up separately your user content | 03:42 |
| rlaager | andrew_sayers: I maintain that the FHS is broken in that regard. ;) | 03:42 |
| slangasek | superm1: yes, probably | 03:43 |
| superm1 | slangasek, okay i'll tie of with bryce then and get an SRU for it ready tomorrow | 03:43 |
| slangasek | superm1: fglrx was usable at all at release time? I should that was one of the broken-with-modern-X ones | 03:43 |
| superm1 | slangasek, yeah it was usable for everything but r3xx | 03:44 |
| slangasek | ah | 03:44 |
| andrew_sayers | ScottK: Thanks for the offer - if I'm going to be working on my own, it's more likely to be a "2 hours a week for a year" than "2 days solid hacking" type thing, so you won't hear anything for a good long while. | 03:44 |
| superm1 | AMD came through last minute - like with a week or two to go | 03:44 |
| slangasek | ah, heh, I don't think I was aware of that | 03:44 |
| ScottK | andrew_sayers: I suspect you can build a community of interest around this. You might put it on brainstorm and try to recruit people who are interested to help. | 03:45 |
| slangasek | I do recall nvidia betas being released the day of the 8.10 release, or some such... :) | 03:45 |
| andrew_sayers | ScottK: Yeah, I've already got a little project like that. When I've done the major work on that project, I guess I'd put this next on my list. In the mean-time, I'd just be scratching my various itches. | 03:48 |
| StevenK | NCommander: Still here? | 04:36 |
| dholbach | good morning | 06:13 |
| persia | We're just looking at outstanding FTBFS in #ubuntu-motu, and notice that a lot of the !{armel,hppa} cases would benefit from just being given back. Would it be possible to schedule a mass-give-back? | 06:35 |
| infinity | persia: Yeah, it's about time to do that. | 06:42 |
| infinity | persia: I'll do it for the arches that aren't backlogged. | 06:42 |
| infinity | emet: So, !{armel,hppa,ia64,sparc} | 06:43 |
| infinity | persia: ^^ ... Not sure how that turned into emet.. | 06:43 |
| persia | infinity, Thanks. | 06:43 |
| * slangasek erases the leading 'e' | 06:43 | |
| NCommander | infinity, thanks :-) | 06:44 |
| persia | infinity, Should we watch and ask again when sparc and ia64 have caught up? | 06:45 |
| infinity | persia: Might not be a terrible plan. | 06:45 |
| infinity | persia: Anyhow, all done. | 06:45 |
| slangasek | does anyone here have softmac wireless? | 06:45 |
| NCommander | persia, we shouldn't do sparc until we at least get a second builder, it would take forever | 06:46 |
| NCommander | hey infinity | 06:46 |
| infinity | Yeah, sparc needs some hardware love right now. | 06:46 |
| persia | NCommander, I agree. ia64 just needs time. hppa needs manual intervention. armel needs to finish digesting the elephant. | 06:46 |
| slangasek | (does the softmac driver still exist, even?) | 06:46 |
| NCommander | infinity, I dunno if you remember, but we talked about issues w/ Hardy kernel on the powerpc buildds | 06:46 |
| NCommander | infinity, do you still have those logs? | 06:46 |
| infinity | NCommander: We totally did. And I totally don't have 'em lying around right now. | 06:47 |
| infinity | NCommander: (Note that it's both midnight and a holiday, so I'm just sort of stopping by..) | 06:47 |
| NCommander | As I said before, no rush. We still have two years until the next LTS | 06:47 |
| infinity | NCommander: Let me see if I can dig something up. | 06:47 |
| === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter | ||
| pitti | Good morning | 07:31 |
| lool | Hi pitti | 07:43 |
| * lool tends slowly to the pitti-time | 07:43 | |
| pitti | bonjour lool | 07:49 |
| === doko_ is now known as doko | ||
| === giskard_ is now known as giskard | ||
| ogra | hmm | 09:21 |
| ogra | do we recently support /etc/modules being a dir instead of a file ? | 09:21 |
| * ogra glares at bug 297434 | 09:28 | |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 297434 in fuse "package fuse-utils 2.7.3-4ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/297434 | 09:28 |
| ogra | there is definately no code that creates /etc/modules/udftools in the udftools package | 09:29 |
| * ogra doesnt get where that could come from | 09:29 | |
| * ogra curses .... | 09:53 | |
| ogra | so if i have a static ethernet interface in intrepid and unplug the cable, the interface goes down ? | 09:54 |
| ogra | thats just annoying | 09:54 |
| ogra | asac, ^^^ is that NMs fault ? | 09:54 |
| ogra | (it doesnt seem to touch the iface otherwise, but my nfs export via crossover cable doesnt work once i rebooted the machine on the other side of the cable) | 09:55 |
| tjaalton | pitti: duh, the xkeyboard-config cruft that got removed from the update was due to _not_ building this older version first. I was trying the newer debian version which cleans all/most generated files :) | 10:01 |
| tjaalton | pitti: but I still don't understand why 100_abnt2.diff is referenced on the debdiff, since neither of those packages have it when unpacked | 10:03 |
| pitti | I just looked at debdiff ~/ubuntu/pool/main/x/xkeyboard-config/xkeyboard-config_1.3-2ubuntu4.dsc xkeyboard-config_1.3-2ubuntu4.1.dsc|view - | 10:04 |
| tjaalton | well I've got it a lot cleaner, but debdiff still has some "reverted:" chunks | 10:04 |
| pitti | tjaalton: so those were just cruft from the previous source build? | 10:06 |
| tjaalton | pitti: the intrepid version doesn't clean up after itself, so the diff has a lot of cruft, yes | 10:06 |
| tjaalton | pitti: ah, ok.. so the old version also had x-k/patches dir, which doesn't belong there :) | 10:08 |
| tjaalton | now the diff is sensible | 10:09 |
| tjaalton | pitti: reuploaded | 10:14 |
| pitti | tjaalton: ah, indeed that slipped my attention: it's patches/, not debian/patches | 10:20 |
| pitti | someone forgot to export QUILT_PATCHES or so :) | 10:21 |
| tjaalton | pitti: yeah, well the new version does patches -> debian/patches IIRC :) | 10:21 |
| tjaalton | the one that'll soon be in jaunty | 10:21 |
| * sonicmctails always forget to set QUILT_PATCHES | 10:40 | |
| === sonicmctails is now known as NCommander | ||
| === edson is now known as \e | ||
| === \e is now known as edson | ||
| * ogra doesnt get why quilt cant just default to debian/patches ... let the people using it out of packaging have to fiddle with the env | 10:42 | |
| cjwatson | quilt started out as a tool for patch maintenance in the kernel, not for Debian patch maintenance | 10:44 |
| cjwatson | it seems a bit unfair to hijack it | 10:44 |
| ogra | is it used in debian or ubuntu for kernel patch maintenance still ? | 10:45 |
| hyperair | ogra: if you're that annoyed, stuff QUILT_PATCHES in your bashrc | 10:45 |
| * ogra doubts that since everyone doing kernel stuff uses git anyway | 10:45 | |
| cjwatson | the package exists in the archive for more than just what we use | 10:45 |
| ogra | cjwatson, i know, but is it actually still used in other ways ? :) | 10:46 |
| cjwatson | yes. | 10:46 |
| elmo | ogra: there are people who use quilt in addition to git for kernel maintenance | 10:46 |
| ogra | ah | 10:46 |
| ogra | elmo, thanks thats what i wanted to know | 10:46 |
| cjwatson | google for 'kernel quilt 2008' | 10:46 |
| ogra | then it makes sense to go into bashrc | 10:46 |
| persia | ogra, linux-rt uses upstream quilt assemblies to build. | 10:47 |
| cjwatson | and TBH when advocating a change like that the onus is on the advocate of the change to figure out whether it's still being used elsewhere | 10:47 |
| cjwatson | not for everyone else to have to be paying attention | 10:47 |
| cjwatson | people are entitled to silently use things :) | 10:47 |
| ogra | well, it never occured to me personally before it showed up in packages i had to touch ... | 10:48 |
| ogra | and it still gives me a painful time every time i have to use it | 10:48 |
| ogra | seeing comments from others i dont seem to be alone :) | 10:48 |
| cjwatson | I am not arguing with that, but "the people I know have problems" really isn't particularly good support for breaking compatibility | 10:49 |
| ogra | well, i didnt mean to make the change right now, it was just a question out of interest (and ongoing pain) | 10:50 |
| NCommander | ogra, just linux-rt ATM. | 10:51 |
| persia | Could well be less pain as various efforts in Debian to establish a common operating model for different kinds of packages bear fruit. | 10:51 |
| cjwatson | having people who only ever use it that way set QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches in .bashrc seems entirely sensible | 10:52 |
| cjwatson | although they should be careful to unset it for build testing | 10:52 |
| === mcasadevall is now known as NCommander | ||
| === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn | ||
| pitti | cjwatson: (just merging fuse) what's the rationale for having fuse in the initramfs? | 12:54 |
| pitti | cjwatson: I'd like to give a rationale for forwarding stuff to Debian | 12:54 |
| cjwatson | pitti: I already did, they rejected it | 12:59 |
| cjwatson | pitti: the rationale is to support ntfs-3g for wubi | 12:59 |
| pitti | ah, thanks | 13:00 |
| cjwatson | pitti: oh, no, the thing they rejected was putting it in / rather than /usr | 13:00 |
| pitti | that would have been my next question :) | 13:01 |
| cjwatson | (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=452412) | 13:01 |
| ubottu | Debian bug 452412 in fuse "fuse: install to / rather than /usr" [Wishlist,Open] | 13:01 |
| cjwatson | pitti: forward it if you like, I just wasn't particularly encouraged by the response I got to the other bit | 13:01 |
| cjwatson | "It has been discussed with others debian developpers and all agree it's useless for the debian project." | 13:01 |
| pitti | cjwatson: I set myself a policy to forward all non-Ubuntu specific changes to Debian bugs while merging, so I'll do it | 13:01 |
| Y2K38 | heya fellas. is it normal for a package upgrade to not have changelog? i mean i get all my informations on new features using devel changelogs.. i am quite suprised when i didn't find one! | 14:30 |
| Y2K38 | new features + bug fixes :P | 14:30 |
| hyperair | Y2K38: no it's not normal, unless you're getting it via ppa | 14:30 |
| persia | Y2K38, It's not normal at all. Which upgrade? | 14:30 |
| persia | hyperair, Even then it's not normal (although behaviour is more variable) | 14:31 |
| Y2K38 | persia: hyperair just had a look at alacarte 0.11.5-0ubuntu1.1 | 14:31 |
| Y2K38 | thats just 1 example | 14:32 |
| hyperair | persia: i've never had changelog entries from any upgrades from ppa before | 14:32 |
| Y2K38 | its not from ppa | 14:32 |
| Y2K38 | right now we have 25 upgrades and only handful of them have dev changelogs | 14:33 |
| Y2K38 | travis watkins O_o!! | 14:34 |
| Y2K38 | wtf is travis watkins!?!!?! | 14:34 |
| persia | Y2K38, I don't understand. I see http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18600518/alacarte_0.11.5-0ubuntu1_0.11.5-0ubuntu1.1.diff.gz as the diff, which definitely includes a new changelog entry. | 14:34 |
| Y2K38 | persia: that doesn't say anything | 14:35 |
| Y2K38 | persia: if my local mirror doesn't include changelog what good is it? :P | 14:35 |
| cjwatson | it's impossible for an upgrade to have no changelog at all; the very process of creating it requires creating a changelog entry | 14:36 |
| Y2K38 | maybe its the adept who's fscking up | 14:36 |
| cjwatson | it may of course have a minimal or poorly-written changelog | 14:36 |
| cjwatson | but if you're not seeing anything at all, you generally ought to look to your package management program for the problem, not to the package | 14:36 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: thats what i thought as well.. i mean the very fact that adept points me to "Index of /changelogs/pool/main" means sth is broken | 14:37 |
| cjwatson | oh, if you haven't actually installed the package yet, then adept probably routinely goes to changelogs.ubuntu.com (although technically speaking it would be *possible* to fish it out of your local mirror, it'd just be slow) | 14:38 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: persia whats the command line to get changelogs? :P thanks | 14:38 |
| persia | Y2K38, aptitude changelog $(package) is what I use. | 14:38 |
| Y2K38 | lets see if its me who's PEBKAC or the adept guys | 14:38 |
| Y2K38 | persia: thanks! | 14:38 |
| cjwatson | neither, the problem here is probably that changelogs.ubuntu.com hasn't extracted that changelog yet | 14:39 |
| persia | cjwatson, Except it's from May, which makes me think that's not it. Isn't that usually only a 4 hour delay or so? | 14:39 |
| cjwatson | six hours or so - you'd expect so | 14:40 |
| Y2K38 | wow! that really looks like a PITA.. | 14:40 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: ease up for a minute, please! | 14:40 |
| ScottK | Y2K38: Are you running Intrepid? | 14:40 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: sure i will | 14:40 |
| Y2K38 | ScottK: hardy | 14:40 |
| persia | Unless changelogs don't get copied until things move to -updates, and this was late. | 14:40 |
| * persia looks up publication date | 14:41 | |
| cjwatson | oh, no, I'm mistaken due to the truncation on changelogs.ubuntu.com's apache directory listings | 14:41 |
| cjwatson | http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/a/alacarte/alacarte_0.11.5-0ubuntu1.1/changelog looks fine | 14:41 |
| persia | But it did sit in -proposed for six months. Only got published 2008-11-12. | 14:41 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: so say i pull packages from archive.ubuntu.com, this should be fixed ya? | 14:41 |
| cjwatson | persia: the changelog was extracted on changelogs.u.c on 16 Oct, though | 14:42 |
| Y2K38 | doh! 16oct! isn't that really late or what guys? | 14:42 |
| * persia is extra confused | 14:42 | |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: huh? lay off | 14:42 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: investigating a problem is rarely helped by people shouting "this is all crap" in the middle of it | 14:43 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: and in fact, that version was published in hardy-proposed on 16 Oct. So in fact, no, it wasn't really late at all. | 14:44 |
| Y2K38 | persia: as i see it, our local mirror is _supposed_ to pull info from changelog.ubuntu.com but since its _behind_ i do not _yet_ see changelog ... thats what i understood from cjwatsons explanation | 14:44 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: I don't see why your local mirror would pull from changelogs.ubuntu.com. It would pull from archive.ubuntu.com or one of its mirrors. The extracted changelogs are not mirrored. | 14:44 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: of course the packages themselves *also* contain changelogs but adept may or may not look there | 14:44 |
| * cjwatson looks at adept in hardy | 14:45 | |
| persia | Y2K38, I think it's probably adept specific, or specific to your environment, since I can't reproduce with other tools in hardy. | 14:45 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: i take your word since you work for canonical! :) i will try to see the changelogs in couple of days... | 14:45 |
| cjwatson | ok, so adept is hardcoded to look at changelogs.ubuntu.com | 14:46 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: your local mirror is not relevant at all here | 14:46 |
| cjwatson | I suppose it's possible that adept is confused about the component, although I'm not quite sure how that would happen | 14:47 |
| cjwatson | but at any rate, yes, this does look like an adept bug | 14:47 |
| mvo | Y2K38: could you please try update-mangaer? | 14:47 |
| mvo | Y2K38: just to check if its specifc to adept or not | 14:47 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: mvo ok lets give update-manager a whirl | 14:48 |
| * Y2K38 ISP's is acting weird today | 14:48 | |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: seems like you're suffering from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adept/+bug/136381 | 14:50 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 136381 in adeptmgr "Adept doesn't show changelogs." [Unknown,In progress] | 14:50 |
| mvo | hm, so its not implemented in adept at all? | 14:52 |
| cjwatson | Y2K38: I've added a comment there with my speculation as to the cause, although how much good that'll be I don't know since Adept 3 doesn't support changelog display at all | 14:52 |
| Y2K38 | mvo: yes its adept specific it seems | 14:53 |
| cjwatson | mvo: in >=intrepid, no; in <=hardy it worked for some packages but not others | 14:53 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: w00t! | 14:53 |
| cjwatson | mvo: I think it's due to .source() returning empty when binary package == source package | 14:53 |
| * mvo nods | 14:53 | |
| mvo | cjwatson: I recently make the server side much client friendlier, should be fine to just check the binary packagenames now | 14:54 |
| pitti | StevenK: there, NBS brought down from 23042420 packages to 14; love, pitti | 14:54 |
| StevenK | Wheee | 14:54 |
| StevenK | pitti: Nice work! | 14:54 |
| StevenK | pitti: Sorry, I've been ignoring NBS :-( | 14:54 |
| cjwatson | mvo: ah, cool, can you mention that in the bug | 14:54 |
| cjwatson | ? | 14:54 |
| cjwatson | mvo: just in case the adept guys reimplement this ... | 14:54 |
| mvo | cjwatson: will do | 14:55 |
| pitti | StevenK: no need to be, just done as part of archive day; let's try to not make it so ridiculously large for extended periods of time | 14:55 |
| Y2K38 | ok guys.. till it gets a fix, i might have to refrain from using adept!!! | 14:55 |
| Y2K38 | cjwatson: thanks for pointing this out man. | 14:55 |
| pitti | StevenK: I didn't do rebuilds, just waded through the dependency circles | 14:55 |
| StevenK | pitti: Mmmm | 14:55 |
| lasko | ls | 15:03 |
| lasko | ls | 15:03 |
| lasko | quit | 15:03 |
| Y2K38 | see ya fellas.. | 15:03 |
| RainCT | When will bug #291262 be fixed? | 15:14 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 291262 in python-central "MASTER - package failed to install/upgrade: pycentral pkginstall: not overwriting local files" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291262 | 15:14 |
| cody-somerville | slangasek, I attached a debdiff to your bug re: dput | 15:51 |
| === wasabi` is now known as wasabi | ||
| soren | I forget... How do I find older versions of Debian packages? Like, say, iptables-1.4.1.1-3? | 16:10 |
| elmo | snapshot.debian.net ? | 16:11 |
| soren | Using google and hoping for an outdated mirror worked this time, but.. | 16:11 |
| soren | elmo: Oh. | 16:11 |
| soren | elmo: It doesn't show iptables versions more recent than 1.4.0-3 (date: some time in February). | 16:12 |
| soren | Does it not keep a record of all versions or has it simply not been updated for a while? | 16:13 |
| james_w | snapshot.debian.net is not updating | 16:13 |
| ScottK | Which is rougly when it died. | 16:13 |
| * soren hugs the outdated mirror he found | 16:13 | |
| james_w | and had also lost older versions last time I looked | 16:13 |
| elmo | oh, that's a shame | 16:13 |
| james_w | it's going to become part of the Debian infrastructure | 16:13 |
| * james_w hopes that will include all the history that it used to have | 16:14 | |
| jcristau | james_w: snapshot.d.n seems to have packages i uploaded a few days ago, so maybe they finally fixed the disk full problem.. | 16:15 |
| james_w | hopefully | 16:15 |
| cjwatson | LP is also mirroring Debian source on an ongoing basis now | 16:15 |
| cjwatson | soren: https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/iptables/1.4.1.1-3 | 16:16 |
| cjwatson | only started relatively recently | 16:16 |
| soren | cjwatson: *blink* Awesome! | 16:16 |
| cjwatson | as in about two weeks ago | 16:16 |
| MacSlow | mvo, got a moment? | 16:53 |
| ogra | heh Keybuk thanks for the boilerplate mail :P | 17:15 |
| Keybuk | heh, don't mention it %(fullname)s | 17:15 |
| mvo | MacSlow: yes | 17:20 |
| * Keybuk tries to work out whether the lecture from ivoks's mail server meant it didn't deliver the mail or not | 17:21 | |
| Keybuk | and I'm fully enjoying the irony that someone with silly characters in their name's mail server complains because the headers weren't 7-bit | 17:22 |
| blueyed | Can somebody please look at bug 297771, which renders logcheck quite useless on Intrepid? | 19:04 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 297771 in logcheck "logcheck ignores all logs in "server" or "workstation" config" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/297771 | 19:04 |
| slangasek | cody-somerville: thanks for the dput fix :) | 19:47 |
| slangasek | cody-somerville: btw, I should be following through on the grub xen fix today | 19:48 |
| cody-somerville | Thanks | 19:49 |
| === ogra_ is now known as ogra | ||
| === xxx__ is now known as _iron | ||
| murdok | hey kees | 21:05 |
| murdok | I saw that you applied the patch to dosemu and that it had nothing to do with the one I made :S, hehe. But it's fine, I have learnt | 21:05 |
| murdok | :] | 21:05 |
| slangasek | curious, gnome-panel doesn't know what the temperature is here today | 21:06 |
| kees | murdok: heh, yeah, I radically rearranged how it was applied, but we get the same results, and in a way that is more standard. :) | 21:31 |
| slangasek | anyone here have broadcom wireless who could check quickly whether bug #47610 still applies? | 22:01 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 47610 in wireless-tools "iwlist eth1 rate shows nonsense rates" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/47610 | 22:01 |
| calc | grr the company my wife is doing an infomercial for is totally inept :\ | 22:10 |
| calc | 6hr into a 3hr session and they haven't even started shotting yet | 22:11 |
| SOF4LNX | Some issues to solve: http://mange.dynalias.org/linux/misc/Intrepid_Ibex_errors.txt | 22:31 |
| SOF4LNX | Also, how can i get a trashcan on my desktop in Intrepid ? | 22:32 |
| joaopinto | SOF4LNX, bugs are reported at launchpad.net ;) | 22:33 |
| SOF4LNX | Hello dude :) | 22:33 |
| SOF4LNX | Some have been reported, like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gadmin-proftpd/+bug/276181 | 22:34 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 276181 in gadmin-proftpd "gadmin-proftpd crashes on startup" [Medium,Fix committed] | 22:34 |
| SOF4LNX | A solution has been out for half a year but no updates so people fill up my inbox :) | 22:34 |
| SOF4LNX | Also compile proftpd using "--with_modules=mod_tls" | 22:35 |
| SOF4LNX | Correction: --with-modules=mod_tls | 22:36 |
| SOF4LNX | Will this also be done ? | 22:36 |
| SOF4LNX | Ive also talked to the debian crew about it so maybe it will, i hope. | 22:38 |
| SOF4LNX | joaopinto: Would you like a console daemon that distributes passwords for users via ssh and scp ? | 22:39 |
| SOF4LNX | and other configurable files as well... | 22:39 |
| SOF4LNX | Like, you have one master password server and add some accounts. They will then be distributed to all configured servers you like ... | 22:40 |
| SOF4LNX | Sure beats that slow microsoft solution using CIFS stuff | 22:41 |
| joaopinto | SOF4LNX, isn't that what ldap and NIS do :P ? | 22:41 |
| SOF4LNX | Dont they add extra security issues and slowness ? | 22:41 |
| SOF4LNX | (As we talked about:) | 22:42 |
| SOF4LNX | Lets turn it around, can you see why it wouldnt be good ? | 22:43 |
| joaopinto | I don't see what is good on doing yet another version of something which has been tested for long years :) | 22:43 |
| SOF4LNX | I watch bugtrack, ldap is alright but its not the best solution by a longshot (i think). | 22:45 |
| SOF4LNX | Auth-Distributor (AD) will be without any security issues as i see it. | 22:46 |
| SOF4LNX | Granted, of course that ssh is secure | 22:46 |
| SOF4LNX | joaopinto: Lets say it could be awesome and easy to admin servers across the worlds. Would it be nice then you think ? :=) | 22:49 |
| SOF4LNX | "No, its not my kind of consolemio" :P | 22:49 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: sounds like kerberos to me | 22:53 |
| slangasek | sounds inferior to kerberos, to me. :) | 22:54 |
| cjwatson | except kerberos has had proper security design :-) | 22:54 |
| SOF4LNX | Howq can i make kerberos update and or add new users to remote computers and update other files like samba smbpasswd ? | 22:54 |
| slangasek | you don't; you do that with other technologies that are coupled with kerberos | 22:55 |
| SOF4LNX | Such as what ? | 22:55 |
| slangasek | LDAP is one example. | 22:55 |
| slangasek | nss-ldap, or userdir-ldap | 22:56 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: seriously, don't try to do your own security design for this - for example distributing passwords around is a really bad idea which is why kerberos distributes tickets instead that you can't just steal | 22:56 |
| slangasek | but it's a key feature of kerberos that random servers do *not* get to know the passwords for individual users | 22:56 |
| SOF4LNX | So LDAP wont add more security issues then not running it ? | 22:56 |
| cjwatson | it won't add more security issues than distributing passwords around your network | 22:57 |
| SOF4LNX | cjwatson: will be done irregardless using ssh keys. Not less secure then kerberos | 22:57 |
| slangasek | false | 22:57 |
| SOF4LNX | true, what do you mean ? | 22:57 |
| slangasek | trusting all of your servers with copies of the user passwords *is* less secure than kerberos | 22:58 |
| wasabi | If the keys are on each machine, then all you need to do is compromise a machine. | 22:58 |
| wasabi | any machine. | 22:58 |
| wasabi | and suddenly you have access to every other machine. | 22:58 |
| wasabi | There are well understood methodologies for this in place. From NIS to LDAP. | 22:59 |
| SOF4LNX | So then an admin should have different keys for all machines, always, even though theyre on the internal network ? And then kerberos is better, why ? | 22:59 |
| wasabi | And Microsoft's solution: Active Directory; is pretty much ideal. We can get close with kerberos and LDAP set up by hand. | 22:59 |
| wasabi | AD is Kerberos and LDAP. Just set up properly by default. heh. | 22:59 |
| SOF4LNX | Microsofts solution is slow and crappy wasabix | 22:59 |
| slangasek | wasabi:, NIS and LDAP both still have the problem that the user sends the password to the server for authentication; in Kerberos, the server is *never* sent the password, in any form. | 22:59 |
| wasabi | slangasek: NIS isn't a solution. I'm just demontstrating that we have already thought about this. | 23:00 |
| SOF4LNX | yes, ssh is more secure then LDAP and NIS | 23:00 |
| slangasek | no, it isn't. | 23:00 |
| wasabi | Dude. It's not. | 23:00 |
| SOF4LNX | wasaabilnx | 23:00 |
| * kees pulls up a lawn chair | 23:01 | |
| wasabi | SOF4LNX: You likely do not understand MS's solution. | 23:01 |
| SOF4LNX | Haha, we will keep the laughs up. But really, in the frekkin winter ? (minus degress over here) | 23:01 |
| SOF4LNX | wasabi: 15000 clients and i dont ? | 23:01 |
| SOF4LNX | doesnt scale | 23:02 |
| wasabi | Yeah. You've run Active Directory? | 23:02 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: folks here are not exactly short of experience either | 23:02 |
| wasabi | So you knwo what Kerberos and LDAP is? | 23:02 |
| SOF4LNX | cjwatson: i know that, so asking around wont be bad | 23:02 |
| wasabi | SOF4LNX: Folks here have written software for that, and have an extremely intimate understanding of it. | 23:02 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: but you also have to listen to what people with experience say ... | 23:02 |
| cjwatson | well, you ought to if you want to get the right answer. Obviously I can't tell you to do anything | 23:03 |
| wasabi | SOF4LNX: Microsoft's solution is distributed/replicated LDAP with all authentication done using Kerberos. It is the ideal solution. | 23:03 |
| SOF4LNX | I _always_ do. Hence asking | 23:03 |
| wasabi | We can approximate it by configuring OpenLDAP and MIT Kerberos, or Heimdal | 23:03 |
| wasabi | or FDS. | 23:03 |
| wasabi | But Kerberos and LDAP are the reigning kings when it comes to enterprise authentication. | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | wasabi: Id say its very slow and outdated as a solution but i feel youll try to say its not over any cheese in the worlds | 23:04 |
| wasabi | SOF4LNX: There's nothing to 'be slow'. It's LDAP. | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | Lol | 23:04 |
| wasabi | And Kerberos. I suspect you don't know what those are. | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | Its microsoft, anythings slow there | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | Or broken | 23:04 |
| wasabi | *sigh* | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | Lol | 23:04 |
| wasabi | LO!L!!@!@ | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | Same old vsaabix | 23:04 |
| wasabi | Off topic now. Bye. :) | 23:04 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: LDAP and Kerberos are not pure Microsoft technologies | 23:04 |
| SOF4LNX | I know, its not a property of wasabikind :=) | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: for one thing, both are included in the Ubuntu base system | 23:05 |
| wasabi | Man I have no idea what you're talking about. | 23:05 |
| SOF4LNX | They do it over CIFS | 23:05 |
| wasabi | No, they don't. | 23:05 |
| SOF4LNX | Windohbind | 23:05 |
| wasabi | But nice try. | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | SOF4LNX: please stop throwing around what as far as I can see are personal insults or you will be asked to leave | 23:05 |
| wasabi | CIFS is for file sharing and RPC. | 23:06 |
| wasabi | ... man what just hit us? | 23:06 |
| wasabi | me->real work | 23:06 |
| kees | troll or high? | 23:07 |
| cjwatson | no need for insults from us either :-) | 23:07 |
| cjwatson | just confused, I think | 23:07 |
| kees | well, true, but I was very confused | 23:07 |
| slangasek | kees: you need a lawn chair with a built-in drink holder | 23:07 |
| kees | heh | 23:07 |
| cjwatson | it's all too easy to get into the rut of judging security based on bugtraq message count rather than careful thinking about the design | 23:07 |
| kees | I guess, but the CIFS mention really threw me | 23:08 |
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