[00:01] I've been thinking of how to think of it [00:02] if we call it "Edubuntu" [00:02] then Ubuntu + Edubuntu = something [00:02] if it's Ubuntu Education Addon then we get [00:02] Ubuntu + Ubuntu Education Addon = Edubuntu [00:03] I guess maybe it should be Ubuntu + Education Addon [00:03] Ubuntu is maybe redundant in the second one [00:05] RichEd: where are you ? [00:05] but I'm sort of warming up to the idea of considering the CD as secondary to the "bundles" [00:06] maybe we could even call it: Educational Bundle CD [00:07] not sure if that's any better than Addon [00:12] stgraber: where we met yesterday ... outside the room [00:13] LaserJock: but when does an Ubuntu desktop become Edubuntu ... if you have added 1 edu app, or 3, or a bundle ? [00:13] right, that's a problem [00:13] Is a college who installs Ubuntu and adds 6 higher level edu applications using Ubuntu or Edubuntu ? [00:14] either/both? :-) [00:15] Ubuntu problems / issues should belong to Ubuntu Support .... the education applications & education user issues belong to the Edubuntu "community" [00:15] ok, so you think we should stick with Ubuntu Educational Addon? [00:15] well, edubuntu is the project name which goal is to provide bundles of education applications [00:15] That is why I see that there is no Edubuntu desktop ... simply Ubuntu, with education related applications provided by the Edubuntu project [00:16] so no, I don't think we can say that someone is running edubuntu as it's just Ubuntu + 1->all edu packages [00:16] ok, one sec [00:16] everybody go to http://releases.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/ [00:16] and relationships with Education upstream etc. are all done through the edubuntu community [00:16] this illustrates my problem [00:16] we used to be able to say that as we had an edubuntu distro, so someone was using edubuntu when he installed using the CD [00:17] on that page for Hardy and Intrepid, it says "Ubuntu Educational Edition" [00:17] Ubuntu Educationl Addon ? (not Educational ... that's a tad clumsy with the "al") [00:17] oops sorry ... [00:17] oops, Education Edition [00:17] it's Ubuntu Education Edition [00:17] now if you click on that [00:17] Ubuntu Education Add-on [00:17] for Intrepid [00:18] it says "Ubuntu educational add-on CD" [00:18] and the name of the iso is "edubuntu-8.10-addon-amd64.iso" [00:18] :) [00:18] my point is that there is *no* consistency at *all* [00:18] each thing is a different name [00:18] I think that may have been Oliver's grammar chioce ... [00:19] * Ubuntu Education Add-On CD [00:19] * Edubuntu Project [00:19] * Edubuntu Community [00:19] --- [00:19] That's my take [00:20] And yes, we need to clear up the amibguation and clutter [00:20] ?? comments ? [00:20] I like Education [00:21] RichEd: is Edubuntu Addon Cd out? [00:21] do we need to keep Ubuntu somewhere in the name? [00:21] sounds like an addon for edubuntu to me [00:21] good point [00:21] Yes I think so ... was about to make the same comment as stgraber [00:22] RichEd: do you like something other than "Addon" [00:22] I'm sort of not very fond of it [00:22] to be honest [00:22] yeah, addon sounds a bit "unofficial" [00:22] LaserJock: suggested alternatives ? [00:23] well, I wondered about "Bundle" [00:23] Ubuntu Education Bundle CD [00:23] but a bundle is singular, and the CD will offer 3/4 bundles and also singular install your own selection option [00:23] so again not a great fit [00:23] well, heck we could just get rid of that part altogether [00:24] Ubuntu Education CD [00:24] mrmm ... you got a point [00:24] yeah :) [00:24] it doesn't really imply anything but Education on Ubuntu [00:24] which I think is what we want [00:24] my thinking proof testing is consider other "potential value packs" using the same naming style: [00:25] Ubuntu Multimedia CD [00:25] Ubuntu Education CD [00:25] Ubuntu Financials CD [00:25] so that all works quite cleanly [00:25] * RichEd gives a ++ for Ubuntu Education CD [00:26] +1 [00:26] RichEd: ok, so can you work on getting that done? [00:27] although, that's not the full picture [00:27] yep ... I'll change it on the strategy page, and will ask ogra to make back-changes ... [00:27] LaserJock: ?? [00:27] what about the actual CD name [00:27] edubuntu-8.10-addon-amd64.iso is the current [00:27] would we do ubuntu-education-8.10-amd54.iso ? [00:28] ubuntu-education-8.10-amd64.iso [00:28] I think we need to retain the edubuntu directory structure [00:28] but I don't *think* that should cause any problems [00:29] * ogra notes a ping ... [00:29] ? [00:29] I think the concept that the Edubuntu project/community produce the Ubuntu Education CD should be fairly easy to see [00:29] ogra: we're discussing the .iso naming stuff [00:30] trying to clarify/clean it up a bit [00:30] LaserJock, right, what back-changes is RichEd talking about ? [00:30] ogra: we're going for Ubuntu Education CD and ubuntu-education-8.10-amd64.iso [00:30] ogra: just the naming on the download pages for 8.10 and 8.04 [00:30] note that my approval for edu stuff from davidm is limited t only few hours for jaunty to make changes to the metapackages (this was requested in advance) [00:31] RichEd, can you file a bug for that and subscribe the ubuntu-cdimage team to it ? [00:31] (probably even assign it to them) [00:31] subscribe me [00:31] ogra: sure ... we need direction, not chunks of your time :) thanks [00:31] well, ubuntu-cdimage is the team implementing it [00:31] yeah [00:32] if I somehow found some time I could probably write the patch [00:32] * ogra goes back to intel discussion [00:32] but I'd like to stay in the loop in any case [00:32] RichEd: all good then on that? [00:34] yep ... [00:34] Okay ... we need to get onto the bundle spec ... I have another meeting in 45 mins [00:34] yep [00:34] me too [00:34] what's the URL for that? [00:35] LaserJock / stgraber have you been through the spec [00:35] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/UbuntuJaunty/EducationAppBundles [00:36] What I really need today is an idea of how the menu work LaserJock is working on cuold/would affect the spec I have created [00:36] yeah, just had a quick look [00:36] RichEd: are you only wanting age-related bundles? [00:36] We'll need a session tomorrow over here with someone from the foundation team who would actually do the work [00:37] that part I'm confused about [00:37] LaserJock: subject could be an option, but then subject = science bundle might have a 6 year old science look at the stars mommy up to molecular modelling [00:37] well [00:37] so does that make sense as a bundle ? [00:38] generally I would start splitting into areas at secondary level [00:38] so I would do like Pre-school, Primary, Secondary (with areas), Tertiary (with areas) [00:40] LaserJock: so what about ... [00:41] Bundles : Pre-school, Primary, Secondary, Tertiary [00:41] if we have a whole Education category having more than 4 entries would seem to be ok [00:41] Installs into [ Applications ] [ [ Education ] ] [ [ [ Subject ] ] ] [00:41] Cos surely the teacher would select All Secondary School Apps [00:42] But in class, they want the kids to find apps under menu categories ? [00:42] hmm, right [00:42] it's somewhat unlikely that a machine would be installed *just* for 6th grade science for instance [00:43] so that would make it clean if we went with: Bundles Spec ... Canonical Desktop / Foundation [00:43] Menu Category Spec ... laser and/or Canonical Desktop / Foundation [00:43] * RichEd is just thnking aloud here ... not deciding] [00:44] administer users [00:44] oops [00:44] of course, the creation of the Menu Sub-Categories is kind of a boundary issue across both specs [00:45] RichEd: do you know much of the technical details about how these "bundles" are going to get implemented? [00:45] my thoughts go along the lines of [00:46] LaserJock: matt zimmerman said it was trivial, but i am not too clued up on the tech how [00:46] the Add/Remove category with menu items can be done in gnome-app-install [00:46] *but* you need something for the menu items to *do* [00:47] I would suggest edubuntu metapackages [00:47] we can then have those metapackages also contain menuing information [00:47] "Add/Remove category with menu items" please clarify ? [00:48] ok, so we use .desktop/.directory files to add the "Education" menu with the bundle menu entries [00:48] we do this already on the Addon CD [00:48] yeah, simply shipping some xdg menu files, you can then restrict access to these menus based on unix groups access to the files in /etc/xdg/menus/ [00:48] but when a person clicks on Pre-school, *something* has to be installed [00:49] my high level simplified view was that the bundle just preselected the "category apps to install" as though the user had done each one themselves ... then all proceeds as if it was manual [00:49] is that too silly a concept ? [00:49] well, it doesn't exactly work that way currently [00:50] explain the divergance ? [00:50] you'd have to hack up Add/Remove quite a bit to do that [00:50] well, in Add/Remove each entry corresponds to 1 package [00:50] when a user chooses the entry the corresponding package is installed [00:50] LaserJock: ^ nope I disagree [00:51] when a user chooses the entry the corresponding package is *selected* [00:51] well, right [00:51] then they can go to games ... select others [00:51] then they can go to tool ames ... select others [00:51] so we'd need an extra category like "Education bundles" with the various meta-packages in them [00:51] then they can go to tools ... select others [00:51] but it's a 1:1 correspondence between entry and package [00:51] is my point [00:52] not 1:how many ever you want [00:52] then ... they click apply ... then it says ... "the following changes will be made" [00:52] so the route I was thinking is that the bundle choice simply does the "checkboxing" and then it moves to "the following changes will be applied" [00:53] one app per checkbox [00:53] well, I'm saying that's quite a bit of hacking [00:53] for something we can already do with no changes [00:54] okay ... can you perhaps fill out the design section on the spec ... the way you would see it ? [00:54] plus we can use that to do things like menus, etc. [00:54] i'll need to get someone in from the team who will actually carry this out for us in a session tomorrow [00:54] I already have ~ 6 "bundles" on the Addon CD *and* have the Add/Remove bits [00:55] essentially I believe I've implemented your spec, we just need to make some changes :-) [00:55] so today is a prep as far as we can get ... then tomorrow is "this is what we need, this is our suggestion, how would you like to apply it" [00:55] LaserJock: so what is left ... just some string, glue and blue tack ... with a lick of paiin [00:55] paint [00:55] well [00:56] I only do the Add/Remove stuff on the CD [00:56] we'd need Ubuntu to have my data package installed so you can get at it from Ubuntu [00:56] and we'd want to define the bundles better [00:56] but in Intrepid I changed them to use seeds so it's much easier to do [00:57] but I'm pretty sure most of all the technical bits have already been done in Edubuntu [00:58] we just need to get some of that moved to Ubuntu and better bundle definitions [00:58] if we then hook that up with the menus I think it might end up pretty cool [00:59] RichEd: I just don't want you guys to end up duplicating work we've already done and we're likely to duplicate anyway [01:00] because I've already got a pre-school "bundle", I just call it Young [01:00] LaserJock: points taken ... but here is the deciding factor [01:00] It is essential that [1] we can offer the install bundles option for Jaunty, in and working [01:01] [2] we can promise this now to decision makers ... and know that it will happen [01:01] right [01:01] So, if we have the edubuntu resources who can & will deliver ... great [01:01] well, I'll put it this way [01:02] I'm less concerned about *who* does the work than where it's done [01:02] If we don't, then canonical will satisfy the use case using internal devs [01:02] since Edubuntu *already* wants to make those bundles and has a good start I don't think it's wise to duplicate [01:02] but I understand the concern about making sure it's done [01:03] Background: We have people promoting Ubuntu in India, and the guys (decision makers) are hovering between building their own distro, or going ubuntu [01:04] Simple things like this bundling may tip the scales# [01:04] So we need 100% certainty that it can be promised [01:05] 100% delivery on the trivial bundles is preferred to 95% delivery on bundles + menus + teacher menu editor [01:05] ^ that is all just a reality check ... not any comment in any way ... please understand [01:05] :) okay [01:06] So how do we proceed ... with conviction ? [01:06] well, I say first put down the technical details of what needs to get done [01:06] do the spec [01:06] then we can figure out who's gonna implement [01:07] IMO anyway [01:07] yeah [01:08] So would it maker most sense for me to flesh out the spec a bit more, and then have a session scheduled tomorrow where we can get voice going, and get someone from Canonical internal tech to be present ? [01:09] then LaserJock can comment on his work and approach, and agreement might be reached on how to go forward and with who doing it [01:09] A risk is that our own homebrew approach may not be approved to go into add/remove ... so we need a blessing or a nae before we leave UDs [01:09] well [01:10] I mean, not to be a jerk, but I have more power to make the changes [01:10] unless you get mvo to do it [01:10] (seeing as this is now an Ubuntu spec / impact ... and not just an Ubuntu) [01:10] I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer after all [01:10] I don't need permission per se [01:11] * RichEd bows down in respect to LaserJock and thanks for the work he does and will do ... (seriously) ... but what I need to cover my gonads from getting ripped off is a guarantee [01:11] sure [01:11] I'm just saying I can put the details of how to do it in the spec [01:12] so ... methinks ... LaserJock & mvo in a session tomorrow ... would that be clean ? [01:12] and if the internal person can upload then fine, no problems [01:12] and if LaserJock can do the spec design before tomorrow, i'll throw ion a free t-shirt [01:13] mvo looks kindly on our education requests, and I think LaserJock / stgraber / mvo / RichEd would be a good quorum [01:13] yeah, I worked with mvo to get our current Addon CD stuff [01:13] then we are pretty much covered for design, approval, and 100% delivery [01:13] yeah, I don't think it should be any problem to have mvo do the change especially as it's something Canonical wants:) [01:14] okay ... i need to go to a one-on-one meeting now ... end of session in 2 mins ... [01:14] sbalneav, ping! [01:14] hello RichEd, long time no see [01:14] nubae, ping [01:14] hey pygi [01:14] * stgraber has to go too [01:14] mvo either doing the change or blessing it is a good confidence booster [01:16] yes, mvo is the *man* when it comes to Add/Remov [01:16] * RichEd has to dash [01:18] before I go ... seen this anyone ? [01:18] http://scratch.mit.edu/ [01:18] any comments would be appreciated [01:19] I think that's a Squeak app [01:19] or maybe not [01:19] yep ... squeak want to bundle into (Ed)Ubuntu ... MIT want to collaborate ... I need to know how much of a use it is to edu in the real world [01:20] squeak is big [01:20] we just have licensing issues [01:20] hopefully it'll work out though [01:20] Sugar wants Squeak too [01:22] okay ... thanks [01:22] Evening all [01:22] what we need is to get Squeak people interested in Ubuntu [01:22] Hello pygi [01:22] it's a mess to maintain, I'm not particularly wanting to jump on it :-) === Mario__ is now known as pygi [01:26] sbalneav, I hear you're reviving our old project ;) [01:26] Which, the handbook? :) [01:30] sbalneav, yup === Mario__ is now known as pygi [01:30] Yeah, well, the handbook continued on as upstream LTSP: [01:31] http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream [01:31] Now we're going to rip out the LTSP bits from Edubuntu handbook, and focus on Edubuntu-ey bits, since LTSP's found an upstream home :) === Mario__ is now known as pygi === Loto__ is now known as Loto === spacey_ is now known as spacey [14:40] hi everybody [15:57] Morning all [15:57] morning sbalneav [15:57] well evening here [19:34] RichEd! [19:34] LaserJock: !! [19:35] RichEd & LaserJock run towards each other in slow motion ... dramatic reunion music [19:35] lol [19:35] :) [19:35] RichEd: I was thinking last night about the bundles [19:35] RichEd: I reread the spec in detail and see some non-trivial things [19:35] LaserJock: I was chatting to mvo about the last night about the bundles [19:36] heh [19:36] LaserJock: fill me in please ... where are the showstoppers [19:36] well, for 1 you have to push the bundles to the top of the list [19:36] right now Add/Remove just sort alphabetically [19:36] you'd have to add a flag to the bundle .desktop to make them "float to the top" [19:37] 2) showing the list of apps to install and letting the user deselect some is not trivial at all [19:38] however [19:38] I thought of an alternative when I was thinking of all this [19:38] re 2) the normal install process does that ... as per my use case ... hence my view of just using the bundle option to do a background macro select mimicing the user clicks# [19:38] * RichEd listens [19:39] well, I'm not saying 2 can't be done [19:39] I'm saying it's currently not in the UI [19:39] so mvo would either need to do it for everything or special-case the bundles [19:39] here's my thinking though [19:40] * RichEd listens more intently [19:40] I'm thinking that perhaps we're trying to stuff too much into Add/Remove [19:40] maybe it's not the best place to do this [19:40] what if we created a new menu item *just* for install Edu software [19:41] in System -> Administration we could have a "Install Educational Software" or "Educational Software Installer" entry [19:41] that would call up a *customized* Add/Remove window [19:41] that is now categorized not like "Applications, Education, Graphics ..." [19:41] Can Edubuntu be added to a stand-alone desktop machine, or do I need Ubuntu Server? [19:42] ball: for an LTSP server use Ubuntu Alternate Cd [19:42] ball: Edubuntu is now an Unbuntu install + Education Add-On CD to get the education apps [19:42] ball: for just the Educational software, yes, you just need an Ubuntu Desktop installation [19:42] LaserJock: Is that the Ubuntu Server Alternative CD? [19:42] ball: no [19:42] or you can use Ubuntu + Add/Remove [19:42] ball: just plain Ubuntu Alternate CD [19:42] ok [19:43] LaserJock: but that's not where the user would stumble across it ... mr joe average goes to Add/Remove ... we want to hit him there [19:43] Will it work with Xubuntu, or is Gnome required? [19:43] LaserJock: mdz felt it was trivial to implement during a high-level discussion via Add/Remove ... [19:43] ball: well, if you install the edubuntu-desktop package it's going to pull in some Gnome stuff, but you can install it on Xubuntu [19:44] RichEd: well, trivial to implement, I'm just not sure it's the best way to go about it [19:44] LaserJock: Thanks. If I can fix my hardware problem, I'll give that ago in the early hours of tomorrow morning. [19:44] ...or perhaps late tonight. [19:44] RichEd: I think System -> Administration would be a decent place to put it [19:45] though I recognize that it's a bit of a confusion to have both Add/Remove and this second install windows [19:45] we do that already with Synaptic, but perhaps 3 is too much [19:46] RichEd: what I like about this separate UI is that we're free to play with the menu [19:46] RichEd: for what we're doing I think sticking everything in the "Education" menu is too restrictive [19:46] LaserJock: see above ... joe public goes to Add/Remove to check out the software available ... we want him to stumble across the bundles there and go ... like hey shew wow ... i gott get me some of that [19:46] RichEd: I know, i know [19:46] it's a difficult thing [19:47] we need him/her to find it *without* being told or needing to find documentation, or even understanding en glish properly [19:47] I personally don't like Add/Remove all that much because of that sort of issue [19:47] people get pointed to Add/Remove but it only represents a fraction of the software that's available [19:47] LaserJock: a slice of bread is better than a theoretical optimised non-real vapour loaf of raisin bread ... [19:47] it's stuck to this "must reflect the Applications menu" model that doesn't give us any flexability [19:48] if Add/Remove is where people go, then that is where we need to be [19:48] optimal or not [19:48] RichEd: ok, but I'd put to you that "Install Educational Software" is *much* better than "Add/Remove ..." [19:48] they know *exactly* what that means [19:48] if the whole add/remove is one day optimised, then we'll get optimised with that [19:49] LaserJock: there is no reason why we could not have a System / Install Edu Softyware *as well* [19:49] perhaps [19:49] But we *need* a trivial, low level, average me poke around to see what do I get, Add/Remove option# [19:50] well, I know [19:50] I just think that my proposal is the most trivial and most straight forward, both to the user and the person implementing [19:51] but I do acknowledge the point that Add/Remove is more widely know as the place to get software [19:51] even if I disagree that it should be :-) [19:52] Is Edubuntu mostly a collection of binary packages? [19:52] ...that relate to education? [19:52] RichEd: the thing about doing a separate UI is that we can do a whole lot better at presenting software to people [19:52] ball: basically yes [19:52] So why not have a metapkg in Add/Remove and an Education menu to access the apps? [19:53] * RichEd notes in the record that LaserJock has a better cleaner neater now new & improved solution, but gets down on his knees and begs him to please help with the use case requiring an Add/Remove education bundle choice [19:53] ball: well, we're trying to get a bit more fine-grained selection [19:53] RichEd: well, do note that my idea *uses* Add/Remove [19:54] we're just providing a "shortcut" to go straight to a better Education view [19:54] LaserJock: right, well the metapkg could let you add/remove everything, but the individual packages would also be listed there individually wouldn't they? [19:54] sure [19:55] but we're trying to create several metapackages and get them shown to the user in a good way [19:55] do you need a parametapkg? :-) [19:55] heh [19:56] How about just prefixing the name of Edubuntu metapkgs with, say 'Edubuntu ' [19:56] ? [19:57] RichEd: ok, so we can start by implementing the original spec, though I don't think it's as easy/nice, and get feedback on my idea for Jaunty+1? [19:57] I think it's just kinda ugly to special-case the bundles [19:58] I doubt mvo likes that very much [19:58] hello HedgeMage [19:59] RichEd: another alternative I put on the spec page was to create a separate category for the bundles, something like "Education Bundles" that would separate bundles from individual apps [19:59] Kickin' Kiwi ? [19:59] I don't like it very much, but it's something I thought of [20:00] hi, ball [20:02] LaserJock: could be an option, but do Ubuntu want Education to take up 2 Add/Remove categories ? [20:05] RichEd: well, that's why I didn't like the idea [20:07] it's hard to not be intrusive, but also get stuff out there for people [20:09] RichEd: one other idea would be to utilize apt-url more [20:11] in fact that could be a really rockin' addition [20:14] LaserJock: sorry to keep going around in circles back to the same point, but we need to have a way of putting an option to install education bundles by school level in the face of the casual user ... and the casual user goes to Add/Remove to see what apps they can install [20:15] right, but now I've got a 3-pronged approach [20:15] All the ++ and bells and whistles are secondary to the completion of that ... if we try to wrap up perfection now ... we lose the base requirement [20:15] RichEd: honestly I don't think people use Add/Remove as much as they use their web browser [20:16] here's what we do though: [20:16] 1) Add/Remove entries in "Education" for bundles, implement current spec more-or-less [20:16] 2) Customized Add/Remove used on Ubuntu Education CD (what we do know but will use bundles) [20:17] ^ "as much as their web browse" explain that please for my edification ? [20:17] 3) ubuntu.com/education and/or edubuntu.org pages using apt-url that describe contents of bundles, apps [20:17] RichEd: in Ubuntu we can install software from a web browser [20:17] RichEd: people will naturally look for software online [20:18] so we hit them there as well [20:19] I think you'd actually get more installs via web than you would via Add/Remove [20:19] but we can hit them all really, no reason not to [20:19] hitting people is bad ;-) [20:19] heh [20:20] * RichEd hits mr ball in the ****s for facaetious comments ;) [20:20] "in Ubuntu we can install software from a web browser" -> where do you mean specifically ... I need to understand what you mean [20:21] RichEd: open up firefox and type in apt://gcompris in your location bar [20:21] That's not the usual way of installing software on Ubuntu though afaik [20:21] no, but there's no reason we can't use it here [20:21] ...though a showcase/galary thing might be neat. [20:21] we already have some pages to showcase [20:21] (more digestable than Add/Remove) [20:21] we want to do more [20:22] so if we hook those up we're getting even better coverage, IMO [20:22] LaserJock: that is not really a browsable way of seeing what is available, and I doubt that > 2% of average education users have ever tried that out for themselves [20:22] I'm not suggesting using it as a replacement for Add/Remove [20:23] you need to know the package name beforehand as well [20:23] RichEd: no, that's why you make links in an HTML page [20:23] if I make up a webpage that describes gcompris, gives screenshot, user testimonials for that matter [20:23] that's a good idea, but let's file that under things to do once we have got add/remove bundles working [20:23] then do a link: apt://gcompris they can just click the link and install [20:24] everyone has an add/remove menu item [20:24] sure, I'm not taking that away [20:24] not everyone will find the gallery page [20:24] but in terms of reaching people I think you're more likely to get people on a web page [20:24] noted ... but can we take away all other options apart from add/remove until we have add/remove sorted ? [20:24] so it's something to look into, especially as we already need pages that list/describe the software [20:25] * RichEd does the get down on the knees thinga again [20:25] RichEd: what I'm describing is a larger-scale spec [20:25] RichEd: don't worry [20:25] I'm just thinking large scale for a bit [20:25] 3 prong approach [20:25] but for today we're looking at 1 prong [20:26] so if mvo can do that add/remove changes needed, I can provide the bundles [20:26] s/that/the/ [20:27] okay ... i need to grab him to chat ... i discussed getting some of his time today and he was okay with that ... [20:27] let me ping him now ... [20:27] that'd be great [20:30] RichEd: I'm free most afternoon, I'm staying in the QA room but can join you to talk to mvo [20:30]