[17:27] nubae: around? [17:37] yep [17:38] nubae: have a look at http://education.zdnet.com/?p=1995 [17:39] hmmm [17:40] are u saying we should carry the wine apps in edubuntu too? [17:40] nubae: I'm not saying anything :-) [17:41] I just thought of you when I read that [17:41] shows that people are thinking about it anyway [17:41] lol :-) Well I think its a great way to migrate users permanently to linux... [17:42] if Ubuntu puts it in by default then we don't have to do any work [17:42] we get it for free [17:42] we could list something on the website with a link to the edu wine apps [17:42] yeah would be cool [17:43] something like, You can run your old windows stuff on edubuntu too... I know teachers would be happy with something like tha [17:43] nubae: I think perhaps getting people involved in testing Windows edu apps in wine would be then a worthwhile effort [17:43] the wine app DB has quite a large list of Edu apps but I'm not sure how well tested they are [17:43] yeah indeed [17:44] but for instance, in my Chemistry department we have 1 lab where we use Logger Pro [17:44] I've seen it often enough that a school cannot make the leap because of 1 or 2 pieces of software that they must run on windows... [17:44] right now we use a pile of Dell laptops (kinda big and very very unreliable) [17:45] if we could instead use netbooks with Ubuntu/Wine I think it'd be much better [17:45] agreed... well the good thing about the netbooks is that Canonical seems to be showing interest to certify them [17:46] the HP and Dells are now certified for Ubuntu Hardy [17:46] an important step in wide adoption for schools [17:47] hey u know what a good layout web app is for ubuntu.. I use bluefish for code, but need something to layout tables [17:47] the important thing is many many schools is that they are locked in to certain programs [17:47] nubae: after doing everything in your fat client tutorial, the fat clients won't boot [17:47] interested in reviewing dhpcd.conf? [17:47] Ahmuck: I looked at your dhcpd.conf file [17:48] was it wrong? [17:48] please make sure its exactly like the sample [17:48] yeah [17:48] like in my labs the lab manuals are written for Logger Pro, having to change that all isn't something profs are going to want to do [17:48] ok, i'll try again [17:48] before anything else though... just change the original dhcpd.conf [17:48] and change the instances of i386 to fati386 [17:48] nubae: I don't know what would work well for table layout :( [17:48] k. it'll be about 30 minutes b4 i can do that [17:49] LaserJock: I guess I'll have to use wine+dreamweaver ;-) [17:49] ugg [17:49] I know [17:49] * LaserJock is not a dreamweaver fan [17:49] i would test windows edu apps in ltsp [17:49] but it's been years since I used it last so I don't know [17:49] maybe it's better [17:49] * nubae is not a windows fan either [17:50] without windows apps in ltsp, it doesn't work for our area. our schools have some testing and some measuring programs they are required to use [17:50] it layouts out visually, and the other choices are not even choices [17:50] Ahmuck: yeah you're not the only one, I think listing which commonly used apps in schools work, would be of great value [17:51] LaserJock: u know where we could get a list like that? is it the same across US schools? [17:51] nubae: kompozer? or seamonkey ? [17:51] I can do it for German and Spanish speaking countries, as I know more or less what they need that they are tied into [17:51] oh yeah, I'll give kompozer a whirl [17:51] nubae: each school district and university is likely to do their own thing [17:52] gosh, no standards? [17:52] :-) [17:52] for universities, none [17:52] well, our target is more schools, right? [17:52] for school districts there might be some at the state and maybe a few at the fedral level but I doubt much [17:52] nubae: our target is "Education" [17:53] presently schools are definately more the focus [17:53] well at least starting with those would be a way to counter the 'I can't migrate cause I need a chem app that works, and the ones we are allowed to use are windows apps' [17:53] is wine a security risk? [17:53] Ahmuck: apparently it's only a risk to itself [17:54] that's to say, wine can get viruses within the environment, but that can't hurt the rest of the OS [17:54] more importantly, one of my issues is with wine from the admin side is install once, run many. to taylor every user login to run wine is counterproductive. doing so doesn't save one time over a standard windows installation [17:54] Ahmuck: how do you mean? [17:55] i think i could get a list of windows apps from our local schools [17:55] Ahmuck: do you mean it's hard to set up each user with wine? [17:56] no, difficult to taylor to the individual? [17:56] or set an icon on every desktop at once? [17:56] what crossover does [17:56] but wine-doors does that for you Ahmuck [17:56] I wonder if sabayon would be useful [17:56] it has the bottles set up for all the apps and u just hit install [17:56] from a gui [17:56] so you basically set up different Wine profiles [17:57] yeah each app has its profile, but it just makes it system wide and really easy to install with preset profiles downloaded from some database [17:57] its actually a very neat piece of software [17:58] http://www.wine-doors.org/wordpress/ [17:58] with wine in ltsp, could you configure app A for classroom 1 and app B for classrom 2? [17:58] i've seen winedoors [17:59] Ahmuck: that would require sabayon/pessulus [17:59] cause then u are editting the menus... or maybe gnome-menu-manager? [17:59] I think sabayon, I don't think pessulus could do it [17:59] I always use the 2 together [17:59] one for profiles, the other for locking down [18:00] but since wine is just a dir in ~/ I think you could use sabayon (if sabayon worked) to drop in Wine "profiles" [18:01] nubae: I wonder if it's necessary to have pessulus if you have sabayon [18:01] pessulus runs inside sabayon [18:02] right, but do you have to have pessulus installed to use it? [18:02] wine-doors says this: Allow users to manage their windows applications with profiles and bottles [18:02] I haven't played with it much, but sabayon has a copy of pessulus' code in its source tree so I wonder [18:03] I always install both, maybe not [18:03] it would be so nice for someone to fix that up [18:03] I think its so useful [18:03] sabayon? or both? [18:04] well depending, both if they are needed to lockdown [18:04] but mostly sabayon I guess [18:04] pessulus seems to work ok [18:04] pessulus is smaller, does fewer things, and I think still maintained [18:05] sabayon is essentially dead right now [18:05] Red Hat pulled out and it just sort of died [18:05] such a damn shame [18:05] as there is no replacement [18:05] i'll take a second look at wine doors [18:05] I think getting it going again is high on my "things that should be done" list [18:06] what woudl you call it sabulus ? [18:06] what does it require? a python hacker? [18:06] or pesayon [18:06] for me in Intrepid sabayon doesn't work at all, completely broken [18:06] nubae: pretty much [18:06] nubae: it's all python [18:06] oh.. haven't tried in intrepid [18:06] there's a fair amount of code and it's not an easy thing I don't think [18:07] as there's quite a bit of Linux desktop architecture that you run into [18:07] can imagine, diving into someone else's code is already something no one really wants to do [18:07] I don't think it's quite as easy as "tar up ~/ into a profile and then untar at login" [18:08] heh, if only it was shell code [18:08] LaserJock: thx for the heads up [18:08] about it being borked. that was my next step [18:09] Ahmuck: well, if you have some time you might give it a go [18:10] I haven't tested much and I don't know if it's just me or not [18:10] we have a bug report so I don't think it's *just* me [18:10] but I think maybe it's a bit flaky [18:10] the bug report, or the app? [18:10] the app [18:11] my problem was that I couldn't create new profiles [18:11] perhaps it works fine with existing profiles [18:11] ah, i think that was my problem as well [18:11] it was crashing [18:11] yeah [18:11] yeah it randomly crashes [18:11] :( [18:11] so I can't do a lot of testing because I can't create a profile to test with :( [18:11] but I did use it successfully to create exam profiles for students [18:11] * Ahmuck going to fix dhcpd.conf now [18:14] I think it needs somebody to just really spend some time with it [18:14] not even an uber-hacker I don't think [18:14] but just trying to figure out why it keeps crashing [18:14] if sabayon could just be stabilized I think we'd really be happy [18:15] we need volunteers [18:15] I *think* Red Hat had 2-4 developers working on sabayon [18:15] now there's not really anything [18:15] maybe something like a big message on the edubuntu.org page: Please volunteer now, we need YOUR help... [18:15] there are a couple guys who are the "maintainers" but I checked the svn log [18:15] and they haven't done *anything* but translations for ~ 9 months or so [18:16] not even bug fixes [18:16] nubae: on what? [18:16] so I think that's pretty dead [18:16] Eghie: sabayon [18:17] hmmm, and now pidgin crashed [18:17] I missed the last couple lines... [18:17] Nubae: I asked on what you need volunteers [18:17] Sabayon Linux distro? [18:18] Eghie: no, the Gnome profile editor [18:18] I'm guessing Edubuntu wouldn't be looking for Sabayon Linux devs ;-) [18:19] yeah sabayon is a great piece of soft that manages profiles and desktop settings [18:19] it's python? [18:19] yes [18:19] maybe Edubuntu needs to hold some Python courses [18:20] we have a couple python projects that need work [18:20] LaserJock: is Alice python ? [18:20] some python course material would be nice. i'd teach it [18:20] sabayon, willow-ng, and a new dynamic-menu editor all need work [18:20] set students on it [18:20] that would be a way [18:21] I've manage to pack an educational windows application of mine into a .deb, which installs from my apt repository for all users (into /opt/) and runs through wine. It even shows on the "education" gnome menu. It would be great if other win-edu apps could be packaged like this... [18:21] Ahmuck: I think Alice is Java [18:22] alkisg: that's very very tricky though [18:22] LaserJock: yes, but it's really really easy for administrators! :) [18:22] alkisg: volunteering? [18:22] alkisg: documentation? [18:23] Nubae: you got any apps that can be packaged into .debs? (licensing...) [18:23] LaserJock: but necessary for high school typing teacher administrators [18:23] well, there's different issues [18:23] Ahmuck: not really, only some notes in Greek, but if anyone's interested, I may help him [18:23] I don't think we could ever *ship* Windows apps for wine [18:23] but you could make a good guide to package it though [18:23] right but we can carry scripts that download and install them [18:24] I don't think we could really even include them in our archive [18:24] no guide... scripting [18:24] scripting is indeed better [18:24] Nubae: I'm not sure we want to script it though [18:24] like the torrent sites... heh [18:24] Nubae: was the dhcpd problem because i did not have a thin client section? [18:24] LaserJock: I think .deb files that extract / copy files and generate registry entries (in wine) could be made. Of course the users would have to have the original application CD / zip / whatever. [18:24] the script is fine, but actually doing it may not be :P [18:25] alkisg: well we can set it to do it with demos [18:25] In repositories, so that they also get updates! :) [18:25] then its their problem to do the rest [18:25] well, but maintaining a script like that is *not* a trivial task [18:25] hmm, why not... scripting is relatively simple [18:25] No, not at all, registry hacking may be needed [18:25] because any little thing that goes wrong is of course our problem [18:26] we get hammered quite frequently from having Flash [18:26] (I'm talking about a single installation for all users, not each user in their own ~/.wine...) [18:26] Ahmuck-Jr: I'm not sure, dont have the dhcd.conf in front of me anymore [18:27] I think the best first step would be to have some good documentation for creating your own .deb [18:27] alkisg: but thats what wine-doors already does [18:27] Nubae: never heard of it, looking... [18:28] wine-doors.org [18:28] LaserJock: edubuntu gets hammered or LTSP [18:28] I thought it was ok on single terminals [18:28] Wow!!! Good one! [18:28] actually there is a good program that will create debs for you [18:29] Nubae: yeah, but LTSP, etc. we can actually patch, work on, etst, etc. [18:29] *test [18:30] just creating a .deb is not the problem [18:30] heh, there are lots of those [18:30] creating a .deb that does the right thing is [18:30] policies... [18:30] well, even setting aside Debian Policy [18:31] so say you have this .deb, how are you going to get it to install the app? [18:31] I once thought about using Smart for packaging, its a nice standardised pacakage manager [18:31] what messing around do you have to do to get that app all set up even after you've installed it? [18:32] I've just realised, what alkisg mentioned is in fact wine-doors, except wine-doors already has all the apps in it ready to download and install [18:33] so it would just require installing that one program [18:33] * alkisg is looking at wine-doors and is quite impressed... [18:34] (but mine used synaptic! :P) [18:35] yeak its like we'd need something like wine-doors educational [18:35] perhaps the Ubuntu Wine maintainer could give some recommendation for wine-doors [18:35] that would kinda cool, we could speak to the e [18:35] wine-doors people [18:36] I'm hesitant about such apps in general, but perhaps this one is decent [18:36] if it just lists the edu apps, it would be really helpful [18:36] no need to maintain anything extra... like heroin for the windows junkies... [18:36] a necessary evil [18:37] yeah, but we should do a pretty good review of it before recommending it to users [18:37] :-) [18:38] I've used it quite a bit... perhaps alkisg can try using it and vouch if it works good for an edu environment [18:38] most of these "convenince" apps are more harm than good [18:38] edubuntu is a convenience app too ;-) [18:38] Nubae, I surely will, teachers here do need such an app [18:38] the cd that is [18:38] no, it's not [18:39] it's doing standard things with standard processes, policies, and tools :-) [18:40] ok, then wine itself is a convenience app [18:40] it is, and is rife with problems and is only now being considered for Main [18:40] a necessary evil [18:40] it shouldn't be evil [18:41] if we want more people using edubuntu, I think its very helpful... [18:41] how can it be non-evil with what it does? [18:41] yes, the *idea* is helpful [18:41] Nubae, Laserjock: but does the installation done by wine-doors happen for all linux users, or only for the one doing the installation? [18:41] Windows apps aren't evil [18:41] it would be nice if it one could plug the windows install app in, set the license number and have winddoors install it [18:41] windows is evil, closed source is evil [18:41] some of them are the greatest apps I've ever used [18:41] it's not evil [18:41] iirc, wine doors now asks if you have a valid copy of windows [18:41] it's just not as good as open source [18:41] IMO [18:42] doesn't it? [18:42] I guess I'm more fundementalist [18:42] the last install i tried did [18:42] Nubae: probably :-) [18:42] I think closed source serves no good purpose in schools [18:42] I have no real problem using closed source apps [18:42] I think it's *better* if they open up their processes, I think it benefits everybody [18:42] and windows as an OS even less so [18:42] neither do i. the only thing that's close to ArtRage is Gogh, but i don't think gogh is bieng maintianed anymore [18:43] but I don't think they are evil for not doing so [18:43] they aren't morally wrong for not open-sourcing their software [18:43] and the defacto standard in publishing right now in press shops in indesign [18:43] MS is IMO, morally wrong for doing other things [18:43] hmmm, microsoft is unequivocally evil [18:43] i can't even get people to look at scribus [18:44] but just being closed-source isn't evil, IMO [18:44] it can make some very good sense at times [18:44] hence why we end up with things like Wine [18:44] I don't think so... anything that can be argued for closed source can be argued against far better with open source [18:45] there are some *very* good Windows apps out there that we can't compete with presently [18:45] ok, I won't say necessary evil again, cause it will make us go round in circles [18:45] only if there are people willing to write it for os [18:45] which apps? [18:45] i find a mix works great for me [18:46] Nubae: Photoshop, InDesign, lots of chemistry software I use [18:46] pffttt... Gimp [18:46] Nubae: and you can say "necessary evil" if you want, I don't mind ;-) [18:46] Scribus [18:46] pfft [18:46] both better than the closed source [18:46] Scribus is *not* Indesign [18:46] but u need to learn them of course [18:46] not even close [18:47] fine, quanta then [18:47] Scribus is very buggy [18:47] ok, buggy is part of open source [18:47] I don't know that I'd say that exactly [18:48] but there are some very real downsides to open source [18:48] it's not all just beautiful without any issues, that's my point [18:48] bugs are prevalent everywhere, but part of the ongoing process in open source, the difference is users can find them themselves and notify people [18:49] yep [18:49] I wonder what would happen if u wrote to some windows closed source app guy and said, this crashed like that and that [18:49] but it's fairly hard to get a good open-source business model [18:49] so you end up with a lot of volunteers [18:49] well, some have done it [18:49] sure [18:50] its just a new field is all I think [18:50] but I say for *most* cases it's easier to get a "1.0" release in closed-source [18:50] the business model will stabalise and mature at some point [18:50] yes, true [18:50] it's easier to manage, and in some ways less expensive to go closed-source [18:50] but thats what RHEL and its kin are for [18:51] that's my problem. scribus is not indesign [18:51] that's been a stumbling block for me [18:51] in places where you can get large numbers of volunteers I think open-source works very well [18:51] Firefox, OO.o, etc. [18:51] have u tried quanta plus? its like inkscape and scribus in one [18:52] but look at Education [18:52] yeah, moodle [18:52] :-) [18:52] we have very few quality educational programs [18:52] Moodle is THE standard in schools now across the world btw... has a huge percentage of the market [18:52] it's quite hard to get teachers to program or programmers to get interested in Educational apps [18:53] yeah, Moodle is a good example of open-source making it [18:53] I think its a problem with standards [18:53] if schools all decide to use the same soft, it will be different [18:53] I don't want all schools deciding the same software though :-) [18:54] I want individual schools to decide what works for them, it may be very different [18:54] but yeah, standardization would make it easier [18:54] sure... but a choice of jsut 2 or 3 programs per field, rather than 100 [18:54] yeah, but that's what makes open-source hard [18:55] I have a ton of chemistry software in Ubuntu [18:55] but they're mostly half-finshed junky apps [18:55] very few actually make it in terms of being a viable alternative to Windows apps [18:56] and there's really not a very good business model for open-source chemistry apps [18:56] does edubuntu have a list of alterantive software. for indesign there is this alternative, etc [18:56] it's primarily university students who do it, because they have time to give for free [18:57] Ahmuck: not really, there was a plan to do one but it never really happened [18:57] if we get our app list going we can do that [18:58] LaserJock: ur sentiments echo mine. i get osctrised for saying so though [18:58] Ahmuck: from where for saying so? [18:58] yeah apps list should be up soon, we can put in the alternatives too, I'll add that [19:16] LaserJock: everywhere [19:18] Ahmuck-Jr: that's a shame [19:19] I think one of the worst things we can do for open-source is to proclaim that it's a panacea or has no problems/cons/downsides [19:19] this be true, even though that is what it is... nothing short of a miracle [19:20] * Nubae puts on fundementalist beard again [19:20] heh [19:20] * LaserJock sends Nubae all the Launchpad bugmail [19:20] ;-) [19:22] it seems like open-source works very well if 1) there are lots and lots of people interested in the area and can contribute or 2) it's so esoteric that it's unlikely that a closed-source app would survive [19:22] right now, I agree, but things are formalising more and more [19:22] Linux itself is destined to become mainstream, I'm certain of that [19:22] in the middle ground where one can make a decent time of it via closed-source but there's not a lot of people who can/do care is where open-source really struggles [19:23] it may, I hope it does [19:23] too many companies have jumped on board for it to regress [19:23] the problem is, IMO, that in order to go mainstream Linux has to do what it's not very good at [19:24] I think it would just be relegated to geekdom :-) [19:24] but its not very good at those things because it isn't mainstream [19:24] and special-use applications like mobile phones, etc. [19:24] Nubae: exactly, chicken and egg problem [19:24] well, the egg is hatching... [19:24] we'll see [19:24] I hope so [19:25] theres an article in the latest wired... called saving Microsoft [19:25] its a sign of the times :-) [19:25] note that MS != closed-source [19:26] hmmm... for the most part it is [19:26] it's encouraging to see MS having to fight for it, perhaps they'll make better products [19:26] and quite vocal about it too [19:26] look at OS X though [19:26] right, that is a positive thing [19:26] it's got a mix of open and closed source [19:27] yeah but its not faring much better than linux at the moment, about the same speed of uptake [19:27] just because it's *nix based doesn't mean it's an open-source OS [19:27] depends on what we call the OS I suppose [19:28] I think Linux will largely mainstream *because* of closed source software, not because of open-source [19:28] *go mainstream [19:28] oh I hope not... [19:28] but if it brings it mainstream, then bring it on :-) [19:28] the economy may push more oss into the mainstream [19:29] one for price, and two because there are going to be a lot of x developers [19:29] it's things like Adobe writing Linux version, Game publishers making Linux versions that will make linux go mainstream I think [19:29] not Linux convincing Adobe and Game publishers to go open source [19:29] if we look at hollywood as a Model [19:29] a model because 98% of everything there is linux based [19:29] we see that indeed 80% of that software is closed [19:31] the problem that I see keeping Linux from mainstream is the like 10% of the time people aren't using a web browser/word processor [19:31] like I have a family member who owns a business [19:31] and she'd love to use Linux, but she needs good small business software [19:31] which currently doesn't exist, so she won't move away from MS [19:32] my father has a ballistics program he uses, that's pretty much what's keeping him back [19:32] bottom line, I'm still the only person I know that uses Linux for day-to-day usage [19:33] really, I managed both my folks to switch [19:33] perhaps eventually Wine will make it better [19:33] so I don't think it's evil ;-) [19:33] mom runs a restaurant, and Dad is a doctor... so perhaps they dont need complex stuff [19:33] but both are happily surfing and typing away in ubuntu [19:34] I'm not a very good Linux evangelist it seems :-) [19:34] I always end the conversation with "yeah, you're probably better off sticking with Windows" [19:34] depends on the usage [19:34] for a school, no way [19:35] although my brother was interested in maying getting a Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu [19:35] for my school we're still on Windows [19:35] s/school/department/ [19:35] ltsp alone sells it [19:35] at my uni the Linux labs are growing smaller [19:35] its somewhat discouraging [19:36] yeah [19:36] we haven't been able to use ltsp in my department [19:36] we'd need to have local apps [19:36] ltsp does that now [19:36] only fairly recently [19:36]