[00:00] <LaserJock> RichEd: it'll be great for Edubuntu, IMO, but I don't think it'll be ready to go for Jaunty
[00:00]  * RichEd choses strawberry
[00:00] <LaserJock> nubae: we won't get a Sugar submenu
[00:00] <nubae> lol
[00:00] <nubae> ok, education then
[00:00] <nubae> its just something to be able to tell teachers
[00:00] <nubae> and there will be a lot of sugar deployments soon
[00:00] <RichEd> nubae: regarding sugar ... assume that we are going to build a strong relationship with the sugar folk, and that we will ensure that there is a clear and simple way to get sugar available and in the easy reach of ubuntu folk
[00:00] <LaserJock> well, we can add it, but it's not exactly the way Add/Remove is designed
[00:01] <LaserJock> Add/Remove is designed to mimic what you see in the Applications menu
[00:01] <RichEd> note that there is already a strong sugar relationship with ubuntu (tech wise) now we need to extend it to education (relationship wise)
[00:01] <LaserJock> Sugar won't appear in the Applications menu I don't think so it's a tad misplaced
[00:01] <nubae> RichEd: this is definitly in Canonicals interest... many schools want it.. as an example, next week I am going down to Graz to install sugar on ltsp along side their existing olpc xo pilot
[00:02] <LaserJock> but of course we're adding bundles that won't either so I guess that argument is somewhat mute
[00:02] <nubae> I just think it adds value and content
[00:02] <LaserJock> I might have to brainstorm with mvo sum
[00:03] <LaserJock> *some
[00:03] <nubae> mvo?
[00:03] <RichEd> nubae: to clarify as well from the company side, sugar folk tell me that the OEMs are asking for ubuntu under sugar ... so you can expect to have some corporate weight behind the requirement to get it available and within easy reach
[00:03] <LaserJock> nubae: mvo is the guy that wrote Add/Remove and generally maintains our package managers
[00:03] <LaserJock> Add/Remove was never meant to show *everything* that can be installed
[00:03] <nubae> RichEd: ok, cool, from my side, we've been asked to certify edubuntu + sugar works on a variety of netbooks...
[00:03] <RichEd> not just for ed(ubuntu) but for ubuntu and the folk making low spec machines (read netbook etc)
[00:04] <LaserJock> it was just supposed to be a selection of GUI desktop apps
[00:04] <nubae> RichEd: I get sent various netbooks to test for edubuntu and sugar...
[00:04] <nubae> and report to the Austrian ministry of education
[00:05] <LaserJock> RichEd: so I think the biggest requirement we need from mvo is getting the bundles to show up at the top of the Education menu
[00:05] <nubae> LaserJock: +1
[00:05] <LaserJock> RichEd: or do you still want to push for having the ability to deselect?
[00:06] <RichEd> LaserJock: if the user can't do that now for other circumstances ... i can live without it
[00:06] <LaserJock> the deselect thing is a bit problematic, though it should be feasible as long as the metapackages use Recommends
[00:06] <LaserJock> I guess mvo can tell us
[00:08] <RichEd> same thing via synaptic
[00:08] <LaserJock> so like "Primary (supported)" and "Primary (unsupported)" ?
[00:09] <LaserJock> that would correspond to edubuntu-primary-main and edubuntu-primary-universe metapackages
[00:10] <LaserJock> the package descriptions could then give more info on what all that means :-)
[00:10] <RichEd> LaserJock: i guess we can consider that ... although some of the bundles will be quite sparse if we go main only
[00:10] <LaserJock> RichEd: well, we plan on fixing that too
[00:11] <LaserJock> we have ~400 MB of space on the CD left
[00:11] <RichEd> we could even get funky and make the bundle show up or not depending on whether the user has selected [ show all open source ] or [ show supported ]
[00:11] <RichEd> LaserJock: as long as the other (newly promoted) apps get some decent support
[00:11] <LaserJock> RichEd: that's *precicely* what would happen with the metapackages
[00:12] <nubae> is there a definitive idea on how to classify metapackages now?
[00:12] <LaserJock> if you drop the edubuntu-primary-universe package in Universe then it wall only show up with [ show all open source ]
[00:12] <LaserJock> the problem is that edubuntu-primary-main would *also* show up :/
[00:13] <LaserJock> nubae: in what way?
[00:13] <LaserJock> RichEd: apps in Main right now don't get great support
[00:13] <nubae> something simpler than that... ie... edubuntu-primary, edubuntu-maths, edubuntu-science
[00:13] <LaserJock> if we can build the Edubuntu developer community hopefully that will turn around
[00:14] <LaserJock> nubae: we need a way to separate what is supported and community-supported
[00:14] <LaserJock> we can just stick -universe on the end of the ones that are community-supported
[00:15] <nubae> is that really needed, just seems to complicate things
[00:15] <nubae> naming wise
[00:16] <LaserJock> well, two things can't have the same name
[00:17] <LaserJock> and at the package dependency level we can't say "if some switch is thrown just install the Main ones"
[00:17] <nubae> well it works from add/remove, which I believe is what most teachers will use
[00:17]  * RichEd asks the guys to drop the Edubuntu concept where you are not talking about humans, the project, or community
[00:18] <RichEd> so it is: ubuntu-education-primary
[00:18] <LaserJock> RichEd: well, all the technical stuff is already "edubuntu"
[00:18] <RichEd> ubuntu-education-primary-unsupported
[00:18] <LaserJock> so I was just going with what we already have
[00:19] <LaserJock> maybe we can shorten that down to ubuntu-edu
[00:19] <LaserJock> ubuntu-education takes up a lot of space
[00:19] <LaserJock> hence why edubuntu was always nice
[00:20] <RichEd> LaserJock: i thought you said we havd 400MB
[00:20] <RichEd> ;)
[00:20] <LaserJock> and ufortunately education-* is already taken
[00:20] <LaserJock> RichEd: heh
[00:20] <RichEd> mkay re historical ... but we'll need to steer it graciously away from edubuntu ...
[00:20] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu is a cool abbreviation
[00:21] <RichEd> kind of like a dyslexic edubuntu '_
[00:21] <LaserJock> :-)
[00:21]  * Lns thinks ubuntu-edu rolls off the tongue much better than edubuntu 
[00:21] <nubae> ubuntu-edu makes sense
[00:22] <RichEd> "ubuntu is a great product" add the edu and it becomes a great product tailored for education
[00:22] <nubae> its part of the new name and part of the old
[00:22] <nubae> an easy transition
[00:22] <Lns> much less confusing =)
[00:22] <LaserJock> RichEd: I think if we have the two ubuntu-edu-primary and ubuntu-edu-primary-universe
[00:23] <RichEd> that's the message ... which means we will get the support of the ubuntu community / core guys and edu is the sector expert project
[00:23] <LaserJock> and then they showed up in Add/Remove as "Primary" and "Primary (community supported"
[00:23] <RichEd> LaserJock: sounds good
[00:23] <nubae> yeah that sounds good
[00:23]  * RichEd needs a power socket ... gimme a min
[00:24] <LaserJock> the individual apps in Add/Remove already say their support level so that's no worry
[00:24] <LaserJock> I can work up the seeds for that no problem
[00:26] <LaserJock> nubae: you need to learn how to work with seeds :-)
[00:26] <nubae> Lns: did u ever get a conclusion on the tuxpaint/tuxmath freezing issue due to pulse on ltsp?
[00:27] <nubae> LaserJock: yeah still confused about that :-)
[00:27] <LaserJock> nubae: have you every used bzr?
[00:27] <nubae> yeah use it for ltsp
[00:28] <LaserJock> nubae: great, bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.jaunty
[00:29] <Lns> nubae: Well, last I've heard from my people is that the --nosound (or equiv) for the apps takes care of the situation. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tuxpaint/+bug/269082 has the latest from me and others.. not sure whether the Intrepid patch (in bug comments) made it into hardy or not though.
[00:29] <nubae> cool done...
[00:29] <nubae> right but fixing with sounds I meant
[00:30] <Lns> nubae: no update on that unfortunately
[00:30] <nubae> cant really use childsplay gcompris without sound
[00:31] <LaserJock> nubae: if you go into the edubuntu.jaunty dir there are a number of files
[00:31] <nubae> LaserJock: u think addon-legacy makes any sense?
[00:31] <LaserJock> those are the seeds
[00:31] <LaserJock> it did at the time :-)
[00:32] <nubae> ok, those files look surprisingly simple
[00:33] <LaserJock> nubae: so if we want to update what goes in edubuntu-desktop we just change the right seed
[00:34] <LaserJock> there are some complexities when it comes to dependencies, etc. but it's pretty straightforward
[00:34] <nubae> gotcha... whats it mean if its in brakets?
[00:35] <LaserJock> nubae: where do you see one?
[00:35] <nubae> desktop-addon
[00:36] <LaserJock> so like (gobby)
[00:37] <nubae> yep
[00:37] <LaserJock> that means to make it a Recommends instead of a Depends
[00:38] <nubae> ok
[00:38] <nubae> and these seeds only have to do with apt-get
[00:38] <nubae> not with add/remove?
[00:40] <LaserJock> nubae: well, the seeds have to do with metapackages
[00:40] <LaserJock> so apt-get, etc. are free
[00:40] <LaserJock> Add/Remove uses that .desktop mechanism
[00:41] <LaserJock> so we just need to include the proper .desktop file and it'll show up
[00:44] <nubae> ok, and where to the .desktop's get created?
[00:44] <nubae> do
[00:44] <LaserJock> we make them
[00:45] <nubae> inside specific apps packages?
[00:45] <LaserJock> they live in the packages yeah
[00:45] <LaserJock> but for our bundle we put it in the metapacakge
[00:45] <LaserJock> *metapackage
[00:46] <LaserJock> and strictly our metapackage ceases to be a metapackage, but that's just a detail :-)
[00:46] <nubae> where can I see an example of that?
[00:47] <LaserJock> of a .desktop?
[00:47] <nubae> yeah, inside metapackage
[00:47] <LaserJock> well, for Add/Remove they all live in /usr/share/app-install/desktop/
[00:48] <LaserJock> I have something like 2k of them on my machine, I'm sure there are plenty of good examples :-)
[00:48] <nubae> but in the source
[00:49] <nubae> sorry if these are silly questions, just want to get my head around it properly
[00:50] <LaserJock> nubae: doesn't matter where it is in the source really
[00:51] <LaserJock> nubae: if you want to see an example of how this all works you can have a look at the edubuntu-addon-meta source package
[00:51] <LaserJock> apt-get source edubuntu-addon-meta
[00:51] <ogra_> LaserJock, you touch the seeds ?
[00:52] <ogra_> if you do so, can you drop kpercentage from the seeds ?
[00:52] <ogra_> seems it's NBS
[00:52] <nubae> lots of stuff needs to be dropped, like thin-client-manager
[00:53] <LaserJock> ogra_: it seems I will be touching the seeds, I can do kpercentage now though
[00:54] <ogra_> great, thanks
[00:54] <ogra_> nubae, hm, i though i dropped that an aeon ago
[00:54] <ogra_> when we added italc iirc
[00:54] <nubae> no still in there just under italc
[00:55] <ogra_> oh, then it can go indeed
[00:57] <nubae> LaserJock: so if one theoretically wanted to create .desktop files for each sugar activity, one would copy the layout of a *.desktop.in file?
[00:58] <nubae> and it would show in add/remove
[00:59] <LaserJock> nubae: kinda yeah
[01:00] <LaserJock> ogra_: thin-client-manager-backend is still in edubuntu-desktop
[01:00] <LaserJock> we don't need that for anything, right?
[01:00] <nubae> italc replaces it
[01:02] <LaserJock> nubae: yeah, I just didn't know if -backened needed to be retained for some reason
[01:02] <nubae> LaserJock: I know you are not too keen on the idea, but could we discuss getting a set of default apps to do .desktops for sugar?
[01:03] <LaserJock> nubae: it's not that I'm not keen on it so much as it was orthogonal to the question we were working at the the time
[01:04] <LaserJock> nubae: do people generally not just install all the activities?
[01:05] <nubae> no, each additonal activity is a package
[01:05] <nubae> sugar-activities, which is the main one, contains 6 common activities, but is way too minimal for any school
[01:06] <nubae> each other activity is packaged as a seperate .deb
[01:08] <LaserJock> nubae: I'm not talking about the .debs
[01:08] <LaserJock> I'm just wondering if people, in general, will want to just install all the activities
[01:09] <nubae> they will want to pick and choose
[01:09] <nubae> there is no way to install all of them
[01:09] <LaserJock> sure there is :-)
[01:09] <nubae> I mean in one easy go...
[01:10] <LaserJock> no?
[01:10] <LaserJock> why not?
[01:10] <nubae> cause u have to figure out which activity u want and then either apt-get install sugar-this-activity, or download .xo bundle from website
[01:11] <LaserJock> that's what meta-packages are for
[01:11] <LaserJock> but that's more of a all-or-nothing, hence my question about if people would like to just install all of them
[01:11] <nubae> no they wouldnt
[01:12] <nubae> reason being it would clutter up UI
[01:12] <nubae> apps go round the center XO icon... around it... u can only have a limited number before it becomes unusable
[01:12] <LaserJock> ok, that makes sense
[01:13] <LaserJock> well, then it seems like individual .desktops is the way to go
[01:13] <nubae> so what should I do to make that happen?
[01:14] <LaserJock> I don't think it's exactly inline with how Add/Remove is generally used, but I don't see better alternatives
[01:14] <LaserJock> nubae: make .desktop and get them to the Sugar Team
[01:14] <nubae> so inside the specific apps rather than the edubuntu meta packages?
[01:15] <LaserJock> nubae: yep, you'd want to put it in the source package that builds the .deb it's for
[01:19] <LaserJock> gotta run
[01:19] <LaserJock> bbiab
[16:51] <darkphader> is it better to start with kubuntu or ubuntu for the edubuntu add-on ?
[16:53] <ball> darkphader: I've been told Edubuntu uses elements of Gnome, so ubuntu might be a more natural fit.
[16:53] <darkphader> ball: thx
[16:53] <nubae> it also uses elements of kde actually
[16:53] <nubae> like kde-edu
[16:53] <ball> nubae: interesting.
[16:54] <nubae> but indeed it uses the ubuntu base, not kubuntu
[16:55] <darkphader> ok, i'll try it with ubuntu then
[16:55] <darkphader> probably work with either
[17:04] <ball> For an LTSP deployment of Edubuntu, is it sensible to start with Ubuntu Server?
[17:08] <nubae> no
[17:08] <nubae> As u'll be using the desktop
[17:09] <nubae> for all users
[17:09] <nubae> so start with edubuntu-desktop
[17:10] <ball> Hmm... okay.
[17:10] <ball> thanks.
[17:16] <ball> hello LaserJock
[17:16] <LaserJock> hi ball
[17:16] <nubae> greets LaserJock
[17:16]  * LaserJock sucks down some Diet Coke Lime to start the day
[17:19] <LaserJock> yuck, that tasted kinda like nasty cough syrup
[17:23] <nubae> hmmm
[17:23]  * nubae just found this: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/
[17:24] <LaserJock> uh oh
[17:27] <nubae> uh oh?
[17:27] <ball> I could do with a pint of cough syrup now.
[17:28] <LaserJock> nubae: the School Advocacy doc was originally written for Edgy
[17:28] <LaserJock> nubae: it's been updated some, but it's certainly not up to Hardy/Intrepid
[17:29] <nubae> would it be a good base? or is the edubuntu handbook better?
[17:30] <LaserJock> I think the handbook took from the School Advocacy doc
[17:31] <LaserJock> I think it went Cookbook -> Advocacy -> Handbook, but not necessarily in a linear fashion
[17:32] <ball> Adaptive Radiation
[17:32] <nubae> lol
[17:36] <LaserJock> nubae: I think you should consider what kind of document you want to create
[17:36] <LaserJock> nubae: if you want it to be a "help" doc or a "intro" doc
[17:37] <nubae> I dunno, right now I'm adding all the sugar activities to the edubuntu apps spreadsheet
[17:37] <nubae> I spoke to the sugar guys and they'll add the .desktop files to their sources
[17:37] <nubae> so for Jaunty we can at least have something functional
[17:38] <nubae> I dont think we need a help doc... more an intro doc
[17:38] <nubae> and a listing of the apps
[17:39] <LaserJock> we should have some sort of program to do the app list I think, eventually
[17:40] <nubae> from the packages u mean?
[17:40] <nubae> or from the seeds..
[17:41] <LaserJock> seeds I think
[17:41] <nubae> but the descriptions are in the apps themselves right?
[17:42] <LaserJock> yep
[17:43] <LaserJock> I wonder if we could rip off the Debian Blends task lists
[17:43] <LaserJock> that might be nice
[17:44] <darkphader> after ubuntu install, should it be updated before adding edubuntu ? or add edubuntu and then update ?
[17:46] <LaserJock> darkphader: doesn't reall matter I don't think
[17:46] <LaserJock> I'd probably add Edubuntu first then update
[17:47] <LaserJock> nubae: check out http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/
[17:48] <nubae> does that assume that all the packages are in debian=?
[17:49] <LaserJock> nubae: I'm saying we could copy that for Edubuntu
[17:53] <ball> hello ogra
[17:53] <nubae> I don't understand, u mean create a ubuntu pure blend?
[17:54] <LaserJock> nubae: no, use the scripts they use to generate those pages and adapt them for our use
[17:57] <LaserJock> although we are kinda like an Ubuntu pure blend :-)
[17:58] <nubae> heh yeah, some of the other debian pure blends like junior and science dont actually have descriptions
[17:58] <nubae> I guess thats done on the webside though... the scripting
[17:59] <ball> ...by small monkeys who live in the Web server
[17:59] <nubae> right :-)
[17:59] <nubae> with little wrenches
[18:00] <ball> hello RichEd
[18:00]  * ball sighs
[18:01] <LaserJock> nubae: but it's an automatic way to generate decent lists of apps
[18:01] <RichEd> hi ball ... why the sigh ?
[18:01] <RichEd> hi LaserJock , nubae
[18:02] <ball> RichEd: lot on plate. Lots of things to do (incl. learn Edubuntu) and very little time in which to do any of it.
[18:02] <nubae> greets RichEd
[18:02] <nubae> I just added the sugar activities that work and are packaged in ubuntu to the ubuntu-edu-apps spreadsheet
[18:02] <nubae> shall I send it your way?
[18:03] <ball> Does Sugar require a huge screen?
[18:03] <LaserJock> RichEd: has Canonical ever thought about including the Edu stuff in their certificatino/training courses?
[18:03] <RichEd> nubae: yes please ... richard@ubuntu.com
[18:03] <nubae> it should be dynamic...
[18:03] <nubae> but the screen size is set to 1200x900 for about 30% of the apps
[18:03] <nubae> hardcoded for the XOs
[18:04] <nubae> but its all changing now as Sugar labs is independent now
[18:04] <ball> Independent of olpc?
[18:04] <nubae> yes totally
[18:04] <ball> (is that where it started?)
[18:04] <nubae> not even funded anymore by them
[18:04] <RichEd> LaserJock: there does not seem to be enough will/budget/motivation for education organisations to pay for training ... so there is no value proposition for investment in edu training
[18:05] <ball> Interesting.
[18:05] <ball> RichEd: that's a shame.
[18:05] <ball> What's the channel for talk of Ubuntu certification?
[18:05] <RichEd> remember that Canonical do not do training, it is all done by Training Providers & the training providers charge "per bum in seat" rates that are beyond edu tolerances
[18:06] <nubae> yeah... olpc still uses the sugar ui and will do for the forseeable future.. but who knows what will happen with the windows move...
[18:06] <LaserJock> RichEd: you'd think for large deployements it might be worth it, but yeah, I suppose they want a great OS free and everybody to know how to use it for free
[18:06] <RichEd> LaserJock: on the certification side ... where do you feel that edu is not covered in current certification
[18:06] <nubae> RichEd: did u get my message yesterday about certifying netbooks to work with edubuntu/ubuntu?
[18:06] <LaserJock> I don't know a ton on the cert
[18:07] <LaserJock> but LTSP isn't covered is it
[18:08] <RichEd> LaserJock: that's a point (LTSP) we have been itching for a large OEM (dell / hp) to build an appliance LTSP server and get it certified ... I think that would be a marker winner, especially if thjey sold it with a remote support biundle option
[18:08] <LaserJock> maybe a school would just look for a Ubuntu Certified person and not worry about anything edu specific
[18:08] <RichEd> LaserJock: the Georgia deployment of Kubuntu is the best example of your "free" comment above ... as follows
[18:08] <RichEd> requirement: free OS on desktop
[18:08] <RichEd> requirement: free OS on server
[18:08] <RichEd> requirement: commercial support must be available
[18:08] <ball> Georgia the country, or the state in the U.S?
[18:09] <RichEd> ball: the rugby playing nation that is playing mini-cold-war with the Russians ;)
[18:09] <ball> Is there a Georgian translation of Ubuntu then?
[18:10] <RichEd> BUT ... despite the *need* to have commericial support available, they have not taken up any support
[18:10] <nubae> probably cant afford it :-)
[18:10] <RichEd> it is a "prudent OS decision" that support must be available, but only to have available if the whole network catches alight ... small fires are dealt with using their own skills
[18:10] <LaserJock> RichEd: question from the Georgia thing, how much is the demand for Edu on Kubuntu?
[18:11] <LaserJock> RichEd: well, thats sort of why I wondered if Canonical would get into the "give the skills to deal with the small fire" game
[18:11] <RichEd> LaserJock: they install the whole edu-app-bundle ... but Ku is the local linux flavour people are used to
[18:12] <RichEd> LaserJock: Canonical has made the desktop training manual available for free to any edu organisation, and they are allowed to use it for training *provided* that there is no charge beyond that required to cover incedental costs of training
[18:13] <LaserJock> RichEd: we have edubuntu-desktop-kde but I'm not sure it's very maintainable
[18:13] <LaserJock> I wondered if a KDE "bundle" would be useful
[18:13] <LaserJock> or if people really don't care too much, they just install stuff
[18:13] <RichEd> LaserJock: my take on this is that kde need to take care of this ... we (edubuntu) provide the working apps ... they need to do the flavour change#
[18:14] <LaserJock> well, but whether an app works or not depends on the environment
[18:14] <LaserJock> in some cases anyway
[18:14] <LaserJock> it's not quite as simple as "if the app works on Gnome it's good to go"
[18:14] <LaserJock> or vice versa
[18:15] <LaserJock> you can throw Xubuntu in there too
[18:15] <LaserJock> we get quite a few "Will Edubuntu work on Xubuntu?" questions in here
[18:15] <RichEd> LaserJock: if the app works on Gnome its good to go on Ubuntu ... Kubuntu tailoring (like replacing all the C's with K's) is an internal Ku requirement ;)
[18:16] <LaserJock> I'm not sure I exactly follow that
[18:16] <RichEd> ball: not being ab le to afford it is a high level take ... but rather see it this way ... $ 250 per year for a desktop support contract per seat, or $ 250 per year (x 20 seats per classroom) to spend on internal teacher training or support training ... where would *you* advise them to spend the money ?
[18:16] <LaserJock> you're saying that Canonical's Kubuntu people will make sure it works?
[18:17] <RichEd> Canonical's Kubuntu people & community need to make sure it works ... and come to us for specific help, or ask us to provide links to our upstream
[18:17] <LaserJock> why should they care about our apps though?
[18:18] <RichEd> Kubuntu users are "clients" of Kubuntu no ?
[18:18] <LaserJock> if we're the "Edu" people shouldn't we care that educational apps work everwhere?
[18:18] <LaserJock> I wouldn't say clients
[18:18] <LaserJock> but sorta
[18:18] <nubae> or at least the supported ones in main/universe
[18:18] <LaserJock> Kubuntu takes care of what Kubuntu ships
[18:18] <LaserJock> no more
[18:18] <LaserJock> Kubuntu is not responsible for gcompris
[18:18] <RichEd> not being harsh ... just how far do we bend from Ubuntu ... Kubuntu, Xubuntu, WaddawaddaFluBuntu, RedChinaBuntu ?
[18:18] <ball> RichEd: I'd have them keep the teachers, buy textbooks etc.
[18:19] <LaserJock> RichEd: we don't have to do all of them
[18:19] <LaserJock> RichEd: but if there's significant interest in Kubuntu and Xubuntu it might be in our best interest to look into it
[18:19] <RichEd> but if one of the  Kubuntu, Xubuntu, WaddawaddaFluBuntu, RedChinaBuntu come to us for specific qualified assistance ... we will help ... just we can't be as proactive if we have limityed resources
[18:19] <LaserJock> granted
[18:20] <LaserJock> but we could also poke them about it too
[18:20] <LaserJock> "heah, can somebody in your team use the Ubuntu Education CD and give it a test"
[18:20] <RichEd> try this for size: kubuntu edu people are welcome in this channel ... but should we be monitoring #kubuntu ?
[18:20] <LaserJock> no
[18:21] <RichEd> LaserJock: it would be great for Kubuntu community to elect an education person who stayed in touch with us, especially around release time
[18:21] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure that ignoring the large populations of people who use Kubuntu is a great idea either
[18:21] <RichEd> that's worth inviting Kubuntu and Xubuntu to do ?
[18:21] <LaserJock> I'm just thinking that if we're supposed to be the Education people in Ubuntu we should think about *all* of Ubuntu
[18:22] <ball> I like Xubuntu
[18:22] <ball> ...at least, for the brief period that I got to try it.
[18:22] <nubae> another layer of complication.. really?
[18:22] <LaserJock> if we need to throw some extra packages on the Education CD to make it work with Kubuntu and Xubuntu I'm all for it
[18:22] <RichEd> granted ... but I'd think the invite them to take a "shared interest" is as far as we can go with the limited sweat power we have
[18:23] <LaserJock> I'm not gonna spend time testing it, but it's worth putting out there
[18:23] <RichEd> LaserJock: do you think they should maybe file a spec ?
[18:24] <ball> I suppose a helpful thing is that Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu all have X11, so there's commonality there.
[18:24] <ball> ...I'm sure Gnome and Kde have different UI conventions.
[18:24] <RichEd> what happens now if someone installs onoe or more edu apps on kubuntu ... does it not pull in the required dependencies ?
[18:24] <ball> Xubuntu may be all over the place, I don't know.
[18:25] <ball> ...but at least things should /run/
[18:25] <RichEd> or are you taking about providing what we do around add/remove as kubuntu slickness as well ?
[18:25] <RichEd> (re edu CD)
[18:26] <nubae> who maintains the kde-edu stuff?
[18:26] <LaserJock> RichEd: individual apps can be installed
[18:26] <LaserJock> but you're gonna need the internet
[18:26] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu Education CD will only provide an internet-less install for Ubuntu
[18:27] <LaserJock> which isn't realy bad, just something that people need to be aware of
[18:27] <LaserJock> the edubuntu-desktop package is pretty heavily Gnome-centric
[18:27] <RichEd> LaserJock: ^ so note that for large edu deployments (al la Georgia) the edu dept builds one std image ... and ghosts / clones ... so the big playas can get what they need onto the Kubuntu desktop
[18:27] <LaserJock> gpaint instead of krita, etc.
[18:27] <LaserJock> nubae: Kubuntu does essentiall
[18:27] <LaserJock> +y
[18:28] <ball> Do I need the Education CD to get the full benefit of Edubuntu, or can I "sudo apt-get edubuntu-desktop" and get the lot?
[18:28] <nubae> just apt-get it
[18:28] <RichEd> LaserJock: krita ^ great point ... to show why *we* can't sort it out from our side and that the requests and direction need to come from Kubuntu
[18:28] <ball> nubae: thanks
[18:28] <nubae> the cd is essentialls just for people with slow or no internet connection
[18:29] <RichEd> how do we know that krita will be the paint program in Kubuntu Jaunty ?
[18:29] <LaserJock> RichEd: because it's the only one they got? :-)
[18:29] <nubae> I doubt it would replace gimp
[18:29] <RichEd> what if we get it bundled onto our edu CD and they have moved to Kairbrushsplodge ?
[18:29] <LaserJock> RichEd: well, then we should know about it
[18:30] <LaserJock> we don't live in a vacumn here
[18:30] <LaserJock> we're all one big happy family (or at least that's what people say)
[18:30] <RichEd> LaserJock: from research, or attending every Kubuntu UDS session, or from "hey Edu guys, please help us get an edu version going with this spec"
[18:31] <RichEd> methinks the latter is the most sane
[18:31] <LaserJock> I don't want specs
[18:31] <ball> I want cake.
[18:31] <LaserJock> specs are overkill and other issues
[18:31] <LaserJock> one thing we can do is open better communications
[18:31] <RichEd> LaserJock: spec / list / request / relationship / email ... point is that it needs to be initiaited
[18:31] <LaserJock> sure
[18:32] <LaserJock> and I think we should initiate
[18:32] <LaserJock> see if there's some interest there
[18:32] <RichEd> LaserJock: riddell used to hang out here to keep an eye out ...  is he usually aound lately ?
[18:32] <LaserJock> I don't think here
[18:32] <LaserJock> I think we need to build that relationship a bit
[18:32]  * RichEd invites LaserJock to scrol back to my "invite" comments way back at the top of the page#
[18:33] <LaserJock> right
[18:33] <LaserJock> I just think we might need to be a bit more proactive
[18:33] <LaserJock> rather than just waiting for people to show up
[18:33]  * RichEd hands ball some "have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too" version 0.3 beta
[18:33] <LaserJock> there are a couple small things we could do to maybe get some things going
[18:34] <LaserJock> one thing would be to write up a Kubuntu-based test case for the ISO tracker
[18:34] <LaserJock> make sure that our apps do infact work on Kubuntu
[18:34] <LaserJock> if they don't we can figure out who to task it with (is it a KDE problem or an app problem)
[18:34] <RichEd> LaserJock: perhaps we should have a "friends of education" meeting once as month and invite sugar/xubuntu/ubuntu and upstream etc. ?
[18:34] <LaserJock> maybe
[18:34] <LaserJock> I gotta run
[18:34] <LaserJock> meeting with advisor
[18:35] <LaserJock> keep talking if you want and I'll read scrollback
[18:35] <RichEd> so they attend 1 a month ... not miss 4 a month
[18:35] <ball> My cake just dumped core.
[18:35]  * RichEd invites ball to reboot his cake
[18:35] <RichEd> and remove the "icing and cherry
[18:35] <RichEd> that module is unstable
[18:36] <ball> Okay, seriously.  LPIC-1 looks affordable and should help my career a lot.... wonder if I should take a course for that.
[18:36]  * RichEd needs power ... for my notebook ... and coffee for my brain
[18:37] <RichEd> ball: if you have serious questions about linux/ubuntu certification (for yourself) I can put you in touch with our training manager
[18:38] <nubae> lpic is really good, but hard
[18:38] <RichEd> ball: what country are you based in ?
[18:40] <ball> RichEd: sadly I live in the U.S.
[18:41] <ball> Well, it's mostly sad because I'm stuck here and my family is back home in Britain
[18:41] <ball> ...except for the Canadian fork
[18:44] <ball> ...I suppose we've become the U.S. fork.
[18:44] <ball> Need to send someone to Australia next I think.
[18:44] <ball> hello Sir_Remoz
[18:45] <Sir_Remoz> hi penguins (and not) :P
[18:46] <ball> I wonder if I'm a daemon.
[18:46]  * ball <- BSD user
[18:55] <RichEd> ball: well regarding your sadly location comment ... perhaps my obama will restore some of your (and the rest of the world's) faith in what has become the Untied States of America
[18:55] <RichEd> no more Bush ... D-30-something and counting
[18:56] <ball> RichEd: That was definitely a step in the right direction so far as I'm concerned... not so much because he's black (though that's important), but because he's educated and intelligent and seems to genuinely care.
[18:57] <ball> ...not that I get to vote for anyone over here.
[18:58] <ball> I got distracted.  Linux certification from uiuc.edu, via O'Reilly, US$ 1,194 +ehft
[18:58] <RichEd> class.president {requirement [brain] (working)} recommended upgrade waiting to install
[18:58] <ball> Then there's LPI and CompTIA
[19:09] <ball> Does Linux keep its bash shell in /bin/bash ?
[19:12] <stgraber>  /bin/sh is usually a symlink to the default shell
[19:13] <stgraber> in ubuntu it's dash
[19:15] <ball> right, but for a bash script he should write #!/bin/bash, right?
[19:18] <stgraber> if it needs some bash-specific function yes
[19:18] <stgraber> we tend not to do so though
[19:18] <stgraber> as bashisms only make things harder to maintain
[19:23] <ball> stgraber: it's funny, I've just written my friend an email saying basically the same thing.
[19:25] <ball> I advised him to use Bourne syntax where possible (and #!/bin/sh), but to make sure that if he uses extensions that are specific to bash, to remember to change his #! to /bin/bash
[19:25] <ball> Hopefully that's right on Linux.
[19:25] <ball> brb
[19:26] <sbalneav> For the XBox people out there:
[19:26] <sbalneav> http://www.halolz.com/2008/11/11/achievement-unlocked-become-president/
[20:11] <LaserJock> ok, back from meetings
[20:13] <LaserJock> dang, I'm feeling old
[20:14] <LaserJock> just read an article in the school newspaper about the "study drug" that's all the rage
[20:14] <LaserJock> I thought it was coffee and coke
[20:15] <LaserJock> but apparently there's this ADHD drug that kids are taking these days
[20:17] <nubae> which one?
[20:18] <LaserJock> Adderall or something like that
[20:20] <ball> Ugh.
[20:20] <LaserJock> I knew kids were drinking unhealthy amounts of Red Bull, etc.
[20:21] <LaserJock> but illegal drug abuse just to cram for finals seems like a real problem
[20:21] <LaserJock> having been at university for 10 years ... it's not worth it :-)
[20:21]  * ball has finals next week.  Chamomile tea is on my list.
[20:24] <ball> I wonder what schools will be like when my daughter gets to high school.
[20:27] <RichEd> ball: or when high school gets to your daughter ... brick & mortar may be less relevant than now ;)
[20:28] <RichEd> LaserJock: "coffee or coke" or "coffee and coke" ;)
[20:30] <LaserJock> RichEd: *or*
[20:31] <LaserJock> RichEd: get any mvo time?
[20:32] <RichEd> LaserJock: lunch date homefully
[20:33] <RichEd> hopefully#
[20:33] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok, just ping me
[20:48] <ball> I have to go, I've just been given a problem to solve in ten minutes :-(
[22:42] <RichEd> hi HedgeMage
[22:42] <RichEd> LaserJock: just finished with mvo ... green lights all roumd
[22:43] <RichEd> *round
[22:43] <RichEd> seen this: http://appnr.com/package/kstars
[22:50] <HedgeMage> hi, RichEd
[22:51] <LaserJock> RichEd: what does "green lights all round" mean?
[22:52] <RichEd> mvo is happy with the approach we want to take for the creation of education bundles for installation under add-remove
[22:52] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-preschool
[22:52] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-primary / secondary / terrtiary
[22:52] <RichEd> etc.
[22:53] <RichEd> one click select, brings down a chunk of edu apps that are classified under that category
[22:53] <LaserJock> RichEd: so does he know what he needs to do? did you talk specific technical bits?
[22:54] <RichEd> yep ... he said he can assist with the programming needed to bring the bundles to the top of the education menu
[22:55] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok, coolio
[22:55] <RichEd> for now (until we have other bundles - like ubuntu-icafe ubuntu-financial) we keep it under education
[22:55] <LaserJock> RichEd: do you want me to finish off the spec then with all the tech bits?
[22:56] <RichEd> standard metapackage approach ... he will ensure that / assist with stitching the metapackage approach into add-remove
[22:57] <RichEd> edubuntu project is responsible for creating and maintaining the metapackage(s)
[22:57] <LaserJock> all I need is the bundle-floating, getting them *into* Add/Remove is trivial
[22:58] <LaserJock> so he'll need the names of the metapackages and/or .desktop files and he can hack that in
[22:59] <RichEd> also, he has no objection to assisting you with the longer term / pet project menu based on group of logged in user ... he said he has dpne some stuff around that and would be keen to be in the loop
[22:59] <LaserJock> excellent
[23:01] <nubae> coolness ie. preschool, primary, secondary, etc
[23:06] <RichEd> nubae: do these classifications work for germany / austria as well ?
[23:07] <RichEd> (there is quice a difference country to country, so we need generalised terms
[23:07] <nubae> yeah its the same, as long as we don't use the terms higher
[23:08] <nubae> thats an American thing I believe
[23:09] <RichEd> this is what we would use as a high level descriptor:
[23:09] <RichEd> Pre-school   [ Early Learning ]
[23:09] <RichEd> Primary      [ K1 – K7  ]
[23:09] <RichEd> Secondary    [ K8 – K12 ]	
[23:09] <RichEd> Tertiary     [ College / University ]
[23:09] <RichEd> with packages called:
[23:09] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-primary
[23:10] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-secondary
[23:10] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-tertiary
[23:10] <RichEd> ubuntu-edu-preschool
[23:11] <nubae> yeah thats fine... the K stuff makes no sense here, but otherwise its great
[23:13] <RichEd> nubae: yep ... but K is sort of spreading around the world ... here in .za we have Grade 1 - Grade 12
[23:13] <RichEd> it used to be: Class 1 Class 2 Standard 1 -> Standard 10
[23:13] <nubae> in uk schools they use year 1, 2... 12
[23:14] <nubae> standard? wierd...
[23:14] <RichEd> so Grade 2 = K2 = Year 2 ... a teacher should catch on to that
[23:14] <nubae> yseah
[23:14] <nubae> RichEd: u are also in za?
[23:15] <RichEd> so between the primary / secondary and xyz 1 there is enough clue to get a grip
[23:16] <RichEd> nubae: for the moment just at UDS in .us in CA ... haven't quite mastered the duality thing,;)  but normally based in Cape Town sunny south africa
[23:16] <nubae> nice
[23:19] <LaserJock> RichEd: regarding that appnr thing, that's pretty much exactly what I want to have for Ubuntu Education
[23:20] <nubae> did u take a look at the spreadsheet I sent u, I have to set up various non xos with sugar in Graz (Austria) on Tuesday and would like to tell them we (ubuntu-edu) will support them with sugar activities
[23:20] <LaserJock> and you can just click on the link to install, just like what we were talking about
[23:20] <nubae> ?
[23:22] <LaserJock> nubae: have a look at http://appnr.com/package/kstars
[23:23] <nubae> oooh nice, is that an example how all edu apps will look?
[23:26] <LaserJock> nubae: that's a 3rd party website somebody made
[23:27] <nubae> well seems perfect...
[23:27] <LaserJock> but quite a bit of work
[23:29] <LaserJock> well, it's not *so* much work if you are a web-app programmer
[23:29] <LaserJock> the description, etc. is taken from the packages themselves
[23:29] <nubae> it seems quite complete to me
[23:30] <nubae> I just tried etoys though and it doesnt work...
[23:30] <LaserJock> so there's really no data they had to write themselves, which is handy
[23:30] <LaserJock> nubae: I'm guessing it only takes part of the archive + some 3rd party repos
[23:31] <LaserJock> it says it has 1878
[23:31] <LaserJock> we have something like 20k total packages
[23:31] <nubae> I guess we want to look at the scripts... though if we dont have control over the server....
[23:32] <LaserJock> we need a web team :-)
[23:34] <LaserJock> and here's the Debian Edu package listing: http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/edu/tasks/
[23:36] <nubae> I see an issue here if something isn't really update and supported though...
[23:36] <nubae> it could make it look pretty bad...
[23:37] <LaserJock> well, I think it's important to be real with people
[23:37] <LaserJock> I think it's really bad to think a program is gonna be really cool and nice, then install it only to find it's a piece of junk
[23:38] <LaserJock> that's basically why we have Main
[23:39] <nubae> right I agree
[23:39] <nubae> but thats not that obvious from those sites
[23:40] <nubae> I wouldn't want my teachers to be installing 'crap'
[23:41] <LaserJock> right
[23:41] <LaserJock> that's why I think we need to pick what goes on the site
[23:41] <LaserJock> and why I don't think the bundles should necessarily contain *every* package that fits the category
[23:41] <nubae> agreed
[23:42] <nubae> so where do we go from here?
[23:43] <LaserJock> good question :-)
[23:44] <LaserJock> I wonder if it'd be a good idea to wiki'ize RichEd's list
[23:44] <LaserJock> and let people comment, etc.
[23:44] <nubae> like do a rating?
[23:44] <LaserJock> I don't know that we need a rating
[23:44] <nubae> thats why moodle would be so good, but I'll shut up about that now :-)
[23:45] <LaserJock> just "yeah, that one's crap" or "what, you guys forgot ...!"
[23:45] <LaserJock> nubae: moodle's not exactly out of the question
[23:45] <nubae> I thought it was...a moodle instance
[23:45] <LaserJock> nubae: we'd just need a moodle server and somebody to admin it
[23:45] <LaserJock> well, it can't be on edubuntu.org
[23:46] <nubae> oh. then no point
[23:46] <LaserJock> but for now we could perhaps host it somewhere else
[23:46] <nubae> unless its edubunu.org/moodle, I see no point
[23:47] <LaserJock> why?
[23:47] <nubae> but anyway, I'll volunteer to put up the apps in edubuntu.org itself... I think thats where they need to be, its the point of entry
[23:47] <nubae> its the point of entry... putting them elsewhere is senseless
[23:48] <LaserJock> you can link wherever you want from a point of entry
[23:48] <LaserJock> and I wasn't seeing that as the permanent home or anything
[23:48] <nubae> thats true, but why do u think putting the docs on ubuntu.com and not edubuntu.org is a bad idea?
[23:48] <LaserJock> once we get the intial bundles done then we won't need it really
[23:49] <LaserJock> what docs? do you mean doc.ubuntu.com?
[23:49] <nubae> yeah, I am agreeing with you I think it should all be under edubuntu.org
[23:49] <LaserJock> right right, we will
[23:50] <LaserJock> I'm just saying in trying to figure out the intial bundles it doesn't matter where we put it
[23:50] <nubae> ok so for now, why not manually, and alread under edubuntu.org, its not so difficult... how many edu apps we got?
[23:51] <LaserJock> not sure
[23:51] <LaserJock> we can surely do it manually right now
[23:51] <LaserJock> what I'm talking about is sort of a different topic
[23:51] <LaserJock> I'm just to figure out what apps *to* have not what we *do* have
[23:51] <LaserJock> *just trying
[23:52] <nubae> but u still think those should be manually verified right?
[23:52] <LaserJock> yeah
[23:52] <nubae> then we just need to agree to go through them and put them up
[23:53] <LaserJock> we could throw up a simple list of what apps are on the CD no problem
[23:53] <LaserJock> I'd like to think about how we want it to look though a little bit
[23:53] <nubae> fine so lets discuss that... what are your thoughts?
[23:55] <LaserJock> well, it should be pretty easy to look at
[23:55] <LaserJock> so we don't want a lot of content
[23:56] <LaserJock> I'm thinking like 2 columns
[23:56] <LaserJock> with headings for pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary maybe?
[23:56] <nubae> right
[23:57] <LaserJock> use the icon from the app, the name, and then a short description
[23:58] <LaserJock> we need to have a page for each release, for now just Hardy and Intrepid
[23:58] <LaserJock> nubae: makes sense?
[23:58] <nubae> yep
[23:59] <LaserJock> you feeling up to the task?
[23:59] <nubae> yeah that was what I was thinking
[23:59] <nubae> I'd like to think about Jaunty to though... ie what's coming...