[03:09] <snookie_> Anyone tell me how to checkout the ubuntu mobile source code using bzr?  What's the latest branch that's stable and I can compile?
[03:12] <persia> The source isn't organised like that.
[03:12] <persia> Each of the Ubuntu Mobile flavours (MID, UMPC) is a collection of packages from Ubuntu.
[03:13] <persia> Each package in Ubuntu is managed separately: some are in bzr, but the majority are not.
[03:13] <snookie_> really?
[03:13] <persia> Or rather, the majority are, but aren't managed that way: they've been imported.
[03:13] <persia> Yes.
[03:14] <snookie_> so I'm interested in cross compiling the file system for another processor, how in the heck do I go about getting the source for the filesystem (known to compile)
[03:14] <persia> Which processor?
[03:14] <snookie_> coldfire
[03:14] <snookie_> it's a freescale processor
[03:14] <persia> That's m68k, right?
[03:14] <snookie_> yeah
[03:15] <persia> Well, you'd need to bootstrap it.
[03:15] <persia> I'd recommend starting with Debian m68k, and recompiling the Ubuntu base packages first.
[03:15] <snookie_> well, bootstrapping is step two
[03:15] <snookie_> I need the filesystem first
[03:15] <persia> NCommander, What's your thought on trying to port Ubuntu to m68k?  How long might it take?
[03:16] <persia> snookie_, Right.  It doesn't exist.  Like I said, you'd want to start with Debian m68k.
[03:16] <snookie_> but that's easy, freescale has a one click solution, they have their sources and compiler and a beautiful set of menuconfigs
[03:17] <snookie_> compiling their standard debian distro is easy
[03:17] <snookie_> I want to use the kernel I get from them with the ubuntu mobile filesystem, or maybe it's harder than that....
[03:17] <persia> Hrm?  "their standard debian distro"?  How does this differ from Debian itself?
[03:18] <snookie_> I don't know if it does, it's just a source tree included on their site that's known to compile
[03:18] <persia> Ah.
[03:19] <persia> Well, I'd say it's both easier and harder than you think.
[03:19] <snookie_> what are you thinking?
[03:19] <persia> Debian already has a userspace that works on m68k, with mostly the same packages as those used in Ubuntu (something like 85% of the packages are identical).
[03:20] <persia> So, you should be able to get a Debian system up with a minimum of fuss.
[03:20] <persia> If you install the same selection of packages as for one of the Ubuntu Mobile flavours, you'll end up with a fairly similar system, probably nearly sufficient for hacking about.
[03:21] <persia> You might want to recompile a few Ubuntu packages against this, but probably not too many.
[03:21] <snookie_> a few ubuntu packages?
[03:21] <snookie_> not sure I follow
[03:22] <persia> On the other hand, if you want to have a proper Ubuntu for m68k, you'll have to recompile everything: you'd start with the toolchain, getting the Ubuntu toolchain compiled (from under Debian is probably the easiest way to do this), and then use those packages in a chroot to compile the rest of things.
[03:22] <snookie_> why can't I use the freescale toolchain?
[03:22] <persia> OK.  85% or so of the packages in Debian and Ubuntu are identical.
[03:23] <persia> So, if you build a collection of packages for personal use, there's a good chance that you don't need to recompile much to handle patches you want.
[03:23] <persia> That's why I say "a few".
[03:23] <persia> Well, you could use the freescale toolchain, but the result wouldn't really be either Debian or Ubuntu.
[03:24] <persia> Also, if you use the freescale toolchain, you would probably want to recompile everything, which would take a very long time.
[03:24] <persia> Personally, I don't think it's worth that much time unless you're going for a full port, in which case, you'd want to use the Ubuntu toolchain.
[03:25] <persia> Also, as those machines aren't known for fast compiles, I'd think you'd do a lot better starting from Debian, where everything is already compiled for m68k.
[03:25] <snookie_> but I'd have to recomplie the ubuntu toolchain for the freescale processor no?
[03:25] <persia> Let's step back.  What's your ultimate goal?
[03:26] <snookie_> The ultimate goal is to benefit from all this being done on ubuntu mobile for the touch screen/mobile X/ etc
[03:26] <snookie_> but I don't want to go about starting my own distribution 
[03:27] <persia> OK.  So you have some device, and you want to run Ubuntu on it for the touchscreen stuff.
[03:27] <persia> What's the specs on the device, roughly?  Memory, resolution, etc.?
[03:27] <snookie_> yeah, but all the other work they are doing is great too
[03:28] <snookie_> 64 Megs of DDR2 
[03:28] <snookie_> resolution tbd
[03:28] <persia> I'll suggest going for a minimum resolution of 800x600, as anything less starts cutting off widgets in Ubuntu.
[03:29] <snookie_> okay
[03:29] <snookie_> Can you hold on two seconds, I'm being kicked out, gotta run to another room
[03:29] <snookie_> I'll probably lose internet
[03:29] <persia> There are some people who run as low as 640x480, but that gets fairly small.
[03:29] <snookie_> I really appreciate your help
[03:29] <persia> OK.  I'll wait.
[03:32] <snookie_> okay back
[03:32] <snookie_> thanks for waiting
[03:32] <snookie_> I can't imagine doing something smaller than 800x600
[03:32] <persia> No problem, especially that short.
[03:33] <persia> Yeah: some people like the low resolution, I'm not sure why.  There's 800x600 0.35" screens available, which is more DPI than most people want, but still lots of people talk about lower resolution.
[03:34] <persia> Also, 64MB RAM is extremely low for a full Ubuntu installation.
[03:34] <persia> Generally, 128 is considered minimum, 192 still low, and 256 a base beneath which it's hard to run.  That said, I know of several people who run with 64, and at least one who runs with 36, so it's possible.
[03:35] <persia> Next, do you have proper X drivers for the display, or is it a framebuffer?
[03:35] <snookie_> but isn't mobile-ubuntu better optimized for lower end processors?
[03:35] <snookie_> the freescale is only 200Mhz
[03:35] <persia> Not really.
[03:35] <snookie_> So what's the ARM this is targeted for?
[03:35] <persia> Well, the hildon environment has some tricks to work better with low resources, but it's still fairly hungry.
[03:36] <persia> Ubuntu as a whole is being ported to ARM, with a minimum of ARMv5t, but I would expect it to be slow.
[03:38] <persia> Slowest ARM I've heard about anyone running Ubuntu on is a 416MHz XScale 262
[03:38] <snookie_> so you think I would be better off dropping this dream of a freescale processor and using an ARM
[03:38] <snookie_> 200 is a lot slower than 400
[03:38] <snookie_> I just don't like how arm doesn't use real DDR2
[03:39] <persia> Well, processor clockspeeds can't really be compared between architectures well.
[03:39] <snookie_> yeah true
[03:40] <persia> That said, I'd recommend selecting x86, ppc, or ARM for your device, because Ubuntu is already ported to those architectures.
[03:40] <snookie_> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking
[03:40] <persia> That means you'd have very little compilation to do: mostly just installation, and maybe working with the kernel or toolchain a bit to make sure your device is well supported.
[03:41] <persia> You could also choose ia64, sparc, or hppa, but I don't know of any low-power chips for those architectures.
[03:42] <snookie_> Well, if anything, I'd use an arm
[03:43] <snookie_> the atom is very closed, it's hard to get a development board and the whole bios thing scares me, how do I get one without having to pay the ridiculous licensing fees
[03:43] <persia> Makes sense: those are more widely available.
[03:43] <persia> The coreboot project supports the Intel Menlow platform, if you want a bios for the Atom.
[03:44] <persia> Also, there's some interesting stuff being done with PowerQUICC
[03:44] <snookie_> as far as what?
[03:45] <persia> In terms of low-power (watt) processors for various applications.
[03:46] <persia> Anyway, as long as you don't have a dev board yet, there's lots of options.
[03:46] <persia> I was afraid you already had the Coldfire dev board, and were looking to install Ubuntu.
[03:46] <snookie_> no
[03:46] <snookie_> my buddy is really pushing coldfire, and I just think it's a dead end
[03:47] <snookie_> thank god
[03:47] <snookie_> I have a good reason to fight back
[03:48] <snookie_> = P
[03:48] <persia> Coldfire is fairly nifty, just not supported by Ubuntu.
[03:49] <snookie_> yeah
[03:49] <persia> Part of that is the immense effort seen in Debian to keep m68k up-to-date.  If you did want Coldfire, you'd really want to run Debian unless you were prepared to run a porting project.
[03:49] <snookie_> yeah I know what you mean
[03:50] <snookie_> the way they set it up, they are assuming you'd never use anything else
[03:51] <persia> Hrm?
[03:51] <snookie_> Anything being done at the moment for QUICC and ubuntu?
[03:51] <snookie_> I'm unfamiliar with it, I see it's PPC, but do they have it up and running on anything yet?
[03:52] <snookie_> I don't want to pick something that I'm going to have to dig myself out of to be on level playing ground...
[03:53] <persia> I haven't heard of anything PowerQUICC specific: most of the PPC crowd seems to be focused on old Macs and the PS3.
[03:53] <snookie_> yeah
[03:53] <persia> That said, you'd really want to ask freescale if it works: it should.
[03:53] <snookie_> lol
[03:54] <snookie_> so how do I keep up with the arm port, I'd like to be involved, get a development board, report my progress, etc
[03:55] <snookie_> well, I'll have to talk to my buddy, but I'm nearly certain we'll start out with an arm
[03:55] <persia> A lot of the discussion on the ARM port happens in #ubuntu-devel or on the ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list.
[03:56] <persia> There's also an #ubuntu-arm channel for arm-specific discussions.
[03:56] <persia> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/armel/+builds shows the current build status of the packages
[03:57] <snookie_> how about the source code, it's going to be the same deal isn't it
[03:57] <persia> Yep.
[03:58] <persia> Do you run Ubuntu on any of your systems currently?
[03:58] <snookie_> but I imagine the packages have pre-built kernels and filesystems yes?
[03:58] <snookie_> yeah
[03:58] <persia> No, the packages are the same as for your Ubuntu system.
[03:58] <persia> So, if you want to look at e.g. teg, you'd look at the teg package, which is then compiled for each architecture.
[03:59] <persia> You can get the source with e.g. apt-get source teg.
[03:59] <persia> It's really the same Ubuntu system, just that you might install different packages on a handheld device than you might on a workstation or server.
[04:01] <persia> Same with the kernel: it's the same source as builds the kernel for any other architecture.
[04:01] <persia> The filesystems are built from the installation of a base set of packages.
[04:02] <snookie_> oh I was confused, I think  I understand.  I'd need to find out what the base set of packages are for a basic filesystem, use a ubuntu install to download the source, and then cross compile them
[04:03] <persia> If you select a supported architecture, you don't need to cross-compile: everything should already be built.
[04:04] <snookie_> terribly sorry, I'm confused now, how do I start out?  How do I go about getting a kernel and file system (if possible) for a supported arm kernel?
[04:05] <bizkut> http://www.geloraworld.org/bizkut/3pcs.png
[04:05] <persia> We're really getting off-topic for here: let's continue in #ubuntu-arm.
[04:06] <snookie_> okay thanks persia
[06:54] <NCommander> persia, with 22 m68ks? Maybe six months to a year
[06:55] <persia> snookie_, Based on that, I'm firmly recommending against the coldfire option :)
[06:56] <snookie_> rofl
[06:56] <snookie_> And that's probably for someone who wouldn't be doing this for the first time
[06:56] <snookie_> = P
[06:56] <snookie_> but that's just between you and me
[06:57] <snookie_> oh and the 36 other people in the chatroom
[06:57] <persia> That's why I asked someone who had worked on that sort of thing before: best to have the experts answer :)
[06:58] <NCommander> persia, wait, coldfire?
[06:58] <NCommander> persia, I thought you meant traditional m68k
[06:58] <NCommander> Coldfire probably could be done at half the speed of ARM since we can't leverage the existing Debian port
[06:59] <persia> We can't?  Why not?
[07:01] <NCommander> persia, coldfire and m68k use different instruction sets
[07:01] <NCommander> different op codes, and coldfire doesn't have FPU on most of their boards
[07:02] <persia> I thought that was solved last year, and that the m68k binaries worked for both coldfire and regular m68k.  Sorry for my confusion.
[07:03] <snookie_> but why can't you leverage the existing debian port for ARM?
[07:03] <persia> It was leveraged.
[07:05] <persia> Oh, I see.  The plan was identified last year, but m68k glibc still emits opcodes that confuse coldfires.  Indeed.
[07:06]  * NCommander would like to see a MIPS port before ColdFire
[07:06] <NCommander> Mostly because MIPS netbooks actually exist
[07:06] <persia> heh
[07:06]  * StevenK mutters about doorstops
[07:06]  * StevenK hides
[07:07]  * persia doesn't have any coldfire hardware heavy enough to stop a door
[07:07]  * NCommander doesn't either
[07:08] <persia> Now, in traditional m68k, they built heavy stuff, but there's only a couple coldfire solutions (e.g. UPSs) that would actually hold the door open.
[07:08] <persia> Mind you, that leads to the argument that coldfire isn't a doorstop architecture because it's not even useful enough to hold a door open, but that's probably off topic (plus, I am very happy with my coldfire devices)
[07:09]  * NCommander would like to see a LPIA Debian port ...
[07:09]  * NCommander runs
[07:09]  * StevenK kicks both NCommander and persia and mutters about metaphors
[07:10] <NCommander> The holiday spirit already left StevenK :-/
[07:10] <persia> It melts quickly at 26 degrees.
[07:10] <StevenK> It had to be in me in the first place to leave
[07:12]  * NCommander tries to picture StevenK happy and smiling ...
[07:13] <NCommander> Nope, nothing
[07:13] <StevenK> Oh, come on, I think I smiled once at UDS
[07:13] <persia> I saw that.
[07:13] <StevenK> But happy? No.
[07:14] <NCommander> StevenK, you smiled at people's misery
[07:14] <NCommander> such as my own
[07:14] <StevenK> Yes.
[07:15] <NCommander> -_-;;;
[07:16] <Hobbsee> NCommander: i'm fairly sure he also smiled when you kept falling off your chair.
[07:16] <StevenK> Bwaha
[07:16] <Hobbsee> and was also happy :P
[18:25] <king> Can someone comment on this?
[18:25] <king> This version of the Ubuntu Desktop operating system will target the ARMv7 architecture including ARM Cortex-A8 and Cortex-A9 processor-based systems.  Canonical’s support of a full ARM distribution will strengthen the ARM Linux ecosystem and widen the opportunity to leverage ARM technology into fast-growing markets. 
[18:26] <king> Does ubuntu MID run on Openmoko Freerunner, an older ARM based handset?
[19:06] <NCommander> kirma, no, it won't work. OpenMoko's ARM chipset is too old
[19:06] <NCommander> er, king
[19:07] <NCommander> oh, missed him