=== HedgeMag1 is now known as HedgeMage [04:25] Ahmuck: well, its like having 2 maintenance setups, one thin, one fat... inet should work fine out of the box... if it doesn't please check /etc/network/interfaces [04:26] hi nubae [04:26] nubae: how's it going? [04:27] hey LaserJock [04:27] not too bad... not a lot of work, since its the holidays and all [04:27] how bout u? [04:28] been doing some bug work [04:28] got qcad all triaged [04:28] insectisides :-) [04:28] working on gcompris now [04:29] gcompris has a problem with sound on ltsp... SDL based [04:29] run it with sound on a couple systems and the network will go down [04:30] gosh, gcompris too? [04:30] yep [04:30] everything SDL based [04:30] that sucks :( [04:30] yeah its a serious problem, especially since Canonical claims to support these progs [04:31] but ltsp is a different beast I suppose [04:31] I think we need to shout a bit harder to get the SDL people involved [04:31] think about how many edu apps are SDL based... its a lot [04:32] u have a good xmas btw? [04:32] well, "support" is not very well defined [04:32] yeah, it's been a pretty good christmas [04:33] well, thats not helpful for deployments in schools... [04:33] if we cannot state what is supported and not.... [04:33] that's Linux [04:33] well its got to be clear, either its supported, or not... [04:34] well, it's supported in the sense that you can by a support contract [04:34] i can't deploy in a school and say, it MIGHT be supported [04:34] really, u think Canonical would fix all SDL based apps if the school in question paid? [04:34] and if you do that and then complain about SDL then I guess they'd look into it [04:34] they'd look into it, I mean they aren't miracle workers :-) [04:34] ok, well I can test that theory... [04:35] I'm deploying several schools here in Austria in January [04:35] but I believe that's the point of buying support [04:35] lets see what happens [04:35] you're supposed to be able to call them up and say "heh, this doesn't work, what are you gonna do about it?" [04:36] that would mean canonical would pay the SDL programmers to fix their stuff [04:36] for ltsp [04:36] I doubt it [04:36] I guess until now, there has been no incentive [04:37] the Canonical support engineer might try to find a workaround or perhaps bug some upstreams [04:37] yeah the workaround we got now was.... don't run sound [04:37] I doubt Canonical would actually pay somebody to fix it, but you never know [04:37] I honestly know close to 0 about Canonical's support [04:37] well if the school in question pays a support contract I would hope so [04:37] otherwise I will advise them not to pay any support contract [04:37] I've been in Ubuntu for over 3 years and I haven't seen them do anything [04:38] hmmmm [04:38] but I think they stay pretty busy so they must do *something* [04:38] hows it work with tuxlabs... they have 200 deployments [04:38] surely they have complaints [04:40] honestly though right now I don't know exactly where Canonical is in all this [04:40] I think they're kinda trying to figure what to do with Education [04:40] well when I spoke to Riched last, he seemed pretty committed [04:41] realistically Canonical can't just fix everything, you know [04:41] right, understand that, but the SDL thing is not a little thing [04:41] it affects almost 50% of the programs in edubuntu [04:41] well [04:42] right [04:42] but if they are looking at having to fix a kernel bug that affect 5 million people or a LTSP bug ... [04:42] it's a matter of prioritization [04:42] right, I get that, but they do have a dedictated person for education, right? [04:43] not that I know of [04:43] Riched [04:43] he's not a support person [04:43] his management [04:43] he doesn't do support or development [04:43] k... well they better start outsource to u or me or someone [04:44] we'll see [04:44] I've been trying to make the case [04:44] especially as there are some rather large Edubuntu deployments out there [04:44] the education market is massive, just here I can tell u the numbers are massive [04:44] I mean, I don't want to scare people off of Ubuntu?Edubuntu [04:45] I think it's great for Linux [04:45] but at this point there is almost no Canonical interest that I can find [04:45] it is, the netbook market alone has oppened great opportunities [04:45] so it's up to us volunteers to keep it going [04:45] well, in terms of netbooks... they are very interested in getting support for that officially [04:45] if Canonical see's Edubuntu growing and making a difference I think they'd be willing to help [04:46] but I don't think they want to do it alone, IMO at least [04:46] right [04:46] yes, netbooks are huge [04:46] not sure if they see that as education thought [04:47] nope [04:47] well, they do [04:47] but not in terms of Edubuntu or educational apps [04:47] well, that's not exactly true [04:47] I mean, they work quite a bit with OEMs, etc. [04:48] yeah right now with 1 [04:48] dell [04:48] but I don't think they're very concerned with Education in the sense of educational apps/tools/content [04:48] they want all the others to send samples of their netbooks and pay them for testing [04:48] they just want to deliver Ubuntu on netbooks [04:50] I haven't seen a lot of emphasis on actual educational content [04:50] true, me either, though they are interested in sugar [04:50] because of its publicity [04:51] yeah [04:51] but we need to grow a developer community [04:52] we need work done or we die, essentially [04:52] difficult when there are about 5 active people or less [04:52] yep [04:53] what do u suggest? [04:53] it's not an easy problem [04:54] somehow we need to convince Edubuntu users that it's worth their time to contribute [04:54] so bombard them with emails? [04:54] we need to then have the infrastructure and leadership to to have a place for them to land [04:54] I think we need to revive edubuntu-devel [04:54] yep [04:55] at least u and I could start sending out emails [04:55] writing whatever [04:55] morning alkisg [04:56] I'll commit myself to write an email every couple days... and i u do the same, think we could spark something on the mailing list... there are a lot of dormant users [04:56] good morning nubae and everyone! [04:56] hi alkisg [04:57] what u doing up at 6! [04:57] Heh... I quit smoking, and now I can't sleep!! But it's 7:00, so good enough today, yesterday I woke up at 3:00!!! [04:57] heh, hear ya, insomnia is bad... its 6 here.... [04:58] You just woke up or you didn't get to bed yet! ??? [04:58] the latter... came back from a party.... [04:58] but insomnia nevertheless [04:59] Programming after a hangover produces a lot of bugs... beware!!! :P [04:59] no hangover yet.... [04:59] LaserJock: so whatcha think... send a couple emails every couple days to revive the list? [04:59] nubae: what was wrong with your domain some days ago? was it hacked? [05:00] nubae: what are you planning on saying? [05:01] no... finally got it to my own registrar, and it had default dns servers, even though I had changed it before [05:01] LaserJock: well, a description of projects we are doing and how to get involved for a start [05:01] and stating that edubuntu needs volunteers [05:02] laying out the future [05:02] right now its dead because no one knows what is going on, but we know at least a couple of things that are happening [05:04] nubae: well, we should get a list together [05:04] I was hoping the Strategy Doc would help [05:04] so I need to finish that [05:04] it would if it was complete [05:04] yeah.. [05:05] You could even put something like this on the wiki, cause it's really not clear what edubuntu is right now and where it's going... [05:05] right! [05:05] write whatever u can, and I'll help... [05:06] we just cannot rely on Canonical to get inolved anymore [05:07] anyway, we have at least 4 people interested in progressing this, Ahmuck, LaserJock, alkisg, nubae [05:12] so I think if we got a list of things to do [05:12] had a meeting [05:12] ...Don't let me get the conversation out of track, but I was wondering if edubuntu should primarily target kubuntu and not ubuntu, with most of the apps being part of kde-edu... I've been using plain ubuntu/ltsp so far, and I only installed the edubuntu add-on cd once, but it installed so may kde* stuff that I think it would be better if I had kubuntu.. [05:12] divided up the task and got to work [05:13] alkisg: I think it's mostly desktop-neutral [05:13] I think one of the problems is that KDE had KDE Edu [05:13] but beyond that there's not a ton [05:14] I have been working on our edubuntu-desktop-kde meta packages [05:16] If someone installs edubuntu on kde, doesn't it install 50-100Mb _fewer_ than if it's installed on gnome? [05:16] nope [05:16] because we have lots of Gnome libs [05:16] must be about the same one both [05:16] I see... [05:16] you're kind of stuck either direction [05:16] anyway, why does that matter? [05:17] but we do have to pick one [05:17] well, edubuntu should be its own distro... IMHO [05:17] we *just* got rid of that :-) [05:18] yeah I know, I think it was a mistake [05:18] we basically can't support doing our own full distro [05:18] but nevermind [05:18] Nubae, what does being a distro offer that a meta-package cannot? [05:18] well, it wasn't a matter of mistake or not, it was basically the only thing we could do [05:18] well, if u are deploying to a school or uni, and u say, here is the edubuntu distro... [05:19] they will take u far more seriously than if u say, well, we have this addon cd.... [05:19] right [05:19] the edubuntu name is known [05:20] respected in many casese [05:20] Canonical wants to say "here's Ubuntu, and you can also add on educational apps using the Education CD" [05:20] which means nothing to a school or uni [05:20] Ah, yeah, I know about that!!! I had to write a newer version of a manual "installing edubuntu in greek schools", and I had to rename it to "installing ubuntu/ltsp and adding the edubuntu cd later..." :P It lost some "magic". [05:20] and given that we simply can't maintain a distro .. [05:21] why can kubuntu maintain itself and edubuntu not? [05:21] no people [05:21] whats the missing piece of the puzzle? [05:21] Edubuntu is too much of a niche distro and doesn't appeal to geeks [05:21] I dont know what to say to that [05:22] we've never been able to attract the high-school/university student that makes Ubuntu/Kubuntu, etc. thrive [05:22] school admins don't want to contribute in enough numbers [05:22] well, edubuntu died the minute the name started to be disputed [05:22] it was thriving before [05:23] then suddenly list went dead [05:23] even at it's height, with the same number of Canonical people working on Edubuntu as Kubuntu (1) [05:23] we never had nearly the development community [05:23] not enough to sustain a full distro with 2 CDs [05:24] there are 2 sides to this... one is the desktop/artwork [05:24] the other the programs [05:25] we should, even with 4 people be able to maintain that [05:25] well [05:25] granted, LaserJock is heavily weighed down with the packaging part.... [05:26] doing a full distro is a heck of a lot of work [05:27] working with what we've got, I think 4 people can make a big dent [05:27] keep in mind that a few people are also working with upstreams, so edubuntu will reap the benefits through debian [05:27] k, so what can we do? [05:28] maybe set up a meet [05:28] personally, there's very little advocacy for edubuntu, and i'm changing that as i give ubuntu dev talks to college acm meetings [05:29] I talked to RichEd and it looks like the 7th of Jan. is a go for a meeting [05:29] crimsun: but do believe there is hope for a edubntu distro? [05:29] nubae: as a distinct distro? [05:30] distinct or not... a brand [05:30] sure [05:30] so lets go for that [05:30] a significant number of people (by my admittedly narrow sampling pool of metro DC) have kids who use edubuntu [05:31] same here [05:31] do they actually use Edubuntu? [05:31] my users do [05:32] seems like to me very few people actually use the CD anyway [05:32] lots and lots of LTSP [05:32] but seems like people mostly don't care much about the Educational apps [05:32] forget about that, its a package [05:32] edubuntu+ltsp [05:32] well, i can't speak for ltsp, but i can speak for interested parents and children [05:32] right! [05:33] well, I'd love to do more with that [05:33] but honestly, Canonical is after big school contracts [05:33] which they cannot do without both [05:33] I'm not sure they have much of any interest in home use [05:34] they want large institutional server use [05:34] and enterprise desktops [05:34] thats fine.. its still edubuntu [05:34] right, that's certainly a valid approach [05:34] it's Ubuntu [05:34] they want an educational desktop [05:34] it's not Edubuntu [05:34] why not? [05:35] Edubuntu is a community/project focused on educational apps [05:35] i.e. it's not a server nor a desktop [05:35] I think thats the wrong focus... it should be thin clients with edu [05:36] I think the problem with edubuntu is that it can't target all primary/secondary/high schools from all different countries. E.g. in greek secondary schools we only use 2-3 apps from edubuntu (so most people don't install it), in high schools 4-5 _different_ apps... [05:36] ok [05:36] alkisg: why, whats wrong with the other apps? [05:36] are there programs we can add that would help? [05:36] They are just not part of what we have to teach the kids [05:37] so we need to work on that [05:37] what can we do to make it more appropriate [05:38] In _my_ opinion, what I'd like would be this: edubuntu = (1) a collection of meta-packages, like edubuntu-el-high-schools or edubuntu-br-secondary-schools, (2) an easy way for a teacher = maintainer to build this meta-package, and (3) a way to download all this and build an add-on cd where bandwidth is a problem [05:39] It's really different from what edubuntu is now, but it would be something I'd find really useful. [05:39] yup metapackages is a big focus now, right? [05:40] yeah [05:40] and its damn easy [05:40] but in a practical sense, I'm not sure we can do country-specific metapackages terribly easily [05:41] forget country specific, start with levels... [05:41] pri, sec, uni, or whatever [05:41] LaserJock: why? Why can't I just select 5-10 packages and build a meta-package out of them? [05:42] well, we need a base [05:42] well, let me think a sec [05:43] crimsun: dont go away, give your input too [05:43] (sorry, not away, but just doing audio debugging) [05:43] so basically we can maintain the packages [05:44] and provide a metapackage/CD tool [05:44] LaserJock: no, not the packages, just the _way_ for teachers of specific countries to build & host their meta-packages [05:44] so you select from a predefined list of packages and you get out a .iso? [05:45] Yeap. Select some packages, and name this "mycountry-edubuntu-package". Then also have an option to download this to a cd. [05:45] right, but we need to maintain the software [05:45] sounds like a ppa [05:45] One teacher would be needed for each country as a maintainer [05:45] crimsun: except I think they need .isos [05:45] right, that's a tough one [05:46] can't necessarily rely on canonical's livefs infrastructure, but there are community-maintained tools [05:46] we could try to make a customized debian-cd script [05:46] But we shouldn't expect him to know about PPAs and packages, he should just be able to follow a wizard-like package builder. [05:46] crimsun: we don't need livefs [05:46] oh, so this would just be for customised add-on images, then? [05:46] yep [05:47] so how about this as an idea to throw out [05:47] with a base of what most users would need... [05:47] we create a CD that has all the edu apps + a GUI tool that lets you pick from the packages on the CD and makes you a new .iso [05:48] ISO's could be built with a script that uses the normal packages, they (=ISOs) don't have to be hosted in repositories... [05:48] yep sounds good [05:48] although ... [05:49] that seems sort of redundant [05:49] But my main point here is that e.g. a greek secondary school teacher should be able to select "edubuntu-el-sec" which the greek maintainer prepared for him [05:49] all you'd need is a list of packages to install [05:49] Even online, without having a cd [05:49] right, sounds good [05:50] alkisg: *if* we had greek maintainers that would be awesome [05:51] but my concern is we don't even have maintainers for the software to start with [05:51] LaserJock: if all it takes is some package selection, I'm sure you'll find lots of maintainers [05:51] But it shouldn't be difficult [05:52] So in my opinion edubuntu should be the infrastructure that makes this easy for the teachers=maintainers. As simple as selecting some packages for each education level/country. [05:52] well, yeah, that would make sense [05:53] if there are no maintainers default to english [05:53] yeap ^^ [05:53] Or to plain "edubuntu", with all the packages selected [05:53] well, we are going to have defaults for Jaunty [05:53] ok, explain... [05:54] ubuntu-edu-preschool, ubuntu-edu-primary, ubuntu-edu-secondary, and ubuntu-edu-tertiary [05:56] yep sounds good... [05:56] I guess that should be a good start [05:57] then we can ask if people would like to volunteer as country/region maintainers [05:58] LaserJock: to make it easier, you could premake all the packages and fill them with default values [05:59] Then, if a maintainer shows up, he'll just need to modify the default list [05:59] well ... [05:59] I'm not particularly convinced, to tell you the truth [05:59] we don't have *that* many apps [05:59] how much difference is there going to be? [06:00] Teachers in specific countries may need apps not currently in edubuntu [06:00] ok, but we can't really do anything about that [06:00] and we can't put packages in that depend on non-existent packages [06:01] Sure, the maintainer will just put them in the package [06:01] The packages exist, but e.g. in ubuntu, not in edubuntu [06:01] I understand what alkisg is saying [06:01] ok, but why wouldn't Edubuntu have it then? [06:02] because it has a lot of missing packages [06:02] but yes, it should have those included [06:02] E.g. would you put clamav in edubuntu? [06:02] no reason we can't [06:02] The greek ministry insists that clamav be installed in all greek schools... [06:03] But others may not want it, or there could be a space problem (> 700MB) [06:03] but right now we are using 300 MB [06:03] we have 400MB left [06:03] its not the point... [06:03] Also, we install wine and some greek educational apps [06:04] there are lots of things we can do, but we need people to get involved with it actually happening [06:04] nubae: I realize that [06:04] right,so lets set a date [06:04] my concern is having a bunch of people creating a ton of packages [06:04] when it's just me sitting here trying to make this thing work [06:05] LaserJock: right now u are the dictator... we listen to u for what happens [06:05] no, no, not like that :-) [06:05] yes, its necessary :-) [06:05] but I can see lots of people working on these meta packages while the actual programs fall apart [06:05] we have over 200 open bugs [06:05] and we should really add more programs [06:05] right which is the reason we have u [06:06] heh [06:06] LaserJock: what programs? Aren't the programs maintained upstream? [06:06] somewhat [06:06] but we get lots of bugs [06:06] sometimes there are Ubuntu-specific issues [06:07] sometimes there are bugs we haven't integrated fixes for [06:07] sometimes we just need to forward the bug reports on upstream [06:07] OK, but it's not like they are _edu_buntu specific... [06:07] yes [06:07] edubuntu should be the infrastructure, not the packages [06:07] no [06:07] that's not right [06:07] ideally maybe [06:08] ideally for sure [06:08] but there is *nobody* but us maintaining these packages in Ubuntu [06:08] if we don't deal with the bugs they'll just end up sitting there or closed [06:08] are there really 200 bugs in edubuntu? [06:08] certainly upstreams and Debian are great helps, we couldn't do it at all if it wasn't for them [06:09] nubae: open ones, yes [06:09] k, Ill try tackle some of that [06:09] 12 in gcompris presently [06:09] So if LaserJock decides that he hates PCs, there won't be a newer Kolourpaint or Dia or tuxpaint package? :P [06:09] unsurpinsingly... but just spoke to u about that [06:09] Kolourpaint and dia there will be [06:10] OK, gcompris: why does edubuntu have to fix it's bugs? [06:10] alkisg: right LaserJock is our dictator [06:10] alkisg: because nobody else will [06:10] I mean, you gotta have devs ... [06:10] that's how a distro works [06:10] But gcompris is also ubuntu supported, isn't it? [06:10] right at least we need to shout and send upststream [06:11] alkisg: well, yes, that's why I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer [06:11] funny I asked same question [06:11] you can't assume somebody else will take care of it [06:11] is gcompris really supported or not? [06:12] well, yes [06:12] but what "supported" means might not be what you think it does [06:12] LaserJock: thanks, just trying to understand how these things work... [06:12] alkisg: no problemo [06:13] technically anything in the Main repository is supported by the Ubuntu Core Developers [06:13] as a team [06:13] LaserJock: I think its important to note how many people are interested in keeping edubuntu alive [06:13] but on a practical level, much of the Ubuntu Core Developer team is paid by Canonical to do specific things *or* they are volunteers who work on whatever they like [06:14] I guess what I'm saying is that you should maintain gcompris as part of you being "Ubuntu Core Developer", but not as part of you being our belevolent edubuntu monarch... :) Edubuntu doesn't have enough man power to be focusing on bugs... But then again, it's just my newbie opinion [06:14] how man people does Canonical employ acutallly? [06:15] so if 1) canonical (or some other company) doesn't pay somebody to maintain gcompris and 2) no volunteer Core Dev doesn't have an interest there's really very little maintenance of gcompris [06:15] nubae: to work on Ubuntu? [06:15] or as a whole [06:15] yeah [06:15] whole [06:15] 200+ I think [06:15] mostly working on Launchpad [06:16] course, their product [06:16] Canonical pays something like 50 people or so on Ubuntu [06:16] crazy... thats nothing [06:16] hmm, could be less, not sure [06:16] sounds right [06:17] well, at one point Red Hat employeed more people to work on the kernel than Canonical had on all of Ubuntu [06:17] ubuntu doesnt pay anyone to work on kernel [06:17] canonical [06:17] well, we have kernel maintainers [06:18] really? [06:18] who work some on the kernel as well [06:18] oh sure [06:18] Ben Collins was the first guy, he was formerly a Debian Project Leader [06:19] but there's maybe 4-5 Canonical people that work on the kernel in Ubuntu [06:20] when I first started there were really only a handful of Canonical peoplel [06:20] 10-15 working on Ubuntu [06:21] so I heard canonical doesnt make money yet, shuttleworth is just spending at the moment [06:22] yep [06:22] probably won't for a couple years yet [06:22] not terribly surprising [06:23] though Canonical has more time than if Mark wasn't behind it [06:23] sending out postage-paid CDs all over the world isn't cheap [06:23]