[00:11] <jtechidna> Riddell: Error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/krita-data-kde4_1%3a1.9.98.2-0ubuntu3~intrepid2_all.deb : trying to overwrite `/usr/share/kde4/services/kritarulerassistanttool.desktop', which is also in package krita-kde4.
[00:20] <Riddell> jtechidna: humph
[00:20] <Riddell> jtechidna: what version of krita-kde4 did you have?
[00:30] <jtechidna> Riddell: 1:1.9.98.1-0ubuntu2
[00:58] <vorian> yo
[01:35] <nixternal> jesus, that stupid "No longer a KDE fan" blog post is hitting every major news outlet
[01:37] <Hobbsee> and doesn't allow comments.
[01:38] <Hobbsee> any interesting comments on it, from people?
[01:40] <vorian> i only /msg'd that because i don't want to get kicked out of ubuntu
[01:41] <vorian> :P
[01:41] <Hobbsee> seems a very cowardly thing to do, though.
[01:41] <Hobbsee> to write such a post, then forbid comments.
[01:41] <vorian> aye
[01:41] <vorian> but then again, he was a bit off to begin with
[01:41] <nixternal> Hobbsee: ya, I noticed the same thing as well
[01:42] <Hobbsee> makes me wish he wasn't a kubuntu member, behaving like that.
[01:43] <nixternal> Hobbsee: actually, I second that, and think he should be removed, since he pretty much admitted he isn't going to help out anymore
[01:43] <nixternal> +1 on removal :)
[01:43] <vorian> ha
[01:44] <nixternal> I want to be an Ubuntu rockstar :(
[01:44] <vorian> yeah, f'n bored is a rockstar though :)
[01:44] <Hobbsee> nixternal: now, that probably should have been proposed *before* the meeting :P
[01:45]  * Hobbsee also thinks he's trying to damage the project, writing rubbish like that.
[01:45] <nixternal> ditto
[01:45] <vorian> hmm
[01:46] <vorian> Let's hope the Kubuntu dev team has the sense to fork KDE 3.5.10 and base their once awesome distro on that instead of staying with KDE4.x.
[01:46] <vorian> "
[01:46] <vorian> erm, we passed that exit a long time ago
[01:49] <Hobbsee> vorian: not necessarily.
[01:49] <Hobbsee> vorian: I think there is already a kde3 fork, which was being discussed here earlier.
[01:50] <vorian> nooo
[01:50] <Hobbsee> vorian: the real test will be things like security updates.
[01:50]  * vorian cries
[01:50] <Hobbsee> well, if they throw it into a ppa, and they support it instead, there's no great problem.
[01:50] <vorian> i thought the talk was of a 3rd party repo using a epoch of 7
[01:51] <Hobbsee> ultimately, while people like it, people are likely to find more security problems with it, and other bugs (as seems to happen with all the major software projects)
[01:51] <vorian> and how that was not good etc...
[01:51] <vorian> yup
[01:51] <Hobbsee> which upstream won't be committed to fix, after they end support for it.
[01:51] <Hobbsee> yeah - but third party repo people came in here last night, and had discussions about how to make their stuff more sane
[01:52] <vorian> i see
[01:52] <vorian> i miss all the fun
[01:52] <vorian> I should quit my job
[01:52] <vorian> :)
[01:52] <Hobbsee> run an irc proxy, and read it later?
[01:52] <Hobbsee> that's the real solution.
[01:52] <vorian> haha
[01:52] <Hobbsee> that's what i do
[01:52] <Hobbsee> i'm australian.  i have to.
[01:52] <Hobbsee> most things happen while i'm asleep, y'know.
[01:52] <vorian> yep
[01:52] <jtechidna> the 3rd party repo dood was quite cooperative
[01:53] <jtechidna> hopefully proper packages will be hosted in a PPA soon
[01:53] <vorian> i'm on 24/7 actually, just don't always get a chance to catch up
[01:53] <Hobbsee> ahh
[01:53] <vorian> like ol jonnyboy here is heading up the beta packaging
[01:54] <jtechidna> might have to wait until tommorow unles tarballs get here soon
[01:54] <vorian> i'm in a bajillion channels too, that never helps
[01:54] <jtechidna> well, you guys can go and package but I won't be able to do review & sent to aplg until tomorrow
[01:54] <vorian> huh?
[01:55] <jtechidna> if the tarballs don't appear in ktown in a few hours I won't be able to do package review until tomorrow
[01:55] <vorian> hmmm
[02:03] <vorian> so what did the 3rd party guys say?
[02:05] <jtechidna> it's one guy
[02:05] <seele> Hobbsee: what anti-kde blog post?
[02:05] <freeflying> Riddell: arounds?
[02:05] <Hobbsee> seele: he posted it in here a few days ago.  http://ardchoille.nfshost.com/Blog/20081116
[02:05] <jtechidna> vorian: basically he wanted to know how to make them better. he has taken the repo offline temporarily and we outlined how to make his packages better
[02:07] <vorian> jtechidna: cool
[02:07] <seele> Hobbsee: is that someone who matters?  some of what he talks about isn't even accurate
[02:07] <vorian> who is it?
[02:07] <vorian> or he, rather
[02:07]  * jtechidna forgets his nick
[02:07] <Hobbsee> seele: used to be a contributor here.  ardchoille
[02:07] <jtechidna> it was a very randomy nick
[02:07] <Hobbsee> did a fair bit fo #kubuntu support, too
[02:08] <vorian> you mentioned ubuntuforums, do youhave alinky?
[02:08] <seele> oh well
[02:08] <Hobbsee> not sure if he's still around, as such
[02:08] <vorian> spa ceb ar please
[02:08] <Hobbsee> yup, he's in #ubuntu
[02:08] <stdin> seele: it's been posted to kubuntu-users@ too
[02:09] <stdin> so people are seeing/believing it
[02:09] <stdin> I would respond, but I make it a policy to ignore that list now
[02:10]  * Hobbsee wonders if that makes k-u better or wrose than u-d-d as a result.
[02:12] <seele> isnt k-u going to die soon?
[02:12] <Hobbsee> i wish.  but where's the evidence for that?
[02:13] <LeeJunFan> That must be "The fall of KDE?" thread?
[02:14] <stdin> yeah
[02:15] <Hobbsee> i recall having a thought a while ago,a botu completely filtering that list, or at least, mostl yfiltering it, and getting it back to a productive state.
[02:15] <Hobbsee> i suspect by now, we actually need to do that :(
[02:17] <ScottK> I particularly liked "... the developers who wrote the application should know their code, and if they know their code then they know where all the bugs are. If they don't know where all of the bugs are then they have no business writing software for the public."
[02:17] <LeeJunFan> yeah, that was my favorite too.
[02:17] <ScottK> I guess other projects only release bug free code.
[02:17] <jtechidna> I squirted OJ out my nose when I read that
[02:17] <LeeJunFan> must be. unless there are no real developers.
[02:18] <LeeJunFan> What if all this time many of us thought we were developers, but we weren't because we didn't know where all the bugs were?
[02:18] <Hobbsee> ScottK: i thought that was *particularly* priceless.
[02:18] <seele> Hobbsee: it was a topic in our last kubuntu meeting
[02:19] <Hobbsee> seele: oh, i must have missed it in the meeting minutes.  My bad :)
[02:19] <ScottK> Fortunately I think a lot of people read this bit and will conclude "Author is an idiot - this post may be safely ignored."
[02:19] <seele> ScottK: if developers know where all the "bugs" are, can they really be called bugs?
[02:20] <seele> "works as coded"
[02:20] <jtechidna> ScottK: I think those who will agree with him aare a lost cause anyway
[02:20] <ScottK> seele: Sure.  If the code is the design.
[02:20] <LeeJunFan> then they really are features.
[02:20] <ScottK> Formally one is supposed to have a documented design and it's only a bug if it doesn't work as designed.
[02:21] <ScottK> In projects where the code is the design documentation (they do exist), then it's essentially impossible to have a bug, just a design deficiency.
[02:22] <jtechidna> bugs are then, by definition, unknown behaviors
[02:22] <jtechidna> maybe unexpected would be a better word
[02:22] <ScottK> Yeah.
[02:22] <Hobbsee> what I don't understand is why these people think they have no choice.
[02:22]  * vorian is a bug
[02:23] <Hobbsee> 8.04 exists, and si supported for another year, by my calculations.
[02:23]  * ScottK swats vorian.
[02:23]  * vorian dies
[02:23] <ScottK> Hobbsee: But it's not the latest release and everyone kewl runs the latest release.
[02:23] <ScottK> Except the KDE part, of course.
[02:23] <Hobbsee> ScottK: yeah yeah...
[02:24] <LeeJunFan> Hobbsee: I think it's more about being let down personally. They have something they really do care deeply about, and they fear it's headed in the wrong direction, and because they aren't developers they don't know what else to do but bitch.
[02:24] <ScottK> We even warned them.
[02:24] <Hobbsee> LeeJunFan: that's true.
[02:24] <Hobbsee> LeeJunFan: yet they don't get involved in kde development, or even go directly to kde over it.
[02:24] <nixternal> I go straight to KDE development with it!
[02:25] <nixternal> ant html
[02:25] <nixternal> err, wrong winder
[02:25] <jtechidna> I liked the "it's not my duty to report bugs"
[02:25] <LeeJunFan> True. I do have to admit calling something a .0 release when it's missing many things that would 'complete' it is misleading. And their viewpoint is why would kubuntu give us something unfinished, etc..
[02:25] <nixternal> and they are probably the same who clicked the "Do not send" reports to Microsoft as well
[02:26] <Hobbsee> jtechidna: yes.  "its only my responsibility to bitch on blogs"
[02:26] <ScottK> LeeJunFan: There was a lot of discussion about what 4.0 was meant to be before it was released.  There's a reason I never ran it.
[02:27] <LeeJunFan> I think a lot of it too is that people don't read enough. They see kubuntu 8.10 on digg and it's download and install time w/o even going to kubuntu.com or reading about the state of kde4.
[02:27] <LeeJunFan> ScottK: exactly.
[02:27] <nixternal> I have run it since 3.93 :)
[02:27] <nixternal> eww it was horrid then...still had kicker
[02:28] <seele> nixternal: 4.1 was a stretch.. i coudlnt run it until 4.1.1
[02:28] <LeeJunFan> But then that's the misleading part on kde's part by giving a .0 which usually means to most people it's mostly complete but probably buggy. Certainly 4.1.2 should be complete. And if kubuntu is putting it on by default it MUST be ready.
[02:28] <ScottK> LeeJunFan: I think we were pretty clear in the release announcment about that too.
[02:28] <nixternal> to me, 4.1.2 was better in Hardy than it was in Intrepid, but I wouldn't doubt that apachelogger did some of his magic foo to it
[02:28] <seele> did any distribution even ship 4.0?  kubuntu had packages and the remix, but Intrepid is our first release
[02:29] <seele> what did mandriva ship?
[02:29] <Hobbsee> wow, and people complain too that the kde4 hardy support isn't being continued.
[02:29] <ScottK> seele: I think Fedora did.
[02:29] <nixternal> my dual monitor support kicked arse big time, and I had a spinning cube
[02:29] <seele> hmm
[02:29] <seele> ScottK: highly modified though?  4.0 was half 3.5.8 anyway
[02:29] <LeeJunFan> ScottK: I don't disagree that kubuntu was forthcoming, but most people skip learning and go right to jumping in the water. Then are surprised by the number of sharks lurking below.
[02:30] <ScottK> LeeJunFan: My sympathy for people who willfully blindfold themselves and then complain they are ignorant is limited.
[02:30] <ScottK> seele: Dunno.
[02:30] <seele> LeeJunFan: that's the risk of open source and why people who need stable systems should find a trusted vendor and not download everything linked on the internet
[02:31] <seele> even in 3.5, KDE had a mindful target of early adopters
[02:31] <Hobbsee> ScottK: there are people who whinge because the release notes aren't obvious enough for ubuntu, too.  go figure.
[02:31] <LeeJunFan> seele: well, kubuntu IS their trusted vendor.
[02:31] <ScottK> Hobbsee:
[02:31] <seele> LeeJunFan: then they ought to go to the website and read the release notes.. not click the iso link on Digg
[02:32] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I do think we could do a better job of writing the bad news part of the release notes.
[02:32] <Hobbsee> ScottK: that's true.
[02:32] <seele> LeeJunFan: Intrepid is the first KDE4 release.  The Remix CD came with plenty of caveats
[02:32] <Hobbsee> ScottK: (i thought you knew about them too)
[02:32] <NCommander> ScottK, care to sponsor an upload? (kdelibs)
[02:33] <seele> those people who dont want kde4 shouldnt have installed intrepid
[02:33] <ScottK> Clearly.
[02:33] <seele> and if they can't get over it, then they can either run 3.5.10 for the next two years or use gnome
[02:33] <Hobbsee> seele: but...ZOMGUPDATESMUSTHAVEOMGNOW!!!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!!!
[02:33] <ScottK> NCommander: Would you mail me the debdiff or the bug link?
[02:33] <NCommander> I need to wait for it to finish test building first on amd64
[02:34] <LeeJunFan> seele: I realize that, I'm just being open and seeing it from both sides. I read, I run both stable and devel versions to keep tabs on things and submit bug reports. I'm just saying joe blow sees a .0 or .1 release and they think, "Woohoo! must be ready!", then they see that kubuntu adopted is as the default, well then it must be ready.
[02:34] <seele> kubuntu balances itself between community and kde.  it supported the community for an extra release by giving it 3.5.9 for Hardy, but not it's time to go back to being a "KDE" distribution and ship what KDE is developing
[02:34] <seele> if people don't like what KDE has become then maybe KDE isn't for them
[02:34] <LeeJunFan> So then they download with assumptions based on their past where kubuntu did release with the most robust/stable, and pretty much all other software with .1 release is finished, and they are in shock.
[02:35] <seele> s/not/now
[02:35] <stdin> Kubuntu is only as stable as Ubuntu-base + KDE
[02:35] <jtechidna> unless networkmanager + bluetooth get broken^
[02:35] <jtechidna> :P
[02:35] <LeeJunFan> seele: I agree with that fact. Like I said - I'm just explaining why people are angry. I'm here and running kde4 :)
[02:35] <seele> LeeJunFan: to be fair, a lot of the problems in intrepid had to do with translations which werent KDE's fault
[02:35] <LeeJunFan> and I have been for a long time now.
[02:36] <seele> and all the Plasma complaints (that i heard) were again, Kubuntu trying to balance the good of the community with KDE.  We *temporarily* disabled some stuff in plasma because it wasn't quite ready.
[02:36] <LeeJunFan> seele: I know the most annoying parts of kde4 for me are features and programs that were available with 3 and aren't in 4.
[02:36] <seele> yeah :-/
[02:37] <Hobbsee> seele: i think that's an important point - kubuntu *is* a "KDE" distribution, to ship what KDE is developing. it's not a "users" distribution, as some people on the list seem to think.
[02:37] <LeeJunFan> ie, quanta that works with fish://, dolphin or konqueror that does video thumbnails, ability to configure a lot of printer options is missing, etc.
[02:37] <Hobbsee> if it was a users distribution, we'd need a hell of a lot more manpower with people who knew the codebase, so they could fix bugs relating to whatever users wanted at a given time.
[02:38] <seele> Hobbsee: if it were a users' distribution, it would end up a fork like that pidgin crap that happened a while ago
[02:38] <ScottK> LeeJunFan: But don't we still have the KDE3 Quanta in Intrepid?
[02:39] <LeeJunFan> ScottK: yes, but the kioslaves for kde3 libs are missing. So remote protocols don't work.
[02:39] <seele> LeeJunFan: yeah.. printing was an unfortunately casulty of intrepid. at least it sortof works instead of not even existing
[02:39] <ScottK> LeeJunFan: RIght.  Make sense.
[02:39] <Hobbsee> seele: exactly.
[02:40] <Hobbsee> seele: that part probably could be publicised a bit more - what kubuntu is intended to be, and what it will automatically ship.
[02:40] <seele> it probably gets overshadowed by ubuntu who (imho) coddles its users
[02:40] <LeeJunFan> Thing is, while it sucks listening to all the complaining, know this - curiosity will get these people back later. And I think kde 4.2 is going to address 90% of the issues.
[02:41] <seele> ubuntu has a huge user community which gives them a loud voice
[02:41] <LeeJunFan> So by next release - they'll probably all be happy again.
[02:41] <LeeJunFan> Then those same people will be like, "Oooh, how did I ever live w/o lancelot?"
[02:41] <Hobbsee> hehe
[02:42] <Hobbsee> seele: that's true - but they still make some unpopular decisiosn (no ekiga 3.0, for eg)
[02:42] <Hobbsee> no OO.o
[02:43] <seele> whoa, they didnt ship OO.o?
[02:43] <jtechidna> not 3.0
[02:43] <Hobbsee> seele: not 3.0
[02:43] <seele> why not?
[02:43] <seele> i thought 3.0 was supposed to be good
[02:43] <ScottK> seele: Look at when it was released.
[02:43] <LeeJunFan> it released like 3 days after freeze I think.
[02:43] <seele> aah
[02:44] <LeeJunFan> Actually I think it was after RC.
[02:44] <Hobbsee> it was very late
[02:44] <Hobbsee> i think it was just after RC, yes
[02:45] <LeeJunFan> At least it's easy to get installed.
[02:45] <ScottK> Is there a reason kdebase is still on 4.1.2 and not updated to the 4.2 snapshot?
[02:45] <ScottK> jtechidna: ^^
[02:45] <LeeJunFan> I was wondering that too.
[02:45] <jtechidna> Riddell updated a few to 4.1.73 but I don't think he got to all of them
[02:46] <ScottK> Well having half 4.1 and half 4.2 kinda sucks for the Alpha 1 freeze.  Anyone working on it?
[02:47] <vorian> we need the source packages
[02:47] <jtechidna> ScottK: when is freeze?
[02:47] <vorian> jtechidna: yesterday :S
[02:47] <ScottK> Now
[02:47] <jtechidna> :x
[02:47] <jtechidna> we were going to start packaging beta1 tomorrow
[02:47] <ScottK> It's a soft freeze, so stuff can still be uploaded.
[02:48] <jtechidna> Riddell has alpha1 + 1 week's worth of dev currently
[02:48] <ScottK> Right, but we can't upload the beta until after the Alpha.
[02:48] <jtechidna> dang
[02:48] <ScottK> jtechidna: I'm assuming we have the beta tarballs in advance as usual.
[02:49] <vorian> *will* have
[02:49] <jtechidna> ScottK: tagging was today. I'm not sure that we have tarballs yet since I don't have ktown access
[02:49] <vorian> not yet
[02:49]  * vorian shuts up
[02:50] <ScottK> jtechidna: Right, so if it's tagged today, I'm pretty sure it doesn't get released until after Thursday.
[02:50] <jtechidna> right, we will get tarballs before release
[02:50] <ScottK> So that means not for the Alpha.
[02:50] <vorian> http://tinyurl.com/6b95gb ScottK
[02:51] <Riddell> alpha?  there is no alpha
[02:51] <Riddell> tars for beta are up
[02:51] <vorian> w00t
[02:51] <ScottK> So we either need to finish the snapshot or tell Slanagasek that Kubuntu is sitting Alpha 1 out.
[02:51] <ScottK> Riddell: Jaunty Alpha 1?
[02:51] <Riddell> oh, right, dunno about that
[02:52] <ScottK> Riddell: Well that's supposed to be Thursday and we're currently part 4.1 and part 4.2 in Jaunty.  Doesn't do so well for installability.
[02:53] <Riddell> installability should be fine
[02:54] <ScottK> Riddell: Not according to the archive 'Problems' page.
[02:54] <Riddell> meh, what does it know
[02:55] <ScottK> Usually a fair amount.
[03:31] <ScottK> NCommander: Did you decide not to have me upload your fix?
[03:31] <NCommander> ScottK, hit a snag, and working on it still
[03:31] <ScottK> NCommander: OK.
[03:31] <NCommander> I'm just waiting for the final rebuild to finish
[03:43] <NCommander> ScottK, I can't get a clean debdiff
[03:43]  * NCommander remembers we had this issue before with kdelibs
[04:03] <genii> Is there some replacement for kpilot in 8.10 ?
[04:49] <seele> ugh.. throat is sore
[04:49] <seele> one drawback of working from home is that i never talk
[04:52] <ScottK> Yep.
[04:53] <ScottK> Although I generally find that more of a feature than a bug.
[05:00] <seele> when your voice cracks in the middle of a presentation because you never use it.. i would call that a bug ;)
[05:03] <yuriy> a bug flew in your mouth while giving a presentation?  ;)
[05:14] <ScottK> Yeah.  I guess.
[05:16] <rgreening> anyone have any idea what I have done wrong here ... http://paste.ubuntu.com/74642/
[05:20] <ScottK> rgreening: Stayed up to late and missed your beauty sleep?
[05:21] <rgreening> yep. trying to make a gui for ufw... mostly to learn Python and pyKDE4...
[05:21] <ScottK> You know there is one already, right?
[05:21] <rgreening> anyway, thew gui loads and when I click the X to close it, it crashes or gives a glibc double linked error
[05:21] <rgreening> ScottK: yeah, gtk based
[05:22] <rgreening> gufw and has a shitload of gnome deps
[05:22] <ScottK> Ah.  Right.  Good point.
[05:22] <ScottK> I've no idea on your actual problem.
[05:22] <rgreening> the goal is to have a pyKDe ver, and eventually make a kcm module for it...
[05:23] <rgreening> if I can learn this and get past this stupid friking crash
[05:23] <ScottK> Wish I could help.
[05:24] <rgreening> _Sime: you around?
[05:26] <rgreening> ScottK: got it...
[05:26] <ScottK> Kewl.
[05:26] <rgreening> stupid me used a QMainWindow instead of KMainWindow
[05:26] <rgreening> haha
[05:26] <rgreening> whee
[05:27] <rgreening> stupid mixing of KDE and Qt classes
[05:27] <rgreening> lol
[06:33] <NCommander> ScottK, if you want to upload kdelibs, I put it in my PPA, I can't generate a clean debdiff since autoconf decides it wants to constantly rebuild itself during clean
[07:45] <dentaku66> quit
[09:27] <slougi> hello devels, sorry to disturb you. i just want to ask whether anyone is currently looking into the borked qt4 phonon. qmake for example generates invalid makefiles when phonon is requested.
[11:11] <Riddell> slougi: we don't use qt4 phonon
[11:29] <hunger> How is the kde upgrade going in jaunty?
[11:29]  * hunger is stuck halfway through:-|
[11:50] <cbr> kdebase isn't done yet imo
[12:00] <emonkey> thx for the kofficeb3 packages in backports :)
[12:18] <slougi> Riddell: qmake generating invalid makefiles is ok then? :)
[13:41] <Riddell> I think we're about done for KDE/Qt merges in main
[13:41] <Riddell> other than some of the big modules which will get done as beta 1
[13:42] <Riddell> ScottK: although someone called "Donald Scott Kitterman" has a few with his name by them :)
[13:42] <ScottK> Do I?
[13:42] <ScottK> Last I looked I didn't.  I'll have a look.
[13:42] <JontheEchidna> http://hall-of-fame.ubuntu.com/
[13:42] <Riddell> as uploader only in some cases
[13:43] <ScottK> Riddell: I figured that unless we got in extremis those weren't my problem yet.
[13:43] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: you're famous!
[13:44] <JontheEchidna> ^_^
[13:44] <ScottK> Riddell: I didn't see any KDE/Qt ones there.
[13:44] <JontheEchidna> kdebase is #7 in the upstream bug rockstars list
[13:45] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: I do find it odd to call each source package a project though.
[13:45] <Riddell> ScottK: right we're good for them, just e-mail ones and whatever pyenchant is
[13:45] <JontheEchidna> yeah, apparently this is a new page so I guess it has some kinks
[13:45] <ScottK> Riddell: pyenchant is blocked on seb128 doing enchant.
[13:45] <ScottK> The spamassassin one just popped up.
[13:46]  * ScottK glares at NCommander to get busy on fetchmail.
[13:47] <Riddell> I wonder if we should remove kiosktool
[13:48] <ScottK> Now that I've looked, the spamassassin one is just Debian grabbed my RBL update patch and uploaded it.
[13:48] <ScottK> Makes the merge easy.
[13:49] <Riddell> ScottK: a sync?
[13:51] <ScottK> Riddell: No.  There's one other small change they decline to pick up. I leave an alternate dependency in there on something (I can't recall which and I haven't checked yet) for easy backporting that the Debian guy won't do.
[14:49] <jjesse> ok subscribed myself to jaunty specs for uds
[14:58] <ScottK> Is powerdevil not in KDE 4.2 yet (or is it not in kdebase)?
[15:04] <Riddell> kdeutils I expect
[15:05] <ScottK> Actually it looks like -workspace.
[15:05] <ScottK> At least according to the 4.2 feature plan.
[15:07] <ScottK> Which isn't going to build until kde4bindings does, I guess.
[15:09] <ScottK> Which might actually work now.
[15:11] <Riddell> ScottK: "nepomukqueryclient" no idea where that is
[15:11] <ScottK> Riddell: powerdevil is in the kdebase-workspace tarball, but we don't build it (not in debian/control).
[15:12]  * ScottK has seen that before.
[15:12]  * ScottK thinks.
[15:12]  * ScottK gets more coffee.
[15:12] <jjesse> mmm coffee
[15:12] <jjesse> can you ever have too much?
[15:12] <Riddell> nepomukqueryclient is in kdebase-workspace-libs4+5
[15:12] <Riddell> jjesse: I need to introduce you to Irn Bru
[15:13] <seele> jjesse: dont do it unless you like the idea of heart burn!
[15:14] <Riddell> hmm, kdebase-workspace needs pykde and kdebindings needs kdebase-workspace
[15:14] <ScottK> jjesse: You can.  http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC949.HTM
[15:14] <seele> Riddell: you shouldn't make it a habit of consuming something of a color not found in nature ;P
[15:15] <ScottK> Riddell: kde4bindings built at least on lpia somehow.
[15:15] <ScottK> I take that back.
[15:15] <Riddell> seele: iron is very natural and an essential part of the body
[15:16] <Riddell> ScottK: I think kdebase-workspace just needs python not pykde
[15:16] <jjesse> what's irn bru
[15:16] <jjesse> is that a scottish coffee?
[15:16] <Riddell> something like that :)
[15:16] <jjesse> can i find it in the states?
[15:17] <Riddell> no, it's banned
[15:17] <ScottK> Well it still build-dep on python-kde4.
[15:17] <jjesse> wow, don't know if i want it then
[15:17] <ScottK> Riddell: I'll have a look.
[15:17] <Riddell> ScottK: let me fix that
[15:17]  * jjesse heads over to google
[15:17] <ScottK> Riddell: OK
[15:17] <ScottK> Riddell: Care to add building powerdevil while you're at it?
[15:18] <jjesse> according to wikipedia it contains a carcinogenic
[15:18] <jjesse> sounds yummy
[15:19] <Riddell> ScottK: powerdevil is already in kdebase-workspace-bin (where debian has it)
[15:20] <ScottK> Oh.
[15:21] <ScottK> Riddell: So I guess power management isn't just for laptops any more.
[15:21] <seele> Riddell: P4R coloring  is carcinogenic :P
[15:22]  * seele has doubts about Yellow 6 too
[15:22] <ScottK> Yellow 6 is legal though (I think)
[15:23] <seele> i think so too.. it just causes hyperactivity and allergic reaction.  nothing so serious as CANCER
[15:24] <Riddell> so that's why I'm always so hyperactive
[15:25] <seele> at least it's not hives
[15:28] <Riddell> anyone know where pbuilder puts it build logs during the build?
[15:32] <Riddell> ah, in /var/cache/pbuilder/result, sensible
[15:32] <Riddell> and it doesn't work with just python
[15:33] <Riddell> _Sime: is there a circular dependency between kdebindings and kdebase-workspace?
[15:36] <ScottK> seele: I've also seen that in Yellow 5.
[15:36] <ScottK> Riddell: No where unless you tell it to and then where you say (IIRC).
[15:37] <ScottK> Riddell: In that case (powerdevil in workspace-bin) we'll need to conflice/replace on powerdevil since we have it in Intrepid.
[15:44] <Riddell> done
[15:44] <Riddell> pbuilding again, without python-plasma
[16:27] <rgreening> Riddell: it that the 4.1.3 or the 4.1.80?
[16:27] <Riddell> rgreening: 4.1.73
[16:27] <rgreening> Riddell: no need for python-plasma... and libplasma moved to kdelibs5
[16:28] <rgreening> Riddell: so dep issue should be gone
[16:28] <Riddell> kdebase-workspace still seems to have the plasma python stuff
[16:29] <loicmarteau> Riddell:perhaps my question in kubuntu is more approriate here
[16:29] <rgreening> Riddell: yes, thats correct. The script engines live in workspace. However, libplasma moved to kdelibs
[16:29] <rgreening> Riddell: and that was the original source of the circular dep. kdebindings and workspace dep'd on each other and now should not.
[16:31] <DaSkreech> loicmarteau: Already answered in #kubuntu
[16:31] <Riddell> rgreening: I think it's a different issue, workspace still needs pykde and kde4bindings now needs libnepomukclient (from kdebase-workspace-libs4+5
[16:32] <rgreening> oh... ok
[16:34] <DaSkreech> Will strigi be on by defalt in 4.2 ?
[16:36] <Riddell> havn't thought about it
[16:36] <Riddell> depends how well it works for one thing
[16:37] <Riddell> I'm yet to test the krunner
[16:37] <Riddell> and how much resources it takes up for another
[16:37] <TekkieFreak> Hey everyone...
[16:37] <TekkieFreak> what's up?
[16:40] <Riddell> TekkieFreak: jaunty merges
[16:41] <TekkieFreak> Ah...sounds good.
[16:43] <loicmarteau> Riddell: the same for the whole kde :p ?
[16:45] <loicmarteau> In fact my use case is not exactly only related to kubuntu i think
[16:45] <loicmarteau> i would like to have some script that install all the needed stuff with the mnimum of job to do
[16:46] <loicmarteau> i use kde from trunk
[16:46]  * Riddell refers the honourable gentleman to the answers given some moments ago
[16:46] <Riddell> there are scripts to build from trunk, kdesvn or whatever its called
[16:47] <loicmarteau> Riddel: yes jonhatan i read it on kubuntu thanks for your answer
[16:47] <loicmarteau> yep i used to use it at start
[16:47] <loicmarteau> now i use it only for qt-copy
[16:48] <loicmarteau> i use some script i have put in my .bashrc to : cmakekde works is really cool
[16:48] <loicmarteau> -to +too
[16:49] <loicmarteau> as an example i have some problems with package who depends on qt
[16:49] <loicmarteau> qca, pyqt, etc
[16:50] <cbr> kdebase's tarball is already uploaded?
[16:50] <loicmarteau> perhaps we can do better ?!
[16:51] <cbr> oh, and btw, what is 4.1.73? the changelog says "alpha snapshot" but "beta1" of 4.2 is supposed to be released?
[16:52] <JontheEchidna> beta1 is 4.1.80
[16:52] <JontheEchidna> we will commence packaging shortly
[16:52] <cbr> oh
[16:52] <cbr> better not upgrade then
[16:53] <loicmarteau> ^ this is related to kde itself not kubuntu of course
[16:57] <loicmarteau> about dependencies (kdesvn doesnt deal with dependencies) perhaps we can create a package in come launchpad directories that do the job install dev-libraires without installing any kde packages directly
[16:57] <loicmarteau> -come +some
[16:58] <loicmarteau> such package can perhaps install source files for libraries who depends on qt
[16:58] <loicmarteau> and perhaps in final give us a script to compile all of that
[17:01] <Riddell> wibble, libkhtml isn't linking to libkjs in kdelibs4c2a
[17:22] <doko> Riddell: libqt4-dev is lacking /usr/share/qt4/doc/qt4.doc, which is leading to build failures. Any idea why? unstable and intrepid do have this file
[17:24] <Riddell> doko: I don't see it in intrepid
[17:25] <doko> Riddell: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=qt4.tag&mode=exactfilename&suite=intrepid&arch=any
[17:26] <Riddell> that's installed in debian/rules
[17:26] <Riddell> let me look in jaunty
[17:31] <Riddell> was http://paste.ubuntu.com/74853/  now http://paste.ubuntu.com/74854/
[17:33] <Riddell> from debian changelog
[17:33] <Riddell>   * Remove doxygen build dependency.
[17:33] <Riddell>     It is useless to generate a tag file as Qt is shipped with qt.tags file.
[17:35] <Riddell> http://packages.debian.org/sid/i386/libqt4-dev/filelist doesn't list it
[17:35] <Riddell> doko: what's failing to build?
[17:39] <doko> Riddell: soprano
[17:40] <Riddell> mornfall: enrico says you're the man to know about debtags failing to build debtags.cc:232: error: 'struct ept::core::PackageState' has no member named 'isUpgradable'
[17:42] <doko> Riddell: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=qt4.tag&mode=path&suite=unstable&arch=any
[17:42] <doko> it's there
[17:42] <Riddell> that's out of date I'm sure
[17:45] <Riddell> soprano has a rule to copy /usr/share/qt4/doc/qt4.tag
[17:47] <Riddell> doko: so I guess qt4 needs fixed to actually install the tag file and soprano needs updated to know where the new tag file is
[17:47] <Riddell> fabo: you make the qt4 tag file change, is it just an oversite that it doesn't get installed?
[17:48] <Riddell> it gets installed to  $(DEB_DESTDIR)/usr/share/qt4/doc/html/qt.tags
[17:48] <Riddell> but then would need an entry in the .install file (or installed to debian/qt4-dev/...)
[17:49] <Riddell> doko: seems like fabo is idle, I can just make the change to qt4 and soprano
[17:50] <doko> Riddell: sure, please go ahead
[17:53] <doko> Riddell: your new kdebase-workspace b-d on libplasma-dev. will this be built separately?
[17:54] <doko> Riddell: and do you have an idea why we do see these build failures on kdelibs and kde4libs just on armel?
[17:55] <Riddell> doko: libplasma is now from kde4libs
[17:55] <doko> ahh, ok
[17:56] <Riddell> I'm seeing build failures all over the place currently, it's very frustrating
[18:03] <ScottK> Riddell: Now that we have (at least in source) mind if I drop guidance-power-manager from the Kubuntu seeds?
[18:03] <ScottK> ... powerdevil ...
[18:04] <Riddell> ScottK: go ahead
[18:04] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.  I'll enjoy this one.
[18:05] <Riddell> hey, guidance-power-manager is ok
[18:05] <ScottK> Riddell: True.  My feelings about it are mainly bleed over from displayconfig.
[18:05] <ScottK> It's not fair, but life rarely is.
[18:13] <ScottK> Riddell: Done.  Even though it's not so bad, I still vote for removal.  It's relatively high maintenance and I think it'll just bitrot in Universe.
[18:18] <smarter> removal of gpm?
[18:19] <ScottK> Yes.
[18:19] <ScottK> It's replaced by powerdevil in Jaunty.
[18:23] <smarter> oh, I guess we can say him goodbye and thanks for all the patching needs then :)
[18:23] <smarter> it's probably the first pykde app I patched, with almost no knowledge of python and qt :p
[18:24] <ScottK> So far it's the only part of KDE I've patched the internals of.
[18:28] <nixternal> all registered up for the blueprints at UDS
[18:29] <Riddell> thanks nixternal
[18:29]  * nixternal thinks we should include marketing and documentation possibly
[18:29] <nixternal> documentation for sure, which I am sure we could probably just do something impromptu if necessary
[18:34] <Riddell> nixternal: register a spec
[18:43] <DaSkreech> yay nixternal the documentor is bakk!
[18:45] <nixternal> you know it!
[18:45]  * nixternal wants to do more development this go round though
[18:47] <nixternal> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-jaunty-documentation
[18:47] <nixternal> ^^ for those wanting to help jjesse and I will the documentation stuff
[19:10] <NCommander> ScottK, ?
[19:19] <^seelenn^> nixternal: I might be interested in that. I'd be happy to provide web help getting the kubuntu index page working
[19:19] <^seelenn^> what do you need?
[19:23] <jjesse> afternoon
[19:32] <ScottK> NCommander: You touched it last.
[19:32] <NCommander> ScottK, oh, merge from Debian?
[19:32] <ScottK> NCommander: Yeah.
[19:41] <bfrog> out of curiousity why was kubuntu 8.10 shipped with 4.1.2 even when 4.1.3 was out for sometime?
[19:41] <bfrog> especially considering 4.1.3 had some significant bug fixes, like dual monitor plasma bugs, which I filed
[19:43] <JontheEchidna> both were released on the 30th
[19:43] <JontheEchidna> actually, 4.1.3 was released on the 5th of november
[19:43] <JontheEchidna> 5 days after release
[19:46] <jjesse> and you have to take into account freezes, both string and feature and the freeze for the cds to be spun up
[19:46] <JontheEchidna> well there's not much you can do about that if it's released after intrepid is, now can you? :P
[19:47] <rgreening> smarter: any reason why having a KMainWindow and KSystemTrayIcon in my App(QObject) class would cause a crash on exit?
[19:47] <ScottK> bfrog: 4.1.3 is available in intrepid-backports.
[19:47] <bfrog> yeah I know, but its not the default an I had to use the non-live-cd installer because of the brokenness
[19:47] <bfrog> s/an/and
[19:47] <seele> bfrog: 14:46 < JontheEchidna> well there's not much you can do about that if it's released after intrepid is, now can you? :P
[19:47] <ScottK> bfrog: Well we're working on getting it tested with the idea of moving it to -updates (which is on by default).
[19:47] <bfrog> oh haha
[19:48] <bfrog> that sucks
[19:48] <bfrog> yeah, that'll be good
[19:48] <bfrog> I guess distro's like arch have it easy in these cases
[19:48] <smarter> rgreening: hmm, dunno, it works without the ksystrayicon?
[19:48] <bfrog> but then again, as a user sometimes things would break with regard to the binary drivers which sucked
[19:49] <rgreening> smarter: no, the opposite
[19:49] <Riddell> hi devinheitmueller
[19:49] <rgreening> App(QObject): with the systray works. If I then create a KMainWindow, it works, except on exit I get a SIGSEGV 11
[19:49] <rgreening> smarter: ^
[19:50] <Riddell> devinheitmueller: so aye, I'm updating kaffeine and we can backport that update into intrepid so it's available to exiting users, but for now I'm fighting kdelibs random breakage
[19:50] <Riddell> devinheitmueller: what happening with kaffeine and KDE 4?
[19:50]  * smarter updates his ufw-kde branch
[19:50]  * rgreening now loves bzr and lp
[19:50] <devinheitmueller> It's going nowhere very fast.  The KDE 4 experimental port is what appears to be a full rewrite.
[19:50] <smarter> :)
[19:50] <devinheitmueller> I've contributes some patches, but it is *very* alpha.
[19:51] <Riddell> devinheitmueller: is it using phonon?
[19:51] <devinheitmueller> Yes, but Phonon has issues too and is missing a bunch of functionality that would be required for Kaffeine to be feature-equivalent to 0.8.7.
[19:51] <devinheitmueller> The phonon-experimental branch has most of what will be needed, but that won't be available for quite a while.
[19:52] <smarter> rgreening: looks like it doesn't crash here
[19:52] <Riddell> devinheitmueller: what's missing?  dvb I guess
[19:52] <devinheitmueller> Well, we're doing the DVB layer in Kaffeine and passing the MPEG off to Phonon.
[19:53] <devinheitmueller> Even there though, alot of stuff relating to audio stream selection, subtitles, etc are not present except in phonon-experimental.
[19:54] <rgreening> smarter, right-click the systray icon and close
[19:54] <smarter> did that
[19:54] <rgreening> and no crash?
[19:54] <smarter> closed as expected, nothing strange on the console output
[19:54] <rgreening> hmm
[19:54] <smarter> no idea if it crashed and apport hide it
[19:55] <smarter> but it probably didn't
[19:55] <devinheitmueller> I'm in favor of using Phonon in general, but until it gets to be a stable base I think Kaffeine 0.8.x will continue to see new releases/features.
[19:55] <rgreening> I'm getting the crash from KCrash handler
[19:55] <rgreening> smarter: ^
[19:55] <smarter> oh, it crashed this time
[19:56] <smarter> or more exactly, I got this on the console: "*** glibc detected *** python: corrupted double-linked list: 0x0000000001a3d070 ***
[19:56] <smarter> but no KCrash
[19:56]  * smarter ctrl+c
[19:56] <rgreening> smarter: yeah, I get either or...
[19:56] <smarter> sys.exit(app.exec_())
[19:57] <Arby> seele: got time to discuss system-config-printer-kde?
[19:57] <smarter> that looks strange
[19:57] <rgreening> mostly the KCrash... sometimes the glibc. It's like a ref to a pointer exists after exit
[19:58] <smarter> sys.exit shouldn't be needed
[19:58] <smarter> just app.exec_()
[19:58] <rgreening> smarter: really? I got this from several examples (from Riddell's code)..
[19:59] <smarter> guidance-power-manager doesn't use it at least
[19:59] <Riddell> sys.exit(app.exec_())  is so that it exists using the code given from app.exec
[19:59] <rgreening> hmm... let me try
[19:59] <Riddell> exits
[19:59] <rgreening> right
[19:59] <smarter> oh, ok :)
[20:00] <seele> Arby: sure
[20:00] <rgreening> Riddell: can you have a quick read back over my question to smarter.. maybe you have come across this before...
[20:00]  * rgreening is at a loss.
[20:00] <Arby> seele: great first up the obligatory screenshots to see if it looks as intended
[20:00] <Arby> seele http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9350/newprintervv3.jpg
[20:01] <Arby> followed by http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5948/myprinterpo0.jpg
[20:02] <smarter> Arby: is zaphod a dual-screen machine? :)
[20:02] <Arby> no
[20:02] <Arby> why?
[20:03] <Arby> zaphod is a widescreen laptop
[20:03] <seele> Arby: so far so good.  although in the second screenshot, the Change button should have an ellipsis after it (Change...)
[20:03] <seele> there might be a better label too, but it's good for now
[20:03] <smarter> Arby: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaphod_Beeblebrox
[20:03] <Riddell> rgreening: that sort of crash is typically something to do with the order that the KApplication appears
[20:03] <Arby> seele: ok that's easily fixed
[20:03] <Riddell> or KAboutData
[20:03] <Arby> smarter: yes, fair point
[20:03] <Riddell> or something
[20:03] <Arby> :)
[20:03] <Riddell> rgreening: ping _Sime's he's good for that
[20:04] <Arby> seele on the My Printer page the old version had a 'device uri' field
[20:04] <rgreening> _Sime: pingy-pongy me did something wrongy!
[20:04] <Arby> seele: what was the reason for removing it?
[20:04] <_Sime> rgreening: hi
[20:04] <_Sime> rgreening: where is the code?
[20:05] <rgreening> hey _Sime. in lp...
[20:05] <rgreening> launchpad.ne/ufw-kde
[20:05] <rgreening> s/ne/net even
[20:05] <rgreening> lp:~kubuntu-members/ufw-kde/trunk
[20:05] <seele> Arby: i might have just missed it
[20:05] <Riddell> bzr co lp:ufw-kde
[20:05] <seele> Arby: those wireframes are quite old :)
[20:06]  * Riddell out
[20:06] <Arby> seele ok, that would explain a few things :)
[20:06] <Arby> seele any reason why I shouldn't add it back
[20:06] <seele> Arby: go for it if you know of a good location
[20:06] <Arby> it's used quite a lot in the underlying code
[20:07] <Arby> seele is under Printer Description ok by you?
[20:07]  * rgreening is realizing more every day how little I know about KDE/Qt/Python...
[20:07] <Arby> rgreening: welcome to my world :)
[20:07] <seele> Arby: sure.  although, remind me what device uri is?  do local printers have it?
[20:08] <Arby> seele as far as I can tell yes.
[20:08] <Arby> I think all printers have it
[20:08] <_Sime> rgreening: ufwkde.py?
[20:08] <rgreening> _Sime yeah
[20:08] <Arby> for example a pdf printer has cups-pdf:/
[20:08] <_Sime> rgreening: first move the bulk on the code into a main() function.
[20:08] <rgreening> The issue I believe is in app.py smarter
[20:09] <_Sime> rgreening: and add "global app" at the start of the main().
[20:09] <rgreening> ?
[20:09] <_Sime> rgreening: don't use sys.exit().
[20:09] <Arby> seele next one http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1596/policiesgt7.jpg
[20:10] <Arby> seele, in the old version there were checkboxes for 'Enabled', 'Accepting' and 'Shared'
[20:10] <Arby> seele were they deliberately removed or just missed?
[20:11] <Arby> there was also an Error Policy dropdown and an operation policy dropdown.
[20:11] <seele> Arby: i think the new fashion for the edit list thing is to put add and remove on the bottom
[20:11] <rgreening> oh my, I think I se where I made a error.. let me check
[20:11] <Arby> seele, as in side by side underneath?
[20:11] <seele> yeah
[20:11] <Arby> that's straightforward
[20:12] <seele> Arby: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/HIG/SOU_Workspace/Administer_Objects_Final_Pattern
[20:12] <seele> the pattern hasnt been reviewed, but three other people have looked at it and agreed on it, so it must be OK :)
[20:12] <rgreening> smarter, _Sime, Riddell: fixed...
[20:12] <_Sime> rgreening: was I right??
[20:12] <Arby> seele, thanks bookmarked for later
[20:12]  * smarter is looking at some monty python videos :)
[20:13] <seele> Arby: i dont know what you mean about enabled, accepting, and shared.  for the user and group policies?
[20:13] <rgreening> I had renamed config.py to app.py forgetting I had a var called app in there already... conflict
[20:13] <Arby> seele hang on I'll do a screen shot
[20:13] <rgreening> so, renaming app var to kapp fixed it and prevent the class with app.py class
[20:13] <rgreening> doh!
[20:13] <rgreening> :)
[20:14]  * rgreening bangs head on the wall for such stupidity
[20:15] <Arby> seele, the old Policies page http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4549/oldpoliciesoj8.jpg
[20:15] <rgreening> ty for looking Riddell, smarter, and _Sime (_Sime your q about the app var triggered me realizing the foo-bar I committed)
[20:16] <_Sime> ok
[20:16] <seele> Arby: are you sure it's not somewhere else in the UI?
[20:17]  * seele remembers a discussion about these options but not why they were moved/removed/changed
[20:17] <Arby> seele, not that I can find
[20:17] <Arby> the remaining pages are http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4549/oldpoliciesoj8.jpg
[20:17] <Arby> and http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4549/oldpoliciesoj8.jpg
[20:18] <Arby> the print test page button also seems to be duplicated. is it supposed to be?
[20:19] <seele> you linked the same two pages ;)
[20:19] <Arby> oops
[20:19] <seele> i think why some (not particularly this specific) functionality was removed was because none of the other configuration UIs we reviewd had the options
[20:19] <seele> aren't most of the policy options high-level administrative options that most people never configure anyway?
[20:20] <Arby> probably
[20:20] <Arby> I haven't actually figured out what they do yet :)
[20:20] <seele> Arby: http://weblog.obso1337.org/2007/kubuntu-printer-configuration-ui/
[20:20] <seele> Arby: in the comments, there might be some corrections to the wireframes
[20:20] <seele> Arby: there might have been some errors that people caught
[20:20] <Arby> ok I'll have a look through it
[20:21] <Arby> seele http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7788/profilesax9.png
[20:22] <Arby> and http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8436/optionsbb0.jpg
[20:23] <Arby> profiles has the duplicated print test page buttonn
[20:23] <rgreening> _Sime: do you have any good reference/example programs I could look at for pyKDE4? Any links? techbase had a couple, but I'm well beyond that scope now. I look through the api docs at kde, but need to see some in action.
[20:24] <Arby> seele, for Default Printing Options what were you intending the Advanced Options button to bring up?
[20:24] <seele> Arby: i think the print text page on the profiles tab is to be able to test individual profiles
[20:24] <seele> Arby: so the button would need to be disabled until a profile is selected
[20:24] <seele> Arby: the print test page on the first tab is to print whatever is configured/default
[20:25] <Arby> seele ok understood
[20:25] <seele> regarding Advanced button.. that's a good question.. i dont remember :)
[20:25] <Arby> seele what about labelling the button 'Test Profile'
[20:25] <Arby> just to make it obviously different
[20:25] <seele> Arby: print should be in there so users know it is going to spit out a page
[20:26] <seele> "Print Profile Test" or "Profile Test Print"
[20:26]  * seele wonders how that will translate, hehe
[20:26] <Arby> Test Print Profile ?
[20:26] <seele> that works too.  people will probably get the gist as long as all three words are there
[20:27] <Arby> excellent
[20:27] <Arby> seele we probably ought to have printer sharing in there somewhere
[20:27] <seele> the advanced button might show the additional end-user print options that you would get.. otherwise i dont remember what that might be
[20:27] <Arby> in which case I'm inclined to just hide it for now until we figure that out
[20:28] <seele> fine by me
[20:28] <seele> is sharing a policy?  or would it have its own tab?
[20:28] <seele> i dont know what types of options there are
[20:29] <Arby> as a minimum I guess it's whether a printer should be shared or not.
[20:29] <Arby> which is one checkbox
[20:29] <seele> would that also have an access list? or is that mostly for large network administrators?
[20:30] <seele> for the most part i think kubuntu is a single user environment
[20:30] <Arby> I think it's more likely to be relevent if it's shared over samba
[20:31] <Arby> for example my partners pc has a printer attached which I'm tempted to share over samba so I can print form down here
[20:31] <seele> would that be controlled in a samba config ui or the printing ui though?
[20:31] <Arby> good question
[20:32] <Arby> probably the former
[20:32] <Arby> which I haven't even thought about building yet
[20:32] <TekkieFreak> What about wi-fi printers?
[20:32] <seele> so a simple [ ] Share printer?
[20:32] <seele> TekkieFreak: i think that works the same way as a networkprinter, no?
[20:32] <Arby> seele, that's what was there before.
[20:33] <Arby> I haven't traced the code to see exactly what it does
[20:33] <TekkieFreak> seele, probably. I'm sure you're right.
[20:33] <Arby> TekkieFreak: we're open to suggestions :)
[20:33] <_Sime> rgreening: what kind of stuff are you looking for? usage of the KDE APIs???
[20:33] <Arby> in fact if you know anything about cups you can help me
[20:34] <TekkieFreak> Arby, heh...:) I'm sure I'll think of some.
[20:34] <Arby> seele, I think we're making progress. I've got plenty there to get on with thanks
[20:34] <TekkieFreak> cups...I've heard of it. :) I'm kinda green.
[20:34] <seele> Arby: great, i can't wait to see it again
[20:34] <TekkieFreak> Oh printing system...hrm.
[20:35] <Arby> the main thing now is I need to get the things on the options and profiles tabs working
[20:35] <Artemis_Fowl> totally irrelevant but I really liked seele's last blog post
[20:35] <Artemis_Fowl> seele: nicely done :)
[20:35] <Arby> but I need someone with knowledge of cups internal api for that
[20:35]  * seele hugs Artemis_Fowl 
[20:35] <Arby> +1
[20:36] <Arby> seele really nicely written with just the right amount of sharp pointy bits :)
[20:36] <TekkieFreak> I used to be a sys-admin back in the day and java2 programming...so as you can see I'm really dating myself.
[20:36] <TekkieFreak> :)
[20:36] <seele> i think i've become quite unpopular on ubuntu planet lately though
[20:36] <seele> oh well, i'm sick of the kde4 haters
[20:36] <Arby> TekkieFreak: it'll come back to you
[20:36] <Arby> seele the moaners are always the loudest
[20:37] <seele> yeah :-/
[20:37] <Arby> the satisfied users are too busy being productive :)
[20:37] <rgreening> _Sime: yeah, or someting that actually builds a app with menus, and how to connect to them and making context menus, etc.
[20:37] <seele> lol
[20:37]  * TekkieFreak crawls into hole for now. :)
[20:37] <Arby> TekkieFreak: we know you're there, you're one of us noe :)
[20:37] <Arby> *now
[20:38] <TekkieFreak> Awww thanks!!!
[20:38] <Arby> now go fix something :)
[20:39] <DaSkreech> Wwhy assume it's a single user environment?
[20:39] <TekkieFreak> Heh, uh well now that I'm running kde3.5 and no clue how to er "upgrade" I'm not sure where to begin.
[20:39] <TekkieFreak> Are you guys writing all this stuff from scratch or are you building on what's already there?
[20:40] <Arby> we don't write all that much, the actual coding is done by the kde project mostly
[20:40] <Arby> but in general people build from what's already there
[20:40] <TekkieFreak> Ah ok, so you just do the GUI stuff?
[20:40] <Arby> the printer config is just one example
[20:41] <Arby> and it's code actually lives in KDEs version control system upstream
[20:41] <TekkieFreak> Ah!!! Ok.
[20:41] <Arby> it just happens that the original version was ported to kde by Riddell
[20:41] <Arby> who is chief kubuntu developer :)
[20:42] <Arby> as a distribution we mainly package up what kde (and others) build
[20:42] <Arby> and try to make all the parts play nice together
[20:42] <TekkieFreak> Oh I see.
[20:42] <Arby> which is harder than it sounds :)
[20:42] <DaSkreech> seele: Which packages damage the system?
[20:43] <TekkieFreak> And I'm sure *THATS* easier said than done.
[20:43] <Arby> quite
[20:43] <TekkieFreak> :)
[20:43] <Arby> we can always use more pairs of hands
[20:43] <TekkieFreak> Well, I'll try to help however I can.
[20:43] <Arby> bug triagers, testers, coders all welcome
[20:44] <Arby> going through the bug lists trying to reproduce them is always useful
[20:44] <DaSkreech> Velkom everyone!
[20:44] <TekkieFreak> Velkommen DaSkreech
[20:44] <DaSkreech> :-)
[20:45] <Arby> TekkieFreak: sound like something you'd like to try.
[20:45] <Arby> TekkieFreak: it's best to pick something that interests you already
[20:45] <TekkieFreak> Arby..sure, I'd love to just get back into doing a bit of coding.
[20:46] <Arby> ok, how are you at C++ or python
[20:46] <TekkieFreak> I've not done much python...but have done some C++ and Java2 as I said.
[20:47] <Arby> well kde is mostly written in C++ so you should be fine
[20:47] <TekkieFreak> Actually, when I left corporate America....we were writing an online stock trading system in Java
[20:47] <Arby> right people we've got a willing C++ coder here
[20:47] <TekkieFreak> Back then we were really cutting edge.
[20:47] <Arby> what have we got that needs patching? :)
[20:48] <TekkieFreak> :)
[20:49] <TekkieFreak> Well is there any way to get kde4 up and running along with my 3.5 and gnome desktops?
[20:49] <Arby> should be yes
[20:49] <Arby> are you still on hardy?
[20:49] <DaSkreech> TekkieFreak: back when there as stock to be traded online :)
[20:49] <TekkieFreak> No, intrepid.
[20:49] <DaSkreech> How do you have KDE 3 ?
[20:49] <TekkieFreak> Indeed, DaSkreech.
[20:49] <Arby> ah, that's a trickier case
[20:50] <Arby> something that's still being worked out
[20:50] <TekkieFreak> Actually, I quite my job and then about 2 months later the whole department got laid off anyway.
[20:50] <TekkieFreak> er quit
[20:50] <TekkieFreak> Why I have the MadScientist kde3
[20:50] <TekkieFreak> I'm also on 64-bit.
[20:51] <Arby> TekkieFreak: in that case one of the best things you can do is help madscientist
[20:51] <Arby> we're trying to come up with a way for his packages and ours to co-exist
[20:51] <TekkieFreak> I'm more than willing to help him too.
[20:51] <Arby> he's agreed to work with us
[20:51] <Arby> and has a stack of packaging and rebuilding to do for that to happen
[20:51] <TekkieFreak> Yep, I've been reading the forums
[20:52] <Arby> it might be a good plan to get in touch then and offer your services :)
[20:52] <Arby> I'm sure he'd appreciate it
[20:52] <TekkieFreak> Offer my services eh? :)
[20:52] <Arby> stick around here and we'll help if we can
[20:53] <TekkieFreak> sounds good.
[20:53] <Arby> I think the plan was to try and put his packages in a ppa with a -kde3 suffix
[20:53] <Arby> like we did for -kde4 in hardy
[20:54] <TekkieFreak> That sounds like a great idea.
[20:54] <Arby> if that gets done then we stand a chance of being able to offer people a reasonable upgrade path to jaunty
[20:54] <Arby> which will require extensive testing
[20:55] <TekkieFreak> Ok.
[20:55] <Arby> at the moment upgrades have no chance so it needs to be resolved somehow
[20:55] <Arby> but it's being worked on
[20:56] <Arby> getting in touch with madscientist would be the best plan
[20:56] <Arby> find out what he needs help with
[20:56] <Arby> ok the bot just had a fit :)
[20:57] <TekkieFreak> I see that.
[20:57] <ScottK> Bot needs updating anyway
[20:57] <DaSkreech> What?
[20:58] <TekkieFreak> Now if we could get 64-bit boxee.
[21:16] <seele> DaSkreech: there was a third party vendor who was packaging 3.5.10 for intrepid who overrode the kde4 packages with a higher epoch number
[21:16] <TekkieFreak> So is there somewhere to just download the kde4 pacakges...like if you wanted to install without doing the repository thing?
[21:17] <TekkieFreak> Yeah clearly he shouldn't have done it *that* way.
[21:18] <DaSkreech> seele: Oh dear
[21:18] <DaSkreech> Which one was that?
[21:22] <TekkieFreak> There's got to be an easy way to get them to co-exist.
[21:22]  * TekkieFreak sings the jeapordy music.
[21:23] <Arby> seele, just been reading the comments on you're blog post about printer config
[21:24] <DaSkreech> Oooh comments
[21:24] <Arby> you said that the administrator was not the target user for this interface
[21:24] <Arby> is that still true
[21:24] <Arby> ?
[21:24] <seele> Arby: if it is going to stick in kubuntu yes, if it goes upstream, then it will probably need the additional functionality
[21:25] <Arby> in that case it probably needs the extra functions
[21:25] <Arby> it's currently living in kdeadmin
[21:25] <Arby> ok that answers what I needed to know
[21:26] <TekkieFreak> Okie...so does anyone have and ideas on how to back-out of madscientists "upgrades"?
[21:27] <Arby> I suspect there's no easy way
[21:27] <Arby> it would probably need an apt-get remove for every package
[21:27] <TekkieFreak> So the "easy" way would be somethings like re-installing?
[21:27] <Arby> he did talk about providing a script for it
[21:27] <Arby> that would be one option
[21:29] <TekkieFreak> But if gnome and kde can co-exist then there's no reason that kde3/kde4 shouldn't be able to...or am I wrong?
[21:30] <ScottK> TekkieFreak: They can.  We did that for Hardy.
[21:30] <fehrp> as in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/knetworkmanager/+bug/278386 I got exactly that problem and I just downloaded the kubuntu iso from kubuntu.org which is open to the public and NOT called UNstable or anything...
[21:31] <TekkieFreak> ScottK....oh ok....great.
[21:31] <ScottK> TekkieFreak: You shouldn't have to reinstall the entire system.  Just uninstall kubuntu-desktop and then sudo apt-get autoremove.  Then you should be able to sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop.
[21:31] <TekkieFreak> So all we need to do is set up the same kind of situation for intrepid.
[21:31] <fehrp> I mean, I am used to the fact, that things work, after an update don't work, after a next update even other parts don't work...etc. no matter if so called stable or unstable branch. but the network manager, guys, this is such a core feature and it worked in 0.6 flawlessly, now you use 0.7 in kde 4.1 and all hell broke loose
[21:32] <ScottK> TekkieFreak: It was a huge amount of work to do it for Hardy.  We didn't have the resources to do it for Intrepid.
[21:33] <ScottK> fehrp: Works fine for me.  It works for a lot of people, but not some so don't over generalize.
[21:33] <ScottK> fehrp: Truth is we needed 0.7 to meet the Intrepid design goal of 3G support.
[21:33] <fehrp> ScottK: that is already a good thing that I did not know!
[21:33] <ScottK> So it's not like we had a choice.
[21:34] <glade88> I still have my "Applications" area blank :/
[21:34] <ScottK> fehrp: Also there are some kernel driver issues that are problematic.
[21:34] <fehrp> ScottK: okay, it seems anyway that madwifi driver is not included
[21:34] <fehrp> and i need that for wpa_supplicant to work anyway
[21:34] <ScottK> That was a kernel team decision.  I don't know the details.
[21:34] <ScottK> Gotta run.
[21:35] <TekkieFreak> thanks Scott.
[21:35] <fehrp> ScottK why is there no madwifi driver included?
[21:36] <fehrp> when I get the network up without the network manager, I can at least say, it's a knetwork problem
[21:36] <fehrp> when -> if
[21:38] <TekkieFreak> I can't get knetworkmanager to work on my Dell either.
[21:38] <TekkieFreak> Okie...well I gotta run too.
[21:38] <TekkieFreak> See you guys later.
[21:38] <fehrp> cu
[21:39] <fehrp> ah, found sth: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/810 under Atheros
[21:40] <fehrp> ath5k is a substitute for madwifi?
[21:40] <DaSkreech> otherway around
[21:40] <fehrp> ah okay
[21:42] <fehrp> but madwifi is not included either
[21:58] <Arby> seele: do you think printer sharing, Enable/Disable, Accepting Jobs could be considered 'Advanced Settings'
[21:59] <Arby> I'm thinking of adding a new tab because there just isn't enough space
[21:59] <Arby> those functions could be useful from a sysadmin perspective.
[22:49] <bukharin> hello
[22:49] <bukharin> someone in #kubuntu sent me here...
[22:50] <bukharin> because i wanted to know what happende with kdebase-kio-plugins in intrepid...
[22:50] <bukharin> any info on why is it not available?
[22:50] <ScottK-laptop> Without looking I'm almost sure it hasn't been ported to KDE4 and needs kdebase from KDE3 to work and we don't have that.
[22:50]  * ScottK-laptop needs to run off.
[22:51] <bukharin> :(
[22:51] <bukharin> well, the problem is that packages are asking for it
[22:52] <bukharin> specifically, knights (the chess game) depends on it, but it appears as available for intrepid
[22:52] <DaSkreech> You mean Unavailable "_"
[22:56] <Riddell> hmm, that should be removed then
[22:58] <DaSkreech> or see if that can be dropped to suggests ?
[22:58] <Riddell> aye
[23:05] <Lex79> Hi...I would to upgrade yakuake from 2.9.3 to 2.9.4
[23:05] <Lex79> Can I put in revu? or LP?
[23:08] <JontheEchidna> Lex79: I assume this is for Jaunty?
[23:09] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: yes for Jaunty
[23:09] <JontheEchidna> File a bug requesting a version upgrade for yakuake, then paste the dsc, orig.tar.gz and diff.gz to that bug
[23:09] <Lex79> in Jaunty there is 2.9.3 version
[23:10] <Lex79> ok thanks JontheEchidna
[23:10] <JontheEchidna> then ping an MOTU
[23:10] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: you? :)
[23:10]  * JontheEchidna isn't an motu yet
[23:12] <Lex79> is inconceivable :)
[23:53] <Hobbsee> seele: hear hear!