[16:45] <thorwil> hi!
[16:53] <dilomo> hi
[16:53] <dilomo> what's up thorwil
[16:53] <thorwil> dilomo: weekend :D
[16:54] <dilomo> party time!
[16:55] <dilomo> btw how do you find the min/max/close buttons as style:
[16:55] <dilomo> http://img187.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=15954_Screenshot_122_1lo.jpg
[16:56] <lucazade> hi all
[16:57] <dilomo> I'm wondering whether to change them or not
[16:57] <dilomo> lucazade: hi
[16:57] <thorwil> them?
[16:57] <dilomo> the buttons :)
[16:57] <dilomo> my English is not perfect
[16:58] <thorwil> dilomo: the top of the active tab looks like there is a left-over of those colored marks. it's too broad or dark
[16:58] <dilomo> colored marks?
[16:59] <dilomo> what do you mean the 1px line?
[16:59] <thorwil> dilomo: with colored marks i mean the strips above the active tab like seen in some clearlooks versions
[17:00] <dilomo> aha so by too broad you mean ther is too much space?
[17:00] <thorwil> dilomo: actually, the active tab page doesn't give any clear sign of being sunken in or raised
[17:01] <dilomo> I know there is some kind of confusion in the tabs
[17:01] <dilomo> cimi told me that ;)
[17:01] <thorwil> dilomo: look at the title of the active notebook tab. the border above it is broader then the border on the side. it looks strange
[17:02] <thorwil> dilomo: so do you want the active page to be sunken in or raised?
[17:03] <dilomo> I want it sunken
[17:03] <Cimi> I prefer raised tabs
[17:03] <dilomo> but I can't make it
[17:03] <dilomo> as the overlap will go away if I change some properties
[17:04] <dilomo> such as GtkNotebook::tab-overlap
[17:04] <thorwil> dilomo: you will need a clear shadow on the borders towards the light direction and highlights on the opposite. pretty much the reverse of what happens for buttons
[17:06] <dilomo> thorwil: you are righ some tweaking is needed for the tabs
[17:07] <dilomo> thorwil: but back to the question: Do you like the min/max/close buttons?
[17:07] <dilomo> thorwil: and if not what you think should be done
[17:08] <thorwil> dilomo: i do not. they are too busy and the differing height muddies the target areas
[17:08] <dilomo> but don't you think that they will become too boring if they are the same height?
[17:09] <thorwil> dilomo: i don't look at window buttons to get excited and guess few people do ;)
[17:09] <dilomo> :D
[17:10] <thorwil> dilomo: the focused window ... the single X button there looks fine. allthough sunken look is strange for a click target
[17:11] <thorwil> dilomo: the single button looks rounded, bu the right side of the trio doesn't
[17:11] <thorwil> it looks hexagonal
[17:11] <dilomo> that is a problem indeed because I make a gradient in inkscape form black to white
[17:12] <dilomo> and there is one place where the values of thr grad equeals the gray bg
[17:12] <dilomo> and that roundness is lost
[17:12] <dilomo> Don't know how to fix this
[17:13] <thorwil> dilomo: b/w overlayed gradients rarely look as good as specifically coloured gradients
[17:13] <dilomo> coloured?
[17:14] <thorwil> dilomo: that is because the balance of colors varies from lit to dark areas in the real world in all common lighting situations
[17:15] <thorwil> dilomo: i'm talking about a generic gradient that is meant to work on different backgrounds vs one that is made to fit for only one specific background
[17:15] <dilomo> so you suggest me to make the beveal effect using some other colors than b/w
[17:15] <thorwil> yes
[17:15] <dilomo> good idea :)
[17:15] <thorwil> dilomo: study shadows in the real world. they often appear blueish
[17:16] <dilomo> yes (because the sky is blue) but in all warm theme this is not good approach
[17:18] <thorwil> dilomo: have a look at http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm
[17:18] <thorwil> Light stuff
[17:19] <dilomo> that's cooooooool! thanks
[17:19] <thorwil> np :)
[17:19] <lucazade> very nice stuff
[17:19] <lucazade> bokkmarked
[17:20] <thorwil> dilomo: there's a risk to end up with a grey mess when working with shadow color. but the other extreme is a sterile and synthetic look
[17:21] <dilomo> an mine is on the sterile side ?
[17:21] <thorwil> yep
[17:22] <thorwil> dilomo: your light direction is straight from above, right?
[17:22] <dilomo> yes
[17:26]  * thorwil -> dinner
[17:27]  * dilomo too
[17:32] <Cimi> it's 6:30 PM
[17:32] <Cimi> :-|
[17:32] <Cimi> dinner? :\
[18:17] <thorwil> _MMA_: hi! i'm right now looking at the svg for Sebastian's playing cards. he managed _almost_ perfect symmetry for the heart shape
[18:22] <thorwil> but is wasteful with nodes :)
[18:22] <_MMA_> :)
[18:23] <_MMA_> Make any revisions you like. I'll up them.
[18:24] <thorwil> _MMA_: nah, i will just give him example with how few nodes it can be done. not for performance considerations, but to make his live easier
[18:25] <dilomo> Cimi: I din't ave lunch today so it's dinner for me ;)
[18:25] <_MMA_> Sure. It's always great to streamline. :)
[18:26] <_MMA_> thorwil: A heart could be done with 2 nodes couldn't it?
[18:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: not quite. makes the round parts ... not round
[18:27] <thorwil> 4 nodes
[18:27] <dilomo> Cimi: I'm obviously still hungry because I eat letters too :)
[18:27] <thorwil> he has 18
[18:28] <dilomo> thorwil: but the icon is good
[18:28] <thorwil> dilomo: yes. i'm always feeling a bit uneasy criticizing him, as he's better at drawing icons by now :)
[18:29] <dilomo> thorwil: :)
[18:29] <dilomo> but the brush is not good
[18:29] <_MMA_> thorwil: Naa... I think he welcomes it.
[18:29] <dilomo> it should look wooden
[18:29] <dilomo> not plastic
[18:30] <thorwil> _MMA_: i know. he also has a great attitude. only wish he would join us here
[18:30] <_MMA_> yeah
[18:30] <_MMA_> dilomo: I have brushes with plastic handles. :)
[18:30] <dilomo> yes but they are not classic
[18:31] <dilomo> I have too bit the wooden ones are gourgeous
[18:31] <_MMA_> So it depends on what you're going for. :) *You* want a more classic look. He might not. :)
[18:32] <dilomo> _MMA_: probably
[18:32] <dilomo> I think that the biggest icons should have more details
[18:33] <_MMA_> dilomo: Feel free to raise the question though. Just dont be like Cimi and call it "ugly" or something. :P
[18:33] <Cimi> gh
[18:33] <_MMA_> hehe
[18:34] <dilomo> Cimi: _MMA_ is right you are a bit hard on newcomers
[18:35] <_MMA_> dilomo: I think it's a bit of a language barrier sometimes. Needs nicer words to express dislike. :)
[18:35] <Cimi> though sometimes I need something harder than ugly, maybe horrible? :D
[18:36] <dilomo> :D
[18:36] <_MMA_> ;)
[18:36] <Cimi> something like "ooh after seeing that theme, my eyes refuse to stay open" :D
[18:37] <_MMA_> "My eyes just vomited all over the screen."
[18:38] <Cimi> omg
[18:38] <Cimi> that sounds great ;)
[18:38] <_MMA_> :P
[18:38] <thorwil> i had to clean my eyes with alcohol after looking at that!
[18:39] <Cimi> ahahah
[18:39] <Cimi> give me a whiskey please :P
[18:39] <dilomo> your speech gentlemen is embarrassing
[18:40] <dilomo> ;)
[18:40] <thorwil> what is a speech-gentleman? ;)
[18:41] <dilomo> :)
[18:44] <Cimi> thorwil, if you're planning about a default-theme or something similar work on mockups rather than looking on *how to implement with the css engine*. that engine will be just like the pixbuf engine but with few features more (just like experience engine): it is really important for newcomers but not for fast and default themes.
[18:45] <thorwil> Cimi: i intend to combine both
[18:45] <Cimi> what do you mean?
[18:46] <thorwil> Cimi: most of the How for the css-engine is worked out already and a template for it will also be a mockup of all important widgets
[18:47] <Cimi> what I meant is that let's keep on helping people understand how that experimental engine works, because it will be interesting for a lot of new guys
[18:47] <Cimi> but for your ideas of a default theme let's still rely on cairo for drawing, and with custom code inside the engine
[18:49] <Cimi> you just need to find out a good cairo coder, then you can draw a lot of images and effects through the lib
[18:49] <lucazade> guys may i ask you how much is ugly the theme i'm making? :) http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4453/uglyvn7.png
[18:50] <lucazade> i know is not an original effect
[18:50] <lucazade> just wondering
[18:50] <Cimi> lucazade, more lightborder_ratio on the tabs
[18:51] <lucazade> yep
[18:51] <lucazade> not satisfied of tabs
[18:51] <dilomo> It remind me of a theme ...
[18:51] <lucazade> a lot of
[18:51] <lucazade> :)
[18:52] <thorwil> Cimi: regarding finding a good developer, i'm quite happy to work with robsta so far ;p  it's not exactly easy to find someone to implement your own ideas
[18:52] <Cimi> thorwil, I mean for the cairo drawings
[18:52] <Cimi> anyway robsta is a great guy
[18:52] <dilomo> lucazade: but the grey color is too dull, don't you think?
[18:52] <lucazade> dull ... means dark?
[18:53] <dilomo> no dull like fog
[18:53] <lucazade> ok
[18:53] <lucazade> mmm maybe :-/
[18:53] <thorwil> Cimi: i fully expect that the css-engine will be only useful for prototyping for quite a while. but that's exactly what i need
[18:54] <Cimi> thorwil, the only things that are actually difficult to implement with cairo are shadows bigger than 2-3 pixels
[18:54] <Cimi> I've written an algorithm, it will be in the next gnome-do (0.7.0) but it's not exactly as using a gaussian blur
[18:55] <Cimi> and it will be quite complicated for every button
[18:55] <Cimi> a lot of code and drawing operations :(
[18:55]  * Cimi wants convolution filters in cairo
[18:56]  * dilomo wants gradient persets in Inkscape
[18:56] <thorwil> too bad i use blur in the button template already
[18:56]  * _MMA_ wants a pony!! Yay!
[18:57] <lucazade> lol
[18:57] <Cimi> thorwil, remove the blur :(
[18:57] <Cimi> blur is basically a convolution with a gaussian kernel
[18:58] <Cimi> it dramatically depends on the performance of your system
[18:58] <Cimi> because it's a long math operation
[18:58] <thorwil> Cimi: what i'm doing with it could be approximated with 9 areas and gradients, i guess
[18:59] <thorwil> Cimi: radial gradients in the corners, linear one on the edges. all running out to zero alpha
[18:59]  * _MMA_ hopes this isn't a "We need to keep in mind systems older than 5 years." opinion from Cimi.
[18:59] <Cimi> thorwil, I've used log for similar things
[18:59] <Cimi> _MMA_, it's not 5 years old
[18:59] <thorwil> Cimi: log?
[18:59] <Cimi> it is 0 months old
[18:59] <Cimi> thorwil, logarithm
[19:01] <Cimi> _MMA_, you need to do an integral between your original function/image with and a gaussian exp
[19:01] <_MMA_> Cimi: Sorry. That was probably too much English for you. I mean, we need to be able to code for the future. Not the past. And what is "too old" is up for debate.
[19:01] <Cimi> it's absolutely a long calculation
[19:01] <thorwil> _MMA_: it's quite obvious in inkscape that blur is damn expensive
[19:01] <Cimi> that's why there's no operating system that does this in software rendering
[19:02] <Cimi> vista uses blur
[19:02] <Cimi> but not with the software rendering
[19:02] <_MMA_> thorwil: You usin' SVN? Its 50% faster now. Multithreaded. :P
[19:02] <Cimi> it used the shaders inside the GPU
[19:02] <Cimi> *uses
[19:03] <Cimi> _MMA_, it's not about programming for the future
[19:03] <thorwil> _MMA_: that will surely help me much on this single core :)
[19:03] <Cimi> _MMA_, convolutions MUST NOT be coded to work with software rendering
[19:03] <_MMA_> thorwil: doh! :)
[19:03] <dilomo> Cimi is right
[19:03] <dilomo> you have probably read about DX10on9
[19:04] <Cimi> no
[19:04] <dilomo> well for windows 7 they prepeare
[19:04] <dilomo> a software layer that will
[19:04] <dilomo> simulate SX10 on SX9 videocards
[19:05] <dilomo> or even on machines with no GPU
[19:05] <_MMA_> Cimi: Sure. Like I said, I *hoped* you weren't talking about holding code back because of the past. ;)
[19:05] <dilomo> DX*
[19:05] <Cimi> dilomo, blur operations can be done with ati radeon >= 95xx, geforce fx and intel x3100
[19:05] <Cimi> _MMA_, oh ok, I misunderstood again
[19:05] <Cimi> sorry
[19:05] <dilomo> they tried to do the Crysis thing on 8 core i7
[19:05] <_MMA_> :)
[19:06] <dilomo> and guess the result ~7.9 fps
[19:06] <_MMA_> dilomo: And got 7fps. :P
[19:06] <dilomo> that's without GPU
[19:06] <dilomo> but with GF 8800GTX you get 80fps
[19:07] <_MMA_> dilomo: Is your screen >                                               < this big? You keep typing you sentences in half.
[19:07] <Cimi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution#Definition
[19:07] <dilomo> sorry ;) skype veteran
[19:07] <Cimi> that's a pretty long calculation for the CPU
[19:08] <thorwil> i'm surprised a CPU can actually read that!! 8-D
[19:08] <Cimi> -.-
[19:10] <dilomo> http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3109
[19:13] <Cimi> dilomo, thanks interesting
[19:13] <dilomo> np
[19:14] <Cimi> the fastest algorithm I can imagine for drawing shadows is a for that prints a pixel each clock and moves to the next pixel uses the alpha value following an incremental logarithmic function
[19:15] <Cimi> for blur operations you could follow an algorithm similar to the fake blur beryl plugin: strech an image 0.5x then strech 2x to get the original size with a loss in precision
[19:16] <dilomo> yes but it looks like vista's blurr
[19:16] <Cimi> no
[19:16] <Cimi> neither of them could reach the same quality than using a convoltion filter
[19:17] <Cimi> *of using
[19:17] <dilomo> not exactly but the blurr of compiz is better
[19:17] <dilomo> to my eyes at least
[19:18] <Cimi> compiz is using convolution
[19:19] <Cimi> but there was for beryl a fake blur plugin
[19:19] <Cimi> for older video cards
[19:19] <dilomo> aha I see
[19:20] <Cimi> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/compiz/tree/plugins/blur.c
[19:22] <dilomo> it looks like a complicated process
[19:22] <_MMA_> I really don't know why GNOME doesn't officially adopt Compiz. KDE has their own stuff now. Seems like this would be a easy fit for GNOME.
[19:23] <Cimi> dilomo, read createlineargaussiankernel
[19:23] <Cimi> or similar
[19:23] <Cimi> dilomo, it looks like a convolution, through a sum
[19:23] <dilomo> _MMA_: probably it would happen in GNOME 3.0
[19:23] <Cimi> remember that you can approximate integrak with a sum
[19:24] <Cimi> _MMA_, maybe we will see the clutter backend for metacity
[19:24] <_MMA_> dilomo: I don't know. Their still developing their own compositor.
[19:24] <Cimi> there's a branch inside ohand's git that uses clutter as a compositing backend
[19:25] <_MMA_> Cimi: Hmm.... Interesting.
[19:25] <Cimi> http://git.o-hand.com/?r=metacity-clutter
[19:25] <Cimi> slow on my nvidia
[19:25] <Cimi> but from what they tld me it is quite fast with intel
[19:26] <_MMA_> Nice.
[19:26]  * _MMA_ will bbl.
[19:27] <dilomo> Cimi: what is this clutter doing?
[19:27] <dilomo> is it like compiz?
[19:27] <Cimi> using clutter as a backend means having opengl
[19:27] <Cimi> with opengl you can easily manipulate textures
[19:27] <_MMA_> Oh. That's a big question. Best to Google.
[19:27] <_MMA_> :)
[19:27] <_MMA_> AWN uses it.
[19:28] <Cimi> and if you get a texture from a window, you can do what you want with it
[19:28] <Cimi> just like compiz does
[19:28] <Cimi> _MMA_, awn is not using clutter
[19:28] <Cimi> netbook-launcher by njpatel uses clutter
[19:28] <_MMA_> Cimi: Sure? I thought Neil told ne that.
[19:28] <Cimi> tweet (for twitter) uses clutter
[19:29] <Cimi> _MMA_, yes I'm sure
[19:29] <dilomo> sounds cool
[19:29] <Cimi> awn is using cairo
[19:29] <_MMA_> Ahh.. Thats right.
[19:31] <_MMA_> Ok. No I'm really gone.
[19:31] <_MMA_> *Now
[19:31] <Cimi> http://folks.o-hand.com/ebassi/tweet-navigation.ogg
[19:32] <Cimi> that is using clutter
[19:33] <dilomo> looks great. Probably will make more sense with touchscreen
[19:34] <Cimi> it's quite fun to use
[19:36] <dilomo> that's sure :)
[20:07] <dilomo> I have to go bye