[00:39] <yn1v> fitoria: Hello man!
[00:39] <fitoria> yn1v: what's up!
[00:40] <yn1v> fitoria; r you having a nervous break down ?
[00:40] <fitoria> :P
[00:40] <yn1v> I am her for you !
[00:41] <yn1v> ha ha here no her
[00:41] <fitoria> great :P
[00:41] <n0rman> woot?
[00:42]  * Hobbsee suggests that here is not the place.
[00:44] <pinolillo> I have a problem with ubuntu 8,04, somebody of Nicaragua or that speaks Spanish so that it helps me please.
[00:45] <Sp4rKy> pinolillo: #ubuntu or  #ubuntu-es for support please
[00:46] <pinolillo> :)
[00:47] <yn1v> pinolillo is getting plenty of attention at #ubuntu-ni right now!
[00:47] <bobesponja> pinolillo: fitoria is from nicaragua :)
[00:48] <pinolillo> Thank you very much to help me.
[00:56] <effie_jayx> @now
[00:58] <william> an hour 2 minutes to start
[00:58] <TiMiDo> nice
[00:59] <effie_jayx> exactly
[01:21] <TiMiDo> @now
[01:22] <william> somebody has the list
[01:22] <TiMiDo> list for?
[01:23] <TiMiDo> william, the list for what?
[01:24] <william> people who applied to be an ubuntu memeber
[01:24] <william> member
[01:24] <pedro_> william: is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[01:26] <william> thanks
[01:26] <pedro_> you're welcome
[01:26] <fitoria> soy 4to
[01:27] <TiMiDo> I'm the Fifth person in line
[01:27] <TiMiDo> ;X
[01:27] <anakron> Hi all
[01:27] <anakron> HI Brian Murray
[01:27] <TiMiDo> hey anakron
[01:28] <anakron> Hi Timido
[01:28] <TiMiDo> What's up anakron
[01:29] <anakron> mmm
[01:29] <anakron> nothing really
[01:29] <anakron> i must study now, but i think that it will be interesting
[01:29] <anakron> so ill stay here some minutes
[01:30] <TiMiDo> yeah just look around perhaps.
[01:30] <TiMiDo> anakron, the meeting will be held in like 20 more minutes.
[01:30] <TiMiDo> @now
[01:40] <anakron> im looking for mrooney, Timido, have you ever seen him?
[01:41] <TiMiDo> not really anakron
[01:41] <TiMiDo> anakron, he is online though so msg him
[01:51] <bobesponja> @now
[01:53] <cody-somerville> :]
[01:53] <TiMiDo> =)
[01:54] <alucardni> @now
[01:55] <vor> heHATEme: Is that a cry for help?
[01:55] <heHATEme> yep
[01:55] <musikgoat> hi all!
[01:55] <TiMiDo> hi musikgoat
[01:55] <TiMiDo> Good Luck musikgoat =)
[01:55] <alucardni> hi and good luck musikgoat :)
[01:56] <musikgoat> thanks :-)  should I be expecting a test :-)
[01:56] <musikgoat> hehe
[01:56] <TiMiDo> no but an interview perhaps :X
[01:56] <william> how much time left?
[01:56] <musikgoat> that, i can handle better
[02:00] <atoponce> everyone here?
[02:00] <alucardni> hi atoponce
[02:00] <TiMiDo> yeah i am here atoponce
[02:00] <elkan76> me too!!
[02:00] <Sajnox> I'm here, goodnight to everybody
[02:00] <fitoria> yep
[02:00] <alucardni> @now
[02:00] <atoponce> time to get this show on the road
[02:00] <TiMiDo> nice
[02:00] <alucardni> nice
[02:01] <effie_jayx> good evening all
[02:01] <atoponce> just a reminder: we are going through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas in order
[02:01] <musikgoat> i'm here as well atoponce, good evening
[02:01] <vorian> hello
[02:01] <TiMiDo> good evening effie_jayx
[02:01] <vorian> +1
[02:01] <alucardni> good evening effie_jayx
[02:01] <leogg> good evening and good luck to everybody
[02:01] <atoponce> please have a short statement summarizing your contributions to ubunt, a link to your wiki page, and launchpad profile
[02:01] <TiMiDo> thank you so much leogg
[02:01] <fitoria> good evening!
[02:01] <william> good luck to all
[02:02] <nellery> hi everyone and good luck to all :)
[02:02] <atoponce> also, if anyone is here to rally those applying, step up at the appropriate time after their intro
[02:02] <atoponce> the members of the council tonight are:
[02:03] <atoponce> myself, effie_jayx, vorian, pleia2, cody-somerville and pedro_
[02:03]  * vorian curtsies
[02:03] <atoponce> so, with that, elkan76 you're up first
[02:03] <elkan76> ok
[02:04] <elkan76> Hi everybody!
[02:04] <elkan76> https://launchpad.net/~elkan76
[02:04] <elkan76> Well as you can see in my wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MauricioPennaloza), my name is Mauricio Peñaloza, i'm a computer engineer and i use linux from 2004. From 2007 i worked actively on Ubuntu-cl my LOCoT.
[02:04] <elkan76> Today in this community i'm the forum administrator (http://foros.ubuntu-cl.org) and a member of the LoCo council. I'm not good programming, but i have a  loooooooooooot of patience trying to teach to the people, and working in the stands of our community when we are invited to local fairs, i like talk too much to the people about Ubuntu, trying to demostrate how easy to use is Ubuntu. As you see on the wiki, recently i finish a big project for edi
[02:04] <elkan76> And this is all my ubuntu-life (i don't talk about my blog because is horrible), but if you want to look it http://para-opinar.blogspot.com/
[02:05] <vorian> what is your relationship to the cl.org forum?
[02:05] <vorian> ah, administration
[02:06] <elkan76> yeap
[02:06] <effie_jayx> elkan76,  what recent events have you participated?
[02:06] <effie_jayx> in
[02:06] <vorian> elkan76: how do you folks handle difficult users (trolls and the like)?
[02:07] <Hobbsee> shoot them!
[02:07] <Hobbsee> oh, err...
[02:07] <vorian> :o
[02:07] <Hobbsee> ;)
[02:08] <effie_jayx> elkan76, ?
[02:08] <elkan76> well i participate on Encuentro Linux 2008, Freedom Software day, Open Minds 2008
[02:08] <elkan76> and FLISol 2008
[02:09] <effie_jayx> sounds great, participation was through the loCo team or shared oportunities with lugs?
[02:09] <elkan76> Only with the LoCO
[02:10] <elkan76> but if any LUG needs me here i am
[02:10] <atoponce> elkan76: what would ubuntu membership mean for you?
[02:11] <elkan76> Well, first more responsability, because it means that i really understand what Ubuntu means
[02:12] <elkan76> and how far we can go if every people makes a real compromise with this OS
[02:12] <atoponce> elkan76: what is your main focus? i see some translation work on launchpad, and loco work on your wiki.
[02:15] <atoponce> elkan76: ?
[02:15] <elkan76> I think that loco work, because translations is only a way to show the people how easy is work on free sf
[02:15] <vorian> elkan76: I think you are fabulious! +1 from me!
[02:16] <elkan76> thanks
[02:16] <pleia2> well done elkan76
[02:16] <pleia2> +1
[02:16] <atoponce> +1 here as well
[02:16] <effie_jayx> +1 from me
[02:17] <pedro_> +1 from here too
[02:17] <elkan76> many thanks
[02:17] <vorian> cody-somerville?
[02:18] <cody-somerville> +1
[02:18] <vorian> \o/
[02:18] <vorian> welcome aboard elkan76
[02:18] <atoponce> elkan76: congrats! welcome aboard
[02:18] <pleia2> congrats elkan76 :) welcome
[02:18] <pedro_> congratulations elkan76, welcome aboard!
[02:18] <effie_jayx> elkan76, bienvenido
[02:18] <atoponce> is andres here?
[02:18] <fitoria> felicidades! elkan76!!!
[02:18] <leogg> congrats elkan76
[02:18] <alucardni> felicidades elkan76
[02:18] <TiMiDo> buena compare elkan76 te felicito paisano jajaja
[02:19] <n0rman> bien hecho elkan76 :)
[02:19] <fitoria> !ping
[02:19] <Sajnox> congrats !!
[02:19] <pinolillo> felicidades prix
[02:19] <atoponce> anyone know about andres mujica?
[02:19] <jimbodoors> elkan76, felicidades
[02:19] <alucardni> atoponce: noup
[02:19] <atoponce> ok. alucardni, you're next
[02:19] <william> felicidades elkan
[02:19] <alucardni> thanks atoponce
[02:20] <alucardni> Hi everyone, I'm José Ernesto Dávila Pantoja (alucardni). I'm from Corinto, Nicaragua. My first contact with GNU/Linux was about 8 years ago when I was in college, since there I've used several distros such as: Red Hat 7.2, 7.3, 8 and 9; Mandrake 9.1; Debian Woody r3.0 and adopted Ubuntu as my only distro since Warty.
[02:20] <alucardni> I've been working with the Nicaraguan LoCo Team since the very begining to make FOSS be adopted specially by non-geek users. Why am I on FOSS movement? 'Cause I identify myself with the filosophy of FOSS. 'Cause I like it :) and 'Cause it's great to know that your can help others to improve their skills using FOSS even more when you get feedback such as this (https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+question/50
[02:20] <alucardni> my LP: https://launchpad.net/~josernestodavila and my Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Josernesto
[02:21] <effie_jayx> alucardni, what best describes your participation in the Ubuntu project ?
[02:22] <leogg> I want to cheer for alucardni. He organised our very first event as a LoCo Team in March 2007 and since then he has worked non-stop for the Nicaraguan community. He's a true leader and very enthusiastic about Ubuntu and FOSS.
[02:22] <alucardni> effie_jayx: my comitment to the community,
[02:22] <alucardni> effie_jayx: sometimes I've to travel for 5 hours to participate in an event
[02:22] <cody-somerville> alucardni, to which community? The FOSS Community or the Ubuntu community?
[02:22] <atoponce> leogg: thx
[02:22] <alucardni> cody-somerville: both
[02:23] <cody-somerville> alucardni, how have you contributed to the Ubuntu project?
[02:23] <pedro_> alucardni: with which other communities of Central America have you been working ? and how's the relationship with those?
[02:23] <alucardni> cody-somerville: as you can see on my LP I've been giving support, and making translations for ubuntu
[02:24] <alucardni> pedro_: recently I was in Guatemala in a event with the Guatemalan Team
[02:24] <alucardni> and we share experiences with the salvadorian team as well
[02:24] <alucardni> and right now we are
[02:24] <effie_jayx> alucardni, What kidn of participation do you engage in these events?
[02:25] <pedro_> alucardni: do you have any photos online we can see or a link to that events?
[02:25] <alucardni> effie_jayx: part of the staff, giving talks
[02:25] <alucardni> and workshops
[02:25] <n0rman> I want to support what leogg said, alucardni is one of the key person for the FOSS community in our country.
[02:26] <alucardni> pedro_: I've but I'll need sometime to get the links posted here
[02:26] <pedro_> alucardni: ok
[02:27] <fitoria> let me help alucardni here a photo http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/SFDNicaragua2008#5248161318396789826
[02:28] <alucardni> thanks fitoria
[02:28] <vorian> n0rman: but this is for Ubuntu membership, not FOSS membership
[02:28] <fitoria> another pic http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/SFDNicaragua2008#5248161305795145874
[02:29] <william> i'm a witnes of alurcardni's work in the comunity, in every event he is at there giving suppport answering, solving issues, and never gives up
[02:29] <effie_jayx> alucardni,  what kind of participation do you do for Ubuntu in the spanish community?
[02:29] <fitoria> another pic http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/LinuxTour2008#5194142016866037282
[02:30] <pedro_> fitoria: thanks for the links
[02:30] <alucardni> effie_jayx: I'm part of the CC of the Nicaraguan LoCo Team
[02:30] <effie_jayx> s/spanish community/ spanish-speaking community
[02:30] <effie_jayx> allee,  do you share with other spanish speaking LoCo's or the ubuntu-es community?
[02:31] <alucardni> I've been working on translating the ubuntu package desciption
[02:31] <alucardni> effie_jayx: and as I said before, I've share some experiences with other centralamerican teams
[02:32] <effie_jayx> guatemala, right
[02:32] <effie_jayx> thanks
[02:32] <alucardni> effie_jayx: and salvador
[02:32] <atoponce> alucardni: for me, i'm going to have to say that i would like to see more long term ubuntu-specific contributions. i see lots of general gnu/linux stuff, which is good, but the ubuntu stuff is a but young still
[02:33] <atoponce> keep translating. keep promoting ubuntu. keep holding meetings. keep it documented on your wiki, and come back for reapproval
[02:33] <leogg> atoponce: alucardni is member of the Ubuntu-ni community council - besides the fact that he is one of the founders
[02:34] <leogg> of our LoCo Team
[02:34] <leogg> In my opinion his work is very Ubuntu specific
[02:34] <effie_jayx> leogg, agreed, but the council needs to see more, and maybe we are not seeing enough in what he has brought today
[02:34] <atoponce> it's not documented well, which is what i need to base my vote on. i would like to see more of a sustained contribution
[02:35] <william> i support what leogg says, he's a co-founder, making translations, conferences, giving classes
[02:35] <atoponce> fitoria: you're up
[02:35] <fitoria> ok
[02:36] <fitoria> My name is Adolfo J. Fitoria. I'm from Nicaragua. Joined Ubuntu Nicaragua LoCo in June 2007. I am part of ubuntu-ni Community Council, promoting Ubuntu and FLOSS filosophy in many events and doing some coding too. Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fitoria LP: https://launchpad.net/~aj-fitoria
[02:36] <fitoria> if you want link to more photos just ask
[02:38] <leogg> I want to cheer for Fitoria as well. He's a talented young man who has giving a lot to this community. We're very proud and thankful with Fitoria and I hope to see him becoming a MOTU pretty soon.
[02:38] <vorian> fitoria: what kind of MOTU stuff have you been working on?
[02:39] <fitoria> vorian: by the moment just reading a lot :P
[02:39] <william> i want to add, that fitoria is one of the most active members of LOCO team here, he has promoved many events, as also work in them, becoming one of the leader in the comunnity
[02:39] <fitoria> I'm starting....
[02:39] <vorian> like what?  :)
[02:39] <vorian> oh, excellent
[02:40] <vorian> make sure you come by #ubuntu-motu and ask lots of questions :)
[02:40] <fitoria> great info :)
[02:41] <vorian> fitoria: what's the hardest part of your LoCo?
[02:42] <fitoria> I think that
[02:42] <atoponce> fitoria: have you been involved with ubuntu in other ways? forums maybe?
[02:42] <fitoria> the hardest part is to make new members but new dedicated members
[02:42] <fitoria> atoponce: not in forums just mainling list, irc, personal support
[02:42] <fitoria> in events
[02:43] <vorian> fitoria: yes, the universal LoCo problem.  Any tricks you guys use to help people stay active?
[02:43] <fitoria> installfest, helping people with their issues
[02:43] <fitoria> vorian: constant motivation
[02:43] <fitoria> and to make fun stuff to
[02:43] <fitoria> too*
[02:44] <fitoria> help to share knowledge between us
[02:44] <effie_jayx> fitoria,  one thing we have been discussing is the participation between distro communities in nicaragua
[02:44] <effie_jayx> could you elaborate a bit on it
[02:44] <fitoria> o great
[02:44] <fitoria> here in nicaragua
[02:44] <fitoria> we are very close between distros
[02:44] <fitoria> we work pretty close
[02:45] <fitoria> in big events, helping each other in small events also
[02:45] <fitoria> it really amazing
[02:45] <fitoria> because of ubuntu-ni's effort other lugs have born
[02:46] <fitoria> and they have a pretty strong communitary base too
[02:46] <william> here in Nicaragua there are 5 main distros, Ubuntu, Suse, Debian, Fedora and Mandriva, whoever makes an event, fitoria is there helping in anything he can
[02:47] <bobesponja> william: I think those five distros are the majority in every country =)
[02:47] <atoponce> fitoria: we would also like to see some more long term ubuntu-specific contributions. some ideas for you, might be more translations, and picking up a small motu project, with the help of the motu team
[02:47] <effie_jayx> fitoria, we appreciate the time, the council would like to see you mature you participation in the Ubuntu Community as a whole, promoting in a local team is a good fundation, however we would like to see more work in other areas in the Ubuntu Community as a whole, maybe helping out in the Spanish Speaking community more. we surelly do need the help
[02:48] <effie_jayx> I believe if this were reaproval for the Nicaragua LoCo team you would have no prblem,
[02:48] <atoponce> ok. TiMiDo, you're up
[02:49] <TiMiDo> Hey there my Name is Aaron H Farias Martinez. I'm from Miami Florida. I've work on ubuntu translating perhaps more than a year. as you can see my launchpad on www.launchpad.net/~harddark
[02:49] <TiMiDo> sorry about this I'm just a little bit nervious.
[02:49] <atoponce> np. i was too when i applied. :)
[02:49] <TiMiDo> you can ask many questions if you like.
[02:51] <TiMiDo> and by the way I'm the founder of #Kubuntu-es and i also help there a lot.
[02:51] <atoponce> TiMiDo: when did you start the #kubuntu-es channel?
[02:52] <TiMiDo> atoponce, 1 year, ago
[02:52] <Hobbsee> [13:52] [Notice] -ChanServ- Registered : Jul 17 05:25:57 2007 (1 year, 17 weeks, 5 days, 21:26:28 ago)
[02:52] <atoponce> TiMiDo: anyone from the #kubuntu-us irc team to rally for you?
[02:52] <Hobbsee> atoponce: -es, not -us.
[02:52] <TiMiDo> lol
[02:52] <atoponce> er, yeah. :)
[02:53]  * atoponce blames dvorak
[02:53] <TiMiDo> yeah effie_jayx
[02:54] <krawek> TiMiDo is awesome, that's all
[02:55] <bobesponja> TiMiDo is great
[02:55] <vorian> TiMiDo: what is your favorite part of the ubuntu community?
[02:55] <TiMiDo> thank you bobesponja and thank you so much krawek
[02:55] <vorian> what do you love to do
[02:55] <Hobbsee> TiMiDo: asks me every few months for operator access in #kubuntu, fwiw.
[02:55] <TiMiDo> vor, that is a user friendly interface. and is really easy to explain to users.
[02:55] <vorian> how else have you helped in this fine community
[02:56] <TiMiDo> vorian, actually on my lab all the computers were migrate to UBUNTU
[02:56] <vorian> tell us more about that
[02:56] <effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  I have to ask. why isn't there a Miami LoCo team?
[02:56] <mstreetlinux> saluton
[02:57] <TiMiDo> vorian, well my computers. in the lab they had Windows Xp so i've told my teacher. that i wanted it to see ubuntu on those. and he told me can you prove it to me?
[02:58] <vorian> nice
[02:58] <vorian> so what happened
[02:58] <TiMiDo> so i started it to explain it to my Teacher. and he give me the right permission. to actually put them on the lab and Now we have more than 60 computers with UBUNTU
[02:59] <TiMiDo> effie_jayx, because We are working on it with a few friends. from my Computer Science Class. =)
[02:59] <vorian> TiMiDo: great stuff
[02:59] <TiMiDo> and time wise now we have test. so by december I'll be getting into it =)
[02:59] <vorian> TiMiDo: do you promise _not_ to bother Hobbsee again?
[03:00] <TiMiDo> and making the Miami Loco team =)
[03:00] <TiMiDo> yes i promise vorian sorry about that anyways Hobbsee
[03:00] <effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  how close are you to start it?
[03:01] <vorian> TiMiDo: did you know that it is possible to earn kubuntu membership?
[03:01] <TiMiDo> well i need some work to be done. effie_jayx . and like i said by december I'll have the time. to actually started it =). since I'm getting a 3 weeks vacation.
[03:01] <vorian> since it seems you lean that way anyhow
[03:01] <TiMiDo> vorian, nope
[03:01] <vorian> i suggest you try that route
[03:01] <vorian> in fact, i think there is a kubuntu meeting tomorrow
[03:02] <TiMiDo> vorian, i started it with ubuntu. and then i started it to messed with kubuntu =)
[03:02] <TiMiDo> and i like it. and here i am with ubuntu and kubuntu
[03:02] <vorian> ok
[03:03] <TiMiDo> and hoping that on December I'll get the loco team for Miami
[03:03] <TiMiDo> because i have a lot of friends that are interesting on it.
[03:03] <TiMiDo> and we are planning to do an INSTALL Fest here in FIU.
[03:04] <TiMiDo> just Ubuntu.
[03:04] <vorian> TiMiDo: check with a fella named bordy (/whois bordy) for some help
[03:04] <vorian> on the loco stuff
[03:04] <TiMiDo> okey he's not online right now.
[03:04] <effie_jayx> TiMiDo, I do like your energy, do I do beleive you must work a bit more locally and much more importantly you must integrate your effrts to the ubuntu community.
[03:05] <effie_jayx> I would like to see you back for approval soon
[03:05] <TiMiDo> oh okey
[03:05] <atoponce> TiMiDo: i too would like to see a bit more sustained contributions to the community
[03:05] <pinolillo> fraude!
[03:05] <TiMiDo> atoponce, well if you like you can ask in #ubuntu-es
[03:06] <krawek> pinolillo: +1
[03:06] <vorian> pinolillo: pardon?
[03:06] <william> this sucks
[03:06] <atoponce> TiMiDo: get the loco team started, get some activities and release parties, and get some active membership
[03:06] <mtholdenss> ?
[03:06] <atoponce> TiMiDo: i can help you start the team in #ubuntu-us if you need help
[03:06] <TiMiDo> hmm okey
[03:07] <william> oops, wrong tab
[03:07] <effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  and make sure yout team stays in sync with other communities in the ubuntu LoCo landscape
[03:07] <vorian> william: noted for future reference ;-)
[03:07] <atoponce> musikgoat: you're up
[03:07] <musikgoat> ok
[03:08] <musikgoat> Hi,  so my contributions seem to be short in comparison, but I have been a frequenter of the #ubuntu channel, assisting with answering questions that I know, and providing support for situations that I have direct knowledge (networking and hardware).  I have also assisted with bug reporting, and hope to patch a bug some day :-)
[03:08] <musikgoat> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/musikgoat   &&  https://lauchpad.net/~musikgoat
[03:09] <musikgoat> I have been an activist of ubuntu and linux in school, and have just recently found the chicago loco, and hope to assist nixternal in reviving this loco
[03:10] <vorian> musikgoat: anyone from #ubuntu or chicago LoCo here to speak for ye?
[03:10] <leo_rockw> it's GNU/Linux
[03:10] <mstreetlinux> leo_rockw: ++
[03:11] <atoponce> musikgoat: what two companies did you convert?
[03:11] <vorian> sigh
[03:11] <beuno> sigh+1
[03:11] <leo_rockw> sigh backatcha
[03:12] <atoponce> musikgoat: ?
[03:12] <musikgoat> i haven't converted any companies, but I did get my intro to (gnu/)linux class running on ubuntu rather than redhat, and assisted my teacher and classmates in troubleshooting
[03:13] <atoponce> oh. heh. reading the wrong wiki. :)
[03:13] <musikgoat> vorian: i guess not,  as I've just recently started idling in that channel
[03:14] <musikgoat> and been awaiting a future chicago lug to meet some of the other members
[03:14] <vorian> musikgoat: we are looking for sustained contributions which are visible
[03:14] <musikgoat> i see that, and understand my contributions have not been sustained yet
[03:14] <vorian> again, you are off to a smashing start
[03:15] <atoponce> musikgoat: yes. please continue to work toward contributing to ubuntu. there's much work to be done.
[03:15] <musikgoat> :-)  definately
[03:15] <atoponce> Sajnox: you're up
[03:16] <Sajnox> ok
[03:16] <Sajnox> y name is Miguel Sajnovsky, I'm from Argentina, 33 years and as long as I remember, computers and technology were part of my personality.
[03:16] <Sajnox> Since October '07 I'm a moderator in the Argentina Team subforum and one of the admins of our LoCo Mailing List, and I have to make sure that the CoC and the forum's rules are always observed, I read every post. We are also having a great amount of mails in the mailing list
[03:16] <Sajnox> I have been involved organizing release parties (Hardy and Intrepid), present with the loco team in Install fests, JRSL (Free software conferences). At the latest release pary I gave a talk about Ubuntu, telling to all the pepople what we have been doing, what we are doing and what we plan to do, encouraging them to get envolved in the community and to participate
[03:17] <Sajnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sajnox / https://launchpad.net/~sajnovsky-gmail
[03:17] <beuno> Hi!  I've known Miguel for quite some time now, both in real life and through all the channels we have in our LoCo (IRC, mailing lists, forums), and I can only say good things about him. He's been key in moderating the tremendous traffic we have, explaining and enforcing the Code of Conduct where appropriate, and is has organized quite a few succesful events.
[03:17] <beuno> He's also been extremely in helping many new-commers blend into the community of Ubuntu Argentina and help them through the initial pains.
[03:17] <beuno> Personally, I'd be thrilled to see him on board as an Ubuntu member after all the hours of consistent dedication and patience he's put in.
[03:17] <beuno> (thank god for tomboy)
[03:17] <vorian> yay!
[03:18] <marianom> Hi My name is Mariano Mara: I'm ubuntu member since sep-06 and Argentina's loco team contact. I'm here to support Miguel (Sajnox) who has been doing an incredible job in the Argentina Loco Team. Since the day he join us, he was eager to learn and help others. He was -and still is- the driven force behind a lot of things in the group, not only particular events but always trying to find how to make things work within the group and encourag
[03:18] <vorian> thanks beuno
[03:18] <atoponce> wow. thx beuno and marianom!
[03:18] <marianom> tomboy +1!!!
[03:18] <vor> I'd like to give a big cheers for sajnox.  To reinforce what I wrote on his wiki, he really is the heart of the Buenos Aires Ubuntu community.  We have one of the best (and biggest) Ubuntu communities in the world here and it wouldn't be so without sajnox.
[03:18] <vorian> thanks marianom
[03:18] <vorian> grrr vor
[03:18] <vorian> :P
[03:18] <beuno> half a vorian!
[03:18] <marianom> :)
[03:18] <beuno> he should get half a vote  :)
[03:19] <vorian> hehe
[03:19] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, any participation in spanish speaing comminity as whole?
[03:19] <Sajnox> to be honest, no
[03:20] <effie_jayx> speaking
[03:20] <MTecknology> hey... i thought meeting was tomorrow
[03:20] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, shame, we do need it
[03:20] <Sajnox> my studies are not IT related
[03:20] <Sajnox> and, the forums and the mailing list
[03:20] <Sajnox> takes alot of time
[03:20] <Sajnox> to read all
[03:20] <vorian> Sajnox: nice work on the website
[03:21] <Sajnox> organizing the events, and the web
[03:21] <Sajnox> thanks !!
[03:21] <Sajnox> I dedicate a lot of my free time to ubuntu
[03:21] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, I ment more causal help with support in the spanish speaking community, maybe exchanging emails with some experience
[03:21] <Sajnox> I'm focused in the Argentinean team
[03:21] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, ohh I see
[03:22] <Sajnox> I'm always at the forums, and in the mailing list
[03:22] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, and you are an official member of the Argentinian team, right?
[03:22] <vorian> haha. nice picture with mad dog
[03:23] <Sajnox> but, I see your point, and I ill be glad to extend our participation to our spanish speaking forums
[03:23] <Sajnox> thanks, he was really nice with us
[03:23] <Sajnox> considering that we are so many people
[03:23] <vorian> he is a really cool guy
[03:23] <Sajnox> it will be easy to encourage the guys to get envolved in other spanish speaking forums
[03:24] <effie_jayx> Sajnox, I believe you have good peole backing your membership, beuno  is probably the best mentor anyone can have
[03:24] <Sajnox> I know
[03:24] <Sajnox> and I'm proud of having his support
[03:24] <vorian> I think you are fab fab fab! +1 from me :)
[03:24] <effie_jayx> Sajnox,  however we need people like you in the general spanish-speaing community. I am very keen on seeing people integrate efforts
[03:27] <effie_jayx> Sajnox,  I would like to see you participate in the Ubuntu Community  at large, and I am sure beuno  can help you there. beuno  has gone to become one of the key participants in the bazzar developments and I still remember the videos of his talks in lug meetings. please do follow his mentorship and it will lead to Ubuntu Membership in the near future
[03:27] <effie_jayx> for the time being I will ask you to come back again soon
[03:27] <vorian> whoops
[03:29] <effie_jayx> so I say -1
[03:29] <beuno> so that's a +1 and a -1?
[03:29] <effie_jayx> Council
[03:29] <effie_jayx> ?
[03:30] <effie_jayx> that's a "please come back again" -1
[03:30]  * beuno tries to tilt irc towards more +1's, and a compromise to expand to other LoCos
[03:30] <pedro_> a +1 from me, i really like his loco work, and Sajnox if you need help running those bug jams just ping me ;-)
[03:31] <effie_jayx> the count is vorian +1, effie_jayx -1, pedro_ +1
[03:31] <effie_jayx> pleia2, ? cody-somerville ?
[03:31] <atoponce> i'm going to give a +1. i like the activity on the mailing list, and the activity on the forums.
[03:31] <pleia2> great activity in the forums and I like the loco work +1
[03:31] <effie_jayx> ok
[03:32] <effie_jayx> Sajnox,  welcome then, ;)
[03:32] <unimix> Congratulations Sajnox !!
[03:32] <pleia2> welcome Sajnox :)
[03:32] <Sajnox> thanks to all guys
[03:32]  * beuno cheers for Sajnox 
[03:32] <vorian> Sajnox: congrats!
[03:32] <leogg> Sajnox: congrats
[03:32] <Sajnox> and will take seriously effie_jayx recomendations
[03:32]  * marianom congrats Sajnox, he really deserves it!!
[03:32] <atoponce> Sajnox: welocme aboard!
[03:32] <vor> Congrats Sajnox
[03:32] <Sajnox> thanks to all of you guys !!!
[03:32] <unimix> Great Sajnox !! You deserves it, man !!
[03:32] <pedro_> congrats Sajnox, welcome!
[03:33] <musikgoat> congrats Sajnox
[03:33] <leo_rockw> Sajnox: :D
[03:33] <atoponce> MTecknology: you're next
[03:33] <MTecknology> hurray
[03:33]  * MTecknology is nervous like his first kiss
[03:33] <vorian> :o
[03:33] <vorian> MTecknology: please tell us about yourself, and give some good links
[03:34] <MTecknology> obviously https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MTecknology
[03:35] <atoponce> MTecknology: do you have a summary/introduction?
[03:35] <MTecknology> not intro
[03:35] <MTecknology> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MTecknology#Summary
[03:35] <pleia2> MTecknology: he means, and in channel introduction :)
[03:36] <pleia2> s/and/an
[03:36] <effie_jayx> MTecknology,  please do give us a mitunte to read your wiki then
[03:36] <atoponce> MTecknology: i noticed that you say one your wiki that you've converted two companies. which ones?
[03:37] <MTecknology> Secure Banking Solutions (got 3/5 of their servers) and Arne's Computer and Paintball (3/3 servers)
[03:37] <MTecknology> in channel: I've been spending a lot of time with the SD LoCo recently and have taken over the entire thing. I've also been on IRC for a few years and spent almost all of my time in #ubuntu channels.
[03:38] <MTecknology> Sorry for the long Wiki, I've noticed that it's longer than most others.
[03:39] <pedro_> MTecknology: in the wiki said that you're a bugsquad member, in your opinion, what's the most difficult part of working with bug reports in Ubuntu?
[03:39] <MTecknology> pedro_: When somebody files a bug and forgets about it. It gets to be a pain to distinguish bugs that exist from those that don't.
[03:40] <MTecknology> That's where I built most of my karma from. Just trying to invalidate bugs that are expired and forgotten.
[03:41] <effie_jayx> great bug work
[03:41] <MTecknology> thanks :)
[03:42] <MTecknology> Actually, I'm working on that Secure VPN Ubuntu installation now. I was hoping to finish it by the end of the month.
[03:42] <atoponce> MTecknology: what is your main focus with ubuntu contributions?
[03:43] <MTecknology> The last 2 months have been with the SD LoCo
[03:43] <atoponce> what about prior to that?
[03:44] <effie_jayx> MTecknology,  any testimonials you could refer us to?
[03:44] <MTecknology> prior to that it was handling bugs. Most of the bugs I was working on pertaining to hardware are fixed now. It's hard to work on hardware bugs that I can't test and try to patch up.
[03:45] <musikgoat> I have to put in my input that he is an avid supporter in the irc, and is very knowledgeful and energetic when it comes to walking people through troubleshooting
[03:45] <atoponce> MTecknology: have you done any wiki submissions or forums work?
[03:45] <MTecknology> I don't have any testimonials, I was trying to find a few people that could say something. I know stdin, nalioth, and maybe LjL could say something useful but I haven't been able to get a hold of them.
[03:45] <MTecknology> atoponce: I pretty much completely rebuilt the SD LoCo Wiki
[03:46]  * Hobbsee coudl say he's a routine part of #ubuntu-offtopic
[03:46] <effie_jayx> Hobbsee, define routine part"
[03:46] <Hobbsee> effie_jayx: "one who is often there and talking"?
[03:47] <MTecknology> atoponce: I also created a website for our LoCo. I created it to try to tie everything the LoCo offers together
[03:47] <MTecknology> hrm..
[03:48] <effie_jayx> 2ok
[03:48] <effie_jayx> let us vote Council
[03:48] <MTecknology> This might help some - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-sd/
[03:48] <MTecknology> err - too late
[03:49] <atoponce> MTecknology: i like the bug work, but i want to see more. what would be really impressive (the deal breaker for me), is if you could get the sd team up and running, active, and stable
[03:49] <effie_jayx> pleia2, cody-somerville vorian ?
[03:49] <effie_jayx> pedro_, ?
[03:49] <atoponce> of course, you've been in #ubuntu-us, so you know where to find us if you need help on that
[03:50] <MTecknology> I guess I've dabbled in a lot of different parts of the community and it's just in the past couple months that it became my focus. My goal is the bring the team to a point where I don't need to do anything to have it running by itself.
[03:50] <pleia2> MTecknology: I'd like to see more prosperous LoCo developments as well :) great bug work though, hope you keep that up as well
[03:50] <effie_jayx> I say +1 for his bug work which is impressive and his small references from key members like Hobbsee
[03:50] <effie_jayx> which can demonstrate your constant effort to improve
[03:50] <atoponce> vorian: ?
[03:51] <effie_jayx> pedro_, ?
[03:51] <atoponce> cody-somerville: ?
[03:51] <atoponce> (the lost one :) )
[03:51] <MTecknology> Hobbsee: any chance you could put something on my Wiki for me after this? I'll see who else has something to say
[03:51]  * beuno wonders why some get commas and some get semi-colons
[03:51] <pedro_> MTecknology: I'd like to see a bit more of bug work, like becoming a member of the bug control team, but you're going in the right way, keep the good work there
[03:52] <effie_jayx> beuno, xchat settings ;)
[03:52] <MTecknology> beuno: At least it's not as bad as those that use unicode nick completes
[03:52] <atoponce> xchat, irssi, kopete, pidgin... they all do it one way or another.
[03:52] <effie_jayx> ok
[03:52] <effie_jayx> so recap
[03:53] <MTecknology> *cough*dmsuperman*cough*
[03:53] <MTecknology> effie_jayx: looks like an overall -1?
[03:53] <effie_jayx> atoponce, -1 pedro_ -1, pleia2 -1, effie_jayx +1
[03:53] <effie_jayx> vorian, ?
[03:53] <MTecknology> well
[03:54] <MTecknology> If I keep working on bugs and make it into bug control, and if I get my LoCo running smoothly?
[03:54] <pleia2> MTecknology: you're on the right track :) you've been working hard lately and that's fantastic
[03:54] <atoponce> MTecknology: that would seal the deal
[03:54] <MTecknology> pleia2: It's hard since I work 0200 - 1000 on the weekends now
[03:55] <MTecknology> atoponce: how far should the LoCo be before I reapply?
[03:55] <effie_jayx> MTecknology,  please do try again, your bug work is fantastic, please make sure the LoCo team does rock solid for the ood of all the South Dakota Ubunteros
[03:55] <MTecknology> so - to a point that if I die, the team lives on
[03:56] <pleia2> MTecknology: maybe have a few events you helped coordinate under your belt? also more activity would be good, you're certainly a driving force right now but it'd be nice to see a few more active people
[03:56] <pleia2> MTecknology: right!
[03:56] <atoponce> MTecknology: tough to say. each team is different. some are active on the mailing list, others forums, other launchpad, others in person. just depends on the dynamic of your team
[03:56] <MTecknology> this is a sparse state - person to person is hard
[03:56] <atoponce> exactly. so you can empower the teamm in other ways
[03:56] <MTecknology> the road maps on the teams wiki are basically what I'm shooting for at the point
[03:57] <MTecknology> It hurts to be hoping for 10 active members in a few months - but - we all gotta start somewhere
[03:57] <pleia2> setting goals is good :)
[03:57] <MTecknology> anyway - I guess I've never been here before so it's at least nice to know what I need to shoot for.
[03:58] <atoponce> well, i want to thank everyone who showed up tonight. congratulations to those who made it. for those who didn't, PLEASE DON'T GET DISCOURAGED! we need your help. wee need your enthusiasm. we need your support
[03:58] <atoponce> keep plugging along, and we'll make ubuntu the best distro out there
[03:58] <MTecknology> Is that what I need to do to get all votes +1, I want a 100% vote when I come in. :)
[03:59] <atoponce> MTecknology: you just need a majority from the quorum with at least 3
[03:59] <MTecknology> atoponce: I know, but I wanna come roaring in next time. :)
[04:00] <atoponce> do it!
[04:00] <MTecknology> alrighty, I'll focus on those two areas
[04:00] <elkan76> MKTecknology: If i can debbug as you can do it.... uffff.. you work very good.
[04:00] <MTecknology> elkan76: wanna say that on my wiki?
[04:01] <MTecknology> :)
[04:02] <beuno> atoponce, effie_jayx, vorian, pedro_, awesome meeting, thanks  :)
[04:02]  * atoponce nods
[04:05] <Elidix> hmph.
[04:07] <juan--d-_-b> o_O
[04:07] <elkan76> Well this is a happy day for me but i'm so tired too, it's time to go to sleep.
[04:07] <elkan76> See ya everybody!!
[10:59] <dholbach> hello everybody
[10:59] <dholbach> Technoviking: are you up already? :)
[11:00]  * cody-somerville is here.
[11:00] <dholbach> burgundavia is not up yet/not on IRC, I pinged mako and sabdfl
[11:02] <amachu> Hi
[11:02] <dholbach> hi amachu
[11:02] <dholbach> let's wait another 5 minutes - I just pinged a few CC folks
[11:03] <amachu> ok..
[11:09] <elkbuntu> he jinxed himself. he was just saying his connection is flaky.
[11:09] <elkbuntu> :-/
[11:10]  * elkbuntu ties amachu to the /names list.
[11:12] <elkbuntu> good $timeofday, sabdfl.
[11:12] <dholbach> hi sabdfl
[11:12] <sabdfl> howdy elkbuntu and friends
[11:12] <amachu> Hi sabfdl
[11:12] <sabdfl> apologies for my lateness
[11:12] <dholbach> sabdfl: seems like we're the only ones here today
[11:13] <dholbach> we have two agenda items on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[11:13] <dholbach> first one would be a quick update on bug
[11:13] <dholbach> err... bug 272826
[11:13] <sabdfl> I'm +1 on eliminating the phrase from LP
[11:14] <sabdfl> in favour of "This person has signed the Code of Conduct"
[11:14] <dholbach> yeah, that was the concensus
[11:14] <sabdfl> i'm also +1 on generalising the code of conduct so that it can apply unchanged to other projects too
[11:14] <dholbach> yes, it's great to have that resolved :)
[11:14] <sabdfl> did mdke want anything further from the discussion?
[11:15] <dholbach> no, he moved the CoC to a bzr branch, so the work on generalising it can begin
[11:15] <dholbach> I just think it's good to have the decision in the public too :)
[11:16] <dholbach> the second item is amachu's: the Asia Oceania RMB seems to be short on members
[11:16] <sabdfl> what's the bzr branch URL for the coc?
[11:16] <amachu> dholbach: yes
[11:16] <dholbach> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania shows 7 direct members
[11:16] <dholbach> sabdfl: hang on
[11:17] <sabdfl> come back amachu!
[11:17] <elkbuntu> i'll be leading the discussion from the RMB side if amachu drops, as amachu's connection is a little touchy..... as so.
[11:17] <Tm_T> elkbuntu: saving angel you are for him
[11:17] <elkbuntu> he's in a relatively remote area today, his connection is excusably poor.
[11:17] <dholbach> sabdfl: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct
[11:18] <sabdfl> go ahead elkbuntu
[11:18] <Tm_T> amachu: welcome back
[11:18] <sabdfl> or amachu
[11:20]  * elkbuntu gives amachu a chance to speak first...
[11:20] <amachu> Hi, Based on our experience we decided to have two two more members on board
[11:20] <amachu> the experience that we had over the past few months
[11:20] <sabdfl> wow, we have three north-american folks in the asia-pac regional board
[11:21] <sabdfl> and three eu too
[11:21] <amachu> 1) We meet the necessary quorom to conduct the meeting
[11:21] <amachu> but thats all
[11:21] <elkbuntu> sabdfl, we have had nothing but non-asia-pacific for a while
[11:21] <sabdfl> elkbuntu: in terms of requests for consideration?
[11:22] <dholbach> hm? who's north american? and who's european?
[11:22] <amachu> the geographic area asia oceania covers is large, not all members are convenient with..
[11:22] <elkbuntu> yes, although we did actually get one from perth, but most have been -eu based lately
[11:23] <amachu> elkbuntu: I will wait. please proceed.
[11:23] <elkbuntu> yes, 5pm in india is like midnight for NZ. evening is a very abstract term for us.
[11:23] <elkbuntu> while we're getting the -eu people, and that's great.. we worry that it's at the cost of our own regions
[11:24] <sabdfl> i agree
[11:24] <sabdfl> we do have an EMEA board, right?
[11:25] <elkbuntu> yes.
[11:25] <Tm_T> I wouldn't mind having 1 or 2 from -eu I guess, but majority should be "local" if possible
[11:25] <sabdfl> i agree that it makes little sense to have an asiapac board that include north-am and eu folks, and hears requests from the eu on a regular basis
[11:26] <elkbuntu> and our board fits them well given that the earliest we can have it is is around 5pm India time, perfect for -eu student types
[11:26] <sabdfl> i think having some overlap is wonderful, both from the board membership point of view (consistency) and from the requestor's perspective (flexibility on timing of meetings)
[11:26] <Tm_T> sabdfl: agreed on that
[11:26] <elkbuntu> what we're proposing is to have a few extra people, and alternate times.
[11:26] <sabdfl> in other words, if the asiapac board meets at a time that suits asiapac, and it so happens that someone from the EU finds that time better for them, then they can be considered there and then
[11:26] <sabdfl> this is an easy +1 from me!
[11:27] <sabdfl> do you have candidates for nomination?
[11:27] <elkbuntu> i dont believe so. I certainly dont, and australia is already well represented
[11:27] <Tm_T> elkbuntu: Jucato?
[11:27] <elkbuntu> i believe persia and amachu are more likely to have ideas
[11:28] <persia> I'd like to see one more from west asia, and one more from central, to help keep balance between east (09:00 UTC) and west (15:00 UTC).  I don't have specific candidates.
[11:28] <sabdfl> i could quite happily grow the board by 2-4 members
[11:28] <sabdfl> to give you flexibility
[11:28] <dholbach> if we'd follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation you could think about it and send nominations to the CC list
[11:28] <sabdfl> so, all we need are some good candidates
[11:28] <amachu> yes. That would help even the number number of board members present at the meeting
[11:29] <sabdfl> in an ideal world, i'd like to try a runoff election, where the CC nominates 6 folks for a contest for 4 places, for example
[11:29] <sabdfl> or 4 for 2
[11:29] <dholbach> I'm happy with that too
[11:29] <sabdfl> do you guys think you can look at the forums, irc, mailing lists and other parts fo the community and find 4-6 candidates?
[11:29]  * Tm_T goes to see her baby back to hospital, see you around ->
[11:30] <amachu> sabdfl: that should be possible
[11:30] <persia> It may well be 6 for 4, as a couple of our members haven't attended in a while, and have been relatively unresponsive to pings, but for a total size of 9ish.
[11:30] <sabdfl> cheers Tm_T, hope it's all ok
[11:30] <sabdfl> persia: that's fine by me!
[11:30] <Tm_T> sabdfl: she is, just had born 2 days ago (:
[11:30] <elkbuntu> sabdfl, freshly baked :)
[11:30] <Tm_T> but gone really ->>>
[11:30] <sabdfl> i think you'll find it gets better if you have a consistent time that's generally sane for folks in a region
[11:30] <dholbach> Tm_T: congratulations :-)
[11:31] <sabdfl> Tm_T: that's a very direct approach to growing the community you're taking there
[11:31] <sabdfl> ;-)
[11:31] <dholbach> hehe
[11:31] <amachu> ;-)
[11:32] <amachu> sabfdl: thanks for agreeing to increase the Board's strength
[11:32] <sabdfl> sigh. back in the day, when dictators were less benevolent... http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2003/08/08/917468.htm?site=science/greatmomentsinscience
[11:32] <sabdfl> ok, amachu, persia, elkbuntu, thanks
[11:32] <dholbach> ok... that's settled then - CC waits for nominations and we can set up the polls soon
[11:32] <sabdfl> is that a wrap?
[11:33] <amachu> persia: elkbuntu : what do you think on getting candiates from irc logs etc.,
[11:33] <elkbuntu> sabdfl, dont go getting any ideas! No pony for you.
[11:33] <dholbach> I'd say so... any other business?
[11:33] <cody-somerville> I have a quick question.
[11:33] <sabdfl> i'm crap with a sword anyhow
[11:33] <sabdfl> go ahead cody-somerville
[11:33] <cody-somerville> I was wondering if there was any news about the IRC Council's call for nominations and sabdfl's call for nominations for the tech board.
[11:34] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: ++
[11:34] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: i've been vaguely watching for that, and have heard nothing.
[11:34] <sabdfl> we have two good candidates for the TB
[11:34] <sabdfl> i have been holding out for more, for a runoff
[11:34] <sabdfl> but at this stage, perhaps we should just move forward with confirmation votes for those two?
[11:35] <elkbuntu> sabdfl, the masses might like the teaser
[11:35] <sabdfl> i agree, a runoff would be more fun, and both of the candidates we have are OK to be part of that
[11:35] <sabdfl> i wanted to make sure we would not lose great candidates if we asked them to go through a runoff
[11:36] <sabdfl> but both said +1
[11:36] <sabdfl> they just don't have any competition :-)
[11:36] <elkbuntu> yeah, i can see why they voted +1 now :P
[11:36] <sabdfl> well, they didn't know that they wouldn't have competition
[11:36] <elkbuntu> fair point.
[11:37] <elkbuntu> i guess they do now.
[11:37] <sabdfl> indeed
[11:37] <sabdfl> on the IRC council front, i need to do the work and vote
[11:37] <sabdfl> others have already voted
[11:37] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, may i borrow your stick, please? :)
[11:37] <dholbach> I'll go and chase up whoever else is missing.
[11:37] <dholbach> any other business?
[11:38] <dholbach> if not, I'll write up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/TeamReport any minute
[11:38] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: sure!
[11:38]  * Hobbsee hands elkbuntu the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!™
[11:38] <elkbuntu> Eeeeexcellent.
[11:38] <cody-somerville> I think NickAli wanted to bring up an issue in coordinating with the IRC Team (or whoever is responsible for the channel bot) regarding the calendar integration.
[11:39] <persia> It mostly needs a coder assigned to build the Google Calendar parser.
[11:39] <cody-somerville> Google Calendar exports ical
[11:39] <cody-somerville> Thats what we're exporting now
[11:39] <persia> Yes, but the ical module in supybot can't parse it.
[11:40] <persia> Or rather, can't parse repeating items.
[11:40] <dholbach> Ok, sounds like there's nothing for the CC to do here. :-)
[11:40] <elkbuntu> dholbach, except continue rocking on, of course.
[11:40] <dholbach> Thanks a lot everybody. Thanks sabdfl.
[11:40] <dholbach> elkbuntu: ROCK ON :)
[11:41]  * elkbuntu ^5's dholbach
[11:41] <amachu> dholbach, sabfdl: Thank you
[11:41] <dholbach> :-)
[11:41] <sabdfl> thanks all!
[11:41] <sabdfl> see y'all soon
[11:41] <sabdfl> thanks dholbach!
[11:42] <amachu> persia, elkbuntu : thank you
[11:42] <amachu> i will brief the mailing list
[11:56] <Technoviking> morning
[12:00]  * persia ponders the nature of noon, UTC.
[14:29] <jjesse> @schedule Detroit
[14:57] <mdz> Keybuk: looks like tech board still isn't on the fridge calendar?
[14:57] <mdz> Keybuk: do you remember who was looking into that for us?
[14:57] <Keybuk> not off hand
[14:57] <Keybuk> it probably fell off again
[14:57] <Keybuk> the fridge calendar doesn't do repeating events
[14:57] <Keybuk> and nobody's ever fixed that
[15:00] <mdz> Keybuk: it seems hard to believe that other teams are adding their weekly meeting week after week
[15:00] <mdz> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is mdz.
[15:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:00] <mdz> this is the technical board meeting for 2008-11-18
[15:00] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[15:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[15:01] <Keybuk> mdz: the desktop meeting has fallen off again
[15:01] <mdz> this is the first tech board meeting since I went away on holiday
[15:01] <Keybuk> and I was very mean to them the last time they did that
[15:01] <mdz> did one happen while I was away?
[15:01] <Keybuk> one did not happen two weeks ago
[15:01] <cjwatson> mdz: generally what happens when I ask them is that they add it for four weeks, just long enough for me to forget that another ping will be needed
[15:02] <mdz> ok, so since the last meeting, we had a conference call with the MOTU council about upload ACLs and related issues
[15:02] <mdz> we talked about a lot of different things, but didn't come to a clear resolution on very much
[15:03] <mdz> there was recognition all around that ArchiveReorganisation will impact these things a great deal
[15:03] <mdz> dholbach and I took a few notes, but haven't managed to turn those into anything presentable yet
[15:04] <mdz> we did not, so far as I noticed, actually come to a decision on any of the outstanding requests for upload ACLs
[15:04] <mdz> Keybuk: do you have a different record?
[15:05] <Keybuk> I don't recall a decision being taken
[15:06] <mdz> ok
[15:06] <mdz> [topic] # Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
[15:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  # Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
[15:07] <mdz> I thought that Stephane was already a MOTU, but he wasn't yet
[15:07] <persia> stgraber has since applied to MOTU, but has yet to receive comments from half of his primary sponsors.
[15:07] <mdz> I can see that he has officially applied now
[15:07] <Keybuk> since there is a pending request for him to join MOTU, I would prefer for that to be resolved first
[15:07] <mdz> I would prefer to defer a techboard decision on this until his application has been evaluated
[15:07] <mdz> ok, agreed then
[15:07] <jjesse> join #ubuntu-server
[15:07] <mdz> [topic] Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
[15:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
[15:08] <persia> Note that in his application he states he is doing so precisely because he interpreted the last TB decision to be a request he apply to MOTU.
[15:08] <MTecknology> server team is in one hour, right?
[15:08] <mdz> persia: understood, please keep us informed
[15:08] <Keybuk> mdz: in summary, whether to enable the h261 and h263 codecs?
[15:09] <mdz> persia: I know this is a troublesome corner case at the moment with regard to the process, since his focus is on a package in main, but we would appreciate your help in doing the right thing
[15:09] <cjwatson> I believe I sent mail a while back indicating I felt H.261 was OK but H.263 probably needed a legal opinion
[15:09] <mdz> Keybuk: siretart raised the general question of how we should decide what is or is not OK to ship in terms of codecs
[15:10] <mdz> which may or may not be claimed to infringe patents in some countries
[15:10] <mdz> they responded with:
[15:10] <mdz> Our general policy should be that if we have some reason to believe that a
[15:10] <mdz> particular component is likely to infringe a particular company's patent,
[15:10] <mdz> we shouldn't distribute that component.
[15:10] <mdz> By "likely to infringe" we mean either: (1) a patent holder has claimed
[15:10] <mdz> that we're infringing, (2) a patent holder is suing someone else for
[15:10] <mdz> distributing the applicable technology, or (3) a patent holder is actively
[15:11] <mdz> licensing the applicable technology.
[15:11] <mdz> Outside that definition are (1) third party speculation of infringement
[15:11] <mdz> (e.g. community message boards), (2) general, non-targeted claims of
[15:11] <mdz> infringement (e.g. a patent holder claiming infringement through the
[15:11] <mdz> media, without stating which technology infringes).
[15:11] <mdz> Disabling the potentially infringing technology is enough so long as we
[15:11] <mdz> are not enabling infringement by end users (e.g. making it possible to
[15:11] <mdz> re-enable).  Removing the potentially infringing technology would be
[15:11] <mdz> better.
[15:11] <Keybuk> that sounds like a reasonable summary of our traditional position?
[15:12] <mdz> I think it's a good deal more rigorous in its definition
[15:12] <Keybuk> agreed. however it doesn't change the position, no?
[15:12] <mdz> in any case, I've only just now passed that back to technical-board@ for comment
[15:12] <cjwatson> I agree it's more rigorous, but I think it makes sense
[15:12] <cjwatson> and is unproblematic w.r.t. suddenly having to do lots of things differently, or whatever
[15:12] <mdz> the last bit means that disabling a feature at compile-time is sufficient
[15:13] <mdz> if it is likely to infringe
[15:13] <Keybuk> though (3), SCO, meh :p
[15:13] <cjwatson> I think cases where the court has struck something down wouldn't need to count ;-)
[15:13] <cjwatson> (since that means they aren't the patent holder ...)
[15:14] <mdz> I think this is a reasonable starting point
[15:14] <mdz> and it leads us to a set of specific questions for each codec that siretart inquired about
[15:14] <mdz> these aren't necessarily trivial to answer, but at least don't require an exhaustive patent search
[15:15] <mdz> anyway, this is in email for comment, and I'll follow up with siretart
[15:16] <mdz> [topic] other business
[15:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  other business
[15:16] <mdz> any other business?
[15:17] <Keybuk> none
[15:17] <Keybuk> I'll be unable to attend the next meeting
[15:18] <mdz> as will I
[15:18] <mdz> #endmeeting
[15:18] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:18.
[15:18] <persia> Keybuk, Desktop team didn't fall off: it was scheduled for a different room due to a conflict, and by request.
[15:19] <persia> mdz, Yes, the schedule has to be manually updated every time.  The bot doesn't understand the way Google presents recurrance, and the version of drupal on fridge.ubuntu.com cannot handle recurrance.
[15:20] <Keybuk> persia: ah, do meetings in other channels not go onto the fridge schedule?
[15:20] <persia> The bot isn't smart enough to differentiate channels.
[15:20] <persia> The code is available.  If you, or someone you know, knows python, and wants to hack it :)
[15:20] <Keybuk> :)
[15:22] <persia> liw took a look a few weeks ago, and said it wasn't a trivial thing to process Google iCal.  I think this is the main focus of the bot dev team now, so per-channel is likely to be further deferred.
[15:50] <MTecknology> heh - is the bot 10 minutes ahead of me?
[15:52] <persia> The bot tries to give each meeting 10-15 minutes leeway, when they aren't back-to-back
[15:53] <MTecknology> oh
[15:55] <jjesse> yay i finally remembered to attend a server team meting
[15:57] <nijaba> o/
[15:58] <zul> hello
[15:58] <MTecknology> hi
[15:58] <sommer> yo
[15:58] <Koon> \o
[15:59] <kirkland> o/
[15:59]  * mathiaz waves
[16:00] <mathiaz> hello everyone and welcome to another server team meeting
[16:00] <mathiaz> let's get this started!
[16:00] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <zul> as the world turns
[16:01] <Koon> yay
[16:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:01] <soren> o/
[16:01] <mathiaz> anyone that wants to add a point, let me know
[16:02] <mathiaz> Last meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081111
[16:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
[16:02] <mathiaz> nijaba: sommer: how is this going?
[16:02] <sommer> more updates... I think just the new questions need adding
[16:03]  * kirkland is, again, delinquent on his server FAQ update :-/
[16:03]  * nijaba has been buried...
[16:03]  * mathiaz will update the roadmap too
[16:03] <mathiaz> sommer: great.
[16:03] <mathiaz> sommer: I thought nijaba had added a list of new questions?
[16:04] <mathiaz> sommer: are there other questions you thought about?
[16:04] <sommer> mathiaz: yes, they just need to be answered :)
[16:04] <nijaba> I think sommer says that the new questions now needs answers
[16:04] <mathiaz> oh - ok.
[16:04] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
[16:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
[16:05] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID related questions
[16:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID related questions
[16:05] <mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: anything else?
[16:05] <kirkland> yup
[16:05] <nijaba> nope
[16:05] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Get rid of old libdb versions
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Get rid of old libdb versions
[16:05] <sommer> mathiaz: don't think so
[16:05] <mathiaz> zul: ^^?
[16:05] <zul> mathiaz: roadmap has been updated
[16:06] <mathiaz> zul: I think you've gone through the list
[16:06] <zul> the ones there have to be updated
[16:06] <mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: thanks for updating the FAQ
[16:06] <mathiaz> zul: ok - great.
[16:07] <sommer> mathiaz: np
[16:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
[16:08] <mathiaz> sommer: how is the spec going on?
[16:08] <jjesse> sommer: i can help out with the server guide again
[16:08] <sommer> mathiaz: it's started, and I created a blueprint as well
[16:08] <jjesse> sommer: do you have a link for the spec so i can subscribe?
[16:08] <sommer> jjesse: that'd be awesome :)
[16:08] <sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide
[16:09] <jjesse> subscribed
[16:10] <sommer> if there are any other sections that anyone can think of feel free to add them, to the spec or the idea pool
[16:10] <mathiaz> sommer: looks promising.
[16:10] <mathiaz> sommer: spliting in its own package -> may be worth looking into a bzr branch
[16:11] <mathiaz> sommer: but that may require some coordination with the documentation team regarding the tool chain to build the documentation.
[16:12] <sommer> mathiaz: sure, I can contact mdke about it
[16:12] <sommer> or anyone else who's familiar with the process :)
[16:12] <mathiaz> sommer: what's the rationale to split the server guide into its own package?
[16:12] <jjesse> sommer: nixternal would be familiar with it as well and oculd help out, he builds the kubuntu-docs package
[16:12] <mathiaz> sommer: I guess by package you meant source package
[16:13] <mathiaz> sommer: as it already has its own binary package
[16:13] <sommer> mathiaz: ya, wasn't it discussed for intrepid... to ease contribution
[16:14] <mathiaz> sommer: exact.
[16:14] <mathiaz> sommer: but the bzr branch for the ubuntu-doc team was trimmed down during the intrepid release cycle.
[16:14] <mathiaz> sommer: it's faster to create a branch now.
[16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: anyhow, I'll ask the doc team about it.
[16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: I'd come up with a reason for the source package split.
[16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: there may be good reason to keep it in the ubuntu-doc package.
[16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: I'm thinking about translations.
[16:16] <sommer> mathiaz: sounds good to me
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: but I'm not too familiar with this process.
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: could you start a dicussion on the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
[16:16] <sommer> mathiaz: sure
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: awesome. Thanks!
[16:17] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to start a disucssion with the documentation team about creating a separate source package and bzr branch for the server guide
[16:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to start a disucssion with the documentation team about creating a separate source package and bzr branch for the server guide
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: anything else related to documentation?
[16:17] <sommer> mathiaz: I think that's it
[16:18] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges and init script
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Merges and init script
[16:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: ^^
[16:18] <kirkland> yep
[16:18] <kirkland> i still need to update that wiki page
[16:18] <kirkland> i'll do that this week
[16:18] <kirkland> with the current state of Jaunty init/status scripts
[16:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
[16:18] <kirkland> cheers to Koon who's adding them in his package merges
[16:19] <kirkland> \o/
[16:19] <Koon> \o/
[16:19] <kirkland> that's all i have
[16:19] <mathiaz> great. Let's move on.
[16:19] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server survey
[16:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server survey
[16:19] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^?
[16:19] <Koon> mergers should also push TearDown where appropriate
[16:20] <mathiaz> Koon: by push you mean that the TearDown changes should be send to Debian?
[16:20] <nijaba> mathiaz: I have made an extract of the data.  I now need to remove all private info from it
[16:20] <mathiaz> nijaba: cool. What the final stats?
[16:20] <mathiaz> nijaba: cool. What are the final stats?
[16:20] <nijaba> Some people within Canonical think we should let the survey run a couple more month
[16:20] <Koon> no, I meant implement TearDown spec in the merge if it's not done yet -- if you do it, then you should also push it to Debian.
[16:20] <MTecknology> nijaba: where's the survey at?
[16:21] <nijaba> they want to adwvertise it on u.c home page
[16:21] <nijaba> MTecknology: to take it?  survey.ubuntu.com
[16:21] <mathiaz> Koon: so Debian accepted the technical implementation of the TearDown spec?
[16:21] <MTecknology> crap... i forgot how to do math :P
[16:22] <mathiaz> nijaba: once you've got the anonymized data, what's the process to get access to it?
[16:22] <Koon> mathiaz: james_w discussed it on debian-devel, without any real opposition
[16:22] <nijaba> stat are 6844 responses for this survey (4144 full responses, 2700 responses not completely filled out)
[16:23] <mathiaz> nijaba: once you've got the anonymized data, what's the process to get access to it?
[16:24] <nijaba> mathiaz: I think I'll just put the csv in bzr
[16:24] <nijaba> as I did for the question
[16:24] <mathiaz> nijaba: IIRC we discussed who would get access to it
[16:24] <nijaba> so that people running analysis on it can publish back results
[16:25] <mathiaz> nijaba: is this still relevant or you wanna have an open policy about it?
[16:25] <nijaba> well, I think having a private team for the analysis would be more appropriate
[16:25] <nijaba> but I am not sure how we can set on up in Launchpad
[16:26] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok. Let's discuss this later.
[16:27] <mathiaz> That's all for last week's minutes.
[16:27] <mathiaz> Anything else to add related to last week's minutes?
[16:28] <mathiaz> seems not. Let's move on.
[16:28] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Jaunty specs
[16:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty specs
[16:29] <MTecknology> hey... The survey - there's no 8.10 option
[16:29] <mathiaz> so we're all getting prepared for UDS and started to write up spec for it.
[16:30] <nijaba> MTecknology: indeed, it was launched before the release of intrepid
[16:30] <jjesse> i noticed there are hardly any specs targeted for jaunty yet
[16:30]  * kirkland has a few specs already
[16:30]  * nijaba too
[16:31] <kirkland> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty
[16:31] <kirkland> there's a growing number there
[16:31] <jjesse> wow changed from earlier this week
[16:31]  * nxvl hasn't write anything :(
[16:31] <nxvl> i should write the augeas spec
[16:31]  * kirkland added: 1) encrypted-home-directory, 2) encrypted-swap-by-default, 3) power-capping, 4) server-suspend-hibernate
[16:32] <mathiaz> right - so if you register a new blueprint, target it for Jaunty so that it's considered for the next UDS
[16:32] <nxvl> kirkland: and what happend with file swap?
[16:32] <mathiaz> and also subscribe the ubuntu-server team so that we can track which specs may be or interest to the server team community.
[16:32] <kirkland> nxvl: that one is still there, from last UDS
[16:32] <mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/
[16:32] <kirkland> nxvl: encrypted swap is more important to me, for now though
[16:33] <sommer> mathiaz: should we set the approver to dendrobates as well?
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: yes.
[16:33] <sommer> cool, thought I'd double check
[16:34] <MTecknology> gtg - sorry to cut it short here
[16:34] <nxvl> kirkland: fair enough
[16:34] <MTecknology> fyi - When I encrypt any part of a syste, I just make an encrypted partition, put lvm on it, and then put /, swap, and /home on it
[16:35] <MTecknology> just wanted to throw it out there - ttyal
[16:35] <mathiaz> ok - that's all for the specs for the next UDS
[16:36] <mathiaz> dump your ideas on a wiki page, register a blueprint and subscribe the ubuntu-server team to it
[16:36] <mathiaz> so that we're all notified and can give feedback
[16:36] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
[16:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
[16:37] <mathiaz> Merging is in full swing now.
[16:37] <mathiaz> I've published a list of easy merges and put it on the Roadmpa.
[16:37] <Koon> I did pure-ftpd, I'll update the list.
[16:37] <mathiaz> I'll try to keep it up-to-date on a weekly basis.
[16:37] <mathiaz> Koon: awesome!
[16:38] <mathiaz> If someone does one of them, updating the wiki page is welcome
[16:40] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussio
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussio
[16:40] <mathiaz> Anyone wants to add anything?
[16:40] <mathiaz> now is the time
[16:41] <sommer> is a "ubuntu directory server" still in the works for jaunty
[16:41] <nijaba> sommer: that's one of the proposals we have, yes
[16:41] <sommer> or worked on for jaunty... now that cn=config has been implemented
[16:41] <mathiaz> sommer: yes. That's the next step.
[16:42] <sommer> okay, I was just thinking about it the other day
[16:43] <mathiaz> sommer: There isn't a specific blueprint for now.
[16:43] <mathiaz> sommer: you may wanna keep your ideas written somewhere.
[16:43] <cjwatson> I'm working on getting the GTK installer frontend up and running at the moment
[16:43] <cjwatson> so there should be plenty of time for interested folks to play with that pre-UDS
[16:44] <cjwatson> it's been in Debian for quite a while; I only recently heard that we actually wanted it in Ubuntu though
[16:44] <sommer> cjwatson: cool, do you have a link to the code?
[16:44] <kirkland> cjwatson: cool, we took a look at it last week
[16:44] <nijaba> cjwatson: \o/
[16:44] <cjwatson> sommer: archive.ubuntu.com
[16:44] <cjwatson> sommer: nothing new, it's all been there for some time, this is just the assembly
[16:45] <sommer> ah gotcha
[16:46] <sommer> that's all I had :)
[16:47] <mathiaz> ok. great.
[16:48] <mathiaz> anything else?
[16:52] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:52] <mathiaz> same time, same place, next week?
[16:52] <nijaba> yep!!!
[16:53] <Koon> sure thing.
[16:53] <sommer> o//
[16:54] <mathiaz> great. See you all next week, same time, same place.
[16:54] <mathiaz> And happy merging until then!
[16:54] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[16:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:54.
[16:54] <sommer> thanks mathiaz, later all
[16:55] <kirkland> adios
[17:01] <pgraner> Its time for the Kernel Team Meeting....
[17:01] <pgraner> #startmeeting
[17:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
[17:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:01]  * smb_tp arrives
[17:01]  * apw is here
[17:02]  * cking is here
[17:02] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Welcome Andy Whitcroft to the Kernel Team!
[17:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Welcome Andy Whitcroft to the Kernel Team!
[17:02]  * apw waves
[17:02] <amitk> hello
[17:02] <pgraner> Andy joined us a few weeks ago and is formerly from IBM working on the kernel.
[17:02] <pgraner> apw: Welcome, glad to have you aboard!
[17:02] <apw> thanks, its gonna be fun
[17:03] <pgraner> apw: don't worry rtg will snuf the life out of ya!
[17:03] <lieb> hey we survived pdx
[17:03] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Status of Intrepid Security & bugfix kernels
[17:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status of Intrepid Security & bugfix kernels
[17:04]  * rtg suffers from obsessive compulsive behaviors
[17:04] <pgraner> smb_tp: can you tell us where we sit and when we can expect kernels to -proposed?
[17:04] <BenC> rtg: OCD is a powerful tool in the right hands
[17:04] <smb_tp> dapper, gutsy security sit in repo, needing builds. hardy is almost done
[17:04] <rtg> which is why I employ it :)
[17:04] <pgraner> smb_tp: ETA?
[17:04] <smb_tp> -proposed for hardy has been newed today
[17:05] <smb_tp> I'd say start of next-week latest
[17:05] <pgraner> smb_tp: any Intrepid goodness in the pipe?
[17:05] <smb_tp> pgraner, rtg is on that
[17:05] <pgraner> rtg: ^^^^^^^^^^^?
[17:06] <rtg> Working on Intrepid security kernel 2.6.27-10.19 (yes - it is an ABI bump)
[17:06] <rtg> will give to kees later today.
[17:06] <rtg> Updating Intrepid with stable updates, about to incorporate 2.6.27.7 as soon as its released).
[17:06] <rtg> that'll also be an ABI bump.
[17:06] <pgraner> rtg: what caused the bump?
[17:06] <rtg> networking stuff
[17:06] <smb_tp> pgraner, muddled with task struct
[17:07] <smb_tp> CVE-2008-5029
[17:07] <rtg> um, skb structure change methinks.
[17:07] <pgraner> rtg: ok, how long is that going to bake in -proposed
[17:07] <rtg> until a few weeks before ther point release in January.
[17:07] <rtg> so, late December?
[17:08] <pgraner> rtg: Ok, we need to let krafty know so he can inform partners, I'll talk to him to find out how we need to go about notifying him.
[17:08] <pgraner> rtg: did you post to kernel-team & installer-team?
[17:09] <rtg> no, since I haven't done the upload.
[17:09] <rtg> yet
[17:09] <smb_tp> pgraner, For hardy I got a nice little update to 2.6.24.7 in the pipe (~130 patches) which I try to address as soon as -security is up
[17:09] <pgraner> smb_tp: wow thats big... what are some of the highlights?
[17:09] <pgraner> rtg: ack
[17:10] <rtg> pgraner: I've been bugging smb_tp incorporate the stable patches.
[17:10] <smb_tp> pgraner, I have to compile that. I first tackled just the manual catch up to the -stable git repo and make it compile
[17:10] <pgraner> smb_tp: would be nice to get a summary to the mailing list
[17:11] <smb_tp> pgraner, A sure must. I have to get some feedback from the RT folks since their patchset broke and I want some feedback I fixed it correctly
[17:11]  * pgraner nods
[17:12] <pgraner> anything else on this topic?
[17:12] <BenC> smb_tp: if you want, I can take a look at your -rt changes...are they on kernel-team@?
[17:13] <apw> who you talking to in the -rt team?
[17:13] <smb_tp> BenC, Not yet. I got a tree on kernel.ubuntu.com/smb/ubuntu-hardy-git (stable)
[17:14] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
[17:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
[17:14] <smb_tp> apw, There is someone in the community I forgot.
[17:14] <BenC> pgraner: ubuntu-jaunty raw rebase was just pushed to zinc
[17:15] <BenC> pgraner: I'm doing a cleanup rebase right now, and should have that done by COB
[17:15] <rtg> whats the diff between a raw and clean rebase?
[17:16] <BenC> pgraner: That will give me tomorrow to do configs and start test builds, and hopefully have an upload friday
[17:16] <pgraner> BenC: what are we carrying out of tree as of today
[17:16] <BenC> rtg: raw rebase was "clone intrepid, rebase to linux-2.6; push"
[17:16] <BenC> rtg: cleanup will involve squashing debian/* changes to a single commit, re-ordering commits, etc.
[17:16] <BenC> pgraner: I wont have a clear picture of that until I cleanup the rebase
[17:17] <BenC> I do know that as of right now, no commits were dropped (other than obvious cherry picks that were obsoleted)
[17:17] <amitk> BenC: will you take care of upstreaming any required patches too?
[17:17] <BenC> yes
[17:17] <rtg> BenC: make sure you drop ubuntu/e1000e
[17:17] <pgraner> BenC: prior to dropping anything I'd like to see it discussing on kernel-team, with a list of what we are keeping, dropping and adding
[17:17] <pgraner> s/discussing/discussed/
[17:17] <BenC> pgraner: the 4-5 commits that were dropped were cherry picks from the 2.6.27.y tree that were verified to be in 2.6.28 upstream
[17:18] <BenC> nothing else was dropped
[17:18] <pgraner> BenC: with rational as to why in each case
[17:18] <rtg> we also need to drop some macair stuff sicne its upstream
[17:19] <pgraner> BenC: understood, I'd like to have it as record on the list. I'm consistently asked about patches and why they were dropped and if they are on list we have a public record with rationale
[17:19] <BenC> after the rebase we'll be able to more easily go through the ubuntu/ directory and sauce patches
[17:19] <BenC> pgraner: the ones I dropped were explicitely marked as cherry picks from .y and were not sauce patches
[17:20] <BenC> pgraner: anything else during the cleanup rebase, I'll post to kernel-team@
[17:20] <rtg> and .y patches _must_ come from upstream.
[17:20] <pgraner> BenC: great
[17:20] <BenC> I'll summarize ubuntu/* and sauce patches to kernel-team@ when done
[17:20] <pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to discuss sauce patch & patch status on kernel-team
[17:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to discuss sauce patch & patch status on kernel-team
[17:21] <pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
[17:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
[17:21] <amitk> I uploaded an intrepid-based kernel to jaunty today. Mainly required to enable armel.
[17:21] <amitk> oops
[17:21] <pgraner> amitk: go for it!
[17:22] <amitk> so jaunty has a 2.6.27 based kernel from intrepid with armel arch enabled
[17:22] <amitk> 4 flavours intitially - iop32x, versatile, ixp4xx and orion5x
[17:22] <amitk> *initially
[17:22] <amitk> i see atleast 2-3 more flavours being added
[17:23] <rtg> gonna be an ugly build.
[17:23] <amitk> maybe not
[17:23] <amitk> it took 3 hours for the 4 flavours
[17:23] <amitk> so I would guess 6hrs for 3 more added. Anyone know how much hppa takes?
[17:24] <rtg> its a slow build.
[17:24] <amitk> one issue that was raised by doko was to move linux-libc-dev to its own source package
[17:24] <BenC> amitk: horific
[17:24] <amitk> since I don't have the history, I promised him I'll bring it up here
[17:24] <BenC> amitk: why move it?
[17:25] <amitk> and _that_ ^ was the history I was missing :)
[17:25] <BenC> amitk: it used to be it's own, but it was near impossible to keep it in sync with the kernel
[17:25] <amitk> BenC: they want is quicker, not having to wait for kernels to build I guess
[17:26] <BenC> amitk: Once it's in there, rebuilding against it often isn't important
[17:26] <BenC> amitk: unless there's some huge userspace abi issue that needs to be handled by a total repo rebuild, in which case rebuilding the kernel is trivial compared to it
[17:26] <amitk> ok. I guess we can take that offline
[17:26] <BenC> ok
[17:26] <pgraner> amitk: we will be running the ARM tree in the kernel tree with input from the other teams. To answer your question from earlier
[17:27] <cjwatson> I don't see that the initial bootstrap issue with linux-libc-dev is all that much of a problem, TBH
[17:27] <pgraner> s/tree/team/
[17:27] <cjwatson> if that's all that it is, I don't see a huge benefit
[17:27] <cjwatson> just means we need to remember to coordinate with the kernel team for new bootstraps (which obviously we have to anyway, just a bit earlier)
[17:28] <pgraner> amitk: anything else on armel?
[17:28] <amitk> I'll port the armel configs to BenC new 2.6.28-based tree later today
[17:29] <amitk> so with the next upload everything should be as expected
[17:29] <amitk> over and out
[17:30] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[17:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[17:30] <BenC> amitk: would be better to just send them to me, since my next push will be forced and overwrite it
[17:30] <amitk> BenC: I'll send them to kernel-team ML then
[17:30] <BenC> amitk: good deal
[17:31] <pgraner> Anyone have any topics/issues etc... to bring up?
[17:31] <apw> nothing here
[17:32] <rtg> Other then the Intrepid security work that I've already discussed, I've been
[17:32] <rtg> doing new kernel dev orientation in Portland and Keeping pace with compat-wireless.
[17:32] <rtg> Lots 'o fixes in the wireless subsystems.
[17:32] <BenC> pgraner: what are we doing about UDS planning?
[17:33] <pgraner> BenC: Look for something tomorrow on list. I'm almost done with the draft schedule and agenda we can then hash it out on list and go final
[17:34] <BenC> pgraner: ack
[17:34]  * BenC has to cut out early to get sick kid from school
[17:34] <pgraner> BenC: ack
[17:34] <pgraner> Ok, I guess we'll move on to roundtable.
[17:35] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Roundtable
[17:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Roundtable
[17:35]  * apw wonders what one of those is
[17:36] <pgraner> Looks like rtg has already talked about his bits, so BenC is out so amitk whats up other than what we've discussed?
[17:36] <smb_tp> apw, One without corners?
[17:36] <amitk> apw: the new guy tells a joke\
[17:36]  * rtg has already blurted all his round table topics.
[17:36] <amitk> nothing else on my side
[17:36] <pgraner> smb_tp: anything for you?
[17:37] <smb_tp> pgraner, Not very much to add. Only two SRUs for intrepid (uvcvideo and iscsitarget). Second is already waiting for ACK-love first I have to come up with
[17:37] <pgraner> smb_tp: Ok...
[17:37] <pgraner> cking: what say you?
[17:38] <pgraner> cking: take your keyboard off mute :)
[17:38] <cking> ..finishing off one lot of OEM work (an audio driver fix and video suspend/resume fix) and looking at another OEM device
[17:38] <pgraner> cking: sounds like joy
[17:38] <cking> hardware nerdvana
[17:39] <cking> that's about it..
[17:39] <pgraner> lieb: anything to say?
[17:39] <lieb> I've put the bug process notes into a wiki page and it almost makes sense to me now.  I'll publish this week for review/correction.
[17:39] <pgraner> lieb: great
[17:39] <lieb> I've been asked to backport the ecryptfs patch to hardy does it bo back that far??
[17:40] <lieb> s/bo/go/
[17:40] <pgraner> lieb: it should, have you talked to kirkland? he's doing the userspace side
[17:40] <apw> there is an ecryptfs in hardy
[17:40] <lieb> also, should we expand the discussion of the vt issues to uds?
[17:41] <rtg> lieb: I think there was a lot of change in ecryptfs from .24 to .27
[17:41] <pgraner> lieb: VT is on the agenda
[17:41] <lieb> pgraner: not yet
[17:41] <kirkland> pgraner: lieb: there's a page alignment issue in ecryptfs in Intrepid
[17:41] <lieb> which the patch applies to
[17:41] <pgraner> kirkland: thanks for dropping in
[17:41] <kirkland> pgraner: lieb: mhalcrow (kernel maintainer of ecryptfs) has a fix, attached to that bug
[17:41] <rtg> kirkland: that one is in the pipeline
[17:41] <kirkland> rtg: ah, good, you're top of it?
[17:41] <rtg> lieb is
[17:41] <lieb> more or less
[17:42] <rtg> needs ACK love
[17:42]  * kirkland catches up ...
[17:42] <rtg> as smb would put it :)
[17:42] <smb_tp> rtg, Yeah
[17:42] <kirkland> so as far as backporting to Hardy ...  I'm kinda hoping no one is running ecryptfs on hardy :-)
[17:42] <smb_tp> :)
[17:42] <apw> do we have any of the sexy userspace enablement back there?
[17:42] <lieb> so don't backport?
[17:42] <rtg> kirkland: well, except for me. I use it daily.
[17:43] <kirkland> rtg: really?
[17:43] <rtg> really.
[17:43] <kirkland> apw: nothing automated, just manual mount stuff
[17:43] <pgraner> kirkland: rtg loves living on the edge
[17:43] <kirkland> pgraner: nice.
[17:43] <rtg> I guess I've not encountered the failure scenarios.
[17:43] <apw> just over the edge by my calculations
[17:43] <kirkland> rtg: okay, then, yes, i suspect that patch needs backporting to Hardy
[17:43] <kirkland> rtg: that particular problem has only been reproduced on older AMD hardware (pre-athlon era)
[17:44]  * kirkland has no such hardware
[17:44] <apw> do we know the trigger?
[17:44] <rtg> lemme rephrase, I used it daily until upgrading to Intrepid.
[17:44] <kirkland> apw: the report was just copying a directory tree using Nautilus
[17:44] <kirkland> apw: i can't image Nautilus has *anything* to do with it
[17:44] <rtg> kirkland: I may have a pre-Athlon. lemme check.
[17:45] <kirkland> i'd expect similar behavior from cp/rsync/mv
[17:45] <lieb> so I do it, right?
[17:45] <kirkland> nothing extravagant in the copy... he said like 100 files, 17MB or so
[17:45] <pgraner> lieb: yep
[17:45] <kirkland> i copied 4 gigs, 75,000 files without reproducing the problem on my core2 duo
[17:46] <rtg> lieb: I'll ACK on the mailing list once I wrap my head around it.
[17:46] <lieb> then I'm done ;)
[17:46] <pgraner> apw: your turn...
[17:46] <kirkland> pgraner: is that all you need from me?
[17:46] <pgraner> kirkland: yep
[17:46] <apw> hmmm i thought that you could only trigger this is slub debugging turned on
[17:46] <pgraner> kirkland: thanks
[17:46] <kirkland> cheers ;-)
[17:46] <rtg> apw: which is likely why I never saw it.
[17:46] <apw> been working on a few bugs here and there, a couple of SRU's up for review now
[17:46] <kirkland> apw: slub was a separate issue (i think)
[17:47] <apw> and have another out for testing int he community
[17:47] <apw> everything ticking along ok
[17:47] <pgraner> apw: great.
[17:47] <pgraner> then I guess thats a wrap. Don't forget Canonical folks we have our call immediately following this meeting
[17:48] <pgraner> #stopmeeting
[17:48] <pgraner> #endmeeting
[17:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:48.
[17:48] <rtg> pgraner: immediately, ot in 8 minutes?
[17:48] <rtg> s/ot/or/
[19:56] <jjesse> did i miss the kubuntu meeting?
[19:56] <Riddell> jjesse: 5 mins
[20:01] <apachelogger> *cough*
[20:01] <Riddell> good evening friends
[20:01] <Riddell> who's all here for a kubuntu meeting?
[20:01]  * Nightrose waves
[20:01]  * JontheEchidna waves
[20:01] <rgreening> o/
[20:01]  * claydoh_ raises hand
[20:01] <Arby> \o
[20:01]  * genii waves
[20:02] <seele> <
[20:02]  * Archdevil comes to listen
[20:02] <apachelogger> \o/
[20:02] <Riddell> we've got an agenda at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[20:02]  * ^seelenn^ \o/
[20:02] <Riddell> let's start with memberships
[20:02] <seele> should we do memberships first?
[20:02] <Riddell> Arby wants to be one of us
[20:02] <Arby> :)
[20:02] <seele> Arby: are you sure about that?
[20:02] <apachelogger> wiki: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RichardBirnie LP: https://launchpad.net/~rbirnie
[20:03] <Arby> seele I'm in too deep to get out
[20:03] <JontheEchidna> Ok, most of us thought we already *was* a member. This is a no-brainer
[20:03] <JontheEchidna> s/we/he
[20:03] <Riddell> Arby: want to give us a couple of senences about what you do and why you like Kubuntu>
[20:03] <Riddell> ?
[20:03] <Arby> ok
[20:03] <Arby> I'm a biologist for a living
[20:03] <seele> +1 for cancer research
[20:04] <Arby> I persuaded my company that I needed a linux box to be able work effectively for R usage
[20:04] <Arby> converted my home machines at the end of the breezy cycle
[20:04] <Arby> been a kde user ever since
[20:04] <Arby> and wouldn't go back
[20:04] <Arby> my first ever linux box was a gentoo system
[20:05] <Arby> and we don't talk about thta
[20:05] <Arby> :)
[20:05] <apachelogger> lolz
[20:05] <Riddell> Arby: how has the KDE 4 jump been for you?
[20:05] <rgreening> heh
[20:05] <Arby> Not too bad actually.
[20:05] <seele> Arby: do you know about any of the caGRID or caBIG projects?  they're open source tech developed by the National Cancer Institute
[20:05] <Arby> most of the apps I use regularly were ported early
[20:05] <apachelogger> Arby: do you expect to become a motu in the future?
[20:05] <Nightrose> Arby: what do you like most and least about kubuntu or kde4 (your pick)
[20:05]  * hibana listening in
[20:05] <Arby> seele: I've heard of them, not used them
[20:06] <Arby> apachelogger: yes, eventually
[20:06] <Arby> Nightrose: krunner actually became usable for me in kde4
[20:06] <Arby> because it predicts what I want from it
[20:06] <Arby> that rocks
[20:06] <seele> Arby: will you be able to continue work on system-config-printer-kde (I actually didn't know you were working on this..)
[20:07] <apachelogger> Nightrose: you know, if he picks something bad about kde4 I will have to poke him in the eye, ear and nose? that question is uber awful :P
[20:07] <Nightrose> apachelogger: nah i will keep you from doing that :P
[20:07] <Nightrose> no worries
[20:07] <Arby> seele: I intend to, I was trying to get something working in place before I bug you
[20:07]  * james_w waves
[20:07] <Arby> did I miss any in there?
[20:07] <apachelogger> Nightrose: I have been training my skills, I can now raise shields in less than a second :P
[20:08]  * apachelogger waves to james_w
[20:08] <Nightrose> damn - that is fast
[20:08] <Arby> something bad about kde4 hmm...
[20:08] <Nightrose> Arby: yea - what you like lest about kde4/kubuntu ;-)
[20:08]  * NCommander arrives late :-/
[20:08] <Nightrose> +a
[20:08] <Arby> kmail is a pain to set up with gmail/imap but that's probably google's fault
[20:09] <Nightrose> fair enough
[20:09] <Nightrose> +1 from me - biologists rock ;-)
[20:09] <apachelogger> I guess we can improve that with akonadi ... creating new connection thingies is fairly easy from what I saw
[20:09] <Riddell> +1 from me for being around for ages and doing CD testing and now s-c-p-k love
[20:09]  * Tm_T hides
[20:09] <JontheEchidna> cheers from me for rocking at KDE packaging
[20:10] <seele> +1 for cancer research and printer-config coding
[20:10] <rgreening> +1 here... I love Arby's.... mmmm
[20:10] <Arby> :)
[20:10] <apachelogger> Arby: welcome to the family
[20:10] <Tm_T> sorry I'm bit late
[20:10] <seele> hmm.. no yuriy and nixternal?
[20:10] <Riddell> congratulations Arby
[20:10] <Arby> thanks folks
[20:10] <Nightrose> welcome Arby :)
[20:10] <apachelogger> seele: they didn't want to come for some reason
[20:10] <claydoh> +1 for all the above reasons
[20:10] <Riddell> apachelogger: carry on /me brb
[20:10] <seele> sheesh, slackers :)
[20:10] <Riddell> txwikinger: isn't here go on with the agenda
[20:11] <apachelogger> okies
[20:11] <apachelogger> I am proposing that we switch all KDE core packages to bzr based packaging (i.e. version control the debian directory)
[20:11] <nixternal> bah, sorry
[20:11] <nixternal> congrats, +1 :)
[20:11] <nixternal> I have to go on site so I have to leave...go figure
[20:12] <apachelogger> that way we can increase collaboration and decrease the amount of uploads we do
[20:12] <nixternal> ttyl
[20:12] <apachelogger> this makes most sense for the core packages because they usually contain a lot of applications and some of the uploads we do are really not important enough to be done
[20:13]  * JontheEchidna nods
[20:13] <rgreening> apachelogger: will this make debian syncs/merges easier or no impact?
[20:13] <apachelogger> so instead of uploading minor changes right away to the archive (consuming build time and space and version number and bandwith and what not) we would commit to the bzr branch and every once in a while a core dev pushes the changes
[20:13] <apachelogger> rgreening: it will once the general ubuntu setup is available for that
[20:13] <claydoh> any negatives?
[20:13] <apachelogger> james_w might want to tell us about the future plans for bzr based development
[20:13] <rgreening> apachelogger: k. that gets my vote
[20:13] <james_w> thanks apachelogger
[20:14] <Nightrose> apachelogger: drawbacks (for those unworthy and unknowing people like me)
[20:14] <Nightrose> ;-)
[20:14] <Nightrose> add a ? somewhere there
[20:14] <james_w> we're moving to make this available to everyone for every package in the archive, regardless of whether anyone actually uses bzr for that package
[20:14] <apachelogger> Nightrose: ^ that answers the question I guess ;-)
[20:14] <Nightrose> *nod*
[20:15] <james_w> that means that it doesn't matter if the package is uploaded outside of bzr, nothing will be lost, and it will be a usually small bit of work to re-sync things (like 1 command)
[20:16] <smarter> oh, I missed the beginning
[20:16] <james_w> so I think it is great that you are considering it
[20:16] <smarter> anyway, +1 on bzr packaging (for some exemples,
[20:16] <apachelogger> smarter: you are biased :P
[20:16] <smarter> see my packages: https://code.launchpad.net/~smarter )
[20:16] <james_w> apachelogger: you said "version control the debian directory"?
[20:17] <smarter> version control on the source is pretty much useless
[20:17] <genii> Is the bzr method a way also to make a move from LP ?
[20:17] <Tm_T> as all changes should be in debian dir
[20:17] <apachelogger> james_w: packaging-only, draging the sources around in the branch would be rather awful for core KDE
[20:17] <smarter> and mess diffs
[20:17] <smarter> and merges
[20:17] <Tm_T> indeed
[20:18] <apachelogger> most of source packages are >10 MiB, compressed that is
[20:18] <james_w> but version controlling ./debian/ is also not very nice
[20:18] <apachelogger> james_w: how so?
[20:18] <james_w> for instance, where you have ./debian/patches/ you don't get bzr's ability to merge
[20:18] <james_w> well, if the patches are modified you do, but it normally doesn't do what you want
[20:19]  * smarter doesn't understand
[20:19] <smarter> refresh the patch? see if they were applied upstream?N
[20:19] <apachelogger> hm
[20:19] <james_w> yes, but you get that for free if you do full source branches with no ./debian/
[20:20] <apachelogger> that would however increase the diff from debian if debian uses debian/patches, wouldn't it?
[20:20] <james_w> it is obviously more data to carry around, and conflicts with some ideas of what good packaging is, but it does bring you some benefits
[20:20] <james_w> apachelogger: yes, it would.
[20:21] <smarter> changes outside debian/? IMHO this is just bad
[20:21] <james_w> apachelogger: it would be possible to do some conversions to make that almost invisible, but that's not implemented yet
[20:21] <yuriy> hi. woops, translated the time wrong. I should be used to this by now.
[20:21] <smarter> quilt refreshes patches, and seeing if a patch has been applied upstream isn't that hard, (patch tells you)
[20:21] <apachelogger> smarter: only half bad if you have it in a VCS
[20:21] <smarter> still feels bad :p
[20:22] <smarter> and does not work with http://patches.ubuntu.com
[20:22] <apachelogger> james_w: I think we can rule out full source branches for core KDE
[20:22] <smarter> so more work for upstream/other distros if they want to pick patches
[20:22] <Tm_T> yup
[20:23] <apachelogger> james_w: KDE is not as fine splitted as GNOME source wise, you have big meta packages like kdebase-workspace which essentially carrys everything that is needed for a sensible workspace
[20:23] <Tm_T> I'd say no for full source branches
[20:23] <apachelogger> 92 MiB uncompressed source
[20:23]  * smarter will continue to use debian/-only branching for his not so core KDE packages :p
[20:24] <apachelogger> james_w: from what I know there were earlier tries to keep full source branches of some KDE packages, which essentially made everyone think that bzr is awfully slow, which doesn't surprise me considering the amount of data carried around
[20:25] <james_w> true, that is being worked on
[20:25] <apachelogger> ok, we should consider this at a later time then
[20:26] <Tm_T> I'm not sure if having full source branches have any real benefits right now
[20:26] <apachelogger> for now trying to get packaging under version control should be a good target
[20:26] <Tm_T> apachelogger: I agree on that
[20:26] <james_w> in a few months there will be branches to play with, proper launchpad hosting for them, faster bzr, tools to make the work easier, and ways to replace e.g. patches.ubuntu.com
[20:26] <apachelogger> sounds awesome :)
[20:27] <james_w> and the infrastructure to do it our way even if you disagree :-p
[20:27] <apachelogger> :P
[20:27] <apachelogger> any questions?
[20:27] <apachelogger> or comments for that matter
[20:28] <JontheEchidna> I think getting packaging under vcs and considering everything else later sounds good
[20:28] <james_w> there hasn't been much information about what we are up to yet, but that should change real soon
[20:28] <JontheEchidna> :)
[20:28] <apachelogger> james_w: we would all be very eager to give feedback I guess
[20:29] <Tm_T> james_w: any way to have full source branches with real benefits WITHOUT breaking sensible compatibility with Debian and other distributions aswell?
[20:29]  * rgreening nods
[20:30] <james_w> Tm_T: in theory, I'll be working on the practice at some point
[20:30] <smarter> also, we need a proper howto on using bzr for packaging, all Kubuntu devs don't know how to use it
[20:30] <smarter> I started one sometimes ago but never completed it
[20:30] <Tm_T> james_w: ok, that sounds good
[20:30] <rgreening> agreed smarter
[20:30] <james_w> anyone that wants to discuss that sort of thing is encouraged to head over to vcs-pkg.org
[20:30] <apachelogger> smarter: we should create a batscript for that ;-)
[20:30] <smarter> maybe we could create a wiki page out of the session on bzr packaging from one of the openweek?
[20:31] <james_w> for details on what we are up to in Ubuntu you can visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment
[20:31] <Tm_T> smarter: sure!
[20:31] <james_w> and notice the first link on that page :-)
[20:32] <apachelogger> smarter: I guess that first link resolves the documentation issue? ;-)
[20:32] <smarter> ooh, shiny
[20:32] <smarter> but a bit too splitted for my taste :p
[20:33] <apachelogger> you people and your /Complete pages :P
[20:33] <james_w> that's easily fixable with some moin includes
[20:33] <JontheEchidna> you have been infected by the monolithic KDE :P
[20:33] <JontheEchidna> you can never escape
[20:33] <JontheEchidna> muwahahaha
[20:33] <apachelogger> oh dear, there we go ago
[20:33] <Tm_T> ago?
[20:33] <apachelogger> again even
[20:33] <smarter> also, bzr builddeb should be explained in more details imho, I'll try to add some stuff
[20:34] <Tm_T> apachelogger: son, you're not making much sense, are you?
[20:34] <apachelogger> possibly
[20:34] <apachelogger> anyway, I think we can drag the topic to the mailing list and do the final discussion there
[20:34] <apachelogger> hopefully seeing our packaging in bzr really soon
[20:34] <james_w> apachelogger: please Cc me on that
[20:34] <apachelogger> aye
[20:34] <james_w> thanks
[20:34] <apachelogger> james_w: thank you for taking time :)
[20:34] <Tm_T> james_w: thanks (:
[20:34] <james_w> thanks for inviting me :-)
[20:35] <Riddell> thanks for coming james_w
[20:35]  * Riddell back from crisis
[20:35] <james_w> smarter: file:///usr/share/doc/bzr-builddeb/user_manual/ should be a start
[20:35]  * apachelogger thinks Riddell should talk about the crisis before continuing
[20:35] <rgreening> dino crisis
[20:35] <Riddell> apachelogger: girl stuff, hand wave
[20:35] <rgreening> lol
[20:35] <apachelogger> *scratching head*
[20:35] <jjesse> dino crisis?
[20:36] <apachelogger> ryanakca: ping
[20:36] <JontheEchidna> "if you're having girl trouble I feel bad for you, son..."
[20:36] <Riddell> so we agreed to continue bzr on mailing list?
[20:36] <apachelogger> yes
[20:36] <apachelogger> generally good feeling about it
[20:36] <ryanakca> apachelogger: pong, Mind skipping to the next item and comming back? I could give a screenshot.. but a public page would be nicer, no?
[20:36] <smarter> james_w: yup, it's great but not advertised a lot
[20:36] <^seelenn^> JontheEchidna: Nice bit of Jay-Z there!
[20:36] <ryanakca> apachelogger: or I can just stick a screenie under my public_html... either or...
[20:37] <apachelogger> ryanakca: nah, do it properly
[20:37] <JontheEchidna> I spits hot fire!
[20:37] <apachelogger> or send it to me, I can upload
[20:37] <apachelogger> Riddell: please continue with UDS topics
[20:37] <seele> oh, this will take a while
[20:37] <Riddell> I tidied up this page https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuJauntySpecs
[20:37] <seele> do we have any volunteers for writing specs?
[20:38] <seele> Hobbsee was pinging about it last night
[20:38] <Riddell> registering i what needs done
[20:38] <Riddell> so question is, are those five specs sensible ones to register and have time slots allocated
[20:39] <Riddell> to some extent they all merge into each other and the outcomes (i.e. what specs we write) can be flexible
[20:39] <jjesse> yes
[20:39] <jjesse> i would attend those
[20:39] <Riddell> s/would/will/ :)
[20:39] <apachelogger> they all look very sensible to me
[20:39] <rgreening> agreed
[20:40] <JontheEchidna> I think kpackagekit has it's own notification system
[20:40] <Riddell> there's also been discussion among the platform team about having more QA time this cycle
[20:40] <Riddell> but I don't think we need a spec about that, we just try and follow the general Ubuntu plan for that
[20:40] <JontheEchidna> but I guess details on specs can be worked out later
[20:41] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: that is what UDS is for :)
[20:41] <JontheEchidna> heh
[20:41] <smarter> one important thing: our python apps seem to be undertested with locales != english
[20:41] <smarter> lots of pyqt/pykde apps crashes because of accents in the l10nized strings
[20:41] <Arby> what about something on translations?
[20:42] <smarter> I'll try to test them more often
[20:42] <smarter> but automated testing would be good
[20:42] <rgreening> I believe there is a ubuntu rosetta spec
[20:42] <Arby> that would be good
[20:42] <Riddell> poking rosetta people would be good
[20:42] <apachelogger> Riddell: I don't think we need a spec for the on-going problems?
[20:42] <yuriy> those sound good
[20:42] <apachelogger> Scott wanted to do quite some discussion about that
[20:42] <Tm_T> off ->
[20:43] <yuriy> maybe also discuss applications with upcoming KDE4 versions? (k3b, amarok, digikam)
[20:43] <apachelogger> Tm_T: cya
[20:43] <seele> File sharing might be a spec in itself.. nothing really got done since the last time it was talked about in Prague
[20:43] <smarter> hmm, what's Kdpkg?
[20:43] <Riddell> the rosetta problems are launchpad issues, nothing we can spec, but certainly talk to the rosetta people
[20:43] <Riddell> yuriy: yes, care to add that to the first spec on that page?
[20:43] <apachelogger> Riddell: also the networkmanager and bluetooth breakage
[20:43] <Riddell> seele: we have the spec from last time for it
[20:44] <seele> Setup and Gap Analysis look like the same thing
[20:44] <seele> Riddell: that gets carried over?
[20:44] <rgreening> Riddell: how long are the sessions typically?
[20:44] <seele> hmm.. should we have a separate KDE 4.2 discussion?
[20:44] <Arby> re: adept vs kpackagekit, isn't that going to be heavily dependent on what kde do?
[20:44] <apachelogger> what's there to discuss? ;-)
[20:44] <jjesse> as in do we want kde 4.2 or not?
[20:45] <seele> rgreening: ~1 hour with multiple extensions throughout the week
[20:45] <vorian> its like gdebi-instsll, smarter
[20:45] <Riddell> Arby: yes, there's a kpackagekit guy at fosscamp I'll get to talk to
[20:45] <smarter> what's wrong with gdebi?
[20:45] <apachelogger> seele: most of the items in setup read like improving existing stuff, gap analysis more like adding new stuff
[20:45] <seele> jjesse: i expect we will, but who knows what it will look like
[20:45] <persia> Regarding rosetta, it may also be interesting for UDS attendees to try to attend https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/smooth-rosetta-imports
[20:45] <seele> alpha is supposed to be out rsn
[20:45] <Arby> packagekit seems to be flavour of the month, has anybody actually used it?
[20:45] <apachelogger> beta actually
[20:46] <seele> ah, even better
[20:46] <rgreening> I assume that some of these specs will result in additional (fine-tuned and specific) specs to track individual items to complete.
[20:46] <apachelogger> seele: if KDE continues like that there isn't going to be a major release we don't want to have
[20:46] <jjesse> rsn?
[20:46] <seele> apachelogger: sure as long as there isn't new stuff that only sortof works
[20:46] <apachelogger> 4.2 comes with akonadi for pim, which is super uber master unbelivable important
[20:46] <Riddell> seele: the first spec on that page is intended to be 4.2 discussion
[20:46] <apachelogger> also policykit-kde is going to get in which is going to imporve a lot of things
[20:46] <jjesse> especially with more kubuntu people there this time, instead of like UdS Boston it was me and riddell
[20:47] <Riddell> Arby: yes, when it works it works nice enough
[20:47] <apachelogger> seele: there always will be, it's our job to make it work or disappear (e.g. plasma activities) ;-)
[20:47] <seele> Riddell: kde packaging?
[20:47] <Riddell> seele: yes
[20:47] <seele> apachelogger: yeah.. disappear wasnt too popular :-/
[20:48] <Riddell> seele: unless you're thinking of a different angle
[20:48] <seele> Riddell: i was thinking on the "disappear" angle
[20:48] <rgreening> um .. wow netsplit
[20:48] <apachelogger> seele: it's the bad experience => feedback vs. good experience => no feedback problem IMO
[20:48] <apachelogger> we saved a lot of people a lot of trouble
[20:48] <Riddell> rgreening: yes, we can add new specs as discussion warrents them
[20:50] <Riddell> seele: gap analysis is stuff we lack compared to ubuntu/kde 3, Setup is config settings and fixing incomplete bits
[20:50] <seele> ok
[20:50] <Riddell> rgreening: sessions are an hour I think
[20:51] <rgreening> Riddell: may be short on time for some of those topics... given the depth of the categories.
[20:51] <seele> rgreening: they can be extended throughout the week for additional discussion
[20:51] <Riddell> rgreening: we can ask for a second slot
[20:51] <Riddell> that's quite common
[20:51] <jjesse> rgreening: we can talk more and more
[20:51] <rgreening> ok. cool
[20:51] <jjesse> plus we can discuss as a group outside of a session
[20:51] <jjesse> like over lunch or dinner
[20:51] <rgreening> true.. over brewskies
[20:52] <apachelogger> Oo
[20:52] <apachelogger> oh dear
[20:52] <seele> no karaoke though, different hotel this time
[20:52] <Riddell> still has a hot tub though
[20:52]  * rgreening has done some of his programming in a bar on a napkin
[20:52] <apachelogger> Riddell: I guess we can move on before I become sad that I can't go to UDS? :P
[20:52] <Riddell> yep
[20:52] <seele> Riddell: does it have your swimming pool too?
[20:53] <yuriy> apachelogger: too late!
[20:53] <Riddell> txwikinger has arrived
[20:53] <Riddell> txwikinger: shall we consider your membership?
[20:53] <Riddell> hmm, maybe he's disappeared again
[20:53] <Riddell> "Beta 1 packaging/uploading"
[20:54] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: I heard you were incharge of beta 1?
[20:54] <JontheEchidna> yeah, we're waiting on tarballs to show up in ktown
[20:55] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: 4.1.3 in intrepid should get moved to -proposed (then -updates) so the backports can go to experimental then copied to -backports
[20:55] <Riddell> but I'm away next week
[20:55] <Riddell> so no reliable internet
[20:55] <JontheEchidna> I assume we would not place KDE 4.2 into backports until the first stable release
[20:55] <Riddell> so you'll need to convince apachelogger or scottk or someone to upload
[20:55] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: good point
[20:55] <Riddell> so just jaunty
[20:56] <apachelogger> and kubuntu-experimental
[20:56] <JontheEchidna> yes
[20:56] <Riddell> I updated libs/bindings/base this week so they shouldn't be much different to package
[20:56] <apachelogger> we discussed that in the last meeting
[20:56] <Riddell> you're ahead of me then
[20:57] <apachelogger> seems so
[20:57] <Riddell> next item
[20:57] <Riddell> JontheEchidna had a "Bug status report"
[20:57] <JontheEchidna> oh, right :)
[20:57] <JontheEchidna> Right now we're in pretty good shape I think
[20:57] <JontheEchidna> we still need help as always
[20:58] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: I have a script ready for batchuploading, so once you are done with ensuring everything works just rely the dsc, diff.gz and filter.diff ... also you might want to checkout the local-repo additions to the hooks
[20:58] <JontheEchidna> I have gathered some stats about the bugs and how KDE 4.2 will immediately affect the tracker
[20:58] <txwikinger> Hi folks
[20:58] <txwikinger> yes please
[20:58] <apachelogger> txwikinger: o/
[20:59] <jjesse> JontheEchidna: i have some more time to help w/ basic triage of things during hthe upcoming weeks so i wil lbe back to trying to track things down
[20:59] <Riddell> txwikinger: too late, JontheEchidna on now, you next
[20:59] <JontheEchidna> KDE 4.2 will immediately close 4 known bugs (about 9%) in kde4libs
[20:59] <Riddell> kde4libs only has ~40 bugs?
[20:59] <JontheEchidna> 48 or so
[21:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: it had 5 when we started triage
[21:00] <JontheEchidna> kdebase will also recieve 4 bugfixes, or about 2% of total bugs
[21:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: most bugs in libs are long-standing ones and probably still in kdelibs rather than kde4libs
[21:00] <JontheEchidna> that sounds totally pitiful, but on the bright side almost 50% bugs are both triaged and linked upstream
[21:00] <JontheEchidna> or about 70 bugs
[21:01] <apachelogger> yay for linked upstream
[21:01] <JontheEchidna> kdebase has also been triaged down to 160-some bugs :D
[21:01] <yuriy> :) yay we're not talking about hundreds or thousands
[21:01] <JontheEchidna> I think we had 600 at the middle of intrepid \o/
[21:01] <txwikinger> apachelogger: o/
[21:01] <apachelogger> TBH most of them got just splitted up among base, runtime and workspace
[21:02] <apachelogger> or closed due to KDE3 outdateness
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> yeag
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> h
[21:02]  * apachelogger thinks txwikinger is lagging a lot
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> kdebase-workspace will have at least 12 bugs fixed in 4.2, or 8% of total open bugs
[21:02] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: do you think that the bug tracker is in the kind of shape where it would be useful to try to target particular sets of bugs for alphas?
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: we have already started doing that
[21:02] <JontheEchidna> :)
[21:03] <JontheEchidna> around 45% in kdebase-workspace are both upstreamed and triaged, or about 54 bugs
[21:03] <JontheEchidna> but now comes kdepim...
[21:03]  * apachelogger shudders
[21:03]  * Arby shuffles quietly away
[21:03] <JontheEchidna> at this point in time it has more bugs open than in kdebase
[21:03] <JontheEchidna> only 3 bugs or 1.5%  of all open bugs are set to be fixed with KDE 4.2 that we know about
[21:04] <JontheEchidna> it still has a crapload of hard to reproduce imap bugs from KDE3
[21:04] <Arby> I'm a few days away from a mass closure due to lack of info/response
[21:04] <JontheEchidna> Arby: evil laughs all around >:)
[21:04] <apachelogger> we can close most of them once we are switching to akonadi
[21:04] <JontheEchidna> nice
[21:04] <apachelogger> the underlying system is completely different (and actually more reliable)
[21:05] <apachelogger> and most bugs for kmail are about dataloss of some sort
[21:05] <apachelogger> or crashes
[21:05] <apachelogger> which both should be taken care of by akonadi and KDE 4.2
[21:05] <doc__> hi
[21:05] <JontheEchidna> So I think on most fronts we are doing a good job keeping bug volume under control
[21:06] <JontheEchidna> we should put an emphasis on keeping it that way + upstreaming bugs for Jaunty
[21:06] <Riddell> seems like 4.2 should be a benefit for bug count
[21:06] <apachelogger> most definitely
[21:06] <JontheEchidna> yes, KDE 4.2 should close several dozen bugs
[21:06] <apachelogger> also a lot of plasma issues are going to be resolved
[21:06] <apachelogger> BTW
[21:07] <apachelogger> I was thinking about assigning specific people to specific packages
[21:07] <Riddell> I didn't think you could assign
[21:07] <JontheEchidna> oh, and somebody needs to fix apachelogger's kmail
[21:07] <apachelogger> bug triage is a lot more effective the ones doing it have great knowledge of the apps
[21:07] <apachelogger> Riddell: well, on a non-lp level
[21:07] <apachelogger> just make people focus on a specific package
[21:07] <apachelogger> monitoring all packages at once is rather difficult
[21:07] <yuriy> can't you subscribe to a package's bugs?
[21:08]  * yuriy would volunteer for one butt doesn't know which
[21:08] <Arby> do we have enough people with enough knowledge of a given app for that to work?
[21:08] <Arby> s/app/package/
[21:08] <apachelogger> we could start on the big bug spots
[21:08] <apachelogger> namely kdepim and the kdebases
[21:09] <apachelogger> initial triage becomes a lot easier if not everyone has to care about everything
[21:09] <Arby> that's true
[21:09] <txwikinger> yuriy: yes I think you can
[21:09] <apachelogger> like Arby is doing a lot of work in kdepim, so if Arby agrees to focus on kdepim I could filter all kdepim related bug mails coming in via kubuntu-bugs directly to the trash because Arby will take a look at them when he gets a chance
[21:10] <Arby> look at != be able to do anything about :)
[21:10] <apachelogger> Arby: triage is everything ;-)
[21:10] <Arby> the underlying mail architecture is black magix to me
[21:11] <Arby> but I agree in principle :)
[21:11] <apachelogger> it improves over time ;-)
[21:11] <apachelogger> the more people join the core bug squad, the easier it becomes to get initial triage done, and intial is most important to spot major issues
[21:11] <JontheEchidna> plus all the black magix will be moving to akonadi soon anyways
[21:11] <apachelogger> akonadi got very decent debugging facilities :)
[21:12] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: anything else to say?
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> no, I think that's it
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> loosely assigning package focuses should be considered or perhaps worked out in a less official manner
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> I don't think we'll have a problem with that
[21:12] <Riddell> thanks beastie squishers
[21:12] <Riddell> txwikinger: about?
[21:13] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: send mail asking for volunteers for specific packages?
[21:13] <txwikinger> yes
[21:13] <txwikinger> do I still lag?
[21:13] <Riddell> txwikinger: got a wiki page?
[21:13] <txwikinger> https://launchpad.net/~txwikinger https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Txwikinger
[21:13] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: that might be a wise move
[21:13] <txwikinger> I updated it a little bit
[21:13] <Riddell> txwikinger: able to tell us what you do and why you like us?
[21:14] <txwikinger> Well.. I like you guys because you rock :D
[21:14] <apachelogger> \o/
[21:14] <apachelogger> +1
[21:14] <txwikinger> I am an IT professional for about 25 years
[21:14] <txwikinger> I have worked with Unix in the past and for about 7 years with Linux
[21:14] <txwikinger> I am already an Ubuntu member
[21:15] <txwikinger> but I really never use Gnome.. I like KDE a lot better
[21:15] <txwikinger> and I think with enough love, KDE will rock the boat
[21:15]  * JontheEchidna shares the sentiment
[21:15] <Riddell> txwikinger: are you still the top 5-a-day dude?
[21:16] <txwikinger> yes Riddell
[21:16] <Riddell> impressive
[21:16] <txwikinger> I have also given a presentation at the Ontario Linux Fest last month about Bug triage and 5-a-day
[21:16] <JontheEchidna> he's pretty handy for a hug day
[21:16] <txwikinger> well.. not the top at the moment
[21:16] <apachelogger> that reminds me, I didn't commit bug stats in at least a month
[21:16] <txwikinger> but I think top 5 or so
[21:17] <Riddell> is the "Kubuntu based market-targeted distribution" Icxthus?
[21:17] <txwikinger> I am in the process of an intercontinental move at the moment.. Tomorrow I get decent broadband again :D
[21:17] <apachelogger> txwikinger: future plans for Kubuntu?
[21:17] <txwikinger> yes it is ichthux
[21:18] <txwikinger> Helping with some systemsettings stuff
[21:18] <Riddell> txwikinger: did ichthux do an intrepid release?
[21:18] <txwikinger> I already work on the user management
[21:18] <seele> yes please
[21:18] <txwikinger> Riddell.. Due to the move I did not have the time to make it 100% work with KDE4
[21:18] <txwikinger> but with some manual tuning it still works
[21:18] <seele> txwikinger: supposedly there is someone working on a new kuser UI, but i've no idea what the status is
[21:19] <Riddell> someone might be txwikinger :)
[21:19] <txwikinger> I will get on now to get the bibletime for KDE4 packaged and do some tuning
[21:19] <seele> no, it was a non ubuntero
[21:19] <txwikinger> seele: I got it working standalone
[21:19] <yuriy> txwikinger: is Nicolas Ternisien aware of that? did you get that mail from him about guidance to kdeadmin for 4.3?
[21:19] <txwikinger> I got some information the other day how to get it into systemsettings and will work on that
[21:20] <yuriy> er that was to seele ^
[21:20] <txwikinger> yuriy: I saw the e-mail
[21:20] <seele> yuriy: hmm.. no.  i wish people would coordinate better
[21:20] <txwikinger> I will get in contact
[21:20] <apachelogger> seele: he sent it to kubuntu-devel
[21:21] <txwikinger> Well.. I also intend to do some work to become a MOTU especially for Kubuntu stuff
[21:21] <yuriy> txwikinger: any plans to get involved upstream? (such as with system settings)
[21:21] <Nightrose> txwikinger: same wuestion for you as for Arby: what do you like most and least about kubuntu or kde4 (your pick)
[21:21] <seele> apachelogger: hmm.. i only saw printer stuff from him on there.  i'll have to dig through the archives
[21:21] <txwikinger> I am already maintaining the ichthux packages and bibletime.. bibletime also for Debian
[21:22] <txwikinger> yuriy: Sure
[21:22] <txwikinger> I like most about KDE4 that it creates a new concept of desktop usage
[21:22]  * seele assumes when someone says "give us a new kuser UI" that there aren't other people trying to do the same thing..
[21:22] <apachelogger> seele: only sent recently, he wants to get all of guidance into kdeadmin and ported to KDE 4
[21:22] <txwikinger> I think it is very revolutionary
[21:23] <seele> txwikinger: i'm glad you aren't resistant to change
[21:23] <Riddell> +1 from me for doing a talk at Lugradio live when jono was badgering me to do one
[21:23] <txwikinger> I think a problem is that some user have a little problem with this new concept.. I think we need to help them adust
[21:23] <txwikinger> adjust.. I want to help there
[21:23] <seele> badger badger badger..
[21:24] <Tm_T> Riddell: +1 for that too
[21:24] <Nightrose> hmmm *nod*
[21:24] <seele> +1 from me too
[21:24] <rgreening> +1 for being a canadian too
[21:24] <yuriy> +1 from me
[21:25] <Nightrose> +1 for being an uberbugtriager
[21:25] <yuriy> txwikinger has been involved for a while
[21:25] <Riddell> quite a new Candian :)
[21:25] <ryanakca> +1 here :)
[21:25] <claydoh> +1
[21:25] <txwikinger> o/ rgreening :)
[21:25] <Riddell> txwikinger: looks like you're in, congratulations
[21:25] <rgreening> :)
[21:25] <JontheEchidna> woohoo
[21:25] <Nightrose> welcome txwikinger
[21:25] <ryanakca> txwikinger: you a canadian yet?
[21:25] <txwikinger> thanks Riddell and folkd
[21:25]  * apachelogger hands txwikinger a cookie and a hug
[21:25] <yuriy> welcome txwikinger
[21:25] <txwikinger> folks
[21:25] <ryanakca> congrats txwikinger :)
[21:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: ryanakca is read with his agenda item
[21:25] <Tm_T> txwikinger: hug mama?
[21:25] <Riddell> still some items on the agenda
[21:25] <Riddell> ryanakca: go go
[21:26] <txwikinger> ryanakca: Permanent resident so far.. if that counts :D
[21:26] <ryanakca> Okies... We've updated the kubuntu.org theme... but our wiki.kubuntu.org theme seems to be lagging behind / old... ^seelenn^ and I worked on porting mdke's new help.ubuntu.com/community/ theme to Kubuntu colors... What we have so far is http://wiki.ryanak.ca/kubuntu/ .
[21:27] <ryanakca> Is there any interest / should we keep working on it, or would people rather keep the current theme?
[21:27] <apachelogger> is that question serious? Oo
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> looks much better imo
[21:27]  * rgreening likes
[21:27] <Riddell> looks good but I'm not convinced at fixed width
[21:27]  * claydoh likes
[21:27] <ryanakca> (I don't know if mdke's theme is the default yet, but, you can select it on the community wiki from preferences -> theme -> ubuntunew )
[21:28] <yuriy> same as Riddell
[21:28] <seele> do Kubuntu colors typically match the current KDE release colors?  the website looks very 3.5 in that respect
[21:28] <smarter> same as Riddell, fixed width is Bad
[21:28]  * JontheEchidna dislikes fixed width as well
[21:28]  * Tm_T too
[21:28] <ryanakca> seele: well... we're trying to keep it as close to kubuntu.org as possible... that way there's a unity.
[21:28] <yuriy> ryanakca: images aren't loading from your server
[21:28] <seele> ryanakca: ah i see
[21:28] <ryanakca> yuriy: I know :)
[21:29] <seele> no no no you people.. fixed width! fixed width!
[21:29] <^seelenn^> fixed width has it's advantages
[21:29] <seele> or at least a managed fluid width that doesnt get out of control in larger resolutions
[21:29]  * ^seelenn^ agrees with seele
[21:29] <ryanakca> seele: imho, it would confuse people if one of our sites had colors <x> and another had colors <y>
[21:29] <Tm_T> seele: heh, that too
[21:30] <apachelogger> seele: that is more sensible than fixed
[21:30] <apachelogger> ryanakca: fixed with gives us a lot of trouble
[21:30] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna can also whine about that
[21:30]  * JontheEchidna thought he already did
[21:30] <apachelogger> getting content to look good in a fixed with theme is a bloody waste of time
[21:30] <ryanakca> Ok, I guess we'll adapt it to ``fluid width that doesn't get out of control in larger resolutions'' as well?
[21:30] <seele> apachelogger: the point is to aim for 20-25 english words per line
[21:30]  * Tm_T hate fixed widths and font sizes which doesn't follow users settings
[21:30] <seele> any more than that and prose is too difficult to read
[21:31] <seele> even 25 wpl is kindof long
[21:31] <apachelogger> seele: in a wiki you barley even have paragraphs that long ;-)
[21:31] <Tm_T> seele: I disagree on that
[21:31] <^seelenn^> ryanakca: Some serious cross platform/browser testing I think then
[21:31] <seele> depends on what is wikied
[21:31] <seele> Tm_T: don't make me dig out research, because i'll do it
[21:31] <ryanakca> seele: if you're interested... we'd love your usability feedback while we work on the wikitheme...
[21:32] <apachelogger> seele: I think the problem is addressed at the wrong node ... it is rather the viewing application that should ensure readability
[21:32] <seele> ryanakca: sure, just ping me with questions
[21:33] <ryanakca> seele: thanks :)
[21:33] <Riddell> groovy
[21:33] <seele> apachelogger: it's a bit irresponsible to place the burden of usability on the user's choice of browser
[21:33] <Riddell> seems like we want the theme
[21:33] <seele> otherwise, why "design" a page at all
[21:33] <Riddell> claydoh is next up
[21:34] <JontheEchidna> burn kubuntu-users with fire!
[21:34] <claydoh> Ok
[21:34] <claydoh> :)
[21:34] <claydoh> first, do any of us actually folllow it at all?
[21:34] <claydoh> besides me
[21:34] <Nightrose> i read some of it and decided not to continue
[21:34] <Nightrose> waste of time
[21:34] <Riddell> I scan over it
[21:34] <Nightrose> :(
[21:34]  * JontheEchidna doesn't even bother
[21:34]  * rgreening avoids suchs lists
[21:35] <seele> if the kde community leader can't read it then it must be bad
[21:35] <JontheEchidna> unless somebody points out a lulzish post
[21:35] <claydoh> Nightrose: I feel that way too :(
[21:35] <apachelogger> we need to do something!
[21:35] <Nightrose> indeed
[21:35] <claydoh> do we need a support list  an anyones opinion?
[21:35] <apachelogger> Riddell: IIRC it is possible to block threads or something?
[21:35] <Riddell> so split it into kubuntu-users for support and kubuntu-users-chat for everything else?
[21:35] <Tm_T> seele: I know that research, but it doesn't apply to me
[21:36] <seele> public humiliation?
[21:36] <Nightrose> stricter moderation?
[21:36] <apachelogger> Riddell: I don't why we need a list for it at all
[21:36] <seele> Nightrose: same difference?
[21:36] <Nightrose> yea
[21:36] <Nightrose> Riddell: i don't really think we need a chat mailinglist tbh
[21:36] <Nightrose> maybe i am wrong
[21:36] <apachelogger> Riddell: if people want to elaborate their opinion, which is what most of these threads are, they might very well get a blog
[21:36] <claydoh> apachelogger: that is part of the question
[21:36] <Nightrose> or a cat :P
[21:37] <apachelogger> yus
[21:37] <JontheEchidna> forums are better; we have forums for both kubuntu and KDE now
[21:37] <rgreening> Nightrose: groan
[21:37] <rgreening> :)
[21:37] <Riddell> so we should just block anyone who gets off support topics?
[21:37] <apachelogger> nah, just the threads if that is possible
[21:37] <Nightrose> well maybe start it with a "here is how it goes" email
[21:37] <claydoh> Riddell: that would of course tick everyone off
[21:37] <Nightrose> tellign them that the list is becomming useless for a lot of people
[21:37] <claydoh> then there's the Heavy Hand of the Big Evil Kubunntu Devs
[21:38] <Nightrose> because there is no actual support happening
[21:38] <JontheEchidna> claydoh: well, the point *is* that we dont' want them :P
[21:38] <apachelogger> really, we should just block the threads as they appear
[21:38] <Nightrose> apachelogger: can single threads be blocked?
[21:39] <Riddell> topics can
[21:39] <Nightrose> nice
[21:39] <apachelogger> sounds good
[21:39] <Nightrose> yea
[21:39] <Riddell> seems like we need a volunteer to be a more active moderator
[21:39] <Nightrose> claydoh maybe?
[21:39] <apachelogger> I vote for claydoh
[21:39] <claydoh> umm
[21:39] <Nightrose> hehe
[21:39]  * claydoh runs and hides
[21:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: maybe we should just get a team of moderators
[21:39] <Tm_T> haha, claydoh you're volunteered now
[21:39] <claydoh> a team would be ebtter
[21:39]  * Nightrose drags claydoh back in :P
[21:39]  * apachelogger is a fan of load distribution
[21:39] <claydoh> I'm in :)
[21:40] <Riddell> ok, I'll work out how to do that after the meeting
[21:41] <claydoh> maybe a set of simple guidlines are needed?
[21:41] <Riddell> good idea
[21:41] <Nightrose> claydoh and i can try to work out an email to announce that if you want
[21:41] <Riddell> please do
[21:41] <claydoh> kubuntuforums is soo much easier to manage :)
[21:42] <apachelogger> claydoh, Nightrose: get a set of guidelines under which cases a topic will be blocked
[21:42] <apachelogger> and include it in the announcement so that everyone is instantly aware of what is "support"
[21:42] <ryanakca> You'd probably have to repost them monthly... and link to them on the lists subscription page...
[21:43] <claydoh> yes, many do that
[21:43] <apachelogger> well, repost when they shift off topic again
[21:43] <Nightrose> claydoh: ping me after the meeting if you have time then we can work something out
[21:43] <Nightrose> next topic i guess?
[21:43] <Riddell> which is apachelogger's topic
[21:44]  * apachelogger had a hard time finding the right konqueror window
[21:44] <claydoh> Nightrose: have to leave soon for my wife's class, won't ba back till very late
[21:44] <apachelogger> earlier today some URLs were posted in which a 3rd party repo was advertised
[21:44] <apachelogger> more precisely a 3rd party repo for KDE 3 on Intrepid
[21:44] <Nightrose> claydoh: ok - tomorrow then?
[21:45] <apachelogger> I am a bit concerned because these packages use an increased epoch in order to override the KDE 4 version
[21:45] <apachelogger> so that everyone understands what I mean, the epoch is essentially the most important version number of a package
[21:45] <apachelogger> the only way to supersed and epoch is by bumping it
[21:46] <Nightrose> any contact from their or our side so far?
[21:46] <JontheEchidna> none
[21:46] <claydoh> nope
[21:46] <Nightrose> \o/
[21:46] <claydoh> I have suggested twice
[21:46] <apachelogger> we use epoch 4, the KDE 3 packages use epoch 7, so eventually everyone who installs these packages doesn't only get 3rd party packages with various manual additions to our hardy packages
[21:46]  * Nightrose loves communication
[21:47] <apachelogger> so they loose the capability to upgrade properly
[21:47] <seele> apachelogger: how widespread is its use?
[21:47] <rgreening> omg. how lame is that
[21:47] <Nightrose> this will cause major screwups with jaunty i assume?
[21:47] <JontheEchidna> Nightrose: most likely
[21:47] <apachelogger> seele: it was posted on ubuntuforums so it is _a lot_ I would say
[21:47] <claydoh> according to the guy, 200 unique ip's downloaded
[21:47] <seele> eek
[21:47] <claydoh> but not sure how long ago
[21:48] <Arby> jaunty -> jaunty +1 upgrades will likely explode
[21:48] <Nightrose> there was a blogpost on puc about the new automatics
[21:48] <Nightrose> maybe something like this is in order
[21:48] <apachelogger> also communication wouldn't help much, there is no easy way out of this
[21:48] <Nightrose> maybe not as harsh
[21:48] <Nightrose> let me look for it
[21:48] <apachelogger> if we help him get the packages done in a way that they don't need to have an epoch > ours it would break upgrades for the people who already installed it
[21:48] <claydoh> do we invite them to our table?
[21:49] <Arby> is it worth a response to the forum thread explaining the future consequences?
[21:49] <Nightrose> Arby: definitel
[21:49] <Nightrose> y
[21:49] <Riddell> Arby: I'd say so
[21:49] <apachelogger> most important for now
[21:49] <claydoh> Arby: yes
[21:49] <Nightrose> users assume this is safe
[21:49] <smarter> also, some of his packaging seems frightening
[21:49] <JontheEchidna> they should have made -kde3 packages instead of this epoch madness
[21:49]  * rgreening thinks we need to communicae that they get no support if they do this.
[21:49] <Arby> ok, I think I just volunteered
[21:49] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: exaclty, if he would have contacted us beforehand...
[21:49] <smarter> I looked a bit into the forum thread and he said something like he couldn't just use PPA to build the source because he modified binary packages ::
[21:49] <Tm_T> smarter: explain that somewhere, for the packager and for the users
[21:49] <smarter> *:/
[21:50] <Tm_T> smarter: WHAT?!
[21:50] <smarter> not really understood what he meant
[21:50]  * JontheEchidna faints
[21:50] <claydoh> smarter: on kubuntuforums, he declined as he wanted total control
[21:50] <Nightrose> http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html?start=164
[21:50]  * smarter tries finding the post
[21:50] <Nightrose> ^ this one
[21:51]  * JontheEchidna thinks it should be exactly as harsh
[21:51]  * claydoh disagrees
[21:51] <apachelogger> well
[21:51] <claydoh> not that harsh, but harsh
[21:51] <seele> what's wrong with kde3 backports that people went and used this instead?
[21:51] <apachelogger> we should nicely ask him to take the repo offline
[21:51] <smarter> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=6153716&postcount=88
[21:51] <smarter> "I've had to do so much fiddling with the build environment that I doubt this will work. I want a place to upload the binaries (and source) that I have already built, tested, in some cases modified, and verified."
[21:51] <apachelogger> until we resovled this properly
[21:51] <rgreening> I agree with apachelogger, as a first step. then move to harsher if needed
[21:52] <apachelogger> aye
[21:52] <JontheEchidna> yeah, probably would be best
[21:52] <Riddell> I suspect he won't take much notice
[21:52] <Tm_T> rgreening: harsher would be...
[21:52] <Nightrose> i still think we should make it very clear how dangerous this is
[21:52]  * smarter still don't gets why people don't just stick with Hardy
[21:52] <Tm_T> Riddell: but we must try
[21:52] <apachelogger> seele: this one causes enroumous problems with upgrades to anything > 8.10
[21:52] <Tm_T> Nightrose: that's a first priority I think
[21:52] <smarter> if it's really needed, we could put a statement on kubuntu.org
[21:52] <claydoh> smarter: they want the 'latest and greatest'kernel, xorg, yet want a stable system
[21:52] <apachelogger> would be an option
[21:53] <Nightrose> smarter: blog and forum should do i think
[21:53] <seele> apachelogger: i get that.. i'm trying to understand why someone would use this repo instead of using the kde3 backports that scottk did
[21:53] <smarter> and if KDE 3.5.11 is released and this guy tries to package it, he might very well causes some severe breakages
[21:53] <Riddell> smarter: I think that would just attract attention to them
[21:53] <Nightrose> seele: they want intrepid
[21:53] <smarter> Riddell: good point
[21:53] <Nightrose> and not stay with hardy
[21:53] <apachelogger> seele: <claydoh> smarter: they want the 'latest and greatest'kernel, xorg, yet want a stable system
[21:53] <claydoh> seele: probably didn't know about scottk's
[21:53] <seele> is there any plan for 3.5.11?  3.5.10 was an afterthought and a weekend of coolo's time
[21:54] <JontheEchidna> ScottK only made -kde3 packages for kdvi
[21:54] <JontheEchidna> iirc
[21:54] <apachelogger> yes
[21:54] <Tm_T> seele: it will come, there were some good fixes right after .10 release
[21:54] <Riddell> nothing about 3.5.11 on kde-packager or release-team recently
[21:54] <apachelogger> techbase would know
[21:55] <Nightrose> last i heard it wasn't a clear no but nothing besides that
[21:55] <Tm_T> Riddell: prolly will take some time until it's "needed" even
[21:55] <apachelogger> anyway, who is going to contact the repo dude?
[21:55] <smarter> Riddell: is kde-packager an open list?
[21:55] <apachelogger> Arby is going to post a comment to the forums thread
[21:55] <apachelogger> smarter: no
[21:55] <Riddell> smarter: no, it's super secret
[21:56] <Arby> why? out of interest
[21:56] <smarter> oh :/
[21:56] <Riddell> because it's main use is to announce the secret pre-release of tars a week before the real release
[21:56] <Arby> fair enough
[21:56]  * apachelogger looks at smarter and thinks he would be perfect for contacting the repo dood
[21:56] <ryanakca> apachelogger: imho, it might have a bit more of an impact if someone from the KCC contacted him that just a regular ol' member... *shrug*
[21:57] <Nightrose> most impact would have a core dev imho
[21:57] <apachelogger> meh
[21:57] <Nightrose> ;-)
[21:57]  * apachelogger will write tomorrow
[21:57]  * Nightrose hands apachelogger a cookie
[21:57] <claydoh> he was open to fixing his maintainer info in his early stuff
[21:58] <claydoh> so he may be open to learning
[21:58]  * apachelogger will also make sure he adds a 15 line signature stating all the things that make him important, just in case core dev is still not enough
[21:58] <Nightrose> claydoh: still a lot of damage is done already probably :(
[21:58] <claydoh> I agree
[21:58] <apachelogger> it is
[21:58] <apachelogger> resolving this is gonna be fun
[21:58] <Nightrose> not
[21:58] <apachelogger> :P
[21:58]  * claydoh doen't want to watch
[21:58] <apachelogger> I am finished
[21:59] <Riddell> any other business?
[21:59] <apachelogger> Any other stuff we might want to talk about?
[21:59] <apachelogger> oh
[21:59]  * seele can imagine ScottK having a seizure over this
[21:59] <apachelogger> I actually have
[21:59] <Tm_T> apachelogger:
[21:59] <smarter> [22:50:26] <Nightrose> http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html?start=164
[21:59] <smarter> that's pretty scary stuff
[21:59] <apachelogger> today I got the latest issue of german LinuxUser magazine
[21:59] <apachelogger> they had an article about KDE 4 goodiness
[21:59] <JontheEchidna> oh yeah, I heard about that
[21:59] <apachelogger> and stressed the fact that 4.1 comes with a cube
[21:59] <apachelogger> so, where is my cube?! :P
[22:00] <JontheEchidna> lol
[22:00]  * Nightrose puts a cube next to apachelogger's cookies
[22:00] <Nightrose> :P
[22:00]  * apachelogger takes the cookie and hides inside the cube
[22:00] <apachelogger> \o/
[22:00] <apachelogger> happy
[22:00] <Riddell> hold your breath for the 4.2 beta with full cubeiness
[22:00] <Nightrose> yay
[22:01]  * Nightrose holds breath and hopes beta 1 is released soon
[22:01] <Riddell> if anyone is in France next week, let me know and I'll drop by
[22:01] <Riddell> or western Germany for that matter
[22:01] <apachelogger> smarter lives there
[22:02]  * Nightrose is not too far from france ;-)
[22:02] <apachelogger> Nightrose lives there
[22:02] <Tm_T> Riddell: no but I'm some thousand kilometer north from there, like to visit us too? (;)
[22:02] <Nightrose> Riddell: Karlsruhe if you are anywhere near
[22:02] <apachelogger> hm
[22:02] <apachelogger> lulz I guess
[22:02] <Riddell> Tm_T: another trip I think
[22:02] <Riddell> thanks for coming all
[22:02] <Tm_T> (:)
[22:02] <Nightrose> Riddell: Stuttgart works as well
[22:03] <Nightrose> ;-)
[22:03] <rgreening> cheers
[22:03]  * Nightrose waves
[22:03] <JontheEchidna> 2 hours, not bad ;-)
[22:03]  * rgreening looks for food
[22:03]  * ^seelenn^ looks for coffee
[22:03]  * claydoh cooks dinner...
[22:03] <apachelogger> nixternal: you are pretty good at guessing meeting time ;-)
[22:03] <ryanakca> Cheers, supper time :D
[22:04]  * Tm_T looks for his wife and the baby but cannot see them
[22:04] <Nightrose> Tm_T: ohhhhhhhh
[22:04] <Nightrose> the baby is born????
[22:04] <Nightrose> congratulations!
[22:04] <Tm_T> yup, saturday evening (:
[22:04] <Tm_T> thanks
[22:05] <Tm_T> both in hospital still, and I couldn't get in after school, was too late
[22:06] <Tm_T> anyway ->
[22:09]  * ^seelenn^ has coffee