[03:26] <koolkat> anyone here?
[03:30] <persia> Heaps of people.
[03:31] <koolkat> cool
[03:32] <koolkat> Could i run ubuntu mid in a vm?
[03:32] <koolkat> vmware 
[03:32] <persia> It should work in a VM.
[03:33] <persia> I'm not sure how the image format works with vmware.  Most of the discussion I've seen about using MID in a VM has been for virtualbox, kvm, or qemu.
[03:33] <koolkat> what image should i download?
[03:33] <koolkat> there is a lpia and some other one
[03:34] <koolkat> umpc
[03:34] <persia> It depends on whether you want MID or UMPC.
[03:34] <koolkat> there is a difference?
[03:34] <persia> Very much so.
[03:34] <koolkat> like...
[03:35] <persia> Well, they represent two different strategies to create a perfect mobile computing experience.
[03:35] <persia> UMPC is a specially themed desktop with adjustments for smaller screens, etc.
[03:36] <koolkat> ok
[03:36] <persia> MID is a replacement framework with adjustments to use desktop apps.
[03:36] <koolkat> ok
[03:37] <koolkat> so if i wanted to run a desktop app on umpc would it work?
[03:37] <persia> Yes.
[03:38] <persia> Well, constrained by the application type, some of the hints make things odd.
[03:38] <persia> Also, some apps presume a higher resolution that is available on some UMPCs.
[03:39] <koolkat> ok..so if i wanted to run ubunt on a 5 inch scpreen what would be best?
[03:40] <koolkat> persia
[03:40] <persia> Hard to day.  I've used both MID and Mobile on a 5" screen.  They feel rather different, but I'm not sure either is better.
[03:40] <persia> s/day/day/
[03:40] <persia> s/day/say/  !!
[03:42] <koolkat> what moble device do you have?
[03:42] <koolkat> (i dont know the right name for it_
[03:42] <koolkat> )
[03:43] <koolkat> persia: what processor architecture is required? 
[03:43] <koolkat> intel?
[03:50] <koolkat> peria
[03:51] <koolkat> persia: you there/
[03:51] <persia> I'm here, just distracted by several things, and so not immediately responsive.
[03:51] <persia> I have a Kohjinsha SR-series, and a Sharp D4.
[03:52] <persia> For MID, you want an lpia processor, although it might work on similar things (try it and see).  For UMPC, you want an i586 or better.
[03:53] <koolkat> so will my laptop run umpc?
[03:54] <koolkat> perisa
[03:54] <koolkat> persia
[03:55] <persia> It's likely.  Depends on your laptop.  (And no need to use my name every time: it has almost no effect on my response time)
[03:59] <koolkat> ok
[14:30] <lool> Folks, the evince hildon patch is being removed from the evince package; it was disabled for a long while already (since hildon-fm broke)
[14:30] <persia> Excellent.  I'll take it off my list of packages to de-lpia-ify.
[14:31] <persia> lool, Any word on status of the pkg-maemo team?  Is there good stuff there, or is it stuck waiting for squeeze to open?
[14:32] <lool> persia: pkg-maemo is mostly quiet because we lack upstream stuff to package
[14:32] <lool> It's kind of chicken and egg to some level: would get more traction if we had kernel, and hildon-desktop based images
[14:34] <persia> So pkg-maemo is stuck on Debian not having such images?  Should we be pulling directly from upstream upstream?
[14:34] <ogra> upstream upstream upstream :)
[14:34] <persia> Well, that's not typically helpful, as I want the hildonisations from upstream upstream.
[14:35] <ogra> the thing is that you rarely have a clean upstream tgz ... they use to directly do native packages
[14:35] <persia> That's just surgery though.
[14:35]  * ogra would love to have maemo-mapper bt the package is a massive pain
[14:35] <ogra> i looked at it already 
[14:35] <ogra> no fun
[14:35] <persia> Pulling from pkg-maemo would have been easier, but I can understand if they are stuck.
[15:45] <s0u][ight> davidm, my connection is fixed: the samsung omnia has a 624MHz Marvell PXA312 processor
[15:47] <davidm> OK that is an ARM processor so the UMPC and MID images currently would  not do you any good
[15:47] <persia> s0u][ight, What's the resolution on that device?
[15:48] <s0u][ight> http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i900_omnia-2422.php these are the specifications
[15:49] <ogra> the linux-omap tree has an option for that CPU 
[15:49] <davidm> We have just started working on an ARM port so in the future we could possibly have an image that could work.
[15:50] <persia> s0u][ight, Even MID won't probably render acceptably at 240x400.  The lowest I've heard anyone testing is 640x480.
[15:50] <ogra> not sure how many peripherials that would support though
[15:50] <persia> s0u][ight, If you wanted to install Ubuntu, you'd want to have a very specialised custom installation, although 16GB is plenty of space (some people run in 2).
[15:51] <s0u][ight> well i'm sick of windows
[15:51] <ogra> you could run gpe on top of an ubuntu but thats indeed quite an old UI
[15:51] <ogra> or OPIE 
[15:51] <persia> s0u][ight, The other interesting question is: do you want to use that as a phone?  I don't think there's good phone software at this point.
[15:51] <ogra> but i'm not surea about the upstream development status of either ... meight be dead
[15:52] <s0u][ight> so it ubuntu mid doesn't have baseband drivers?
[15:53] <ogra> drivers dont give you a phone ui :)
[15:53] <ogra> there is no UI sofware at all yet
[15:53] <persia> It uses the same drivers as other flavours.  There's certainly support for some 3G devices, but only for data I think.
[15:53] <ogra> afaik even the openmoko needs to do dialing from console 
[15:54] <s0u][ight> this project is too new i assume
[15:54] <ogra> and not really targetig phones (yet)
[15:54] <persia> There's a couple tools that generate DTMF, and the sl-modem source can generate a sound device if the modem supports it (some have native sound).
[15:55] <ogra> -mid is for "mobile inernet devices" ... they're slightly bigger things 
[15:55] <s0u][ight> i know
[15:55] <persia> s0u][ight, No, it's not age, it's target.  The target is for adjuncts to the phone.  Much higher resolution, often with accessible keyboards.
[15:55] <persia> Such a device goes in your other pocket.
[15:55] <s0u][ight> but everything that can run windows should be able to run linux (with better performance)
[15:55] <persia> Oh, it can run linux.  It's just not a MID.
[15:55] <ogra> persia, or your backpack :P
[15:56] <persia> There are linux phone distros, but Ubuntu doesn't currently have a phone flavour.
[15:56] <persia> ogra, I left the backpack age at the turn of the century.  Catch up!
[15:56] <ogra> lol
[15:56] <ogra> but you are also living in a japanese breadbox :)
[15:56] <persia> Well, that's not strictly accurate.  I think I still used a slab about the size of the Q1U until mid-2002.
[15:57] <s0u][ight> no linux on my samsung omnia yet :(
[15:57] <persia> (of course, that was a 486DX/100, with a PCMCIA type III hard drive)
[15:58] <s0u][ight> and no way i'm going to buy a mid too expensive and big for pocket size
[15:58]  * persia recommends sport jackets
[15:59] <ogra> you can definately compile something yourself
[15:59] <ogra> there is a kernel ... so there is an opportunity
[15:59] <s0u][ight> hehe a working kernel shouldn't be too hard but a ui writing myself :|
[15:59] <persia> Main issue is UI.  Not a lot designed for those few pixels.  There's some QVGA stuff that might be adaptable though.
[15:59] <ogra> gpe, opie
[15:59] <ogra> as i said above
[16:00] <ogra> http://opie.handhelds.org/gallery/main.php/v/opie12/
[16:01] <persia> s0u][ight, Take a look at OPIE or GPE or Qtopia.  All are aging, and there are newer alternatives, but those were designed for lower pixel counts.  These days most people are hildon or QT Extended, but that usually presumes at least 640x480.
[16:01] <s0u][ight> i'm looking at them
[16:01] <ogra> seems the gpe screenshot site is broken :/
[16:02] <ogra> http://www.handhelds.org/geeklog/article.php?story=20060119163110621 there is at least one 
[16:02] <s0u][ight> yeah i was looking at that one
[16:04] <s0u][ight> and even let's forget about the ui how can i install linux on the device?
[16:06] <ogra> well, you need to have a kernel, know where it has to go so a bootloader picks it up ... create a rootfs, then install 
[16:06] <ogra> form there on you can start working on the device directly
[16:06] <ogra> and build what you need
[16:06] <s0u][ight> starting with the blackbox theory lol
[16:07] <s0u][ight> this would be nothing better than the iphone linux project :D
[16:07] <ogra> to create a rootfs you can start with queu-arm 
[16:07] <ogra> yeah, its a lot of work
[16:07] <ogra> and really only something you shoud do if you dont want to actually use the device for a while 
[16:07] <persia> s0u][ight, Yeah.  The first part is making sure you can image it, and what not.  Decidedly non-trivial.
[16:08] <persia> Where "a while" is perhaps several months.
[16:09] <ogra> yeah
[16:09] <s0u][ight> i  would have to live with windows mobile
[16:09] <ogra> or get a second device :)
[16:09] <persia> s0u][ight, Generally Ubuntu works best for devices that can boot off an external device (e.g. CD, USB drive, etc.).  This lets you test for HW support pre-install, or use a regular installer.  Without that, it's just painful.
[16:09] <s0u][ight> hehe i don't throw with money you know
[16:10] <s0u][ight> then there is the question about firmware/ sign check
[16:12] <persia> s0u][ight, Oh, if you have a firmware signature check, you'd need to control that.  Otherwise, you've little chance.
[16:12] <s0u][ight> damn my connection starts again :|
[16:13] <s0u][ight> this is the second device i posses where i can't install linux on
[16:13] <s0u][ight> my ipod doesn't work aswell :(
[16:15] <s0u][ight> brb going to try something with my connection
[16:17]  * ogra has a fine working ipod
[16:17] <ogra> with familiar on it 
[16:21]  * persia wishes someone would put the iPod classic HD in something with a keyboard and at least VGA resolution, still under 250 grams.
[16:21]  * ogra wants a pocket projector
[16:23] <persia> ogra, See, the difference is that your desire can be satisfied by just going to a shop.
[16:23] <persia> Mine is *finally* getting close to being realised, but it's still not there.
[16:23] <ogra> not at the size i want it (yet)
[16:23] <persia> Ah.
[16:24] <ogra> it shouldnt be bigger than my BT GPS reciever
[16:24] <ogra> and indeed work at daylight 
[16:24] <persia> Yeah, well, I can't get 120GB + VGA in anything smaller than 10", so I think you're closer in size.
[16:25] <persia> Well, there's the Archos, but that lacks the keyboard.
[16:25] <persia> (plus I can't find the Archos in shops :( )
[16:26] <ogra> is there a BT version ? 
[16:26] <ogra> you can use the freedom keyboard with it if there is 
[16:26]  * persia looks
[16:27] <ogra> and they seel them at amazon ... no need for a shop 
[16:27] <ogra> *sell
[16:27] <persia> Of course it's blocky.  I *know* apple could produce a device with HD, WiFi, BT, and support for common HMDs at around 215 grams, which is the annoying bit.
[16:28] <persia> I like to use things before I buy them.  Make sure they fit in my pocket right.  Make sure I can type on them reasonably.
[16:29] <ogra> the archos 7 seems to have a standard usb port
[16:29] <ogra> for kbd etc
[16:30] <persia> Yeah, but that's too big.
[16:30] <persia> Archos 5 is 300g, but no bluetooth.
[16:30] <persia> I'd prefer about 4".
[16:31] <persia> The other advantage of the iPod over the Archos is that it supports HMDs better.
[16:32] <playya> what about a nokia n810?
[16:32] <playya> it has a small key board an a usb port
[16:32] <ogra> to proprietary ? 
[16:32] <playya> or you can use a bluetooth keyboard.
[16:32] <persia> playya, Tiny storage.
[16:33] <playya> how much do you need?
[16:33] <ogra> he said 120G above :)
[16:33] <playya> ogra, which parts of the n810 are properietary?
[16:33] <persia> I'd like 250GB.  I'd put up with 120GB.  I have 40GB in my 1024x600 pocket device today.
[16:33] <ogra> playya, wlan at least
[16:33] <ogra> not sure about the other HW 
[16:33] <playya> i thought they released the driver
[16:34] <ogra> its supposed to be more open in the successore device i heard though
[16:34] <persia> I just don't like it being 500g, and it's 4.8", which is a little large.
[16:35] <playya> imho n8[10] needs a gsm chip
[16:35] <persia> Well, maybe.  I like to keep my pocket computer and phone separate.
[16:38] <playya> i'm dreaming of a all in one device for my pocket with wimax
[16:38] <playya> wimax flat of course
[16:39] <s0u][ight> hi again
[16:40] <persia> playya, I have an "all-in-one" device.  130g.  4G.  852x480.  BT, 3G, qwerty, etc.  It's generally sub-par for nearly everything, although it's not so big I mind using it for phone calls (but prefer with a headset).
[16:41] <persia> playya, I find that I have two use cases for stuff in my pockets.  The stuff I want to happen on a notify basis, and the stuff I want to happen on a demand basis.
[16:41] <persia> For things like phone calls, or maybe email, or possibly IM, it's nice to have a device that never gets shut off.
[16:42] <persia> For things like browsing, gaming, book reading, note taking, music/video playing, running spreadsheets, etc., it's nice to have a device with more power (even if that only means an 8-10 hour battery life.
[16:45] <s0u][ight> persia, are there any linux drivers for multitouch screens?
[16:46] <playya> has anyone started to bring the openmoko stuff to ubuntu?
[16:46] <persia> s0u][ight, I don't know anything about the status of multitouch.
[16:46] <ogra> playya, unlikely to happen i think
[16:46] <ogra> unless openmoko switches to a different cpu 
[16:47] <playya> ogra, the freesmartphone.org stuff might be useful on some devices
[16:47] <persia> Does openmoko have interesting applications?
[16:47] <persia> I thought it was semi-monolithic.
[16:47] <playya> the gesture recognition maybe
[16:47] <playya> but now they use enlightenment
[16:48] <playya> and maybe gypsy, frameworkd,...
[16:50] <persia> playya, If you think it's worth it, feel free to try to create relevant debian-format packages.
[16:50] <persia> It's not likely the UI is suitable for any of the default installs, but it might be fun to play.
[16:52] <playya> most of the stuff has depencies to the latest enlightement
[16:52] <persia> There was someone who wanted to get e17 packaged, although I forget whom.  Problem is lack of releases for some components.
[16:53] <playya> i use the reasy script to install e on my laptops
[16:53] <persia> Upstream behaves like many other upstreams, except that they claim all the software isn't useful to anyone except hackers, and that the tarballs that appear are snapshorts, rather than releases.
[16:58] <ogra> persia, i was told next year raster wants to make an actual release
[16:58] <ogra> seems he finally gets that he needs to make one :)
[16:59] <ogra> afaik its planned for jan/feb
[16:59] <playya> do you believe it?
[16:59] <persia> Hmmm...  That would be interesting.
[16:59] <playya> he just started a new project ...
[17:00] <persia> Of course, whether the general behaviour changes is the more interesting question.
[17:00] <ogra> playya, well, i truest the guy i talked to that he belives it :)
[17:00] <ogra> *trust
[17:00] <persia> I'd like to see the "snapshots" be called "releases", and that's about it.
[17:00] <ogra> andhe is an active contributor and promoter 
[17:01] <ogra> though he was a little upset when i called e17 the hurd of desktops :P
[17:01] <persia> The main driver has is sufficiently concerned about the meaning of "production-ready" that I'd fear a release was likely to start a new direction, and mean little more work on the existing effort.
[17:02] <playya> maybe. but raster often changes his priorities
[17:03] <playya> atm it is: see e on mobile devices instead of a stable release for pcs
[17:05] <ogra> well, thats where the requests come from
[17:06] <ogra> the guy i tlked to at CELF is a mobile dev who has customer requests for stable E 
[17:06] <ogra> thats why he pushes raster towards it 
[21:11] <playya> ogra, http://lwn.net/Articles/299694/ there will be a open driver soon