| === BHSPitMonkey_ is now known as BHSPitMonkey | ||
| thorwil | hi! | 16:45 |
|---|---|---|
| dilomo | hi | 16:53 |
| dilomo | what's up thorwil | 16:53 |
| thorwil | dilomo: weekend :D | 16:53 |
| dilomo | party time! | 16:54 |
| dilomo | btw how do you find the min/max/close buttons as style: | 16:55 |
| dilomo | http://img187.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=15954_Screenshot_122_1lo.jpg | 16:55 |
| lucazade | hi all | 16:56 |
| dilomo | I'm wondering whether to change them or not | 16:57 |
| dilomo | lucazade: hi | 16:57 |
| thorwil | them? | 16:57 |
| dilomo | the buttons :) | 16:57 |
| dilomo | my English is not perfect | 16:57 |
| thorwil | dilomo: the top of the active tab looks like there is a left-over of those colored marks. it's too broad or dark | 16:58 |
| dilomo | colored marks? | 16:58 |
| dilomo | what do you mean the 1px line? | 16:59 |
| thorwil | dilomo: with colored marks i mean the strips above the active tab like seen in some clearlooks versions | 16:59 |
| dilomo | aha so by too broad you mean ther is too much space? | 17:00 |
| thorwil | dilomo: actually, the active tab page doesn't give any clear sign of being sunken in or raised | 17:00 |
| dilomo | I know there is some kind of confusion in the tabs | 17:01 |
| dilomo | cimi told me that ;) | 17:01 |
| thorwil | dilomo: look at the title of the active notebook tab. the border above it is broader then the border on the side. it looks strange | 17:01 |
| thorwil | dilomo: so do you want the active page to be sunken in or raised? | 17:02 |
| dilomo | I want it sunken | 17:03 |
| Cimi | I prefer raised tabs | 17:03 |
| dilomo | but I can't make it | 17:03 |
| dilomo | as the overlap will go away if I change some properties | 17:03 |
| dilomo | such as GtkNotebook::tab-overlap | 17:04 |
| thorwil | dilomo: you will need a clear shadow on the borders towards the light direction and highlights on the opposite. pretty much the reverse of what happens for buttons | 17:04 |
| dilomo | thorwil: you are righ some tweaking is needed for the tabs | 17:06 |
| dilomo | thorwil: but back to the question: Do you like the min/max/close buttons? | 17:07 |
| dilomo | thorwil: and if not what you think should be done | 17:07 |
| thorwil | dilomo: i do not. they are too busy and the differing height muddies the target areas | 17:08 |
| dilomo | but don't you think that they will become too boring if they are the same height? | 17:08 |
| thorwil | dilomo: i don't look at window buttons to get excited and guess few people do ;) | 17:09 |
| dilomo | :D | 17:09 |
| thorwil | dilomo: the focused window ... the single X button there looks fine. allthough sunken look is strange for a click target | 17:10 |
| thorwil | dilomo: the single button looks rounded, bu the right side of the trio doesn't | 17:11 |
| thorwil | it looks hexagonal | 17:11 |
| dilomo | that is a problem indeed because I make a gradient in inkscape form black to white | 17:11 |
| dilomo | and there is one place where the values of thr grad equeals the gray bg | 17:12 |
| dilomo | and that roundness is lost | 17:12 |
| dilomo | Don't know how to fix this | 17:12 |
| thorwil | dilomo: b/w overlayed gradients rarely look as good as specifically coloured gradients | 17:13 |
| dilomo | coloured? | 17:13 |
| thorwil | dilomo: that is because the balance of colors varies from lit to dark areas in the real world in all common lighting situations | 17:14 |
| thorwil | dilomo: i'm talking about a generic gradient that is meant to work on different backgrounds vs one that is made to fit for only one specific background | 17:15 |
| dilomo | so you suggest me to make the beveal effect using some other colors than b/w | 17:15 |
| thorwil | yes | 17:15 |
| dilomo | good idea :) | 17:15 |
| thorwil | dilomo: study shadows in the real world. they often appear blueish | 17:15 |
| dilomo | yes (because the sky is blue) but in all warm theme this is not good approach | 17:16 |
| thorwil | dilomo: have a look at http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm | 17:18 |
| thorwil | Light stuff | 17:18 |
| dilomo | that's cooooooool! thanks | 17:19 |
| thorwil | np :) | 17:19 |
| lucazade | very nice stuff | 17:19 |
| lucazade | bokkmarked | 17:19 |
| thorwil | dilomo: there's a risk to end up with a grey mess when working with shadow color. but the other extreme is a sterile and synthetic look | 17:20 |
| dilomo | an mine is on the sterile side ? | 17:21 |
| thorwil | yep | 17:21 |
| thorwil | dilomo: your light direction is straight from above, right? | 17:22 |
| dilomo | yes | 17:22 |
| * thorwil -> dinner | 17:26 | |
| * dilomo too | 17:27 | |
| Cimi | it's 6:30 PM | 17:32 |
| Cimi | :-| | 17:32 |
| Cimi | dinner? :\ | 17:32 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: hi! i'm right now looking at the svg for Sebastian's playing cards. he managed _almost_ perfect symmetry for the heart shape | 18:17 |
| thorwil | but is wasteful with nodes :) | 18:22 |
| _MMA_ | :) | 18:22 |
| _MMA_ | Make any revisions you like. I'll up them. | 18:23 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: nah, i will just give him example with how few nodes it can be done. not for performance considerations, but to make his live easier | 18:24 |
| dilomo | Cimi: I din't ave lunch today so it's dinner for me ;) | 18:25 |
| _MMA_ | Sure. It's always great to streamline. :) | 18:25 |
| _MMA_ | thorwil: A heart could be done with 2 nodes couldn't it? | 18:26 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: not quite. makes the round parts ... not round | 18:26 |
| thorwil | 4 nodes | 18:27 |
| dilomo | Cimi: I'm obviously still hungry because I eat letters too :) | 18:27 |
| thorwil | he has 18 | 18:27 |
| dilomo | thorwil: but the icon is good | 18:28 |
| thorwil | dilomo: yes. i'm always feeling a bit uneasy criticizing him, as he's better at drawing icons by now :) | 18:28 |
| dilomo | thorwil: :) | 18:29 |
| dilomo | but the brush is not good | 18:29 |
| _MMA_ | thorwil: Naa... I think he welcomes it. | 18:29 |
| dilomo | it should look wooden | 18:29 |
| dilomo | not plastic | 18:29 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: i know. he also has a great attitude. only wish he would join us here | 18:30 |
| _MMA_ | yeah | 18:30 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: I have brushes with plastic handles. :) | 18:30 |
| dilomo | yes but they are not classic | 18:30 |
| dilomo | I have too bit the wooden ones are gourgeous | 18:31 |
| _MMA_ | So it depends on what you're going for. :) *You* want a more classic look. He might not. :) | 18:31 |
| dilomo | _MMA_: probably | 18:32 |
| dilomo | I think that the biggest icons should have more details | 18:32 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: Feel free to raise the question though. Just dont be like Cimi and call it "ugly" or something. :P | 18:33 |
| Cimi | gh | 18:33 |
| _MMA_ | hehe | 18:33 |
| dilomo | Cimi: _MMA_ is right you are a bit hard on newcomers | 18:34 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: I think it's a bit of a language barrier sometimes. Needs nicer words to express dislike. :) | 18:35 |
| Cimi | though sometimes I need something harder than ugly, maybe horrible? :D | 18:35 |
| dilomo | :D | 18:36 |
| _MMA_ | ;) | 18:36 |
| Cimi | something like "ooh after seeing that theme, my eyes refuse to stay open" :D | 18:36 |
| _MMA_ | "My eyes just vomited all over the screen." | 18:37 |
| Cimi | omg | 18:38 |
| Cimi | that sounds great ;) | 18:38 |
| _MMA_ | :P | 18:38 |
| thorwil | i had to clean my eyes with alcohol after looking at that! | 18:38 |
| Cimi | ahahah | 18:39 |
| Cimi | give me a whiskey please :P | 18:39 |
| dilomo | your speech gentlemen is embarrassing | 18:39 |
| dilomo | ;) | 18:40 |
| thorwil | what is a speech-gentleman? ;) | 18:40 |
| dilomo | :) | 18:41 |
| Cimi | thorwil, if you're planning about a default-theme or something similar work on mockups rather than looking on *how to implement with the css engine*. that engine will be just like the pixbuf engine but with few features more (just like experience engine): it is really important for newcomers but not for fast and default themes. | 18:44 |
| thorwil | Cimi: i intend to combine both | 18:45 |
| Cimi | what do you mean? | 18:45 |
| thorwil | Cimi: most of the How for the css-engine is worked out already and a template for it will also be a mockup of all important widgets | 18:46 |
| Cimi | what I meant is that let's keep on helping people understand how that experimental engine works, because it will be interesting for a lot of new guys | 18:47 |
| Cimi | but for your ideas of a default theme let's still rely on cairo for drawing, and with custom code inside the engine | 18:47 |
| Cimi | you just need to find out a good cairo coder, then you can draw a lot of images and effects through the lib | 18:49 |
| lucazade | guys may i ask you how much is ugly the theme i'm making? :) http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4453/uglyvn7.png | 18:49 |
| lucazade | i know is not an original effect | 18:50 |
| lucazade | just wondering | 18:50 |
| Cimi | lucazade, more lightborder_ratio on the tabs | 18:50 |
| lucazade | yep | 18:51 |
| lucazade | not satisfied of tabs | 18:51 |
| dilomo | It remind me of a theme ... | 18:51 |
| lucazade | a lot of | 18:51 |
| lucazade | :) | 18:51 |
| thorwil | Cimi: regarding finding a good developer, i'm quite happy to work with robsta so far ;p it's not exactly easy to find someone to implement your own ideas | 18:52 |
| Cimi | thorwil, I mean for the cairo drawings | 18:52 |
| Cimi | anyway robsta is a great guy | 18:52 |
| dilomo | lucazade: but the grey color is too dull, don't you think? | 18:52 |
| lucazade | dull ... means dark? | 18:52 |
| dilomo | no dull like fog | 18:53 |
| lucazade | ok | 18:53 |
| lucazade | mmm maybe :-/ | 18:53 |
| thorwil | Cimi: i fully expect that the css-engine will be only useful for prototyping for quite a while. but that's exactly what i need | 18:53 |
| Cimi | thorwil, the only things that are actually difficult to implement with cairo are shadows bigger than 2-3 pixels | 18:54 |
| Cimi | I've written an algorithm, it will be in the next gnome-do (0.7.0) but it's not exactly as using a gaussian blur | 18:54 |
| Cimi | and it will be quite complicated for every button | 18:55 |
| Cimi | a lot of code and drawing operations :( | 18:55 |
| * Cimi wants convolution filters in cairo | 18:55 | |
| * dilomo wants gradient persets in Inkscape | 18:56 | |
| thorwil | too bad i use blur in the button template already | 18:56 |
| * _MMA_ wants a pony!! Yay! | 18:56 | |
| lucazade | lol | 18:57 |
| Cimi | thorwil, remove the blur :( | 18:57 |
| Cimi | blur is basically a convolution with a gaussian kernel | 18:57 |
| Cimi | it dramatically depends on the performance of your system | 18:58 |
| Cimi | because it's a long math operation | 18:58 |
| thorwil | Cimi: what i'm doing with it could be approximated with 9 areas and gradients, i guess | 18:58 |
| thorwil | Cimi: radial gradients in the corners, linear one on the edges. all running out to zero alpha | 18:59 |
| * _MMA_ hopes this isn't a "We need to keep in mind systems older than 5 years." opinion from Cimi. | 18:59 | |
| Cimi | thorwil, I've used log for similar things | 18:59 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, it's not 5 years old | 18:59 |
| thorwil | Cimi: log? | 18:59 |
| Cimi | it is 0 months old | 18:59 |
| Cimi | thorwil, logarithm | 18:59 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, you need to do an integral between your original function/image with and a gaussian exp | 19:01 |
| _MMA_ | Cimi: Sorry. That was probably too much English for you. I mean, we need to be able to code for the future. Not the past. And what is "too old" is up for debate. | 19:01 |
| Cimi | it's absolutely a long calculation | 19:01 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: it's quite obvious in inkscape that blur is damn expensive | 19:01 |
| Cimi | that's why there's no operating system that does this in software rendering | 19:01 |
| Cimi | vista uses blur | 19:02 |
| Cimi | but not with the software rendering | 19:02 |
| _MMA_ | thorwil: You usin' SVN? Its 50% faster now. Multithreaded. :P | 19:02 |
| Cimi | it used the shaders inside the GPU | 19:02 |
| Cimi | *uses | 19:02 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, it's not about programming for the future | 19:03 |
| thorwil | _MMA_: that will surely help me much on this single core :) | 19:03 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, convolutions MUST NOT be coded to work with software rendering | 19:03 |
| _MMA_ | thorwil: doh! :) | 19:03 |
| dilomo | Cimi is right | 19:03 |
| dilomo | you have probably read about DX10on9 | 19:03 |
| Cimi | no | 19:04 |
| dilomo | well for windows 7 they prepeare | 19:04 |
| dilomo | a software layer that will | 19:04 |
| dilomo | simulate SX10 on SX9 videocards | 19:04 |
| dilomo | or even on machines with no GPU | 19:05 |
| _MMA_ | Cimi: Sure. Like I said, I *hoped* you weren't talking about holding code back because of the past. ;) | 19:05 |
| dilomo | DX* | 19:05 |
| Cimi | dilomo, blur operations can be done with ati radeon >= 95xx, geforce fx and intel x3100 | 19:05 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, oh ok, I misunderstood again | 19:05 |
| Cimi | sorry | 19:05 |
| dilomo | they tried to do the Crysis thing on 8 core i7 | 19:05 |
| _MMA_ | :) | 19:05 |
| dilomo | and guess the result ~7.9 fps | 19:06 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: And got 7fps. :P | 19:06 |
| dilomo | that's without GPU | 19:06 |
| dilomo | but with GF 8800GTX you get 80fps | 19:06 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: Is your screen > < this big? You keep typing you sentences in half. | 19:07 |
| Cimi | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution#Definition | 19:07 |
| dilomo | sorry ;) skype veteran | 19:07 |
| Cimi | that's a pretty long calculation for the CPU | 19:07 |
| thorwil | i'm surprised a CPU can actually read that!! 8-D | 19:08 |
| Cimi | -.- | 19:08 |
| dilomo | http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3109 | 19:10 |
| Cimi | dilomo, thanks interesting | 19:13 |
| dilomo | np | 19:13 |
| Cimi | the fastest algorithm I can imagine for drawing shadows is a for that prints a pixel each clock and moves to the next pixel uses the alpha value following an incremental logarithmic function | 19:14 |
| Cimi | for blur operations you could follow an algorithm similar to the fake blur beryl plugin: strech an image 0.5x then strech 2x to get the original size with a loss in precision | 19:15 |
| dilomo | yes but it looks like vista's blurr | 19:16 |
| Cimi | no | 19:16 |
| Cimi | neither of them could reach the same quality than using a convoltion filter | 19:16 |
| Cimi | *of using | 19:17 |
| dilomo | not exactly but the blurr of compiz is better | 19:17 |
| dilomo | to my eyes at least | 19:17 |
| Cimi | compiz is using convolution | 19:18 |
| Cimi | but there was for beryl a fake blur plugin | 19:19 |
| Cimi | for older video cards | 19:19 |
| dilomo | aha I see | 19:19 |
| Cimi | http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/compiz/tree/plugins/blur.c | 19:20 |
| dilomo | it looks like a complicated process | 19:22 |
| _MMA_ | I really don't know why GNOME doesn't officially adopt Compiz. KDE has their own stuff now. Seems like this would be a easy fit for GNOME. | 19:22 |
| Cimi | dilomo, read createlineargaussiankernel | 19:23 |
| Cimi | or similar | 19:23 |
| Cimi | dilomo, it looks like a convolution, through a sum | 19:23 |
| dilomo | _MMA_: probably it would happen in GNOME 3.0 | 19:23 |
| Cimi | remember that you can approximate integrak with a sum | 19:23 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, maybe we will see the clutter backend for metacity | 19:24 |
| _MMA_ | dilomo: I don't know. Their still developing their own compositor. | 19:24 |
| Cimi | there's a branch inside ohand's git that uses clutter as a compositing backend | 19:24 |
| _MMA_ | Cimi: Hmm.... Interesting. | 19:25 |
| Cimi | http://git.o-hand.com/?r=metacity-clutter | 19:25 |
| Cimi | slow on my nvidia | 19:25 |
| Cimi | but from what they tld me it is quite fast with intel | 19:25 |
| _MMA_ | Nice. | 19:26 |
| * _MMA_ will bbl. | 19:26 | |
| dilomo | Cimi: what is this clutter doing? | 19:27 |
| dilomo | is it like compiz? | 19:27 |
| Cimi | using clutter as a backend means having opengl | 19:27 |
| Cimi | with opengl you can easily manipulate textures | 19:27 |
| _MMA_ | Oh. That's a big question. Best to Google. | 19:27 |
| _MMA_ | :) | 19:27 |
| _MMA_ | AWN uses it. | 19:27 |
| Cimi | and if you get a texture from a window, you can do what you want with it | 19:28 |
| Cimi | just like compiz does | 19:28 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, awn is not using clutter | 19:28 |
| Cimi | netbook-launcher by njpatel uses clutter | 19:28 |
| _MMA_ | Cimi: Sure? I thought Neil told ne that. | 19:28 |
| Cimi | tweet (for twitter) uses clutter | 19:28 |
| Cimi | _MMA_, yes I'm sure | 19:29 |
| dilomo | sounds cool | 19:29 |
| Cimi | awn is using cairo | 19:29 |
| _MMA_ | Ahh.. Thats right. | 19:29 |
| _MMA_ | Ok. No I'm really gone. | 19:31 |
| _MMA_ | *Now | 19:31 |
| Cimi | http://folks.o-hand.com/ebassi/tweet-navigation.ogg | 19:31 |
| Cimi | that is using clutter | 19:32 |
| dilomo | looks great. Probably will make more sense with touchscreen | 19:33 |
| Cimi | it's quite fun to use | 19:34 |
| dilomo | that's sure :) | 19:36 |
| dilomo | I have to go bye | 20:07 |
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