/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/12/09/#edubuntu.txt

LaserJocknubae: sorry, was busy, looking better for sure00:01
=== merriam__ is now known as merriam
pem725sshd refused connection after apt-get upgrade on server - all was working fine before.  I did the usual ltsp-update-*.  Any ideas?11:03
pem725sshd refused connection after apt-get upgrade on server - all was working fine before.  I did the usual ltsp-update-*.  Any ideas?11:07
generalsnuswe have some problems installing skolelinux here,  we are installing "ftp.skolelinux.org/cd-lenny-test-dvd/debian-edu-amd64-i386-DVD-1.iso"  and we are behind a proxy,  but wehen the install gets to "installing applications" it just ends..with no obvious error.. im guessing it tries to connect to the net.. but it has no proxy settings yet..  what can we do?12:02
sbalneavMorning all14:49
pem725anyone have a solution for udev swapping my eth0 and eth1 after updates?14:53
pem725I am using Ubuntu 8.04.1 with ltsp14:54
sbalneavpem725: Udev swapped them permanently?15:02
pem725apparently15:03
sbalneavNever seen that before.15:03
pem725I updated my system the other day but waited to reboot because I had clients that were still in service.15:03
sbalneavcheck in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules15:03
pem725after update and reboot, the system now swaps eth0 and eth1.15:03
pem725I changed the rule from eth1 to eth0 in the only rule listed.15:04
pem725but after reboot, the udev rule was changed back to eth115:04
sbalneavYou only have 1 rule?15:04
pem725yes15:04
sbalneavbut you have 2 cards?15:04
pem725the other nic gets assigned though...15:04
sbalneavThrough what?15:06
pem725I don't know.  By default I guess.15:06
pem725I checked again and it appears the 70-persistent-net.rules is not working.15:07
pem725it is set correctly now but it does not assign the proper nic to eth0.15:07
sbalneavIf you've got 2 nics, but only one listed in the 70-pnr, you've got something whacky going on with your hardware, I'd say.15:08
sbalneavbrb15:08
pem725k15:08
pem725ah, one is an nForce and the other is an RTL (r8169)15:09
pem725this is the craziest system I have ever worked on!15:10
pem725brb - will reboot my system.15:10
nubaesbalneav: how do u suggest we update the documentation for edubuntu? 50% is about LTSP... how about 2 docs, or u think thats just confusing the issue?15:12
sbalneavnubae: Well, here's what I was thinking.  We strip out all the LTSP related info out of the edubuntu docs15:15
sbalneavget that stuff fixed up15:15
sbalneavthen, we can either:15:15
sbalneav1) Figure out some way to pull in the LTSP docs into the document itself (might be hard) or...15:16
sbalneav2) make an LTSP docs package that installs into the help application, then just include links to it from the edubuntu docs.15:17
sbalneav"For information on edubuntu LTSP see..."15:17
sbalneavNow...15:17
sbalneavI looked up yesterday:15:17
sbalneavhttp://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Profiling.html15:17
sbalneavThis allows us to have conditional text within a docbook doc.15:18
sbalneavSo, what we COULD do, is, within the LTSP upstream docs, we do need (sometimes) some vendor information in there...15:18
sbalneavi.e. On fedora, blahblah, un Ubuntu, blahblah, etc...15:19
nubaegotcha sounds like a good solution15:19
sbalneavso, if we could make those bits conditional, in the UPSTREAM docs,15:19
sbalneavwe could just package up the upstream docs with "vendor=edubuntu".15:19
sbalneavI just have to figure out the right makefile magic to make it happen :)15:20
nubaeIf we are going to inlcude sugar in edubuntu that includes another entire manual...15:20
sbalneavright.15:20
sbalneavI really liked having the edubuntu handbook in the help section, and I want to see us back to that for Jaunty.15:21
sbalneavI'm going to poke around with the makefile stuff tonight.  Now, you're in Asia somewhere, right?15:22
nubaeAustria15:22
nubae:-)15:22
sbalneavdo'h15:22
nubaeI was in Nepal...15:22
nubaeso not totally off15:22
sbalneavah15:22
sbalneavok15:22
sbalneavSo I was 1/2 right :)15:22
sbalneavSo you're around about the same time's ogra is.15:23
nubaeWell I'm around to help out with edubuntu docs...15:23
nubaeyeah same time as Ogra15:23
nubaetimezone15:23
sbalneavright.15:23
sbalneavok, well, why don't we start with this, since you've also contributed to the ltsp upstream docs..15:23
sbalneavwhy don't you hack out the ltsp stuff from the handbook15:24
sbalneavand I'll work on getting ltsp docs going with the conditional text15:24
nubaeWhat I'm really waiting for is Riched's posting of the list of edubuntu apps, so we include that on the website... there is no place that's listed... or is it in the current handbook?15:24
sbalneavI don't think there's a definitive list anywhere.15:25
nubaeI'll start on taking out the edubuntu specific bits then (non-ltsp)15:25
sbalneavExcellent!15:27
sbalneavLets see if we can mash the two together in a week or two.15:27
sbalneavI just need to do the magic to get the conditionals working, then start marking the relevent passages in the manual.15:28
nubaecool, its time to revive edubuntu a bit, now that we got the name thing sorted out :-)15:30
sbalneavheh15:30
sbalneavWell, manuals are REALLY important.  When I first volunteered to clean up the edubuntu handbook during the gutsy cycle, that was, really, the first and only ltsp5 docs we had.15:31
sbalneavNow things are WAY better, and having good manuals REALLY helps support issue.15:31
nubaeyeah15:32
russell_nashi tried #ltsp for help but that wasn't successful, anybody here undersatnd why I get  a blank screen after login into my thin client? xsesson error message is: local/mark-desktop:/tmp/.ICE-unix/2726715:53
russell_nash** Message: another SSH agent is running at: /tmp/ssh-rjRjM27240/agent.2724015:53
russell_nashx-session-manager: Fatal IO error 2 (No such file or directory) on X server localhost:11.0.15:53
russell_nashgnome-settings-daemon: Fatal IO error 0 (Success) on X server localhost:11.0.15:53
pem725any way to force the nics to swap without rebooting?15:56
pem725that is eth1 for eth0 and vice versa.15:57
sbalneavrussell_nash: Looks like something whacky with ssh15:57
nubaerussell_nash: or u have 2 ssh sessions running15:57
sbalneavhave you tried LDM_DIRECTX=True15:57
sbalneavpem725: Are both the nics now in the 70-* files?15:58
pem725I am adding them right now.15:58
russell_nashwhacky is a good way to describe it. how do I know if I have two ssh sessions running? my setup worked fine for months then stopped a few weeks ago, I have spent all this time searching for a solution.16:00
nubaeps aux16:00
pem725Scott, I added the additional line to the udev rules16:04
pem725is it possible to refresh udev without rebooting?16:04
sbalneavrussell_nash: Have you tried rebooting the server?16:05
sbalneavpem725: Not to my knowledge16:05
pem725ok16:05
sbalneavrussell_nash: two things to try: 1) reboot the server, 2) rebuild the client image.16:07
russell_nashi have rebooted the server over and over in the last week, reinstalled from scratch, hardy & intrepid, currently hardy, as far as I can see sshd is only mentioned once in processess16:07
sbalneavI guess the question is: what changed a few weeks ago? :)16:07
sbalneavSo, you've reinstalled from scratch? Yikes16:07
sbalneavHave you got the box there now?16:08
russell_nashi have deleted and recreated the image a number of times16:08
sbalneavAre you there at the box now?16:08
russell_nashyes i am here16:08
sbalneavok, so, you're running the default desktop, yes?16:09
sbalneavGnome?16:09
russell_nashyes i m, just to clarify an using hardy desktop with gnome16:09
sbalneavok, so on the thin client, you're booting it fine, you get the login window, you type in the username and password, and it says "verifying password", and then the screen clears.16:10
sbalneavand nothing, right?16:10
russell_nashwhat changed a few weeks ago is my grfx card broke, i have new one, but nvidia 8800gt from 7600gt, but could that really make a this happen? i get to the login screen, enter username and password and then i end up with a black screen and mouse pointer, after bout 5 minutes wait ti returns to login16:12
sbalneavThe graphics card, where? On the server or on the thin client?16:14
russell_nashsorry on the server, client is an old dell optilex 240, has ati rage 128 graphics which i believe is just a bog standard pci vesa card16:15
russell_nashi set  to auto in lts.conf but have tried lots of other options, and changing color depth e.g. 16 2416:16
sbalneavCan you paste your lts.conf to the pastebin?16:17
sbalneav!pastebin16:18
ubottupastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu.com (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)16:18
russell_nashsorry, i am new to irc, didnt know that would happen, i will post my current lts.conf, but i have tried many combiniations and also non at all, because it always worked before automatically with none. i will do that now16:20
russell_nashhere it is http://paste.ubuntu.com/83020/16:22
russell_nashthanks for the response, this is the most interest I have had after frequenting many places for help16:23
sbalneavWell, most of the time you'll get a response in #ltsp, I'm normally always in there too.16:24
sbalneavMaybe noone was looking at the time you asked.16:25
sbalneavok, so what's your server's IP address? 192.168.0.1?16:26
sbalneavWhere is your lts.conf BTW? in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386?16:27
russell_nashyes of course, i understand. yes thats right, that is the ip address of the nic card, yes, that is the correct lts.conf location16:27
sbalneavok16:27
sbalneavlets strip things down a bit.16:28
sbalneavlets create a lts.conf that just has:16:28
sbalneav[default]16:28
sbalneav    SERVER=192.168.0.116:28
russell_nasheth1 card is at 192.168.0.116:28
sbalneav    LDM_DIRECTX=True16:28
sbalneavin it16:28
russell_nashok i will edit that now16:28
sbalneavmove the other one out of the way somewhere safe16:28
russell_nashdone16:30
sbalneavok when you've got things set up with the new lts.conf, reboot the TC, and let's see what we get16:33
russell_nashunfortunately, the effect is the same.16:35
sbalneavok, lets try this.16:36
sbalneavLets create a brand new user16:36
sbalneavAre you trying several different users, or using the same one to log in on over and over?16:37
russell_nashi am using 2 logins, the old one that worked in the past and a new one that I created called "test", although its now been several weeks since i created it.16:39
russell_nashi will delete test and create it again16:42
russell_nashok i have created a new user called ltsp, i will try booting that16:48
russell_nashblank screen again unfortunately16:51
sbalneavok, so, ;ets see what's going on with the thin client.16:52
sbalneavlets do this:16:52
sbalneavchroot /opt/ltsp/i38616:52
sbalneav(as root, sorry)16:52
sbalneavpasswd -u root16:52
sbalneav(enter a root password twice)16:52
sbalneavexit16:52
sbalneavltsp-update-sshkeys16:52
sbalneavltsp-update-image16:53
russell_nashit gives me the message password changed when i enter passwd -u root16:54
sbalneavperfect16:55
sbalneavso, rebuild the image with ltsp-update-image16:55
russell_nashunderway16:55
russell_nashcomplete17:00
sbalneavok, reboot the thin client17:03
sbalneavtry logging in17:03
sbalneavthen switch to the console of the thin client by pressing ctl-alt-f117:03
sbalneavand log in as root with the password you entered.17:04
russell_nashok going to do that now17:04
russell_nashok i am at ctrl alt f1 login prompt now17:07
sbalneavLogged in as root?17:09
russell_nashyes17:09
sbalneavok17:09
sbalneavperfect17:09
sbalneavlets have a look at /var/log/ldm.log17:09
russell_nashsorry what command should I use?17:12
russell_nashi m in the directoy, but what to view it?17:13
sbalneavmore ldm.log17:14
russell_nashok, there is a warning: no xath data; using fake authentication data for x11 forwarding LTSPROCKS17:22
russell_nashxauth data not xath17:24
sbalneavHm, ok, well, that's going to be a problem, then17:25
sbalneavYou've built the chroot, have you updated it with the updates?17:26
sbalneavon your chroot, what's in your /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/apt/sources.list file?17:26
russell_nashafter that it says saw sentinel logged in successfully, executing rc files, beginning rc files17:27
russell_nashyes i have updated17:27
nubaehmm usb creator doesn't work on fat1617:27
nubaestrange17:27
russell_nashhere http://paste.ubuntu.com/83050/17:29
sbalneavSo you've chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 && apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && ltsp-update-image?17:32
sbalneavwierd17:32
sbalneavdoes it mention anything in the ldm.log on the Xauthority file?17:33
russell_nashno, that is the only mention of xauth or any kind of allusion to there being an error17:35
sbalneavhm17:35
russell_nashnot easy, is it?17:36
sbalneavDunno.17:36
sbalneavJust needs more debugging :)17:36
sbalneavwhat's running on the server as this test user? Anything?17:37
sbalneavI'm just trying to figure out where it's stalling.17:37
russell_nashsorry, what do you mean?17:37
sbalneavOn the server: ps -ef | grep <testuser>17:38
russell_nashhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/83055/17:40
sbalneavThe screen's still blank?17:42
sbalneavltsp's the user you're logging in with?17:42
russell_nashthat is correct "ltsp" in stead of "test", it was the first name that came into my mind. I have deleted the username called "test"17:44
russell_nashbut results re always identical no matter what username i try17:44
russell_nashi will do another reboot17:44
sbalneavcan you email me the .xsession-error file from ltsp?17:44
sbalneavas well, clear out all ltsp's processes with kill -9 -u ltsp17:45
sbalneavon the server17:45
sbalneavit's definitely gettin PART of the way in, as it's starting the panel, the Xsession, etc.17:45
sbalneavhow's the server and client connected?17:46
sbalneavvia a switch?17:46
sbalneavalso, installed a firewall lately on the server?17:46
HedgeMage"If Illinois isn't the most corrupt state, it's a strong contender."17:46
HedgeMageoops17:47
HedgeMagesorry, wrong chan17:47
russell_nashi do use a firewall. ipkungfu, but that is not new i have always used that since the very first time I ever used ltsp server almost a year ago17:47
sbalneavI'd be interested to see what would happen if you disabled it.17:48
russell_nashok i will try it17:49
sbalneavHeading out for lunch for a bit.  Be back in an hour or so.17:57
russell_nashi tried it, i got slightly further with a "gnome settings  daemon" grey box in the corner that said "did not receive a reply", However, this does happen on rare occasions instead of just the balnk screen.  where do i email the file to? by the way the kill -9 -u tlsp command gives me this message ERROR: garbage process ID "ltsp".17:57
russell_nashok I have to go to, return later if can17:58
LaserJockmorning all18:30
nubaehey LaserJock18:30
nubaeI added some bits to the strategy doc18:30
LaserJocksaw that18:31
LaserJockI think perhaps we should write up a nice howto for using wubi18:32
LaserJockall people would need to do is use wubi and then install edubuntu-desktop to get all the edu stuff18:32
nubaeand split the work of edubuntu handbook with sbalneav, I'm ripping out all the ltsp parts, so we can then conditionally add that to all the distros18:32
nubaeyeah, thats an idea for sure, I think getting windows users to 'see before they buy' would be very good18:33
nubaeI really would like to see a list of all the apps in edubuntu18:33
LaserJockyeah, we *really* need to get on top of that18:34
LaserJockbut it's hard when you're not really sure what you're doing :-)18:34
LaserJockI've been thinking about this whole bundle thing18:34
nubaewell, Riched said hed post what he's got to the strategy doc18:34
nubae guess we can remind him tomorrow18:34
LaserJockand about not really focusing so much on the .iso, but the bundles18:35
LaserJockthe .iso would then just be a convenient way to get the bundles18:35
nubaeyeah I agree18:35
nubaewe need to focus on whats in the iso rather than the iso itself ;-)18:35
LaserJockbecause of history I tend to think more along the lines of we gotta create an .iso and then having a convenient way to install from the internet is just a convenience18:36
LaserJockbut it should really be the other way around I think18:36
LaserJockthe one exception to that I think is LTSP, which isn't directly our problem18:36
nubaeyeah probably 20% will be using the cd18:36
nubaemost people have good net access now18:36
LaserJockLTSP really should be done via the CD (Ubuntu Alternate)18:37
nubaeyeah I think we need to forget a little about ltsp, and concentrate on edubuntu itself18:37
nubaewhat are your thoughts on Sugar integration for jaunty18:37
nubaeit kinda needs a manual of its own18:37
LaserJockwell, we need to figure out a documentation strategy I think18:39
LaserJockour Handbook was primarily LTSP18:39
LaserJocknow that that is properly taken care of by LTSP18:39
LaserJockI'm not sure what exactly we want to work on18:40
nubaeyeah I'm ripping all the ltsp parts out, and leaving us with whatevers left18:40
nubaesbalneav will then conditionally insert the edubuntu stuff into the ltsp doc18:40
LaserJocklike what?18:40
nubaeYou meant what's left... I have no idea yet...18:41
nubae:-)18:41
LaserJockas far as I know there's really not much of anything in there that's up-to-date18:42
nubaeright, I'll try and update... but should we focus on it apps by app18:42
nubaeI mean... we dont need another ubuntu howto18:43
LaserJockwell, but I'm not sure we need that18:43
LaserJockindividual apps should have their own help18:43
nubaeat least pointers to the relevant docs18:43
nubaeyeah but nothing indexed18:43
LaserJockwhy does it need to be indexed?18:43
nubaewell I mean, so users can quickly find where the relevant docs are for the edubuntu app in question18:44
LaserJockwhy wouldn't they find that in the app itself?18:44
nubaeone problem is currently the documentation page on edubuntu.org as 7 different links18:45
nubaewell first of all they need to know which apps are in edubuntu right?18:45
LaserJockno18:45
LaserJockwell, I mean, we need to document that18:45
LaserJockbut as far as help it doesn't matter18:45
nubaeok, let me give an example18:46
nubaelets say you want help on sabayon or pessulus18:46
LaserJockif they're running Kalzium they should be able to go into Help -> Contents or something and get it18:46
nubaefirst... the names are totally confusing so the user doesnt know what hes actually looking at18:46
nubaesecond the docs are scattered all over the net18:46
LaserJockok, my point is 1) they shouldn't have to know what the name is to get help and 2) the app should document itself18:47
nubaeon a tangent... will SchoolTool be included for Jaunty... its up to date and working now18:47
LaserJockthat entirely depends on if it works with our zope18:47
nubaeyou're right, but I dont think most apps are intuitively named... ie... for editing user profiles, use sabayon and pessulus18:48
LaserJocklast I checked they were still using their own18:48
nubaeit should now be a apt-get install schooltool, or a couple others18:48
LaserJockbut again, it shouldn't matter what the app is named in order to get help18:48
nubaeso maybe a better approach is, we split the handbook by topics of usage18:49
LaserJocknow, we should document that separately, but not as help18:49
LaserJockI say get rid of the handbook entirely18:49
nubaereally?18:49
LaserJockI think so18:49
LaserJockit's nothing but a pain18:49
nubaeit may just add a layer of complexity its true18:50
LaserJockit was designed to go onto the users machine18:50
LaserJockwe need to get them info *before* they install18:50
nubaeyeah true dat18:50
LaserJockedubuntu.org and the wiki should give the pre-install and install documentation18:50
LaserJockand if needed perhaps we can put them together into some sort of pdf, I don't know18:50
LaserJockbut once installed we need to make sure that the apps themselved have adequate documentation18:51
nubaewell Riched has that spreadsheet of apps, we could include that18:51
LaserJock*themselves18:51
nubaeand how would we do that?18:51
LaserJocktesting18:51
nubaenot include apps with no docs?18:51
LaserJockno18:51
LaserJockif they have docs make sure they're installed and work18:52
nubaeok18:52
LaserJockif the docs aren't great, contribute better ones upstream18:52
LaserJockif they don't exist we can write some and contribute upstream18:52
nubaehttp://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Profiling.html18:53
LaserJockbut generally the best place to document an app is within the app itself18:53
nubaethats what sbalneav was talking about, we could use the same approach to include apps docs18:53
LaserJocksee, one thing that complicates a big handbook is the bundle concept18:53
LaserJockwe might document stuff people don't have installed18:53
LaserJockso we would have to always make sure people knew how to get the app first, then how to use it18:54
nubaebut it could pull it in conditionally18:54
LaserJockyeah, but that's one heck of a pain18:54
LaserJockI don't want to maintain any docbook18:54
nubaeok, so u are thinking just website and the apps own help sections?18:55
LaserJockat least if I can help it18:55
LaserJockwebsite, wiki, and apps help section18:55
LaserJockbasically18:55
LaserJockI think we could probably keep the About Edubuntu18:56
nubaeok, wiki is probably good place for apps usage, similar to what we did with UbuntuLTSP community pages18:56
nubaebut to start with, we should probably fix the 7 links to various out of date documentation on the website18:57
nubaeI still think the website will be the point of entry for most people18:57
LaserJockwell, we sort of need an overview of what's out there18:58
LaserJockI get the feeling that we have too much "stuff" floating out there18:59
LaserJockand we can't keep it updated and it's confusing to people to have so many resources or points of entry19:00
LaserJocknubae: back with us?19:06
RichEdLaserJock: pingie ping ping19:09
LaserJockRichEd: what's the plan today for the strategy doc, bundles, etc.?19:13
LaserJockI only see 1 LTSP spec on the schedule for today19:13
RichEdLaserJock: just created a 1st pass app bundle spec ... uploading attachment (categorisation of apps now) ... will push to get the session on the table for just after lunch19:13
LaserJocksince this seems largely IRC can we do it at any time that's convenient for everybody?19:13
LaserJockok19:14
RichEdwe only need 2 people here as UDS so any quiet time and small room will work out for us ... confident i can get a space & time19:14
LaserJockI'm a work today so I'm I'll hopefully be able to join for the full time19:14
LaserJockmay be in-and-out19:14
LaserJockI'm expanding the strategy doc at the moment19:15
RichEdLaserJock: going from one meeting to another now ... aiming to have the bundling session at 3:00 or 4:00pm  California time [ 12:00 pm now ]20:01
RichEdi'll confirm the time by 2:00 pm (within 2 hours) from now20:01
LaserJockRichEd: ok20:01
LaserJockRichEd: I'll try to have the Strategy Doc roughed out by them20:02
LaserJock*then20:02
LaserJocksbalneav: around?20:07
LaserJocknubae: you around?20:07
LaserJock*anybody* around in fact? :-)20:07
nubaeam now20:20
LaserJocknubae: have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument20:21
LaserJockthe last 2 things (WINFLOSS and branding) will be incorporated into the rest so those sections will go away in the table of contents20:22
nubaeok, looks quite fleshed out now20:22
LaserJockthe outline is anyway20:23
nubaewhats seed management?20:23
LaserJockseeds are how we define what apps we ship, what would go into "bundles", etc.20:23
nubaeok, like edubuntu-primary, edubuntu-science?20:24
LaserJockit's sort of the core of how we define what packages are "edubuntu"20:24
LaserJockyep20:24
LaserJockedubuntu-desktop is defined there20:24
LaserJocknubae: anything to add/remove?20:29
nubaenot that I can think off, maybe some elaboration on documentation like we discussed today20:30
nubaeI'll add a little subsection under LTSP and administration, about edubuntu fat client... since that specifically installs a set of packages that should sync with what we do in edubuntu20:33
LaserJockhmm, I'm not sure we want to get *that* specific on this doc20:33
LaserJocknot sure yet20:33
nubaeok20:35
LaserJocknubae: that sounds like perhaps more of a Roadmap thing20:35
nubaeIts actually a little like edubuntu, not sure which packages should be installed by default20:35
nubaethe advantage is no limits on ram and cpu20:36
nubaeOne thing people have requested too is wine with edu apps, but thats totally non open source so guess shouldn't be supported20:37
LaserJockwine is open source20:38
nubaethat apps that run under wine I mean20:38
LaserJockah, we're not in a position to support the apps in wine20:38
LaserJockwe need to look at what we're able to actually do :-)20:39
nubae:-)20:39
sbalneavLaserJock: Yes, around now20:40
LaserJocksbalneav: can you have a quick look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument20:41
sbalneavlooking20:41
LaserJockjust the outline20:41
LaserJocksee if you think anything should be added/removed20:41
sbalneavSeems awesome20:42
sbalneavLike a desert and a bottle of wine in a French Cafe beside the Notre Dame.20:42
LaserJockheh20:43
sbalneavnubae and I have already done some quick stratergising about the manual20:43
nubaeLaserjock thinks perhaps we should drop the non ltsp parts entirely20:44
LaserJocksbalneav: yeah, I think we need to talk about that some20:44
LaserJocksbalneav: I'm more of the opinion we should be putting that content on edubuntu.org or something rather than installing as a package20:45
LaserJocknubae: why?20:45
nubaeno reason, just clarifying20:45
nubaeI tend to agree it removes a layer of complexity20:45
LaserJockwell, LTSP is a big part of educational environments20:45
nubaeyep, that part should definitly remain20:46
LaserJockI think if we are clear that we don't "own" LTSP specifically, but that we do care about it20:46
LaserJockthe problem with dropping it entirely is that then people are left out in the cold20:46
LaserJockwe're the only group that does care about it right now20:47
nubaenon-ltsp parts20:47
nubae^^ I meant, keep the LTSP parts, drop the rest20:47
LaserJockrest of what?20:48
nubaeedubuntu handbook20:48
sbalneavOh, I don't think we should drop the rest of the handbook20:48
LaserJockwell, this is how I look at it20:48
sbalneavI think we should have both as installable gnome-help books.20:48
sbalneavhere's why (speaking from personal experience)20:48
LaserJockLTSP documentation should live in LTSP land20:48
LaserJockEdubuntu should just worry about edubuntu-specific things20:49
sbalneavlots people in Brazil don't have an internet connection, and would like access to manuals.20:49
sbalneavLaserJock: right.20:49
nubaebut whats really in the edubuntu manuals? The specific apps? otherwise its just ubuntu with artwork, right?20:50
sbalneavSo, me, as upstream LTSP, can work on the LTSP docs, and we can make them an installable package, and nubae and myself can work on the edubuntu handbook, and just REFERENCE the other ltsp docs.20:50
LaserJockand I think that the best place to put this stuff is on edubuntu.org20:50
sbalneavedubuntu.org in addition to installable xml help files, or instead of?20:51
LaserJockwell, I was thinking instead of20:51
LaserJockthe problem is that yelp sucks20:51
LaserJockit's just awful20:51
sbalneavhaving no, or unreliable, internet sucks even harder :)20:52
sbalneavthen yelp's a dream :)20:52
LaserJockwe can ship PDF/HTML20:52
sbalneavsure, but we can GENERATE all that from the xml20:52
LaserJockright20:52
LaserJockxml also has the high barrier to contribution problem20:52
nubaeEither way we need to define what goes in it20:52
LaserJockif we have people who want to work on it then fine20:53
sbalneavso if we go to the trouble of editing the XML, and yelp DIRECTLY works on the xml, how much extra work is it to have it readable from yelp20:53
nubaeyeah editting in xml format isn't rocket science20:53
nubaethough one shouldn't use open office as I learned :-p20:54
sbalneavHere's the problem as I see it: if we have GOOD docs in wiki, then edubuntu becomes usable ONLY by areas that have innurnet20:54
sbalneavheh, NP20:54
LaserJockwell20:54
LaserJockthat's not *exactly* true though20:54
LaserJockwe can make wiki dumps20:54
sbalneav"wiki dumps"?20:55
LaserJockwiki -> HTML or wiki -> docbook20:55
sbalneavI'm intruigued: go on20:55
LaserJockyou can ship wiki snapshots20:55
LaserJockit takes some work before release but allows broader editing20:56
LaserJockanybody can contribute20:56
sbalneavbut then they have to install apache + wiki to read manuals, no?20:56
LaserJockno20:56
sbalneavor is there a "standalone wiki server" you can install?20:56
LaserJockno20:56
LaserJockyou just dump it as HTML20:56
LaserJockstatic site20:56
LaserJockor you dump it to xml and do whatever you want with it20:56
LaserJockit takes some work but it's an option20:57
sbalneavhm, well, from my point of view (simply playing devil's advocate), we can either xml > (html/pdf/yelp) or...20:58
LaserJockfrom my point of view we can either struggle to maintain xml or ...20:59
nubaefor now, if its just us, we might as well stick with xml and move to wiki slices after Jaunty, no?20:59
sbalneavwiki -> html -> xml (will need cleaning) -> (html/pdf/yelp)20:59
LaserJockI'm not against xml, but we've got a *real* serious problem with outdated xml allover the net21:00
LaserJockpeople are going to doc.ubuntu.com and getting confused when running old commands doesn't work anymore21:00
sbalneavSure, but it's not like we don't have the exact same problem with the wiki too.21:00
LaserJockexcept the wiki is easier to maintain21:01
sbalneavI'm happy to go either way, don't get me wrong...21:01
LaserJockand is a single point21:01
LaserJockwell, me too21:01
nubaeyeah its only because volunteer input that LTSP is so up to date now21:01
nubaeand we have xml and wiki formats there21:01
LaserJockI just want to be clear what that we can actual write *and* maintain this stuff21:01
LaserJockLTSP isn't so bad, you guys have more high quality people21:02
nubaeI think just more people21:02
nubae:-)21:02
LaserJockbut Edubuntu's not got much for resources so I want to make sure we have a sustainable doc plan21:02
LaserJockwe tend to go gang-busters for 1 release21:03
LaserJockthen nothing happens for a couple21:03
sbalneavWhat would help is if there was a nice tool that would allow us to point at a wiki root, and get all the connected wiki pages, and then convert them into a single XML document.21:03
LaserJockand all the docs are dead21:03
sbalneavAgreed.  I busted my hump for Gutsy, but then personal problems made me sit out hardy and a chunk of intrepid.21:03
LaserJockright, and we need a doc model that can deal with that better, IMO21:04
sbalneavWell, maybe I ought to write a "wiki->xml" tool.21:04
nubaesurely that already exists21:04
LaserJockwell, we have that right now21:04
LaserJockbut I'm not sure if that does a tree21:04
LaserJockit'll do single pages for sure21:04
sbalneavright, it's the tree bit that's the issue21:05
LaserJockwell, is it?21:05
LaserJockhow much content do we need?21:05
LaserJockI think we could do it in a single page21:05
LaserJockwe don't have to worry about LTSP, that's covered21:06
sbalneavhttp://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/03/03/sgmlwiki.html21:06
LaserJockwhat else do we need?21:06
nubaeopenwiki transforms to xml and then to xhtml21:06
LaserJocklet's define first how much content we're talking about here21:07
LaserJockI'm really guessing we can do 1 wiki page and convert that to xml for shipping with About Edubuntu21:07
LaserJockwe want a section on how to get help, how to contribute, what edubuntu's all about21:08
LaserJockwhat else?21:08
nubaethats all in the edubuntu handbook right now, in xml format already21:08
LaserJockso we can update that an put it on the wiki21:09
LaserJockthen toward the end of the cycle we dump it to docbook and make sure it looks ok21:09
nubaeok, what me and sbalneav talked about is me ripping out the ltsp parts and seeing what we're left with21:10
nubaeI could then put that into wiki format21:10
LaserJockI think it's basically what I talked about21:10
nubaeand update21:10
sbalneavright, so lets's start there.21:10
LaserJockmy point is sort of this21:11
LaserJockI want that info online somewhere21:11
LaserJockI think *most* people will see it there21:11
LaserJockbut I don't want to cut out the people with bad internet connections either21:11
LaserJockit seems to me in the couple years I've been dealing with wikis and docbook that it's easier to write it on the wiki then dump to xml and ship21:12
LaserJockwe can link to the online LTSP manual in the wiki21:12
LaserJockthen sed that link to a yelp URL or HTML link when we go to docbook21:13
LaserJockthat seems to me to be the most maintainable and inclusive way to have our cake and eat it too :-)21:14
LaserJockthe thing I didn't like about the old handbook was that we never managed to get it online in a good way21:14
LaserJockit ended up getting build and put on doc.ubuntu.com but that's a really bad idea and I think we got a mess from doing that21:15
sbalneavok, just had a look at wt2db from tldp.org21:15
sbalneavIt'll do one page, so maybe with the right wrapper, and sompe python/perl majik, we could make it traverse a tree.21:16
sbalneavlets start with the one page, and see where it goes.21:16
LaserJockwell, wiki.ubuntu.com will give use a single page for free21:17
LaserJockso starting there seems reasonable21:17
LaserJock*us21:17
LaserJocksbalneav: what do you think, am I messin' with your plans?21:17
LaserJockI just really want to get this stuff online too21:18
sbalneavNo, not at all.21:18
LaserJockone thing we could consider is doing docbook -> HTML and somehow getting that HTML on edubuntu.org21:18
sbalneavI want to keep the upstream LTSP doc as XML, since we also do things like generate man pages, etc from that21:19
LaserJocksince we don't have access to the server I'm not sure how that'd work exactly, perhaps there's a good drupal way to do it21:19
LaserJockfor sure21:19
sbalneavbut I have no problem with this, we just need to figure out the tool chain.21:19
sbalneavI'll work on that tonight.21:19
LaserJockthe toolchain?21:19
sbalneavright.  What widgets/pelscripts/magicalgoo we need to go from wiki->xml21:20
nubaebut we cant put that on edubuntu.org21:21
nubaethe scripts that is21:21
LaserJocksbalneav: well, the wiki has a "Render as Docbook" option21:21
sbalneavIdeally, what I'd like is a package where we just type "make", and it goes to some well defined website, and marches through the wiki, generates the xml, then pdf's and yelp files from that.21:21
LaserJockalthough it seems broken, we might have to look into that21:21
LaserJockmight have to set up a local moin instance to do it, which is pretty easy21:22
sbalneavyeah. "You need to install 4suite..."21:23
sbalneavAny way we can rsync all the edubuntu content?21:23
LaserJockok, wait a sec21:24
LaserJock*how* much content do you think we're gonna have?21:24
LaserJockI'm only seeing 1 page21:24
sbalneavdude, once you put it up on a wiki, you KNOW it's gonna turn into a TON of pages!21:24
sbalneav"Here's my tutorial on using gcompris!" "Here's how to install apps in wine under edubuntu" etc.21:25
LaserJockbah, no, we don't want all that21:25
LaserJockthat can go elsewhere21:25
sbalneavlol21:25
sbalneavthen you DON'T want a wiki.21:25
sbalneavthat's what wiki's devolve into.21:26
sbalneavand I'm fine with that21:26
sbalneavlet the users put in what THEY want to see in the handbook21:26
LaserJockdude, we've never really had a problem with *too* much content21:26
LaserJocklook at the Recipes and FAQ pages21:26
sbalneavI know, but the potential's there.21:26
sbalneavI'm sure, in the short term, it'll stay as one page21:27
sbalneavbut long term, it'll morph on you21:27
LaserJockI think it's easier to manage that, IMO21:27
sbalneavand like I say, that's cool, let a 1000 flowers bloom, says I21:27
LaserJockwe just want an intro page21:27
LaserJockpeople can get crazy elsewhere :-)21:28
sbalneavbut if they're willing to get crazy, then why not let them get crazy on the handbook.21:29
sbalneavmy only question is: translations21:30
LaserJockbecause we want a very focused, high quality doc to ship21:30
LaserJockI don't want everybody's tips on everything21:30
LaserJockI want the Edubuntu essentials21:30
sbalneavFair enough.21:31
sbalneavWell, lets start down the road, and see where we end up.21:31
LaserJockit's just not practical to do that I don't think21:31
LaserJockto just include everything21:31
sbalneavSo, all in favour of 1 wiki page, plus goo to wiki->xml, vote!21:31
sbalneav++21:31
LaserJocklet me think on it a bit more21:31
sbalneavlol21:31
LaserJockI'm not convinced of my own proposal21:32
sbalneavbwahahahaha21:32
sbalneavspoken like a true academic!!21:32
LaserJocktranslations are an issue21:32
LaserJockwe can xml2po and get this stuff translated21:32
sbalneavThat makes sense21:32
LaserJockthe wiki would be *much* harder to manage translations on21:32
sbalneavwe just have a cutoff date for wiki updates.21:32
LaserJockhmm, but that leaves the wiki page untranslated21:35
LaserJockI wonder if a xml -> wiki strategy would be possible to get us translations21:36
sbalneavwhat, maintain source in xml, and slap up on a wiki?21:36
LaserJockor turn it into HTML and put it on edubuntu.org21:37
sbalneavWhy don't we just put the xml source on a wiki page, and let people edit it :) LOL21:37
LaserJockI view this as the best of our best in terms of documentation21:37
LaserJockit would be nice to 1) put it in prominent places for people to get at it and 2) have it translated as widely as possible21:38
LaserJockperhaps stgraber could help us21:42
LaserJockI'm not familiar with doing that sort of thing with drupal, I'm not sure how easy it would be to stick a HTML tree in there21:42
LaserJocksbalneav: well, I set up a quick local Moin wiki, put the StrategyDoc into it and rendered as docbook21:49
LaserJockyelp opens it just fine without any modifications21:49
LaserJockthat's something anyway21:50
sbalneavcool21:51
sbalneavI'll try that tonight.21:51
sbalneavwhat packages did you install?21:51
LaserJockwell, it was kinda messy21:52
LaserJockjust because of an Ubuntu problem21:52
LaserJockI got moin off of their website21:52
LaserJockhttp://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition21:53
LaserJockthat gives you the directions21:53
russell_nashsbalneav, where would you like me to email the .xsession-error file?21:53
LaserJockthe problem was that it couldn't find the python-xml package (make sure that's installed)21:53
LaserJockso in the wikiserverconfig.py file I added:21:54
sbalneavrussell_nash: sbalneav@alburg.net21:54
LaserJockimport sys21:54
LaserJocksys.path.insert(0,'/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/oldxml')21:54
LaserJockand then it worked21:54
russell_nasherm, think i know where now, sorry:-[21:56
sbalneavFund the problem?21:57
sbalneavfound?21:57
russell_nashif you mean me, no, i still have the problem i will email the file to you, thanks once again for your help.21:58
sbalneavnp21:59
LaserJockback22:34
LaserJockRichEd: are we set up for a time?22:35
RichEdstgraber / LaserJock / sbalneav : does 3:00 pm (in 25 mins) work for you ?22:36
LaserJockyep22:36
RichEdand ogra_ if he wants to join : application bundling / menu categorisation22:36
RichEdwe'll just run it from a coffee table across IRC and gobby22:37
RichEdrooms seem to be full :/22:37
* ogra_ is in a private meeting at 3pm22:37
ogra_(and i'm completely booked til end of the day)22:38
RichEdogra_: no problemo22:57
RichEdstgraber: you alert ? can we meet up now ... I'm in the plenary room ?22:57
LaserJockRichEd: you editing the strategy doc?22:58
RichEdLaserJock: just saved in 4 mins ago ... put in the branding decisions from yesterday22:59
RichEdshould be available for edit22:59
* RichEd hunts down stgraber ... da dum da dum da dum ... [ background #jaws soundtrack ]23:00
stgraberRichEd: I'm at a QA meeting23:00
RichEdah ... you free in one hour ?23:00
RichEdLaserJock: you free in one hour ?23:00
LaserJockyeah23:00
LaserJockRichEd: maybe we can start working through some stuff and stgraber can come in an hour23:01
LaserJockI really feel like we need to get this thing done and it's gonna take a bit of time23:01
stgraberRichEd: yeah, I should be free in an hour. There is a regression handling discussion in the QA room but I'm far from essential23:02
=== ogra__ is now known as ogra
LaserJockRichEd: perhaps I should give a little on what I'm wanting to do with the doc23:30
RichEdLaserJock: agreed ... i'll hive off the branding considerations and just leave decisions in the strat doc23:30
RichEdthen we can keep it clear as to: this is what education and ubuntu is about, this is where we are heading with these agreed paramaters23:30
LaserJockmy purpose was to create a doc where 1) people can figure out what we're all about23:31
RichEdthe past can go onto a link for the deeply curious to follow if they have too much time and coffee23:31
LaserJock2) as a guide to which we can point to when we're unsure how to proceed (i.e. what are our goals and purposes, how do we resolve conflict)23:31
RichEdgive me 5 min edit time on the strat doc to make the cleft#23:31
LaserJockI think we need a separate page for the spec23:39
LaserJockso we can discuss how to implement and have a place for the discussion23:39
RichEdLaserJock: refresh please ... moved to bottom of page, trimmed the fat/chat23:46
LaserJockok, cool23:46
RichEdOne point I think I will have a battle to fight for is calling the CD Edubuntu ...23:48
RichEdI think the preference would be to keep the CD as the Ubuntu Education Add-on ...23:49
RichEdThe reason behind this is that there is in essence no (one) Edubuntu desktop23:49
LaserJockwell23:49
LaserJockit's a difficult one23:50
RichEdThe Edubuntu desktop with the preselected bundle of old was very much a junior educgtion level ... great for kiddies, but not taken  seriously for Senior Schools or Universitiers23:50
LaserJockI don't mind Ubuntu Education Add-on I don't think if I work on some thing23:50
LaserJockthe problem is that it's really hard to define the CD, etc.23:51
RichEdThe move is to dispell the old view and to get across the message:23:51
RichEd* Install Ubuntu and you have a great base23:51
RichEd* Stick in the Add-on CD and then you can beef up your desktop with a range of choices ... from pre-school to University23:52
RichEd*** all on the same great platform23:52
rockstarWhy don't you just call it "Disc you put in after you install Ubuntu if you want all the stuff for educational purposes"23:52
* RichEd has been called to a quick meeing ... back in 10/15 mins23:52
RichEdrockstar: Ubuntu Education Add-On CD23:52
RichEdsame thing no ?23:53
rockstarRichEd, I've just noticed lots of talk about what the CD should be called.  Call it something and let people be confused.23:53

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