[11:57] <lool> Hey
[11:59]  * persia peers about
[12:00] <davidm> Hello
[12:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[12:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:01] <davidm> First meeting we have had in 2 weeks, Travel, FOSSCamp and UDS blocked the last two.
[12:01] <davidm> lool, StevenK persia ogra you about?
[12:02] <lool> (I think the Current meeting link is broken)
[12:02]  * StevenK is mostly here
[12:02] <lool> ogra is VAC
[12:02] <lool> StevenK: at the party?  :)
[12:02] <StevenK> lool: I'm home, but a large amount of beer was drunk
[12:02] <StevenK> (By me)
[12:02]  * persia waves
[12:03] <davidm> lool, it is go in by date and page is there.
[12:03] <lool> davidm: Yeah, got it
[12:03] <lool> davidm: Just wanted to raise the current meeting link which I'm not sure how t ofix
[12:04] <lool> There are a couple of things I'd like to discuss but I didn't write in the agenda
[12:05] <lool> Basically boils down to deliverables for alphas and prioritization of our tasks
[12:05] <davidm> That is good, menu is now fixed
[12:05] <lool> Thanks!
[12:05] <davidm> Just reload it.
[12:06] <davidm> Did we have any old business that was not UDS related?  I don't think so.
[12:06] <lool> Don't think so either
[12:07] <lool> actually we had an alpha 1 item
[12:07] <lool> Which was a good thing to raise by persia
[12:07] <persia> Which was that?
[12:07] <lool> persia: You raised before UDS the topic of alpha 1 testing
[12:08] <persia> Oh :)  That's obsolete.
[12:08] <lool> And I think it was an excellent point; what I'd like to bring up today is... alpha 2 and 3 :)
[12:08] <persia> We ought do some alpha 2 testing, but given the expected seed changes, I'm not expecting us to have something installable until Alpha 3.
[12:08] <davidm> Apparently ogra got the UMPC image built and some testing last night
[12:09] <StevenK> Yes.
[12:09] <StevenK> This makes me unhappy.
[12:09] <lool> davidm: [topic] alpha 2 and 3 images perhaps?
[12:09] <StevenK> I was hoping to ignore UMPC until we got the new one building
[12:09] <StevenK> Now I have work to undo
[12:09] <lool> StevenK: I think we will rename it back, wont we?
[12:09] <davidm> [topic]  alpha 2 and 3 images
[12:09] <MootBot> New Topic:   alpha 2 and 3 images
[12:10] <StevenK> lool: Rename it back?
[12:10] <lool> StevenK: My understanding is that we'd change umpc to focus on UNR apps incrementally
[12:10] <lool> StevenK: Rename to netbook
[12:10] <davidm> We still don't have ARM far enough to make images
[12:10] <StevenK> We don't have a livefs builder yet
[12:11] <lool> davidm: That's actually a question I had; for what devices should we be aiming ARM images at?  I think we want to start with desktop ASAP, but we need working kernels
[12:11] <persia> lool, Why does device matter?  I thought we agreed no kernels on ARM images for now.
[12:11] <davidm> We do, we will have devices shortly that will be our target
[12:11] <lool> In general, kernel issues are holding us on 3 fronts: lpia out of date, real hardware armel flavours (well we have n810), and virtual images (current doesn't work in qemu)
[12:12] <lool> persia: We do need to test them and have kernels for them
[12:12] <lool> persia: The fact that there's no kernel in them is just a technical format matter, but we will offer the kernel for download I guess
[12:12] <persia> True.  For that, we'll need the image-wedger program
[12:12] <cjwatson> StevenK: at least the work I did in support of ogra was needed anyway and will transfer easily to whatever the new name is
[12:12] <davidm> For "today" yes N810 is a good target, I hope by next week and certainly by Jan we will have different hardware.
[12:13] <lool> StevenK, ogra: did you guys try the ubuntu n8x0 armel kernel on n8x0 already?
[12:13] <cjwatson> persia: err so does that mean you don't want d-i for armel? (I talked about this on the phone with David yesterday and I thought we still did even if there will certainly be some devices that can't install that way.)
[12:13]  * persia looks up the session notes
[12:14] <StevenK> I think we do.
[12:14] <StevenK> I even spent time fixing it.
[12:14] <cjwatson> d-i needs a kernel. Can perfectly well be several kernels with several d-i images resulting from them.
[12:14] <persia> I'm fairly sure we want d-i, but I'm not sure about d-i kernel modules.
[12:14] <cjwatson> you can't run d-i without kernel bits.
[12:14] <davidm> We know some can't but we think most can, so we want it in my mind.
[12:14] <lool> cjwatson: This is what we noted as first goal images in our discussion:
[12:15] <lool> * Jaunty vfat images, kernel-less - live ubuntu-desktop - d-i ubuntu-server
[12:15] <lool> (mobile-arm-images in gobby)
[12:15] <davidm> unless proven otherwise
[12:15] <cjwatson> I appreciate the targets but the last two are likely to be sort of backwards. Server-style images are a lot easier to get going
[12:15] <lool> cjwatson: What we didn't really discuss (by lack of understanding I guess) was how the d-i images would look like; we knew about tftp boot support and the like
[12:16] <cjwatson> note that there are two separate issues that it's important not to conflate: the kernel d-i boots with, and the kernel it installs
[12:16] <cjwatson> (if any)
[12:17] <lool> cjwatson: Our main concern was not having to build too many individual images, yet supporting many devices with as little kernels as possible but still a bunch
[12:17] <persia> Well, and not actually including a full set of kernels and initrds for space reasons.
[12:18] <lool> That was another reason indeed
[12:18] <lool> cjwatson: I think we didn't really discuss who would do what or how the images would exactly be used / look like
[12:18] <lool> cjwatson: I understand there are many ways to distribute / launch d-i
[12:19] <StevenK> My plan was to kick livecd-rootfs to just not install a kernel
[12:19] <cjwatson> I'm just concerned that you're saying we shouldn't do work that to some extent has already been done
[12:19] <davidm> I see bug #308465 has all bits marked Fix Released. So di is no longer blocked is that correct?
[12:19] <lool> StevenK: That part was the clear one for the desktop images; what we really didn't set straight is how exactly people would use the live images, how they'd combine with a kernel and all
[12:19] <lool> Because this is highly device specific
[12:20] <cjwatson> davidm: right, just waiting for it to build now; I asked for a build score bump earlier
[12:20] <davidm> thanks cjwatson
[12:20] <lool> cjwatson: What do you mean we shouldn't do work?
[12:20] <cjwatson> lool: well, there's already a set of kernels, d-i is already set up to use them ... and people are saying "no kernels on ARM images for now". So as an installer guy I am hopelessly confused about what y'all actually want
[12:21] <davidm> I think until we have some actual real hardware we are going to have questions (confusion), by the new year (possibly as early as next week) we will have some hardware.
[12:21] <persia> cjwatson, Looking through the notes in the mobile-arm-images gobby document, I believe you're not alone
[12:21] <lool> cjwatson: Ok; the concerns is that there are like let's say 7 or 8 planned kernel flavours; what are you building per kernel right now and what would you recommend we build don't build?
[12:22] <davidm> Once we have that we can do some actual testing and remove confusion.
[12:22] <cjwatson> lool: I'm just building d-i for all the available kernels
[12:22] <lool> cjwatson: What I think is that the image format will depend on the target device
[12:22] <cjwatson> which I think makes sense until I hear otherwise
[12:22] <lool> cjwatson: If you don't mind doing that for 7/8 kernels that's fine
[12:22] <StevenK> cjwatson: Sure, but do we make images for 8 kernel flavours?
[12:22] <persia> cjwatson, From what I'm seeing, I think we want d-i bits for all the available kernels, although those might not actually appear in the downloaded images
[12:23] <cjwatson> StevenK: in many cases I expect that the stuff d-i spits out will be sufficient / all you can actually use anyway
[12:24] <lool> cjwatson: I have an example which perhaps shows how unclear it is to me what output d-i should produce for all 7/8 kernels: I have a thecus N2100; it doesn't have any display, so it should be installed over SSH; to install is, one points the pre-loaded original linux install at a "firmware upgrade file" which is just a d-i image signed specially
[12:25] <lool> cjwatson: We probably want to offer such an image to allow installation on these devices, but this is only needed for this device, only for a kernel flavour
[12:25] <davidm> separate but related issue: cjwatson on our call yesterday you described a method of getting around the issue of the device that will not boot without jtag for updates, can you explain here again please (for the record) thanks
[12:25]  * persia notes that d-i as a set of components differs from a "d-i image" which is a misnomer for the alternate images.
[12:26] <lool> (in my case, the signed image contains a kernel and an initrd)
[12:26] <cjwatson> persia: and from a "d-i image" which is one of the objects d-i spits out that lives in archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/DIST/main/installer-ARCH/
[12:27] <lool> cjwatson: Say a device supports installation from USB mass storage; are we going to provide a vfat image suitable to be dd-ed on USB key?  Does d-i output that for all kernel flavours?
[12:27] <cjwatson> lool: well, d-i's perfectly capable of producing different form factors for different kernels, and indeed I think already does
[12:27] <cjwatson> ./iop32x/netboot.cfg:10:# Thecus N2100
[12:28] <cjwatson> i.e. it already deals with your device
[12:28] <cjwatson> but just for one kernel
[12:28] <lool> (hmm no installer-armel yet on http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/dists/jaunty/main/)
[12:28] <cjwatson> davidm: for that, I suggested that we could install kboot, which is a Linux kernel with an initramfs that parses a bootloader-a-like configuration file and then kexecs the real image
[12:29] <cjwatson> I think the new generation of kboot (which we use on ps3) is petitboot
[12:29] <cjwatson> but same basic idea
[12:29] <cjwatson> lool: awaiting build
[12:29] <lool> cjwatson: Ok; so basically we aimed at not building useless images and not building a huge number of big images; if d-i is already well behaved enough that just enabling it to build on all the kernel flavours will DTRT, that's perfect :)
[12:29] <StevenK> lool: d-i was depwait due to things needing to be promoting
[12:29] <lool> arf petitboot
[12:29] <cjwatson> lool: I'd hope so, quite a bit of work has been done in Debian on d-i/arm
[12:30] <davidm> cjwatson, thanks.
[12:30] <cjwatson> lool: ?
[12:30] <lool> cjwatson: arf == lol
[12:30] <lool> Just found the name cute
[12:32] <cjwatson> ah
[12:32] <davidm> OK so we don't have images for ARM yet, but should have one for Alpha 3
[12:32] <davidm> We have the UMPC image that will be renamed by Alpha 3
[12:33] <StevenK> We have MID images -- albeit with 2.6.27
[12:33] <StevenK> And no d-i due to the the kernel, either
[12:33] <lool> davidm: Concerning the ARM images, which one should we test in priority?
[12:33] <davidm> UMPC was given some testing last night, can someone else besides ogra grab it and do some more testing please?
[12:33] <lool> s/one/ones
[12:34] <lool> davidm: Ok; I'll take that
[12:34] <davidm> lool, for now I think N810 as everyone has the device, as soon as everyone has the next device we use it.
[12:35]  * davidm lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
[12:35] <davidm> [action] lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
[12:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
[12:35] <lool> Emmet doesn't have a N810, but ok
[12:35] <lool> (or do you?)
[12:35]  * davidm grumbles about forgetting mootbot commands
[12:35] <persia> No, they aren't sold here.  I can go get something similar if required, but am happy to wait
[12:36] <davidm> persia, I'll send you one, I was under the impression that you had one from UDS
[12:36] <davidm> I have a spare sitting here on my desk.
[12:37] <persia> That works too :)
[12:37] <davidm> OK anything more on the topic of Alpha 2/3?
[12:37] <lool> Well still related is netbook stuff
[12:37] <lool> We need to work on merging UNR packages more, enabling them by default and all
[12:37] <lool> Do we have an owner for this work already?
[12:37] <StevenK> I'd suggest ogra
[12:38] <davidm> No actually, lool who is best for this?  I have a list of packages.
[12:38] <lool> We need someone with a netbook!  :)
[12:38]  * persia will see about reclaiming the Kohjinsha
[12:38] <davidm> Well the Q1 Ultra will work for this until we have purchased hardware.
[12:39] <lool> davidm: I'm tempted to think most people could do it, but we should keep an eye of the work load of each of us; perhaps we need to list what we all will be working on this cycle explicitely and look at moving unassigned stuff at this point?
[12:39] <lool> I would like doing it, but I'm not sure I'm not overcommitting
[12:39] <davidm> OK I'll take the action of making a wiki page with the list of packages that need to be merged/updated
[12:40] <lool> Hmm I thought there was one
[12:40] <davidm> is there?
[12:40] <davidm> I don't have the URL for it.
[12:40] <lool> Ah no, we have a wiki text for it though
[12:40] <lool> Should just be a matter of copy-paste
[12:40] <StevenK> davidm: Throw me an action for sorting out the seeds, since I've done most of it locally
[12:41] <davidm> StevenK, lets change the topic to seeds first, then make the action
[12:41] <lool> So perhaps a good course of actions is a) everybody to do drafting on pet specs and set drafter and assignee b) we review as a group what everybody does and assign the remaining important specs?
[12:42] <lool> I frankly don't have a good overview of who will be working on what; just what I remember from UDS
[12:43]  * persia claims all the otherwise unclaimed specs
[12:43] <persia> (at least as drafter)
[12:43] <davidm> OK I'm going to close current topic and open a new one, updating UDS specs
[12:43] <davidm> [topic] updating UDS spec's with results from UDS
[12:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  updating UDS spec's with results from UDS
[12:44] <lool> Hmm looks like we wont have a meeting next week...
[12:44] <persia> I've been going through notes and gobby documents, and expect to be able to dump stuff in the next 2-3 days into most of the specs.
[12:44] <lool> Many people are half-VAC this week or next
[12:45] <lool> It means postponing this review to January which is late
[12:45] <davidm> [action] lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th
[12:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th
[12:45] <davidm> [action] persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those.
[12:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those.
[12:45] <davidm> I agree but with the late UDS we don't have a choice
[12:46] <davidm> lool, ^^
[12:46] <lool> (I wish I'd think of this last week and set it as a goal for today but that would have been probably tight)
[12:47] <davidm> with travel and such I think impossible and there is no meeting next week or the week after.
[12:47] <davidm> OK anymore on seeds?
[12:47] <davidm> OK anymore on specs
[12:48] <davidm> that is
[12:48] <lool> I have a question on images if I'm allowed to jump back a second on the previous topic
[12:48] <davidm> Ok
[12:48] <lool> StevenK, cjwatson: will we have a livefs builder for armel?
[12:49] <davidm> [topic] seed status
[12:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  seed status
[12:49] <StevenK> We will have one, yes.
[12:49] <lool> StevenK: Is that planned for before alpha 3?
[12:49] <StevenK> I have no idea.
[12:49] <StevenK> I'll use it when it's configured
[12:50] <davidm> lool, can you take the action to cut and paste the UNT text to a wiki page?
[12:50] <lool> UNT?  UNR?
[12:50] <lool> Sure
[12:51] <davidm> Yes, fumble fingered sorry
[12:51] <davidm> [action] lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
[12:51] <MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
[12:51] <davidm> StevenK, seed status?  You have an update?
[12:52] <StevenK> I have most of the changes made locally.
[12:52] <StevenK> I'll go through the unr seed and see if any changes need to be made
[12:52] <davidm> [action] StevenK to sort out seed changes
[12:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to sort out seed changes
[12:55] <lool> Ah you wanted to replace the umpc seed wholesale with the unr one
[12:55] <StevenK> Not exactly
[12:57] <lool> Any other topics for today?
[12:57] <persia> mobile-applications
[12:57] <davidm> Just the usual status updates, but we are out of time
[12:57] <lool> (We might be running out of time)
[12:58] <persia> Ah, then none :)
[12:58] <davidm> we'll have to post the status in the email
[12:58] <lool> actually we have time
[12:58] <persia> I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
[12:58] <davidm> persia, good
[12:58] <lool> I don't see any meeting after ours today
[12:58] <davidm> [action] persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
[12:58] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting.
[12:58] <persia> No, Desktop changed the time, and moved to a different channel.  Still
[12:59] <davidm> OK lets do a quick status and then end the meeting
[12:59] <davidm> [topic] status report (quick)
[12:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  status report (quick)
[12:59] <lool> Who's quick?
[12:59] <davidm> persia, ?
[12:59] <persia> UDS, post-UDS braindump & notes review.
[12:59] <persia> (not yet complete, nor posted)
[13:00] <davidm> OK
[13:00] <davidm> StevenK, ?
[13:00] <StevenK> UDS, post-UDS review/spec writing, armel
[13:01] <davidm> lool, ?
[13:01] <lool> SRUs, MIRs, general catchup, doctor, poked some ARM stuff
[13:01] <lool> davidm: what about you?
[13:01] <lool> Feeling any better?
[13:02] <davidm> post UDS travel, paperwork, and setting interviews
[13:02] <davidm> Still have chest cold I think.
[13:02] <lool> Sorry about that  :-/
[13:02] <davidm> Got is as I got back on Monday.
[13:02] <davidm> So I hope it clears soonish
[13:02]  * StevenK thinks he managed to avoid the lool-cold
[13:02]  * lool sends a letter to .au
[13:03] <lool> hugs and kisses from France!
[13:03]  * StevenK stamps it Return to Sender, unopened
[13:03] <davidm> OK I'm going to close the meeting, StevenK you have the action to post weekly report tomorrow
[13:03]  * StevenK nods
[13:03] <lool> davidm: thanks for chairing
[13:03] <davidm> #endmeeting
[13:03] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:03.
[13:03] <davidm> lool, thanks
[13:03] <StevenK> When I recover from the coma I'm about to fall into
[13:03] <lool> I wish you people a merry xmas next week
[13:03] <davidm> Indeed
[14:01] <persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
[14:01] <Koon> o/
[14:02] <persia> Are we expecting ludovicc, slytherin, or robilad?
[14:03] <Koon> I don't think ludovicc will join us, don't know for the others
[14:04] <persia> slytherin doesn't appear on freenode, and robilad seems to be on an unusually small number of channels, so I'm guessing it's logging-only.
[14:05] <persia> So, roadmap: anything exciting for maven?
[14:05] <Koon> ludivic is still working on the tools
[14:06] <Koon> We've been discussing for Torsten Werner (debian-java) about integration
[14:07] <Koon> he is following a slightly different model: revisiting all Java library packages and provide a Maven-compatible view of them
[14:07] <Koon> i.e. /usr/share/java-maven-repo/path/to/artifactname/versionname/artifact-version.jar
[14:08] <Koon> rather than /usr/share/java/artifact-version.jar
[14:08] <Koon> The two approaches are not mutually exclusive
[14:08] <Koon> though I would have thought going for /usr/share/java-maven-repo things would require some policy decisions
[14:09] <persia> So we're likely to end up with a hybrid, and finally with just syncs?
[14:09] <persia> I'd agree that it would probably need some policy changes, but pkg-java can do that :)
[14:09] <Koon> yep.
[14:10] <persia> Anything else you want on the meeting records for maven this week?
[14:10] <Koon> Another concern raised is that asking maven to map to slightly-different versions of JARs is dangerous
[14:10] <Koon> I'll explain a bit
[14:10] <persia> API/ABI type issues?
[14:11] <Koon> maven allows Java developers to pick a very specific version number for every JAR
[14:11] <Koon> We, on the other hand, provide just one version
[14:12] <Koon> so when maven asks for plexus-utils-1.0.7_alpha7, we can give it 1.0.7_alpha2, or alpha10
[14:12] <Koon> there is no API/ABI protection whatsoever in version numbers
[14:13] <Koon> while this is reasonable for small software stacks... it can quickly become a problem with large ones
[14:13] <Koon> which are usually those using maven :)
[14:13] <Koon> I don't really know how we can solve that.
[14:13] <Koon> while still maintaining some common libraries
[14:14] <persia> Presumably that's something that can be improved as developers learn a more modular approach, as expected with the Java 7 transition?
[14:14] <persia> Certainly not quickly, but in time?
[14:14] <Koon> yes, we might need some workaround in between
[14:15] <persia> More than just our standard build/test/patch/report model?
[14:15] <Koon> something like shipping the expected JAR stack as part of the binaries, for complex software
[14:15] <persia> We do that now sometimes, but it's a bit of a security nightmare.
[14:16] <Koon> that may be preferable to testing nightmare + losing JavaEE certifications
[14:17] <Koon> anyway, I wanted to raise the issue because I think the common libraries model doesn't fit too well with the current Java world
[14:17] <persia> Right.  Generally, the process has been to try to use system libraries, and bundle when they didn't work.
[14:17] <persia> No, it certainly doesn't fit with current cultural practices, although this is (slowly) changing.
[14:17] <Koon> I'm sure robilad could provide some insights on the direction we are heading to
[14:17] <Koon> that's all
[14:18] <persia> Next item is removing Java 5 from Jaunty.
[14:19] <persia> There was a discussion about this with Sun representatives at UDS, and given the expected date for end-of-support for Java 5 from Sun, we will want to get this completed for Jaunty (and arguably may have wanted it for intrepid).
[14:20] <persia> Those users who need Java 5 beyond end-of-support can use 8.04.x or 8.10, but there won't be any more updates (even bugfix) soon enough.
[14:20] <zul> so whats the next version of java from sun?
[14:20] <persia> We still need to get the spec done, and get it approved, etc.
[14:21] <persia> zul, Next spec is Java 7.  I'm not sure of the exact schedule for Sun JDK 5, Sun JDK 6, OpenJDK 6, or OpenJDK 7 builds.
[14:23] <persia> That's it for roadmap.
[14:24] <persia> On an administrative note, the next two Thursdays fall on days considered holidays in many places.  I'll probably be around for the first, but not the second.  Is anyone expecting to attend a Java Team meeting on those days?
[14:24] <Koon> persia: not me
[14:24] <persia> Well then, I'm not holding official meetings on those days :)
[14:24] <persia> That's it.  Have a good week.
[14:25] <Koon> Thanks, you too :)
[22:44] <lukjad007> Sorry, forgot to log out.
[22:53] <ubuntugeek> Hey Matthew
[22:54] <forumsmatthew> hello!
[22:57] <Technoviking> afternoon
[22:57] <ubuntugeek> How's it going?
[22:57] <forumsmatthew> I'm cold. It's 57 (F) here.
[22:57] <lukjad007> 25 here.
[22:57] <Technoviking> going good
[22:58] <Technoviking> 23 F
[22:58] <forumsmatthew> I'm a cold wimp...it's all those years in the desert
[22:58] <forumsmatthew> on both sides of the Atlantic
[22:58] <lukjad007> Heh. Well, I like winter.
[22:59] <ubuntugeek> 14F
[22:59] <lukjad007> It makes most of my adversaries dumb
[22:59] <Snowflake> I wondered when jdong would be arriving.
[22:59] <lukjad007> hey jdong
[22:59] <forumsmatthew> jdong, welcome!
[22:59] <jdong> hi everyone :)
[22:59] <jdong> I got the date right this time!
[22:59] <ubuntugeek> Hi
[23:00] <forumsmatthew> I'm pretty sure Kiwi isn't coming. Since the rest of us are here, shall we get started?
[23:00] <ubuntugeek> Let's go ahead and get started
[23:00] <forumsmatthew> lol
[23:00] <ubuntugeek> The agenda is located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[23:00] <Technoviking> I have only got a hour, got to change tapes before I go home :(
[23:00] <talsemgeest> So why isn't kiwi coming?
[23:00] <ubuntugeek> Should be quick Mike
[23:00] <ubuntugeek> talsemgeest: odd time for him
[23:01] <talsemgeest> 12.PM?
[23:01] <ubuntugeek> He works
[23:01]  * drubin catches up the logs
[23:01] <talsemgeest> Ah
[23:01] <ubuntugeek> NicolsDeschilre are you here to discuss the brainstorm agenda item?
[23:01] <lukjad007> Hey talsemgeest, will you be able to stay?
[23:01] <talsemgeest> Maybe another 20 minutes
[23:02] <ubuntugeek> Ok, we'll come back to the first Item then
[23:02] <lukjad007> Okay. If you go, I'll bring up your point
[23:02] <ubuntugeek> The second item "The strikethrough tags [s][/s] do not work in the Forum"
[23:02] <drubin> brb
[23:02] <ubuntugeek> This isn't a native bbcode in vbulletin, however, I just added support for it :)
[23:02] <forumsmatthew> sweet!
[23:03] <lukjad007> so, it's in?
[23:03] <ubuntugeek> Yes, its in
[23:03] <lukjad007> Thanks you!
[23:03] <forumsmatthew> thank you
[23:03] <ubuntugeek> Working and tested [s]test[/s] will strike
[23:03] <jdong> coolness
[23:03] <Snowflake> On a related note, I believe [hr] is nonexistent or mod-only? (Just wondering)
[23:03] <talsemgeest> Awesome
[23:04] <ubuntugeek> Snowflake, no plans for that one we try to keep it limited.
[23:04] <Snowflake> Ah.
[23:04] <drubin> Snowflake: hr as in horizontal rule?
[23:04] <Snowflake> drubin: Yes.
[23:04] <jdong> ubuntugeek: maybe we should try using the del tag?
[23:04] <jdong> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_del.asp
[23:04] <drubin> ubuntugeek: thanks for moving the meeting time.
 is technically deprecated
[23:04] <ubuntugeek> Next, on the agenda we have "Superfluous moderation on the forums"  by wrtpeeps. Are they here to address their item?
[23:05] <ubuntugeek> There isn't much detail on this item, so I'm not sure what its pertaining to. Anyone else?
[23:05] <drubin> jdong: technically we *should* be only using css for this stuff
[23:06] <jdong> ubuntugeek: I believe it comes from one of the res center topics.
[23:06] <jdong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267
[23:06] <ubuntugeek> drudin: we do not allow html code directly in posts
[23:06] <forumsmatthew> he was unhappy with an infraction that Kiwi gave and I supported, or the other way around
[23:06] <Snowflake> Before wrtpeeps gets flooded, I send a message to him in the hopes that he is paying attention...
[23:06] <drubin> ubuntugeek: I was just refering that [s] should apply a style rather then html code
[23:07] <ubuntugeek> drubin; that makes things more complicated
[23:07] <jdong> well with regard to wrtpeep's situation the existing FC replies sum up my opinion and his replies speak for themself.
[23:07] <drubin> ubuntugeek: like with all things. :) Just saying it would be the ideal
[23:07]  * lukjad007 will be right back.
[23:07] <forumsmatthew> My opinion is unchanged from what I said in the thread you linked
[23:08] <ubuntugeek> I agree with the moderation and infraction that took place in this situation
[23:08] <jdong> I don't see anything that needs to be done. The infraction was appropriate and wrtpeeps is not here to say otherwise.
[23:08] <ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
[23:08] <forumsmatthew> agreed...and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Superfluous?jss=0
[23:09] <Technoviking> agreed
[23:09] <ubuntugeek> OK lets move on, if wrtpeeps shows up we can discuss it further. But the FC is in agreement with the actions taken.
[23:09] <ubuntugeek> Next, The bump thread Feel that they are over loading the forums unnecessarily. Drubin, you are up.
[23:10] <drubin> give me a sec writing it down :)
[23:10] <ubuntugeek> No problem, take your time.
[23:11] <drubin> We state that this is first and formost a tech support forum, yet we have this thread. I am not saying we need to get ride of these light hearted threads I am seriously wondering the extrea load they impose in the db is this nessary considering all the issues we were having at the time
[23:11] <drubin> btw the issues seemed to have calmed down a little bit
[23:11] <jdong> well I think the "issues" calming down is mere coincidence.
[23:12] <ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
[23:12] <talsemgeest> I feel that any overuse of the forum resources is worth it for the friendships that are made in that thread. It is a great place to get to know your fellow ubuntu-forumers.
[23:12] <jdong> while I absolutely agree this up-and-down flakiness of the forum needs to be resolved and looked at seriously, I don't feel a single long thread is the cause.
[23:12] <wrtpeeps> er, hi?
[23:12] <drubin> the extra posts might slow down the quries on a whole searching/indexing of the db
[23:12] <drubin> jdong: +1
[23:12] <jdong> vBulletin doesn't really work in a way where long threads are more "expensive" to access.
[23:12] <ubuntugeek> drubin: I can assure that that bump thread isn't causing any load.
[23:12] <forumsmatthew> wrtpeeps, we will get back to your issue shortly, after we finish this on
[23:13] <forumsmatthew> *one
[23:13] <jdong> that being said, I think we do need to take a look at why on earth we have so many proxy  errors.
[23:13] <jdong> ubuntugeek: any guesses?
[23:13] <ubuntugeek> It's configured wrong?
[23:13] <drubin> ubuntugeek: You have direct access to the DB's/code I would love to know the explained query when viewing the bump thread how many rows it examines
[23:13] <forumsmatthew> gremlins?
[23:13] <wrtpeeps> hold on til I go refresh myself on what my issue was
[23:13] <Snowflake> jdong: Someday you'll have to tell me how the database works (if you can). I'm curious how that operates.
[23:14] <lukjad007> Has it been narrowed down to a hardware or a software problem?
[23:14] <jdong> drubin: no more than it costs to retrieve any other 50 posts or 25 or whatever you have per page.
[23:14] <ubuntugeek> drubin: Alot of the queries are cached
[23:14] <jdong> lukjad007: it's software.
[23:14] <ubuntugeek> drubin: by vbulletin
[23:14] <drubin> ubuntugeek: Ok topic over.
[23:15] <drubin> :)
[23:15] <ubuntugeek> drubin: when  you pull of up a page of the thread its only pulling the posts on that page
[23:15] <jdong> I do think there's something weird going on with the proxy though....
[23:15] <forumsmatthew> jdong, +1
[23:15] <drubin> jdong: +1
[23:15] <jdong> there was a phase where basically 1 of 10 pages end in proxy error
[23:15] <ubuntugeek> drubin; it doesn't prefetch all 1000 pages
[23:15] <drubin> ubuntugeek: Ye I know that. but I wanted to know the means for "searching" for those 20 posts
[23:16]  * drubin is trying to find his post explaining this
[23:16] <jdong> drubin: hashtable.
[23:16] <jdong> constant access time
[23:16] <jdong> it's not an issue for vBulletin to handle
[23:17] <drubin> ye it should be handeled on the DB's side
[23:17] <drubin> but as with all design/programming there are more then one way to skin a cat
[23:17] <drubin> I was wondering how this way was handeling threads with huge amounts of posts...
[23:18] <ubuntugeek> Lets move on to wrtpeeps agenda item. I think we established that the bump thread isnt causing any problems.
[23:18] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:18] <lukjad007> Thank you ubuntugeek
[23:18] <ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps you are up
[23:18] <jdong> +1
[23:19] <wrtpeeps> ok
[23:19] <wrtpeeps> what exactly do you want me to say? Haven't been to one of these gatherings before
[23:19] <jdong> give us a quick description of the problem, link to relevant posts, and why you disagree with the decision.
[23:19] <ubuntugeek> I assume you put your item on the agenda because you feel you were wrongly given an infraction
[23:19] <wrtpeeps> Ok, so firstly apologies as I am unprepared as I wasn't aware this meeting was taking place now
[23:20] <wrtpeeps> but yes, I received what quite frankly was a pathetic infraction from KiwiNZ i believe.
[23:20] <wrtpeeps> For calling someone "paranoid" I got accused of "insulting other members"
[23:21] <wrtpeeps> This was, in my opinion, a totally unnecessary intervention by an administrator.
[23:21] <forumsmatthew> we all looked earlier, but for the record, here is the Resolution Center thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=996267
[23:21] <wrtpeeps> ty
[23:21] <forumsmatthew> I stated my opinion there, and it is unchanged
[23:21] <wrtpeeps> Yes, you said "It is possible for intelligent people to disagree, even strongly, without resorting to mockery. Please learn how."
[23:21] <ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps:  it was your tone that caused the infraction, it comes across as insulting.
[23:21] <wrtpeeps> Which, is a contradiction within intself
[23:21] <wrtpeeps> -n
[23:21] <jdong> I've looked over the original thread and the resolution center posts again...
[23:22] <talsemgeest> Ok, sorry guys but I have to go.
[23:22] <jdong> I do feel, wrtpeeps, your response was overly harsh and directly attacking than appropriate for answering the OP's question.
[23:22] <wrtpeeps> forumsmatthew: your reply to me was dismissive and mocking
[23:22] <lukjad007> Bye talsemgeest
[23:22] <forumsmatthew> I answered that accusation in the thread. My opinion is unchanged.
[23:23] <jdong> furthermore, your attitude and choice of words in your resolution center post are not so great either
[23:23] <wrtpeeps> Can we assume therefore, that all future instances of people being called paranoid or using a tone displeasing to you that they will be similarly infracted?
[23:23] <jdong> if anyone calls anyone else "absolutely paranoid" and mocks them for asking a privacy question, yes, it's safe to say they will be infracted.
[23:24] <wrtpeeps> I will admit, it's a long time ago now and I am over it
[23:24] <wrtpeeps> but I do feel that it was unnecessary
[23:24] <jdong> as Matthew said, it's totally fine to disagree, even strongly disagree, with someone, or to find their opinion unreasonable.
[23:25] <jdong> but you express that by pointing out specific facts that contradict the OP's statement
[23:25] <ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps: Like most infractions they expire and yours did in this case.
[23:25] <jdong> not by name-calling and mocking...
[23:25] <jdong> a light infraction -- the lowest point-value one possible, was given for your post
[23:25] <jdong> it was meant as just a polite reminder to be careful of your tone.
[23:25] <wrtpeeps> speaking of mocking
[23:25] <ubuntugeek> jdong: +1
[23:26] <wrtpeeps> is there any chance the pointless, childish, continual bashing of windows users could be moderated? (In Community chat)
[23:26] <wrtpeeps> especially the grossly uneducated posts.
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> wrtpeeps: please use the forum report option and a staff member will look into it
[23:26] <forumsmatthew> when you see it, please report the post
[23:26] <jdong> we do pay attention to such posts.
[23:26] <wrtpeeps> ok, thanks :)
[23:26] <Technoviking> wrtpeeps: many people who do that do get infraction for doing so
[23:26] <jdong> as matthew said, please report such posts if you feel they are out of line
[23:27] <wrtpeeps> Technoviking: good to know :)
[23:27] <jdong> we don't support such bashing of anything.
[23:27] <wrtpeeps> ok well, as I said, I am over my original problem, and the second one is fine too
[23:27] <wrtpeeps> so that's all from me folks :)
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> Ok great
[23:27] <jdong> ok, awesome
[23:27] <jdong> thanks for coming to the meeting
[23:27] <wrtpeeps> no problem
[23:28] <jdong> ok, is Nicolas or anyone else from Brainstorm here to discuss the remaining item?
[23:28] <ubuntugeek> The first item we havent address since he isnt here.
[23:28] <ubuntugeek> We'll leave it on the agenda for next time
[23:29] <jdong> ok, sounds good.
[23:29] <ubuntugeek> Does anyone else have anything?
[23:29] <Joeb454> I like it when meetings are this short ;)
[23:29] <JenkinBr> Joeb454: you missed it all
[23:29] <jdong> Joeb454: that's what... oh forget it.
[23:29] <forumsmatthew> thanks, everyone!
[23:29] <Joeb454> I know :)
[23:30] <forumsmatthew> my wife is calling me
[23:30] <forumsmatthew> see you later!
[23:30] <ubuntugeek> Thanks everyone see you next month
[23:30] <Joeb454> later forumsmatthew
[23:30] <jdong> bye!
[23:30] <Technoviking> happy holidays everyone
[23:30] <Joeb454> bye ubuntugeek
[23:30] <ubuntugeek> -- end meeting
[23:30] <Joeb454> and +1 Technoviking :D
[23:30] <jdong> :)
[23:30] <lukjad007> Bye!
[23:30] <drubin> bye
[23:31] <JenkinBr> bye
[23:31] <ubuntugeek> bye everyone