/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/11/25/#ubuntu-artwork.txt

robsta1hi thorwil13:19
thorwilhi robsta113:19
=== robsta1 is now known as robsta
robstathorwil: fyi, if nobody stands up to make a theme soon i'll release the css engine 0.3 without one13:27
robstamaybe a new release attracts designers13:28
thorwilrobsta: what's the status regarding making a theme from a single svg?13:30
robstathorwil: rsvg patch committed, not released13:31
thorwilrobsta: should i go with svn or tarball?13:34
robstathorwil: svn13:34
robstabut i need to activate the feature in the engine13:34
robsta(later today)13:35
thorwilis there an example/template svg?13:35
robstai'll set one up ASAP13:35
thorwilrobsta: i'm interested in that feature mainly for "prototyping" themes, but i guess nothing speaks against using an early attempt with it as example theme13:36
robstasomeone needs to send me an svg file with normal, active, prelight, selected insensitive buttons13:37
robstathen i'll set up a skeleton13:37
thorwilonly command buttons?13:37
robstayes, for a start13:38
thorwilrobsta: ok, will do that13:40
robstathorwil: rock13:41
thorwilrobsta: are you going to use named rectangles to find the right areas, similar to jimmac's single canvas workflow for icons?13:43
robstathorwil: by xml id13:43
thorwilrobsta: the states you listed are all exclusive, except selected?13:48
robstathorwil: all are exclusive, possibly not all are possible13:49
robstanormal, hover, pressed, insensitive would be a good start13:50
thorwilrobsta: prelight = hover and active = down, right?13:51
robstayes13:51
thorwilrobsta: selected is the thing used in dialogs, for the button tied to Enter?13:51
robstathat's probably something different13:51
robstaGtkButton[can-default=true] in CSS :)13:52
thorwilrobsta: but it also can't mean has focus, as i just saw a button with dotted rectangle for focus, keeping it during prelight and active13:53
robstathat's yet something different13:54
thorwilgtk.STATE_SELECTEDState of a selected item, such the selected row in a list.13:54
robstadoes probably not apply to buttons13:55
thorwilthat's just what i was thinking :)13:55
robstathat's why i said the other 4 would be a good start13:55
thorwilrobsta: how do you intend to handle the slicing for rounded corners?14:04
robstathorwil: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/14-border-image.png14:06
kwwiithorwil: I like the campfire sketch, very nice :-)14:42
thorwilkwwii: thanks :)14:42
* _MMA_ mentions that Inkscape SVN has new patches to make the "Blur" plugin use multicores/CPUs. ie: If you use the blur plugin on a pic it now uses multiple processors to render on-screen and to bitmap.14:45
robstahey kwwii14:47
kwwiihey _MMA_, robsta14:51
_MMA_yo yo.14:51
kwwii_MMA_: that is probably why it doesn't build on my machine :p14:51
_MMA_kwwii: As of when? I grabbed it fresh yesterday and it worked fine.14:52
kwwii_MMA_: it's been a week or so14:54
_MMA_Try now. People are reporting a 50% speed boost when using blur.14:54
kwwii_MMA_: in the meantime I have been finishing off the 2d panel icons14:55
kwwiiwow, that sounds amazing14:55
_MMA_Oh nice. I'll be hittin' Breathe hard in the next couple of days. Maybe Thur/Fri.14:55
kwwiianother thing I've been looking into is having the panel icons use two different themes (one for a dark panel and one ofr a light panel)14:56
kwwiiI think we will have a demo ready for UDS14:56
robstakwwii: just so you know, pretty much all set for css themes now :)14:58
* robsta craving for designs now14:59
_MMA_kwwii: Whenever you have something to test, lemmie know.14:59
kwwiirobsta: cool, I was discussing the gtk-css stuff in a planning session for 9.0415:13
kwwiirobsta: I am definitely pushing forward with making a theme but I guess 9.04 is a bit too early15:13
kwwii_MMA_: will do15:13
robstakwwii: 9.04 hmm, yeah15:13
_MMA_Well, for default sure. But for *something* maybe not. Maybe someone can do a simple theme that can be shipped?15:15
kwwii_MMA_: right, that was my plan15:15
* _MMA_ was thinkin' about learning CSS to try his hand at a theme.15:15
robsta_MMA_: do you know gtkrc?15:17
robstaanyway, at some point we'll have a template and you may just have to change the inkscape file :)15:18
_MMA_robsta: Yep. Pretty much.15:21
robsta_MMA_: then you're all set15:21
* _MMA_ does alot of the hacking on Ubuntu Studio's default theme.15:21
_MMA_robsta: Can I have a link to the current documentation for the CSS engine?15:22
robstadocumentation?15:23
_MMA_Yes15:23
robstayou can look at the existing themes15:23
_MMA_I understand it's CSS but everything has it's quirks.15:23
_MMA_So I'm looking for any examples and notes about issues.15:24
robstasure, i just didn't get around to write it, also because things have been in a flux15:24
_MMA_And this is the biggest place we "fail". We create things/code and only we know how to use it.15:25
_MMA_Documentation is key to get people to do theming.15:25
_MMA_Cimi actually did pretty well with this with Murrine.15:25
robsta_MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after15:26
robstathis is just a very young project15:26
_MMA_I'd love to help creatye buzz for this but I'm sure others will ask the same basic questions I have. :)15:26
_MMA_*create15:26
robsta_MMA_: i am very much pro docs and have complete API docs for libccss, the CSS library that's powering the engine15:27
_MMA_robsta: Them calling for people to test/create things at this point might be premature as well.15:27
_MMA_*Then15:27
robstaif you know gtkrc and css it's very natural15:28
_MMA_And you *seem* to be getting defencive. We're just chattin' here. ;)15:28
_MMA_*defensive15:28
robsta_MMA_: i'm not looking for buzz, just a single designer15:28
robstaan early adopter, who isn't afraid to try someting new15:29
_MMA_kwwii: Are the panel icons you're working a small set that depend on human?15:30
kwwii_MMA_: we are still working out how to do it exactly15:32
kwwiimost likely it will be a small set which depends on human, yes15:32
kwwiibut...as always there is a but15:32
_MMA_Ahh... Ok. Cool15:32
_MMA_I have no plans to mess with the Studio set but if you get this working I might consider adopting your changes.15:33
kwwiicool15:34
robsta_MMA_: no offense, i'm just a bit annoyed having had like half a dozen designers telling me how great it was, but nobody able to send me an svg file with just 4 buttons in it yet15:34
_MMA_robsta: Sure. It's still no reason to get pissy at someone. ;) Especially being the new guy around here. :)15:35
_MMA_kwwii: So no work from Mirco (MacSlow) on new GDM?15:36
_MMA_gah s/work/word15:36
kwwii_MMA_: actually, I am not sure what is going on with that15:37
_MMA_Ok.15:37
kwwiiI thought he was close to being done with that15:37
kwwiisince we moved teams around things have gotten a little confusing15:37
kwwiiI still haven't talked to my new boss yet15:37
kwwiiI don't think he knows he is my boss15:37
_MMA_I see. I'm sure UDS will shed some light on things.15:37
kwwiihopefully15:38
robsta_MMA_: i'll work on it if you point out where i was gettig pissy, honestly15:38
_MMA_haha! He is now? :)15:38
_MMA_"robsta: _MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after" *Usually* in the real world, when this is said with the pause that way it's a but forward/aggressive/shows annoyance. (which you admitted to)15:41
_MMA_SO though this 'ol interweb here is non-emoting there's a way to say things. Like I said, "We're just chattin' here. ;)".15:42
_MMA_kwwii: You pushed any changes to Jaunty yet? I'm thinking of taking the font sizes 1pt smaller in Studio.15:43
kwwii_MMA_: haven't done anything so far other than bug fixing15:44
kwwiiprobably a good idea, if you ask me though15:44
kwwiiand now that droid is out in the open, I think we could look into using that15:45
_MMA_Well, I'm already 1pt smaller than Ubuntu now. :P So I would go to something like 8,8,8,9,815:45
robsta_MMA_: i apologise; possibly my thinking to cross-check things with a technically (read: CSS and gtkrc) versed designer before diving into documentation is flawed15:46
_MMA_np15:46
_MMA_kwwii: I just felt on 1024x768 things still looked too, "Duplo". SO I've been using 8,8,8,9,8 on 1920x1200 & 1024x768 and it just feels tighter. More polished.15:48
kwwii_MMA_: one of the first things I do is to reduce them to 915:51
kwwiiacross the board15:51
kwwiiso I undestand you :-)15:51
_MMA_Yeah. I even felt 9 wasn't tight enough. And though that's what windows is set to, it still *looks* slightly larger. I'll push the change soon and see how things go.15:53
_MMA_I gotta put out a call for someone to revamp the website. @ years and it's gettin' a *little* stale.15:53
_MMA_s/@/215:53
_MMA_Need a Drupal themer.15:54
thorwilrobsta: you will have your buttons today ;)16:27
robstathorwil: \o/16:28
thorwilrobsta: and i don't think the way you approach this is wrong. but there are few designers and most are probably like me in always having several things to work on :)16:30
robstathorwil: it's kindof a chicken-and-egg problem16:49
thorwil4 button states, quick take: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png17:05
thorwilrobsta: you got mail. i organised the svg with layers, with rects in the layer "plates" as export targets. just to show how i would do it :)17:06
robstathorwil: teh awesomeness17:07
robstathorwil: must run now, are you on tomorrow?17:08
thorwilrobsta: sure17:08
robstacool, see you17:09
thorwilcya17:09
robstai'll try to do the theme directly from that file17:09
thorwil_MMA_: http://www.viceland.com/int/v15n11/htdocs/dark-lord-of-logos-302.php17:32
* _MMA_ knows his work well. :P17:51
_MMA_That interviewer was a tool.17:53
thorwildidn't read it, just viewed the slideshow :)17:53
* thorwil -> dinner17:54
thorwilis it even possible that a button will not have focus as soon as you click it?19:36
thorwilkwwii: can you explain the difference between widget-focus as typically denoted with a dotted rectangle and the default button mark in dialogs (orange border in ubuntu)?19:43
kwwiithorwil: not sure what you want me to explain20:02
thorwilkwwii: just got an explanation in gnome-art20:03
thorwilkwwii: it's about the separated keyboard/enter focus in dialogs20:03
kwwiithorwil: right, it is about keyboard focus vs. active elements20:03
thorwilkwwii: it's kinda broken in the Open dialog of Totem as i noted when playing with it to understand the model20:04
thorwilkwwii: you can tab the focus to the "Supported files" combo. it will then catch and react to enter without having that orange aura20:05
kwwiihrm, sounds freaky20:08
kwwiiI never liked the doted lines stuff...always seemed unecessary if you don't use a keyboard to navigate to me20:08
thorwili don't like the either20:08
thorwilbut having that other way of marking a button for enter-focus makes it much harder to do something else20:09
kwwiitrue20:09
thorwilkwwii: i'm extending that button svg i made for Rob. intention is to include _all_ states/combinations. might put it up with a call for designs. "how should a Ubuntu button look like?"20:11
thorwilof course i expect silence as answer :}20:11
kwwiikiller, sounds good20:13
kwwiisorry, putting my son to sleep20:13
kwwiiwell, to bed, not to sleep :-)20:14
kwwiithorwil: didn't see the button svg...link?20:16
thorwilkwwii: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png  i only mailed the svg to Rob20:17
kwwiilooks pretty good20:18
thorwilty. was a quick job, actually20:19
kwwiiI made a mockup somewhere with new ideas in it, naturally, I cannot find it now20:19
thorwilheh20:20
kwwiiahhh, yes...http://sinecera.de/mock.png20:28
kwwiinever got very far with that20:28
thorwildo i see a hint of a concave surface there?20:30
kwwiiyeah, probably not the best idea, looking at it now it looks a lot like keramik (very popular kde style fromt the 2.0 days)20:30
kwwiiI find that I keep making mockups which look quite like stuff I did 10 years ago :p20:31
thorwilwould be wicked to model actual buttons with hd foam, spray-paint them, light-setup, photos :)20:32
* thorwil has the material but not the tools20:36
kwwiithorwil: actually, a very good idea20:37
thorwilkwwii: but how to make it possible?20:39
kwwiithorwil: in the end it would probably be easier with a renderer anyway20:39
thorwili once started to model a button and surface with hole in blender to do the next best thing but didn't get far regarding lighting20:40
kwwiialthough I have tried blender a lot I never really liked the interface20:41
thorwilkwwii: do you have experience with other 3d apps?20:41
kwwiiI tend to use cinema 4D (been using that for like 14-15 years)20:41
kwwiithorwil: yes, before I got into linux I had a company with a couple of other guys working on music videos, tv commercials, etc20:42
thorwiloh. tried that once. cinema felt very clumsy to me20:43
kwwiidifferent strokes for different folks :-)20:43
thorwilheh, right20:43
kwwiiI just like the modeller in cinema4D20:43
thorwildamn, time slipping through my fingers :)  good night!21:08
=== _MMA_ is now known as MetalMusicAddict

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