[00:16] <jml> Hobbsee: is https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/50248 being tracked in the bug? does the question need to stay open?
[00:18] <Hobbsee> jml: Pass.  I don't do translation stuff at all
[00:19] <jml> sorry, wrong URL
[00:19] <jml> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/50893
[00:19] <jml> Hobbsee: ^^ that one
[00:19]  * jml needs a global kill-ring
[00:23] <Hobbsee> jml: i'm not sure.  I guess not, as long as something actually happens with the bug.
[00:34] <jml> Hobbsee: ok. I've closed the question. Re-open it if you reckon it'll help.
[00:34] <Hobbsee> jml: ok, thanks
[01:33] <mwhudson> is Fabien Tassin here?
[01:35] <Hobbsee> mwhudson: fta?
[01:36] <mwhudson> ah yes
[01:36] <mwhudson> fta: hello
[01:38] <jml> is there an equivalent of https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/<bug_id> for questions?
[01:40] <fta> mwhudson, hi
[01:40] <mwhudson> fta: so about the google chrome import
[01:42] <fta> mwhudson, the import is broken, and now the project is was tied to has been removed too. I can reask for an import but i assume it will fail too for the same reason
[01:42] <mwhudson> fta: i'm not sure that's a good assumption
[01:42] <mwhudson> fta: in other words, i think it's worth a try
[01:42] <fta> the svn url will be the same
[01:43] <fta> i don't see how it will be different from ~1 hour ago when the old project was still alive
[01:43] <mwhudson> won't the url be http://src.chromium.org/svn/trunk/src rather than http://src.chromium.org/svn/trunk/src/chrome ?
[01:44] <fta> yes, but one is a subset of the other, but should import just fine
[01:44] <fta> -but+both
[01:45] <fta> btw, this one is broken too https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/v8/trunk
[01:45] <fta> v8 is part of the chromium project too
[01:46] <mwhudson> the two-bit summary of the v8 failure is that google code sucks
[01:46] <mwhudson> i guess i can try to use svnsync to get a local copy of the repository and import from that
 yes, but one is a subset of the other, but should import just fine
[01:47] <mwhudson> fta: when you've worked in the crufty business of vcs imports for as long as me, you stop making assumptions :)
[01:48] <fta> i have local import of both in bzr, it's just fine, i also made a git import to compare with bzr, fine too
[01:49] <mwhudson> i bet you didn't do the imports with cscvs
[01:49] <fta> indeed
[01:53] <mwhudson> where as the vcs imports service on launchpad does
[01:53] <mwhudson> fta: what is it you actually trying to achieve here?
[01:53] <mwhudson> +are
[01:55] <fta> those imports were not from me, but i'm using them to monitor the status of the project. I recently created my local imports because the ones on lp were broken, and also because i'm creating packages
[01:57] <fta> mwhudson, if it's too complicated, nm. i'll setup a real local sync when i have time.
[01:59] <mwhudson> it's not necessarily complicated
[01:59] <mwhudson> basically, i would invite you to set up the imports you want, as you want them
[01:59] <mwhudson> and ignore/have deleted the broken ones
[02:00] <fta> ok, will do. thanks for your time
[02:00] <fta> 3am here. 'night all.
[02:02] <mwhudson> night
[03:11] <CarlFK> who is respncible for "2) The version of the package you are using, via 'apt-cache policy packagename' or by checking in Synaptic."
[03:11] <CarlFK> it would be nice if ﻿'packagename' was the name of the package I am reporting on
[03:11] <CarlFK> so that I can cut/paste that, and cut/paste the results
[03:12] <Hobbsee> CarlFK: instead of the source package it belongs to?
[03:12] <jml> CarlFK: where does that text appear?
[03:12] <CarlFK> whats the difference?
[03:14] <CarlFK> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xawtv/+filebug#form-start
[03:15] <CarlFK> may need to fill in a summary: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xawtv/+filebug "x" enter, "No, I'd like to report a new" bug" scroll down
[03:15] <Hobbsee> CarlFK: some sources contain many binaries.  launchpad is organised by source packages
[03:19] <CarlFK> oh... I think I kinda get it.  ﻿"In what package did you find this bug?"  is on the same page.  so it would have to do ajaxy validation then replace ﻿packagename with something
[06:31] <jml> the truth is I never left you.
[07:15] <Ryan52> Why is the "Importance" for bugs read only? how do I get the ability to change them?
[07:16] <Ryan52> (if this is the wrong place to ask this, then sorry, please point me to the correct place)
[07:16] <persia> Ryan52, You need to be a member of the right bug team for the project against which the bug is filed.
[07:16] <Ryan52> "Ubuntu Bugs" is the only team listed in the "Also Notified". Does that mean that's the team I need to be a part of?
[07:17] <persia> Oh, for bugs in Ubuntu, you need to be in ubuntu-bugcontrol
[07:17] <persia> But for bugs in #ubuntu, #ubuntu-bugs is a better place to ask.
[07:18] <Ryan52> ok, thanks
[08:47] <Ow1> hi.
[08:48] <Ow1> were the unlicences translations removed from Launchpad ?
[08:49] <kiko-zzz> Ow1, not sure they were done yet, but they are scheduled for today
[08:49] <Ow1> do you know how should I format the URL to point to a translation
[08:50] <Ow1> and to be valid for all users
[08:50] <Ow1> I know there is something with +me
[08:50] <kiko-zzz> visit the translation page for the string and use that URL?
[08:50] <Ow1> but tha url contains my username
[08:51] <kiko-zzz> Ow1, does it? can you give me an answer?
[08:51] <Ow1> yes
[08:51] <Ow1> I can see it
[08:51] <kiko-zzz> sorry s/answer/example/
[08:51] <Ow1> a
[08:52] <Ow1> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/~adiroiban/+licensing
[08:52] <Ow1> this is for my account
[08:52] <kiko-zzz> Ow1, well.. that's not a URL for a translation. can you explain what you want to give people?
[08:52] <Ow1> I want to ask them to accet the BSD licence
[08:53] <Ow1> accept
[08:53] <kiko-zzz> Ow1, gotcha! that's not the same as you asked before :)
[08:53] <kiko-zzz> Ow1, translations.launchpad.net/+me/+licensing
[08:53] <kiko-zzz> sorry
[08:53] <kiko-zzz> https://translations.launchpad.net/people/+me/+licensing
[08:54] <Ow1> many thanks!
[08:54]  * wgrant thinks that /+me should work.
[08:54] <Ow1> so for any further usage i should replace "~adiroiban" with "people/+me"
[08:54] <Ow1> it is working
[08:55] <kiko-zzz> yep
[08:55] <Ow1> Right now if someone has not accepted the BSD licence, his/her translations will be removed from Launchpad.
[08:55] <kiko-zzz> right
[08:55] <Ow1> What happens if he/she accept the licence tomorrow?
[08:56] <kiko-zzz> it will be too late
[08:56] <Ow1> is there a way to recover them?
[08:56] <kiko-zzz> danilo-afk, ping
[08:56] <wgrant> Hm.
[08:56] <kiko-zzz> I don't believe so
[08:56] <wgrant> I thought I saw an email saying they wouldn't be removed due to non-answering.
[08:56]  * wgrant finds it.
[08:56] <kiko-zzz> really?
[08:56] <Ow1> yes. mee to. I also saw that email from Danilo
[08:57] <wgrant> What about people who haven't answered the question yet.. is there
[08:57] <wgrant> > going to be a mail-out to those translators, or the administrators of
[08:57] <wgrant> > the projects concerned?
[08:57] <wgrant> "Those translations will be kept."
[08:57] <wgrant> From danilos himself.
[08:57] <wgrant> What an awful paste.
[08:57]  * wgrant kicks Thunderbird.
[08:57] <oojah> Where did this email get sent?
[08:58] <Ow1> ubuntu translators lists
[08:58] <wgrant> oojah: launchpad-users
[08:58] <oojah> Right, ok.
[08:58] <wgrant> And ubuntu-translators, it seems.
[08:58] <oojah> I must've missed it.
[08:59] <wgrant> Re: Important Launchpad news: removal of non-BSD licenced translations
[08:59] <wgrant> On 2008/11/15
[08:59] <kiko-zzz> Ow1: william's right and I stand corrected; there's a point that I hadn't noticed originally
[08:59] <wgrant> Actually, probably 2008/11/14 unless you're in Australia or NZ...
[08:59] <oojah> :)
[09:01] <wgrant> I cannot understand how somebody behind Sun's NAT can drop out so frequently.
[09:02] <persia> wgrant, Awkward placement of WiFi transmitters?  When attending Sun-sponsored events, I've often found I had short drops.
[09:03] <oojah> I don't really follow l-u so it's a good job I noticed this conversation. I wonder what percentage of translators have/haven't responded yet.
[11:19] <luisbg_> I want to change the status of this spec https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-studio to done, can I do it or does it have to be pete savage (the registerer)?
[11:21] <cody-somerville> luisbg_, either a launchpad admin, ubuntu driver, or Pete will have to change it
[11:23] <luisbg_> cody-somerville, thanks! long time no see
[11:23] <luisbg_> any launchpad admin in the house? :P
[11:41]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[11:42]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[11:44]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[11:46] <Hobbsee> paolettopn_zzz: any chance you can get rid of that script?
[12:39] <kalila> danilos: urgent - please check your email (Djihed)
[12:48] <mrevell> Hey, does anyone here speak Turkish?
[14:26] <vvinet> hey, is it normal that I get "edit upstream link association" and "delete upstream link association" links on a project overview page
[14:26] <vvinet> even though I should not have any permissions on that project
[14:26] <vvinet> (I didn't try the links - dont want to )
[14:43] <persia> vvinet, It's normal for things not yet associated, in the hopes that people would only use them if they have the correct data.
[14:44] <persia> delete upstream link association sounds odd.  I suspect it would take you to an error.  If not, hrm.
[14:45] <vvinet> I see it here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace
[14:48] <vvinet> I have not clicked the delete button, as it is a POST form and could therefore have an effect
[14:48] <vvinet> (in theory)
[14:49] <persia> Better not to click it then.
[15:44] <CoMp4c7> i have an app which uses openid. I can login with all providers I have tested (myopenid, claimid, verisign) but not with launchpad, any ideas?
[15:58] <RainCT> kiko: can you help CoMp4c7? :)
[15:58] <kiko> CoMp4c7, hmmm. well, it's a problem for sinzui and flacoste. what's the problem you're having?
[15:59] <CoMp4c7> i am getting the errror:  Server denied check_authentication
[16:00] <sinzui> CoMp4c7: This may relate to OAuth. My own scripts (launchpad API) require an Authorization token
[16:00]  * sinzui thinks
[16:01] <CoMp4c7> i can login succesfully with the same app running in local
[16:05] <sinzui> CoMp4c7: what do you mean by local? Your localhost? Your home directory?
[16:05] <CoMp4c7> sorry, localhost
[16:06] <sinzui> oh CoMp4c7 by openid, do you mean your Launchpad OpenID url?
[16:07] <CoMp4c7> i am trying to log in with http://login.launchpad.net
[16:09]  * sinzui wonders if this is borked because Launchpad does not use OpenID for its own logins
[16:12] <CoMp4c7> sorry, i don't understand what are you saying
[16:12] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: are you a beta test users?
[16:12] <CoMp4c7> yes
[16:14] <sinzui> Since this works on localhost, I wonder if this is a cookie issue. Launchpad knows you are login by the cookie in the request
[16:19] <CoMp4c7> if I remove all cookies in browser it should not happen?
[16:22] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: where are you trying to log in?
[16:24] <CoMp4c7> http://db.freevial.org
[16:29] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: when I enter https://login.launchpad.net in there, i get the 'Authenticate to http://db.freevial.org' screen on Launchpad
[16:29] <flacoste> which allows me to click 'Sign In'
[16:29] <flacoste> ok,
[16:29] <flacoste> it seems to fail for me also after that
[16:31] <CoMp4c7> do you have any ideas about what could be the problem?
[16:31] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: not really, i'd say a problem in Freevial openid implementation
[16:32] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: well
[16:32] <flacoste> i think what is happening is that its trying to use check_immediate/check_authentication to validate the just provided credentials
[16:32] <flacoste> and we don't support that mode
[16:32] <flacoste> and the spec allows us to do this
[16:33] <flacoste> check_immediate/check_authentication is for validating credentials without user intervention, a valid response is 'I cannot do this without user intervention' which it seems they decide to fail
[16:33] <flacoste> but this is a valid return code
[16:34] <CoMp4c7> and why do you think it is not a problem on localhost?
[16:34] <flacoste> what do you mean localhost?
[16:35] <RainCT> flacoste: (He's the author. The source is available at http://tinyurl.com/freevial-db-edit, btw)
[16:36] <CoMp4c7> when app is running in localhost
[16:36] <flacoste> hmm
[16:36] <flacoste> ok
[16:36] <flacoste> actually, i just checked check_authentication spec
[16:36] <flacoste> and what i was just saying is incorrect
[16:37] <flacoste> check_authentication is used by a consumer to valide the signature
[16:37] <flacoste> if we say it's invalid, it's because probably of a request parameter
[16:42] <CoMp4c7> but if the problem is with the request, it also had to fail when the app is runnig in localhost
[16:44] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: what is Auth/OpenID ?
[16:46] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: sorry, i don't understand what you are asking for
[16:46] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: what OpenID library are you using?%
[16:48] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: PHP OpenID library by JanRain
[16:50] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: version?
[16:51] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: 2.1.2
[17:01] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: ok, i'm trying to see if I can find a record of that error on my side
[17:02] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: from the top of my head, I'd suspect difference some of the parameters that change from one request to the next one
[17:02] <flacoste> on the live site, but not on localhost
[17:02] <flacoste> but this is really hand-wavy
[17:05] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: in particular, make sure that getReturnto() returns an identical value from within the two requests
[17:05] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: when mode='try' and when mode='continue'
[17:07] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: other things to consider, is /tmp configuration in both instances?
[17:07] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: and is apache configured similarly in both instances
[17:08] <flacoste> i'm thinking about configuration which makes that the store isn't really used
[17:08] <flacoste> and so means that it falls back to the check_authentication dumb mode
[17:09] <flacoste> which is an error if the request started by a valid association (saved to the store, but lost when the reply comes back)
[17:09] <flacoste> thus going down the check_authentication route (which fails, because a shared secret was used initially)
[17:09] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: but if store is not working fine, it would fail with other providers
[17:10] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: maybe
[17:11] <flacoste> depends on the implementation of the other providers
[17:11] <flacoste> which protocol they are using
[17:11] <flacoste> 1.x or 2.x
[17:11] <CoMp4c7> about apache, I don't think both servers are configured similary, db.freevial.org is in a shared hosting
[17:12] <CoMp4c7> but I checked the problem is not a mod_encoding problem, as many people say in Google
[17:18] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: i have manually typed returnTo to be sure it doesn't change and i get the same error
[17:18] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: ok, i'll have to look at my logs, but first i need some lunch, will you be around later?
[17:19] <CoMp4c7> i will be here next 3 hours i think
[17:19] <CoMp4c7> thank you very much for your help!
[18:05]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[18:07]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[18:37] <ahasenack> so, my use case of PPA is to build packages for me. I only use PPA because I need these packages for older distros (dapper, for example), otherwise I would be building them on my machine only (hardy).
[18:37] <ahasenack> so I tend to upload packages, build, tweak, upload again, etc
[18:38] <ahasenack> the problem is that PPA checks the versions, and I can't just delete a package and upload it again, PPA wants me to bump the version all the tame
[18:38] <ahasenack> time
[18:38] <ahasenack> so isn't PPA for me?
[18:38] <persia> ahasenack, Probably not.  You might be interested in a local installation of pbuilder or sbuild.
[18:39] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: why the version suffix bother you ?
[18:39] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: I use my ppa for build tests, and once I'm satisfied I use the landscape's ppa "for real"
[18:39] <beuno> ahasenack, that's the nature of apt
[18:39] <ahasenack> so, basically I only want a build machine for the older distros
[18:39] <ahasenack> I don't mean to use my PPA to publish these builds
[18:40] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: it very hard for use to guess that.
[18:40] <ahasenack> use?
[18:41] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: if you mean "users", well, that's it, I don't want users for my ppa
[18:41] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: you can workaround that easily by working on $real_version~ppaN
[18:41] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: I meant 'us', but nevermind
[18:43] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: unless the problem I was debugging and testing involved the versioning itself... :(
[18:43] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: which is what it does, so I can't mangle the version-release part because I actually need to test an upgrade path
[18:44] <persia> beuno, Hrm?  How is it apt?  apt doesn't mind if you upgrade, downgrade, crossgrade, etc. (although things might break).  I thought it was for repo sanity.
[18:45] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: apart from being more difficult and confusing the version tilde suffix should allow you to test upgrade paths as well
[18:45] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: but I understand it might become inconvenient in certain cases.
[18:45] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: can I have more than one ppa attached to the same account?
[18:46] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: no
[18:46] <ahasenack> I read somewhere about private ppa
[18:46] <ahasenack> ok
[18:47] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: I don't know exactly what to suggest, usually people go for PPA because they want history and a coherent repository, if you only care about building in a pristine area you can use pbuilder
[18:47] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: play as much as you want locally and upload the 'final' version to PPA
[18:49] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: can I use pbuilder to build for older distros? Like dapper? Just install a dapper chroot, etc?
[18:49] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: bear in mind that there is always a safe way around version (either using ~ or + as suffix), unless you use epoch :(
[18:49] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: the package is already using ~
[18:49] <ahasenack> so I can't mangle it twice
[18:49] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: yes, you can have multiple chroots with pbuilder
[18:50] <ahasenack> even the landscape ppa, we don't use its publishing capabilities in landscape, we have another repository elsewhere that is the official one
[18:50] <ahasenack> we basically use ppa as a build mechanism, that's all
[18:50]  * ahasenack searches for space on his laptop for 3+ more distros
[18:51] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: you have the history on PPA
[18:51] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: we have it in bzr branches
[18:52] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: we don't grab the previous source build to build a new version, our debian/* structure is in bzr
[18:52] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: not the binary as it was built originally, I suppose
[18:52] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: no, those we archive elsewhere too
[18:56] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: it's just a little frustrate, on both sides, we could publish stuff with not checks what so ever, but if you look to the ubuntu history all 300k sources have coherent versions. Why is that hard to get on a project basis ?
[18:56] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: I understand your side, believe me
[18:57] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: my biggest problem is with builds for older distros, which I don't have at hand to test and "practice"
[18:57] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: so PPA is basically unforgiving regarding any mistakes
[18:57] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: note that I'm not blaming you, it's a general problem, bzr gets this too.
[18:57] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: even if the mistakes were never "released"
[18:57] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: again, it's because I use it as a build bot and have no intention of publishing the packages until they are fine
[18:58] <cprov-lunch> ahasenack: it's very fascist in this aspect
[18:58] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: hmm, am I wrong in thinking that even failed builds get blacklisted? I vaguely remember something about that
[18:59] <cprov-lunch> yes, even FTBFS versions get blacklisted.
[18:59] <persia> ahasenack, You can use ~~ to further mangle ~, but you *really* want a local build service for your use case.
[18:59] <cprov-lunch> persia: really ? ehe
[19:00] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: so, if people use ppa to build+publish, wouldn't they probably have a local build service anyway to test first?
[19:00] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: if failed builds get blacklisted, that would waste a version/release
[19:00] <ahasenack> cprov-lunch: anyway, sorry, it's another topic
[19:00] <cprov-lunch> `dpkg --compare-versions '1.0~1' 'lt' '1.0~~1' || echo 'it is'`
[19:00] <persia> cprov-lunch, '~' isn't magic.  It's just a character.  It happens to sort beneath null.
[19:01] <persia> So ~~ sorts before ~
[19:01] <ahasenack> thanks for the tips all, I will try to get some linodes as build bots for my use case
[19:02] <cprov-lunch> persia: I didn't assume it to be magic, just restrict to a single use in debian versions. But you are right, it's smaller and pass the validation regexp.
[19:02] <persia> ahasenack, You might be interested in deb-o-matic, which is a framework to have multiple pbuilders running against multiple targets on a remote (controlled) host for build-testing.
[19:02] <persia> cprov-lunch, That's just convention.
[19:03] <persia> (and in Debian, if you need more than one, you've already shot yourself in the foot)
[19:04] <cprov-lunch> great, let's applaud !
[19:05] <persia> cprov-lunch, This brings back the debate as to use cases for PPAs :)  Has there been any discussion on the topic in the past couple months?
[19:05] <NCommander> persia, oooh, that sounds cool, where can I find this deb-o-matic?
[19:06] <cprov-lunch> persia: no, just this project-based ppa thing hitting us harder and harder.
[19:08] <persia> cprov-lunch, Ran into that one with the Japanese team today as well.  I suspect that's probably a more important priority than sorting individuals.
[19:09] <cprov-lunch> persia: but do you understand why is it hard for teams to follow a safe versioning path ?
[19:09] <persia> Yes.
[19:09] <cprov-lunch> persia: is it a social problem cause by the lack of "queue"  (review) ?
[19:09] <persia> I wrote it up in a bug once.  I'll go try to find it.
[19:09] <cprov-lunch> s/cause/caused
[19:10] <persia> No.
[19:11] <persia> It's the use of PPAs for distribution vs. the use of PPAs for test-building/review.
[19:11] <persia> I personally believe PPAs are currently positioned somewhere between the two, and not quite optimal for either, but I want to find my rant again.
[19:13] <cprov-lunch> persia: right, I see your point
[19:14] <persia> bug #263301 is different, but my comment there sums up the two use cases.
[19:14] <persia> There's a couple other related bugs, but I don't see them right now.
[19:15] <cprov-lunch> persia: let me check.
[19:15] <persia> I have seen bug reports from users wishing each of the two use cases, so it's not clear-cut how to fix it.
[19:19] <cprov-lunch> persia: right, your comment on that bug tends to agree with the current behaviour, towards orig.tar.gz coherency with ubuntu
[19:19] <cprov-lunch> persia: that I think is consensus, right ?
[19:19] <persia> I don't think there is consensus.
[19:20] <cprov-lunch> persia: the version blacklisting is the part that causes disagreement, IMHO
[19:20] <persia> Well, there's people who complain about the version blacklisting, and then there's people who complain about e.g. package signing.
[19:20] <ahasenack> any particular reason why a failed build also gets blacklisted? It's not like it was ever downloaded and installed: it didn't even build
[19:21] <persia> I don't think it's best fixed on a per-bug level.  I think it needs a philosophical decision as to which use case to support, or to continue to straddle this boundary.
[19:21] <persia> ahasenack, The source package was published.
[19:21] <ahasenack> persia: does it have to be published in this case?
[19:22] <cprov-lunch> persia: we agree on this, it's way wider the fixing each isolated bug.
[19:22] <persia> ahasenack, Yes, because it needs to be published to be passed to the buildds.  It's part of the architecture of Soyuz.
[19:22] <ahasenack> ok
[19:22] <cprov-lunch> persia: oops, not literally, the source doesn't have to be in the repository to be built.
[19:23] <persia> Right.  Last time we discussed this (Maybe August or early September), you thought it might come up in some of the LP meetings scheduled.  If it hasn't, that's fine.  I mostly just wanted to check :)
[19:23] <persia> ahasenack, Trust cprov.  He actually knows this stuff.  I'm just a user.
[19:23] <ahasenack> persia: :)
[19:24] <cprov-lunch> persia: it was discussed many times since PPA are out, no decision was made, because it seems to run fine for the vast majority of weekend-users
[19:25] <cprov-lunch> persia: we have only few problematic project-based PPA which suffer from this problem.
[19:25] <persia> cprov-lunch, Right.  It's "good enough" for most things, but annoying for anyone who wants to use it heavily.
[19:25] <cprov-lunch> persia: yes, we can say that.
[19:25] <persia> cprov-lunch, Personally, I don't think that's necessarily bad, as long as it's by design.
[19:26] <cprov-lunch> tacking the problem w/o disrupting the rest of the users is mandatory at this point
[19:26] <persia> It's like getting a mid-range digital camera.  Not as light and portable as a pocket camera.  Not as featurefull as an SLR.  Still, the most popular range.
[19:27] <persia> On the other hand, if that is the decision, it would be good to determine that, and intentionally wontfix the bugs for users who want a review system or want a real publishing system for their own distro.
[19:27] <cprov-lunch> persia: good example, but kind of depreciate what we want to be the best/easiest/fastest pkg management system out there, right ?
[19:29] <persia> cprov-lunch, Well, it's a matter of picking segment.  If you want to be good for test-build/review stuff, you need to be flexible enough that you're unsafe for repository work.  If you want to offer repos that people can trust, you're unsuitable for test-build/review.  Currently, it's somewhere in-between.
[19:30] <persia> For the same reason you can't put a dSLR in your pocket easily.
[19:30] <cprov-lunch> :)
[19:30] <cprov-lunch> persia: well, currently PPA have very consistent repositories & history (versions are blacklisted and the repo is never ovewritten)
[19:30] <persia> One option we discussed previously was letting users select signed/strict vs. unsigned/loose for each PPA, but it was suggested that this option would be confusing, and that there would be no way to safely change it later.
[19:31] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: how would i recognize your localhost instance using referer in my log
[19:31] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: also i find it very strange, i don't seem to see any connections for the check_authentication call
[19:31] <cprov-lunch> persia: once we release per-PPA repo signatures it will be state-of-art for the latter use-case
[19:31] <persia> For hosting a derivative distro?
[19:31] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: http://localhost/~arnau/freevial
[19:32] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: if I grep for "http://db.freevial.org" referral on login.launchpad.net,  I only see requests for the initial +openid page
[19:32] <cprov-lunch> persia: yes, why not ?
[19:32] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: did you made any requests today from it?
[19:32] <CoMp4c7> yes
[19:33] <persia> cprov-lunch, I thought there were a few other bugs around that, but if that's the plan, it's a sensible direction.
[19:33] <CoMp4c7> i discovered that there are the same problem with claimid.com
[19:33] <CoMp4c7> i think it is a problem of the server
[19:34] <persia> cprov-lunch, Fixing the remaining little bits will probably even more annoy the test-build users, but they ought be using local build farms anyway (it's annoying when three people upload OOo at once, for example).
[19:34] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: ok, I cannot see anything interesting in the logs, unfortunately
[19:34] <persia> cprov-lunch, Also, it will probably end up being slightly more "complex" due to the key management systems, etc., although with good docs this shouldn't matter too much.
[19:35] <cprov-lunch> persia: one key per PPA, makes the whole dance simpler.
[19:36] <persia> Anything else is madness.
[19:36] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: ok, this is very weird
[19:36] <cprov-lunch> persia: extra signatures can be made on top of the signing key to increase trust.
[19:36] <persia> cprov-lunch, Is the plan to use the user's email, or a constructed email for signing?
[19:36] <cprov-lunch> persia: if the user really cares about sane distribution of his packages
[19:36] <persia> So if I do a keyserver search for "Emmet Hikory", would I find my PPA key?
[19:37] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: do you have any idea about where could be the problem?
[19:37] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: i just tried again and the URL of the page returned by launchpad - that displays the error - do contain a succesful auth reply
[19:37] <flacoste> CoMp4c7:
[19:37] <flacoste> http://db.freevial.org/auth.php?mode=continue&janrain_nonce=2008-11-18T19%3A35%3A42ZbAvTGr&openid.assoc_handle=%7BHMAC-SHA1%7D%7B49231912%7D%7BTpfGdQ%3D%3D%7D&openid.claimed_id=https%3A%2F%2Flogin.launchpad.net%2F%2Bid%2FcDYAwTe&openid.identity=https%3A%2F%2Flogin.launchpad.net%2F%2Bid%2FcDYAwTe&openid.mode=id_res&openid.ns=http%3A%2F%2Fspecs.openid.net%2Fauth%2F2.0&openid.ns.sreg=http%3A%2F%2Fopenid.net%2Fextensions%2Fsreg%2F1.1&openid.
[19:37] <flacoste> op_endpoint=https%3A%2F%2Flogin.launchpad.net%2F%2Bopenid&openid.response_nonce=2008-11-18T19%3A35%3A46Z7Hj4Ht&openid.return_to=http%3A%2F%2Fdb.freevial.org%3A80%2Fauth.php%3Fmode%3Dcontinue%26janrain_nonce%3D2008-11-18T19%253A35%253A42ZbAvTGr&openid.sig=bC03e6utz%2FsL0gNQJyJdKvNDTro%3D&openid.signed=assoc_handle%2Cclaimed_id%2Cidentity%2Cmode%2Cns%2Cns.sreg%2Cop_endpoint%2Cresponse_nonce%2Creturn_to%2Csigned%2Csreg.nickname&openid.sreg.
[19:37] <cprov-lunch> persia: key email & comment will be deliberately blank
[19:37] <flacoste> nickname=flacoste
[19:37] <persia> cprov-lunch, And name?
[19:38] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: so it's in the processing of that URL that the error message is generated
[19:38] <cprov-lunch> persia: name will be the ppa title + 'signing key'
[19:38] <persia> So something like "Emmet Hikory's PPA signing key" ?
[19:38] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: the error message talks about check_authentication failing, but I know for sure that no such request has been made to Launchpad
[19:38] <cprov-lunch> persia: yup
[19:39] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: since only request is ever made (check_authentication implies that your server would send another request to Launchpad to validate the signature provided in the above URL)
[19:39] <flacoste> only one request, i mean
[19:39] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: it could be a encoding problem, but I double check that...
[19:39] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: what encoding problem?
[19:41] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: when apache sends parameters to php, i read about a problem with mod_encoding, for example
[19:42] <persia> cprov-lunch, In that case, it sounds like you've made the decision, which is good.  I'd recommend going through and wontfixing bugs like 263301 with a note that PPAs are designed for distribution, and while they can be used to test-build or for review, it is the user's responsiblity to take appropriate care with versioning, package names, etc.
[19:42] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: could be a session problem
[19:43] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~freevial/freevial/php-db-edit/annotate/74?file_id=consumer.php-20080707143651-baxjp2psoha1dy4y-10 line 425
[19:44] <cprov-lunch> persia: thanks for the encouragement, let me find my "hit-me" helmet and go on with that.
[19:44] <lamalex> hey guys, can anyone tell me how to make a member an administrator of a team/project?
[19:44] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: what I haven't tested yet if the store is set up correctly
[19:44] <CoMp4c7> and could be related with this
[19:45] <persia> cprov-lunch, No problem.  As I said before, it's not important to me which was chosen, but I thought the fence-straddling while leaving all the bugs open was a bad course to follow.
[19:45] <beuno> lamalex, go to the team's page, go to "Show all members", and edit him to being an admin
[19:46] <cprov-lunch> persia: thinking for a sometime, while fixing other problems, might have helped.
[19:47] <persia> cprov-lunch, Understood :)  It's great that you've gotten to the point where this becomes a sensible decision.
[19:47] <lamalex> beuno: edit them how?
[19:47] <lamalex> i dont see the option anywhere
[19:48] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: in the file I pointed you at, look at 964
[19:48] <lamalex> ah nevermind
[19:48] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: that's where it's failing, for some reasons it seems that it doesn't know about the association
[19:49] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: do you have a database available? you could change store implementation
[19:49] <beuno> lamalex, do you have permissions to do so?
[19:49] <lamalex> yah, i found it, thanks
[19:49] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: there is a MySQL/PostgreSQL store implementation provided
[19:49] <cprov-lunch> persia: I can only thank you for the help in make is 'sensible'.
[19:50] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: or SQLiteStore
[19:50] <persia> cprov-lunch, Feel free to ask me for a rant anytime.  If I don't have one stored up, I'll generate one.
[19:50] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: do you know if your server is a single host or a server farm?
[19:50] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: app uses a mysql database
[19:50] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: I suggest you switch to the MySQLStore implementation, that should be safer
[19:51] <flacoste> just in case, /tmp isn't shared across the different servers
[19:51] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: and faster
[19:51] <CoMp4c7> i will try that
[19:51] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: let me know if this solves your problem
[19:51] <CoMp4c7> php also saves Sessions to tmp
[19:54] <persia> NCommander, https://launchpad.net/debomatic
[19:55] <persia> ahasenack, Actually, you might find that link useful as well.
[19:55] <ahasenack> persia: hehe, was just checking it out, you mentioned deb-o-matic just a little time ago
[19:56] <ahasenack> persia: have you used it?
[19:57] <persia> ahasenack, I've used it, but not hosted it.  No idea about the administration.  As a user, you just upload stuff, and it gets built, which is handy.
[19:57] <ahasenack> ok
[19:59] <cprov-lunch> persia: ehe, you are a priceless resource to us. We should send you LP t-shirts ;)
[20:01] <persia> cprov-lunch, I'm priceless when I recommend competing build-farm software?  I should start promoting trac here: I bet I'd get a tie pin :)
[20:01] <kiko> cprov-lunch, and we can; just talk to marianna and she'll arrange. that is as soon as he stops promoting trac!!
[20:02]  * persia stops promoting trac
[20:02] <cprov-lunch> persia: see, you were doing well until you mentioned trac :)
[20:04] <cprov-lunch> persia: btw, suggesting pbuilder to users is the right thing to do, ubuntu developers do use it extensively before uploading sources, it's ideal for learning. I don't see any problem with that.
[20:04] <beuno> cprov-lunch, I've been thinking if there's anything we can do on the UI that will make it more clearly that even after deleting a package, that "namespace" is used.
[20:05] <persia> actually, many of us use sbuild, for closer similarity to the buildds.
[20:05] <beuno> maybe saying very clearly that the user has to upload a version above X?
[20:05] <persia> If the buildd chroots were easily available for download, we'd be based off those.
[20:07] <cprov-lunch> beuno: deleted/superseded packages are listed with the appropriate filter. Are you thinking in something else ?
[20:07] <beuno> cprov-lunch, do you have a quick link to where I can see how that looks now?
[20:07] <cprov-lunch> beuno: source and binaries (if any) are available from librarian, all the metadata is listed, etc.
[20:08] <cprov-lunch> beuno: go to a heavy PPA, let me find one.
[20:09] <beuno> cprov-lunch, I'm thinking more along the lines of visually displaying to the owner of the PPA above *what* version they can upload from
[20:09] <beuno> so you don't have to dig into history, it's something that's right there on the main page
[20:10] <cprov-lunch> beuno: uhm, ISWYM, interesting
[20:11] <cprov-lunch> beuno: try https://edge.launchpad.net/~fta/+archive
[20:11] <persia> It's probably worth having a link to a precise description of the ordering of versions, so that users aren't confused by things like the odd behaviour of ~ or issues with things to the left or right of the final -
[20:12] <cprov-lunch> beuno: https://edge.launchpad.net/~fta/+archive?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=any results grouped by distroseries and sourcepackagename, possibly
[20:13] <beuno> cprov-lunch, so, if a user deletes a package, it wouldn't show up on that list anymore, right?
[20:13]  * fta ?
[20:13] <beuno> on +archive
[20:14] <beuno> fta, nevermind, you're just a good example  :)
[20:14] <cprov-lunch> beuno: it does, with 'any' or 'superseded' filter
[20:15] <cprov-lunch> beuno: it's 'all there', literally.
[20:15] <beuno> cprov-lunch, so if you upload a package, and then delete it, it still shows up?
[20:15] <cprov-lunch> beuno: yes, as 'deleted'.
[20:16] <beuno> cprov-lunch, so maybe we could show, just to the owner, greater than what versions of the packages they have to upload
[20:17] <beuno> does that sound reasonable, or an overkill?
[20:17] <cprov-lunch> beuno: sounded overkill
[20:18] <persia> beuno, Do you think most users understand the rules well enough to benefit from greater highlighting?  I think most of the complaints are from folk who aren't using PPAs for distribution.
[20:18] <cprov-lunch> beuno: which problem would we be solving in this case ?
[20:19] <beuno> cprov-lunch, the bug where poeple have to hit their heads against re-uploading the same version after deleting it
[20:19] <beuno> making it clearer that they can't in advance
[20:19] <cprov-lunch> beuno: I'm afraid about trying to get too much information in a single page, the hidden area below each row is already a mystery for most users.
[20:19] <beuno> persia, well, they kinda ahve to know about versions, don't they?  As they specify them everywhere on the packaging
[20:20] <beuno> this may be just rambling on my part
[20:20] <persia> beuno, Well, if they use dh_make or follow one of the many guides blindly, they probably don't understand why they are using -1, or why that might not be the best choice.
[20:21] <cprov-lunch> beuno: the solution is the search for 'foo' in 'any' status, making that somehow intuitive
[20:22] <persia> beuno, Also, I think most people don't necessarily understand that they are distributing something in a formal way, or that it's different from uploading to some web space.  The concept of "upload to replace" is fairly widespread.
[20:22] <beuno> yeah, that's kinda what I want to solve I think
[20:22] <beuno> try and convey that more clearly on the UI
[20:22] <beuno> that they're actually distributing it
[20:24] <cprov-lunch> good point, but which UI artifact would make it clearer ?
[20:24] <beuno> quite a few
[20:24] <persia> That might be part of the activate-PPA interface.  Notify the user that they are creating an distribution archive for delivery to end-users, etc.
[20:24] <beuno> I think we should have a few beers at UDS  :)
[20:24] <beuno> all 3 of us
[20:24] <cprov-lunch> beuno: :)
[20:25] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: i think i know why I get that error
[20:25] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: do tell me!
[20:25] <CoMp4c7> flacoste: no association file is created
[20:25] <flacoste> and why is that?
[20:25] <flacoste> i thought FileStore should handle that
[20:26] <CoMp4c7> I don't know
[20:26] <CoMp4c7> when I login to claimid, the file is set up
[20:27] <CoMp4c7> but when login to launchpad not
[20:27] <cprov-lunch> beuno, persia: maybe showing how many users have downloaded PPA packages might make that clear. "if you screw 1000 users will bug you."
[20:27] <cprov-lunch> also, not in that negative way.
[20:27] <persia> cprov-lunch, No, because then the person who has a count of zero will want to know why they can't have an exception.
[20:28] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: are you sure you are hitting the same host everytime?
[20:28] <flacoste> CoMp4c7: there might be multiple /tmp
[20:28] <cprov-lunch> persia: zero users is very likely to be a temporary status.
[20:28] <flacoste> that's why I suggested using MySQLStore
[20:28] <CoMp4c7> now i have set up the filestore in home
[20:29] <CoMp4c7> there was a problem with mysql, that is why i didnt test it
[20:29] <CoMp4c7> I have to go out
[20:29] <cprov-lunch> persia: they will also see other PPAs heavily used and will want to reach the same status.
[20:29] <CoMp4c7> thank you very much
[20:29] <persia> cprov-lunch, Sure, but it probably makes sense to provide a counter once it's hit some threshold (e.g. 100).  Before that, just providing a generic warning avoids the case where people want exceptions.
[20:30] <cprov-lunch> persia: right, false impression of unimportance. Anyway, just a crazy idea, we are not near the PPA-statistic task :(
[20:31] <persia> cprov-lunch, Yeah well.  Next month.
[20:31] <RainCT> btw, can you guys remove feedback requests from blueprints? (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-live-chat-support/+spec/ubuntu-live-chat-support got several support requests :P)
[21:18] <lamalex> hey guys, anyone around? i've got a question.  I'm trying to make a subproject, but my parent project isn't showing up in the list. Do I need to do anything special to flag a parent project?
[21:20] <lamalex> ahh just saw this https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/149338
[21:20] <lamalex> is there anyone here who can create a project group?
[21:22]  * paolettopn e' away (ciao a tutti!)
[22:33] <Rocket2DMn> Are there any LP admins available?  The user maurizio-live filed a bunch of garbage bugs which I have closed.  Further action may need to be taken to ban the user.
[22:36] <beuno> Rocket2DMn, his account as already been suspended
[22:36] <beuno> thanks for letting us know
[22:39] <Rocket2DMn> cool, thank you beuno
[22:46] <wgrant> Ah, it's good to see the Launchpad dev becoming a real wiki, with the clutter and inconsistent namespacing that normally plagues them...
[22:51] <lamalex> ha
[22:57] <lamalex> any LP admins around can help me with https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/51810
[22:59] <jml> lamalex: not right now. kiko's the one who needs to deal with that.
[22:59] <lamalex> ok np, that bug should be dealt with though, it's very unclear that LP needs to make a project group
[23:03]  * wgrant checks the new bug page UI on staging, and wonders why it is offering a link to mark this bug as a duplicate when the next bit of text on the page shows that it can't be done.
[23:04] <wgrant> beuno: ^^
[23:09] <beuno> wgrant, the short answer is "it's complicated"
[23:09] <beuno> and we're working on a deeper solution
[23:14] <wgrant> beuno: And why does the security flag hide behind a link which doesn't mention security?
[23:15] <wgrant> And people continue to break the actions menus...
[23:15] <wgrant> Bug actions menus on staging now have an item labelled 'change', and another labelled ''. Lovely.