/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/11/21/#ubuntu-server.txt

wo0fhow can i get my server to host remote desktop sessions?00:14
wo0flike a windows remote desktop-terminal server does00:15
liberviscoHi, there seems to be an "admin" group on ubuntu-server which is preventing me from creating an "admin" user that I need for my admin@mydomain email address00:41
liberviscoWould it be safe to remove that group or is there some way around it?00:41
wo0fyou could just call the initial user admin?00:47
liberviscowo0f, oh.. what do you mean by initial user?01:02
gh0stim getting errors like this: http://pastebin.com/m19871e7a.... whats wrong?05:13
uvirtbotNew bug: #300151 in openssh "ssh slow during logon, when ENTERING INTERACTIVE SESSION" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30015105:18
uvirtbotNew bug: #300615 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 (main) "package mysql-server-5.0 None [modified: /var/lib/dpkg/info/mysql-server-5.0.list] failed to install/upgrade: subprocess pre-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30061508:02
nme_https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/serverguide/C/samba-ldap.html - not a draft anymore?08:15
nme_it still does contain mistakes08:15
nme_as an example: ldapadd -x -D cn=admin,cn=config -f /tmp/ldif_output/cn\=config/cn\=schema/cn\=\{12\}misc.ldif08:15
nme_missing -W and misc should be replaced with samba08:16
nme_btw kerberos configuration is a bit messy too08:16
=== ssd7 is now known as Guest93322
sorennme_: COuld you file a bug about it here: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+filebug ?08:22
sorenThanks!08:22
krautmoin08:23
nme_soren: i will in the spare time, right now im trying to get things work ;) btw. it would be much simpler to allow people to comment entries on docs page - Like it is possible at django online book - take a look at http://www.djangobook.com/en/1.0/chapter06/08:26
sorennme_: I've never really liked that sort of thing.08:27
nme_so maybe you will consider hiring at RedHat? ;)08:28
sorennme_: It makes sense on articles that are expected to be immutable, but for documentation that's expected to be refined all the time, it's just confusing.08:28
sorennme_: Eh?08:28
nme_as Ubuntu says its is soo comunity oriented distribution - this way of extending documentation would be very natural08:28
sorenOh, we're happy to accept comments.08:29
sorenI just don't think that's the right way to do it.08:29
nme_take a look at php docs page - comment resources are great08:29
sorenSee, the problem is this.08:29
soren:08:29
sorenIf there's a section that has problems, someone makes a comment to that effect...08:29
soren...then someone makes an attempt to fix it...08:29
sorenWhat to do with the comment?08:29
sorenRemove it?08:29
sorenBut what if the commenter doesn't find his complaints were properly addressed?08:29
sorenLeave them?08:30
sorenWell, that's just confusing to anyone who reads them later.08:30
nme_give me a sec (im at work, phone..)08:30
sorenSure, take your time.08:30
sorenI'm here all day :)08:30
sorennme_: Dear, oh dear, no. The PHP pages are even worse.08:30
sorenIn fact, for the php ones, I think they make the docs worse.08:31
soren..because there's apparantly not enough incentive to fix the docs, because "hey, comment number 97 explains how to do it properly".08:31
sorenIn the case of php, for instance, you can download the docs in various formats, but they don't (and shouldn't) contain the comments...08:32
soren...but without the comments, the docs suck.08:32
sorenThe only right way to go is to fix the docs themselves.08:33
nme_there are two options - one guys writes docs - ten testers "do" actual tests... he corrects things... and so 11 guys get paid... on the other side - one guy writes docs - community points mistakes - the other guy interactive'ly administers web page comments - merging them to docs, updating docs, filtering some content... so 2 guys get paid more... not 11.08:33
soren...and comments on page like that makes for a lousy bugtracker.08:33
sorenAnyone is free to join the documentation team.08:34
soren(noone on the documentation team gets paid, by the way, as far as I know)08:34
sorenOk, a random example from the django page...08:34
sorenSomeone filed this comment: "I don't understand this section at all. I thought the previous section already was customizing the look and feel of the Django admin index page. Also, I don't see the available applications listed anywhere on the page. What is the URL that you're referring to? "08:34
sorenhow to handle that? It's not like he's proposing an alternate wording.08:35
sorenHe's just dissatisfied with the current content.08:35
sorenWhen is it ok to remove such a comment?08:35
sorenThe answeR:08:35
sorenWhen the commenter feels his complaints have been addressed. Not sooner nor later.08:35
soren...but how to tell?08:36
sorenThat's why this stuff belongs in a bugtracker.08:36
sorenAny set of docs that only feels complete with the comments attached to it is broken, IMO.08:36
sorenThe alternative is to leave the comments there indefinitely.08:37
sorenThat's troublesome in two ways:08:37
sorenIf it's attached to a specific paragraph as in the django case, what happens if that paragraph ceases to exist, because the docs are refactored somehow?08:38
nme_in such situation when comment does not suggest any changes and only shows dissatisfaction about some paragraph - we still got options - one is to (allowing only registered users to comment) drop his comment sending it back to his mail with an answer, another is to hide this paragraph and open new one with better content08:39
sorenIf the comment has been adressed, but it's still there it's either just noise (since it doesn't add anything that's not currently in the docs) or plain confusing because it makes a fuss about something that's been reworded.08:39
sorenI don't see a problem with integrating the server guide with the bug tracker. Such as putting links here and there that automatically fill in parts of the bug report and makes that part easier...08:40
nme_but the ubuntu's bugtracker is a bit dead...08:40
soren...but using a comment system in place of a bugtracker? I'm sorry, but I think that's a horrible idea.08:40
sorennme_: Dead? How so?08:40
nme_as I reported 2 weeks ago a problem which concerns casper and kvm, still noone looked at it08:41
sorenThat's a manpower problem.08:41
sorenIt only makes things worse to add *another* system for tracking bugs.08:41
nme_after some time I've just placed my suggestion how to solve it, where the problem lies... and it is still, opened...08:42
sorennme_: What's the bug number of the casper+kvm thing, by the way?08:42
sorennme_: Please appreciate that we have tons and tons of stuff to do.08:43
sorennme_: Like, say, answering stuff on IRC.08:43
nme_[Bug 296089] [NEW] casper boot=nfs ipconfig: eth0: SIOCGIFINDEX: No such device08:44
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 296089 in casper "casper boot=nfs ipconfig: eth0: SIOCGIFINDEX: No such device" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29608908:44
nme_thats why I'm trying to help :)08:44
nme_You see - I've already suggested how to change 11 people working on a issue to 2 people...08:45
Deepsfoolano: ono any better than timofonica where you are?08:45
sorenAnd I've tried to explain why you're wrong.08:46
sorenThe docs aren't written in the way you clearly think they are.08:46
nme_and how about maintaining debian packages?08:46
sorenHow about that?08:46
sorenI don't understand the question?08:47
nme_that where the problem of launchpad is08:47
nme_some guys are developing a code...08:47
sorenThe problem of launchpad is maintaining debian pakcages?08:47
nme_they know whats the best as a default setup...08:47
nme_then comes a Debian maintainer and he says "no, in my opinion it will be like this..."08:48
nme_and he prepares the package08:48
nme_like for instance infamous openssl maintaniner did ;)08:48
nme_but then08:48
nme_this package is repackaged and called ubuntu one08:49
nme_when some guys have a problem he reports it where? at ubuntu launchpad.08:49
sorenDo you understand what "repackaged" means?08:49
nme_where nobody knows anything about it, because given package was prepared by a Debian maintaniner08:49
sorenLook, this discussion is pointless. It's very obvious that you're not familiar with your development model, and you're making lots of assumptions that are just plain wrong.08:50
nme_im not sure - something like sed -i s/Debian/Ubuntu/gc ...08:50
soren*sigh*08:51
sorenWhy would we do that?08:51
sorenThe only right thing to do is to report it to the distribution where you got it.08:51
sorenin fact, if you went on to report a bug in Debian's BTS about a package you got from Ubuntu, you'd better be prepared to handle the consequences. Lots of Debian developers get *very* annoyed by that.08:52
nme_I did not want to argue, just wanted to point a few things08:52
sorenWell, if you just want to say things and not hear the response, I don't see the point.08:52
nme_I read Your answers08:53
sorenLook, if you get a package from Ubuntu and something fails, you should either report it to Ubuntu or be familiar enough with the package itself, its dependencies and all the other relationships it has with other packages, before you just go ahead and assume that it's a problem in the Debian package as well.08:53
sorenMost users aren't.08:53
sorenHeck, some developers aren't.08:53
soren...so treating it as an Ubuntu bug first is the right thing to do.08:53
nme_ok then08:54
nme_so08:54
soren...if we look at it, and can see that it must be a bug in Debian, we forward it to them.08:54
nme_when there is a Debian package in Ubuntu distribution08:54
sorenOften with a fix.08:54
nme_and You get a problem08:54
nme_and you report it to ubuntu launchpad08:54
nme_and You will not get the answer08:54
sorenUbuntu is a community effort.08:55
nme_(which is probably)08:55
sorenSo is Debian.08:55
sorenWhy is it that you think that failure to keep up with the bug volume is a problem that's unique to Ubuntu?08:56
nme_no08:56
nme_all I want to tell is that lets say 50% of packages are unmaintained by anyone at Ubuntu side, there are just taken from Debian giving community no possible way to get any support for them08:57
Koonhuh.08:58
Koonnme_: the fact that the packages are in sync with Debian doesn't mean they are unmaintained.08:58
nme_nor developers nor maintainers are seers... Ubuntu is growing extremally strong currently... There are a LOT of people... Most of Linux desktops are Ubuntu...08:59
Deepsmost ubuntu installs are desktops as well08:59
nme_as my part job is to administer a student campus network of over 1200 hosts... and if anyone asks about Linux I say Ubuntu.08:59
nme_but there are dark sides I already see...08:59
Deepsrecommend os x, they'll appreciate it ;)08:59
nme_os x is illegal at every hardware which is not apple originated.09:00
Deepsdark sides09:00
nme_I'll explain it in a minute (phone)09:00
Koonif by "dark sides" you mean "i submit a bug and noone seems to be looking at it" I'm just not sure you wouldn't find those dark sides anywhere09:02
sorennme_: if you have suggestions on how ~100 people (only half of which work full time on Ubuntu) can better keep up with 10000 new bugs reported each month, we'd be happy to hear it.09:02
sorenTrust me, though: Adding alternate means for "tracking" bugs is not the right approach.09:02
Koonsoren: maybe his point is that choosing a distro with a higher developer/user ratio might help in getting timely response09:03
Koonit doesn't help in getting better packages in general though :)09:03
nme_im back. are you familiar with avahi ?09:03
Deepssounds like he needs a much smaller distro with only a handful of users, whom are the developers? ;)09:04
sorennme_: Yes.09:04
nme_Deeps: speaking about me? speaking about Slackware?09:04
nme_soren: do You know that avahi in hardy caused arp flood at some kind of networks?09:05
nme_the problem was reported only by Ubuntu users09:05
sorennme_: No.09:05
Deepsi dont know anything about slackware so i'm certainly not speaking of that09:05
nme_it did not happen on any other distribution at the networks I administer09:05
sorennme_: I think I'm missing your point.09:06
nme_and the problem lasted for above halp a hear09:06
nme_half a year09:06
nme_how to make life easier for those 100 people? trust the community a bit more ;)09:07
sorenCan you elaborate?09:07
nme_about trust?09:07
Jeeves_soren: Create less bugs ;) That way it's easier to keep up. :P09:08
sorenJeeves_: Thanks, I'll make a note of that.09:08
soren:p09:08
sorennme_: Yes.09:09
Deepsnme_: by sitting here bitching to the people that actually do track the bugs and help resolve them, you're actually slowing things down more. if you want it to improve, get involved more yourself.09:09
Jeeves_mental note: Create better code, will create less bugs09:09
* Koon tries to fix more bugs than he reports, to be part of the solution ;)09:09
Jeeves_Koon: That's a good start :)09:09
Jeeves_I'll just try to ignore bugs09:09
Jeeves_That should save you guys work too :)09:09
nme_Deeps: I explain - Slackware is simple distro. Its very old one, maintained for a long time by one single guy. All he did was preparation of init scripts and making simple package system which are automatically build on default settings which project developer set. Belive me or not, it really works. If someone dislikes default - he rebuilds given package by his own.09:10
Jeeves_nme_: Why not join #slackware09:11
Jeeves_Or #swaret09:11
nme_gee only tried to help09:11
nme_suggest few approaches09:11
nme_all i see is an anger and hate now09:11
Jeeves_nme_: By telling developers to stop developing and trhowing people in the deep09:11
nme_I wont bitch to people anymore, sorry09:11
nme_Jeeves_: where I said this? who is this developer you mantioned?09:12
Jeeves_nme_: Slackware users are people that enjoy screwing around with themselves, enjoying pain and agony fixing a simple box.09:12
Jeeves_Ubuntu users like it to 'just work'09:12
Jeeves_That needs more development, and thus more bugs09:12
Deepsnme_: you can do that in ubuntu too09:13
nme_Thats why I suggest it to desktop users09:13
nme_y I know09:13
Jeeves_nme_: I administer a few hundred Ubuntu servers09:13
Jeeves_And we did Slackware before09:14
Jeeves_And we're all very happy that slackware doesn't exist anymore :)09:14
Deepsnme_: the flipside to the slackware model is that the packages wont conform to any standards, each package will do things differently as each developer will do things differently. ubuntu standardises a number of things aross all packages to make it easier to maintain. bugs occur in the process. and the joys that come with slackware allowing you to rebuild a package in the way you like also exist in ubuntu. apt-get source <package> and you're half way th09:14
Deepsnme_: so i dont see your point. slackware does less to make life easy for you and offers feature A. ubuntu does more to make life easy for you and also offers feature A.09:15
sorennme_: I still don't understand what you mean about trusting the community.09:16
Deepsnme_: you point out that slackware's great because you can fix stuff to work how you want it yourself, yet moan that ubuntu doesn't fix stuff quickly enough for you? and then suggest that slackware's better?09:16
nme_there is a point09:16
nme_Slackware actually originates from base tar.gz from developers project page09:17
sorenSo does Ubuntu packages..09:17
sorenbut go on.09:17
nme_if You got a problem with specific package, you can go to the project developers - not the distro maintainers09:17
sorenYou're free to do that with Ubuntu packages, too. Noone's forcing you to use Launchpad.09:18
nme_no. the guys will tell you to compile it as default - then check if a problem exists and then - report it :)09:19
Deepswell duh09:20
nme_k guys, lets have a break, got a bit work to do :/09:20
sorenSo what you're saying is that most bugs in Ubuntu are because we break things that were perfectly functional when the upstream developers shipped it?09:20
sorenIf that's truly what you believe, I'd advise you to find another distro. I wouldn't use a distro I didn't trust.09:20
nme_soren: "So does Ubuntu packages" -> apt-get source iptables09:21
sorenYes?09:21
sorenWhat does that give you?09:21
sorenIt gives you the original tarball + the code it takes to make it into an Ubuntu package.09:21
sorenWhat? You think Slackware just downloads the tarballs and stares at it until it turns into a binary package?09:22
KoonI also can testify that upstream prefer a distro with somewhat-unique compile flags than one where... every user uses a different set09:23
sorenheheh :)09:23
Jeeves_soren: No! You type 'pkg_install iptables' or 'swaret install' and than stuff happens, you hope09:23
Koon(if you see what I mean)09:23
Deepsi think nme_'s point in this case is that iptables comes from the debian package09:24
nme_soren: execute this command and see it for yourself09:24
sorennme_: Look. I *made* that package. I know what that command does.09:24
nme_no09:24
sorenNo??!??09:24
nme_im just pointing how many patches it got09:24
nme_its not pure iptables09:24
sorenYes. TO FIX BUGS!09:24
sorenWhat do you think happens? We download the upstream tarball and start looking around for random ways to break it?09:25
Jeeves_soren: There are no bugs in upstream packages, Patrick says so!09:26
Deepspaddy's always right09:26
Deepshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OydvSCGxt009:26
Koonthe main difference is that as a "distribution" we feel responsible for the bugs in the software we ship09:27
Jeeves_nme_: You're patrick?09:27
sorenIf that's what you think of us, I strongly suggest you find another distro. I wouldn't sleep well at night at all if I thought the people who made my distribution were monkeys on crack who spent all day harvesting bad patches from the internet and applied it to perfectly good packages.09:27
Deepssoren: wow, take IT seriously much? lol09:27
Deepsi sleep perfectly well knowing my OS is developed by monkeys on crack09:27
nme_Jeeves_: good one ;]09:27
* Deeps <3 winxp09:28
Jeeves_nme_: Really, what the **** are you doing in here?09:28
sorenJeeves_: Patrick?09:28
nme_Patrick J. Volkerding ;)09:28
nme_good sense of humor ;)09:29
Jeeves_soren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Volkerding09:29
sorenAh.09:29
nme_Jeeves_: wanted to help09:29
Jeeves_nme_: How?09:29
KoonJeeves_: I think he really wants to help09:30
nme_i only came to ask why there are no way to put comments on docs (which yesterday were marked as DRAFT)09:30
nme_because i did make step by step and found few problems09:30
Jeeves_nme_: You mean documentation bugs?09:30
nme_y i know that i should put it on launchpad09:31
Koonit's just that he has difficulties scaling community processes from small projects to something like Ubuntu09:31
nme_as commercial approach09:31
nme_there are many ways to get community work at Your profit09:32
nme_making less costs, letting you guys earn more09:32
* Kamping_Kaiser blink09:33
Kamping_Kaiserwtf is happening here?09:33
Kamping_KaiserJeeves_, evening mate09:33
Jeeves_Kamping_Kaiser: Hi there!09:33
Kamping_Kaiser:)09:34
Jeeves_Speaking of proprietary software09:34
* Kamping_Kaiser worries about the Kamping_Kaiser -> proprietary software mental jump09:34
Jeeves_Kamping_Kaiser:09:35
Jeeves_Just because Canonical produces proprietary support software doesn't09:35
Jeeves_justify other companies doing it (or making it an ok thing to do).09:35
Jeeves_What do you mean by that? :)09:35
Kamping_KaiserJeeves_, it sounded like the argument was 'canonical who own ubuntu do $FOO, so $FOO is ok for others to do' (which i think is a falacy). It may or may not have been relevant to the convo ;)09:36
Jeeves_Kamping_Kaiser: My point is that to make (good) money with open source, you need the open source to attrack people, and closed source as an extra to make money09:37
Jeeves_Exactly like Canonical does09:37
Jeeves_Nothing wrong with it09:37
Jeeves_The only thing that's wrong about Landscape, for instance, is that you cannot host the server part yourselve09:38
Kamping_KaiserJeeves_, thats entirely possible - I dont know if its true, but thats not an argument I can take part in - I dont know enough about such things.09:38
Jeeves_It's very much ok that it's closed source, and payware09:38
DeepsJeeves_: you think it's good that there's a tool being used to administer your server that you have no idea how it works?09:46
Jeeves_Deeps: I trust Canonical.09:47
Jeeves_They create the entire OS the server runs on09:47
Jeeves_the only part I'm interested in is easy upgrades09:47
DeepsNo, they produce a bunch of packages.09:47
Jeeves_Deeps: And they patch and compile the whole bunch09:48
DeepsWell, it's a bit more than that, but you get my drift09:48
Jeeves_So the create is09:48
Jeeves_s/s/t09:48
soren"To the create is" ?09:48
sorenWhat?09:48
Jeeves_soren: There isn't a /i!09:49
soren"So the create it"? What does that mean?09:49
Jeeves_okok09:49
Jeeves_+y somewhere :)09:49
soren"Soy the create it". Oh, ok.09:49
Jeeves_"So they create it."09:49
soren:p09:49
Jeeves_grmbl09:49
Kamping_Kaiserhehe09:49
Deepswhile it's a great business move for canonical, i think it's terrible that it's closed source. cant praise open source with one hand and then shoot it down with the other09:49
Jeeves_Anywho, I do trust Canonical and the Ubuntu community09:50
Jeeves_If I didn't, I would be running Gentoo09:50
Deepsmassively hypocritical09:50
nme_not Slackware?09:50
Jeeves_Deeps: No it isn't.09:50
nme_;)09:50
Jeeves_nme_: No, I don't trust Patrick09:50
nme_speaking of Landscape, do You guys know why DELL does not sell Ubuntu Server, saying that it does not work with their SAN arrays?09:50
DeepsJeeves_: NO U09:51
Jeeves_nme_: Dell hardware usually doesn't work at all.09:51
soren?!??09:51
Jeeves_So they only ship it with Redhat09:51
Jeeves_Which also doesn't work :)09:51
nme_RHEL or SUSE09:51
nme_they told us yesterday.09:51
sorenWhat does landscape, Dell and SAN's have to do with one another?09:51
Jeeves_soren: leave him alone! :)09:52
Jeeves_All these hard questions to answer!09:52
nme_to have Landscape access one need to have commercial Ubuntu, right?09:52
sorenBut I want to understand!09:52
Jeeves_nme_: There is no commercial Ubuntu09:52
sorennme_: I think you can buy it seperately, but let's say "yes" and see where this goes..09:52
Jeeves_:P09:52
nme_when we buy more hardware, we buy software too that will support the hardware.09:52
sorenRight, there's no "commercial Ubuntu". There's only one Ubuntu.09:53
soren...but you can buy a support contract, and when/if you do, you get landscape as well.09:53
nme_to have complete support we need it for hardware and software09:54
nme_ok, now I know :)09:55
sorenI'm still curious what Dell said.09:58
sorenDid they say it wouldn't work or that it wasn't supported. That's not the same thing.09:59
nme_there were two guys - one was sale oriented, the other - technical oriented, the second one - while chat, when I asked why RH, can't we run Ubuntu? He said that SAN array we will buy requires multipathing which does work on RH and SUSE and it DOES NOT work on Ubuntu because of some problems.10:06
Jeeves_nme_: Hmm10:10
nme_when we do the deal with Dell I'll run Ubuntu to check and solve it for myself anyway... but it might be possible to do it with IBM. Dont really know how they will react to my suggestion about Ubuntu instead of proposed RH at first shot.10:13
maswannme_: No, but I do know that for sanity and reliability, avoid any storage solution from dell at all cost. :)10:17
maswanOr at least have a "make it work or take it back" paragraph in your contract, so you have something to threaten with when it doesn't work10:18
nme_maswan: You're serious?10:18
nme_we are currently during conversation with IBM and Sun too...10:19
nme_but I dont like Sun anymore and they will fail with their offer anyway...10:19
maswannme_: I have several collegues at other sites that have had to go to the contractual "ok, then you'll have to take it back" before they got as far as getting someone that could actually give them some "oh, but you need this and that firmware, etc, etc" to make it work.10:20
Jeeves_nme_: I'd go for Sun. :)10:22
Jeeves_Dell sucks, bigtime10:22
nme_maswan: what other SAN solutions You consider better? we are running Sun storage which works quite good but soon the hardware wont be supported anymore.10:22
Jeeves_nme_: Keep on running Sun :)10:22
Jeeves_nme_: What kind of stuff do you need?10:22
Jeeves_SAS? FC? iScsi?10:23
nme_all in one would be the best10:23
nme_to have primary servers on FC but still have possibility to connect some server through iscsi10:23
nme_Dell says that they got FC and iscsi cards for their array but only one standard can be currently used at the time. You need to choose. They also say that in the future after some upgrade - two will be able to work concurrently10:26
Jeeves_nme_: That seems logical10:27
nme_what seems logical?10:28
joerlendsoren, you're a virtualization guy, right? When you make a virtual disk, that's very fast. Any idea how they do that? I mean, an 8GB disk was created in only a few seconds.10:29
nme_qemu-img create -f qcow2 sda.qcow2 8G10:29
nme_less than a second10:30
Deepsjoerlend: if it's not allocating the entire diskspace at creation time, then it's gonna be very quick10:30
joerlendright. But how does qemu-img do that?10:30
joerlendDeeps, again, that's what I want to do. :)10:30
nme_qcow2 data format10:30
joerlendif you copy that file, then it's still 8GB being copied?10:30
nme_joerlend: every app can open a file, seek to +8GB and write file10:30
nme_but qcow2 seems a better solution ;)10:31
joerlendseek is being used?10:31
nme_not in qcow210:31
Deepsjoerlend: you want to allocate all the space at creation time?10:31
joerlendthat is, you could use seek in dd to achieve the same effect?10:31
joerlendDeeps, someone wanted to make a large file in order to test something, but in a quick manner.10:31
nme_joerlend: exacly10:31
maswannme_: Oh, well, personally I would avoid SANs, in favour of less complexity. :)10:32
Deepsjoerlend: if you want the file to be empty, then it's relatively easy, if you want the file to have random data to minimize the effect of compression screwing up your tests, different matter10:32
Deepsjoerlend: or rather, it's still relatively easy, but not quick10:33
maswanwe have some ibm stuff though, and it kind of works.10:33
joerlendDeeps, thanks. :)10:33
Deepsif in the case of wanting random data, dd and /dev/[u]random are what you'll be most interested in, i suspect10:34
joerlendDeeps, lets say you wanted to create a 50GB file very quickly. What would you do? :)10:37
sorenjoerlend: It's a sparse file.10:37
joerlendright.10:37
Deepsjoerlend: google for some C code that will open a file descriptor, seek +50G and then write the file, or use dd if=/dev/zero10:38
sorenjoerlend: I'd use qemu-img.10:38
nme_ dd if=/dev/zero of=file seek=FILESIZE_HERE bs=1 count=010:38
Deepswhat nme said10:38
sorenqemu-img create somefile 50G10:38
sorenOr kvm-img, but you get the idea.10:39
* soren runs to get his power supply10:39
sorenphew... Nick of time.10:40
joerlendDeeps, soren: if you'd try to copy that file to another partition, then it would actually copy the filesize of nulldata?10:40
sorenjoerlend: Depends.10:40
joerlendon..?10:40
sorenStuff.10:40
soren:p10:40
joerlendhehe10:40
sorenProbably not.10:41
Deepswhatever you're using may realise it's all null data and compress it on the fly, artificially speeding up the transfer process10:41
joerlendthat was the usecase here. He wanted to test copying speeds with a large file.10:41
sorenIt would probably create another sparse file on the destination partition.10:41
Deepshense why you'd probably want to use a file filled with random data10:41
sorenOh. Just do "cp --sparse=never"10:41
joerlendthanks! :)10:41
Deepsor that10:42
nme_soren: you're virtualization guy, have you read any papers about how many virtual machines could work on specified numer of cpu / cores? im interested in some optimal amounts, You work on kvm only?11:07
sorenMostly kvm.11:07
sorenThere's no such number. It depends entirely on what the virtual machines are doing.11:07
nme_I tried Xen for a while but then I switched to kvm, works pretty good... I love qcow2 :)11:08
sorenI have a machine that runs 11 vm's.11:08
joerlendand even then it's difficult to choose solutions, since it's difficult to find real numbers.11:08
sorenThose VM's aren't very heavy, so it's not a problem at all.11:08
hadsYou might run 2 you might run 20 on the same hardware.11:09
sorenIn other cases I wouldn't run more than a single virtual machine on a physical machine.11:09
nme_I got some ancient "terminal servers" solution here... they work under Windows Server, their load is high. Primarily those servers worked only on physical machines 2x Xeon 2 GHz (one core)... currently placed one of them as a virtual on 2x Xeon Dual 1.86 GHz each, but seems that load is higher... and Im thinking about placing 2 same vm on single hardware dividing clients to those two virtual terminal servers, how you think - how will servers load behave?11:12
sorenLet me see if I understand correctly..11:14
sorenYou used to have two of these machines, each running on a Xeon 2 GHz?11:14
nme_some old xeon single core machines11:14
sorenRight.11:15
nme_now i got spare 2 x Xeon dual core 1.8 GHz11:15
nme_running Ubuntu11:15
sorenOk.11:15
hads$SOME load11:15
sorenAnd how many cpus have you assigned to the guests?11:16
nme_and Im running there kvm with exact copy of system from physical machine above11:16
sorenok.11:16
nme_I have 2 cores to VM (physical machine have 4 of them)11:16
nme_I gave 2 cores... ^11:16
sorenOk. The guest is running Windows?11:17
nme_y, Windows 2003 Server11:17
sorenAnd it's using both cores?11:17
nme_dont know how to check it - currently machine runs DRBD, kvm and 1 vm (this Windows 2003 Server), /proc/interrupts shows every single core is used in same manner...11:18
sorenThe guest.11:18
sorennot the host.11:18
nme_yes11:18
sorenErr...11:19
sorenWindows has /proc/interrupts now?11:19
nme_it uses 2 cores, I can give it 4 cores11:19
nme_naah, speaking about domu11:19
sorendomU is Xen-speak.11:19
nme_or whatever is should be called for kvm11:19
nme_how should I call it?11:19
sorenGuest.11:20
sorenOr virtual machine.11:20
nme_ok11:20
nme_Guest uses 2 cores simultanously11:20
nme_everything seems to be ok11:20
nme_I tried to run it on three cores but guest hanged after aprox 3 minutes11:21
sorenOk. I don't know then. If the guest is really using two cores, each running at 1.8 GHz, I would expect that to be faster than one core at 2 GHz, but it seems that every time I make assumptions about Windows...11:22
soren...let's just say that I should really not do that.11:22
nme_two one core cpu 2 GHz11:22
nme_but thats some old Xeons11:23
nme_there is sth like bogomips11:23
Deepsso you've gone from dual cpu 2ghz xeons, to single cpu dual core 1.8ghz xeons11:23
nme_Deeps: dont know exacly. machine have dual cpu dual core, i gave VM 2 cores.11:24
nme_i can run VM on 4 cores11:25
sorenThis is very confusing.11:25
nme_or i can run 2 VM on 2 cores11:25
nme_:/11:25
nme_ok, end of story then ;)11:25
Deepsrun 1 vm on 4 cores11:25
Deepsthen you should see a performance increase11:25
Deepsright now you've gone from (in very simple terms) 2x2ghz to 2x1.8ghz11:26
sorenthere you go making assumptions about Windows' performance again... Dangerous that is.11:26
Deepsin very simple terms, and from what you've demonstrated, there is an obvious performance loss11:26
sorenNo, he's gone from 1x2GHz to 2x1.8GHz... Right?11:26
Deeps1122.51 < nme_> two one core cpu 2 GHz11:26
Deepsmade me think its 2x2ghz11:27
nme_soren: 2x2ghz to 2x1.811:27
nme_soren: Deeps seems to be right11:27
Deepshe's not very good at expressing himself11:27
soren11:25:17 < soren> This is very confusing.11:27
Deepsin anything, it seems11:27
sorennme_: Well, of course that's slower. Why wouldn't it be?11:27
nme_I just thought that newer Xeons have better performance because of higher bogomips11:27
sorenThere's a reason they're called *bogo* mips.11:27
nme_higher bogomips, lower nm technology11:28
nme_hm ;)11:28
soren"the number of million times per second a processor can do absolutely nothing."11:28
nme_soren: right, but I did use this parameter to select new server for network traffic shaping + filtering machine and it helped me a lot11:30
sorenCoincidence.11:30
nme_soren: does newest virt-manager have possibility to create qcow2?11:31
nme_btw if you dont want to talk with me anymore just say it ;)11:31
=== incidenc1 is now known as incidence
sorennme_: I don't think it does, no.11:37
nme_is ubuntu-server able to run vanilla kernel?11:40
sorennme_: I think I don't understand the question...12:14
sorennme_: Why wouldn't it be?12:14
zulKoon: did you try my kernel?13:09
Koonzul: yes I did.13:09
Koonzul: fixes the issue when using -o nodfs13:10
KoonI think that's an acceptable solution, after all the bug is not really on our side, and we provide a way to workaround it13:10
zulKoon: sweet ill push that to my git archive today then13:10
sorennodfs? What's that?13:10
Koonsoren: a cifs mount option13:10
sorenOh, no dfs. Heheh :)13:11
Koonsoren: that workarounds a bug in samba 3.0.24 and 3.0.2513:11
sorenBug no?13:11
Koonbug 28682813:11
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 286828 in samba "Access to samba 3.0.24-3.0.25 shares using CIFS is broken on 8.10" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/28682813:11
sorenThis sounds very much like something I fixed a long, long time ago.13:12
Koonit was fixed serverside in 3.0.2613:12
Koonbut some unlucky souls are stuck with some buggy NAS13:12
sorenRight. I fixed it clientside, but that might have been in smbfs.13:12
sorenAs I said: Long time ago.13:12
sorenKoon: Hehe... Funny.13:14
sorenhttps://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+bug/286828/comments/8 <--- That's exactly what I implemented in smbfs.13:15
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 286828 in samba "Access to samba 3.0.24-3.0.25 shares using CIFS is broken on 8.10" [Undecided,Invalid]13:15
uvirtbotNew bug: #300671 in openldap (main) "happend while running do-release-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30067113:17
zulsoren: thats why I dont use windows13:19
axisyshow do I upgrade my ubuntu server to intrepid or sh'd I stick with hardy heron LTS ?13:31
sorenI'm clearly full of shit. It was something relating to UNIX extensions that I fixed in smbfs.13:33
sorenaxisys: If there was just one answer to that question, we wouldn't be supporting both choices.13:34
zulsoren: i thought smbfs was from debian13:41
soren-v13:43
zulsoren: sorry still not awake yet13:43
axisyssoren: i am sorry i did not follow your answer..13:43
sorenaxisys: i don't know you. I don't know your needs. I don't know your systems. I don't know anything. (Feel free to quote me on that last bit)13:44
axisyssoren: :-)13:45
sorenaxisys: If "hey, should I stick with Hardy or go with Intrepid" only had one answer, why would we offer both options? What would be the point?13:45
axisyssoren: don't know the point... ok so if I like to upgrade the ubuntu server, how do I go by doing it?13:46
sorenaxisys: Well, do you want to?13:46
axisyssoren: yes13:46
sorenOk. Because, you know, 15 minutes ago you weren't so sure. What changed?13:47
axisyssoren: dude!13:47
axisysin ubuntu client.. it is easy.. using software sources and update manager i can upgrade it.. i have no gui here plus it is at remote site13:48
sorenaxisys: I'm just trying to make sure that it's not something I said that made you think "oh sure, Intrepid's the only way to go".13:48
sorenaxisys: I'm still running Hardy on some of my server. Others are running Intrepid. One is even running Jaunty.13:49
sorenIt depends.13:49
axisyssoren: i found the answer in google.. thanks a lot13:49
sorenIf you want to run Intrepid, that's fine. 20 minutes ago, you weren't sure, and I'm just trying to help you make sure that you made the right decision. there's no turning back once you've upgraded.13:49
sorendo-release-upgrade is the magic incantation.13:50
axisyssoren: it is not in production.. so no biggie..13:50
sorenIt's in update-manager-core from hardy-updates.13:50
axisyssoren: yep I saw it13:50
axisyssudo aptitude install update-manager-core ; sudo do-release-upgrade13:51
axisysChecking for a new ubuntu release13:51
axisysNo new release found13:51
axisystoo funny13:51
axisyswe all know that is a lie13:52
jgjonesit's probably set to looking for next LTS only?13:52
jgjonesI remember that was the default on my hardy13:52
axisysjgjones: how do I change it? i13:52
jgjonesdunno13:52
jgjonesI'm still on Hardy :)13:52
jgjonesI am probably wrong because that was the option I saw on a *desktop* version of Hardy, not server...so I am just assuming here.13:53
axisyslooks like I have to edit this file first /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades13:53
axisysPrompt=lts need to change it to normal13:53
jgjonesyeah that would be right.13:53
jgjonesall my servers are LTS versions anyway (dabber and hardy)13:54
axisysjgjones: ok.. thanks for the input13:57
jgjonesno worries, you did most of the work yourself mind you :)13:58
axisysjgjones: :-)13:58
thefishi have a jeos 8.04 server connected to a kvm with a usb 'cam', i can use the keyboard in bios, and in the grub menu, and during install it worked fine, but when i get a login prompt the keyboard is non-responsive. anyone have any idea what to try?14:11
thefish(i had to drop to a terminal at the end of install to install ssh before the final reboot, this was the only way in)14:11
* Faust-C wonders how to reactivate BT, #ubuntu is useless14:12
Faust-Cthefish, from ssh do14:12
Faust-CX -configure14:12
thefishi have no x though14:12
Faust-Co14:12
Faust-Csrry14:12
Faust-Cwas thinking wrong14:12
Faust-Chmm14:12
thefish:)14:12
thefishye its just a login prompt14:12
Faust-Cis it usb kb?14:12
thefishits a usb "cam", effectively a usb keyboard though yes14:13
thefishsame cam works fine on a 6.04 server (thats a full server install though, not jeos)14:13
thefishso wondering if theres some kernel module that wants loading or something14:14
thefishah usbhid is not in the -virtual kernel conf14:16
Faust-Cmost likely14:16
uvirtbotNew bug: #300691 in tomcat6 (main) "tomcat6-instance-create should allow to specify ports" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30069114:31
_rubenrunning the -virtual kernel on bare metal seems a bit odd to me14:43
uvirtbotNew bug: #300699 in tomcat6 (main) "Provide APR based Apache Tomcat Native library" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30069914:51
thefish_ruben: is there another kernel that can be chosen for jeos during install?15:00
thefishspose its meant for virtual15:00
zulwheee..stupid cifs bug fixed15:53
sommerzul: strong work... and you deserve a trip down the slipper slide :)15:59
zulsommer: or a trip to california15:59
sommerheh, that too15:59
ScottKSo the first time I read that I misread a tr for the l some how.16:06
=== leonel_ is now known as leonel
=== Ju` is now known as Ju
geniiHi. I have a Q not directly relating to ubuntu but since I think may admins etc here, someone may know. How much money per foot is reasonable to pay for "last mile" of fibre-optic (in US or CDN $)19:27
geniiIf you know a better channel to ask in as well19:28
CroggeHey, anyone here who could help me a second, I have a SIL 3114 Controller in my Server and a RAID 10 configured over the SATA Controller. Now I want to install a dual boot win my windows 2000 advanced server (means I cant delete the raid), lspci detect the card but the install doesnt find the HDD.19:57
=== Dedi is now known as dedi_away
CroggeNobody here who use a Server with a S-ATA Controller?20:10
geniiCrogge: You may have to manually load whatever driver it takes20:14
CroggeI searched already in a lot of Forums but I cant find it20:15
CroggeThe funny thing is that the console detect the partitions20:15
Croggehttp://croggesserver.se/Images/Untitled%20863.jpg20:15
CroggeIt took me 2 days to get Windows 2000 Advanced Server running on it after Silicon Image mailed me the 10. driver20:17
CroggeAny idea why cat can find it but the install cant?20:17
geniiCrogge: The driver name is sata_sil , is it loaded?20:21
geniiCrogge: eg:  lsmod | grep sata_sil                        should produce a result20:23
=== jmarsden_ is now known as jmarsden|work
awsoonn_hi all, I'm thinking about thin clients, can ubuntu server serve out windows XP to a thin client?21:11
sommerawsoonn_: not sure what you mean?21:13
awsoonn_sommer: I wish to have a number of thin clients, some of my users want linux, some wish to have windows21:14
awsoonn_Can ubuntu server do this kind of thing?21:15
sommerawsoonn_: LTSP can serve linux to thin clients... I don't have any experience with it myself though21:16
sommerawsoonn_: I believe edubuntu makes it easy to setup21:16
awsoonn_ok, that's what I though. :( Thanks sommer21:17
sommerawsoonn_: edubuntu has irc channels I'm sure... you might ask there21:17
sommeror wait around here someone may know more :)21:17
awsoonn_I'll keep reading for now, hopefull someone might be able to chime in with a solution. :)21:18
geniiawsoonn_: Yes it can21:20
awsoonn_genii, do you happen to have a link wiht some juciy information :)21:21
awsoonn_have you ever used it? does it use KVM can it load balance netween servers, what if I have just under a thousand machines that I want to eventual move to thin clients? *excited*21:22
geniigenii: Not handy. But I have experimented with this and gotten a PXE boot server with choice of ubuntu,win98, and MacOS 7.521:22
jmarsden|workawsoonn_: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/server.html21:22
geniiawsoonn_: Basically anything which you could boot from a cd can be made to run from it21:22
awsoonn_but just pure PSE boot means I'm useing the thin client's resources, no?21:23
awsoonn_PXE**21:23
geniiawsoonn_: Yes. You want to actually run the os on server then?21:24
awsoonn_I wish to have a sort of KVM/XEN/VMWARE type situation where the desktop is accually decoupled from the thin client.21:24
awsoonn_:)21:24
awsoonn_is that not what the LTSP is?21:24
geniiawsoonn_: Yes :) For foreign os on that, not sure.21:25
jmarsden|workawsoonn_: Check out http://www.ulteo.com/home/en/news/2008/11/19 also?21:26
awsoonn_genii: and that's what I'm hopeing for :)21:26
geniiawsoonn_: Conceivably you could just run individual apps under wine from the server and then serve THAT, which could get interesting21:27
awsoonn_genii, my users would shoot me then fire me.21:27
awsoonn_:-p21:27
geniiHehe21:28
jmarsden|workawsoonn_: For multiple servers/load balancing with LTSP on Edubuntu, see http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/multiple-server-setup.html21:32
Croggegenii> Crogge: eg:  lsmod | grep sata_sil                        should produce a result  -> It does nothing, it just wait for the next cmd21:32
awsoonn_jmarsden|work: this ulteo thing is prety cool21:33
jmarsden|workMaybe... esp for networks with existing "fat" client PCs on them.  Anyway, read the Edubuntu handbook and the Ulteo docs, and then do a small test installation to try thing out and get a feel for what you really need.21:34
geniiCrogge: This means that the driver is not loaded for the sata controller which is in your box. So to load it, use: sudo modprobe sata_sil21:35
geniiCrogge: Try this before attempting any partition manager or so21:36
Croggenothing happen when I type it21:36
geniiGood21:36
CroggeI have the Ubuntu Server Disc in the Drive (Keyweb put it in for me) then I started the setup, choosed install ubuntu and pressed CTRL+ALT+F221:37
Croggethen the console opened and I tried to enter it21:37
geniiCrogge: When things work properly in command line it doesn't tell you "hey that went well" it just comes back to the next command prompt.21:37
Croggeoh ok21:38
CroggeI just started 2 weeks ago with Linux Servers to get a basic knowledge, I was happy when my software run good on my Linux VM21:38
CroggeNow I wanted to install it on one of my roots21:38
Croggeim a bit under pressure thats the reason why I joined this channel21:38
CroggeSo what should I do after I typed sudo modprobe sata_sil ?21:40
CroggeI really get out of ideas what I should do now, if I drop the raid then Windows would be gone too and I have no possibility to reinstall it21:42
geniiCrogge: At any rate. If you are used to the "hit f6 to install alternate driver disk" part of windows install, doing the:   sudo modprobe sata_sil           is similar21:44
Croggeah nice21:45
Croggeso it load the silicon image driver with this command?21:45
geniiCrogge: The modprobe command just loads whatever driver you name21:45
geniiYes21:45
Croggeok thanks21:45
Croggehow can I continue the install after I did this?21:45
geniiCrogge: You used something like alt-f1 or ctrl-alt-f1 ?21:45
Croggectrl+alt+f221:46
Croggeafter it asked for the system language21:46
geniiCrogge: Server cd?21:46
Croggeyes21:46
CroggeMy ISP gave it me21:46
Crogge64bit Ubuntu Server Edition 8.1021:46
geniiCrogge: Just cycle through alt-f1 alt-f2 alt-f3 alt-f4   til you find the console which the install is running on. I think f2    one of the consoles also shows all the output so far from the install process, which can be useful to watch sometimes for debugging21:47
Croggeah nice, got it :)21:47
Croggeits at the network card part atm21:47
Crogge(Skyfury look with me currently on the root with a kvm over ip device21:48
skyfuryyeh21:48
geniiAh, like a PCI Weasel or so?21:48
Croggeyes its similiar21:48
skyfuryi prefer gophers!21:48
Croggeour ISP gave it us21:49
skyfurya lil buggy to me this thingy21:49
CroggeWe can use it only for a few hours and hundreds of members wait that the server come back online, thats the problem21:49
Croggeyeh a bit21:49
skyfuryim afraid to control a server install through an java applet :-x21:49
Croggewell it work ok so far21:49
geniiskyfury: Me too21:50
CroggeIt says again "Installation step failed ... the failing step is: detect disks"21:50
geniiHm21:50
geniiWhen you look at the stdout console of alt-f4 or so, does it have anything enlightening to report?21:51
Croggeah yes21:51
Crogge"Installing dmraid-udeb"21:51
geniiDon't paste here if any more than a couple lines, use pastebin instead21:51
Croggeits one line only21:52
geniiCrogge: I haven't seen that package before21:53
genii!info dmraid-udeb21:53
Crogge"no RAID sets and with names: "sil_acabacaachdf-1"21:53
ubottuPackage dmraid-udeb does not exist in intrepid21:53
Croggeit fail there, then the disk-detect errors appear21:53
Crogge(When it try to enable dmraid)21:53
geniiCrogge: Is it a raid1 ?21:54
CroggeRaid 1021:54
CroggeAs I showed on the Screenshot its configured over the hardware controller21:54
Croggeone 80GB partition for Windows and the rest has no partition (free for linux)21:55
geniiCrogge: Yes. When the raid is *really* hardware then you should just see like a regular drive designation like sda or such21:55
CroggeThats the question, if it is a "true" hardware raid21:55
skyfurythe most are just fakes :(21:55
geniiCrogge: I haven't dealt with that particular controller before, so no idea21:56
CroggeWhen i task me "Activate Serial ATA RAID devices" and I select "no"21:56
Croggewhat could go wrong?21:56
geniiEverything? ;)21:56
CroggeCause Windows saw it as 1HDD21:56
CroggeIt even worked without driver but made a blue screen after it tried to boot21:57
Croggeonly with driver it worked afterwards21:57
geniiWell, if it was only raid1 you could deactivate it wouthout issue, since just forst one would boot. Raid 10 I dunno what might happen21:57
CroggeI see21:58
geniiAt any rate I have to go /away a while, this IRC client is on a remote box and will come /back in about an hour21:58
Croggesure, thank you for your help so far21:59
=== liberfiasco is now known as libervisco
lmatoshello there ...23:06
lmatoscan anyone help me with an hp dl 260 G4 ... not with installation, but with functionallity23:06
lmatosthe server does not seem to be booting23:07
lmatoswell ... it is not booting23:07
lmatosthe power suply led is off23:07
jmarsden|worklmatos: Well, the first things to check would be (a) is it plugged in to known good AC power and (b) is the power switch on the power supply turned on?23:15
lmatosjmarsden|work, on the power supply?23:18
lmatosthis power supply does not have one23:18
jmarsden|workIsn't there a 0-1 rocker switch on the PSU?  I'm not sure, trying to find the manualfor that server online, seems liek it is an older server model...23:18
jmarsden|workOK, then if it is connected to good AC power... you probably need to replace that PSU?23:19
jmarsden|workYou said HP DL 260 -- HP lists a DL 360 but I see no DL 260 mentioned on their site...?23:21
jmarsden|workSee http://h20180.www2.hp.com/apps/Nav?h_pagetype=s-001&h_lang=en&h_cc=us&h_product=241644&h_client=S-A-R163-1&h_page=hpcom&lang=en&cc=us23:21
* ScottK gives kirkland a smack in the head about -v when he builds the package for a merge.23:34
kirklandScottK: got it.23:40
ScottKkirkland: No problem.  We all forget that one sometimes.23:41
kirklandScottK: yeah, i had multiple working directories going on that merge23:41
kirklandScottK: ended up uploading the wrong one ... no functional differences.  but i also have a debian bug number for a patch I sent, left that out of the change log too23:41
ScottKkirkland: I finally just made it part of my personal workflow to always read .changes before I dput.23:42
ScottKI've caught myself on quite a number of mistakes that way.23:42
kirklandScottK: agreed, good plan23:42
* kirkland will do the same23:42

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