[15:24] quiet room lately [15:24] I went to a drupal training seminar last week and learned a lot [15:25] Canonical hired the person who is in charge of visual appearance (cf: mark's blog post about making Ubuntu prettier than OS X) [15:25] if you were at UDS you may have met him, his name is Julian (Hubbard may be his last name) [15:25] I were at his presentation (like everyone else), *sounds* promising [15:26] now I'm looking at the actual results [15:26] cool, I've hardly spoken with him so I'm eager to see action [15:26] there's a job post for my team for a web *designer* http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_WD/ [15:26] I have always been a bit skeptical on designers speaking a lot too much :) [15:26] in London though :-/ [15:27] designer I am not at all! [15:27] nand: the difference between Julian and most designers is that he's been given authority by Mark S [15:27] that is why I'm now eagerly waiting for the results :) [15:28] We released the module for launchpad auth in drupal [15:28] (for Drupal 5, not ready for D6) [15:28] that was last monday [15:28] yep, I have hacked it and submitted patches for a migration process [15:28] that, we really need [15:29] on the other side, the team plugin seems a bit broken, hadn't had the time to debug it yet [15:29] got locked out of my admin rights as soon as I activated it ^_^ [15:29] oh? Interesting [15:29] I've been using it on two sites very nicely, but just yesterday I too got locked out. [15:29] My guess is it just erases roles, not merge them [15:30] it does not modify the roles, yo uhave to map teams to roles [15:30] temporary solution is to log in using user uid 1 or disable the module in DB [15:30] oh, maybe not the same prob, I can't even log in as uid 1 [15:30] (not tested first solution, just a guess, used second solution :) ) [15:32] I do like the team/roles mapping a lot [15:32] so will I! [15:32] btw [15:32] I heard you need to be marked on LP so that your website can receive these infos? [15:33] if you file a bug in ubuntu-website I get it [15:33] if it's outside of that project you may need to mark me [15:33] ? [15:33] (I'm also default for canonical-website) [15:33] oh [15:33] sorry, mis-understood your question [15:34] do you mean you need group membership in launchpad? [15:34] I mean, I heard that in order the team plugin to work, you need to register your website somewhere? [15:34] oh. I thought that was not necessary now, but here's how to tell... [15:34] I just heard that, not checked myself [15:35] you try to login and the only data launchpad sends back is the openidurl. If lp tells you that it's sending your userid and/or email address that you're fine [15:37] so far, I only get the login, not the email [15:37] so it sends 'nand' back to the website or only the openid url? [15:37] 'nand' [15:38] then you're set I believe. Let me ask stuartm real quick. [15:38] but ok, I know that you need to be registered somewhere to have mails too. The question is : do we need some similar case of registration for the LP teams plugin to work? [15:39] boredandblogging: heya! [15:40] nand: hey, how are you? [15:40] still at work for now... [15:41] just so that you can take time to critisize my quick mockup meanwhile : http://www.ndeschildre.net/downloads/UBnews.html [15:41] newz2000: ^ [15:42] very quick one, with a few of the ideas I had [15:42] ah, that was you [15:42] please don't bite! :) [15:42] me? [15:43] btw, stuart says you need to register the site's "trustroot" which is in the docs. [15:44] trustroot... okay, I'll see that [15:44] so are we having our meeting now or are we doing it later? [15:44] * nand is still at work [15:44] ok [15:44] I'll much prefer having it once I'm back home [15:45] sure, do you have a time in mind? [15:45] 19 UTC, still okay? [15:45] 19 UTC is fine with me [15:45] sounds good to me [15:45] good [15:46] I need to make a trip to the passport office, apparently mine looks tampered with. [15:46] it got wet. [15:46] -$100 [15:46] :-( [15:46] newz2000: did you have trouble with it when travelling? [15:46] no, I was in the US so my driver's license worked [15:47] right [15:47] but I may have to go to London at the start of the year which will be a problem. [15:47] oooh [15:47] newz2000: there was an email on -news-team yesterday started by james westby about the calendar stuff [15:48] I added you to it [15:48] can you reply to it? [15:48] think I've got everyone thinking about it at this point :-P [15:48] * newz2000 looks for it [15:50] oh, filed under fridge [15:50] * newz2000 replies [15:50] newz2000: thanks [16:54] is it me or is it very hard to find well designed news sites? [16:59] lemonde.fr ? france24.com ? [16:59] okay, let's keep that for in two hours :) [17:06] nand: I do like the layout of france24.com [17:07] a problem common to lots of these news websites is : ads everywhere [17:08] well, instead of comparing to other news sites, ask what is the goal and who is the user [17:08] we may have different goals than other sites [17:21] * nand is going back home === Turl1 is now known as Turl [18:00] boredandblogging: I'm heading out the door a few min later than I expected, when nand comes back if I'm not back yet for our meeting I'll be only moments away [18:00] (passport office is 10m away and I have the paper work already) [18:00] cutting it close but should be back on time [18:30] re! [18:30] newz2000, boredandblogging: whenever you want [18:31] ok, I'm back earlier than I expected... fail on the passport :-( [18:31] forgot some paper? [18:31] yeah [18:31] try again tomorrow [18:44] i'm ready as well [18:45] ok boredandblogging, nand, lets go [18:45] who wants to start? [18:46] nand: ping [18:46] yep, I'm here! [18:46] so let me start [18:46] the audience for the website [18:47] basically, cover inter, intra, and external communication [18:47] I place for teams to post things that members of their own teams want/need to know [18:47] a place for locos to share their experiences doing things [18:48] and show off what they have been able to [18:48] so it will help all locos [18:48] and in general [18:48] communication with the outside world [18:48] fridge should be where "outsiders" come to find out the latest happenings in the Ubuntu community [18:49] maybe I should say the scope is everything :-P [18:49] well [18:49] Question: should we include external news, such as found in http://ubuntu-news.net/ ? [18:49] boredandblogging: lets start with persona [18:49] who is our user (or users) and what do they want? [18:50] nand no, not unless its very high quality [18:51] newz2000: My opinion is : all. Technically involved contributors, developers, and average non-technical users [18:51] instead of all, lets define them. We can't please everyone and we don't want to become a yahoo-like portal [18:51] newz2000: what nand said, does that sound too big of a scope? [18:51] yes [18:51] :-) [18:51] ok [18:51] Lets figure out three persona that we can cater to [18:51] and we'll make the focus of them... [18:52] persona? [18:52] (not counting the admins or peopel who post events (necessarily)) [18:52] right, lets start with technical/developers [18:52] for example, a loco team user who wants to know when and where the next loco team meeting [18:53] thats not the use case I'm sure we are going for [18:53] agree [18:54] ok, go ahead, lets create the proper persona then [18:54] its more like the LoCo had a release party, this is what they did to get it going, this is what happened, this is what they learned, etc [18:54] and throw in some pictures and videos [18:55] yep [18:55] we could include the planning part, but that would be a secondary optional goal [18:56] ok, so one persona is a team that wants to brag about an event that happened in the past, possibly uploading pictures or videos [18:56] newz2000: correct [18:56] so that may not even be the right track [18:57] because that's focusing on the people who are publishing events, and they'll benefit little from a redesign. [18:57] It's the people who are interested in reading about that event that need to be defined. [18:57] And maybe those people aren't even a good target, it's the people who come to the fridge to get some kind of information that we need to identify. [18:57] Once we do that then we can decide how best to meet their needs with the design. [18:58] ah right, I see [18:58] how about this... [18:58] loco members who are trying to find out what other locos are doing? [18:59] and want to gain experience, tricks and tips from them? [18:59] ok, that sounds good [18:59] (how did the french do to gather 4000 people?? :) ) [18:59] right [19:00] next: Ubuntu teams members, contributors ? [19:00] people in the loop, technically advanced [19:01] one of the things james westby talked about was how sometimes developers fall off the map [19:01] they go away for a while and then come back [19:01] since MOTU stuff moves pretty fast, there is no way for them to keep track of what has changed [19:02] and that's why they were talking about this Developer News [19:02] right [19:02] this applies to non-MOTU related activities as well [19:02] say Xubuntu needs a new ISO tested [19:03] the reader might be anyone looking to help out [19:03] or looking for a way to participate [19:03] is that vague? [19:03] in this case, it is a third kind of person : potential contributor [19:04] it is a bit vague [19:04] so these are people who are in the community but need to stay in touch with what's happening? [19:05] right [19:05] yes [19:05] that sounds good enough [19:05] and maybe a separate persona of people who want to find ways to participate [19:05] let me make a sugegstion for another... [19:05] people who are not yet sold on Ubuntu and want to find out what's going on or hear the buzz [19:06] definitely [19:06] the outsider category [19:06] media folks who are looking for something to write about [19:06] so summing all, we end up by targeting all people :) [19:06] well, not really [19:06] or let's say : who are we not targetting? [19:06] not yet [19:07] but we will [19:07] we have three maybe four personas now we want to cater to [19:07] who do we don't want to target? [19:07] wait [19:07] :-) [19:07] let's restate our personas and ensure we agree [19:07] locos - want to know what other locos are doing [19:08] insiders - trying to stay in touch with what's going on [19:08] outsiders / press - looking for use cases or success stories about Ubuntu [19:08] yeah, looks right [19:08] you started to mention a fourth... [19:08] people who want to participate [19:08] and we mentionned people wanting to contribute [19:08] yeah [19:09] is the fridge the best place for those? Do we currently help them? [19:09] that maybe more of a ubuntu wanted thing [19:09] or the Partipcate page [19:09] Participate [19:09] they may be inter related [19:10] e.g. "Call for testing" : you need people fast [19:10] you may want to put it in front page for a while [19:10] ok, so that may be a good persona then [19:10] but on the overall, yeah, wanted [19:11] we don't want all help request on the news website. But a few once in a while would not hurt [19:11] yeah, depending on what it is [19:11] and concerning the Fridge, for outsiders, its visibility is very bad [19:11] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=988278 [19:12] insiders : I'm not aware of any of us reading the fridge [19:12] since its content can be found on the planet [19:13] which we've discussed is a bad place to announce anything [19:14] thats why we need to revive the fridge :-) [19:14] oh, new numbers on the poll! It was worse before [19:14] newz2000: so what do you think? [19:15] and locos: basically they is very few content for them. [19:15] I was wondering if we need to revise our persona, or do you think the original three are OK (considering the comment about "insiders") [19:16] still ok for me [19:17] ok, so we have our three persona [19:17] who is not going to be best served by the fridge? [19:17] why should one of these category be badly served? [19:18] no, I mean who have we not discussed yet [19:18] those that we are not catering to [19:18] anyone who has no clue about Ubuntu [19:19] which is ok [19:19] for this, we need a good inter-website navigation, so that they can easily find ubuntu.com [19:19] anyone else? [19:20] not that I can think of [19:21] ok, so we need to decide how to attract and serve our target users and how to deflect the others [19:21] how can we make the target users happiest? [19:21] * newz2000 is putting this on the wiki btw [19:21] lots of news [19:21] and well organized [19:21] do all three persona care about the same news or do they each want something different? [19:22] different [19:22] ok, for each, what do they want? [19:22] i think at a high level most would be interested in knowing some of the same thing [19:22] s [19:22] for example, the 4000 people french release party [19:23] it may be not technical, but it would surely interest everyone [19:23] yeah [19:23] the most interesting piece of news understandable by all categories of people [19:24] pieces [19:24] ok, so what do the loco users want to know? [19:25] events, bug james [19:25] jams [19:25] events on the LoCo team ("new locos database", ...) [19:26] i have a side question [19:26] are their not categories of news that cross all personas? [19:27] yes, there probably are [19:27] for example, the Ubuntu Hall of Fame [19:27] big pieces of news [19:27] thats not loco or developmental specific [19:27] free culture showcase, etc [19:27] What's going to happen is that by identifying the needs of our users we'll create a homepage where everyone who is a target user gets satisfaction [19:28] so all three personas find something for themselves on the homepage? [19:28] yes [19:28] makes perfectly good sense [19:29] back to locos [19:29] Events and bug jams so far [19:29] think they would like to know the high level things [19:29] free culture showcase [19:29] open week [19:30] maybe we should also identify what they don't want to see... is there something that would either turn them off or waste their time [19:30] too much technical stuff :-P [19:31] low level technical discussions or topics [19:31] good [19:31] here's what i have so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Persona [19:32] we can revise this at any time so lets move on to the next persona, insiders [19:33] interested in MOTU, docs, testing [19:33] they will like news from their team [19:33] or maybe they are just subpersonas of insiders [19:34] and also getting the headlines from others teams [19:34] nand, those last two combined == 'everything' [19:34] :-D [19:35] eheh [19:35] What will turn the insiders off? [19:36] hmm [19:36] average users tip and tricks... well, any newbie related stuff [19:37] which I doubt we will have much of [19:37] ok [19:37] Outsiders [19:37] If we let people submit posts... :) [19:37] nand: thats a whole different issue [19:37] :-P [19:38] Outsiders, we can see it in Brainstorm, want to know what's going on in the development of Ubuntu! [19:38] I've made a note of it [19:38] and while being technically accessible [19:38] right, no one wants to join IRC or mailing lists to find out [19:38] it's just out of question for them [19:39] oh, and [19:39] for the average user, Ubuntu is... everything. No upstream conception [19:40] so they will expect news related to... every area [19:40] Xorg, kernel, ... [19:40] good observation nand, I think I agree [19:41] they'll want to know when a new ATI hardware is supported, they'll want to know when a new big feature has finally landed on gnome, and so on... [19:43] its fine if we can tell them, but can point them upstream if needed [19:43] here's what I ahve so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Persona [19:43] if they do have some kind of news items, of course. [19:43] (and non technical ones) [19:44] okay [19:44] looks good [19:44] so you're starting to see the kinds of things that would make a good homepage for our users [19:44] and what to avoid [19:45] A kind of three main subportal may be a good idea [19:46] maybe, but as you noted, some of the things are interesting to multiple target users [19:46] so I wouldn't do one-column per persona [19:46] oh nono I was not thinking of that [19:46] instead focus on ways to get interesting data for each above the fold [19:46] but roughly that: http://www.ndeschildre.net/downloads/UBnews.html [19:47] (the big tabs) [19:47] (roughly :) ) [19:47] sure [19:47] First page combine a little of all, but no to almost no technical stuff at all [19:47] nand, are you good at theming? [19:48] I'm not really a designer. I can get some stuff done, but that takes me much longer than a designer would do :) [19:48] if I give you my html and images can you make it into a theme? [19:48] no problem [19:49] ok, I have a working html template but it's not a drupal theme [19:49] would now be a good time to talk about LP integration and videos? [19:49] almost [19:49] and language support? :) [19:49] nand: it looks like yours but has better typography, simpler layout code and is fixed width (and we can adjust the width) [19:49] oh yeah, I was gonna mention the width thing [19:50] go for it [19:50] yeah, do we want fixed or not? [19:50] What I have is fixed but we don't have to use fixed [19:50] if we do, I think the fridge can support a wide fixed-width [19:50] if not fixed width, something that doesn't go all the way across [19:50] pb with fixed is that it sucks on big screen. Pb with non-fixed is that it's harder to make a good theme of it [19:51] yeah [19:51] why don't we start with what I have [19:51] what do you have? [19:51] Oh [19:51] it's pretty good and if we make it 950px wide it will work nicely [19:51] and I forgot [19:51] for most people [19:51] (can be seen on shipit currently) [19:52] by theme, you mean the outside of the page? [19:52] yes [19:53] just the shell, the brown part with the rounded corners [19:53] ok [19:53] I also have the graphic I made for the fridge currently if that helps (in svg format) [19:53] we should maybe keep the design part for later and first see about languages, LP integration and videos? [19:54] ok [19:55] Concerning languages, why not make this available in several languages? Drupal offer the infrastructure to translate existing nodes [19:56] that could be managed by community members [19:57] a real life example is http://observers.france24.com/en/, http://observers.france24.com/fr/, http://observers.france24.com/ar/ [19:57] So where do people who want non-english ubuntu news go now? [19:58] in their local loco team website, if it exists (rare), or... nothing [19:58] yeah, depends on the locos who speak that language [19:59] Ubuntu.com is english only and depends (and in the future will explicitly refer people to) localized sites. [20:01] not saying same has to be for fridge [20:01] the thing is, I'm not sure how much of the fridge would get translated if the option was available [20:01] especially considering how fast news can change [20:01] what about lp integration? [20:01] we can let the local members decide what to put on their frontpage [20:02] LP integration : tested locally on Brainstorm, works great. [20:02] LP teams binding needs some bugs fixes [20:02] i wanted this specifically for comments (can be used for other things if needed) [20:03] ok, so to comment must have a launchpad id? [20:03] if a reader is already logged into LP, use their name, maybe their profile pic [20:03] sound ok. Avoid spam pbs [20:03] newz2000: thats a tricky question [20:03] would like it to be open, but I'm afraid of spam [20:04] maybe some captcha could help [20:04] there is spam blocking plugins like mollum and etc [20:04] okay, one or the other [20:04] if LP data available, display img and stuff [20:04] otherwise too bad [20:05] Videos? [20:05] go for it [20:06] yes [20:06] this is my big thing [20:06] i think the front page should always have a nice picture or video [20:07] the content from UDS alone gives us material for a couple of months [20:07] ok, would that be self hosted or on youtube/etc? [20:07] I do agree, as much as possible, videos/imgs [20:07] and I don't think we should be hosting any of the videos either [20:07] youtube is being used for the UDS stuff [20:08] we just embed [20:08] I saw a good demo last week of how to add videos to your website when they're hosted elsewhere [20:08] CCK and stuff [20:08] piece of cake, though I don't know about the security/firewall concerns (with that server being able to ping youtube) [20:08] i'm a bit worried about the different sizes that all the different sites use [20:08] yes [20:09] i tried embedding on the current fridge, and it let me [20:09] at least when previewing, didn't actually submit it [20:09] depend on the filter in use [20:10] but the size of the player can be given to the player [20:10] anything more on videos? [20:10] http://youdrup.com/ youtube clone done in drupal [20:10] :-) [20:11] nie [20:11] nice [20:11] newz2000: is there an ubuntu download page in other lang than english? you should make one if there isn't, or promote it if there is [20:12] there is not, but one of my hopeful plans for next release is to make a syndicatable download iframe that can be localized [20:12] that's an unofficial goal currently. :-) [20:12] great :) [20:12] Now I'd like to see the frontpage: [20:12] and how's that automatic mirror selection going? [20:12] it should not be in a blog format, where the latest comes first. Instead, items would be ordered by the editors [20:13] Turl: good, I got approval for geoip but I'm going to have a meeting with #is this week or next to discuss it in details [20:13] so that important pieces of news stay longer on top [20:13]