[12:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[12:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:00] <davidm> StevenK, persia ogra lool you all about?
[12:00] <Hobbsee> they all snuck off to the pub, apparently.
[12:00]  * ogra looks up half ducked behind a chair ... 
[12:01]  * StevenK waves
[12:01] <davidm> ian_brasil are you here?
[12:01]  * ogra feels bad about being such a slacker with the reports 
[12:01] <ogra> sorry to all ...
[12:01] <persia> \o
[12:02] <davidm> OK, I don't really expect lool this morning as he is traveling and in a tough location to join in today
[12:04]  * persia digs about for the agenda
[12:04] <davidm> OK on the agenda for today we have : davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
[12:05] <persia> Oops.  Sorry for stealing that one.
[12:05] <davidm>  which is complete, I did it and persia did it. ;-)
[12:05] <Hobbsee> \o/
[12:05] <davidm> well it's very well done.
[12:05]  * persia still needs to upload the "Complete Specification"
[12:05] <davidm> the second item is also done: persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID
[12:06] <davidm> persia, I added that to the schedule for UDS
[12:06] <davidm> that was all the prior actions
[12:06] <davidm> for new business:
[12:07] <davidm> [topic] new business
[12:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  new business
[12:07] <davidm> [topic] Spec Review: anyone have any specs they want for Jaunty that aren't on the jaunty schedule?
[12:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Review: anyone have any specs they want for Jaunty that aren't on the jaunty schedule?
[12:07] <davidm> brought to us by persia :-)
[12:07] <persia> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs is the current list.  Check and make sure.
[12:08] <persia> There's a bunch of recommendations on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions that I didn't see there.
[12:09] <persia> missing ones seem mostly to be lool and ian_brasil, but neither seems to be here today.
[12:09] <ogra> isnt mid-screen-rotation rather about general bugfixing ?
[12:10] <ogra> the gnome resolution dialog already has the UI bits for that
[12:10] <persia> Not intended that way (although I also have to upload more description).  It's because there doesn't seem to be a good app for that, and screen rotation is something I expect to just work on a MID.
[12:11] <persia> Maybe we just need to include that in MID: that's the point of the session.
[12:11] <ogra> so you want a non gnome specific app ?
[12:11] <ogra> ah
[12:11] <ogra> k
[12:11] <davidm> please target blueprints to ubuntu-mobile if they are for the mobile track
[12:12] <persia> davidm, As a project?
[12:12] <davidm> [link] https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs
[12:12] <persia> davidm, Why that, rather than "ubuntu"?
[12:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs
[12:12] <davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions
[12:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions
[12:12] <davidm> persia,  makes it quite easy to see what they are for?
[12:13] <ogra> well, that has to hapen at registration afaik
[12:13]  * persia wishes harder for a general cleanup of the blueprints interface
[12:13] <ogra> yeah
[12:13] <ogra> i dont think you can change it post registration
[12:13] <ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images would be one
[12:14] <davidm> Ah, well new ones then and I'll retarget the old ones
[12:14] <persia> No.  That part of LP has aged for a bit.
[12:14] <persia> davidm, Not sure if you can, but good luck.
[12:14] <davidm> I can, just did for one
[12:15] <davidm> Yep works for me :-)
[12:15] <davidm> just changed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images to ubuntu-mobile
[12:16] <StevenK> Ah, that reminds me.
[12:16] <davidm> but new ones would be nicer that way, much harder to miss
[12:16] <ogra> yeah
[12:16] <ogra> priority for that one is unset now btw
[12:16] <StevenK> davidm: gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images and mid-jaunty-boot-menu is the same. Set mid-jaunty-boot-menu to Obselete or something similar
[12:17] <ogra> (was "high"
[12:17] <ogra> )
[12:17] <persia> It was Obsolete last I saw, although it ought get rejected from the sprint schedule.
[12:18]  * davidm grunps but fixed  gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images
[12:18] <persia> Huh?  It swiched back?
[12:18]  * davidm will make  mid-jaunty-boot-menu obsolete 
[12:18] <ogra> looks fine to me now
[12:20] <davidm> OK done
[12:20] <davidm> anyway do we have anymore business on the topic?
[12:21] <ogra> we should also make sure we subscribe to the ones we want to go to btw
[12:21] <ogra> its important for the scheduler
[12:21] <ogra> (at least it was in the past, it tries to resolve conflicts if possible)
[12:21] <persia> More than anything, I just wanted to highlight things.  The people who I wanted to highlight them to are not present, so we can move on.
[12:21] <davidm> it is, very important so please subscribe this week
[12:22] <ogra> i.e. i want to be in all the bootspeed ones ...
[12:22] <ogra> so i subbed to them
[12:22] <davidm> [topic] Alpha 1 images: Do we need to do anything for Alpha 1 testing, or shall we defer image testing until Alpha 2?
[12:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 images: Do we need to do anything for Alpha 1 testing, or shall we defer image testing until Alpha 2?
[12:22] <davidm> StevenK, do we have Alpha 1 images or is Image creation broken right now?
[12:23] <persia> So, last I heard, our images didn't quite work, and the installer wasn't quite ready.
[12:23]  * ogra votes for the latter
[12:23] <persia> In the Foundations meeting, there was talk about making Alpha 1 d-i only (alternate CDs), but I don't remember the conclusion.  If this happens, we're straight out.
[12:24] <davidm> Seem to have lost StevenK
[12:25] <StevenK> I'm here
[12:25] <StevenK> Right, image creation needs a little more work
[12:25] <StevenK> So, defer
[12:26] <davidm> deferred
[12:26] <persia> OK.  That's the end of my items then :)
[12:27] <davidm> yep, on to general status from each of us
[12:27] <davidm> [Status] StevenK
[12:27] <davidm> [topic] Status StevenK
[12:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status StevenK
[12:28]  * davidm can barely type this morning
[12:28] <davidm> StevenK, any news?
[12:29] <StevenK> I have been working on image creation, and am nearly completed
[12:30] <davidm> StevenK, Do you have any merges?
[12:30] <StevenK> Yes. I need to keep looking at them.
[12:31] <davidm> StevenK, anything else?
[12:31]  * davidm thinks the string to OZ must be wet.
[12:32] <StevenK> Sorry, it's been a long day and I'm extremly tired
[12:32] <StevenK> Not that I can think of
[12:33] <davidm> OK
[12:33] <davidm> [topic] status ogra?
[12:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  status ogra?
[12:33] <ogra> * spec regitration
[12:33] <ogra> * ending merges: moodle
[12:33] <ogra> *pending even
[12:34] <ogra> apart from that i'm doing ARM 12-14h/day since monday
[12:34] <ogra> nothing else mobile related
[12:34] <davidm> thanks ogra :-)
[12:34] <davidm> [topic] status persia?
[12:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  status persia?
[12:35] <persia> Still need to merge matchbox-keyboard, and complete/upload spec descriptions for the raft of registered specs.
[12:35] <ogra> wikipages with SpecTemplate are enough
[12:35] <ogra> you can flesh it out later
[12:36] <persia> It may come to that, but I hope to have a bit more.
[12:36] <ogra> well, copy paste the description :)
[12:36] <ogra> you will write them only after UDS anyway
[12:37] <ogra> but having the wikipage for the gobby notes helps durign discussion
[12:37] <davidm> persia, anything else?
[12:37] <persia> Well, the goal is to have a couple use cases, etc. documented in the next couple days.
[12:37] <persia> No, that's it for me.
[12:37] <davidm> OK thanks
[12:37] <davidm> [topic] status davidm
[12:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  status davidm
[12:38] <davidm> I've been working on UDS, getting blueprints set and working the schedule.  Also working on recruiting as we have 5 open positions currently.
[12:39] <Hobbsee> wow!
[12:39] <davidm> Also have been working on things related to ARM with the rest of my time
[12:40] <davidm> And meetings continue to eat my time ;-/
[12:40] <davidm> Anyway that is the long and short of it.
[12:41] <davidm> [topic] new business - opens
[12:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  new business - opens
[12:41] <davidm> I don't see anything else on the agenda
[12:41] <davidm> does anyone have anything?
[12:41] <davidm> or I'm happy to close the meeting early
[12:41]  * lool reads backlog and waves
[12:42] <davidm> hi lool
[12:42] <ogra> hey lool
[12:42]  * persia wants to subscribe to lool's specs
[12:42] <Hobbsee> davidm: seeing as you appear to be short on people at the moment, what do you most need done?
[12:42] <lool> I wanted to tell you folks that I wanted to register my specs yesterday evening, but crashed to bed and will to do during the day today
[12:42] <davidm> lool, thanks
[12:43] <ogra> Hobbsee, he needs someone to go to all the meetings for him :P
[12:43] <lool> Hobbsee: You mean on any topic?  There's so much to be done
[12:43] <davidm> Hobbsee, we are shorthanded for folks with ARM skills and folks that know how to write commercial style test plans and automate QA testing
[12:43] <Hobbsee> lool: I had no specific topic in mind
[12:44] <davidm> there is a lot to be done
[12:44] <lool> Hobbsee: One thing which is hard to do and requires help from everybody is to save boot time
[12:44] <lool> Another similar cross-package effort is the boot beautification
[12:44] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[12:44]  * persia would most like to see the test cases for MID and UMPC cleaned up
[12:44] <lool> Basically, we want systems to boot very fast and nicely
[12:44] <lool> And we're far from that
[12:44] <lool> One way could be upstart, there are some other ways
[12:45] <StevenK> Sure, but we should discuss that at UDS first
[12:45] <lool> I think we could slim down mobile boots futher
[12:45] <ogra> drop initramfs :)
[12:45] <lool> Yeah, this is all UDS stuff
[12:45] <Hobbsee> right
[12:45] <persia> Well, except the test cases.  Just something based on intrepid would be a *great* start.
[12:45] <lool> I wanted to hint at these two topics because I know Hobbsee wont show up next week with "What's next?"" ;)
[12:45] <lool> It's probably a two cycles effort to see some large improvement in these areas
[12:46] <Hobbsee> lool: well, i won't show up to your meeting at all next week, as i'll have an exam the morning after, iirc ;)
[12:46] <lool> Hobbsee: Good excuse
[12:46] <lool> Hobbsee: We'll hunt you down
[12:46] <Hobbsee> oh dear.
[12:46] <lool> down to the exam room
[12:46] <ogra> hehe
[12:46] <lool> "What about my boot time"
[12:46] <Hobbsee> it would be much easier if you just waited till UDS...
[12:46] <StevenK> Then she'll ask us to help with the paper
[12:46] <lool> Hobbsee: You're coming to UDS I guess, we should discuss this over there
[12:46] <Hobbsee> StevenK: excellent idea!
[12:47] <Hobbsee> lool: true
[12:47] <Hobbsee> davidm: quick!  This is your chance to end the meeting! ;)
[12:47]  * persia likes short meetings
[12:47] <davidm> ian_brasil,  ian_brasil_ do you have any specs you are planning to register for this jaunty?
[12:47] <ogra> he has one proposal on the wikipage ...
[12:48] <davidm> Hobbsee, I'm trying ;-)
[12:48] <persia> He also pointed at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UMEGuide/ApplicationDevelopment/GPSEnabledWebApplication
[12:48] <davidm> I heard a rumor he had some more he was interested in
[12:49] <persia> (which probably belongs on wiki.ubuntu.com rather than help.ubuntu.com, but that's a side issue)
[12:49] <ogra> persia, i'd like to package maemo mapper
[12:49] <davidm> but since there is no comments I'll say:
[12:49] <persia> ogra, Please do.
[12:49] <davidm> closing meeting going once...........................................................
[12:49] <ogra> yeah, need to find a clean upstream :)
[12:50] <davidm> endmeeting going twice...................
[12:50] <Hobbsee> and gone!
[12:51] <davidm> [endmeeting]
[12:51] <persia> #
[12:51] <lool> #endmeeting
[12:51] <davidm> #endmeeting
[12:51] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:51.
[12:51] <davidm> I always get that wrong
[12:51] <davidm> Thanks everyone
[14:00] <persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
[14:00] <Koon> o/
[14:01] <slytherin> me
[14:02] <persia> #startmeeting
[14:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is persia.
[14:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:02] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[14:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[14:02] <persia> Just as a reminder, adding specific items to the meeting agenda might interest others, for wider discussion.
[14:02] <persia> Anyway.
[14:03] <persia> [TOPIC] RoadMap
[14:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  RoadMap
[14:03] <persia> robilad is missing, so we'll skip that.
[14:03] <persia> slytherin, MoveToUniverse
[14:04] <slytherin> going on fine. These days Debian is in freeze, so not many packages are moving to universe.
[14:04] <persia> Are we caught up with Debian now?
[14:04] <slytherin> I am working on some merges/syncs and will propose move to universe where appropriate
[14:04] <slytherin> we are not yet cause up completely.
[14:04] <persia> OK.  Anything else on this?
[14:05] <slytherin> nope.
[14:05] <persia> Koon, Maven
[14:05] <Koon> someone (Ludovic Claude) started up an implementation
[14:05] <Koon> https://code.launchpad.net/~ludovicc/+junk/maven-packaging-support
[14:05] <persia> Cool!
[14:05] <Koon> He is a Java guy, so I'll be helping him with debian packaging
[14:06] <persia> Is he on IRC?  Maybe he'd like to join the meetings?
[14:06] <Koon> He should "fix" the spec as soon as he has the tools running
[14:06] <Koon> I proposed him to come, but I suspect it's occuring at work hours for him
[14:06] <Koon> given the time his email are sent :)
[14:06] <slytherin> Koon: how hard do you think it will be for him to put packages in java team ppa?
[14:07] <persia> Using the PPA like that might be a handy way to stage stuff.
[14:07] <Koon> slytherin: I'll be pushing him to do that... will be easier for me to fix the debian part
[14:07] <slytherin> Koon: I am interested to help as well.
[14:08] <Koon> in parallel, I intend to start the basic packaging effort described in the spe
[14:08] <Koon> spec, even
[14:08] <Koon> so as to have a few model packages that we can replicate to novice packagers
[14:09] <Koon> so all in all it's in good shape, and I'm happy to have some Java guy fixing the tools spec
[14:09] <persia> Excellent news.  Jaunty is a reasonable target for this?
[14:10] <Koon> persia: yes, that's the goal.
[14:10] <persia> Anything else on Maven?
[14:10] <Koon> no
[14:11] <persia> OK.  Next, slytherin added "Kill Sun Java 5 in Jaunty" to the Roadmap.  That raises two questions.
[14:11] <persia> First how do we want to add new items to the roadmap.  Is this the right procedure, or should we raise them in a meeting first?
[14:12] <Koon> I'd say we should present the ideas as a meeting item first.
[14:12] <persia> slytherin, What's your opinion about that?
[14:12] <Koon> and roadmap should consist of discussed/somewhat-approved items
[14:13] <slytherin> persia: I am fine with either way.
[14:13]  * Koon updates the status of Maven on the roadmap
[14:13] <slytherin> I just had this on my mind for some time so I added it before I would forget.
[14:14] <persia> I'm also fine with either way, so since there's only one of us who has a preference, let's go with putting things on the agenda first, and the Roadmap afterwards.  I'll just pretend that this is an agenda item for today to save hassle.
[14:14] <persia> So, Roadmap complete.
[14:14] <persia> [TOPIC] Kill Sun Java 5 in jaunty
[14:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kill Sun Java 5 in jaunty
[14:14] <persia> slytherin, Go
[14:15] <slytherin> As of now, I have found only few packages with hard reverse-build-depends on sun-java5-jdk. So it is easy to kill that package.
[14:15] <persia> I like the idea.
[14:15] <persia> Any volunteers to coordinate it?
[14:15] <slytherin> sun-java5-jre is a bit tricky, as I couldn't find an easy way to find all the hard rdepends on it.
[14:16] <persia> apt-cache rdepends on available architectures isn't sufficient?
[14:16] <slytherin> persia: I am ready to co-ordinate it. Since I am keeping an eye on Debian packages moving to openjdk, it will be easy for me.
[14:16] <Koon> slytherin: by "killing it" you mean removing it ? Or just ensuring nothing hard-depends on it ?
[14:16] <slytherin> Koon: in the end, removing it.
[14:16]  * persia would prefer removal, if possible.
[14:17] <slytherin> persia: I will have to look for rdepends in a jaunty chroot. Anyway, I will find some time to list all such packages over weekend.
[14:17] <Koon> I think there may still be users running custom software that require a Sun 5 JVM...
[14:18] <slytherin> Koon: And why do you think Sun 6 JVM will not help them?
[14:18] <persia> Koon, Stff that wouldn't work with Sun 6, and users that can't use Hardy or Intrepid for a while more?
[14:19] <Koon> there are some proprietary/closed solutions that just don't let you choose (or are not certified with) JVMs
[14:19] <Koon> that means those users will also have to install JVM by hand
[14:19] <slytherin> Koon: in that case user is still free to download 5 from SUn's website.
[14:20] <Koon> slytherin: ok, just wanted to make sure that we were aware of this side-effect
[14:20] <persia> Koon, The question is really how to serve the users best.  There's a lot of known bugs in Java 5 that will never be fixed.
[14:21] <slytherin> +1
[14:21] <persia> Given that Hardy is LTS, do you think there's a high chance that such users won't be able to migrate to 6 by the next LTS?
[14:21] <handschuh> thats true for sun java 6, too
[14:21] <Koon> persia: I can see clearly the advantages of removing it :)
[14:23] <persia> Koon, You've also clearly stated the advantages of keeping it.  Personally, I'd rather remove it sooner than later in a non-LTS, so in LTS+1 or LTS+2.  Removing it suddenly for LTS+3 or an LTS doesn't give users warning to migrate.
[14:23] <persia> So if we don't do it now, I think April 2011 is our next window of opportunity.
[14:25] <Koon> persia: I'd say that should be spec-ed to make sure it gets the proper visibility and approvals
[14:25] <persia> I'd agree with that.
[14:26] <Koon> I don't really mind either way -- it's just that there might be others with... partner interests that would.
[14:26] <persia> slytherin, Would you mind creating a spec for that?  The migration is one thing, but the removal probably needs release notes and stuff.
[14:30] <persia> slytherin, ?
[14:30] <Koon> in all cases we should fix the hard depends for the packages in the repository
[14:30] <persia> Koon, With that, I'll say it belongs on the Roadmap, for the work to be done (as we're in consensus on that part).
[14:31] <Koon> oh yes
[14:31] <slytherin> persia: sorry, I was discussing something with a team mate.
[14:32] <slytherin> persia: Is a spec required? or a page like MoveToUniverse is sufficient?
[14:32] <persia> slytherin, For the migration, I think the wiki is fine.  For the removal, I'm inclined to agree with Koon that it's worth having a spec, and filing a release note.
[14:33] <slytherin> persia: ok, I will do that.
[14:34] <persia> slytherin, And put your name as the coordinator on the RoadMap.  As always, doesn't mean you need to do it, just that you need to make sure it gets done (which might mean doing it if you can't excite others).
[14:35] <persia> OK.  That decided, let's move on.
[14:36] <persia> [TOPIC] Other business
[14:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
[14:36] <persia> I'll be unable to attend the next two meetings.  Would someone else be willing to volunteer to chair?
[14:37]  * Koon checks his agenda
[14:37] <slytherin> I will have been unable to attend meetings lately. So I would not volunteer for this.
[14:37] <persia> The open slots are 27th November and 4th December
[14:38] <Koon> persia: I can do it, if slytherin is not 100% sure to be able to join
[14:38] <slytherin> Koon: great
[14:38] <persia> Koon, OK.  Although without slytherin or I, might be quick meetings :)
[14:38] <persia> Anyone else have other business?
[14:39] <slytherin> nope
[14:39] <Koon> .
[14:40] <persia> OK.  Anything else to #ubuntu-java then.
[14:40] <persia> #endmeeting
[14:40] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:40.