[07:32] <kwwii> moin moin
[12:52] <robsta> he _MMA_
[12:53] <_MMA_> yo
[12:53]  * _MMA_ will bbiab. (takin' the kids to school)
[13:57] <thorwil> hi!
[13:58] <robsta> hi thorwil
[14:00] <thorwil> robsta: do you really think we should encourage early testers to install the engine to /usr? at the same time librsvg in /usr/local shouldn't pose a problem, right?
[14:02] <robsta> thorwil: it won't work anywhere else
[14:02] <kwwii> thorwil: I was thinking about this stuff and decided that I will try to put all this in a PPA so that people can just install it
[14:02] <robsta> thorwil: it's only for people who know what they are doing ATM
[14:03] <thorwil> kwwii: that's very cool, but too early ;)
[14:03] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I was thinking that myself
[14:04] <robsta> kwwii: maybe after the next release, things are changing on a daily basis
[14:04] <kwwii> robsta: cool, I'll wait a bit then
[14:04] <robsta> kwwii: i'm very happy to work with thorwil ATM, he's keeping me busy already :)
[14:05] <thorwil> robsta: i have a bit of icon work on my list, but i'm eager to continue on widgets. what do you think how we should continue?
[14:05] <kwwii> robsta: excellent :-)
[14:05] <robsta> thorwil: what do you mean? which kind of widgets?
[14:06] <thorwil> robsta: any :)   as in controls, not desktop widgets if you mean that
[14:07] <thorwil> robsta: i currently lean towards having all, or at least most, in one SVG
[14:07] <robsta> thorwil: i don't know what you mean. My questions is whether you are asking me with which kinds of widgets to pursue next, or if you mean anything else.
[14:07] <thorwil> robsta: both :)
[14:08] <thorwil> robsta: which one to attack next and if you have any other thoughts on the process to use
[14:08] <robsta> thorwil: the whole theme in one svg is fine with me. Regarding widgets, hmm, maybe GtkEntry?
[14:09] <robsta> i need to implement focus-indicators next anyway
[14:10] <robsta> (`aura'-style focus indicators from the original widget's plate, that is)
[14:10] <thorwil> hope there's a way to take care of that without needing any switching around in the template
[14:10] <robsta> thorwil: got some ideas
[14:10] <thorwil> cool
[14:10] <thorwil> coffee break, bbl :)
[14:50] <_MMA_> I just don't like the neg space above/below the map here. http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/5498/ibmhfe2.png I need 1 more element to make it more, "metal". :P
[14:52] <thorwil> _MMA_: it's a bit strange to see a planar world map in a circle. kinda makes you expect a globe.
[14:53] <_MMA_> ie: The lat/long lines?
[14:53] <thorwil> _MMA_: if you want to fill the void, how about a skull with a winged snake coming out of one eye socket, the snake puking out half-eaten demon fetuses?
[14:54] <_MMA_> hahaha. I'm *trying* to keep it somewhat "un-cheesy". :) Kinda professional. :)
[14:55] <thorwil> globe vs world map: http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/02/65/15/400_F_2651500_i3VOmWuekU1y5gvfu1G8jqjTq6hnXC.jpg  http://www.webresourcesdepot.com/wp-content/uploads/image/free-vector-world-map.gif
[14:56]  * _MMA_ clicks.
[14:57] <thorwil> _MMA_: you could make the map larger by letting it break the black ring
[14:58] <thorwil> that means leaving gaps in the ring
[14:58] <_MMA_> hmm...
[14:58]  * _MMA_ tinkers.
[15:04] <_MMA_> Does a clipping path only keep the areas where 2 objects overlap or can it remove them also?
[15:05] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'm not quite sure what you mean, but you can aways remove the clipping and the clipped path is as before
[15:06] <thorwil> in the case of blur, the part outside of the clipping path can affect the inside
[15:07] <_MMA_> Well say I have 2 overlapping circles. If I clip them what's left is a "crescent" kinda positive shape. I want to keep the circles and have the part where they overlap removed.
[15:08] <_MMA_> Now I could do an "Exclusion" but there are too many shapes here to do that. Its not all 1 path.
[15:09] <thorwil> _MMA_: you can clip entire groups. and you can use a path with a "hole" for clipping
[15:11] <thorwil> _MMA_: use boolean ops to make a path in the shape of what you want to clip out. make another path that encases the whole thing. substract the "out" path from the big one. use result as clip path
[15:12] <_MMA_> I get it now. Though I don't like the results/direction. I gotta think of something else.
[15:13]  * _MMA_ Google's other union logos some more.
[15:15] <_MMA_> Ahh hell. I'll give it more thought while I put the 2nd coat of paint on this bathroom. bbl.
[15:23] <kwwii> _MMA_: you want a mask, not clipping
[16:46] <thorwil> troy actually _did_ something ;)  http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/11/gift-from-me-to-you.html
[16:54] <_MMA_>  *gasp*
[16:55] <_MMA_> He also updated the look of his blog.
[17:24] <robsta> thorwil: i see on the "Piece by Piece" wiki page you have an extra item for toggle-buttons
[17:25] <thorwil> robsta: yes. i think toggle buttons should look a bit different
[17:25] <robsta> isn't that the "Depressed" state of a regular button  already?
[17:25] <robsta> ok, well, why not
[17:29] <darkmatter> thorwil: agreed. considering a toggled button isn't depressed, it's 'active'
[17:30] <robsta> thorwil: being kind of a scrollbar fetishist i must say these look awesome: http://cypohirogen.deviantart.com/art/Mail-Scrollbar-for-Leopard-79257200
[17:30] <robsta> (fetishism for subtle scrollbars)
[17:30] <thorwil> robsta: oh! :)
[17:32] <darkmatter> there was a nice proof of concept someone did for gnome that was basically a rewrite of the scrollbar widget. great idea, and ver subtle as well, only problem it had (graphically) was it was dimpled to look like treads
[17:32] <darkmatter> *looks for link*
[17:32] <thorwil> robsta: sadly we can't just do away with the arrow buttons of gtk scrollbars. as much as i would like to (http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/popup-scrollbar-concept-demo/)
[17:33] <darkmatter> oh... nm.. it was you:P
[17:33] <thorwil> heh
[17:33] <robsta> thorwil: you mean for usability reasons?
[17:34] <robsta> hmm, that prototype seems a bit overkill to me
[17:34] <thorwil> robsta: more or less. but actually mainly because that's how the gtk widget is made
[17:35] <robsta> thorwil: huh?
[17:35] <robsta> GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper, GtkScrollbar::has-forward-stepper
[17:37]  * darkmatter thinks steppers are useless
[17:38]  * Cimi agrees too
[17:38] <Cimi> never used them
[17:38] <Cimi> NEVER
[17:39] <thorwil> that doesn't mean nobody uses them
[17:39] <darkmatter> I actually study the way people use the ui :P and quite frankly, 99.999% of the people I've observed don't use them either
[17:39] <thorwil> propose _any_ chance there and you have people up in arms
[17:39]  * robsta has seen lots non-professional computer users use the steppers
[17:40] <thorwil> i got lots of complaints for my concept lacks a way to page like you can with a normal scrollbar by clicking the trough.
[17:42] <robsta> thorwil: i think it's overkill, because many savy users just use the mouse to scroll, unsavy ones the stepper
[17:42] <thorwil> robsta: the point would be that nobody should use this very hard to hit little buttons
[17:42] <_MMA_> robsta: And having no scrollwheel makes you "unsavy"? :)
[17:43] <darkmatter> it's an archaic concept, imho. and the reason most people use them is psychology... it eventuall hardcodes itself into them as a habit. you see the little arrow and think 'go'.
[17:43] <darkmatter> and the slider gives more precise control :)
[17:43] <thorwil> robsta: so a theme engine has the option to just leave the steppers out?
[17:43] <robsta> thorwil: it's built into gtk
[17:43] <thorwil> the option i really would like to have is to have both buttons on one side
[17:43] <darkmatter> it's not the engin thorwil, its gtk itself
[17:44] <thorwil> that what i meant with "but actually mainly because that's how the gtk widget is made"
[17:44] <darkmatter> and you can easily do the 'mac/next' thing with one side double steppers
[17:45] <thorwil> darkmatter: where do i find that option?
[17:45] <darkmatter> gtk had secondary steppers as an option, its just most themes dont enable them
[17:45] <_MMA_> Not that I personally care one way or another, but I find them useful when I need to jump a small step consistently. Usually when comparing documents side-by-side.
[17:46] <darkmatter> thorwil: like this
[17:46] <darkmatter> GtkScrollbar::has-forward-stepper = 1
[17:46] <darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper = 1
[17:46] <darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-forward-stepper = 1
[17:46] <darkmatter>   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-backward-stepper = 1
[17:46] <robsta> _MMA_: that was not the point i was trying to make; would be indeed interesting to know what share of users have a synaptics touch-apad/scrollwheel and how many are actually using it.
[17:46] <darkmatter> 1 is true obviously, to disable just change the value to 0
[17:47] <thorwil> darkmatter: doesn't look like it allows to have 2 on one side and none on the other
[17:48] <darkmatter> it does, if you disable say, forward and secondary backward for example, one side will have no steppers
[17:48] <_MMA_> robsta: Sure. Novel might have data like that as alot of usability studies come from them.
[17:48] <thorwil> darkmatter: oh, ic
[17:48]  * _MMA_ tries to avoid a "usability depends on audience" chat. :P
[17:51] <darkmatter> thorwil: the secondary steppers sit opposit from the normal side of the trough. for example, the configuration shown there (all 4 enabled) looks like the ones here http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/530053184/sizes/o/in/set-72157594488098254/
[17:52] <darkmatter> if I disable the backward and seconary forward, the two top steppers go bye bye
[17:53] <darkmatter> I really ned to work on that theme.. it looks a LOT different now, but I haven't touched it in 4 months :P
[17:53] <_MMA_> darkmatter: Is it as simple as adding those lines to a gtkrc?
[17:55] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yup. add them before the list of colors/engine, just paste it to the section with the theme 'rules', stuff like GtkStatusbar::shadow_type = GTK_SHADOW_NONE
[17:55] <darkmatter>   GtkSpinButton::shadow_type = GTK_SHADOW_NONE, etc
[17:56] <robsta> darkmatter: some nice stuff on your flickr, kudos
[17:56] <darkmatter> just stick the options in there
[17:56] <darkmatter> robsta: thanks
[17:57] <thorwil> robsta: i'm not entirely opposed to shipping a theme with no steppers. but they should be in the template
[17:58] <robsta> thorwil: talking about personal preference here, not trying to talk you into anything
[17:58]  * robsta never uses stock themes
[17:59]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:00] <_MMA_> darkmatter: Oh sweet. I know I've seen this before. Is there a way to just put them at the bottom? back/forward on bottom only?
[18:01] <darkmatter> yup..
[18:01] <_MMA_> Within these options? Im tinkering now.
[18:01] <darkmatter> (11:46:30 AM) darkmatter:   GtkScrollbar::has-backward-stepper = 0
[18:01] <darkmatter> (11:46:30 AM) darkmatter:   GtkScrollbar::has-secondary-forward-stepper = 0
[18:02] <darkmatter> in my example.. you can technically just delete the secondary forward option
[18:03] <_MMA_> Ok. I thought I had it. I just commented out instead of 1->0.
[18:03] <darkmatter> but for the standard steppers, just flag the value for the backward to 0, and add in the option for a secondary backward
[18:04] <_MMA_> Hell, I might just turn off altogether.
[18:04] <darkmatter> standard' theme' I mean, most (not all though) have the option for the 'normal' steppers already in the template
[18:04]  * _MMA_ lives with it for a bit before he decides.
[18:07] <darkmatter> and speaking of templates, I've been meaning to make a proper one, with all standard gtk options, properly formatted and commented (there really is a lack of one, and using most themes as a template sucks, because I've never seen a single gtkrc that didn't need to be shredded :P)
[18:07] <_MMA_> I wish someone wanted to do more work on the Studio theme. I'll let all kinds of crazy crap in. :P
[18:10] <darkmatter> _MMA_: lol.. if I ever get back to the idea you gave me when you mentioed the mixer sliders :P I did a bunch of scetches for a theme (slightly influenced by photopro on mac for a general palette), that took subtle cues from actually studio equippment, even a slight wooden 'trin' on the edges of the metacity.. haven't actually made any graphics for it yet.. but still.. ;P
[18:10] <darkmatter> why was that a c instead of a k? *shrugs*
[18:13] <_MMA_> Sure. I'm really open to ideas. Especially Jaunty. I wanna try to get Rico to do a wallpaper.
[18:16] <darkmatter> basically I was leaning towards a less black/more really deep charcoal for the primary shade.. it gives a more mat appearance. not that I have a problem with black, it's just it's really hard to get a black theme to not be overly luminous
[18:16] <darkmatter> as pure black tends to glow almost as much as white ;P
[18:17] <_MMA_> For Studio, I think we use it pretty sparingly. Just the metacity and panel. The overall color is more a charcoal.
[18:19] <darkmatter> http://www.mac-dvd.com/image/mac-theme/mac-theme-photopro-1.5.jpg <-- the shade on the photopro windows is almost ideal I think
[18:21] <_MMA_> *REALLY* close to what we do now. That pick just re-orders some things. Like our menus, we go lighter where they go darker. In any case, I'd be happy to work with you on something. Just don't commit if you can't follow through. :)
[18:23] <darkmatter> lol... I'm not committing yet (very busy in RL), but I can thow some ideas around for now.. If I have time than I'll commit to something :)
[18:25] <_MMA_> Sure. I know how it goes.
[19:04] <thorwil> zoom and blur in inkscape, grrrrr
[19:06] <kwwii> thorwil: it gives you time to think more about what you want to do :-)
[19:11] <robsta> see you
[19:12] <thorwil> byez
[20:49] <dilomo> hi guys
[20:49] <dilomo> how are you?
[20:58] <dilomo> What do you think of this image (version of New Wave)?
[20:58] <dilomo> http://img192.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=64395_Screenshot_122_452lo.jpg
[21:00] <thorwil> dilomo: hi! fine, just trying to wrap up some work for tonight :)
[21:01] <dilomo> whhat do you think of the new top?
[21:01] <dilomo> of the windows on the screenshots?
[21:02] <thorwil> dilomo: i have my problems with the hard cut between menubar and toolbar, generally
[21:03] <dilomo> what do you offer as an alternative?
[21:04] <thorwil> dilomo: either make toolbars to be like title and menus, or just have a distinct titlebar
[21:05] <dilomo> that woul look too much like dust don't you think?
[21:05] <dilomo> would*
[21:05] <thorwil> *shrug*
[21:06] <dilomo> :)
[21:06] <dilomo> nevermind
[21:06] <dilomo> what are you doing
[21:06] <dilomo> drawing tonight?
[21:07] <thorwil> inkscaping :)
[21:08] <thorwil> dilomo: this was far too literal and not clickable enough: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/ingen-icon/
[21:08] <dilomo> what was that
[21:08] <thorwil> so working on a more traditional take
[21:08] <dilomo> site with the FOSS Inkscape manual
[21:08] <thorwil> huh?
[21:09] <dilomo> you make music?
[21:09] <thorwil> yes
[21:09] <dilomo> can you send me smth if its free
[21:09] <thorwil> allthough lately graphics always got priority
[21:09] <dilomo> ofcource
[21:10] <thorwil> dilomo: just follow the My Music link
[21:10] <dilomo> stupid me
[21:10] <dilomo> :)
[21:15] <thorwil> gotta run, cya!
[21:15] <dilomo> it's good
[21:15] <dilomo> "we don't want you" ;)
[21:15] <dilomo> buy
[21:15] <dilomo> bye*