=== doko_ is now known as doko === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council [11:57] Hey [11:59] * persia peers about [12:00] Hello [12:00] #startmeeting [12:00] Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm. [12:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [12:01] First meeting we have had in 2 weeks, Travel, FOSSCamp and UDS blocked the last two. [12:01] lool, StevenK persia ogra you about? [12:02] (I think the Current meeting link is broken) [12:02] * StevenK is mostly here [12:02] ogra is VAC [12:02] StevenK: at the party? :) [12:02] lool: I'm home, but a large amount of beer was drunk [12:02] (By me) [12:02] * persia waves [12:03] lool, it is go in by date and page is there. [12:03] davidm: Yeah, got it [12:03] davidm: Just wanted to raise the current meeting link which I'm not sure how t ofix [12:04] There are a couple of things I'd like to discuss but I didn't write in the agenda [12:05] Basically boils down to deliverables for alphas and prioritization of our tasks [12:05] That is good, menu is now fixed [12:05] Thanks! [12:05] Just reload it. [12:06] Did we have any old business that was not UDS related? I don't think so. [12:06] Don't think so either [12:07] actually we had an alpha 1 item [12:07] Which was a good thing to raise by persia [12:07] Which was that? [12:07] persia: You raised before UDS the topic of alpha 1 testing [12:08] Oh :) That's obsolete. [12:08] And I think it was an excellent point; what I'd like to bring up today is... alpha 2 and 3 :) [12:08] We ought do some alpha 2 testing, but given the expected seed changes, I'm not expecting us to have something installable until Alpha 3. [12:08] Apparently ogra got the UMPC image built and some testing last night [12:09] Yes. [12:09] This makes me unhappy. [12:09] davidm: [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images perhaps? [12:09] I was hoping to ignore UMPC until we got the new one building [12:09] Now I have work to undo [12:09] StevenK: I think we will rename it back, wont we? [12:09] [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images [12:09] New Topic: alpha 2 and 3 images [12:10] lool: Rename it back? [12:10] StevenK: My understanding is that we'd change umpc to focus on UNR apps incrementally [12:10] StevenK: Rename to netbook [12:10] We still don't have ARM far enough to make images [12:10] We don't have a livefs builder yet [12:11] davidm: That's actually a question I had; for what devices should we be aiming ARM images at? I think we want to start with desktop ASAP, but we need working kernels [12:11] lool, Why does device matter? I thought we agreed no kernels on ARM images for now. [12:11] We do, we will have devices shortly that will be our target [12:11] In general, kernel issues are holding us on 3 fronts: lpia out of date, real hardware armel flavours (well we have n810), and virtual images (current doesn't work in qemu) [12:12] persia: We do need to test them and have kernels for them [12:12] persia: The fact that there's no kernel in them is just a technical format matter, but we will offer the kernel for download I guess [12:12] True. For that, we'll need the image-wedger program [12:12] StevenK: at least the work I did in support of ogra was needed anyway and will transfer easily to whatever the new name is [12:12] For "today" yes N810 is a good target, I hope by next week and certainly by Jan we will have different hardware. [12:13] StevenK, ogra: did you guys try the ubuntu n8x0 armel kernel on n8x0 already? [12:13] persia: err so does that mean you don't want d-i for armel? (I talked about this on the phone with David yesterday and I thought we still did even if there will certainly be some devices that can't install that way.) [12:13] * persia looks up the session notes [12:14] I think we do. [12:14] I even spent time fixing it. [12:14] d-i needs a kernel. Can perfectly well be several kernels with several d-i images resulting from them. [12:14] I'm fairly sure we want d-i, but I'm not sure about d-i kernel modules. [12:14] you can't run d-i without kernel bits. [12:14] We know some can't but we think most can, so we want it in my mind. [12:14] cjwatson: This is what we noted as first goal images in our discussion: [12:15] * Jaunty vfat images, kernel-less - live ubuntu-desktop - d-i ubuntu-server [12:15] (mobile-arm-images in gobby) [12:15] unless proven otherwise [12:15] I appreciate the targets but the last two are likely to be sort of backwards. Server-style images are a lot easier to get going [12:15] cjwatson: What we didn't really discuss (by lack of understanding I guess) was how the d-i images would look like; we knew about tftp boot support and the like [12:16] note that there are two separate issues that it's important not to conflate: the kernel d-i boots with, and the kernel it installs [12:16] (if any) [12:17] cjwatson: Our main concern was not having to build too many individual images, yet supporting many devices with as little kernels as possible but still a bunch [12:17] Well, and not actually including a full set of kernels and initrds for space reasons. [12:18] That was another reason indeed [12:18] cjwatson: I think we didn't really discuss who would do what or how the images would exactly be used / look like [12:18] cjwatson: I understand there are many ways to distribute / launch d-i [12:19] My plan was to kick livecd-rootfs to just not install a kernel [12:19] I'm just concerned that you're saying we shouldn't do work that to some extent has already been done [12:19] I see bug #308465 has all bits marked Fix Released. So di is no longer blocked is that correct? [12:19] Launchpad bug 308465 in uboot-mkimage "MIR for slugimage, uboot-mkimage and apex" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/308465 [12:19] StevenK: That part was the clear one for the desktop images; what we really didn't set straight is how exactly people would use the live images, how they'd combine with a kernel and all [12:19] Because this is highly device specific [12:20] davidm: right, just waiting for it to build now; I asked for a build score bump earlier [12:20] thanks cjwatson [12:20] cjwatson: What do you mean we shouldn't do work? [12:20] lool: well, there's already a set of kernels, d-i is already set up to use them ... and people are saying "no kernels on ARM images for now". So as an installer guy I am hopelessly confused about what y'all actually want [12:21] I think until we have some actual real hardware we are going to have questions (confusion), by the new year (possibly as early as next week) we will have some hardware. [12:21] cjwatson, Looking through the notes in the mobile-arm-images gobby document, I believe you're not alone [12:21] cjwatson: Ok; the concerns is that there are like let's say 7 or 8 planned kernel flavours; what are you building per kernel right now and what would you recommend we build don't build? [12:22] Once we have that we can do some actual testing and remove confusion. [12:22] lool: I'm just building d-i for all the available kernels [12:22] cjwatson: What I think is that the image format will depend on the target device [12:22] which I think makes sense until I hear otherwise [12:22] cjwatson: If you don't mind doing that for 7/8 kernels that's fine [12:22] cjwatson: Sure, but do we make images for 8 kernel flavours? [12:22] cjwatson, From what I'm seeing, I think we want d-i bits for all the available kernels, although those might not actually appear in the downloaded images [12:23] StevenK: in many cases I expect that the stuff d-i spits out will be sufficient / all you can actually use anyway [12:24] cjwatson: I have an example which perhaps shows how unclear it is to me what output d-i should produce for all 7/8 kernels: I have a thecus N2100; it doesn't have any display, so it should be installed over SSH; to install is, one points the pre-loaded original linux install at a "firmware upgrade file" which is just a d-i image signed specially [12:25] cjwatson: We probably want to offer such an image to allow installation on these devices, but this is only needed for this device, only for a kernel flavour [12:25] separate but related issue: cjwatson on our call yesterday you described a method of getting around the issue of the device that will not boot without jtag for updates, can you explain here again please (for the record) thanks [12:25] * persia notes that d-i as a set of components differs from a "d-i image" which is a misnomer for the alternate images. [12:26] (in my case, the signed image contains a kernel and an initrd) [12:26] persia: and from a "d-i image" which is one of the objects d-i spits out that lives in archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/DIST/main/installer-ARCH/ [12:27] cjwatson: Say a device supports installation from USB mass storage; are we going to provide a vfat image suitable to be dd-ed on USB key? Does d-i output that for all kernel flavours? [12:27] lool: well, d-i's perfectly capable of producing different form factors for different kernels, and indeed I think already does [12:27] ./iop32x/netboot.cfg:10:# Thecus N2100 [12:28] i.e. it already deals with your device [12:28] but just for one kernel [12:28] (hmm no installer-armel yet on http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/jaunty/main/) [12:28] davidm: for that, I suggested that we could install kboot, which is a Linux kernel with an initramfs that parses a bootloader-a-like configuration file and then kexecs the real image [12:29] I think the new generation of kboot (which we use on ps3) is petitboot [12:29] but same basic idea [12:29] lool: awaiting build [12:29] cjwatson: Ok; so basically we aimed at not building useless images and not building a huge number of big images; if d-i is already well behaved enough that just enabling it to build on all the kernel flavours will DTRT, that's perfect :) [12:29] lool: d-i was depwait due to things needing to be promoting [12:29] arf petitboot [12:29] lool: I'd hope so, quite a bit of work has been done in Debian on d-i/arm [12:30] cjwatson, thanks. [12:30] lool: ? [12:30] cjwatson: arf == lol [12:30] Just found the name cute [12:32] ah [12:32] OK so we don't have images for ARM yet, but should have one for Alpha 3 [12:32] We have the UMPC image that will be renamed by Alpha 3 [12:33] We have MID images -- albeit with 2.6.27 [12:33] And no d-i due to the the kernel, either [12:33] davidm: Concerning the ARM images, which one should we test in priority? [12:33] UMPC was given some testing last night, can someone else besides ogra grab it and do some more testing please? [12:33] s/one/ones [12:34] davidm: Ok; I'll take that [12:34] lool, for now I think N810 as everyone has the device, as soon as everyone has the next device we use it. [12:35] * davidm lool to grab the UMPC image and test. [12:35] [action] lool to grab the UMPC image and test. [12:35] ACTION received: lool to grab the UMPC image and test. [12:35] Emmet doesn't have a N810, but ok [12:35] (or do you?) [12:35] * davidm grumbles about forgetting mootbot commands [12:35] No, they aren't sold here. I can go get something similar if required, but am happy to wait [12:36] persia, I'll send you one, I was under the impression that you had one from UDS [12:36] I have a spare sitting here on my desk. [12:37] That works too :) [12:37] OK anything more on the topic of Alpha 2/3? [12:37] Well still related is netbook stuff [12:37] We need to work on merging UNR packages more, enabling them by default and all [12:37] Do we have an owner for this work already? [12:37] I'd suggest ogra [12:38] No actually, lool who is best for this? I have a list of packages. [12:38] We need someone with a netbook! :) [12:38] * persia will see about reclaiming the Kohjinsha [12:38] Well the Q1 Ultra will work for this until we have purchased hardware. [12:39] davidm: I'm tempted to think most people could do it, but we should keep an eye of the work load of each of us; perhaps we need to list what we all will be working on this cycle explicitely and look at moving unassigned stuff at this point? [12:39] I would like doing it, but I'm not sure I'm not overcommitting [12:39] OK I'll take the action of making a wiki page with the list of packages that need to be merged/updated [12:40] Hmm I thought there was one [12:40] is there? [12:40] I don't have the URL for it. [12:40] Ah no, we have a wiki text for it though [12:40] Should just be a matter of copy-paste [12:40] davidm: Throw me an action for sorting out the seeds, since I've done most of it locally [12:41] StevenK, lets change the topic to seeds first, then make the action [12:41] So perhaps a good course of actions is a) everybody to do drafting on pet specs and set drafter and assignee b) we review as a group what everybody does and assign the remaining important specs? [12:42] I frankly don't have a good overview of who will be working on what; just what I remember from UDS [12:43] * persia claims all the otherwise unclaimed specs [12:43] (at least as drafter) [12:43] OK I'm going to close current topic and open a new one, updating UDS specs [12:43] [topic] updating UDS spec's with results from UDS [12:43] New Topic: updating UDS spec's with results from UDS [12:44] Hmm looks like we wont have a meeting next week... [12:44] I've been going through notes and gobby documents, and expect to be able to dump stuff in the next 2-3 days into most of the specs. [12:44] Many people are half-VAC this week or next [12:45] It means postponing this review to January which is late [12:45] [action] lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th [12:45] ACTION received: lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th [12:45] [action] persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those. [12:45] ACTION received: persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those. [12:45] I agree but with the late UDS we don't have a choice [12:46] lool, ^^ [12:46] (I wish I'd think of this last week and set it as a goal for today but that would have been probably tight) [12:47] with travel and such I think impossible and there is no meeting next week or the week after. [12:47] OK anymore on seeds? [12:47] OK anymore on specs [12:48] that is [12:48] I have a question on images if I'm allowed to jump back a second on the previous topic [12:48] Ok [12:48] StevenK, cjwatson: will we have a livefs builder for armel? [12:49] [topic] seed status [12:49] New Topic: seed status [12:49] We will have one, yes. [12:49] StevenK: Is that planned for before alpha 3? [12:49] I have no idea. [12:49] I'll use it when it's configured [12:50] lool, can you take the action to cut and paste the UNT text to a wiki page? [12:50] UNT? UNR? [12:50] Sure [12:51] Yes, fumble fingered sorry [12:51] [action] lool to move UNR text to wiki page. [12:51] ACTION received: lool to move UNR text to wiki page. [12:51] StevenK, seed status? You have an update? [12:52] I have most of the changes made locally. [12:52] I'll go through the unr seed and see if any changes need to be made [12:52] [action] StevenK to sort out seed changes [12:52] ACTION received: StevenK to sort out seed changes [12:55] Ah you wanted to replace the umpc seed wholesale with the unr one [12:55] Not exactly [12:57] Any other topics for today? [12:57] mobile-applications [12:57] Just the usual status updates, but we are out of time [12:57] (We might be running out of time) [12:58] Ah, then none :) [12:58] we'll have to post the status in the email [12:58] actually we have time [12:58] I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. [12:58] persia, good [12:58] I don't see any meeting after ours today [12:58] [action] persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. [12:58] ACTION received: persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting. [12:58] No, Desktop changed the time, and moved to a different channel. Still [12:59] OK lets do a quick status and then end the meeting [12:59] [topic] status report (quick) [12:59] New Topic: status report (quick) [12:59] Who's quick? [12:59] persia, ? [12:59] UDS, post-UDS braindump & notes review. [12:59] (not yet complete, nor posted) [13:00] OK [13:00] StevenK, ? [13:00] UDS, post-UDS review/spec writing, armel [13:01] lool, ? [13:01] SRUs, MIRs, general catchup, doctor, poked some ARM stuff [13:01] davidm: what about you? [13:01] Feeling any better? [13:02] post UDS travel, paperwork, and setting interviews [13:02] Still have chest cold I think. [13:02] Sorry about that :-/ [13:02] Got is as I got back on Monday. [13:02] So I hope it clears soonish [13:02] * StevenK thinks he managed to avoid the lool-cold [13:02] * lool sends a letter to .au [13:03] hugs and kisses from France! [13:03] * StevenK stamps it Return to Sender, unopened [13:03] OK I'm going to close the meeting, StevenK you have the action to post weekly report tomorrow [13:03] * StevenK nods [13:03] davidm: thanks for chairing [13:03] #endmeeting [13:03] Meeting finished at 07:03. [13:03] lool, thanks [13:03] When I recover from the coma I'm about to fall into [13:03] I wish you people a merry xmas next week [13:03] Indeed === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council [14:01] Who's here for the Java meeting? [14:01] o/ [14:02] Are we expecting ludovicc, slytherin, or robilad? [14:03] I don't think ludovicc will join us, don't know for the others [14:04] slytherin doesn't appear on freenode, and robilad seems to be on an unusually small number of channels, so I'm guessing it's logging-only. [14:05] So, roadmap: anything exciting for maven? [14:05] ludivic is still working on the tools [14:06] We've been discussing for Torsten Werner (debian-java) about integration [14:07] he is following a slightly different model: revisiting all Java library packages and provide a Maven-compatible view of them [14:07] i.e. /usr/share/java-maven-repo/path/to/artifactname/versionname/artifact-version.jar [14:08] rather than /usr/share/java/artifact-version.jar [14:08] The two approaches are not mutually exclusive [14:08] though I would have thought going for /usr/share/java-maven-repo things would require some policy decisions [14:09] So we're likely to end up with a hybrid, and finally with just syncs? [14:09] I'd agree that it would probably need some policy changes, but pkg-java can do that :) [14:09] yep. === davmor2 is now known as davmor2-away [14:10] Anything else you want on the meeting records for maven this week? [14:10] Another concern raised is that asking maven to map to slightly-different versions of JARs is dangerous [14:10] I'll explain a bit [14:10] API/ABI type issues? [14:11] maven allows Java developers to pick a very specific version number for every JAR [14:11] We, on the other hand, provide just one version [14:12] so when maven asks for plexus-utils-1.0.7_alpha7, we can give it 1.0.7_alpha2, or alpha10 [14:12] there is no API/ABI protection whatsoever in version numbers [14:13] while this is reasonable for small software stacks... it can quickly become a problem with large ones [14:13] which are usually those using maven :) [14:13] I don't really know how we can solve that. [14:13] while still maintaining some common libraries [14:14] Presumably that's something that can be improved as developers learn a more modular approach, as expected with the Java 7 transition? [14:14] Certainly not quickly, but in time? [14:14] yes, we might need some workaround in between [14:15] More than just our standard build/test/patch/report model? [14:15] something like shipping the expected JAR stack as part of the binaries, for complex software [14:15] We do that now sometimes, but it's a bit of a security nightmare. [14:16] that may be preferable to testing nightmare + losing JavaEE certifications [14:17] anyway, I wanted to raise the issue because I think the common libraries model doesn't fit too well with the current Java world [14:17] Right. Generally, the process has been to try to use system libraries, and bundle when they didn't work. [14:17] No, it certainly doesn't fit with current cultural practices, although this is (slowly) changing. [14:17] I'm sure robilad could provide some insights on the direction we are heading to [14:17] that's all [14:18] Next item is removing Java 5 from Jaunty. [14:19] There was a discussion about this with Sun representatives at UDS, and given the expected date for end-of-support for Java 5 from Sun, we will want to get this completed for Jaunty (and arguably may have wanted it for intrepid). [14:20] Those users who need Java 5 beyond end-of-support can use 8.04.x or 8.10, but there won't be any more updates (even bugfix) soon enough. [14:20] so whats the next version of java from sun? [14:20] We still need to get the spec done, and get it approved, etc. [14:21] zul, Next spec is Java 7. I'm not sure of the exact schedule for Sun JDK 5, Sun JDK 6, OpenJDK 6, or OpenJDK 7 builds. [14:23] That's it for roadmap. [14:24] On an administrative note, the next two Thursdays fall on days considered holidays in many places. I'll probably be around for the first, but not the second. Is anyone expecting to attend a Java Team meeting on those days? [14:24] persia: not me [14:24] Well then, I'm not holding official meetings on those days :) [14:24] That's it. Have a good week. [14:25] Thanks, you too :) === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council === fenris_ is now known as e-jat === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === davmor2-away is now known as davmor2 === cjwatson1 is now known as cjwatson === asac_ is now known as asac === lukjad007 is now known as lol === lol is now known as Guest32821 === Guest32821 is now known as lukjad007 === lukjad007 is now known as forestpixie_ === forestpixie_ is now known as lukjad007 [22:44] Sorry, forgot to log out. === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Dec 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council [22:53] Hey Matthew [22:54] hello! [22:57] afternoon [22:57] How's it going? [22:57] I'm cold. It's 57 (F) here. [22:57] 25 here. [22:57] going good [22:58] 23 F [22:58] I'm a cold wimp...it's all those years in the desert [22:58] on both sides of the Atlantic [22:58] Heh. Well, I like winter. [22:59] 14F [22:59] It makes most of my adversaries dumb [22:59] I wondered when jdong would be arriving. [22:59] hey jdong [22:59] jdong, welcome! [22:59] hi everyone :) [22:59] I got the date right this time! [22:59] Hi [23:00] I'm pretty sure Kiwi isn't coming. Since the rest of us are here, shall we get started? [23:00] Let's go ahead and get started [23:00] lol [23:00] The agenda is located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda [23:00] I have only got a hour, got to change tapes before I go home :( [23:00] So why isn't kiwi coming? [23:00] Should be quick Mike [23:00] talsemgeest: odd time for him [23:01] 12.PM? [23:01] He works [23:01] * drubin catches up the logs [23:01] Ah [23:01] NicolsDeschilre are you here to discuss the brainstorm agenda item? [23:01] Hey talsemgeest, will you be able to stay? [23:01] Maybe another 20 minutes [23:02] Ok, we'll come back to the first Item then [23:02] Okay. If you go, I'll bring up your point [23:02] The second item "The strikethrough tags [s][/s] do not work in the Forum" [23:02] brb [23:02] This isn't a native bbcode in vbulletin, however, I just added support for it :) [23:02] sweet! [23:03] so, it's in? [23:03] Yes, its in [23:03] Thanks you! [23:03] thank you [23:03] Working and tested [s]test[/s] will strike [23:03] coolness [23:03] On a related note, I believe [hr] is nonexistent or mod-only? (Just wondering) [23:03] Awesome [23:04] Snowflake, no plans for that one we try to keep it limited. [23:04] Ah. [23:04] Snowflake: hr as in horizontal rule? [23:04] drubin: Yes. [23:04] ubuntugeek: maybe we should try using the del tag? [23:04] http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_del.asp [23:04] ubuntugeek: thanks for moving the meeting time. [23:04] is technically deprecated [23:04] Next, on the agenda we have "Superfluous moderation on the forums" by wrtpeeps. Are they here to address their item? [23:05] There isn't much detail on this item, so I'm not sure what its pertaining to. Anyone else? [23:05] jdong: technically we *should* be only using css for this stuff [23:06] ubuntugeek: I believe it comes from one of the res center topics. [23:06] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267 [23:06] drudin: we do not allow html code directly in posts [23:06] he was unhappy with an infraction that Kiwi gave and I supported, or the other way around [23:06] Before wrtpeeps gets flooded, I send a message to him in the hopes that he is paying attention... [23:06] ubuntugeek: I was just refering that [s] should apply a style rather then html code [23:07] drubin; that makes things more complicated [23:07] well with regard to wrtpeep's situation the existing FC replies sum up my opinion and his replies speak for themself. [23:07] ubuntugeek: like with all things. :) Just saying it would be the ideal [23:07] * lukjad007 will be right back. [23:07] My opinion is unchanged from what I said in the thread you linked [23:08] I agree with the moderation and infraction that took place in this situation [23:08] I don't see anything that needs to be done. The infraction was appropriate and wrtpeeps is not here to say otherwise. === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council [23:08] jdong: agreed [23:08] agreed...and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Superfluous?jss=0 [23:09] agreed [23:09] OK lets move on, if wrtpeeps shows up we can discuss it further. But the FC is in agreement with the actions taken. [23:09] Next, The bump thread Feel that they are over loading the forums unnecessarily. Drubin, you are up. [23:10] give me a sec writing it down :) [23:10] No problem, take your time. [23:11] We state that this is first and formost a tech support forum, yet we have this thread. I am not saying we need to get ride of these light hearted threads I am seriously wondering the extrea load they impose in the db is this nessary considering all the issues we were having at the time [23:11] btw the issues seemed to have calmed down a little bit [23:11] well I think the "issues" calming down is mere coincidence. [23:12] jdong: agreed [23:12] I feel that any overuse of the forum resources is worth it for the friendships that are made in that thread. It is a great place to get to know your fellow ubuntu-forumers. [23:12] while I absolutely agree this up-and-down flakiness of the forum needs to be resolved and looked at seriously, I don't feel a single long thread is the cause. [23:12] er, hi? [23:12] the extra posts might slow down the quries on a whole searching/indexing of the db [23:12] jdong: +1 [23:12] vBulletin doesn't really work in a way where long threads are more "expensive" to access. [23:12] drubin: I can assure that that bump thread isn't causing any load. [23:12] wrtpeeps, we will get back to your issue shortly, after we finish this on [23:13] *one [23:13] that being said, I think we do need to take a look at why on earth we have so many proxy errors. [23:13] ubuntugeek: any guesses? [23:13] It's configured wrong? [23:13] ubuntugeek: You have direct access to the DB's/code I would love to know the explained query when viewing the bump thread how many rows it examines [23:13] gremlins? [23:13] hold on til I go refresh myself on what my issue was [23:13] jdong: Someday you'll have to tell me how the database works (if you can). I'm curious how that operates. [23:14] Has it been narrowed down to a hardware or a software problem? [23:14] drubin: no more than it costs to retrieve any other 50 posts or 25 or whatever you have per page. [23:14] drubin: Alot of the queries are cached [23:14] lukjad007: it's software. [23:14] drubin: by vbulletin [23:14] ubuntugeek: Ok topic over. [23:15] :) [23:15] drubin: when you pull of up a page of the thread its only pulling the posts on that page [23:15] I do think there's something weird going on with the proxy though.... [23:15] jdong, +1 [23:15] jdong: +1 [23:15] there was a phase where basically 1 of 10 pages end in proxy error [23:15] drubin; it doesn't prefetch all 1000 pages [23:15] ubuntugeek: Ye I know that. but I wanted to know the means for "searching" for those 20 posts [23:16] * drubin is trying to find his post explaining this [23:16] drubin: hashtable. [23:16] constant access time [23:16] it's not an issue for vBulletin to handle [23:17] ye it should be handeled on the DB's side [23:17] but as with all design/programming there are more then one way to skin a cat [23:17] I was wondering how this way was handeling threads with huge amounts of posts... [23:18] Lets move on to wrtpeeps agenda item. I think we established that the bump thread isnt causing any problems. [23:18] +1 [23:18] Thank you ubuntugeek [23:18] wrtpeeps you are up [23:18] +1 [23:19] ok [23:19] what exactly do you want me to say? Haven't been to one of these gatherings before [23:19] give us a quick description of the problem, link to relevant posts, and why you disagree with the decision. [23:19] I assume you put your item on the agenda because you feel you were wrongly given an infraction [23:19] Ok, so firstly apologies as I am unprepared as I wasn't aware this meeting was taking place now [23:20] but yes, I received what quite frankly was a pathetic infraction from KiwiNZ i believe. [23:20] For calling someone "paranoid" I got accused of "insulting other members" [23:21] This was, in my opinion, a totally unnecessary intervention by an administrator. [23:21] we all looked earlier, but for the record, here is the Resolution Center thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267 [23:21] ty [23:21] I stated my opinion there, and it is unchanged [23:21] Yes, you said "It is possible for intelligent people to disagree, even strongly, without resorting to mockery. Please learn how." [23:21] wrtpeeps: it was your tone that caused the infraction, it comes across as insulting. [23:21] Which, is a contradiction within intself [23:21] -n [23:21] I've looked over the original thread and the resolution center posts again... [23:22] Ok, sorry guys but I have to go. [23:22] I do feel, wrtpeeps, your response was overly harsh and directly attacking than appropriate for answering the OP's question. [23:22] forumsmatthew: your reply to me was dismissive and mocking [23:22] Bye talsemgeest [23:22] I answered that accusation in the thread. My opinion is unchanged. [23:23] furthermore, your attitude and choice of words in your resolution center post are not so great either [23:23] Can we assume therefore, that all future instances of people being called paranoid or using a tone displeasing to you that they will be similarly infracted? [23:23] if anyone calls anyone else "absolutely paranoid" and mocks them for asking a privacy question, yes, it's safe to say they will be infracted. [23:24] I will admit, it's a long time ago now and I am over it [23:24] but I do feel that it was unnecessary [23:24] as Matthew said, it's totally fine to disagree, even strongly disagree, with someone, or to find their opinion unreasonable. [23:25] but you express that by pointing out specific facts that contradict the OP's statement [23:25] wrtpeeps: Like most infractions they expire and yours did in this case. [23:25] not by name-calling and mocking... [23:25] a light infraction -- the lowest point-value one possible, was given for your post [23:25] it was meant as just a polite reminder to be careful of your tone. [23:25] speaking of mocking [23:25] jdong: +1 [23:26] is there any chance the pointless, childish, continual bashing of windows users could be moderated? (In Community chat) [23:26] especially the grossly uneducated posts. [23:26] wrtpeeps: please use the forum report option and a staff member will look into it [23:26] when you see it, please report the post [23:26] we do pay attention to such posts. [23:26] ok, thanks :) [23:26] wrtpeeps: many people who do that do get infraction for doing so [23:26] as matthew said, please report such posts if you feel they are out of line [23:27] Technoviking: good to know :) [23:27] we don't support such bashing of anything. [23:27] ok well, as I said, I am over my original problem, and the second one is fine too [23:27] so that's all from me folks :) [23:27] Ok great [23:27] ok, awesome === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership [23:27] thanks for coming to the meeting [23:27] no problem [23:28] ok, is Nicolas or anyone else from Brainstorm here to discuss the remaining item? [23:28] The first item we havent address since he isnt here. [23:28] We'll leave it on the agenda for next time [23:29] ok, sounds good. [23:29] Does anyone else have anything? [23:29] I like it when meetings are this short ;) [23:29] Joeb454: you missed it all [23:29] Joeb454: that's what... oh forget it. [23:29] thanks, everyone! [23:29] I know :) [23:30] my wife is calling me [23:30] see you later! [23:30] Thanks everyone see you next month [23:30] later forumsmatthew [23:30] bye! [23:30] happy holidays everyone [23:30] bye ubuntugeek [23:30] -- end meeting [23:30] and +1 Technoviking :D [23:30] :) [23:30] Bye! [23:30] bye [23:31] bye [23:31] bye everyone