[13:19] <robsta1> hi thorwil
[13:19] <thorwil> hi robsta1
[13:27] <robsta> thorwil: fyi, if nobody stands up to make a theme soon i'll release the css engine 0.3 without one
[13:28] <robsta> maybe a new release attracts designers
[13:30] <thorwil> robsta: what's the status regarding making a theme from a single svg?
[13:31] <robsta> thorwil: rsvg patch committed, not released
[13:34] <thorwil> robsta: should i go with svn or tarball?
[13:34] <robsta> thorwil: svn
[13:34] <robsta> but i need to activate the feature in the engine
[13:35] <robsta> (later today)
[13:35] <thorwil> is there an example/template svg?
[13:35] <robsta> i'll set one up ASAP
[13:36] <thorwil> robsta: i'm interested in that feature mainly for "prototyping" themes, but i guess nothing speaks against using an early attempt with it as example theme
[13:37] <robsta> someone needs to send me an svg file with normal, active, prelight, selected insensitive buttons
[13:37] <robsta> then i'll set up a skeleton
[13:37] <thorwil> only command buttons?
[13:38] <robsta> yes, for a start
[13:40] <thorwil> robsta: ok, will do that
[13:41] <robsta> thorwil: rock
[13:43] <thorwil> robsta: are you going to use named rectangles to find the right areas, similar to jimmac's single canvas workflow for icons?
[13:43] <robsta> thorwil: by xml id
[13:48] <thorwil> robsta: the states you listed are all exclusive, except selected?
[13:49] <robsta> thorwil: all are exclusive, possibly not all are possible
[13:50] <robsta> normal, hover, pressed, insensitive would be a good start
[13:51] <thorwil> robsta: prelight = hover and active = down, right?
[13:51] <robsta> yes
[13:51] <thorwil> robsta: selected is the thing used in dialogs, for the button tied to Enter?
[13:51] <robsta> that's probably something different
[13:52] <robsta> GtkButton[can-default=true] in CSS :)
[13:53] <thorwil> robsta: but it also can't mean has focus, as i just saw a button with dotted rectangle for focus, keeping it during prelight and active
[13:54] <robsta> that's yet something different
[13:54] <thorwil> gtk.STATE_SELECTED	State of a selected item, such the selected row in a list.
[13:55] <robsta> does probably not apply to buttons
[13:55] <thorwil> that's just what i was thinking :)
[13:55] <robsta> that's why i said the other 4 would be a good start
[14:04] <thorwil> robsta: how do you intend to handle the slicing for rounded corners?
[14:06] <robsta> thorwil: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/14-border-image.png
[14:42] <kwwii> thorwil: I like the campfire sketch, very nice :-)
[14:42] <thorwil> kwwii: thanks :)
[14:45]  * _MMA_ mentions that Inkscape SVN has new patches to make the "Blur" plugin use multicores/CPUs. ie: If you use the blur plugin on a pic it now uses multiple processors to render on-screen and to bitmap.
[14:47] <robsta> hey kwwii
[14:51] <kwwii> hey _MMA_, robsta
[14:51] <_MMA_> yo yo.
[14:51] <kwwii> _MMA_: that is probably why it doesn't build on my machine :p
[14:52] <_MMA_> kwwii: As of when? I grabbed it fresh yesterday and it worked fine.
[14:54] <kwwii> _MMA_: it's been a week or so
[14:54] <_MMA_> Try now. People are reporting a 50% speed boost when using blur.
[14:55] <kwwii> _MMA_: in the meantime I have been finishing off the 2d panel icons
[14:55] <kwwii> wow, that sounds amazing
[14:55] <_MMA_> Oh nice. I'll be hittin' Breathe hard in the next couple of days. Maybe Thur/Fri.
[14:56] <kwwii> another thing I've been looking into is having the panel icons use two different themes (one for a dark panel and one ofr a light panel)
[14:56] <kwwii> I think we will have a demo ready for UDS
[14:58] <robsta> kwwii: just so you know, pretty much all set for css themes now :)
[14:59]  * robsta craving for designs now
[14:59] <_MMA_> kwwii: Whenever you have something to test, lemmie know.
[15:13] <kwwii> robsta: cool, I was discussing the gtk-css stuff in a planning session for 9.04
[15:13] <kwwii> robsta: I am definitely pushing forward with making a theme but I guess 9.04 is a bit too early
[15:13] <kwwii> _MMA_: will do
[15:13] <robsta> kwwii: 9.04 hmm, yeah
[15:15] <_MMA_> Well, for default sure. But for *something* maybe not. Maybe someone can do a simple theme that can be shipped?
[15:15] <kwwii> _MMA_: right, that was my plan
[15:15]  * _MMA_ was thinkin' about learning CSS to try his hand at a theme.
[15:17] <robsta> _MMA_: do you know gtkrc?
[15:18] <robsta> anyway, at some point we'll have a template and you may just have to change the inkscape file :)
[15:21] <_MMA_> robsta: Yep. Pretty much.
[15:21] <robsta> _MMA_: then you're all set
[15:21]  * _MMA_ does alot of the hacking on Ubuntu Studio's default theme.
[15:22] <_MMA_> robsta: Can I have a link to the current documentation for the CSS engine?
[15:23] <robsta> documentation?
[15:23] <_MMA_> Yes
[15:23] <robsta> you can look at the existing themes
[15:23] <_MMA_> I understand it's CSS but everything has it's quirks.
[15:24] <_MMA_> So I'm looking for any examples and notes about issues.
[15:24] <robsta> sure, i just didn't get around to write it, also because things have been in a flux
[15:25] <_MMA_> And this is the biggest place we "fail". We create things/code and only we know how to use it.
[15:25] <_MMA_> Documentation is key to get people to do theming.
[15:25] <_MMA_> Cimi actually did pretty well with this with Murrine.
[15:26] <robsta> _MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after
[15:26] <robsta> this is just a very young project
[15:26] <_MMA_> I'd love to help creatye buzz for this but I'm sure others will ask the same basic questions I have. :)
[15:26] <_MMA_> *create
[15:27] <robsta> _MMA_: i am very much pro docs and have complete API docs for libccss, the CSS library that's powering the engine
[15:27] <_MMA_> robsta: Them calling for people to test/create things at this point might be premature as well.
[15:27] <_MMA_> *Then
[15:28] <robsta> if you know gtkrc and css it's very natural
[15:28] <_MMA_> And you *seem* to be getting defencive. We're just chattin' here. ;)
[15:28] <_MMA_> *defensive
[15:28] <robsta> _MMA_: i'm not looking for buzz, just a single designer
[15:29] <robsta> an early adopter, who isn't afraid to try someting new
[15:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: Are the panel icons you're working a small set that depend on human?
[15:32] <kwwii> _MMA_: we are still working out how to do it exactly
[15:32] <kwwii> most likely it will be a small set which depends on human, yes
[15:32] <kwwii> but...as always there is a but
[15:32] <_MMA_> Ahh... Ok. Cool
[15:33] <_MMA_> I have no plans to mess with the Studio set but if you get this working I might consider adopting your changes.
[15:34] <kwwii> cool
[15:34] <robsta> _MMA_: no offense, i'm just a bit annoyed having had like half a dozen designers telling me how great it was, but nobody able to send me an svg file with just 4 buttons in it yet
[15:35] <_MMA_> robsta: Sure. It's still no reason to get pissy at someone. ;) Especially being the new guy around here. :)
[15:36] <_MMA_> kwwii: So no work from Mirco (MacSlow) on new GDM?
[15:36] <_MMA_> gah s/work/word
[15:37] <kwwii> _MMA_: actually, I am not sure what is going on with that
[15:37] <_MMA_> Ok.
[15:37] <kwwii> I thought he was close to being done with that
[15:37] <kwwii> since we moved teams around things have gotten a little confusing
[15:37] <kwwii> I still haven't talked to my new boss yet
[15:37] <kwwii> I don't think he knows he is my boss
[15:37] <_MMA_> I see. I'm sure UDS will shed some light on things.
[15:38] <kwwii> hopefully
[15:38] <robsta> _MMA_: i'll work on it if you point out where i was gettig pissy, honestly
[15:38] <_MMA_> haha! He is now? :)
[15:41] <_MMA_> "robsta: _MMA_, look, there is limited value in spending half a day on documentation when things are thrown over the day after" *Usually* in the real world, when this is said with the pause that way it's a but forward/aggressive/shows annoyance. (which you admitted to)
[15:42] <_MMA_> SO though this 'ol interweb here is non-emoting there's a way to say things. Like I said, "We're just chattin' here. ;)".
[15:43] <_MMA_> kwwii: You pushed any changes to Jaunty yet? I'm thinking of taking the font sizes 1pt smaller in Studio.
[15:44] <kwwii> _MMA_: haven't done anything so far other than bug fixing
[15:44] <kwwii> probably a good idea, if you ask me though
[15:45] <kwwii> and now that droid is out in the open, I think we could look into using that
[15:45] <_MMA_> Well, I'm already 1pt smaller than Ubuntu now. :P So I would go to something like 8,8,8,9,8
[15:46] <robsta> _MMA_: i apologise; possibly my thinking to cross-check things with a technically (read: CSS and gtkrc) versed designer before diving into documentation is flawed
[15:46] <_MMA_> np
[15:48] <_MMA_> kwwii: I just felt on 1024x768 things still looked too, "Duplo". SO I've been using 8,8,8,9,8 on 1920x1200 & 1024x768 and it just feels tighter. More polished.
[15:51] <kwwii> _MMA_: one of the first things I do is to reduce them to 9
[15:51] <kwwii> across the board
[15:51] <kwwii> so I undestand you :-)
[15:53] <_MMA_> Yeah. I even felt 9 wasn't tight enough. And though that's what windows is set to, it still *looks* slightly larger. I'll push the change soon and see how things go.
[15:53] <_MMA_> I gotta put out a call for someone to revamp the website. @ years and it's gettin' a *little* stale.
[15:53] <_MMA_> s/@/2
[15:54] <_MMA_> Need a Drupal themer.
[16:27] <thorwil> robsta: you will have your buttons today ;)
[16:28] <robsta> thorwil: \o/
[16:30] <thorwil> robsta: and i don't think the way you approach this is wrong. but there are few designers and most are probably like me in always having several things to work on :)
[16:49] <robsta> thorwil: it's kindof a chicken-and-egg problem
[17:05] <thorwil> 4 button states, quick take: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png
[17:06] <thorwil> robsta: you got mail. i organised the svg with layers, with rects in the layer "plates" as export targets. just to show how i would do it :)
[17:07] <robsta> thorwil: teh awesomeness
[17:08] <robsta> thorwil: must run now, are you on tomorrow?
[17:08] <thorwil> robsta: sure
[17:09] <robsta> cool, see you
[17:09] <thorwil> cya
[17:09] <robsta> i'll try to do the theme directly from that file
[17:32] <thorwil> _MMA_: http://www.viceland.com/int/v15n11/htdocs/dark-lord-of-logos-302.php
[17:51]  * _MMA_ knows his work well. :P
[17:53] <_MMA_> That interviewer was a tool.
[17:53] <thorwil> didn't read it, just viewed the slideshow :)
[17:54]  * thorwil -> dinner
[19:36] <thorwil> is it even possible that a button will not have focus as soon as you click it?
[19:43] <thorwil> kwwii: can you explain the difference between widget-focus as typically denoted with a dotted rectangle and the default button mark in dialogs (orange border in ubuntu)?
[20:02] <kwwii> thorwil: not sure what you want me to explain
[20:03] <thorwil> kwwii: just got an explanation in gnome-art
[20:03] <thorwil> kwwii: it's about the separated keyboard/enter focus in dialogs
[20:03] <kwwii> thorwil: right, it is about keyboard focus vs. active elements
[20:04] <thorwil> kwwii: it's kinda broken in the Open dialog of Totem as i noted when playing with it to understand the model
[20:05] <thorwil> kwwii: you can tab the focus to the "Supported files" combo. it will then catch and react to enter without having that orange aura
[20:08] <kwwii> hrm, sounds freaky
[20:08] <kwwii> I never liked the doted lines stuff...always seemed unecessary if you don't use a keyboard to navigate to me
[20:08] <thorwil> i don't like the either
[20:09] <thorwil> but having that other way of marking a button for enter-focus makes it much harder to do something else
[20:09] <kwwii> true
[20:11] <thorwil> kwwii: i'm extending that button svg i made for Rob. intention is to include _all_ states/combinations. might put it up with a call for designs. "how should a Ubuntu button look like?"
[20:11] <thorwil> of course i expect silence as answer :}
[20:13] <kwwii> killer, sounds good
[20:13] <kwwii> sorry, putting my son to sleep
[20:14] <kwwii> well, to bed, not to sleep :-)
[20:16] <kwwii> thorwil: didn't see the button svg...link?
[20:17] <thorwil> kwwii: http://xs233.xs.to/xs233/08482/button_states864.png  i only mailed the svg to Rob
[20:18] <kwwii> looks pretty good
[20:19] <thorwil> ty. was a quick job, actually
[20:19] <kwwii> I made a mockup somewhere with new ideas in it, naturally, I cannot find it now
[20:20] <thorwil> heh
[20:28] <kwwii> ahhh, yes...http://sinecera.de/mock.png
[20:28] <kwwii> never got very far with that
[20:30] <thorwil> do i see a hint of a concave surface there?
[20:30] <kwwii> yeah, probably not the best idea, looking at it now it looks a lot like keramik (very popular kde style fromt the 2.0 days)
[20:31] <kwwii> I find that I keep making mockups which look quite like stuff I did 10 years ago :p
[20:32] <thorwil> would be wicked to model actual buttons with hd foam, spray-paint them, light-setup, photos :)
[20:36]  * thorwil has the material but not the tools
[20:37] <kwwii> thorwil: actually, a very good idea
[20:39] <thorwil> kwwii: but how to make it possible?
[20:39] <kwwii> thorwil: in the end it would probably be easier with a renderer anyway
[20:40] <thorwil> i once started to model a button and surface with hole in blender to do the next best thing but didn't get far regarding lighting
[20:41] <kwwii> although I have tried blender a lot I never really liked the interface
[20:41] <thorwil> kwwii: do you have experience with other 3d apps?
[20:41] <kwwii> I tend to use cinema 4D (been using that for like 14-15 years)
[20:42] <kwwii> thorwil: yes, before I got into linux I had a company with a couple of other guys working on music videos, tv commercials, etc
[20:43] <thorwil> oh. tried that once. cinema felt very clumsy to me
[20:43] <kwwii> different strokes for different folks :-)
[20:43] <thorwil> heh, right
[20:43] <kwwii> I just like the modeller in cinema4D
[21:08] <thorwil> damn, time slipping through my fingers :)  good night!