[16:00] <cjwatson> good afternoon
[16:00] <robbiew> good morning
[16:00] <slangasek> morning
[16:00] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[16:00] <robbiew> early morning TheMuso
[16:00] <mvo> hello
[16:01] <robbiew> evand is on vacation today, right?
[16:01] <cjwatson> yep
[16:01] <mvo> has scott joined us officially now btw?
[16:02] <cjwatson> once he's back from vacation ...
[16:02] <robbiew> yes...well not officially until UDS
[16:02] <robbiew> right
[16:02] <robbiew> doko: joining?
[16:02] <doko> online
[16:02] <robbiew> cool
[16:03] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
[16:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:03] <robbiew> I've posted the agenda on the wiki
[16:03] <robbiew> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/20081126#Agenda
[16:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/20081126#Agenda
[16:04] <robbiew> [TOPIC] UDS!!!!
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  UDS!!!!
[16:04] <robbiew> I *think* I've gotten all the sessions scheduled
[16:04] <robbiew> you should be able to see them at the summit.ubuntu.com link
[16:05] <robbiew> not sure if those without admin access can or cannot
[16:05] <mvo> I see no link to see a schedule
[16:05] <TheMuso> Nothing for me either.
[16:05] <robbiew>  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/
[16:05] <robbiew> nothing under Schedule?
[16:05] <mvo> no "Schedule" for me :)
[16:05] <robbiew> hmm...must not be open to the public yet
[16:05] <TheMuso> No
[16:06] <cjwatson> mvo,TheMuso: are you both registered to attend?
[16:06] <mvo> I think so
[16:06] <robbiew> strange
[16:06] <cjwatson> ... yes, apparently so
[16:06] <cjwatson> -> pitti
[16:06]  * mvo is actually pretty sure
[16:06] <TheMuso> Yes
[16:07] <cjwatson> I've asked him on #ubuntu-devel
[16:08] <robbiew> cjwatson: thnx
[16:08] <cjwatson> 16:07 <pitti> cjwatson: ATM yes, according to Scott, since it's still preliminary
[16:08] <cjwatson> anyway, interested people can follow there
[16:09] <robbiew> I've also created a roundtable section on the wiki
[16:09] <robbiew> so at least we have some topics ready to go
[16:09] <robbiew> feel free to add
[16:09] <slangasek> where on the wiki?
[16:09] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/December2008
[16:10] <robbiew> under "Roundtable Topics" ;)
[16:10] <robbiew> only have a few
[16:10] <cjwatson> I suggested that suitable roundtable topics would be general development discussions that aren't likely to need to turn into implementation plans
[16:10] <cjwatson> and are of reasonably broad interest
[16:11] <cjwatson> please recheck summit.u.c?
[16:12] <robbiew> well moving on
[16:12] <james_w> hi all, sorry I'm late
[16:12] <slangasek> recheck it for a calendar?  I can't see one, still
[16:12] <james_w> you can see the schedule if you go to /foundations/
[16:12] <robbiew> heh...directly
[16:12] <robbiew> good trick
[16:13] <TheMuso> Cool.
[16:13] <mvo> nice
[16:13] <doko> james_w: could you elaborate on distributed development toolchain in the wiki?
[16:14] <james_w> doko: now, or expand on it in the wiki?
[16:14] <cjwatson> doko: (doesn't mean toolchain as in the compiler, means toolchain as in the tools we use for dist. dev.)
[16:14] <doko> james_w: later in the wiki
[16:15] <james_w> doko: sure, but what cjwatson said.
[16:15] <robbiew> as for session leaders, we don't have to hash that out here
[16:15] <james_w> suggestions for a better title are welcom
[16:15] <cjwatson> james_w: perhaps "tools" or "toolset"
[16:15] <james_w> toolset it is, thanks
[16:16] <robbiew> I'll send email or irc folks with sessions that I *think* they should lead
[16:16] <robbiew> then we can go from there
[16:16] <robbiew> feel free to let me know if there's any of them that you are dying to lead ;)
[16:16] <cjwatson> if you need to get a brain-dump of anything from me, please do so by close of play tomorrow
[16:17] <cjwatson> otherwise you'll probably miss your chance
[16:17] <robbiew> right...I think we've covered them all, so I'm fine
[16:17]  * robbiew promises NOT to call cjwatson on his mobile
[16:17] <robbiew> heh
[16:18] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Bugs
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs
[16:18] <cjwatson> feel free to SMS if it's urgent, then I can decide when/how to respond ;-)
[16:18] <robbiew> ok
[16:19] <robbiew> besides reviewing the Milestoned/Targeted as usual, there will be a major effort to address bugs during the release
[16:19] <robbiew> and then hopefully establish this as the "norm" in subsequent releases
[16:20] <robbiew> Matt has told us that he will support dropping features if we deem it necessary to fix a reasonable amount of bugs
[16:20] <robbiew> our trick is to find that balance
[16:21] <cjwatson> I'm going to extend the bugfix-history thing I hacked up, or pass it over to somebody for extensions
[16:21] <cjwatson> (http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bugfix-history/plots/month-fixed.png)
[16:21] <robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thanks
[16:22] <cjwatson> if we pushed the fix-upload rate up by a couple of hundred a month, we'd be able to start decreasing the number of outstanding bugs
[16:22] <cjwatson> so even a little bit of rebalancing here could be really very useful
[16:23] <robbiew> moving on
[16:23] <cjwatson> (over the last six months, the net increase in open bugs comes to about a thousand)
[16:24] <robbiew> yuk
[16:24] <cjwatson> (out of 48000 or so)
[16:24] <robbiew> IMO that's a tremendously large backlog
[16:24] <robbiew> is there any effort to close bugs that we simply will not fix
[16:24] <cjwatson> it is huge, although that's the whole archive; I haven't filtered out just main there
[16:25] <cjwatson> closing bugs that we simply won't fix is politically tricky; we do have a state for it but of course it's rarely much comfort to the hapless reporter
[16:25] <robbiew> right
[16:26] <slangasek> one thing I've noticed when doing merges is that there are a number of packages that simply don't have anybody watching their bugs in main
[16:26] <cjwatson> I think we should probably do it a little bit more than we do, though
[16:26] <cjwatson> we err on the conservative side there
[16:26] <slangasek> because one package I merged had over half its bugs mis-assigned to the package
[16:26] <slangasek> and I was wondering if we shouldn't figure out some way to make sure we have /someone/ monitoring bugs for each package, on some level
[16:26] <doko> slangasek: but this is intentional until now
[16:27] <robbiew> cjwatson: perhaps a better sounding reason, like "Resources Unavailable to Fix"
[16:27] <slangasek> doko: well, one of the effects is that bugs that might be trivial for the person who touched-it-last to fix may languish indefinitely
[16:27] <doko> or just distinguish between state and reason?
[16:28]  * robbiew sometimes misses bugzilla
[16:28] <cjwatson> I think there may perhaps be more effective ways to get through the backlog than to end up getting into thousands of little separate arguments about whether bugs should remain open
[16:28] <robbiew> true
[16:29] <cjwatson> in many of the cases the bugs really are pretty trivial and reporters are rightly annoyed that it's taken us so long to get round to them
[16:29] <cjwatson> I'd like to limit the scope of what we pay attention to of course, it shouldn't be all 48000
[16:30] <robbiew> in my prior job, I managed a team that's entire job was monitoring the bugs...ensuring both submitters and those assigned to fix were paying attention
[16:30] <robbiew> maybe we need a team like that...but that's way out of the scope of this meeting :)
[16:30] <cjwatson> that's Henrik's team
[16:30] <cjwatson> conceptually anyway
[16:30] <robbiew> changing gears
[16:31] <james_w> I see a "Foundations bugs" discussion on the schedule, is that to discuss this
[16:31] <james_w> or is that a meeting with gmb from launchpad to discuss how launchpad could help us more?
[16:31] <cjwatson> the "Foundations bugs" session is a slot for us with the Launchpad Bugs team
[16:31] <cjwatson> right, the latter
[16:31] <robbiew> we can bring this up in a Roundtable
[16:31] <cjwatson> if any of you have been using the launchpadlib APIs for bugs, that'd be a good place to discuss your experiences and request extensions, for instance
[16:31] <james_w> cool, gmb got plenty of that from us in Lexington, he'll be well prepared :-)
[16:32] <cjwatson> (main/restricted comes to 30000 bugs)
[16:32] <mvo> better launchpad support++
[16:32] <TheMuso> I don't use launchpad api, but I do use email.
[16:32] <TheMuso> And email still lacks things like changing the package for a bug, as opposed to opening a new task, and invalidating the other.
[16:32] <james_w> a session discussing what bugs to target, how to find them etc. would probably be a good one to have. robbiew: is that what you meant for the roundtable?
[16:33] <robbiew> james_w: yes
[16:33] <james_w> great
[16:33] <cjwatson> find> and track on an ongoing basis so that we can (a) not lose things we decided we wanted to fix (b) measure our progress (c) show off our progress if it's any good :-)
[16:33] <cjwatson> the QA team has offered to help there
[16:34] <robbiew> right, I should point out that this is across the entire Ubuntu team...not just Foundations
[16:35] <robbiew> anything else on bugs?
[16:35] <robbiew> .
[16:35] <robbiew> ..
[16:35] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
[16:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
[16:36] <robbiew> I've noticed some include sponsorship queue work in their activity and some don't
[16:36] <robbiew> is everyone supposed to be doing this?
[16:37]  * robbiew is still new
[16:37] <cjwatson> everyone who has upload privileges should be spending an hour a week on sponsorship
[16:37] <robbiew> ah, ok
[16:38] <cjwatson> (i.e. all members of ubuntu-core-dev or ubuntu-dev)
[16:38] <TheMuso> Well perhaps shouldn't we remove bugs from the sponsorship queue that are otherwise waiting for something to happen? I have checked the queue a few times, and I still see bugs that are waiting for something from the person who's work is being sponsored etc.
[16:39] <james_w> I prefer not to do that
[16:39] <TheMuso> I personally would find things easier if the main-sponsors queue only had bugs showing that need attention from a sponsor.
[16:39] <slangasek> so s/shouldn't/should/, you mean?
[16:39] <james_w> daniel just changed http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ to show who the last commenter was
[16:39] <mvo> it would be nice to have it sorted by new item, but it seems to be difficult (from a technical POV)
[16:39] <slangasek> mvo: LP has "bug age" and "last touched" sort orders?
[16:40] <TheMuso> slangasek: yes
[16:40] <mvo> slangasek: right, I should try that, I was refering to the sponsoring page itself, but I should try lp I guess
[16:40] <TheMuso> james_w: Ok thats nice to know, thanks.
[16:40] <james_w> TheMuso: core-dev are in bold for easy scanning, does that work for you?
[16:41] <slangasek> ah; I've stopped using the sponsoring page in favor of the LP view @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-main-sponsors
[16:41] <TheMuso> james_w: Not really,
[16:41] <james_w> TheMuso: perhaps you would like to talk to Daniel about changing it so that it would
[16:41] <TheMuso> james_w: Bold only is useful if I ask what font/style the text is in from the reader.
[16:41] <mvo> slangasek: that view (with "last touch") is what I want, thanks
[16:41] <TheMuso> james_w: I'll try his page, and the URL slangasek gave and see whether any of those work better for me.
[16:42] <robbiew> TheMuso: don't some readers change the pitch of voice to indicate bold?
[16:42] <TheMuso> robbiew: Its not possible in orca at the moment.
[16:42] <robbiew> ah
[16:42] <TheMuso> I'll double check, but I don't think so.
[16:43] <TheMuso> robbiew: I also use a text mode browser for some things, as I find it more efficient, as orca+firefox is still somewhat clunky.
[16:44] <robbiew> well, if I'd appreciate it, if people could be sure to mention any sponsorship work in their reports...no big details needed
[16:45] <robbiew> moving on to a topic I'm sure we all love
[16:45] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Google Calendars
[16:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  Google Calendars
[16:46] <robbiew> I know it's a pain in the @$$
[16:46] <TheMuso> No kidding.
[16:46] <slangasek> the mail said we were supposed to receive invites to set up accounts? I haven't received one yet
[16:46]  * mvo neither
[16:46] <robbiew> you can setup yourself
[16:46] <robbiew> one sec, let me find the link
[16:47] <mvo> is there a wiki page or something that we can follow?
[16:47] <robbiew> http://partnerpage.google.com/canonical.com
[16:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://partnerpage.google.com/canonical.com
[16:47] <cjwatson> if you set it up yourself it won't be in the canonical.com domain, will it?
[16:47] <robbiew> yes
[16:47] <cjwatson> ask Jeremy Northeast for a password, he's been doing that
[16:47] <robbiew> I did
[16:47] <robbiew> what happens is that you have to provide a canonical.com address
[16:47] <robbiew> and it sends a verification email
[16:47] <slangasek> oh, I /just/ received login info
[16:47] <robbiew> heh
[16:48] <cjwatson> robbiew: ah
[16:48] <slangasek> hrm, but he doesn't say what I'm supposed to do with the l/p info
[16:48] <robbiew> slangasek: hmm
[16:48]  * robbiew looks for the link he used
[16:48] <cjwatson> slangasek: http://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/canonical.com
[16:48] <slangasek> ok
[16:49] <robbiew> cjwatson: thnx
[16:49] <robbiew> that's probably enough on that subject
[16:50] <robbiew> see warthogs if you want more opinions/info than you ever thought you needed
[16:50] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Armel specific build fixes
[16:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Armel specific build fixes
[16:50] <robbiew> doko: this is yours :)
[16:51] <doko> well, yes. there are some bugs tagged ftbfs-armel
[16:52] <doko> these should get some attention, many of those are kde related, but not all.
[16:52] <james_w> any news on a porter box? I know it's not always required, but it would sometimes help.
[16:52] <cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ftbfs-armel
[16:53] <doko> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ might give some hints as well. note that the build failure on armel doesn't mean it doesn't occur on other archs, it's not yet built there
[16:53] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ might give some hints as well. note that the build failure on armel doesn't mean it doesn't occur on other archs, it's not yet built there
[16:53] <cjwatson> james_w: we're due to get one, but waiting on hardware
[16:53] <cjwatson> but it's definitely on davidm's list
[16:53] <james_w> thanks
[16:53] <cjwatson> I agree that it would help quite a bit
[16:53] <james_w> on a related note, if I wanted access to porter boxes would I just ask IS?
[16:53] <cjwatson> it's also useful if people could look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing-ports/jaunty_probs.html and try to diagnose uninstallability
[16:54] <cjwatson> that's often perfectly feasible with no hardware but a bit of creativity
[16:54] <cjwatson> any Canonical developer can ask to be added to the porting_team group, which gives access to all the porting boxes
[16:54] <doko> cjwatson: I usually test uninstallability on an armel box itself by trying an apt-get install, the page alone doesn't help that much
[16:54] <cjwatson> file an RT request
[16:55] <cjwatson> doko: I wasn't speaking theoretically; I have been using that page to help with installability problems, despite having no armel hardware
[16:55] <cjwatson> doko: yes, it takes a little bit longer because you have to use dpkg -I on an archive to figure out what's wrong, but it's not that bad
[16:55] <slangasek> doko: you pung me last week while I was in Lexington about an armel failure you wanted me to look at, and I've misplaced the reference; do you still need me to look at it, and if so can you remind me the package?
[16:55] <mvo> I guess we could simulate something with a bit of "apt-get install -O Apt::Architecuture=armel" magic
[16:56] <doko> slangasek: no, fixed it
[16:56] <mvo> (to get better diagnosis why something is uninstallable)
[16:56] <doko> libgda
[16:56] <cjwatson> mvo: if you can put together a recipe, that would be generally very useful
[16:56] <slangasek> ok
[16:56] <mvo> cjwatson: will do after the meeting, sounds like a fun hack
[16:57] <robbiew> 3 minutes left
[16:57] <robbiew> doko is it okay to move the next agenda item to next week?
[16:58] <doko> sure
[16:58] <robbiew> thn
[16:58] <robbiew> thnx
[16:58] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:58]  * TheMuso will be traveling this time next week.
[16:58] <robbiew> right
[16:58] <robbiew> cjwatson is gone for two weeks
[16:59] <robbiew> cjwatson: tomorrow is your last day, right?
[16:59] <cjwatson> yeah, it's looking like it
[16:59]  * robbiew takes a deep breath and assures himself that "HE WILL BE OKAY"
[16:59] <robbiew> lol
[17:00] <james_w> all the best cjwatson, you will be missed at UDS.
[17:00] <cjwatson> thanks!
[17:00] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
[17:00] <mvo> yeah, all the best!
[17:00] <robbiew> yep...and I'll have you on speed-text
[17:00] <robbiew> :P
[17:01] <robbiew> thanks all...good meeting
[17:01] <TheMuso> Thanks.
[17:01] <ara> hello :-)
[17:01] <schwuk> hi ara
[17:06] <pedro_> hello
[17:06] <pedro_> sbeattie: ogasawara ping?
[17:06] <sbeattie> hey
[17:07]  * ogasawara waves
[17:08] <ogasawara> do we have an agenda for today?
[17:08] <pedro_> i don't see any agenda item for today, does anybody has anything to add or shall we do a quickie ?
[17:08] <pedro_> i have just one reminder ;-)
[17:08] <cr3> perhaps we could mention topics relating to uds?
[17:19] <pedro_> ok.. there's a lot to do on the SRU side: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
[17:20] <pedro_> esp on hardy/intrepid, if you can help , please enable the proposed repositories and give feedback on those reports
[17:21] <ogasawara> re QA UDS specs, they should be listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
[17:22] <pedro_> yep and on that topic there's also : http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/qa/
[17:28] <pedro_> any other business?
[17:28] <ogasawara> none here
[17:28] <ara> nop, but thanks for the reminder on the specs for the uds
[17:29] <ara> I was on holidays last week and I am trying to catch things up
[17:30] <pedro_> let's wrap then, thanks everybody!
[17:30] <ara> thanks!