[14:34]  * _MMA_ waves.
[14:38] <kwwii> hey man
[14:39] <_MMA_> kwwii: Bug squishin' this mornin' I see.
[14:40] <kwwii> yepp
[14:46] <_MMA_> bbl
[15:34] <dilomo> thorwil: hi
[15:35] <thorwil> hi dilomo
[15:35] <dilomo> the metacity buttons are driving me crazy :)
[15:36] <dilomo> can't make them
[15:36] <thorwil> dilomo: good. maybe something brilliant will be born out of your craziness! ;)
[15:36] <dilomo> :D I hope so
[15:37] <dilomo> what do you think:
[15:37] <dilomo> - 3 separate buttons or
[15:37] <dilomo> - big one (like vista)
[15:38] <dilomo> anybody else is welcomed to share its opinion
[15:39] <thorwil> dilomo: i think you should work out the Why, and the What-to-achieve first
[15:39] <dilomo> well Why?
[15:40] <dilomo> because the 3 buttons look old
[15:40] <dilomo> but are functional and the one big is trendy and will match the theme better (mayber)
[15:41] <dilomo> I want to achieve modern look but to keep or improve the functionality of the buttons (e.g. the X is bigger)
[15:43] <thorwil> dilomo: well, regarding general usability, you should large, clearly defined target areas. also the most clear icons possible. the standard trio isn't exactly self-explanatory, but it is well known
[15:44] <thorwil> dilomo: then it might be good to have some separation between minimize/maximize and close, as they operate on different levels and only Close is "risky"
[15:45] <dilomo> hmm interesting idea
[15:45] <dilomo> I just got a glimmer
[15:47] <dilomo> thorwil: but there is one problem: when you turn on your compiz effects it adds more buttons to every window thus making some of them with close and maximize only. Then the theme will look unfinished. For reference you can see the current one.
[15:48] <thorwil> dilomo: that's new to me
[15:50] <dilomo> So henerally there are four main cases: 1. The three buttons 2. Only close 3. Only close on toolwindows 4.Close and minimize. Metacity is made to work with these types and my theme handles them
[15:50]  * thorwil has custom compiz settings and only the usual 3 buttons
[15:51] <dilomo> but when compoziting is enabled then more butons are added for examble on messageboxes where they are not needed at all.
[15:57] <dilomo> thorwil: wait a while to make scetches and upload them
[15:59] <dilomo> meanwhile what do you associate circle and square with and why?
[16:01] <thorwil> circle? head, ball, sun, moon, boobs. square: architecture
[16:02] <kwwii> thorwil said boobs
[16:02] <kwwii> :p
[16:02] <thorwil> kwwii said boobs ;p
[16:03] <kwwii> hehe
[16:03] <kwwii> just 'cause you said it first :)
[16:04] <dilomo> :) what's up kwwii
[16:05] <kwwii> dilomo: spent the day hunting down bugs
[16:05] <kwwii> fixed three and got mroe info on some others
[16:05] <kwwii> icon theme maintainence has nothing to do with fun
[16:06] <dilomo> :) that's true
[16:06] <dilomo> btw in the near future I will ship a new version of New Wave
[16:08] <dilomo> if you want it to be exclusively for Ubuntu users firs before others tell me to drop you a message when it's done so you could upload it to the repos
[16:09] <Nece228> maybe i dont need to say that, but we all are bored of flat themes
[16:10] <dilomo> thorwil: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229616541.jpg the quick sketches
[16:10] <dilomo> Niece228: an you bew more specific?
[16:10] <dilomo> Nece228: sorry I misspelled your name
[16:11] <Nece228> dilomo: no problem
[16:12] <Nece228> dilomo: i mean look at clearlooks theme
[16:12] <Nece228> also ubuntu dust theme is doing great job because it has more gradients
[16:13] <kwwii> dilomo: definitely, I need to update dust as well
[16:13] <thorwil> dilomo: perhaps you could draw the close button as part of the titlebar (taking full hight, touching the right edge) and the other buttons ... smaller, as buttons
[16:13] <thorwil> yeah, more gradients. and cowbell!
[16:13] <dilomo> Nece228: have you seen the lates development screens from New Wave
[16:13] <Nece228> thorwil: i know you hate me, but are you russian?
[16:14] <Nece228> dilomo: no
[16:14] <dilomo> Nece228: no I'm bulgarian
[16:14] <thorwil> Nece228: no and no
[16:14] <dilomo> Nece228: why should I hate you
[16:15] <Nece228> thorwil: it looks like in your picture you writing in cyrillic
[16:15] <Nece228> dilomo: hehe, i talked to thorwil
[16:15] <Nece228> dilomo: but i would like to see latest development screens
[16:15] <thorwil> Nece228: and you mistook dilomo's picture for mine, apparently
[16:16] <Nece228> thorwil: oops, sorry
[16:17] <dilomo> thorwil: I have done this in the current version. The X is bigger but it looks like a key.
[16:17] <Nece228> dilomo: but im not sure, oxygen style looks kinda flat but its stylish
[16:18] <dilomo> Nece228: sure here we go:
[16:18] <dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229617086.png
[16:18] <thorwil> dilomo: not at all what i mean
[16:19] <dilomo> the metacity now relflects active inactive state and is much better to use and look at
[16:20] <dilomo> thorwil: you imagined the x go to the right border right?
[16:20] <Nece228> dilomo: unique and professional
[16:20] <thorwil> dilomo: yes. like it would be a cut-out of the titlebar. as button, not a hole
[16:21] <dilomo> Nece228: thanks
[16:21] <Nece228> dilomo: especcialy i like that menubar (or how its called) and window borders colors are same
[16:22] <dilomo> thorwil: can you sketch it?
[16:23] <dilomo> Nece228: How do you think I could improve the metacity buttons?
[16:23] <Nece228> dilomo: i think its perfect now for me
[16:23] <zniavre> bonjour
[16:24] <zniavre> please how to set menu buttons with apps icon ?
[16:24] <zniavre> for metacity *
[16:25] <dilomo> zniavre: what do you mean?
[16:25] <thorwil> dilomo: sure
[16:26] <zniavre> dilomo:  just saw in your screenshot > on the left side it's menu buttons but it display application icon , am i wrong ?
[16:28] <dilomo> ahhh this. hmm I don't actually know (don't remember). You can check it out on the current version of the theme:
[16:28] <dilomo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/New%20Wave
[16:29] <Nece228> dilomo: by the way nice photo in your screensho
[16:29] <dilomo> Nece228: thanks. It is of a church in the capital of Bulgaria
[16:32] <zniavre> ok thank you
[16:39]  * dilomo is wondering what is thorwil "cooking" for the sketch
[16:45] <thorwil> dilomo: http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229618706.png
[16:45] <thorwil> dilomo: not quite right as is, just shows the idea
[16:46] <dilomo> interesting :) Maybe just align the other buttons' bottom to the X's bottom
[16:47] <dilomo> So you suggest thet there is no "Fill" only ethced in borders of the buttons
[16:48] <dilomo> this might turn ot to be very cool when done. I'm starting the work on it ;)
[16:48] <thorwil> dilomo: not necessarily. it's only about the button layout
[16:50] <dilomo> this could be don with circles respectively
[17:01] <dilomo> but squares with round angles look better, more traditional
[17:12] <Nece228> dilomo: you are catholic that you are making photos of churches?
[17:13] <dilomo> Nece228: i'm christian
[17:13] <Nece228> dilomo: cool, just like me :)
[17:13] <dilomo> and have to make photos for a project. btw where are you from Nece228
[17:14] <Nece228> dilomo: lithuania
[17:15] <Nece228> dilomo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania
[17:16] <dilomo> cool :) you ghave interesting rural architecture
[17:16] <dilomo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria
[17:17] <Nece228> dilomo: i heard about bulgaria
[17:18] <dilomo> ok just posted it to see in the religion section the same churck
[17:19] <dilomo> church*
[17:20] <Nece228> dilomo: lithuania's religion is catholiv
[17:22] <Nece228> dilomo: i actually hate catholics
[17:22] <dilomo> yes I thought so but did not know how to express the  "Orthodox Church" term
[17:22] <dilomo> Nece228: why so?
[17:23] <Nece228> dilomo: there are many reasons
[17:23] <Nece228> dilomo: bible wrote line like you cant try to picture god's photo
[17:24] <Nece228> dilomo: look how many jesus pictures there are
[17:24] <Nece228> dilomo: all these photos sucks
[17:24] <Nece228> dilomo: its more likely a hippie than a jesus
[17:24] <dilomo> Nece228: yes there are but all the icons in the ortodox churches express the same God
[17:25] <dilomo> Nece228: well the details may not be the same but the inspiration is
[17:25] <Nece228> dilomo: well but we must agree with everythink what is writed in bible
[17:26] <Nece228> dilomo: if anyone who will add or remove somethink to bible, will burn in hell
[17:26] <Nece228> dilomo: read the end lines in new testament
[17:26] <Nece228> dilomo: catholics added so much to bible
[17:27] <Nece228> dilomo: anyway i dont think its right channel to talk about religion
[17:27] <dilomo> Nece228: :) why then you don't change your religion?
[17:27] <dilomo> Nece228: me too
[17:28] <Nece228> dilomo: well im a real christian, i agree with everythink what is in bible
[17:28] <thorwil> Nece228: you can only claim that if you didn't read it
[17:29] <Nece228> dilomo: what do you mean by this?
[17:29] <dilomo> Nece228: what?
[17:29] <knome> actually there was some ubuntu rules which didn't permit talking about religion.
[17:30] <Nece228> knome: yeah
[17:30]  * dilomo shuts up
[17:30] <knome> maybe you can set up #somechannelwhereyoucantalkaboutreligion
[17:30] <Nece228> dilomo: i mean your last post, you can still pm me
[17:30] <Nece228> knome: we are apologising
[17:31] <knome> np. i personally am not distracted by this, but i want to obey the rules ;)
[17:31] <Nece228> i think theres already channel called #christian
[17:31] <knome> sure. but if you want to talk about cross-religiously
[17:31] <knome> *-about
[17:32] <Nece228> yes this channel works
[17:34] <Nece228> thorwil: i read it, im a philosopher
[17:37] <Nece228> thorwil: or should i say troll-philosopher :)
[17:38] <thorwil> Nece228: it is full of contradictions. you brought up the topic that doesn't belong here and i will not say any more single word about it
[17:39] <darkmatter> you mean troll-village-idiot-philosopher, right? :D
[17:40] <Nece228> darkmatter: sorry, but i know about science more than you
[17:41] <Nece228> darkmatter: but i dont care really what you say :D
[17:41] <knome> ok boys, stop flaming.
[17:41] <darkmatter> my former professors would disagree. Now that that is a done arguement /ignore dumbass troll
[17:42] <dilomo> This is supposed to be artwork channel
[17:43] <darkmatter> tell that to the troll I put on ignore, or better yet, someone op n kick him :)
[17:43] <darkmatter> then we can all return to the artwork :D
[17:44] <thorwil> ack
[17:46]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:02]  * dilomo eating and wathicng TV
[18:22] <darkmatter> I loath tv (well, most of it) I prefer to eat and read my new feeds
[19:22] <SealV> I dont like the yellow background for the text that is in black.
[19:26] <dilomo> I'm back
[19:26] <thorwil> I like the black text for the background that is in yellow
[19:26] <dilomo> SealV: what are you talking about
[19:27] <SealV> http://same-gfx.deviantart.com/art/screenflow-portfolio-81710478
[19:27] <SealV> manzur posted it
[19:28] <dilomo> I like it
[19:29] <thorwil> where's the yellow there?
[19:29] <dilomo> thorwil: I tried to the variant you proposed but it is not possible because the metacity eats my corners if I push the image too right. Here's another idea I got:
[19:29] <dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229628437.png
[19:30] <SealV> http://ebupof.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-website-84984292
[19:30] <SealV> wrong link, meant the yellow in there
[19:30] <_MMA_> dilomo: I like those buttons.
[19:32] <SealV> wait: is the ff window and the players windows button the same? I like the key like shape of the ff window as well
[19:33] <thorwil> SealV: oh, that. yes, someone ran deep into the coffee-grey-brown trap there
[19:33] <dilomo> _MMA_: thanks but doesn't the X button look to vertica and thus beaing alien to the titlebar
[19:33] <thorwil> dilomo: no. but you could make it a little wider
[19:34] <dilomo> SealV: the key shape is the old metacity of New Wave and the player is the new WIP
[19:34] <thorwil> dilomo: how about turning the - and ^ into buttons of the same shapes?
[19:34] <_MMA_> dilomo: You mean the top of the button frame isn't supposed to touch of the titlebar?
[19:35] <thorwil> _MMA_: it is. original idea was http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229618706.png
[19:35] <_MMA_> Ahh...
[19:36] <dilomo> thorwil: It is WIP so I am not till there yet :)
[19:37] <dilomo> the tricky thing is with the other two buttons
[19:38] <dilomo> because if I make them joined then they will not look good in all applications but if I make themseparate they will look too clumsy. However I will try both variants
[19:44] <_MMA_> dilomo: What apps mess up when they are joined?
[19:45] <_MMA_> Like apps that only use 1 or 2 buttons?
[19:46] <dilomo> _MMA_: exactly. The worse thing is when you turn on comizp and it adss additional button combinations like max/close that make no sense
[19:51] <_MMA_> dilomo: I'm sure Metacity lets you add sections for that case.
[19:55] <_MMA_> Hmm... Wait. That might be for "tool" windows I'm thinking of. In any case, I would still be surprised if there wasn't a way to do it.
[19:59] <dilomo> _MMA_: Yes you could specify different images for tool and dialog windows but as far as I know you could not do so for combination of buttons.
[20:30] <dilomo> Here are the latest changes but they don't look as cool as expected imo:
[20:30] <dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1229632192.png
[20:31] <_MMA_> dilomo: Maybe move things closer to the top of the titlebar?
[20:32] <dilomo> hmm it will look like vista then
[20:50] <dilomo> thorwil: any ideas
[20:51] <thorwil> no, empty
[20:52] <dilomo> I somehow should decrease the "heavy" effect of these buttons
[20:53] <_MMA_> dilomo: Well I wouldn't exactly stray away from the idea. I think it can work fine as long as you stay away from the coloring they use.
[20:53] <_MMA_> Of maybe something like the Fedora metacity?
[20:55] <dilomo> _MMA_: theirs is more lightwieght. The lines are less and thinner. The X button was cool by itself but the other two are way too much in the "glass"
[20:56] <dilomo> PRobably it would be good to make them with horizontal look to be opposite of the vertical X
[21:01] <dilomo> the thing is that I don't clearly know what I want the final product to look like and that is stopping me right now. This metacity looks good:
[21:01] <dilomo> http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/Gaia-Siberia-Metacity_1.jpg
[21:04] <_MMA_> dilomo: Interesting.
[21:04] <thorwil> bras as wm icons??
[21:05] <dilomo> wm?
[21:05] <thorwil> window-manager
[21:06] <thorwil> good night!
[21:07] <dilomo> bye
[21:08] <dilomo> I have to run too
[21:08] <dilomo> cya
[22:50] <kwwii> oh well, night