[04:25] <nubae> Ahmuck: well, its like having 2 maintenance setups, one thin, one fat... inet should work fine out of the box... if it doesn't please check /etc/network/interfaces
[04:26] <LaserJock> hi nubae
[04:26] <LaserJock> nubae: how's it going?
[04:27] <nubae> hey LaserJock
[04:27] <nubae> not too bad... not a lot of work, since its the holidays and all
[04:27] <nubae> how bout u?
[04:28] <LaserJock> been doing some bug work
[04:28] <LaserJock> got qcad all triaged
[04:28] <nubae> insectisides :-)
[04:28] <LaserJock> working on gcompris now
[04:29] <nubae> gcompris has a problem with sound on ltsp... SDL based
[04:29] <nubae> run it with sound on a couple systems and the network will go down
[04:30] <LaserJock> gosh, gcompris too?
[04:30] <nubae> yep
[04:30] <nubae> everything SDL based
[04:30] <LaserJock> that sucks :(
[04:30] <nubae> yeah its a serious problem, especially since Canonical claims to support these progs
[04:31] <nubae> but ltsp is a different beast I suppose
[04:31] <nubae> I think we need to shout a bit harder to get the SDL people involved
[04:31] <nubae> think about how many edu apps are SDL based... its a lot
[04:32] <nubae> u have a good xmas btw?
[04:32] <LaserJock> well, "support" is not very well defined
[04:32] <LaserJock> yeah, it's been a pretty good christmas
[04:33] <nubae> well, thats not helpful for deployments in schools...
[04:33] <nubae> if we cannot state what is supported and not....
[04:33] <LaserJock> that's Linux
[04:33] <nubae> well its got to be clear, either its supported, or not...
[04:34] <LaserJock> well, it's supported in the sense that you can by a support contract
[04:34] <nubae> i can't deploy in a school and say, it MIGHT be supported
[04:34] <nubae> really, u think Canonical would fix all SDL based apps if the school in question paid?
[04:34] <LaserJock> and if you do that and then complain about SDL then I guess they'd look into it
[04:34] <LaserJock> they'd look into it, I mean they aren't miracle workers :-)
[04:34] <nubae> ok, well I can test that theory...
[04:35] <nubae> I'm deploying several schools here in Austria in January
[04:35] <LaserJock> but I believe that's the point of buying support
[04:35] <nubae> lets see what happens
[04:35] <LaserJock> you're supposed to be able to call them up and say "heh, this doesn't work, what are you gonna do about it?"
[04:36] <nubae> that would mean canonical would pay the SDL programmers to fix their stuff
[04:36] <nubae> for ltsp
[04:36] <LaserJock> I doubt it
[04:36] <nubae> I guess until now, there has been no incentive
[04:37] <LaserJock> the Canonical support engineer might try to find a workaround or perhaps bug some upstreams
[04:37] <nubae> yeah the workaround we got now was.... don't run sound
[04:37] <LaserJock> I doubt Canonical would actually pay somebody to fix it, but you never know
[04:37] <LaserJock> I honestly know close to 0 about Canonical's support
[04:37] <nubae> well if the school in question pays a support contract I would hope so
[04:37] <nubae> otherwise I will advise them not to pay any support contract
[04:37] <LaserJock> I've been in Ubuntu for over 3 years and I haven't seen them do anything
[04:38] <nubae> hmmmm
[04:38] <LaserJock> but I think they stay pretty busy so they must do *something*
[04:38] <nubae> hows it work with tuxlabs... they have 200 deployments
[04:38] <nubae> surely they have complaints
[04:40] <LaserJock> honestly though right now I don't know exactly where Canonical is in all this
[04:40] <LaserJock> I think they're kinda trying to figure what to do with Education
[04:40] <nubae> well when I spoke to Riched last, he seemed pretty committed
[04:41] <LaserJock> realistically Canonical can't just fix everything, you know
[04:41] <nubae> right, understand that, but the SDL thing is not a little thing
[04:41] <nubae> it affects almost 50% of the programs in edubuntu
[04:41] <LaserJock> well
[04:42] <LaserJock> right
[04:42] <LaserJock> but if they are looking at having to fix a kernel bug that affect 5 million people or a LTSP bug ...
[04:42] <LaserJock> it's a matter of prioritization
[04:42] <nubae> right, I get that, but they do have a dedictated person for education, right?
[04:43] <LaserJock> not that I know of
[04:43] <nubae> Riched
[04:43] <LaserJock> he's not a support person
[04:43] <LaserJock> his management
[04:43] <LaserJock> he doesn't do support or development
[04:43] <nubae> k... well they better start outsource to u or me or someone
[04:44] <LaserJock> we'll see
[04:44] <LaserJock> I've been trying to make the case
[04:44] <LaserJock> especially as there are some rather large Edubuntu deployments out there
[04:44] <nubae> the education market is massive, just here I can tell u the numbers are massive
[04:44] <LaserJock> I mean, I don't want to scare people off of Ubuntu?Edubuntu
[04:45] <LaserJock> I think it's great for Linux
[04:45] <LaserJock> but at this point there is almost no Canonical interest that I can find
[04:45] <nubae> it is, the netbook market alone has oppened great opportunities
[04:45] <LaserJock> so it's up to us volunteers to keep it going
[04:45] <nubae> well, in terms of netbooks... they are very interested in getting support for that officially
[04:45] <LaserJock> if Canonical see's Edubuntu growing and making a difference I think they'd be willing to help
[04:46] <LaserJock> but I don't think they want to do it alone, IMO at least
[04:46] <nubae> right
[04:46] <LaserJock> yes, netbooks are huge
[04:46] <nubae> not sure if they see that as education thought
[04:47] <LaserJock> nope
[04:47] <LaserJock> well, they do
[04:47] <LaserJock> but not in terms of Edubuntu or educational apps
[04:47] <LaserJock> well, that's not exactly true
[04:47] <LaserJock> I mean, they work quite a bit with OEMs, etc.
[04:48] <nubae> yeah right now with 1
[04:48] <nubae> dell
[04:48] <LaserJock> but I don't think they're very concerned with Education in the sense of educational apps/tools/content
[04:48] <nubae> they want all the others to send samples of their netbooks and pay them for testing
[04:48] <LaserJock> they just want to deliver Ubuntu on netbooks
[04:50] <LaserJock> I haven't seen a lot of emphasis on actual educational content
[04:50] <nubae> true, me either, though they are interested in sugar
[04:50] <nubae> because of its publicity
[04:51] <LaserJock> yeah
[04:51] <LaserJock> but we need to grow a developer community
[04:52] <LaserJock> we need work done or we die, essentially
[04:52] <nubae> difficult when there are about 5 active people or less
[04:52] <LaserJock> yep
[04:53] <nubae> what do u suggest?
[04:53] <LaserJock> it's not an easy problem
[04:54] <LaserJock> somehow we need to convince Edubuntu users that it's worth their time to contribute
[04:54] <nubae> so bombard them with emails?
[04:54] <LaserJock> we need to then have the infrastructure and leadership to to have a place for them to land
[04:54] <nubae> I think we need to revive edubuntu-devel
[04:54] <LaserJock> yep
[04:55] <nubae> at least u and I could start sending out emails
[04:55] <nubae> writing whatever
[04:55] <nubae> morning alkisg
[04:56] <nubae> I'll commit myself to write an email every couple days... and i u do the same, think we could spark something on the mailing list... there are a lot of dormant users
[04:56] <alkisg> good morning nubae and everyone!
[04:56] <LaserJock> hi alkisg
[04:57] <nubae> what u doing up at 6!
[04:57] <alkisg> Heh... I quit smoking, and now I can't sleep!! But it's 7:00, so good enough today, yesterday I woke up at 3:00!!!
[04:57] <nubae> heh, hear ya, insomnia is bad... its 6 here....
[04:58] <alkisg> You just woke up or you didn't get to bed yet! ???
[04:58] <nubae> the latter... came back from a party....
[04:58] <nubae> but insomnia nevertheless
[04:59] <alkisg> Programming after a hangover produces a lot of bugs... beware!!! :P
[04:59] <nubae> no hangover yet....
[04:59] <nubae> LaserJock: so whatcha think... send a couple emails every couple days to revive the list?
[04:59] <alkisg> nubae: what was wrong with your domain some days ago? was it hacked?
[05:00] <LaserJock> nubae: what are you planning on saying?
[05:01] <nubae> no... finally got it to my own registrar, and it had default dns servers, even though I had changed it before
[05:01] <nubae> LaserJock: well, a description of projects we are doing and how to get involved for a start
[05:01] <nubae> and stating that edubuntu needs volunteers
[05:02] <nubae> laying out the future
[05:02] <nubae> right now its dead because no one knows what is going on, but we know at least a couple of things that are happening
[05:04] <LaserJock> nubae: well, we should get a list together
[05:04] <LaserJock> I was hoping the Strategy Doc would help
[05:04] <LaserJock> so I need to finish that
[05:04] <nubae> it would if it was complete
[05:04] <nubae> yeah..
[05:05] <alkisg> You could even put something like this on the wiki, cause it's really not clear what edubuntu is right now and where it's going...
[05:05] <nubae> right!
[05:05] <nubae> write whatever u can, and I'll help...
[05:06] <nubae> we just cannot rely on Canonical to get inolved anymore
[05:07] <nubae> anyway, we have at least 4 people interested in progressing this, Ahmuck, LaserJock, alkisg, nubae
[05:12] <LaserJock> so I think if we got a list of things to do
[05:12] <LaserJock> had a meeting
[05:12] <alkisg> ...Don't let me get the conversation out of track, but I was wondering if edubuntu should primarily target kubuntu and not ubuntu, with most of the apps being part of kde-edu... I've been using plain ubuntu/ltsp so far, and I only installed the edubuntu add-on cd once, but it installed so may kde* stuff that I think it would be better if I had kubuntu..
[05:12] <LaserJock> divided up the task and got to work
[05:13] <LaserJock> alkisg: I think it's mostly desktop-neutral
[05:13] <LaserJock> I think one of the problems is that KDE had KDE Edu
[05:13] <LaserJock> but beyond that there's not a ton
[05:14] <LaserJock> I have been working on our edubuntu-desktop-kde meta packages
[05:16] <alkisg> If someone installs edubuntu on kde, doesn't it install 50-100Mb _fewer_ than if it's installed on gnome?
[05:16] <LaserJock> nope
[05:16] <LaserJock> because we have lots of Gnome libs
[05:16] <nubae> must be about the same one both
[05:16] <alkisg> I see...
[05:16] <LaserJock> you're kind of stuck either direction
[05:16] <nubae> anyway, why does that matter?
[05:17] <LaserJock> but we do have to pick one
[05:17] <nubae> well, edubuntu should be its own distro... IMHO
[05:17] <LaserJock> we *just* got rid of that :-)
[05:18] <nubae> yeah I know, I think it was a mistake
[05:18] <LaserJock> we basically can't support doing our own full distro
[05:18] <nubae> but nevermind
[05:18] <alkisg> Nubae, what does being a distro offer that a meta-package cannot?
[05:18] <LaserJock> well, it wasn't a matter of mistake or not, it was basically the only thing we could do
[05:18] <nubae> well, if u are deploying to a school or uni, and u say, here is the edubuntu distro...
[05:19] <nubae> they will take u far more seriously than if u say, well, we have this addon cd....
[05:19] <LaserJock> right
[05:19] <nubae> the edubuntu name is known
[05:20] <nubae> respected in many casese
[05:20] <LaserJock> Canonical wants to say "here's Ubuntu, and you can also add on educational apps using the Education CD"
[05:20] <nubae> which means nothing to a school or uni
[05:20] <alkisg> Ah, yeah, I know about that!!! I had to write a newer version of a manual "installing edubuntu in greek schools", and I had to rename it to "installing ubuntu/ltsp and adding the edubuntu cd later..." :P It lost some "magic".
[05:20] <LaserJock> and given that we simply can't maintain a distro ..
[05:21] <nubae> why can kubuntu maintain itself and edubuntu not?
[05:21] <LaserJock> no people
[05:21] <nubae> whats the missing piece of the puzzle?
[05:21] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is too much of a niche distro and doesn't appeal to geeks
[05:21] <nubae> I dont know what to say to that
[05:22] <LaserJock> we've never been able to attract the high-school/university student that makes Ubuntu/Kubuntu, etc. thrive
[05:22] <LaserJock> school admins don't want to contribute in enough numbers
[05:22] <nubae> well, edubuntu died the minute the name started to be disputed
[05:22] <nubae> it was thriving before
[05:23] <nubae> then suddenly list went dead
[05:23] <LaserJock> even at it's height, with the same number of Canonical people working on Edubuntu as Kubuntu (1)
[05:23] <LaserJock> we never had nearly the development community
[05:23] <LaserJock> not enough to sustain a full distro with 2 CDs
[05:24] <nubae> there are 2 sides to this... one is the desktop/artwork
[05:24] <nubae> the other the programs
[05:25] <nubae> we should, even with 4 people be able to maintain that
[05:25] <LaserJock> well
[05:25] <nubae> granted, LaserJock is heavily weighed down with the packaging part....
[05:26] <LaserJock> doing a full distro is a heck of a lot of work
[05:27] <LaserJock> working with what we've got, I think 4 people can make a big dent
[05:27] <crimsun> keep in mind that a few people are also working with upstreams, so edubuntu will reap the benefits through debian
[05:27] <nubae> k, so what can we do?
[05:28] <nubae> maybe set up a meet
[05:28] <crimsun> personally, there's very little advocacy for edubuntu, and i'm changing that as i give ubuntu dev talks to college acm meetings
[05:29] <LaserJock> I talked to RichEd and it looks like the 7th of Jan. is a go for a meeting
[05:29] <nubae> crimsun: but do believe there is hope for a edubntu distro?
[05:29] <LaserJock> nubae: as a distinct distro?
[05:30] <nubae> distinct or not... a brand
[05:30] <crimsun> sure
[05:30] <nubae> so lets go for that
[05:30] <crimsun> a significant number of people (by my admittedly narrow sampling pool of metro DC) have kids who use edubuntu
[05:31] <nubae> same here
[05:31] <LaserJock> do they actually use Edubuntu?
[05:31] <nubae> my users do
[05:32] <LaserJock> seems like to me very few people actually use the CD anyway
[05:32] <LaserJock> lots and lots of LTSP
[05:32] <LaserJock> but seems like people mostly don't care much about the Educational apps
[05:32] <nubae> forget about that, its a package
[05:32] <nubae> edubuntu+ltsp
[05:32] <crimsun> well, i can't speak for ltsp, but i can speak for interested parents and children
[05:32] <nubae> right!
[05:33] <LaserJock> well, I'd love to do more with that
[05:33] <LaserJock> but honestly, Canonical is after big school contracts
[05:33] <nubae> which they cannot do without both
[05:33] <LaserJock> I'm not sure they have much of any interest in home use
[05:34] <LaserJock> they want large institutional server use
[05:34] <LaserJock> and enterprise desktops
[05:34] <nubae> thats fine.. its still edubuntu
[05:34] <crimsun> right, that's certainly a valid approach
[05:34] <LaserJock> it's Ubuntu
[05:34] <nubae> they want an educational desktop
[05:34] <LaserJock> it's not Edubuntu
[05:34] <nubae> why not?
[05:35] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is a community/project focused on educational apps
[05:35] <LaserJock> i.e. it's not a server nor a desktop
[05:35] <nubae> I think thats the wrong focus... it should be thin clients with edu
[05:36] <alkisg> I think the problem with edubuntu is that it can't target all primary/secondary/high schools from all different countries. E.g. in greek secondary schools we only use 2-3 apps from edubuntu (so most people don't install it), in high schools 4-5 _different_ apps...
[05:36] <LaserJock> ok
[05:36] <nubae> alkisg: why, whats wrong with the other apps?
[05:36] <LaserJock> are there programs we can add that would help?
[05:36] <alkisg> They are just not part of what we have to teach the kids
[05:37] <nubae> so we need to work on that
[05:37] <nubae> what can we do to make it more appropriate
[05:38] <alkisg> In _my_ opinion, what I'd like would be this: edubuntu = (1) a collection of meta-packages, like edubuntu-el-high-schools or edubuntu-br-secondary-schools, (2) an easy way for a teacher = maintainer to build this meta-package, and (3) a way to download all this and build an add-on cd where bandwidth is a problem
[05:39] <alkisg> It's really different from what edubuntu is now, but it would be something I'd find really useful.
[05:39] <nubae> yup metapackages is a big focus now, right?
[05:40] <LaserJock> yeah
[05:40] <nubae> and its damn easy
[05:40] <LaserJock> but in a practical sense, I'm not sure we can do country-specific metapackages terribly easily
[05:41] <nubae> forget country specific, start with levels...
[05:41] <nubae> pri, sec, uni, or whatever
[05:41] <alkisg> LaserJock: why? Why can't I just select 5-10 packages and build a meta-package out of them?
[05:42] <nubae> well, we need a base
[05:42] <LaserJock> well, let me think a sec
[05:43] <nubae> crimsun: dont go away, give your input too
[05:43] <crimsun> (sorry, not away, but just doing audio debugging)
[05:43] <LaserJock> so basically we can maintain the packages
[05:44] <LaserJock> and provide a metapackage/CD tool
[05:44] <alkisg> LaserJock: no, not the packages, just the _way_ for teachers of specific countries to build & host their meta-packages
[05:44] <LaserJock> so you select from a predefined list of packages and you get out a .iso?
[05:45] <alkisg> Yeap. Select some packages, and name this "mycountry-edubuntu-package". Then also have an option to download this to a cd.
[05:45] <LaserJock> right, but we need to maintain the software
[05:45] <crimsun> sounds like a ppa
[05:45] <alkisg> One teacher would be needed for each country as a maintainer
[05:45] <LaserJock> crimsun: except I think they need .isos
[05:45] <crimsun> right, that's a tough one
[05:46] <crimsun> can't necessarily rely on canonical's livefs infrastructure, but there are community-maintained tools
[05:46] <LaserJock> we could try to make a customized debian-cd script
[05:46] <alkisg> But we shouldn't expect him to know about PPAs and packages, he should just be able to follow a wizard-like package builder.
[05:46] <LaserJock> crimsun: we don't need livefs
[05:46] <crimsun> oh, so this would just be for customised add-on images, then?
[05:46] <LaserJock> yep
[05:47] <LaserJock> so how about this as an idea to throw out
[05:47] <nubae> with a base of what most users would need...
[05:47] <LaserJock> we create a CD that has all the edu apps + a GUI tool that lets you pick from the packages on the CD and makes you a new .iso
[05:48] <alkisg> ISO's could be built with a script that uses the normal packages, they (=ISOs) don't have to be hosted in repositories...
[05:48] <nubae> yep sounds good
[05:48] <LaserJock> although ...
[05:49] <LaserJock> that seems sort of redundant
[05:49] <alkisg> But my main point here is that e.g. a greek secondary school teacher should be able to select "edubuntu-el-sec" which the greek maintainer prepared for him
[05:49] <LaserJock> all you'd need is a list of packages to install
[05:49] <alkisg> Even online, without having a cd
[05:49] <nubae> right, sounds good
[05:50] <LaserJock> alkisg: *if* we had greek maintainers that would be awesome
[05:51] <LaserJock> but my concern is we don't even have maintainers for the software to start with
[05:51] <alkisg> LaserJock: if all it takes is some package selection, I'm sure you'll find lots of maintainers
[05:51] <alkisg> But it shouldn't be difficult
[05:52] <alkisg> So in my opinion edubuntu should be the infrastructure that makes this easy for the teachers=maintainers. As simple as selecting some packages for each education level/country.
[05:52] <LaserJock> well, yeah, that would make sense
[05:53] <nubae> if there are no maintainers default to english
[05:53] <alkisg> yeap ^^
[05:53] <alkisg> Or to plain "edubuntu", with all the packages selected
[05:53] <LaserJock> well, we are going to have defaults for Jaunty
[05:53] <nubae> ok, explain...
[05:54] <LaserJock> ubuntu-edu-preschool, ubuntu-edu-primary, ubuntu-edu-secondary, and ubuntu-edu-tertiary
[05:56] <nubae> yep sounds good...
[05:56] <LaserJock> I guess that should be a good start
[05:57] <LaserJock> then we can ask if people would like to volunteer as country/region maintainers
[05:58] <alkisg> LaserJock: to make it easier, you could premake all the packages and fill them with default values
[05:59] <alkisg> Then, if a maintainer shows up, he'll just need to modify the default list
[05:59] <LaserJock> well ...
[05:59] <LaserJock> I'm not particularly convinced, to tell you the truth
[05:59] <LaserJock> we don't have *that* many apps
[05:59] <LaserJock> how much difference is there going to be?
[06:00] <alkisg> Teachers in specific countries may need apps not currently in edubuntu
[06:00] <LaserJock> ok, but we can't really do anything about that
[06:00] <LaserJock> and we can't put packages in that depend on non-existent packages
[06:01] <alkisg> Sure, the maintainer will just put them in the package
[06:01] <alkisg> The packages exist, but e.g. in ubuntu, not in edubuntu
[06:01] <nubae> I understand what alkisg is saying
[06:01] <LaserJock> ok, but why wouldn't Edubuntu have it then?
[06:02] <nubae> because it has a lot of missing packages
[06:02] <nubae> but yes, it should have those included
[06:02] <alkisg> E.g. would you put clamav in edubuntu?
[06:02] <LaserJock> no reason we can't
[06:02] <alkisg> The greek ministry insists that clamav be installed in all greek schools...
[06:03] <alkisg> But others may not want it, or there could be a space problem (> 700MB)
[06:03] <LaserJock> but right now we are using 300 MB
[06:03] <LaserJock> we have 400MB left
[06:03] <nubae> its not the point...
[06:03] <alkisg> Also, we install wine and some greek educational apps
[06:04] <LaserJock> there are lots of things we can do, but we need people to get involved with it actually happening
[06:04] <LaserJock> nubae: I realize that
[06:04] <nubae> right,so lets set a date
[06:04] <LaserJock> my concern is having a bunch of people creating a ton of packages
[06:04] <LaserJock> when it's just me sitting here trying to make this thing work
[06:05] <nubae> LaserJock: right now u are the dictator... we listen to u for what happens
[06:05] <LaserJock> no, no, not like that :-)
[06:05] <nubae> yes, its necessary :-)
[06:05] <LaserJock> but I can see lots of people working on these meta packages while the actual programs fall apart
[06:05] <LaserJock> we have over 200 open bugs
[06:05] <LaserJock> and we should really add more programs
[06:05] <nubae> right which is the reason we have u
[06:06] <LaserJock> heh
[06:06] <alkisg> LaserJock: what programs? Aren't the programs maintained upstream?
[06:06] <LaserJock> somewhat
[06:06] <LaserJock> but we get lots of bugs
[06:06] <LaserJock> sometimes there are Ubuntu-specific issues
[06:07] <LaserJock> sometimes there are bugs we haven't integrated fixes for
[06:07] <LaserJock> sometimes we just need to forward the bug reports on upstream
[06:07] <alkisg> OK, but it's not like they are _edu_buntu specific...
[06:07] <LaserJock> yes
[06:07] <alkisg> edubuntu should be the infrastructure, not the packages
[06:07] <LaserJock> no
[06:07] <LaserJock> that's not right
[06:07] <LaserJock> ideally maybe
[06:08] <nubae> ideally for sure
[06:08] <LaserJock> but there is *nobody* but us maintaining these packages in Ubuntu
[06:08] <LaserJock> if we don't deal with the bugs they'll just end up sitting there or closed
[06:08] <nubae> are there really 200 bugs in edubuntu?
[06:08] <LaserJock> certainly upstreams and Debian are great helps, we couldn't do it at all if it wasn't for them
[06:09] <LaserJock> nubae: open ones, yes
[06:09] <nubae> k, Ill try tackle some of that
[06:09] <LaserJock> 12 in gcompris presently
[06:09] <alkisg> So if LaserJock decides that he hates PCs, there won't be a newer Kolourpaint or Dia or tuxpaint package? :P
[06:09] <nubae> unsurpinsingly... but just spoke to u about that
[06:09] <LaserJock> Kolourpaint and dia there will be
[06:10] <alkisg> OK, gcompris: why does edubuntu have to fix it's bugs?
[06:10] <nubae> alkisg: right LaserJock is our dictator
[06:10] <LaserJock> alkisg: because nobody else will
[06:10] <LaserJock> I mean, you gotta have devs ...
[06:10] <LaserJock> that's how a distro works
[06:10] <alkisg> But gcompris is also ubuntu supported, isn't it?
[06:10] <nubae> right at least we need to shout and send upststream
[06:11] <LaserJock> alkisg: well, yes, that's why I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer
[06:11] <nubae> funny I asked same question
[06:11] <LaserJock> you can't assume somebody else will take care of it
[06:11] <nubae> is gcompris really supported or not?
[06:12] <LaserJock> well, yes
[06:12] <LaserJock> but what "supported" means might not be what you think it does
[06:12] <alkisg> LaserJock: thanks, just trying to understand how these things work...
[06:12] <LaserJock> alkisg: no problemo
[06:13] <LaserJock> technically anything in the Main repository is supported by the Ubuntu Core Developers
[06:13] <LaserJock> as a team
[06:13] <nubae> LaserJock: I think its important to note how many people are interested in keeping edubuntu alive
[06:13] <LaserJock> but on a practical level, much of the Ubuntu Core Developer team is paid by Canonical to do specific things *or* they are volunteers who work on whatever they like
[06:14] <alkisg> I guess what I'm saying is that you should maintain gcompris as part of you being "Ubuntu Core Developer", but not as part of you being our belevolent edubuntu monarch... :) Edubuntu doesn't have enough man power to be focusing on bugs... But then again, it's just my newbie opinion
[06:14] <nubae> how man people does Canonical employ acutallly?
[06:15] <LaserJock> so if  1) canonical (or some other company) doesn't pay somebody to maintain gcompris and 2) no volunteer Core Dev doesn't have an interest there's really very little maintenance of gcompris
[06:15] <LaserJock> nubae: to work on Ubuntu?
[06:15] <LaserJock> or as a whole
[06:15] <nubae> yeah
[06:15] <nubae> whole
[06:15] <LaserJock> 200+ I think
[06:15] <LaserJock> mostly working on Launchpad
[06:16] <nubae> course, their product
[06:16] <LaserJock> Canonical pays something like 50 people or so on Ubuntu
[06:16] <nubae> crazy... thats nothing
[06:16] <LaserJock> hmm, could be less, not sure
[06:16] <nubae> sounds right
[06:17] <LaserJock> well, at one point Red Hat employeed more people to work on the kernel than Canonical had on all of Ubuntu
[06:17] <nubae> ubuntu doesnt pay anyone to work on kernel
[06:17] <nubae> canonical
[06:17] <LaserJock> well, we have kernel maintainers
[06:18] <nubae> really?
[06:18] <LaserJock> who work some on the kernel as well
[06:18] <LaserJock> oh sure
[06:18] <LaserJock> Ben Collins was the first guy, he was formerly a Debian Project Leader
[06:19] <LaserJock> but there's maybe 4-5 Canonical people that work on the kernel in Ubuntu
[06:20] <LaserJock> when I first started there were really only a handful of Canonical peoplel
[06:20] <LaserJock> 10-15 working on Ubuntu
[06:21] <nubae> so I heard canonical doesnt make money yet, shuttleworth is just spending at the moment
[06:22] <LaserJock> yep
[06:22] <LaserJock> probably won't for a couple years yet
[06:22] <LaserJock> not terribly surprising
[06:23] <LaserJock> though Canonical has more time than if Mark wasn't behind it
[06:23] <LaserJock> sending out postage-paid CDs all over the world isn't cheap
[06:23] <LaserJock> neither is paying for developer summits and sprint :-)
[06:25] <nubae> k so when is next meeting?
[06:25] <LaserJock> Jan. 7th
[06:25] <nubae> k cool
[06:25] <nubae> time?
[06:25] <LaserJock> alkisg: ^^ can you make it?
[06:26] <LaserJock> nubae: dunno, what sounds good?
[06:26] <nubae> u tell me
[06:26] <LaserJock> let's see, I'm on the weird time
[06:27] <LaserJock> 16 or 17:00 UTC is good for me I think
[06:28] <LaserJock> bah, that's the Foundations Team meeting time :/
[06:28] <LaserJock> 19:00 UTC ok?
[06:29] <nubae> yep,ok for me
[06:30] <LaserJock> that'll be pretty late for RichEd I think
[06:30] <LaserJock> but if we want to do it in #ubuntu-meeting that's the best we can do i think
[06:31] <nubae> well thats 9 european time
[06:31] <nubae> im same time zone as riched
[06:32] <LaserJock> I think he's +2
[06:32] <nubae> 9 at night
[06:32] <nubae> right
[06:32] <nubae> me too
[06:32] <LaserJock> nubae: do you know how to get the list of Edubuntu bugs?
[06:33] <nubae> not exactly no, tell me
[06:33] <LaserJock> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs
[06:34] <nubae> u realise half that stuff is due to SDL?
[06:34] <LaserJock> not half, but some
[06:34] <nubae> ok, at least 30%
[06:34] <LaserJock> so there are 241 open, 208 not assigned to anybody, and 5 listed as "In Progress"
[06:34] <nubae> can name them if u want
[06:34] <alkisg> LaserJock: sorry, was away. Sure, I can make it.
[06:35] <LaserJock> I've only seen a handful of SDL bugs
[06:35] <LaserJock> alkisg: great
[06:35] <nubae> ok, anything with tux in front of it
[06:35] <nubae> then gcompris, atomix, gpaint
[06:35] <LaserJock> there are 17 tux* bugs
[06:35] <LaserJock> I think only 1-3 are SDL
[06:36] <nubae> thin client manager should be taken out
[06:36] <LaserJock> well, we still have to support it
[06:36] <nubae> that one is easy
[06:36] <nubae> no we dont
[06:36] <LaserJock> yep
[06:36] <nubae> why?
[06:36] <LaserJock> Dapper is supported for another year or so
[06:36] <nubae> no one supprts  that crap
[06:36] <nubae> fuck it
[06:37] <LaserJock> heh
[06:37] <nubae> there is a choice
[06:37] <LaserJock> no, not for people on that release
[06:37] <LaserJock> or at least not a supported choice
[06:37] <nubae> forget it.. if u are still running dapper upgrade...
[06:38] <LaserJock> well, we can't exactly force that until it's EOL
[06:38] <nubae> why would that not be the appropriate answer?
[06:38] <LaserJock> that's what "support" is supposed to mean ;-)
[06:38] <nubae> well we are a community, right
[06:38] <nubae> not paid
[06:38] <LaserJock> still
[06:39] <LaserJock> it may not be high priority, but it's our "crap" so let's keep an eye on it
[06:39] <nubae> I disagree.. I do not think we should be supporting dapper
[06:39] <LaserJock> that's what we promise people
[06:40] <stgraber> nubae: that's something we'd have had to discuss before dapper's release
[06:40] <nubae> look, its quite easy to say, upgrade to something less than 2 years old
[06:40] <nubae> no one will question thtat
[06:40] <stgraber> now it's a LTS with 3 years support on the desktop
[06:40] <nubae> right so hardy is out update
[06:40] <LaserJock> nubae: while Dapper is a supported release we can't just ditch it
[06:40] <stgraber> not that simple, I can't ask all my customers to upgrade to Hardy :)
[06:41] <nubae> for edubuntu we can
[06:41] <nubae> we dithched the name
[06:41] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is "supported" until it's EOL'ed
[06:41] <nubae> stgraber: why not?
[06:42] <LaserJock> nubae: we promised people who installed Dapper that they could keep it for 3 years on the desktop
[06:42] <nubae> ok, I'd like to know who still runs dapper
[06:42] <stgraber> nubae: because they chose it for the 3 years desktop support, they don't plan on spending the money for the migration before next year
[06:42] <nubae> can we get a figure on that?
[06:43] <nubae> I have not heard of anyone running dapper coming on irc.. but of course there could be others
[06:43] <LaserJock> we don't really know
[06:44] <LaserJock> we don't get stats on any release
[06:44] <stgraber> mainly because we simply can't get stats ...
[06:44] <LaserJock> but when we promise 3 years support we shouldn't just ditch it
[06:45] <LaserJock> of course at this point it's pretty much best-effort, but it doesn't hurt to keep it on the radar
[06:45] <nubae> can anyone verify that there are stilll people running dapper?
[06:45] <LaserJock> I know of people
[06:46] <LaserJock> I don't run it myself though
[06:46] <nubae> ok, u know people that are running dapper, really?
[06:46] <LaserJock> yep
[06:46] <stgraber> I know some too
[06:46] <nubae> ok, and why have the not upgraded?
[06:47] <LaserJock> "works for me"
[06:47] <nubae> that is a silly excuse
[06:47] <LaserJock> it's not very silly really
[06:47] <stgraber> nubae: because a dapper => hardy upgrade is really not that easy ?
[06:47] <LaserJock> Dapper is less than 3 years old
[06:48] <LaserJock> I know people that run Windows 98
[06:48] <nubae> stgraber: right, agree, but must be done
[06:48] <stgraber> nubae: yeah except that from a budget point of view, that's for next year's
[06:48] <LaserJock> but that's the user's choice, not ours
[06:48] <nubae> 98 is not supported for many years
[06:48] <nubae> good example
[06:48] <LaserJock> sure
[06:48] <LaserJock> but we said Dapper was supported for 3 years
[06:49] <alkisg> 98 is a different example, it works on P1 CPUs with 16 MB RAM, those PCs _cannot_ upgrade
[06:49] <LaserJock> we can't just say "well, actually, now that we look at it we're going back on that"
[06:49] <nubae> fine ok, so how much longer...
[06:49] <LaserJock> Until June of 2009
[06:49] <nubae> really?
[06:50] <nubae> jeez
[06:50] <stgraber> yeah, that's EOL for Dapper on desktop
[06:50] <LaserJock> yes, 3 years from 6.06
[06:50] <nubae> omg
[06:50] <stgraber> 2001 for servers
[06:50] <stgraber> *2011
[06:50] <nubae> heh
[06:51] <nubae> severs are meanignless to ubuntu/edubuntu
[06:51] <LaserJock> oh?
[06:51] <stgraber> not really actually
[06:51] <nubae> at least for edubuntu
[06:51] <stgraber> LTSP was part of Edubuntu back then
[06:51] <nubae> ltsp or edubuntu are NOT server
[06:51] <LaserJock> Schools don't have servers?
[06:51] <stgraber> depends on Canonical's definition of server then :)
[06:52] <nubae> come one
[06:52] <nubae> on
[06:52] <LaserJock> well, some parts of Edubuntu Dapper I do believe count as Server
[06:52] <nubae> neither edubuntu or ubntu ltsp are server
[06:52] <stgraber> did we have edubuntu-content-server back then ?
[06:52] <LaserJock> nope
[06:52] <nubae> they both need desktops
[06:52] <LaserJock> but LTSP had server bits
[06:52] <nubae> so????
[06:52] <LaserJock> dhcp for instance
[06:53] <stgraber> LTSP doesn't need the desktop
[06:53] <nubae> ltsp needs the desktop
[06:53] <stgraber> we have several schools running all the LTSP bits on a box connnecting to an Hardy application server
[06:53] <nubae> stgraber: reallly? how?
[06:53] <stgraber> so that's Dapper's LTSP without the desktop bits
[06:53] <LaserJock> so for all practical purposes Edubuntu is desktop for support
[06:53] <LaserJock> if I remember right
[06:53] <stgraber> nubae: easy, just set LDM_SERVER to a different value
[06:54] <nubae> stgraber: bah, thats semantics
[06:54] <nubae> normally, it needs a desktop
[06:54] <nubae> u know that
[06:54] <LaserJock> right
[06:54] <LaserJock> in any case
[06:55] <LaserJock> we've sort of wandered a bit
[06:55] <nubae> I'm glad so many people got involved
[06:56] <LaserJock> alkisg: do you think you could work up a little proposal on your country metapackage maintainers proposal for the meeting?
[06:56] <alkisg> LaserJock: I think so, should I upload it to a wiki or somewhere?
[06:57] <alkisg> (so that I don't type the whole thing at the meeting)
[06:57] <LaserJock> alkisg: depends on how big it gets :-)
[06:58] <alkisg> OK, we'll see!
[06:58] <LaserJock> alkisg: I don't think it needs a ton of explanation, you might just write up a little something to paste
[06:58] <nubae> alkisg: important is that u be there
[06:58] <alkisg> Sure, I'm interested in this also! :)
[06:58] <LaserJock> nubae: do you have anything you'd like to bring to the meeting?
[06:59] <nubae> like?
[06:59] <LaserJock> will you have the app lists on edubuntu.org by then?
[06:59] <nubae> yes
[06:59] <LaserJock> well, I'd like for people to think about tasks they would like to do for Jaunty
[07:00] <nubae> Ill do my part
[07:00] <LaserJock> we need to quickly define what we're going to do for this release
[07:01] <LaserJock> experience says we've already had some critical time slip away
[07:01] <LaserJock> we don't have the advantage of having specs already defined for most everything
[07:02] <nubae> you mean anything
[07:03] <LaserJock> I think I meant everything, but could be wrong :-)
[07:04] <nubae> welll ill be there
[07:05] <LaserJock> I'll hopefully have this Strategy Doc done
[07:06] <LaserJock> but I'm still struggling a bit with the larger vision of what Edubuntu, Ubuntu in Education, etc. are
[07:07] <LaserJock> the easiest thing, by far, is to just call everything Edubuntu, but I don't know that we can really do that
[07:18] <LaserJock> well, time for me to go to bed
[07:19] <LaserJock> I'll be thinking of things we need to cover in the next meeting, and hopefully you guys will as well :-)
[07:20] <alkisg> Bye LaserJock, see you in the next meeting.
[16:02] <Ahmuck> nubae: i'm in today if u r
[16:05] <Ahmuck> what is a large edubuntu deployment?
[16:06] <Ahmuck> how about ubuntu-ltsp ?
[16:13] <Ahmuck> may i suggest a different market.  the private school sector for edubuntu
[16:17] <Ahmuck> i have a whole list of apps.  some of them are pay, however companies are willing to work with distros to make pay apps included in edu because it's those apps that go home to the kids
[16:19] <Ahmuck> the apps that i have are "educational" in some sense.  learning bridge building, system management, etc. but from a child's perspective
[16:25] <nubae> sounds good, with the inclusion of wine that should be a possibility
[16:26] <nubae> or are u talking about linux apps?
[16:27] <nubae> also, please send me a list of these apps
[16:28] <nubae> in most cases ubuntu-ltsp is a part of the deployment
[16:28] <nubae> its an easy way for people to deploy the edu apps and manage them in the best possible way at the least cost
[16:44] <Ahmuck> yes, linux and windows apps both.
[16:44] <Ahmuck> a lot of the linux apps i run accross are 19.99
[16:44] <Ahmuck> artrage is 25.00 now, but they have a educational discount
[16:45] <Ahmuck> like 5.00/copy
[16:45] <Ahmuck> our school systems might have 350-400 for k-12 total
[16:45] <Ahmuck> so an art room that uses artrage would only need about 10
[16:46] <Ahmuck> which makes it reasonable to assume.  i recently stumbled accross gogh which looks like  reaplacement but it doesn't appear to be maintained
[16:46] <nubae> what does artrage do?
[16:56] <Ahmuck> it's a natural painting program
[16:56] <Ahmuck> http://www.artrage.com/
[16:57] <Ahmuck> http://www2.ambientdesign.com/gallery/showimage.php?s=37f97e57b9b7e8d18c61079b650fc6aa&i=3083&catid=newimages
[16:58] <Ahmuck> for people that are used to working with paint, real paint, it's a natural transition.  one of our local librarians is an artist, and sitting her in front of this requried no learning and she was painting right away
[16:59] <Ahmuck> it also mimics paint texture.
[16:59] <Ahmuck> http://www2.ambientdesign.com/gallery/files/6/8/0/8/blouberg_original.jpg
[16:59] <nubae> ok, so there is no linux replacement?
[17:00] <nubae> I think a good rule of thumb would be if, there is no linux replacement, include it in edubuntu
[17:00] <nubae> if/when wine is in ubuntu main
[17:01] <Ahmuck> it has a free version.  i know they would be thrilled, and linux users would be thrilled.  simply because it would push them into getting a linux version or push someone to create an equal
[17:01] <nubae> when I say edubuntu I dont mean the distro itself, but maybe the website at least...
[17:01] <Ahmuck> yes, wine is a problem
[17:01] <nubae> do u know if it runs under wine?
[17:02] <Ahmuck> yes, that i am aware of.  however i don't see why edubuntu couldn't start moving in it's own direction on "instruction" as a distro
[17:02] <Ahmuck> using ubuntu or ubuntu ltsp as a base and then a full wiki or something on specifics.  i can see this eventually moving into it's own distro
[17:02] <Ahmuck> it runs under wine, i use it
[17:02] <nubae> you're right, but right now it is an official ubuntu derivation... if we do things that are politically incorrect (ubuntu-wise) it may stop being that
[17:03] <Ahmuck> there is also plastic animation paper, which may also have fallen into non-maintence, but is a good free linux animation program, like the old guys used to do it, one cell at a time
[17:03] <nubae> there are only 4 official ubuntu derivations right now, kubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntu christian edition and ubuntu itself
[17:03] <Ahmuck> chicken and the egg.  and fear of breaking the egg and tossing the chicken out
[17:04] <Ahmuck> is mythbuntu any less successful?
[17:04] <nubae> right, but its important to be supported
[17:04] <Ahmuck> is there support now?
[17:04] <nubae> mythbuntu is very specific... its not really a full distro
[17:04] <nubae> yes, edubuntu is officially supported
[17:05] <Ahmuck> so, again, back to SDL
[17:05] <Ahmuck> ubuntu will be fixing edubuntu ltsp SDL problem?
[17:05] <nubae> :-) right they should fix that
[17:05] <nubae> its a matter of how hard people shout
[17:06] <nubae> also, the fact that ltsp is no longer a part of edubuntu is a problem
[17:06] <nubae> so, in a sense, the SDL apps work under edubuntu.. just not under LTSP
[17:08] <Ahmuck-Jr> you'll find i'm a fan of breaking away if it means a return to progress.  ie, mozilla/firefox
[17:09] <nubae> well, only if its really needed
[17:09] <Ahmuck-Jr> though i think sometimes breakaways fall into the same trap as others, eventually they become so bogged down with infrastructure they become less effective at making the correct changes
[17:09] <nubae> I dont believe it is in this case, I think we can fit in our needs within the existing framework
[17:09] <nubae> its a matter of people getting involved
[17:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> real invoation usually happens with a handful of people willing to push ahead
[17:10] <nubae> we have a meeting on Jan 7th... 9 utc...
[17:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> will that happen?  i'm ready, but i'm no programmer for sure
[17:10] <Ahmuck-Jr> arg, the mouse froze up
[17:11] <nubae> there are many many non programmer tasks
[17:11] <nubae> in fact most are non programmer tasks....
[17:11] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15695
[17:12] <nubae> ??
[17:12] <Ahmuck-Jr> heh, like debugging ur script :)
[17:12] <Ahmuck-Jr> that's my /etc/network/interfaces
[17:12] <nubae> ah k... and is your server 192.168.0.254?
[17:12] <Ahmuck-Jr> fat clients have no inet access
[17:12] <Ahmuck-Jr> yes
[17:13] <nubae> wait.... thats the servers /etc/network/interfaces
[17:13] <nubae> I mean the clients
[17:13] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15696
[17:14] <nubae> hmmm, u cant possibly have net acces on u're thin clients... that states that your server is 192.168.0.1
[17:14] <Ahmuck-Jr> i did
[17:14] <nubae> paste me /opt/ltsp/fati386/etc/network/interfaces
[17:15] <nubae> u must make /etc/network/interfaces relate to /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
[17:15] <nubae> same server...
[17:15] <Ahmuck-Jr> ah, found the problem
[17:16] <nubae> :-)
[17:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> http://pastebin.be/15697
[17:16] <nubae> yeah no eth0
[17:16] <Ahmuck-Jr> so your script does not copy the interfaces into /etc/network ?
[17:16] <nubae> set it to auto, re-image client and u'll be fine
[17:17] <nubae> it does normally
[17:17] <nubae> not sure what happened with yours
[17:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> would you like me to test your script in a vm?
[17:17] <nubae> very difficult to make something work on everyone's system
[17:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> re-image the client ... let me dig for my notes
[17:17] <nubae> sure, go for it
[17:17] <Ahmuck-Jr> nubae: it's a stock system
[17:18] <Ahmuck-Jr> it's stock until i'm comfortable this works
[17:18] <nubae> ltsp-update-image
[17:18] <nubae> well ltsp-update-image -a fati386 -b /opt/ltsp
[17:19] <nubae> I use it in large deployments, but I realise I leave out a lot of stuff
[17:20] <Ahmuck-Jr> yes, i've understood that
[17:20] <nubae> I kinda know what I'm doing so dont always know what to explain
[17:20] <Ahmuck-Jr> which is why i've been going through it letter by letter
[17:20] <Ahmuck-Jr> k, i need some help understanding what's going on.  thin and fat clients have two sepeart file system?
[17:21] <nubae> yes totally different, sections... normal ltsp lives under /opt/ltsp/i386
[17:21] <nubae> fatclient lives in /opt/ltsp/fati386
[17:22] <nubae> so whatever is done within one environment in no way affects the other
[17:22] <Ahmuck-Jr> i was under the impression that the fat client only did what was necessary to offload to the client and then everything else was the same
[17:22] <Ahmuck-Jr> so that any change to the "master" (ie server) would affect both clients
[17:22] <Ahmuck-Jr> ie, software install, desktop preferences, etc.
[17:22] <Ahmuck-Jr> there is no way to achieve fat clients outside of this?
[17:22] <nubae> no, think of it as different systems, the only thing that is the same, is the way the clients load one image or another
[17:23] <nubae> not really no... local apps allows one application to run locally
[17:23] <nubae> but its not the same, there are still many problems with that route
[17:24] <nubae> think of it this way... u feed the computers image A or image B, the 2 being totally different
[17:24] <Ahmuck-Jr> so to maintain the same look, feel across the systems one must do to both what one does to one
[17:24] <nubae> right
[17:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> how does this work with kubuntu, openbox, etc
[17:25] <nubae> but thats not too hard
[17:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> a sepearte fat client for all?
[17:25] <nubae> right, its an advantage
[17:25] <nubae> u could have several fatclients, all running different window managers
[17:25] <Ahmuck-Jr> so if student a wants kubuntu and student b want ubuntu, then they have sepearte fat client setups?
[17:25] <nubae> yeah
[17:26] <nubae> u could in theory even run different distros
[17:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> does ubuntu have a proxy server setup for updates, etc one could establish locally?
[17:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> a local mirror would work i suppose
[17:26] <nubae> just chroot /opt/ltsp/fati386
[17:26] <nubae> and then apt-get update
[17:26] <Ahmuck-Jr> at first i was put off by the whole sepearte fat client not intergrated thingy, but it appears fat clients may offer more flexablity
[17:27] <nubae> right they do...
[17:27] <nubae> u can create many customised environments
[17:27] <nubae> its not an easy concept to understand, but nevertheless its there...
[17:27] <Ahmuck> it would be nice to create a local app thingy for the fat client setup.  any chance this can be copied rather than downloaded and installed?
[17:28] <Ahmuck> i understand it now, just not b4
[17:28] <nubae> well in Jaunty, the script will be part of ubuntu
[17:28] <Ahmuck> i'm still trying to think of a way to simplfiy things
[17:28] <nubae> what we need is a gui manager for it
[17:28] <nubae> but I've not got the patience to code python
[17:28] <Ahmuck> ah, yes.  i've been thinking the same thing
[17:28] <Ahmuck> but i know no python
[17:28] <nubae> :-)
[17:29] <nubae> If someone laid out what needed to be done, I'd give it a try
[17:29] <nubae> but without motivation.. I'm happy to use it as it is
[17:29] <nubae> after all, I'm not being paid for it
[17:30] <Ahmuck> heh
[17:31] <Ahmuck> i know a python writer that i might be able to interest
[17:31] <Ahmuck> provided it does not become a full time job for him
[17:34] <nubae> well thats the way with open source
[17:34] <nubae> takes time, but eventually it gets done
[17:36] <Ahmuck-Jr> reboot
[18:24] <Ahmuck-Jr> nubae: no go
[18:41] <nubae> no inet?
[18:42] <nubae> paste me your interfaces