| === doko_ is now known as doko | ||
| === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| lool | Hey | 11:57 |
|---|---|---|
| * persia peers about | 11:59 | |
| davidm | Hello | 12:00 |
| davidm | #startmeeting | 12:00 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm. | 12:00 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 12:00 |
| davidm | First meeting we have had in 2 weeks, Travel, FOSSCamp and UDS blocked the last two. | 12:01 |
| davidm | lool, StevenK persia ogra you about? | 12:01 |
| lool | (I think the Current meeting link is broken) | 12:02 |
| * StevenK is mostly here | 12:02 | |
| lool | ogra is VAC | 12:02 |
| lool | StevenK: at the party? :) | 12:02 |
| StevenK | lool: I'm home, but a large amount of beer was drunk | 12:02 |
| StevenK | (By me) | 12:02 |
| * persia waves | 12:02 | |
| davidm | lool, it is go in by date and page is there. | 12:03 |
| lool | davidm: Yeah, got it | 12:03 |
| lool | davidm: Just wanted to raise the current meeting link which I'm not sure how t ofix | 12:03 |
| lool | There are a couple of things I'd like to discuss but I didn't write in the agenda | 12:04 |
| lool | Basically boils down to deliverables for alphas and prioritization of our tasks | 12:05 |
| davidm | That is good, menu is now fixed | 12:05 |
| lool | Thanks! | 12:05 |
| davidm | Just reload it. | 12:05 |
| davidm | Did we have any old business that was not UDS related? I don't think so. | 12:06 |
| lool | Don't think so either | 12:06 |
| lool | actually we had an alpha 1 item | 12:07 |
| lool | Which was a good thing to raise by persia | 12:07 |
| persia | Which was that? | 12:07 |
| lool | persia: You raised before UDS the topic of alpha 1 testing | 12:07 |
| persia | Oh :) That's obsolete. | 12:08 |
| lool | And I think it was an excellent point; what I'd like to bring up today is... alpha 2 and 3 :) | 12:08 |
| persia | We ought do some alpha 2 testing, but given the expected seed changes, I'm not expecting us to have something installable until Alpha 3. | 12:08 |
| davidm | Apparently ogra got the UMPC image built and some testing last night | 12:08 |
| StevenK | Yes. | 12:09 |
| StevenK | This makes me unhappy. | 12:09 |
| lool | davidm: [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images perhaps? | 12:09 |
| StevenK | I was hoping to ignore UMPC until we got the new one building | 12:09 |
| StevenK | Now I have work to undo | 12:09 |
| lool | StevenK: I think we will rename it back, wont we? | 12:09 |
| davidm | [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images | 12:09 |
| MootBot | New Topic: alpha 2 and 3 images | 12:09 |
| StevenK | lool: Rename it back? | 12:10 |
| lool | StevenK: My understanding is that we'd change umpc to focus on UNR apps incrementally | 12:10 |
| lool | StevenK: Rename to netbook | 12:10 |
| davidm | We still don't have ARM far enough to make images | 12:10 |
| StevenK | We don't have a livefs builder yet | 12:10 |
| lool | davidm: That's actually a question I had; for what devices should we be aiming ARM images at? I think we want to start with desktop ASAP, but we need working kernels | 12:11 |
| persia | lool, Why does device matter? I thought we agreed no kernels on ARM images for now. | 12:11 |
| davidm | We do, we will have devices shortly that will be our target | 12:11 |
| lool | In general, kernel issues are holding us on 3 fronts: lpia out of date, real hardware armel flavours (well we have n810), and virtual images (current doesn't work in qemu) | 12:11 |
| lool | persia: We do need to test them and have kernels for them | 12:12 |
| lool | persia: The fact that there's no kernel in them is just a technical format matter, but we will offer the kernel for download I guess | 12:12 |
| persia | True. For that, we'll need the image-wedger program | 12:12 |
| cjwatson | StevenK: at least the work I did in support of ogra was needed anyway and will transfer easily to whatever the new name is | 12:12 |
| davidm | For "today" yes N810 is a good target, I hope by next week and certainly by Jan we will have different hardware. | 12:12 |
| lool | StevenK, ogra: did you guys try the ubuntu n8x0 armel kernel on n8x0 already? | 12:13 |
| cjwatson | persia: err so does that mean you don't want d-i for armel? (I talked about this on the phone with David yesterday and I thought we still did even if there will certainly be some devices that can't install that way.) | 12:13 |
| * persia looks up the session notes | 12:13 | |
| StevenK | I think we do. | 12:14 |
| StevenK | I even spent time fixing it. | 12:14 |
| cjwatson | d-i needs a kernel. Can perfectly well be several kernels with several d-i images resulting from them. | 12:14 |
| persia | I'm fairly sure we want d-i, but I'm not sure about d-i kernel modules. | 12:14 |
| cjwatson | you can't run d-i without kernel bits. | 12:14 |
| davidm | We know some can't but we think most can, so we want it in my mind. | 12:14 |
| lool | cjwatson: This is what we noted as first goal images in our discussion: | 12:14 |
| lool | * Jaunty vfat images, kernel-less - live ubuntu-desktop - d-i ubuntu-server | 12:15 |
| lool | (mobile-arm-images in gobby) | 12:15 |
| davidm | unless proven otherwise | 12:15 |
| cjwatson | I appreciate the targets but the last two are likely to be sort of backwards. Server-style images are a lot easier to get going | 12:15 |
| lool | cjwatson: What we didn't really discuss (by lack of understanding I guess) was how the d-i images would look like; we knew about tftp boot support and the like | 12:15 |
| cjwatson | note that there are two separate issues that it's important not to conflate: the kernel d-i boots with, and the kernel it installs | 12:16 |
| cjwatson | (if any) | 12:16 |
| lool | cjwatson: Our main concern was not having to build too many individual images, yet supporting many devices with as little kernels as possible but still a bunch | 12:17 |
| persia | Well, and not actually including a full set of kernels and initrds for space reasons. | 12:17 |
| lool | That was another reason indeed | 12:18 |
| lool | cjwatson: I think we didn't really discuss who would do what or how the images would exactly be used / look like | 12:18 |
| lool | cjwatson: I understand there are many ways to distribute / launch d-i | 12:18 |
| StevenK | My plan was to kick livecd-rootfs to just not install a kernel | 12:19 |
| cjwatson | I'm just concerned that you're saying we shouldn't do work that to some extent has already been done | 12:19 |
| davidm | I see bug #308465 has all bits marked Fix Released. So di is no longer blocked is that correct? | 12:19 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 308465 in uboot-mkimage "MIR for slugimage, uboot-mkimage and apex" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308465 | 12:19 |
| lool | StevenK: That part was the clear one for the desktop images; what we really didn't set straight is how exactly people would use the live images, how they'd combine with a kernel and all | 12:19 |
| lool | Because this is highly device specific | 12:19 |
| cjwatson | davidm: right, just waiting for it to build now; I asked for a build score bump earlier | 12:20 |
| davidm | thanks cjwatson | 12:20 |
| lool | cjwatson: What do you mean we shouldn't do work? | 12:20 |
| cjwatson | lool: well, there's already a set of kernels, d-i is already set up to use them ... and people are saying "no kernels on ARM images for now". So as an installer guy I am hopelessly confused about what y'all actually want | 12:20 |
| davidm | I think until we have some actual real hardware we are going to have questions (confusion), by the new year (possibly as early as next week) we will have some hardware. | 12:21 |
| persia | cjwatson, Looking through the notes in the mobile-arm-images gobby document, I believe you're not alone | 12:21 |
| lool | cjwatson: Ok; the concerns is that there are like let's say 7 or 8 planned kernel flavours; what are you building per kernel right now and what would you recommend we build don't build? | 12:21 |
| davidm | Once we have that we can do some actual testing and remove confusion. | 12:22 |
| cjwatson | lool: I'm just building d-i for all the available kernels | 12:22 |
| lool | cjwatson: What I think is that the image format will depend on the target device | 12:22 |
| cjwatson | which I think makes sense until I hear otherwise | 12:22 |
| lool | cjwatson: If you don't mind doing that for 7/8 kernels that's fine | 12:22 |
| StevenK | cjwatson: Sure, but do we make images for 8 kernel flavours? | 12:22 |
| persia | cjwatson, From what I'm seeing, I think we want d-i bits for all the available kernels, although those might not actually appear in the downloaded images | 12:22 |
| cjwatson | StevenK: in many cases I expect that the stuff d-i spits out will be sufficient / all you can actually use anyway | 12:23 |
| lool | cjwatson: I have an example which perhaps shows how unclear it is to me what output d-i should produce for all 7/8 kernels: I have a thecus N2100; it doesn't have any display, so it should be installed over SSH; to install is, one points the pre-loaded original linux install at a "firmware upgrade file" which is just a d-i image signed specially | 12:24 |
| lool | cjwatson: We probably want to offer such an image to allow installation on these devices, but this is only needed for this device, only for a kernel flavour | 12:25 |
| davidm | separate but related issue: cjwatson on our call yesterday you described a method of getting around the issue of the device that will not boot without jtag for updates, can you explain here again please (for the record) thanks | 12:25 |
| * persia notes that d-i as a set of components differs from a "d-i image" which is a misnomer for the alternate images. | 12:25 | |
| lool | (in my case, the signed image contains a kernel and an initrd) | 12:26 |
| cjwatson | persia: and from a "d-i image" which is one of the objects d-i spits out that lives in archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/DIST/main/installer-ARCH/ | 12:26 |
| lool | cjwatson: Say a device supports installation from USB mass storage; are we going to provide a vfat image suitable to be dd-ed on USB key? Does d-i output that for all kernel flavours? | 12:27 |
| cjwatson | lool: well, d-i's perfectly capable of producing different form factors for different kernels, and indeed I think already does | 12:27 |
| cjwatson | ./iop32x/netboot.cfg:10:# Thecus N2100 | 12:27 |
| cjwatson | i.e. it already deals with your device | 12:28 |
| cjwatson | but just for one kernel | 12:28 |
| lool | (hmm no installer-armel yet on http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/jaunty/main/) | 12:28 |
| cjwatson | davidm: for that, I suggested that we could install kboot, which is a Linux kernel with an initramfs that parses a bootloader-a-like configuration file and then kexecs the real image | 12:28 |
| cjwatson | I think the new generation of kboot (which we use on ps3) is petitboot | 12:29 |
| cjwatson | but same basic idea | 12:29 |
| cjwatson | lool: awaiting build | 12:29 |
| lool | cjwatson: Ok; so basically we aimed at not building useless images and not building a huge number of big images; if d-i is already well behaved enough that just enabling it to build on all the kernel flavours will DTRT, that's perfect :) | 12:29 |
| StevenK | lool: d-i was depwait due to things needing to be promoting | 12:29 |
| lool | arf petitboot | 12:29 |
| cjwatson | lool: I'd hope so, quite a bit of work has been done in Debian on d-i/arm | 12:29 |
| davidm | cjwatson, thanks. | 12:30 |
| cjwatson | lool: ? | 12:30 |
| lool | cjwatson: arf == lol | 12:30 |
| lool | Just found the name cute | 12:30 |
| cjwatson | ah | 12:32 |
| davidm | OK so we don't have images for ARM yet, but should have one for Alpha 3 | 12:32 |
| davidm | We have the UMPC image that will be renamed by Alpha 3 | 12:32 |
| StevenK | We have MID images -- albeit with 2.6.27 | 12:33 |
| StevenK | And no d-i due to the the kernel, either | 12:33 |
| lool | davidm: Concerning the ARM images, which one should we test in priority? | 12:33 |
| davidm | UMPC was given some testing last night, can someone else besides ogra grab it and do some more testing please? | 12:33 |
| lool | s/one/ones | 12:33 |
| lool | davidm: Ok; I'll take that | 12:34 |
| davidm | lool, for now I think N810 as everyone has the device, as soon as everyone has the next device we use it. | 12:34 |
| * davidm lool to grab the UMPC image and test. | 12:35 | |
| davidm | [action] lool to grab the UMPC image and test. | 12:35 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: lool to grab the UMPC image and test. | 12:35 |
| lool | Emmet doesn't have a N810, but ok | 12:35 |
| lool | (or do you?) | 12:35 |
| * davidm grumbles about forgetting mootbot commands | 12:35 | |
| persia | No, they aren't sold here. I can go get something similar if required, but am happy to wait | 12:35 |
| davidm | persia, I'll send you one, I was under the impression that you had one from UDS | 12:36 |
| davidm | I have a spare sitting here on my desk. | 12:36 |
| persia | That works too :) | 12:37 |
| davidm | OK anything more on the topic of Alpha 2/3? | 12:37 |
| lool | Well still related is netbook stuff | 12:37 |
| lool | We need to work on merging UNR packages more, enabling them by default and all | 12:37 |
| lool | Do we have an owner for this work already? | 12:37 |
| StevenK | I'd suggest ogra | 12:37 |
| davidm | No actually, lool who is best for this? I have a list of packages. | 12:38 |
| lool | We need someone with a netbook! :) | 12:38 |
| * persia will see about reclaiming the Kohjinsha | 12:38 | |
| davidm | Well the Q1 Ultra will work for this until we have purchased hardware. | 12:38 |
| lool | davidm: I'm tempted to think most people could do it, but we should keep an eye of the work load of each of us; perhaps we need to list what we all will be working on this cycle explicitely and look at moving unassigned stuff at this point? | 12:39 |
| lool | I would like doing it, but I'm not sure I'm not overcommitting | 12:39 |
| davidm | OK I'll take the action of making a wiki page with the list of packages that need to be merged/updated | 12:39 |
| lool | Hmm I thought there was one | 12:40 |
| davidm | is there? | 12:40 |
| davidm | I don't have the URL for it. | 12:40 |
| lool | Ah no, we have a wiki text for it though | 12:40 |
| lool | Should just be a matter of copy-paste | 12:40 |
| StevenK | davidm: Throw me an action for sorting out the seeds, since I've done most of it locally | 12:40 |
| davidm | StevenK, lets change the topic to seeds first, then make the action | 12:41 |
| lool | So perhaps a good course of actions is a) everybody to do drafting on pet specs and set drafter and assignee b) we review as a group what everybody does and assign the remaining important specs? | 12:41 |
| lool | I frankly don't have a good overview of who will be working on what; just what I remember from UDS | 12:42 |
| * persia claims all the otherwise unclaimed specs | 12:43 | |
| persia | (at least as drafter) | 12:43 |
| davidm | OK I'm going to close current topic and open a new one, updating UDS specs | 12:43 |
| davidm | [topic] updating UDS spec's with results from UDS | 12:43 |
| MootBot | New Topic: updating UDS spec's with results from UDS | 12:43 |
| lool | Hmm looks like we wont have a meeting next week... | 12:44 |
| persia | I've been going through notes and gobby documents, and expect to be able to dump stuff in the next 2-3 days into most of the specs. | 12:44 |
| lool | Many people are half-VAC this week or next | 12:44 |
| lool | It means postponing this review to January which is late | 12:45 |
| davidm | [action] lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th | 12:45 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th | 12:45 |
| davidm | [action] persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those. | 12:45 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those. | 12:45 |
| davidm | I agree but with the late UDS we don't have a choice | 12:45 |
| davidm | lool, ^^ | 12:46 |
| lool | (I wish I'd think of this last week and set it as a goal for today but that would have been probably tight) | 12:46 |
| davidm | with travel and such I think impossible and there is no meeting next week or the week after. | 12:47 |
| davidm | OK anymore on seeds? | 12:47 |
| davidm | OK anymore on specs | 12:47 |
| davidm | that is | 12:48 |
| lool | I have a question on images if I'm allowed to jump back a second on the previous topic | 12:48 |
| davidm | Ok | 12:48 |
| lool | StevenK, cjwatson: will we have a livefs builder for armel? | 12:48 |
| davidm | [topic] seed status | 12:49 |
| MootBot | New Topic: seed status | 12:49 |
| StevenK | We will have one, yes. | 12:49 |
| lool | StevenK: Is that planned for before alpha 3? | 12:49 |
| StevenK | I have no idea. | 12:49 |
| StevenK | I'll use it when it's configured | 12:49 |
| davidm | lool, can you take the action to cut and paste the UNT text to a wiki page? | 12:50 |
| lool | UNT? UNR? | 12:50 |
| lool | Sure | 12:50 |
| davidm | Yes, fumble fingered sorry | 12:51 |
| davidm | [action] lool to move UNR text to wiki page. | 12:51 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: lool to move UNR text to wiki page. | 12:51 |
| davidm | StevenK, seed status? You have an update? | 12:51 |
| StevenK | I have most of the changes made locally. | 12:52 |
| StevenK | I'll go through the unr seed and see if any changes need to be made | 12:52 |
| davidm | [action] StevenK to sort out seed changes | 12:52 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: StevenK to sort out seed changes | 12:52 |
| lool | Ah you wanted to replace the umpc seed wholesale with the unr one | 12:55 |
| StevenK | Not exactly | 12:55 |
| lool | Any other topics for today? | 12:57 |
| persia | mobile-applications | 12:57 |
| davidm | Just the usual status updates, but we are out of time | 12:57 |
| lool | (We might be running out of time) | 12:57 |
| persia | Ah, then none :) | 12:58 |
| davidm | we'll have to post the status in the email | 12:58 |
| lool | actually we have time | 12:58 |
| persia | I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. | 12:58 |
| davidm | persia, good | 12:58 |
| lool | I don't see any meeting after ours today | 12:58 |
| davidm | [action] persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. | 12:58 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. | 12:58 |
| persia | No, Desktop changed the time, and moved to a different channel. Still | 12:58 |
| davidm | OK lets do a quick status and then end the meeting | 12:59 |
| davidm | [topic] status report (quick) | 12:59 |
| MootBot | New Topic: status report (quick) | 12:59 |
| lool | Who's quick? | 12:59 |
| davidm | persia, ? | 12:59 |
| persia | UDS, post-UDS braindump & notes review. | 12:59 |
| persia | (not yet complete, nor posted) | 12:59 |
| davidm | OK | 13:00 |
| davidm | StevenK, ? | 13:00 |
| StevenK | UDS, post-UDS review/spec writing, armel | 13:00 |
| davidm | lool, ? | 13:01 |
| lool | SRUs, MIRs, general catchup, doctor, poked some ARM stuff | 13:01 |
| lool | davidm: what about you? | 13:01 |
| lool | Feeling any better? | 13:01 |
| davidm | post UDS travel, paperwork, and setting interviews | 13:02 |
| davidm | Still have chest cold I think. | 13:02 |
| lool | Sorry about that :-/ | 13:02 |
| davidm | Got is as I got back on Monday. | 13:02 |
| davidm | So I hope it clears soonish | 13:02 |
| * StevenK thinks he managed to avoid the lool-cold | 13:02 | |
| * lool sends a letter to .au | 13:02 | |
| lool | hugs and kisses from France! | 13:03 |
| * StevenK stamps it Return to Sender, unopened | 13:03 | |
| davidm | OK I'm going to close the meeting, StevenK you have the action to post weekly report tomorrow | 13:03 |
| * StevenK nods | 13:03 | |
| lool | davidm: thanks for chairing | 13:03 |
| davidm | #endmeeting | 13:03 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 07:03. | 13:03 |
| davidm | lool, thanks | 13:03 |
| StevenK | When I recover from the coma I'm about to fall into | 13:03 |
| lool | I wish you people a merry xmas next week | 13:03 |
| davidm | Indeed | 13:03 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| persia | Who's here for the Java meeting? | 14:01 |
| Koon | o/ | 14:01 |
| persia | Are we expecting ludovicc, slytherin, or robilad? | 14:02 |
| Koon | I don't think ludovicc will join us, don't know for the others | 14:03 |
| persia | slytherin doesn't appear on freenode, and robilad seems to be on an unusually small number of channels, so I'm guessing it's logging-only. | 14:04 |
| persia | So, roadmap: anything exciting for maven? | 14:05 |
| Koon | ludivic is still working on the tools | 14:05 |
| Koon | We've been discussing for Torsten Werner (debian-java) about integration | 14:06 |
| Koon | he is following a slightly different model: revisiting all Java library packages and provide a Maven-compatible view of them | 14:07 |
| Koon | i.e. /usr/share/java-maven-repo/path/to/artifactname/versionname/artifact-version.jar | 14:07 |
| Koon | rather than /usr/share/java/artifact-version.jar | 14:08 |
| Koon | The two approaches are not mutually exclusive | 14:08 |
| Koon | though I would have thought going for /usr/share/java-maven-repo things would require some policy decisions | 14:08 |
| persia | So we're likely to end up with a hybrid, and finally with just syncs? | 14:09 |
| persia | I'd agree that it would probably need some policy changes, but pkg-java can do that :) | 14:09 |
| Koon | yep. | 14:09 |
| === davmor2 is now known as davmor2-away | ||
| persia | Anything else you want on the meeting records for maven this week? | 14:10 |
| Koon | Another concern raised is that asking maven to map to slightly-different versions of JARs is dangerous | 14:10 |
| Koon | I'll explain a bit | 14:10 |
| persia | API/ABI type issues? | 14:10 |
| Koon | maven allows Java developers to pick a very specific version number for every JAR | 14:11 |
| Koon | We, on the other hand, provide just one version | 14:11 |
| Koon | so when maven asks for plexus-utils-1.0.7_alpha7, we can give it 1.0.7_alpha2, or alpha10 | 14:12 |
| Koon | there is no API/ABI protection whatsoever in version numbers | 14:12 |
| Koon | while this is reasonable for small software stacks... it can quickly become a problem with large ones | 14:13 |
| Koon | which are usually those using maven :) | 14:13 |
| Koon | I don't really know how we can solve that. | 14:13 |
| Koon | while still maintaining some common libraries | 14:13 |
| persia | Presumably that's something that can be improved as developers learn a more modular approach, as expected with the Java 7 transition? | 14:14 |
| persia | Certainly not quickly, but in time? | 14:14 |
| Koon | yes, we might need some workaround in between | 14:14 |
| persia | More than just our standard build/test/patch/report model? | 14:15 |
| Koon | something like shipping the expected JAR stack as part of the binaries, for complex software | 14:15 |
| persia | We do that now sometimes, but it's a bit of a security nightmare. | 14:15 |
| Koon | that may be preferable to testing nightmare + losing JavaEE certifications | 14:16 |
| Koon | anyway, I wanted to raise the issue because I think the common libraries model doesn't fit too well with the current Java world | 14:17 |
| persia | Right. Generally, the process has been to try to use system libraries, and bundle when they didn't work. | 14:17 |
| persia | No, it certainly doesn't fit with current cultural practices, although this is (slowly) changing. | 14:17 |
| Koon | I'm sure robilad could provide some insights on the direction we are heading to | 14:17 |
| Koon | that's all | 14:17 |
| persia | Next item is removing Java 5 from Jaunty. | 14:18 |
| persia | There was a discussion about this with Sun representatives at UDS, and given the expected date for end-of-support for Java 5 from Sun, we will want to get this completed for Jaunty (and arguably may have wanted it for intrepid). | 14:19 |
| persia | Those users who need Java 5 beyond end-of-support can use 8.04.x or 8.10, but there won't be any more updates (even bugfix) soon enough. | 14:20 |
| zul | so whats the next version of java from sun? | 14:20 |
| persia | We still need to get the spec done, and get it approved, etc. | 14:20 |
| persia | zul, Next spec is Java 7. I'm not sure of the exact schedule for Sun JDK 5, Sun JDK 6, OpenJDK 6, or OpenJDK 7 builds. | 14:21 |
| persia | That's it for roadmap. | 14:23 |
| persia | On an administrative note, the next two Thursdays fall on days considered holidays in many places. I'll probably be around for the first, but not the second. Is anyone expecting to attend a Java Team meeting on those days? | 14:24 |
| Koon | persia: not me | 14:24 |
| persia | Well then, I'm not holding official meetings on those days :) | 14:24 |
| persia | That's it. Have a good week. | 14:24 |
| Koon | Thanks, you too :) | 14:25 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| === fenris_ is now known as e-jat | ||
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| lukjad007 | Sorry, forgot to log out. | 22:44 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| ubuntugeek | Hey Matthew | 22:53 |
| forumsmatthew | hello! | 22:54 |
| Technoviking | afternoon | 22:57 |
| ubuntugeek | How's it going? | 22:57 |
| forumsmatthew | I'm cold. It's 57 (F) here. | 22:57 |
| lukjad007 | 25 here. | 22:57 |
| Technoviking | going good | 22:57 |
| Technoviking | 23 F | 22:58 |
| forumsmatthew | I'm a cold wimp...it's all those years in the desert | 22:58 |
| forumsmatthew | on both sides of the Atlantic | 22:58 |
| lukjad007 | Heh. Well, I like winter. | 22:58 |
| ubuntugeek | 14F | 22:59 |
| lukjad007 | It makes most of my adversaries dumb | 22:59 |
| Snowflake | I wondered when jdong would be arriving. | 22:59 |
| lukjad007 | hey jdong | 22:59 |
| forumsmatthew | jdong, welcome! | 22:59 |
| jdong | hi everyone :) | 22:59 |
| jdong | I got the date right this time! | 22:59 |
| ubuntugeek | Hi | 22:59 |
| forumsmatthew | I'm pretty sure Kiwi isn't coming. Since the rest of us are here, shall we get started? | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | Let's go ahead and get started | 23:00 |
| forumsmatthew | lol | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | The agenda is located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda | 23:00 |
| Technoviking | I have only got a hour, got to change tapes before I go home :( | 23:00 |
| talsemgeest | So why isn't kiwi coming? | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | Should be quick Mike | 23:00 |
| ubuntugeek | talsemgeest: odd time for him | 23:00 |
| talsemgeest | 12.PM? | 23:01 |
| ubuntugeek | He works | 23:01 |
| * drubin catches up the logs | 23:01 | |
| talsemgeest | Ah | 23:01 |
| ubuntugeek | NicolsDeschilre are you here to discuss the brainstorm agenda item? | 23:01 |
| lukjad007 | Hey talsemgeest, will you be able to stay? | 23:01 |
| talsemgeest | Maybe another 20 minutes | 23:01 |
| ubuntugeek | Ok, we'll come back to the first Item then | 23:02 |
| lukjad007 | Okay. If you go, I'll bring up your point | 23:02 |
| ubuntugeek | The second item "The strikethrough tags [s][/s] do not work in the Forum" | 23:02 |
| drubin | brb | 23:02 |
| ubuntugeek | This isn't a native bbcode in vbulletin, however, I just added support for it :) | 23:02 |
| forumsmatthew | sweet! | 23:02 |
| lukjad007 | so, it's in? | 23:03 |
| ubuntugeek | Yes, its in | 23:03 |
| lukjad007 | Thanks you! | 23:03 |
| forumsmatthew | thank you | 23:03 |
| ubuntugeek | Working and tested [s]test[/s] will strike | 23:03 |
| jdong | coolness | 23:03 |
| Snowflake | On a related note, I believe [hr] is nonexistent or mod-only? (Just wondering) | 23:03 |
| talsemgeest | Awesome | 23:03 |
| ubuntugeek | Snowflake, no plans for that one we try to keep it limited. | 23:04 |
| Snowflake | Ah. | 23:04 |
| drubin | Snowflake: hr as in horizontal rule? | 23:04 |
| Snowflake | drubin: Yes. | 23:04 |
| jdong | ubuntugeek: maybe we should try using the del tag? | 23:04 |
| jdong | http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_del.asp | 23:04 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: thanks for moving the meeting time. | 23:04 |
| jdong | <strike> is technically deprecated | 23:04 |
| ubuntugeek | Next, on the agenda we have "Superfluous moderation on the forums" by wrtpeeps. Are they here to address their item? | 23:04 |
| ubuntugeek | There isn't much detail on this item, so I'm not sure what its pertaining to. Anyone else? | 23:05 |
| drubin | jdong: technically we *should* be only using css for this stuff | 23:05 |
| jdong | ubuntugeek: I believe it comes from one of the res center topics. | 23:06 |
| jdong | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267 | 23:06 |
| ubuntugeek | drudin: we do not allow html code directly in posts | 23:06 |
| forumsmatthew | he was unhappy with an infraction that Kiwi gave and I supported, or the other way around | 23:06 |
| Snowflake | Before wrtpeeps gets flooded, I send a message to him in the hopes that he is paying attention... | 23:06 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: I was just refering that [s] should apply a style rather then html code | 23:06 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin; that makes things more complicated | 23:07 |
| jdong | well with regard to wrtpeep's situation the existing FC replies sum up my opinion and his replies speak for themself. | 23:07 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: like with all things. :) Just saying it would be the ideal | 23:07 |
| * lukjad007 will be right back. | 23:07 | |
| forumsmatthew | My opinion is unchanged from what I said in the thread you linked | 23:07 |
| ubuntugeek | I agree with the moderation and infraction that took place in this situation | 23:08 |
| jdong | I don't see anything that needs to be done. The infraction was appropriate and wrtpeeps is not here to say otherwise. | 23:08 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | ||
| ubuntugeek | jdong: agreed | 23:08 |
| forumsmatthew | agreed...and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Superfluous?jss=0 | 23:08 |
| Technoviking | agreed | 23:09 |
| ubuntugeek | OK lets move on, if wrtpeeps shows up we can discuss it further. But the FC is in agreement with the actions taken. | 23:09 |
| ubuntugeek | Next, The bump thread Feel that they are over loading the forums unnecessarily. Drubin, you are up. | 23:09 |
| drubin | give me a sec writing it down :) | 23:10 |
| ubuntugeek | No problem, take your time. | 23:10 |
| drubin | We state that this is first and formost a tech support forum, yet we have this thread. I am not saying we need to get ride of these light hearted threads I am seriously wondering the extrea load they impose in the db is this nessary considering all the issues we were having at the time | 23:11 |
| drubin | btw the issues seemed to have calmed down a little bit | 23:11 |
| jdong | well I think the "issues" calming down is mere coincidence. | 23:11 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: agreed | 23:12 |
| talsemgeest | I feel that any overuse of the forum resources is worth it for the friendships that are made in that thread. It is a great place to get to know your fellow ubuntu-forumers. | 23:12 |
| jdong | while I absolutely agree this up-and-down flakiness of the forum needs to be resolved and looked at seriously, I don't feel a single long thread is the cause. | 23:12 |
| wrtpeeps | er, hi? | 23:12 |
| drubin | the extra posts might slow down the quries on a whole searching/indexing of the db | 23:12 |
| drubin | jdong: +1 | 23:12 |
| jdong | vBulletin doesn't really work in a way where long threads are more "expensive" to access. | 23:12 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin: I can assure that that bump thread isn't causing any load. | 23:12 |
| forumsmatthew | wrtpeeps, we will get back to your issue shortly, after we finish this on | 23:12 |
| forumsmatthew | *one | 23:13 |
| jdong | that being said, I think we do need to take a look at why on earth we have so many proxy errors. | 23:13 |
| jdong | ubuntugeek: any guesses? | 23:13 |
| ubuntugeek | It's configured wrong? | 23:13 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: You have direct access to the DB's/code I would love to know the explained query when viewing the bump thread how many rows it examines | 23:13 |
| forumsmatthew | gremlins? | 23:13 |
| wrtpeeps | hold on til I go refresh myself on what my issue was | 23:13 |
| Snowflake | jdong: Someday you'll have to tell me how the database works (if you can). I'm curious how that operates. | 23:13 |
| lukjad007 | Has it been narrowed down to a hardware or a software problem? | 23:14 |
| jdong | drubin: no more than it costs to retrieve any other 50 posts or 25 or whatever you have per page. | 23:14 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin: Alot of the queries are cached | 23:14 |
| jdong | lukjad007: it's software. | 23:14 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin: by vbulletin | 23:14 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: Ok topic over. | 23:14 |
| drubin | :) | 23:15 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin: when you pull of up a page of the thread its only pulling the posts on that page | 23:15 |
| jdong | I do think there's something weird going on with the proxy though.... | 23:15 |
| forumsmatthew | jdong, +1 | 23:15 |
| drubin | jdong: +1 | 23:15 |
| jdong | there was a phase where basically 1 of 10 pages end in proxy error | 23:15 |
| ubuntugeek | drubin; it doesn't prefetch all 1000 pages | 23:15 |
| drubin | ubuntugeek: Ye I know that. but I wanted to know the means for "searching" for those 20 posts | 23:15 |
| * drubin is trying to find his post explaining this | 23:16 | |
| jdong | drubin: hashtable. | 23:16 |
| jdong | constant access time | 23:16 |
| jdong | it's not an issue for vBulletin to handle | 23:16 |
| drubin | ye it should be handeled on the DB's side | 23:17 |
| drubin | but as with all design/programming there are more then one way to skin a cat | 23:17 |
| drubin | I was wondering how this way was handeling threads with huge amounts of posts... | 23:17 |
| ubuntugeek | Lets move on to wrtpeeps agenda item. I think we established that the bump thread isnt causing any problems. | 23:18 |
| forumsmatthew | +1 | 23:18 |
| lukjad007 | Thank you ubuntugeek | 23:18 |
| ubuntugeek | wrtpeeps you are up | 23:18 |
| jdong | +1 | 23:18 |
| wrtpeeps | ok | 23:19 |
| wrtpeeps | what exactly do you want me to say? Haven't been to one of these gatherings before | 23:19 |
| jdong | give us a quick description of the problem, link to relevant posts, and why you disagree with the decision. | 23:19 |
| ubuntugeek | I assume you put your item on the agenda because you feel you were wrongly given an infraction | 23:19 |
| wrtpeeps | Ok, so firstly apologies as I am unprepared as I wasn't aware this meeting was taking place now | 23:19 |
| wrtpeeps | but yes, I received what quite frankly was a pathetic infraction from KiwiNZ i believe. | 23:20 |
| wrtpeeps | For calling someone "paranoid" I got accused of "insulting other members" | 23:20 |
| wrtpeeps | This was, in my opinion, a totally unnecessary intervention by an administrator. | 23:21 |
| forumsmatthew | we all looked earlier, but for the record, here is the Resolution Center thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267 | 23:21 |
| wrtpeeps | ty | 23:21 |
| forumsmatthew | I stated my opinion there, and it is unchanged | 23:21 |
| wrtpeeps | Yes, you said "It is possible for intelligent people to disagree, even strongly, without resorting to mockery. Please learn how." | 23:21 |
| ubuntugeek | wrtpeeps: it was your tone that caused the infraction, it comes across as insulting. | 23:21 |
| wrtpeeps | Which, is a contradiction within intself | 23:21 |
| wrtpeeps | -n | 23:21 |
| jdong | I've looked over the original thread and the resolution center posts again... | 23:21 |
| talsemgeest | Ok, sorry guys but I have to go. | 23:22 |
| jdong | I do feel, wrtpeeps, your response was overly harsh and directly attacking than appropriate for answering the OP's question. | 23:22 |
| wrtpeeps | forumsmatthew: your reply to me was dismissive and mocking | 23:22 |
| lukjad007 | Bye talsemgeest | 23:22 |
| forumsmatthew | I answered that accusation in the thread. My opinion is unchanged. | 23:22 |
| jdong | furthermore, your attitude and choice of words in your resolution center post are not so great either | 23:23 |
| wrtpeeps | Can we assume therefore, that all future instances of people being called paranoid or using a tone displeasing to you that they will be similarly infracted? | 23:23 |
| jdong | if anyone calls anyone else "absolutely paranoid" and mocks them for asking a privacy question, yes, it's safe to say they will be infracted. | 23:23 |
| wrtpeeps | I will admit, it's a long time ago now and I am over it | 23:24 |
| wrtpeeps | but I do feel that it was unnecessary | 23:24 |
| jdong | as Matthew said, it's totally fine to disagree, even strongly disagree, with someone, or to find their opinion unreasonable. | 23:24 |
| jdong | but you express that by pointing out specific facts that contradict the OP's statement | 23:25 |
| ubuntugeek | wrtpeeps: Like most infractions they expire and yours did in this case. | 23:25 |
| jdong | not by name-calling and mocking... | 23:25 |
| jdong | a light infraction -- the lowest point-value one possible, was given for your post | 23:25 |
| jdong | it was meant as just a polite reminder to be careful of your tone. | 23:25 |
| wrtpeeps | speaking of mocking | 23:25 |
| ubuntugeek | jdong: +1 | 23:25 |
| wrtpeeps | is there any chance the pointless, childish, continual bashing of windows users could be moderated? (In Community chat) | 23:26 |
| wrtpeeps | especially the grossly uneducated posts. | 23:26 |
| ubuntugeek | wrtpeeps: please use the forum report option and a staff member will look into it | 23:26 |
| forumsmatthew | when you see it, please report the post | 23:26 |
| jdong | we do pay attention to such posts. | 23:26 |
| wrtpeeps | ok, thanks :) | 23:26 |
| Technoviking | wrtpeeps: many people who do that do get infraction for doing so | 23:26 |
| jdong | as matthew said, please report such posts if you feel they are out of line | 23:26 |
| wrtpeeps | Technoviking: good to know :) | 23:27 |
| jdong | we don't support such bashing of anything. | 23:27 |
| wrtpeeps | ok well, as I said, I am over my original problem, and the second one is fine too | 23:27 |
| wrtpeeps | so that's all from me folks :) | 23:27 |
| ubuntugeek | Ok great | 23:27 |
| jdong | ok, awesome | 23:27 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | ||
| jdong | thanks for coming to the meeting | 23:27 |
| wrtpeeps | no problem | 23:27 |
| jdong | ok, is Nicolas or anyone else from Brainstorm here to discuss the remaining item? | 23:28 |
| ubuntugeek | The first item we havent address since he isnt here. | 23:28 |
| ubuntugeek | We'll leave it on the agenda for next time | 23:28 |
| jdong | ok, sounds good. | 23:29 |
| ubuntugeek | Does anyone else have anything? | 23:29 |
| Joeb454 | I like it when meetings are this short ;) | 23:29 |
| JenkinBr | Joeb454: you missed it all | 23:29 |
| jdong | Joeb454: that's what... oh forget it. | 23:29 |
| forumsmatthew | thanks, everyone! | 23:29 |
| Joeb454 | I know :) | 23:29 |
| forumsmatthew | my wife is calling me | 23:30 |
| forumsmatthew | see you later! | 23:30 |
| ubuntugeek | Thanks everyone see you next month | 23:30 |
| Joeb454 | later forumsmatthew | 23:30 |
| jdong | bye! | 23:30 |
| Technoviking | happy holidays everyone | 23:30 |
| Joeb454 | bye ubuntugeek | 23:30 |
| ubuntugeek | -- end meeting | 23:30 |
| Joeb454 | and +1 Technoviking :D | 23:30 |
| jdong | :) | 23:30 |
| lukjad007 | Bye! | 23:30 |
| drubin | bye | 23:30 |
| JenkinBr | bye | 23:31 |
| ubuntugeek | bye everyone | 23:31 |
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