[00:01] <LaserJock> nubae: sorry, was busy, looking better for sure
[11:03] <pem725> sshd refused connection after apt-get upgrade on server - all was working fine before.  I did the usual ltsp-update-*.  Any ideas?
[11:07] <pem725> sshd refused connection after apt-get upgrade on server - all was working fine before.  I did the usual ltsp-update-*.  Any ideas?
[12:02] <generalsnus> we have some problems installing skolelinux here,  we are installing "ftp.skolelinux.org/cd-lenny-test-dvd/debian-edu-amd64-i386-DVD-1.iso"  and we are behind a proxy,  but wehen the install gets to "installing applications" it just ends..with no obvious error.. im guessing it tries to connect to the net.. but it has no proxy settings yet..  what can we do?
[14:49] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:53] <pem725> anyone have a solution for udev swapping my eth0 and eth1 after updates?
[14:54] <pem725> I am using Ubuntu 8.04.1 with ltsp
[15:02] <sbalneav> pem725: Udev swapped them permanently?
[15:03] <pem725> apparently
[15:03] <sbalneav> Never seen that before.
[15:03] <pem725> I updated my system the other day but waited to reboot because I had clients that were still in service.
[15:03] <sbalneav> check in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules
[15:03] <pem725> after update and reboot, the system now swaps eth0 and eth1.
[15:04] <pem725> I changed the rule from eth1 to eth0 in the only rule listed.
[15:04] <pem725> but after reboot, the udev rule was changed back to eth1
[15:04] <sbalneav> You only have 1 rule?
[15:04] <pem725> yes
[15:04] <sbalneav> but you have 2 cards?
[15:04] <pem725> the other nic gets assigned though...
[15:06] <sbalneav> Through what?
[15:06] <pem725> I don't know.  By default I guess.
[15:07] <pem725> I checked again and it appears the 70-persistent-net.rules is not working.
[15:07] <pem725> it is set correctly now but it does not assign the proper nic to eth0.
[15:08] <sbalneav> If you've got 2 nics, but only one listed in the 70-pnr, you've got something whacky going on with your hardware, I'd say.
[15:08] <sbalneav> brb
[15:08] <pem725> k
[15:09] <pem725> ah, one is an nForce and the other is an RTL (r8169)
[15:10] <pem725> this is the craziest system I have ever worked on!
[15:10] <pem725> brb - will reboot my system.
[15:12] <nubae> sbalneav: how do u suggest we update the documentation for edubuntu? 50% is about LTSP... how about 2 docs, or u think thats just confusing the issue?
[15:15] <sbalneav> nubae: Well, here's what I was thinking.  We strip out all the LTSP related info out of the edubuntu docs
[15:15] <sbalneav> get that stuff fixed up
[15:15] <sbalneav> then, we can either:
[15:16] <sbalneav> 1) Figure out some way to pull in the LTSP docs into the document itself (might be hard) or...
[15:17] <sbalneav> 2) make an LTSP docs package that installs into the help application, then just include links to it from the edubuntu docs.
[15:17] <sbalneav> "For information on edubuntu LTSP see..."
[15:17] <sbalneav> Now...
[15:17] <sbalneav> I looked up yesterday:
[15:17] <sbalneav> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Profiling.html
[15:18] <sbalneav> This allows us to have conditional text within a docbook doc.
[15:18] <sbalneav> So, what we COULD do, is, within the LTSP upstream docs, we do need (sometimes) some vendor information in there...
[15:19] <sbalneav> i.e. On fedora, blahblah, un Ubuntu, blahblah, etc...
[15:19] <nubae> gotcha sounds like a good solution
[15:19] <sbalneav> so, if we could make those bits conditional, in the UPSTREAM docs,
[15:19] <sbalneav> we could just package up the upstream docs with "vendor=edubuntu".
[15:20] <sbalneav> I just have to figure out the right makefile magic to make it happen :)
[15:20] <nubae> If we are going to inlcude sugar in edubuntu that includes another entire manual...
[15:20] <sbalneav> right.
[15:21] <sbalneav> I really liked having the edubuntu handbook in the help section, and I want to see us back to that for Jaunty.
[15:22] <sbalneav> I'm going to poke around with the makefile stuff tonight.  Now, you're in Asia somewhere, right?
[15:22] <nubae> Austria
[15:22] <nubae> :-)
[15:22] <sbalneav> do'h
[15:22] <nubae> I was in Nepal...
[15:22] <nubae> so not totally off
[15:22] <sbalneav> ah
[15:22] <sbalneav> ok
[15:22] <sbalneav> So I was 1/2 right :)
[15:23] <sbalneav> So you're around about the same time's ogra is.
[15:23] <nubae> Well I'm around to help out with edubuntu docs...
[15:23] <nubae> yeah same time as Ogra
[15:23] <nubae> timezone
[15:23] <sbalneav> right.
[15:23] <sbalneav> ok, well, why don't we start with this, since you've also contributed to the ltsp upstream docs..
[15:24] <sbalneav> why don't you hack out the ltsp stuff from the handbook
[15:24] <sbalneav> and I'll work on getting ltsp docs going with the conditional text
[15:24] <nubae> What I'm really waiting for is Riched's posting of the list of edubuntu apps, so we include that on the website... there is no place that's listed... or is it in the current handbook?
[15:25] <sbalneav> I don't think there's a definitive list anywhere.
[15:25] <nubae> I'll start on taking out the edubuntu specific bits then (non-ltsp)
[15:27] <sbalneav> Excellent!
[15:27] <sbalneav> Lets see if we can mash the two together in a week or two.
[15:28] <sbalneav> I just need to do the magic to get the conditionals working, then start marking the relevent passages in the manual.
[15:30] <nubae> cool, its time to revive edubuntu a bit, now that we got the name thing sorted out :-)
[15:30] <sbalneav> heh
[15:31] <sbalneav> Well, manuals are REALLY important.  When I first volunteered to clean up the edubuntu handbook during the gutsy cycle, that was, really, the first and only ltsp5 docs we had.
[15:31] <sbalneav> Now things are WAY better, and having good manuals REALLY helps support issue.
[15:32] <nubae> yeah
[15:53] <russell_nash> i tried #ltsp for help but that wasn't successful, anybody here undersatnd why I get  a blank screen after login into my thin client? xsesson error message is: local/mark-desktop:/tmp/.ICE-unix/27267
[15:53] <russell_nash> ** Message: another SSH agent is running at: /tmp/ssh-rjRjM27240/agent.27240
[15:53] <russell_nash> x-session-manager: Fatal IO error 2 (No such file or directory) on X server localhost:11.0.
[15:53] <russell_nash> gnome-settings-daemon: Fatal IO error 0 (Success) on X server localhost:11.0.
[15:56] <pem725> any way to force the nics to swap without rebooting?
[15:57] <pem725> that is eth1 for eth0 and vice versa.
[15:57] <sbalneav> russell_nash: Looks like something whacky with ssh
[15:57] <nubae> russell_nash: or u have 2 ssh sessions running
[15:57] <sbalneav> have you tried LDM_DIRECTX=True
[15:58] <sbalneav> pem725: Are both the nics now in the 70-* files?
[15:58] <pem725> I am adding them right now.
[16:00] <russell_nash> whacky is a good way to describe it. how do I know if I have two ssh sessions running? my setup worked fine for months then stopped a few weeks ago, I have spent all this time searching for a solution.
[16:00] <nubae> ps aux
[16:04] <pem725> Scott, I added the additional line to the udev rules
[16:04] <pem725> is it possible to refresh udev without rebooting?
[16:05] <sbalneav> russell_nash: Have you tried rebooting the server?
[16:05] <sbalneav> pem725: Not to my knowledge
[16:05] <pem725> ok
[16:07] <sbalneav> russell_nash: two things to try: 1) reboot the server, 2) rebuild the client image.
[16:07] <russell_nash> i have rebooted the server over and over in the last week, reinstalled from scratch, hardy & intrepid, currently hardy, as far as I can see sshd is only mentioned once in processess
[16:07] <sbalneav> I guess the question is: what changed a few weeks ago? :)
[16:07] <sbalneav> So, you've reinstalled from scratch? Yikes
[16:08] <sbalneav> Have you got the box there now?
[16:08] <russell_nash> i have deleted and recreated the image a number of times
[16:08] <sbalneav> Are you there at the box now?
[16:08] <russell_nash> yes i am here
[16:09] <sbalneav> ok, so, you're running the default desktop, yes?
[16:09] <sbalneav> Gnome?
[16:09] <russell_nash> yes i m, just to clarify an using hardy desktop with gnome
[16:10] <sbalneav> ok, so on the thin client, you're booting it fine, you get the login window, you type in the username and password, and it says "verifying password", and then the screen clears.
[16:10] <sbalneav> and nothing, right?
[16:12] <russell_nash> what changed a few weeks ago is my grfx card broke, i have new one, but nvidia 8800gt from 7600gt, but could that really make a this happen? i get to the login screen, enter username and password and then i end up with a black screen and mouse pointer, after bout 5 minutes wait ti returns to login
[16:14] <sbalneav> The graphics card, where? On the server or on the thin client?
[16:15] <russell_nash> sorry on the server, client is an old dell optilex 240, has ati rage 128 graphics which i believe is just a bog standard pci vesa card
[16:16] <russell_nash> i set  to auto in lts.conf but have tried lots of other options, and changing color depth e.g. 16 24
[16:17] <sbalneav> Can you paste your lts.conf to the pastebin?
[16:18] <sbalneav> !pastebin
[16:20] <russell_nash> sorry, i am new to irc, didnt know that would happen, i will post my current lts.conf, but i have tried many combiniations and also non at all, because it always worked before automatically with none. i will do that now
[16:22] <russell_nash> here it is http://paste.ubuntu.com/83020/
[16:23] <russell_nash> thanks for the response, this is the most interest I have had after frequenting many places for help
[16:24] <sbalneav> Well, most of the time you'll get a response in #ltsp, I'm normally always in there too.
[16:25] <sbalneav> Maybe noone was looking at the time you asked.
[16:26] <sbalneav> ok, so what's your server's IP address? 192.168.0.1?
[16:27] <sbalneav> Where is your lts.conf BTW? in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386?
[16:27] <russell_nash> yes of course, i understand. yes thats right, that is the ip address of the nic card, yes, that is the correct lts.conf location
[16:27] <sbalneav> ok
[16:28] <sbalneav> lets strip things down a bit.
[16:28] <sbalneav> lets create a lts.conf that just has:
[16:28] <sbalneav> [default]
[16:28] <sbalneav>     SERVER=192.168.0.1
[16:28] <russell_nash> eth1 card is at 192.168.0.1
[16:28] <sbalneav>     LDM_DIRECTX=True
[16:28] <sbalneav> in it
[16:28] <russell_nash> ok i will edit that now
[16:28] <sbalneav> move the other one out of the way somewhere safe
[16:30] <russell_nash> done
[16:33] <sbalneav> ok when you've got things set up with the new lts.conf, reboot the TC, and let's see what we get
[16:35] <russell_nash> unfortunately, the effect is the same.
[16:36] <sbalneav> ok, lets try this.
[16:36] <sbalneav> Lets create a brand new user
[16:37] <sbalneav> Are you trying several different users, or using the same one to log in on over and over?
[16:39] <russell_nash> i am using 2 logins, the old one that worked in the past and a new one that I created called "test", although its now been several weeks since i created it.
[16:42] <russell_nash> i will delete test and create it again
[16:48] <russell_nash> ok i have created a new user called ltsp, i will try booting that
[16:51] <russell_nash> blank screen again unfortunately
[16:52] <sbalneav> ok, so, ;ets see what's going on with the thin client.
[16:52] <sbalneav> lets do this:
[16:52] <sbalneav> chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
[16:52] <sbalneav> (as root, sorry)
[16:52] <sbalneav> passwd -u root
[16:52] <sbalneav> (enter a root password twice)
[16:52] <sbalneav> exit
[16:52] <sbalneav> ltsp-update-sshkeys
[16:53] <sbalneav> ltsp-update-image
[16:54] <russell_nash> it gives me the message password changed when i enter passwd -u root
[16:55] <sbalneav> perfect
[16:55] <sbalneav> so, rebuild the image with ltsp-update-image
[16:55] <russell_nash> underway
[17:00] <russell_nash> complete
[17:03] <sbalneav> ok, reboot the thin client
[17:03] <sbalneav> try logging in
[17:03] <sbalneav> then switch to the console of the thin client by pressing ctl-alt-f1
[17:04] <sbalneav> and log in as root with the password you entered.
[17:04] <russell_nash> ok going to do that now
[17:07] <russell_nash> ok i am at ctrl alt f1 login prompt now
[17:09] <sbalneav> Logged in as root?
[17:09] <russell_nash> yes
[17:09] <sbalneav> ok
[17:09] <sbalneav> perfect
[17:09] <sbalneav> lets have a look at /var/log/ldm.log
[17:12] <russell_nash> sorry what command should I use?
[17:13] <russell_nash> i m in the directoy, but what to view it?
[17:14] <sbalneav> more ldm.log
[17:22] <russell_nash> ok, there is a warning: no xath data; using fake authentication data for x11 forwarding LTSPROCKS
[17:24] <russell_nash> xauth data not xath
[17:25] <sbalneav> Hm, ok, well, that's going to be a problem, then
[17:26] <sbalneav> You've built the chroot, have you updated it with the updates?
[17:26] <sbalneav> on your chroot, what's in your /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/apt/sources.list file?
[17:27] <russell_nash> after that it says saw sentinel logged in successfully, executing rc files, beginning rc files
[17:27] <russell_nash> yes i have updated
[17:27] <nubae> hmm usb creator doesn't work on fat16
[17:27] <nubae> strange
[17:29] <russell_nash> here http://paste.ubuntu.com/83050/
[17:32] <sbalneav> So you've chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 && apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && ltsp-update-image?
[17:32] <sbalneav> wierd
[17:33] <sbalneav> does it mention anything in the ldm.log on the Xauthority file?
[17:35] <russell_nash> no, that is the only mention of xauth or any kind of allusion to there being an error
[17:35] <sbalneav> hm
[17:36] <russell_nash> not easy, is it?
[17:36] <sbalneav> Dunno.
[17:36] <sbalneav> Just needs more debugging :)
[17:37] <sbalneav> what's running on the server as this test user? Anything?
[17:37] <sbalneav> I'm just trying to figure out where it's stalling.
[17:37] <russell_nash> sorry, what do you mean?
[17:38] <sbalneav> On the server: ps -ef | grep <testuser>
[17:40] <russell_nash> http://paste.ubuntu.com/83055/
[17:42] <sbalneav> The screen's still blank?
[17:42] <sbalneav> ltsp's the user you're logging in with?
[17:44] <russell_nash> that is correct "ltsp" in stead of "test", it was the first name that came into my mind. I have deleted the username called "test"
[17:44] <russell_nash> but results re always identical no matter what username i try
[17:44] <russell_nash> i will do another reboot
[17:44] <sbalneav> can you email me the .xsession-error file from ltsp?
[17:45] <sbalneav> as well, clear out all ltsp's processes with kill -9 -u ltsp
[17:45] <sbalneav> on the server
[17:45] <sbalneav> it's definitely gettin PART of the way in, as it's starting the panel, the Xsession, etc.
[17:46] <sbalneav> how's the server and client connected?
[17:46] <sbalneav> via a switch?
[17:46] <sbalneav> also, installed a firewall lately on the server?
[17:46] <HedgeMage> "If Illinois isn't the most corrupt state, it's a strong contender."
[17:47] <HedgeMage> oops
[17:47] <HedgeMage> sorry, wrong chan
[17:47] <russell_nash> i do use a firewall. ipkungfu, but that is not new i have always used that since the very first time I ever used ltsp server almost a year ago
[17:48] <sbalneav> I'd be interested to see what would happen if you disabled it.
[17:49] <russell_nash> ok i will try it
[17:57] <sbalneav> Heading out for lunch for a bit.  Be back in an hour or so.
[17:57] <russell_nash> i tried it, i got slightly further with a "gnome settings  daemon" grey box in the corner that said "did not receive a reply", However, this does happen on rare occasions instead of just the balnk screen.  where do i email the file to? by the way the kill -9 -u tlsp command gives me this message ERROR: garbage process ID "ltsp".
[17:58] <russell_nash> ok I have to go to, return later if can
[18:30] <LaserJock> morning all
[18:30] <nubae> hey LaserJock
[18:30] <nubae> I added some bits to the strategy doc
[18:31] <LaserJock> saw that
[18:32] <LaserJock> I think perhaps we should write up a nice howto for using wubi
[18:32] <LaserJock> all people would need to do is use wubi and then install edubuntu-desktop to get all the edu stuff
[18:32] <nubae> and split the work of edubuntu handbook with sbalneav, I'm ripping out all the ltsp parts, so we can then conditionally add that to all the distros
[18:33] <nubae> yeah, thats an idea for sure, I think getting windows users to 'see before they buy' would be very good
[18:33] <nubae> I really would like to see a list of all the apps in edubuntu
[18:34] <LaserJock> yeah, we *really* need to get on top of that
[18:34] <LaserJock> but it's hard when you're not really sure what you're doing :-)
[18:34] <LaserJock> I've been thinking about this whole bundle thing
[18:34] <nubae> well, Riched said hed post what he's got to the strategy doc
[18:34] <nubae>  guess we can remind him tomorrow
[18:35] <LaserJock> and about not really focusing so much on the .iso, but the bundles
[18:35] <LaserJock> the .iso would then just be a convenient way to get the bundles
[18:35] <nubae> yeah I agree
[18:35] <nubae> we need to focus on whats in the iso rather than the iso itself ;-)
[18:36] <LaserJock> because of history I tend to think more along the lines of we gotta create an .iso and then having a convenient way to install from the internet is just a convenience
[18:36] <LaserJock> but it should really be the other way around I think
[18:36] <LaserJock> the one exception to that I think is LTSP, which isn't directly our problem
[18:36] <nubae> yeah probably 20% will be using the cd
[18:36] <nubae> most people have good net access now
[18:37] <LaserJock> LTSP really should be done via the CD (Ubuntu Alternate)
[18:37] <nubae> yeah I think we need to forget a little about ltsp, and concentrate on edubuntu itself
[18:37] <nubae> what are your thoughts on Sugar integration for jaunty
[18:37] <nubae> it kinda needs a manual of its own
[18:39] <LaserJock> well, we need to figure out a documentation strategy I think
[18:39] <LaserJock> our Handbook was primarily LTSP
[18:39] <LaserJock> now that that is properly taken care of by LTSP
[18:40] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what exactly we want to work on
[18:40] <nubae> yeah I'm ripping all the ltsp parts out, and leaving us with whatevers left
[18:40] <nubae> sbalneav will then conditionally insert the edubuntu stuff into the ltsp doc
[18:40] <LaserJock> like what?
[18:41] <nubae> You meant what's left... I have no idea yet...
[18:41] <nubae> :-)
[18:42] <LaserJock> as far as I know there's really not much of anything in there that's up-to-date
[18:42] <nubae> right, I'll try and update... but should we focus on it apps by app
[18:43] <nubae> I mean... we dont need another ubuntu howto
[18:43] <LaserJock> well, but I'm not sure we need that
[18:43] <LaserJock> individual apps should have their own help
[18:43] <nubae> at least pointers to the relevant docs
[18:43] <nubae> yeah but nothing indexed
[18:43] <LaserJock> why does it need to be indexed?
[18:44] <nubae> well I mean, so users can quickly find where the relevant docs are for the edubuntu app in question
[18:44] <LaserJock> why wouldn't they find that in the app itself?
[18:45] <nubae> one problem is currently the documentation page on edubuntu.org as 7 different links
[18:45] <nubae> well first of all they need to know which apps are in edubuntu right?
[18:45] <LaserJock> no
[18:45] <LaserJock> well, I mean, we need to document that
[18:45] <LaserJock> but as far as help it doesn't matter
[18:46] <nubae> ok, let me give an example
[18:46] <nubae> lets say you want help on sabayon or pessulus
[18:46] <LaserJock> if they're running Kalzium they should be able to go into Help -> Contents or something and get it
[18:46] <nubae> first... the names are totally confusing so the user doesnt know what hes actually looking at
[18:46] <nubae> second the docs are scattered all over the net
[18:47] <LaserJock> ok, my point is 1) they shouldn't have to know what the name is to get help and 2) the app should document itself
[18:47] <nubae> on a tangent... will SchoolTool be included for Jaunty... its up to date and working now
[18:47] <LaserJock> that entirely depends on if it works with our zope
[18:48] <nubae> you're right, but I dont think most apps are intuitively named... ie... for editing user profiles, use sabayon and pessulus
[18:48] <LaserJock> last I checked they were still using their own
[18:48] <nubae> it should now be a apt-get install schooltool, or a couple others
[18:48] <LaserJock> but again, it shouldn't matter what the app is named in order to get help
[18:49] <nubae> so maybe a better approach is, we split the handbook by topics of usage
[18:49] <LaserJock> now, we should document that separately, but not as help
[18:49] <LaserJock> I say get rid of the handbook entirely
[18:49] <nubae> really?
[18:49] <LaserJock> I think so
[18:49] <LaserJock> it's nothing but a pain
[18:50] <nubae> it may just add a layer of complexity its true
[18:50] <LaserJock> it was designed to go onto the users machine
[18:50] <LaserJock> we need to get them info *before* they install
[18:50] <nubae> yeah true dat
[18:50] <LaserJock> edubuntu.org and the wiki should give the pre-install and install documentation
[18:50] <LaserJock> and if needed perhaps we can put them together into some sort of pdf, I don't know
[18:51] <LaserJock> but once installed we need to make sure that the apps themselved have adequate documentation
[18:51] <nubae> well Riched has that spreadsheet of apps, we could include that
[18:51] <LaserJock> *themselves
[18:51] <nubae> and how would we do that?
[18:51] <LaserJock> testing
[18:51] <nubae> not include apps with no docs?
[18:51] <LaserJock> no
[18:52] <LaserJock> if they have docs make sure they're installed and work
[18:52] <nubae> ok
[18:52] <LaserJock> if the docs aren't great, contribute better ones upstream
[18:52] <LaserJock> if they don't exist we can write some and contribute upstream
[18:53] <nubae> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Profiling.html
[18:53] <LaserJock> but generally the best place to document an app is within the app itself
[18:53] <nubae> thats what sbalneav was talking about, we could use the same approach to include apps docs
[18:53] <LaserJock> see, one thing that complicates a big handbook is the bundle concept
[18:53] <LaserJock> we might document stuff people don't have installed
[18:54] <LaserJock> so we would have to always make sure people knew how to get the app first, then how to use it
[18:54] <nubae> but it could pull it in conditionally
[18:54] <LaserJock> yeah, but that's one heck of a pain
[18:54] <LaserJock> I don't want to maintain any docbook
[18:55] <nubae> ok, so u are thinking just website and the apps own help sections?
[18:55] <LaserJock> at least if I can help it
[18:55] <LaserJock> website, wiki, and apps help section
[18:55] <LaserJock> basically
[18:56] <LaserJock> I think we could probably keep the About Edubuntu
[18:56] <nubae> ok, wiki is probably good place for apps usage, similar to what we did with UbuntuLTSP community pages
[18:57] <nubae> but to start with, we should probably fix the 7 links to various out of date documentation on the website
[18:57] <nubae> I still think the website will be the point of entry for most people
[18:58] <LaserJock> well, we sort of need an overview of what's out there
[18:59] <LaserJock> I get the feeling that we have too much "stuff" floating out there
[19:00] <LaserJock> and we can't keep it updated and it's confusing to people to have so many resources or points of entry
[19:06] <LaserJock> nubae: back with us?
[19:09] <RichEd> LaserJock: pingie ping ping
[19:13] <LaserJock> RichEd: what's the plan today for the strategy doc, bundles, etc.?
[19:13] <LaserJock> I only see 1 LTSP spec on the schedule for today
[19:13] <RichEd> LaserJock: just created a 1st pass app bundle spec ... uploading attachment (categorisation of apps now) ... will push to get the session on the table for just after lunch
[19:13] <LaserJock> since this seems largely IRC can we do it at any time that's convenient for everybody?
[19:14] <LaserJock> ok
[19:14] <RichEd> we only need 2 people here as UDS so any quiet time and small room will work out for us ... confident i can get a space & time
[19:14] <LaserJock> I'm a work today so I'm I'll hopefully be able to join for the full time
[19:14] <LaserJock> may be in-and-out
[19:15] <LaserJock> I'm expanding the strategy doc at the moment
[20:01] <RichEd> LaserJock: going from one meeting to another now ... aiming to have the bundling session at 3:00 or 4:00pm  California time [ 12:00 pm now ]
[20:01] <RichEd> i'll confirm the time by 2:00 pm (within 2 hours) from now
[20:01] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok
[20:02] <LaserJock> RichEd: I'll try to have the Strategy Doc roughed out by them
[20:02] <LaserJock> *then
[20:07] <LaserJock> sbalneav: around?
[20:07] <LaserJock> nubae: you around?
[20:07] <LaserJock> *anybody* around in fact? :-)
[20:20] <nubae> am now
[20:21] <LaserJock> nubae: have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
[20:22] <LaserJock> the last 2 things (WINFLOSS and branding) will be incorporated into the rest so those sections will go away in the table of contents
[20:22] <nubae> ok, looks quite fleshed out now
[20:23] <LaserJock> the outline is anyway
[20:23] <nubae> whats seed management?
[20:23] <LaserJock> seeds are how we define what apps we ship, what would go into "bundles", etc.
[20:24] <nubae> ok, like edubuntu-primary, edubuntu-science?
[20:24] <LaserJock> it's sort of the core of how we define what packages are "edubuntu"
[20:24] <LaserJock> yep
[20:24] <LaserJock> edubuntu-desktop is defined there
[20:29] <LaserJock> nubae: anything to add/remove?
[20:30] <nubae> not that I can think off, maybe some elaboration on documentation like we discussed today
[20:33] <nubae> I'll add a little subsection under LTSP and administration, about edubuntu fat client... since that specifically installs a set of packages that should sync with what we do in edubuntu
[20:33] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure we want to get *that* specific on this doc
[20:33] <LaserJock> not sure yet
[20:35] <nubae> ok
[20:35] <LaserJock> nubae: that sounds like perhaps more of a Roadmap thing
[20:35] <nubae> Its actually a little like edubuntu, not sure which packages should be installed by default
[20:36] <nubae> the advantage is no limits on ram and cpu
[20:37] <nubae> One thing people have requested too is wine with edu apps, but thats totally non open source so guess shouldn't be supported
[20:38] <LaserJock> wine is open source
[20:38] <nubae> that apps that run under wine I mean
[20:38] <LaserJock> ah, we're not in a position to support the apps in wine
[20:39] <LaserJock> we need to look at what we're able to actually do :-)
[20:39] <nubae> :-)
[20:40] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Yes, around now
[20:41] <LaserJock> sbalneav: can you have a quick look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
[20:41] <sbalneav> looking
[20:41] <LaserJock> just the outline
[20:41] <LaserJock> see if you think anything should be added/removed
[20:42] <sbalneav> Seems awesome
[20:42] <sbalneav> Like a desert and a bottle of wine in a French Cafe beside the Notre Dame.
[20:43] <LaserJock> heh
[20:43] <sbalneav> nubae and I have already done some quick stratergising about the manual
[20:44] <nubae> Laserjock thinks perhaps we should drop the non ltsp parts entirely
[20:44] <LaserJock> sbalneav: yeah, I think we need to talk about that some
[20:45] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I'm more of the opinion we should be putting that content on edubuntu.org or something rather than installing as a package
[20:45] <LaserJock> nubae: why?
[20:45] <nubae> no reason, just clarifying
[20:45] <nubae> I tend to agree it removes a layer of complexity
[20:45] <LaserJock> well, LTSP is a big part of educational environments
[20:46] <nubae> yep, that part should definitly remain
[20:46] <LaserJock> I think if we are clear that we don't "own" LTSP specifically, but that we do care about it
[20:46] <LaserJock> the problem with dropping it entirely is that then people are left out in the cold
[20:47] <LaserJock> we're the only group that does care about it right now
[20:47] <nubae> non-ltsp parts
[20:47] <nubae> ^^ I meant, keep the LTSP parts, drop the rest
[20:48] <LaserJock> rest of what?
[20:48] <nubae> edubuntu handbook
[20:48] <sbalneav> Oh, I don't think we should drop the rest of the handbook
[20:48] <LaserJock> well, this is how I look at it
[20:48] <sbalneav> I think we should have both as installable gnome-help books.
[20:48] <sbalneav> here's why (speaking from personal experience)
[20:48] <LaserJock> LTSP documentation should live in LTSP land
[20:49] <LaserJock> Edubuntu should just worry about edubuntu-specific things
[20:49] <sbalneav> lots people in Brazil don't have an internet connection, and would like access to manuals.
[20:49] <sbalneav> LaserJock: right.
[20:50] <nubae> but whats really in the edubuntu manuals? The specific apps? otherwise its just ubuntu with artwork, right?
[20:50] <sbalneav> So, me, as upstream LTSP, can work on the LTSP docs, and we can make them an installable package, and nubae and myself can work on the edubuntu handbook, and just REFERENCE the other ltsp docs.
[20:50] <LaserJock> and I think that the best place to put this stuff is on edubuntu.org
[20:51] <sbalneav> edubuntu.org in addition to installable xml help files, or instead of?
[20:51] <LaserJock> well, I was thinking instead of
[20:51] <LaserJock> the problem is that yelp sucks
[20:51] <LaserJock> it's just awful
[20:52] <sbalneav> having no, or unreliable, internet sucks even harder :)
[20:52] <sbalneav> then yelp's a dream :)
[20:52] <LaserJock> we can ship PDF/HTML
[20:52] <sbalneav> sure, but we can GENERATE all that from the xml
[20:52] <LaserJock> right
[20:52] <LaserJock> xml also has the high barrier to contribution problem
[20:52] <nubae> Either way we need to define what goes in it
[20:53] <LaserJock> if we have people who want to work on it then fine
[20:53] <sbalneav> so if we go to the trouble of editing the XML, and yelp DIRECTLY works on the xml, how much extra work is it to have it readable from yelp
[20:53] <nubae> yeah editting in xml format isn't rocket science
[20:54] <nubae> though one shouldn't use open office as I learned :-p
[20:54] <sbalneav> Here's the problem as I see it: if we have GOOD docs in wiki, then edubuntu becomes usable ONLY by areas that have innurnet
[20:54] <sbalneav> heh, NP
[20:54] <LaserJock> well
[20:54] <LaserJock> that's not *exactly* true though
[20:54] <LaserJock> we can make wiki dumps
[20:55] <sbalneav> "wiki dumps"?
[20:55] <LaserJock> wiki -> HTML or wiki -> docbook
[20:55] <sbalneav> I'm intruigued: go on
[20:55] <LaserJock> you can ship wiki snapshots
[20:56] <LaserJock> it takes some work before release but allows broader editing
[20:56] <LaserJock> anybody can contribute
[20:56] <sbalneav> but then they have to install apache + wiki to read manuals, no?
[20:56] <LaserJock> no
[20:56] <sbalneav> or is there a "standalone wiki server" you can install?
[20:56] <LaserJock> no
[20:56] <LaserJock> you just dump it as HTML
[20:56] <LaserJock> static site
[20:56] <LaserJock> or you dump it to xml and do whatever you want with it
[20:57] <LaserJock> it takes some work but it's an option
[20:58] <sbalneav> hm, well, from my point of view (simply playing devil's advocate), we can either xml > (html/pdf/yelp) or...
[20:59] <LaserJock> from my point of view we can either struggle to maintain xml or ...
[20:59] <nubae> for now, if its just us, we might as well stick with xml and move to wiki slices after Jaunty, no?
[20:59] <sbalneav> wiki -> html -> xml (will need cleaning) -> (html/pdf/yelp)
[21:00] <LaserJock> I'm not against xml, but we've got a *real* serious problem with outdated xml allover the net
[21:00] <LaserJock> people are going to doc.ubuntu.com and getting confused when running old commands doesn't work anymore
[21:00] <sbalneav> Sure, but it's not like we don't have the exact same problem with the wiki too.
[21:01] <LaserJock> except the wiki is easier to maintain
[21:01] <sbalneav> I'm happy to go either way, don't get me wrong...
[21:01] <LaserJock> and is a single point
[21:01] <LaserJock> well, me too
[21:01] <nubae> yeah its only because volunteer input that LTSP is so up to date now
[21:01] <nubae> and we have xml and wiki formats there
[21:01] <LaserJock> I just want to be clear what that we can actual write *and* maintain this stuff
[21:02] <LaserJock> LTSP isn't so bad, you guys have more high quality people
[21:02] <nubae> I think just more people
[21:02] <nubae> :-)
[21:02] <LaserJock> but Edubuntu's not got much for resources so I want to make sure we have a sustainable doc plan
[21:03] <LaserJock> we tend to go gang-busters for 1 release
[21:03] <LaserJock> then nothing happens for a couple
[21:03] <sbalneav> What would help is if there was a nice tool that would allow us to point at a wiki root, and get all the connected wiki pages, and then convert them into a single XML document.
[21:03] <LaserJock> and all the docs are dead
[21:03] <sbalneav> Agreed.  I busted my hump for Gutsy, but then personal problems made me sit out hardy and a chunk of intrepid.
[21:04] <LaserJock> right, and we need a doc model that can deal with that better, IMO
[21:04] <sbalneav> Well, maybe I ought to write a "wiki->xml" tool.
[21:04] <nubae> surely that already exists
[21:04] <LaserJock> well, we have that right now
[21:04] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if that does a tree
[21:04] <LaserJock> it'll do single pages for sure
[21:05] <sbalneav> right, it's the tree bit that's the issue
[21:05] <LaserJock> well, is it?
[21:05] <LaserJock> how much content do we need?
[21:05] <LaserJock> I think we could do it in a single page
[21:06] <LaserJock> we don't have to worry about LTSP, that's covered
[21:06] <sbalneav> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/03/03/sgmlwiki.html
[21:06] <LaserJock> what else do we need?
[21:06] <nubae> openwiki transforms to xml and then to xhtml
[21:07] <LaserJock> let's define first how much content we're talking about here
[21:07] <LaserJock> I'm really guessing we can do 1 wiki page and convert that to xml for shipping with About Edubuntu
[21:08] <LaserJock> we want a section on how to get help, how to contribute, what edubuntu's all about
[21:08] <LaserJock> what else?
[21:08] <nubae> thats all in the edubuntu handbook right now, in xml format already
[21:09] <LaserJock> so we can update that an put it on the wiki
[21:09] <LaserJock> then toward the end of the cycle we dump it to docbook and make sure it looks ok
[21:10] <nubae> ok, what me and sbalneav talked about is me ripping out the ltsp parts and seeing what we're left with
[21:10] <nubae> I could then put that into wiki format
[21:10] <LaserJock> I think it's basically what I talked about
[21:10] <nubae> and update
[21:10] <sbalneav> right, so lets's start there.
[21:11] <LaserJock> my point is sort of this
[21:11] <LaserJock> I want that info online somewhere
[21:11] <LaserJock> I think *most* people will see it there
[21:11] <LaserJock> but I don't want to cut out the people with bad internet connections either
[21:12] <LaserJock> it seems to me in the couple years I've been dealing with wikis and docbook that it's easier to write it on the wiki then dump to xml and ship
[21:12] <LaserJock> we can link to the online LTSP manual in the wiki
[21:13] <LaserJock> then sed that link to a yelp URL or HTML link when we go to docbook
[21:14] <LaserJock> that seems to me to be the most maintainable and inclusive way to have our cake and eat it too :-)
[21:14] <LaserJock> the thing I didn't like about the old handbook was that we never managed to get it online in a good way
[21:15] <LaserJock> it ended up getting build and put on doc.ubuntu.com but that's a really bad idea and I think we got a mess from doing that
[21:15] <sbalneav> ok, just had a look at wt2db from tldp.org
[21:16] <sbalneav> It'll do one page, so maybe with the right wrapper, and sompe python/perl majik, we could make it traverse a tree.
[21:16] <sbalneav> lets start with the one page, and see where it goes.
[21:17] <LaserJock> well, wiki.ubuntu.com will give use a single page for free
[21:17] <LaserJock> so starting there seems reasonable
[21:17] <LaserJock> *us
[21:17] <LaserJock> sbalneav: what do you think, am I messin' with your plans?
[21:18] <LaserJock> I just really want to get this stuff online too
[21:18] <sbalneav> No, not at all.
[21:18] <LaserJock> one thing we could consider is doing docbook -> HTML and somehow getting that HTML on edubuntu.org
[21:19] <sbalneav> I want to keep the upstream LTSP doc as XML, since we also do things like generate man pages, etc from that
[21:19] <LaserJock> since we don't have access to the server I'm not sure how that'd work exactly, perhaps there's a good drupal way to do it
[21:19] <LaserJock> for sure
[21:19] <sbalneav> but I have no problem with this, we just need to figure out the tool chain.
[21:19] <sbalneav> I'll work on that tonight.
[21:19] <LaserJock> the toolchain?
[21:20] <sbalneav> right.  What widgets/pelscripts/magicalgoo we need to go from wiki->xml
[21:21] <nubae> but we cant put that on edubuntu.org
[21:21] <nubae> the scripts that is
[21:21] <LaserJock> sbalneav: well, the wiki has a "Render as Docbook" option
[21:21] <sbalneav> Ideally, what I'd like is a package where we just type "make", and it goes to some well defined website, and marches through the wiki, generates the xml, then pdf's and yelp files from that.
[21:21] <LaserJock> although it seems broken, we might have to look into that
[21:22] <LaserJock> might have to set up a local moin instance to do it, which is pretty easy
[21:23] <sbalneav> yeah. "You need to install 4suite..."
[21:23] <sbalneav> Any way we can rsync all the edubuntu content?
[21:24] <LaserJock> ok, wait a sec
[21:24] <LaserJock> *how* much content do you think we're gonna have?
[21:24] <LaserJock> I'm only seeing 1 page
[21:24] <sbalneav> dude, once you put it up on a wiki, you KNOW it's gonna turn into a TON of pages!
[21:25] <sbalneav> "Here's my tutorial on using gcompris!" "Here's how to install apps in wine under edubuntu" etc.
[21:25] <LaserJock> bah, no, we don't want all that
[21:25] <LaserJock> that can go elsewhere
[21:25] <sbalneav> lol
[21:25] <sbalneav> then you DON'T want a wiki.
[21:26] <sbalneav> that's what wiki's devolve into.
[21:26] <sbalneav> and I'm fine with that
[21:26] <sbalneav> let the users put in what THEY want to see in the handbook
[21:26] <LaserJock> dude, we've never really had a problem with *too* much content
[21:26] <LaserJock> look at the Recipes and FAQ pages
[21:26] <sbalneav> I know, but the potential's there.
[21:27] <sbalneav> I'm sure, in the short term, it'll stay as one page
[21:27] <sbalneav> but long term, it'll morph on you
[21:27] <LaserJock> I think it's easier to manage that, IMO
[21:27] <sbalneav> and like I say, that's cool, let a 1000 flowers bloom, says I
[21:27] <LaserJock> we just want an intro page
[21:28] <LaserJock> people can get crazy elsewhere :-)
[21:29] <sbalneav> but if they're willing to get crazy, then why not let them get crazy on the handbook.
[21:30] <sbalneav> my only question is: translations
[21:30] <LaserJock> because we want a very focused, high quality doc to ship
[21:30] <LaserJock> I don't want everybody's tips on everything
[21:30] <LaserJock> I want the Edubuntu essentials
[21:31] <sbalneav> Fair enough.
[21:31] <sbalneav> Well, lets start down the road, and see where we end up.
[21:31] <LaserJock> it's just not practical to do that I don't think
[21:31] <LaserJock> to just include everything
[21:31] <sbalneav> So, all in favour of 1 wiki page, plus goo to wiki->xml, vote!
[21:31] <sbalneav> ++
[21:31] <LaserJock> let me think on it a bit more
[21:31] <sbalneav> lol
[21:32] <LaserJock> I'm not convinced of my own proposal
[21:32] <sbalneav> bwahahahaha
[21:32] <sbalneav> spoken like a true academic!!
[21:32] <LaserJock> translations are an issue
[21:32] <LaserJock> we can xml2po and get this stuff translated
[21:32] <sbalneav> That makes sense
[21:32] <LaserJock> the wiki would be *much* harder to manage translations on
[21:32] <sbalneav> we just have a cutoff date for wiki updates.
[21:35] <LaserJock> hmm, but that leaves the wiki page untranslated
[21:36] <LaserJock> I wonder if a xml -> wiki strategy would be possible to get us translations
[21:36] <sbalneav> what, maintain source in xml, and slap up on a wiki?
[21:37] <LaserJock> or turn it into HTML and put it on edubuntu.org
[21:37] <sbalneav> Why don't we just put the xml source on a wiki page, and let people edit it :) LOL
[21:37] <LaserJock> I view this as the best of our best in terms of documentation
[21:38] <LaserJock> it would be nice to 1) put it in prominent places for people to get at it and 2) have it translated as widely as possible
[21:42] <LaserJock> perhaps stgraber could help us
[21:42] <LaserJock> I'm not familiar with doing that sort of thing with drupal, I'm not sure how easy it would be to stick a HTML tree in there
[21:49] <LaserJock> sbalneav: well, I set up a quick local Moin wiki, put the StrategyDoc into it and rendered as docbook
[21:49] <LaserJock> yelp opens it just fine without any modifications
[21:50] <LaserJock> that's something anyway
[21:51] <sbalneav> cool
[21:51] <sbalneav> I'll try that tonight.
[21:51] <sbalneav> what packages did you install?
[21:52] <LaserJock> well, it was kinda messy
[21:52] <LaserJock> just because of an Ubuntu problem
[21:52] <LaserJock> I got moin off of their website
[21:53] <LaserJock> http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition
[21:53] <LaserJock> that gives you the directions
[21:53] <russell_nash> sbalneav, where would you like me to email the .xsession-error file?
[21:53] <LaserJock> the problem was that it couldn't find the python-xml package (make sure that's installed)
[21:54] <LaserJock> so in the wikiserverconfig.py file I added:
[21:54] <sbalneav> russell_nash: sbalneav@alburg.net
[21:54] <LaserJock> import sys
[21:54] <LaserJock> sys.path.insert(0,'/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/oldxml')
[21:54] <LaserJock> and then it worked
[21:56] <russell_nash> erm, think i know where now, sorry:-[
[21:57] <sbalneav> Fund the problem?
[21:57] <sbalneav> found?
[21:58] <russell_nash> if you mean me, no, i still have the problem i will email the file to you, thanks once again for your help.
[21:59] <sbalneav> np
[22:34] <LaserJock> back
[22:35] <LaserJock> RichEd: are we set up for a time?
[22:36] <RichEd> stgraber / LaserJock / sbalneav : does 3:00 pm (in 25 mins) work for you ?
[22:36] <LaserJock> yep
[22:36] <RichEd> and ogra_ if he wants to join : application bundling / menu categorisation
[22:37] <RichEd> we'll just run it from a coffee table across IRC and gobby
[22:37] <RichEd> rooms seem to be full :/
[22:37]  * ogra_ is in a private meeting at 3pm
[22:38] <ogra_> (and i'm completely booked til end of the day)
[22:57] <RichEd> ogra_: no problemo
[22:57] <RichEd> stgraber: you alert ? can we meet up now ... I'm in the plenary room ?
[22:58] <LaserJock> RichEd: you editing the strategy doc?
[22:59] <RichEd> LaserJock: just saved in 4 mins ago ... put in the branding decisions from yesterday
[22:59] <RichEd> should be available for edit
[23:00]  * RichEd hunts down stgraber ... da dum da dum da dum ... [ background #jaws soundtrack ]
[23:00] <stgraber> RichEd: I'm at a QA meeting
[23:00] <RichEd> ah ... you free in one hour ?
[23:00] <RichEd> LaserJock: you free in one hour ?
[23:00] <LaserJock> yeah
[23:01] <LaserJock> RichEd: maybe we can start working through some stuff and stgraber can come in an hour
[23:01] <LaserJock> I really feel like we need to get this thing done and it's gonna take a bit of time
[23:02] <stgraber> RichEd: yeah, I should be free in an hour. There is a regression handling discussion in the QA room but I'm far from essential
[23:30] <LaserJock> RichEd: perhaps I should give a little on what I'm wanting to do with the doc
[23:30] <RichEd> LaserJock: agreed ... i'll hive off the branding considerations and just leave decisions in the strat doc
[23:30] <RichEd> then we can keep it clear as to: this is what education and ubuntu is about, this is where we are heading with these agreed paramaters
[23:31] <LaserJock> my purpose was to create a doc where 1) people can figure out what we're all about
[23:31] <RichEd> the past can go onto a link for the deeply curious to follow if they have too much time and coffee
[23:31] <LaserJock> 2) as a guide to which we can point to when we're unsure how to proceed (i.e. what are our goals and purposes, how do we resolve conflict)
[23:31] <RichEd> give me 5 min edit time on the strat doc to make the cleft#
[23:39] <LaserJock> I think we need a separate page for the spec
[23:39] <LaserJock> so we can discuss how to implement and have a place for the discussion
[23:46] <RichEd> LaserJock: refresh please ... moved to bottom of page, trimmed the fat/chat
[23:46] <LaserJock> ok, cool
[23:48] <RichEd> One point I think I will have a battle to fight for is calling the CD Edubuntu ...
[23:49] <RichEd> I think the preference would be to keep the CD as the Ubuntu Education Add-on ...
[23:49] <RichEd> The reason behind this is that there is in essence no (one) Edubuntu desktop
[23:49] <LaserJock> well
[23:50] <LaserJock> it's a difficult one
[23:50] <RichEd> The Edubuntu desktop with the preselected bundle of old was very much a junior educgtion level ... great for kiddies, but not taken  seriously for Senior Schools or Universitiers
[23:50] <LaserJock> I don't mind Ubuntu Education Add-on I don't think if I work on some thing
[23:51] <LaserJock> the problem is that it's really hard to define the CD, etc.
[23:51] <RichEd> The move is to dispell the old view and to get across the message:
[23:51] <RichEd> * Install Ubuntu and you have a great base
[23:52] <RichEd> * Stick in the Add-on CD and then you can beef up your desktop with a range of choices ... from pre-school to University
[23:52] <RichEd> *** all on the same great platform
[23:52] <rockstar> Why don't you just call it "Disc you put in after you install Ubuntu if you want all the stuff for educational purposes"
[23:52]  * RichEd has been called to a quick meeing ... back in 10/15 mins
[23:52] <RichEd> rockstar: Ubuntu Education Add-On CD
[23:53] <RichEd> same thing no ?
[23:53] <rockstar> RichEd, I've just noticed lots of talk about what the CD should be called.  Call it something and let people be confused.