[00:00] <kwwii> man, sometimes I think I could get a tan from my monitor
[00:08] <_MMA_> haha
[00:08] <_MMA_> Im looking at addin' 2 more.
[00:08] <_MMA_> I just bought another GFX card to drive the other 2.
[00:08] <kwwii> well, with the two macs and the thinkpad I realized that the monitors are brighter than my lights in the roomo
[00:08] <_MMA_> I want to run 20",24",20".
[00:09] <_MMA_> hehe
[00:09]  * _MMA_ hands Ken some shades.
[00:13] <kwwii> dude, my dad is going to drive up to san fran (from phoenix) during the UDS to see me
[00:13] <kwwii> not sure whether to be touched or cry
[00:14] <kwwii> my dad still has the laptop from his last job before he retired 15 years ago
[00:15] <kwwii> I asked him if he had internet access and he told me he has his AOL if that is what I mean
[00:15] <kwwii> this from the guy who was, to some extent, responsible for Unix at Bell Labs all those years ago
[00:16] <_MMA_> ha! Cool.
[00:17] <_MMA_> Man I wish I was going to this one. :(
[00:18] <_MMA_> kwwii: Can't sleep?
[00:18] <kwwii> _MMA_: nope, not sure what is up...I fell asleep reading a book earlier tonight and woke back up
[00:18] <_MMA_> Ahh...
[00:18] <kwwii> my inner clock has gotten kinda messed up
[00:19] <kwwii> getting used to being awake at the wierdest times
[00:19] <_MMA_> I'm just finishing up some Breathe work. Done pushing to BZR for now. Mostly placeholder kinda stuff.
[00:20] <kwwii> oh, yeah...let me check it out on the new computer
[00:22] <_MMA_> I gotta add some symlinking to the build script. Otherwise, I have redundant images.
[00:22] <_MMA_> And the folder icon needs sixe work.
[00:22] <_MMA_> *size
[00:23] <kwwii> oh yeah, one thing about reflections and such in icons (like the folder)
[00:23] <kwwii> some apps add a glow effect around icons
[00:24] <kwwii> which would be totally messed up with any icon ending in transparency
[00:24] <_MMA_> The reflection is gone. Has been for some time.
[00:24] <kwwii> cool
[00:24] <kwwii> hrm, for some reason bzr is not playing nice here
[00:24] <_MMA_> I just didnt take it of the front page of the wiki.
[00:24] <_MMA_> *off
[00:25] <kwwii> ahhh, I forgot to add my ssh key for this computer I guess
[00:25] <_MMA_> Shouldn't need it to just pull.
[00:26] <kwwii> I do not have them on this computer already, need to branch them
[00:27] <kwwii> I and I did a bzr launchpad-login without adding the key
[00:29] <kwwii> now it works, just takes time
[00:30] <_MMA_> :)
[00:32] <kwwii> while I look at this stuff, check out the sounds in http://sinecera.de/DS_UBU_LIN.tar.bz2
[00:34] <kwwii> hrm, the first thing I notice is that the small versions need work. There is no shame in changing the angle of view slightly for small icons (nothing too radical though, the basic look should be the same)
[00:34] <kwwii> the remember, small icons will look different than the large sizes if they still look good
[00:34] <kwwii> otherwise they will look like little small blurry things
[00:34] <_MMA_> Yep. I'd say half are from Oxygen ATM so let me know which ones you are talking about.
[00:35] <kwwii> the text editor, for instance
[00:35] <kwwii> bascially, the apps at 16x16 need work
[00:36] <kwwii> totem and rythmbox at 22x22
[00:36] <kwwii> maybe text-editor too
[00:37] <_MMA_> I wanna be careful with the upstream app icons. I don't wanna screw with their branding too much.
[00:37] <kwwii> oh, I am not saying you couldn't make the icons work with the current designs
[00:38] <kwwii> they just need work :-)
[00:38] <kwwii> making more contrast
[00:38] <_MMA_> sure, sure.
[00:38] <kwwii> and more definite lines, etc
[00:38]  * kwwii was an old-school pixel pusher
[00:39] <_MMA_> I'd be glad to see you help out. :)
[00:39] <kwwii> I wish I could find the time
[00:39] <kwwii> recently I have been working on the panel icons again
[00:39] <_MMA_> I think once I get placeholders there it will be easier to work on. Just grab and go. People can see what's done and refine.
[00:39] <kwwii> yes, true
[00:40] <kwwii> the small icons in oxygen were pretty much crap until david miller came along and starting working on them
[00:40] <kwwii> he doesn't make many large icons but he made most of the small ones
[00:40] <kwwii> it takes a totally different mindset than doing semi-photorealistic stuff
[00:41] <_MMA_> Alot of the mimes only have scaliable ans then 22x22/16x16. So I'm havin' to fill in the gaps.
[00:41] <_MMA_> s/ans/and
[00:45] <kwwii> well, I am mainly talking about the 16 and 22 icons anyway
[00:45] <_MMA_> Gotcha
[00:50] <kwwii> btw, don't worry about the guy who said it looks like mac
[00:50] <kwwii> just ignore it
[00:50] <kwwii> anything else will just piss people off (even if you are right)
[00:52] <_MMA_> Oh I know. I just didn't feel like being quiet. Even if it was the "PC" thing to do. :P
[01:36] <kwwii> oh well, just called my mom for thanksgiving...time now for sleep
[01:36] <kwwii> night all
[01:37] <_MMA_> Night Ken
[15:26] <thorwil> hi!
[15:28] <thorwil> _MMA_, kwwii: i'm not only in favor of creating a moderated mailing list, i'm also in favor of closing the current one. or transforming it. that kindergarden is only a waste of time. even for the children ;)
[15:55] <_MMA_> thorwil: It's a hard thing to balance. Moderating the current one would be a pain and raise the barrier for entry for alot of people. Would also surely bee seen as elitist. I'm defiantly thinking of open a ML through Launchpad for Breathe so it can have a focused place in which to work. The signal to noise is just too much to deal with.
[15:55] <thorwil> _MMA_: elitism can be good ;)
[15:56] <_MMA_> I'd almost rename the current one to art-chat and make a modded one. In the end, I don't know the right answer.
[15:59] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'd say the forum is the right place for "art-chat"
[16:27] <kwwii> I tried to get things changed but was ignored
[16:28] <kwwii> ie I tried to create a new moderated list but my request has been, until now, ignored for whatever reason
[16:28] <thorwil> sucks
[16:29] <kwwii> yepp
[16:30] <thorwil> kwwii: but i really think keeping an unmoderated list around would be a mistake. just take a handful of people of the current list out and all that is left would be blathering
[16:30] <kwwii> I guess I could just make the current list moderated
[16:30] <kwwii> thorwil: sure, except every now and then someone talented comes along
[16:31] <kwwii> we still need some place for newbies, as painful as that can be
[16:33] <thorwil> kwwii: sure. but the current list will not help us to instill the right behavior and ideas in promising newcomers
[16:35] <kwwii> thorwil: true
[16:35] <kwwii> maybe the best thing would be to make it a moderated list
[16:35] <kwwii> it would cut a lot of people off, but maybe in doing so we could suggest other places for them to hold such discussion
[16:36] <thorwil> right
[16:36] <kwwii> (the forum, ubuntu-art.org, etc.)
[16:39] <thorwil> btw, i had to change plate names in the svg button template once more. just in case anyone reading here is going to use it :)
[16:43] <kwwii> how well does that work so far?
[16:44] <thorwil> kwwii: this wel: http://www.gnome.org/~robsta/gtk-css-engine/screenshots/15-single-canvas.png
[16:44] <kwwii> thorwil: wow, that is pretty good progress
[16:45] <kwwii> where is this hosted?
[16:46] <thorwil> gnome svn
[16:47] <thorwil> http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gtk-css-engine/trunk
[16:48] <thorwil> kwwii: was going to be on the bzr-playground of gnome, but Rob couldn't lock in there
[16:50] <kwwii> thorwil: cool, so you edit the theme.svg and make sure the id's in the svg match what is in the theme.css, right?
[16:50] <thorwil> kwwii: requires librsvg frsh from the repo, i think. havn't actually checked out anything, yet :}
[16:50] <kwwii> hrm, I will have to bug robsta about this
[16:50] <thorwil> kwwii: yes. using plates as in the single canvas icon workflow
[16:52] <thorwil> kwwii: wasn't robsta bugging _you_? ;)
[16:58]  * thorwil tries to find the librsvg repo
[16:59] <thorwil> must be http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/librsvg/trunk/
[17:01] <thorwil> not
[17:04] <thorwil> http://svn.gnome.org/svn/librsvg/trunk
[17:04] <kwwii> thorwil: he never talked to me about this directly
[17:04] <kwwii> I was talking to him because I was interested in teh gtk-css stuff
[17:05] <kwwii> hrm, it seems that robsta is offline :-(
[17:05] <kwwii> not sure if I want to locally install a new librsvg without knowing the consequences first
[17:05] <thorwil> kwwii: ic. he mentioned a patch allowing to use a single svg as source and i asked him about that ... leading to me making a button template
[17:05] <thorwil> will have to be build widget by widget
[17:06] <kwwii> right, it seems like a pretty good start so far
[17:06] <kwwii> it is very similar to the hildon stuff nokia did/does
[17:06] <thorwil> kwwii: Rob and I will be happy for any support you can offer :)
[17:10] <thorwil> i might find out what the consequences of locally installing librsvg trunk are :)
[17:10] <thorwil> first i need gtk-doc :(
[17:13] <thorwil> that means gtk-doc-tools. libcroco3-dev, libgsf-1-dev
[17:24] <kwwii> lol
[17:24] <thorwil> No package 'libccss-cairo-1' found. gnarg
[17:25] <kwwii> I wonder which versions are in jaunty already
[17:25] <thorwil> libccss-cairo-1 must be a typo of some kind, google doesn't know it
[17:26] <kwwii> or it is built by another package...or the 1 has been added somehow, or, or or
[17:26] <thorwil> kwwii: well, for inclusion in jaunty, things should be brought on their way early
[17:26] <kwwii> thorwil: right, I think getting in the pieces we need to work on this stuff now would be a good idea
[17:29] <thorwil> now, a requirement for a package that doesn't exist at all (no google hits) is a first for me :}
[17:29] <kwwii> yeah, that sounds pretty b0rked
[17:29] <kwwii> ahhh, maybe it is the libcss in the gtk-css engine code
[17:30] <kwwii> didn't they have something like that in there?
[17:30] <kwwii> Libccss is required by the gtk-css-engine. It's available from http://anongit.freedesktop.org/git/ccss.git/ .
[17:30] <kwwii> from the readme
[17:31] <thorwil> oh, right
[17:32] <thorwil> i should heed that files name, sometimes :)
[17:38] <thorwil> what the hell is the git equiv of "svn co"?
[17:40] <thorwil> ah, git clone
[17:57] <thorwil> everything build and installed
[17:57] <kwwii> wow, that seems to have went well :-)
[17:58] <thorwil> still need to find out how to get that into Appearance
[17:59] <_MMA_> A HOWTO on the ML would be cool if its strait-forward.
[18:00] <kwwii> yeah, I was just thinking that we should be documenting this process
[18:00] <kwwii> on the wiki would perhaps be better
[18:00] <kwwii> then we could update it as things proceed without confusion
[18:00] <kwwii> oh well, /me cooks dinner (tortelloni alla panna and a green salad)
[18:01] <thorwil> _MMA_, kwwii: where on the wiki?
[18:01] <_MMA_> Hmm... Good question.
[18:02] <_MMA_> Ill be back. Gotta finish up cleaning.
[18:03] <thorwil> i fail at making the theme selectable, anyway :)
[18:03]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:52] <kwwii> thorwil: I think you need to do something else to actually use the theme
[18:52] <kwwii> not sure what though
[18:52] <thorwil> kwwii: robsta will know
[18:53] <kwwii> thorwil: right
[18:55] <kwwii> lol, the first and last team report was nov 2007
[19:05] <_MMA_> :P
[19:06] <kwwii> ok, I have now added a page under Documentation for the gtk css engine
[19:07] <thorwil> kwwii: cool. i made notes. will complete as soon as i know the last step :)
[19:07] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GtkCssEngine
[19:08] <kwwii> thorwil: feel free to change that page however you see fit, I just wanted to get up the basics
[19:42] <thorwil> finally something happens :)
[20:07] <kwwii> thorwil: did you get it working?
[20:08] <thorwil> kwwii: no. didn't even try. i added my notes to the wiki page and emailed rob :)
[20:08] <thorwil> bbl
[20:09] <kwwii> cool
[20:09] <kwwii> if you want to put the sources in /usr/src/ as you suggest you need a sudo before the svn checkout, or?
[20:10] <kwwii> and isn't there some ./configure stuff missing? at each build ?
[20:27] <_MMA_> kwwii: Only on 1st pull and build.
[20:28] <_MMA_> Pullin' and building after that don't need it.
[20:28] <_MMA_> In my experience anyway.
[20:42] <robsta> looks like i missed thorwil :/
[20:56] <thorwil> robsta: almost
[20:56] <robsta> thorwil: got mail
[20:58] <robsta> thorwil: if you have any questions, i'll check back in 15min or so
[20:58] <thorwil> robsta: i'm about to leave, actually. hgope to see you tomorrow :)
[20:59] <robsta> thorwil: ok, thanks for getting this started
[20:59] <robsta> or biting, actually :)
[21:00] <thorwil> robsta: np. things seem to fall into place currently :)
[21:00] <robsta> thorwil: will be back no monday, no computing on weekends
[21:01] <thorwil> kwwii: no, these ./autogen.sh do take care of configure, too. i know it isn't always the case
[21:01] <thorwil> robsta: oh, ok
[21:01] <robsta> thorwil: more like we are beating them into place
[21:02] <thorwil> kwwii: could be that i changed permissions on my /usr/src. can you check what is default for me?
[21:03] <thorwil> gotta go, good night! :)
[21:16] <robsta> hi _MMA_
[21:17] <_MMA_> yo