[03:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[03:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 21:00. The chair is barry.
[03:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[03:00] <barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's asiapac reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
[03:00] <thumper> here
[03:00] <jml> hi
[03:00] <jml> I am here.
[03:00] <jml> and I bet mwhudson is too
[03:01] <mwhudson> hello
[03:01] <barry> hi guys
[03:02] <barry> apologies for being a little disorganized today.  i moved and my isp screwed me over ;)
[03:02] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[03:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[03:02] <barry>  * Roll call
[03:02] <barry>  * What support can beuno and mrevell offer during the review process? (mrevell)
[03:02] <barry>  * Email cover letter to ml after pre-imp call? - barry
[03:02] <barry>  * If there's time, the old boring script
[03:02] <barry>    * Next meeting
[03:02] <barry>    * Action items
[03:02] <barry>    * Queue status
[03:02] <barry>    * Mentoring update
[03:02] <barry> [TOPIC]  * What support can beuno and mrevell offer during the review process? (mrevell)
[03:02] <MootBot> New Topic:   * What support can beuno and mrevell offer during the review process? (mrevell)
[03:03] <barry> so, at the ameu meeting we talked about beuno and mrevell helping w/preimps and reviews
[03:03] <barry> beuno mostly about ui stuff and mrevell about help, etc
[03:03] <barry> they're also invited to the reviewer meetings and we can use them in m-p's
[03:04] <mwhudson> i would say, particularly for beuno that review is too late
[03:04] <jml> right.
[03:04] <thumper> agreed
[03:04] <jml> whereas, I think that for doc changes, reviews are at about the right time
[03:04] <barry> mwhudson: yes, agreed, though i wonder if he should be a reviewer for all ui changes
[03:05] <jml> that would be interesting
[03:05] <barry> though he /should/ be involved earlier, maybe he /must/ be involved at review time?
[03:05] <mwhudson> jml: indeed
[03:05] <jml> if he can keep up with the load, I think that would be a good idea
[03:05] <mwhudson> barry: i'd worry that he'd become a bottleneck
[03:05] <mwhudson> but maybe it's worth a try
[03:05] <jml> it'll still add review latency problems
[03:05] <jml> which will discourage trivial UI patches.
[03:06] <jml> although, even if it's a post-merge review it'll probably help
[03:06] <barry> right.  i just think with all the redesign going on, we need someone to make sure things are consistent
[03:07] <jml> the big danger to watch out for is ending up with another situation like db patches.
[03:07] <barry> i know review latency is a big problem for you guys
[03:07] <barry> jml: yes, great point
[03:08] <barry> jml: though it'll be different because it wouldn't be on such a limited clock tick
[03:08] <jml> this is why I think post-merge UI reviews are worth considering
[03:08] <mwhudson> yes, that's perhaps a good idea
[03:08] <barry> jml: ui pre-imps & post-merge reviews?
[03:09] <jml> yes, although that brings me to my next thought :)
[03:09] <jml> which is that nominally, we share few core hours with Martin.
[03:09] <jml> that said, 2/3 of us rarely do UI work anyway.
[03:09] <barry> yeah, that does suck
[03:10] <mwhudson> and martin is an insane insomniac
[03:10]  * barry had him and sinzui at his house all last week :)
[03:11] <barry> ok.  i'll powwow with martin and see if he has some ideas, suggestions, preferences
[03:11] <mwhudson> sounds sane
[03:11] <barry> cool
[03:12] <barry> please do let me know if you have more ideas here.  i don't want to impose any more bottlenecks, just looking forward a bit to handling big ui changes
[03:12] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Email cover letter to ml after pre-imp call? - barry
[03:12] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Email cover letter to ml after pre-imp call? - barry
[03:13] <mwhudson> does anyone actually read the review list any more?
[03:13] <mwhudson> i haven't been able to keep up for months
[03:13] <thumper> I don't
[03:13] <thumper> too busy
[03:13] <barry> mwhudson: i'm thinking of sending it to the launchpad list.  bad idea?
[03:13] <thumper> I think that'll make the launchpad list even more unfollowable
[03:14] <mwhudson> anyway
[03:14] <jml> barry: what's the thinking behind the idea?
[03:14] <mwhudson> barry: what
[03:14] <mwhudson> right, what jml said
[03:14] <thumper> is the intent to make people do more pre-impls?
[03:15] <barry> thumper: partly that yes.  also so people have a better idea about what is going on and to spur wider discussion -- when people care
[03:15] <barry> you'd probably ignore most of it, but something might catch your eye
[03:16] <barry> better to do so early on than in the review process
[03:16] <barry> i'm trying to write my covers right up front
[03:16] <thumper> if people could give useful subject lines it might help more
[03:16] <jml> hmm.
[03:16] <thumper> so I don't have to read the messages
[03:16] <jml> barry: I wonder if this is the right tool to solve the problem.
[03:17] <barry> jml: maybe not
[03:17] <jml> barry: my cover letters often say what I'm solving, what approach I'm taking and why. But they also discuss details of the implementation that simply aren't there pre-impl
[03:17] <jml> barry: my guess is that if I did cover letters up front, I'd still need something like a cover letter sent on review.
[03:18] <barry> jml: yes.  i start the cover when i start the branch.  it helps crystallize my thinking.  i add pre-imp call notes, then implementation details as i'm working on it, so by the time i'm done, it's an accurate (hopefully helpful) detailed explanation of what i've done
[03:19] <jml> barry: so, another thing we could try is this:
[03:19] <jml> when you start working on something, set the bug to "in progress", and put an interesting comment in.
[03:20] <thumper> or, dare I say it, a work in progress merge proposal
[03:20] <barry> thumper: ?
[03:20] <jml> thumper: I've got a bug filed saying that there should be a stronger association between the two :P
[03:21] <barry> jml: between bugs and m-ps?
[03:21] <jml> barry: specifically between bug/branch links and m-ps
[03:21] <jml> barry: but bugs and m-ps would follow, I hope.
[03:21] <barry> jml: that will be awesome
[03:21] <jml> barry: the bug is pretty vague :)
[03:22] <barry> :)
[03:22] <jml> barry: that said, I do think that using the bug / blueprint tracker for this is the right way to go.
[03:22] <jml> barry: as individuals, we have a finer level of control over what bugs we find interesting.
[03:23] <barry> jml: yes.  for me, it all starts at the bug/blueprint
[03:23] <jml> plus we have the advantage of making that decision whenever we wish, rather than when an email appears in our inbox.
[03:23] <barry> right
[03:24] <jml> cool.
[03:24] <barry> that's all i have on this topic.  obviously my thoughts aren't fully baked
[03:25] <barry> one more topic not on the agenda
[03:25]  * jml needs to configure flashing red lights to go off when bug 173633 gets started.
[03:25] <barry> [TOPIC] mapping m-p states with lp review process
[03:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  mapping m-p states with lp review process
[03:25] <barry> or something like that
[03:25] <barry> we had a discussion at ameu about how to map our current lp review states onto m-p states
[03:26] <thumper> which I didn't fully agree with
[03:26] <barry> there was a vigorous discussion about it!
[03:26] <jml> I didn't follow that discussion.
[03:26] <barry> so just to summarize...
[03:26] <barry> we had strong but not unanimous agreement that...
[03:26] <barry> needs-reply == needs-fixing
[03:26] <thumper> +1
[03:27] <barry> merge-approved == approve
[03:27] <thumper> +1
[03:27] <barry> merge-conditional == approve + comment
[03:27] <thumper> +1
[03:27] <barry> and most people don't like resubmit :)
[03:27]  * thumper maybe does agree
[03:27] <thumper> we shouldn't have resubmit
[03:27] <thumper> because we talk to each other
[03:27] <barry> or at least, we as lp developers should never get a resubmit
[03:27] <jml> right. pre-impl calls basically make it unnecessary.
[03:27] <thumper> right
[03:27] <barry> though we might when/if we start taking floss contributions
[03:28] <thumper> we don't develop in a vacuum
[03:28] <thumper> barry: agreed
[03:28] <jml> thumper: speak for yourself!
[03:28] <barry> jml: there's no air in oz?
[03:28] <jml> thumper: I find hacking in a vacuum reduces the pressure.
[03:28] <thumper> jml: well, that is certainly true
[03:28] <thumper> jml: and you often get shit done
[03:28] <jml> barry: only the best air on earth!
[03:29]  * jml was making a terrible pun, actually
[03:29] <barry> :-D
[03:29] <barry> so, sounds like you guys like the ameu decision?
[03:29] <jml> yeah.
[03:29] <thumper> yep
[03:29] <mwhudson> yes
[03:30] <barry> cool
[03:30] <barry> well, that's it for me.  anything on your minds?
[03:30] <thumper> just vegie curry
[03:30] <jml> the absence of lunch :)
[03:31] <barry> you eat, i'll sleep
[03:31] <barry> see you next week!
[03:31] <barry> #endmeeting
[03:31] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:31.
[03:31] <jml> see ya :)
[03:31] <barry> thanks guys
[03:31] <jml> barry: thanks