nothingmanhey, nubae!04:41
=== jonathan_ is now known as highvoltage
highvoltagehey bddebian11:51
bddebianHi highvoltage13:48
ianfdlrsCan someone answer a question for me?14:42
LaserJockmmorning all17:19
Ahmuckgooooood morning17:27
nubaehey peeps17:42
LaserJockman, 2009 already17:56
Ahmuckgood morning nubae18:07
Ahmuckgood morn LaserJock18:07
Ahmucknubae: going to try your fat client setup this afternoon on a blank vm18:15
LaserJockshesh, it's really raining here19:12
Ahmuckwhere is here?19:14
LaserJockwe hardly get any precipitation here19:15
LaserJockI totally wasn't prepared for rain and got soaked on the walk from my car to school19:15
Ahmuckur a student?19:27
Ahmuckat a college19:27
LaserJockI've been a student for a long long time :-)19:30
Ahmuckis SDL a problem only on ltsp or is a problem on ubuntu 8.10 as well?19:52
LaserJockAhmuck: I think it must be LTSP-only19:54
nubaeyeah ltsp only19:59
nubaeits due to multiple users19:59
nubaeLaserJock: did u ever manage to set up the ltsp network at your uni?20:00
LaserJocknubae: I haven't yet no, don't know if I will get to20:00
Ahmuckis anybody working on wine?20:08
LaserJockdepends on what you mean by working on wine20:09
LaserJockthere is a guy in Ubuntu that maintains wine20:10
LaserJockbut do you mean specifically for edu stuff?20:10
nubaemaybe he means when is it going into main20:10
LaserJocknubae: so do we know what all apps have this SDL problem? right now bug #269082 just has tux*20:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269082 in tuxpaint "tuxpaint and other tux SDL driven apps slow down and/or freeze thin client terminals (ltsp)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26908220:10
nubaewould u like me to list them some place?20:11
LaserJockwell, is it more than tux* ?20:11
nubaeSDL drives 50% of edu and games linux apps20:11
nubaeso yes20:12
alkisgSuper Mario Chronicles (SDL) also gives 1 frame per ...minute in LTSP20:12
LaserJockhave you talked with LTSP at all about it?20:12
LaserJockI assume some anyway20:12
nubaewell, its not an LTSP issue, its an SDL multi-user issue20:12
nubaeit needs to be fixed on the SDL side20:12
alkisgnubae, multi user? I couldn't work smc even with 1 user...20:13
nubaebut yes, ltsp folks are very aware of the issue... the trick right now is to switch sound off... but that is not a solution20:13
alkisgNot even with plain ssh -Y20:13
LaserJockbut LTSP is sort of the leverage community here20:13
nubaealkisg: right, some apps are more messed up than others20:13
nubaewell, take a look at the bug report.. it couldn't be more complete I dont think20:14
LaserJockso essentially we need a bug for each app we want to get fixed20:14
nubaewell, if that would help :-)20:14
nubaeI've got no deployments at the moment, but when I do, I'll certainly start bugging people about it again...20:15
LaserJockwell, I wonder if the problem is in SDL or how the apps use SDL20:19
LaserJockas in, is there something in our SDL that is causing problems20:19
nubaeit is definitly in SDL, as it happens across apps20:20
LaserJockdo we know if it happens the same in Debian?20:21
nubaein the tux apps, at least, if you run them with sound=off everything works fine20:22
LaserJockI wonder if Skolelinux people have complained20:22
LaserJockright, but you get no sound either20:22
nubaeI wondered about this too, since I seemed to be the first one to file a bug against it... but hey...20:22
nubaeyeah, just pin pointing the problem20:22
nubaesomething to do with ltsp's use of pulse20:23
LaserJockright, so does that then come around to it being a LTSP problem?20:23
nubaeI think it might be valuable to test the officially supported SDL driven apps in edubuntu20:23
nubaeno, because SDL should run fine with pulse20:24
nubaeltsp is not the only project using that20:24
LaserJockright, but I wonder if it's a LTSP+pulse problem and not just pulse20:24
LaserJockI haven't seen any complaints about SDL apps outside of LTSP people (though I haven't looked much)20:25
nubaewell alkisg just mentioned that super mario chronicles won't work even with one user20:25
LaserJockwell, that could just be that game, hard to tell20:26
alkisgI think there's a problem with refreshing in SDL, it happens too often for the network to cope with it20:26
nubaeyeah or graphics card issues20:26
nubaeok, then I could test it with fat client20:26
nubaein theory it should be fine... I'll try running super mario chronicles locally20:27
nubaeinteresting that screem was picked above bluefish editor for a web dev app20:32
nubaeI find screem to be quite buggy, its crashed on me more than once20:32
LaserJockI'd like to replace it20:33
LaserJockat the time I believe screem was the better20:33
nubaeok, suppose a lot of this is legacy20:33
nubaewell I would vote for bluefish20:33
Ahmuckwine multiuser20:34
AhmuckSMC, but you can't SMC to work over a thin client can you?20:35
LaserJockour basic app selection from say 2 years ago or so, though we try to keep the edu-specific ones fairly updated20:35
LaserJock*is from20:35
nubaewhat is SMC Ahmuck?20:35
LaserJockit wasn't until recently that anybody complained about screem, so there wasn't a reason to change20:36
nubaeLaserJock: so u pick one app for each area, or what?20:36
nubaeprobably no one uses it, as its a recommends :-)20:36
Ahmucki've got the test deployment which if i can get fat clients working well, i'd be testing quite a few SDL games20:36
LaserJockyes, we try not duplicate20:36
Ahmuckmy fat clients are 1Ghz, 512mb ram20:36
LaserJock1 app per task, in general20:36
nubaeyeah makes sense, though I really would add abiword20:37
nubaethe main reason being it supports collaboration20:37
nubaeand its fast, small and very stable20:37
LaserJockyeah, that's a hard one for sure20:37
Ahmuckoh, and 128mb vid cards20:37
Ahmuckwhy not use kompozer?20:38
LaserJocka lot of people prefer abiword/gnumeric over OO.o but Openoffice has the best chance of being sort of standard20:38
Ahmuckor quanta20:38
LaserJockI'm not sure what the state of kompozer is20:38
nubaeLaserJock: I think they are different...20:38
LaserJockquanta is KDE220:38
LaserJockKDE3 rather20:38
nubaethink about what u do when u want to edit something quickly... u dont open OOo20:38
AhmuckSMC is super mario chornicals.  it's been my test case for SDL20:38
nubaeu go to notepad, or gedit or abiword20:39
LaserJockonce quanta gets a KDE4 port I'll probably push that into edubuntu-desktop-kde20:39
LaserJockI don't use abiword, but that's just me ;-)20:39
Ahmucki use a text editor, that "highlight"20:39
nubaeI wouldn't compare abiword and OOo... the collaboration thing is a big part too20:39
Ahmuckit's been a long time however, but i'm sure i can find it20:39
LaserJockI open gedit (GUI), vim/emacs (terminal), and OOo (heavy word processing)20:39
Ahmuckabiword has collaboration?20:39
nubaealso, why is blender not in there?20:40
Ahmucki don't like abiword because of it's compatiblity issues20:40
Ahmucknubae: blender locked my machine on fat client20:40
LaserJockI think we dropped blender at some point because of space20:40
nubaeAhmuck: http://www.nubae.com/telepathy-empathy-and-collaboration20:40
nubaehmm interesting, never seen it lock up myself20:40
LaserJockwe have gobby for collaborative editing20:40
nubaethats different20:41
nubaethink about kids working on a stylised document together for some project20:41
nubaethey cant use gobby20:41
LaserJocksure, I realize that20:41
LaserJockbut Abiword has only had collaboration for a short time20:41
nubaegobby is a collaborative hacker/programmer tool20:41
LaserJockso we didn't have that reasoning20:42
nubaeoh, I realise that, just talking about now for Jaunty20:42
Ahmuckoooh, collaboration ... were working on a communty drive happy publication here at our test lab.  would scribus do collaboration?20:42
nubaeand blender can go back in cause there are no more space restrictions I take it20:42
nubaeAhmuck: not yet... but it will be very easy for devs to enable collaboration as its not integrated into gnome itself20:43
Ahmucksooooo.  any chance of getting anki in edubuntu?20:43
Ahmucki don't think there is a ubuntu packager for it currently20:43
LaserJockI think I saw anki20:43
nubaeyeah its in there20:43
Ahmuckthis collaboration happens over the lan or the wan?20:43
nubaeeven across natted firewalls20:44
nubaeon both ends20:44
LaserJockblender might not be easy to get back in20:44
LaserJockabiword should be easy20:44
LaserJockbecause blender has been demoted to Universe20:44
nubaeprobably because its no longer in edubuntu :-)20:45
LaserJockI don't think Ubuntu was considering installing it by default20:45
nubaewell its too niche20:45
nubaeubuntu studio has it though20:45
Ahmuckis there a way to turn ubuntu studio into a ltsp server?20:46
nubaebut I guess ubuntu studio doesnt have the same rules as ed/k/ubuntu20:46
Ahmuckis that option there?20:46
LaserJocknubae: no, Ubuntu Studio is done in Universe20:46
nubaeu can turn any buntu distro that uses teh same repos into ltsp20:46
LaserJockAhmuck: you can do pretty much anything you want on an LTSP spever20:46
nubaeyeah, I think its a better approach, universe gives u more power20:46
nubaebut you already know my opinion on this :p20:47
LaserJockin any case, blender would need to have some dependencies also promoted20:47
Ahmuckubuntu studio would be pre-configured however turning it into a ready made journalism lab for yearbooks, etc.  though i'm not sure it would go well, as apple really has this market tied up20:47
LaserJockbut given that it was already in Main at one point I don't know that it would be all that hard to get it in again20:47
nubaeso whats required?20:48
nubaeLaserJock: what I'm seeing with the apps from hardy to intrepid is name changes in the kde-edu area20:52
nubaethat and thin client manager was still supported20:52
LaserJockthe KDE Edu stuff was KDE 3 -> KDE 420:52
nubaeahhh, ok, makes sense20:53
nubaeso u want me to list them with their old names for the hardy apps list?20:53
LaserJockI want it to be accurate20:54
LaserJocklooks like for blender we also need: freealut,openal-soft, and ftgl20:54
LaserJockso that's 4 packages to get promoted20:55
nubaeyeah, no idea what they are :-)20:55
LaserJockme neither, looks like just various libraries20:56
nubaebtw, we are going to need abiword for sugar anyway20:56
nubaeif thats still the plan20:56
LaserJockdo you need all of abiword?20:56
LaserJockI would have though just abiword-common or something like that would be needed20:57
nubaethere might be some depends not needed20:57
stgraberabiword is alreay in main anyway and we have enough space on the CD ?20:57
nubaeno, we need actual abiword too20:57
nubaeyeah cant be that big...20:58
LaserJockwell, that's not so much the question20:58
LaserJockit's the duplication that might be an issue, though one I think we can work around20:59
nubaewaht was denemo?21:02
LaserJocka musical score editing app21:02
nubaeoh that fell out cause of dependencies IIRC21:03
LaserJockI'm pretty bummed out, it was our only music app21:03
LaserJockand it's pretty buggy21:03
nubaethere was a nice little app for learning guitar riffs... tux guitar or something21:03
Ahmuckname changes?  u mean they are falling away from kname now?21:04
LaserJockbut some KDE apps were dropped and some added going from KDE 3 to KDE 421:05
nubaebut yes, they did fall away from the k name21:05
nubaelike parley, marble21:05
Ahmuckthere are some nice music apps out there.  rosegarden, hydrogen, etc.21:05
nubaerosegarden would be a good one indeed21:05
Ahmuckthough rosegarden can be tough to get running because of jack21:05
nubaevery maintained, 4 star rated21:05
LaserJockit's pretty advanced though, isn't it?21:06
nubaealmost pro21:06
LaserJockthat's why Ubuntu Studio has it21:07
nubaejokosher is pretty neat, it is working on collaborative support, so people can make music across networks together21:07
LaserJockyeah, I've been trying to get jokosher in forever21:07
LaserJockbut jono said it wasn't ready when I was last trying (quite a while ago)21:08
Ahmucki looked at jokosher this morning.  i would agree, if it's not buggy that needs to be there21:09
Ahmuckan app to watch, is kdenlive21:09
LaserJockI find that it's not all that hard to find educational software, but it's *very* difficult to find good educational software21:09
Ahmuckit works a lot like adobe movie production21:09
AhmuckLaserJock: that's been my observation as well21:10
LaserJockit's the same for science software21:10
LaserJockand probably most niche stuff21:10
nubaeyeah like 1000 people start a project, 100 continue them, and 10 perfect them21:10
LaserJockone thing that we can look at is Java apps21:11
LaserJocksince we have a free Java now we can start reviewing Java apps for packaging/inclusion21:11
nubaewe've got a problem there with ltsp though21:12
nubaeor has it changed?21:12
LaserJockhave no idea21:12
LaserJockI've never run LTSP and only know what I hear in here :-)21:12
Ahmucki've got short cables, and am running on a pretty standard "desktop" server.  it works, but i definately see the need for fat clients21:13
Ahmuckand SMC wouldn't even run21:13
Ahmuckanyhow, a gig network, and switch21:13
Ahmuckbetween the server and the client21:13
Ahmuckmany schools will run cable runs over 300ft21:13
nubaeLaserJock: u should really fix that... at least try it out on your home network21:14
LaserJockI suppose :-)21:14
LaserJockI just don't like networking21:14
Ahmuckwhich can be a problem.  so you have infrastructure upgrade, etc.  and many apps are multimedia apps, journalisim, publishing, etc.  it's a whole different mix than grade school apps21:14
Ahmuckit's farily easy.  buy a switch, buy some cables, hook up an old pc to a ltsp server21:15
Ahmuckah, yes, or do it in a vm21:15
LaserJockI did buy a crossover cable and tried it on a ClassmatePC a long time ago21:15
LaserJockin Paris I think21:15
LaserJockbut I just don't have any use for LTSP personally so I have a hard time getting motivated21:16
Ahmuckthat reminds me.  i need to go and make me a crossover cable this afternooon21:16
stgraberhmm, I guess 99% of the code was rewritten since then :)21:16
Ahmuckaren't you the leader for edubuntu?21:16
nubaeu work in a school, how can u not have a use for it?21:16
LaserJockAhmuck: sorta21:16
LaserJockstgraber is the LTSP guy though21:16
LaserJocknubae: I'm a scientist, not an IT admin, etc.21:17
nubaeright, that split is kinda silly, the 2 go together like ham and eggs :-)21:17
LaserJockI think it's a useful split21:17
LaserJockbut I know what you mean21:17
nubaeyeah, I kinda agree21:17
nubaebut in most deployments, I'll bet you they are used together21:18
nubaebut the focus is now better21:18
LaserJockpeople should be free to *not* use LTSP in educational settings or *to* use LTSP in non-educational settings21:18
LaserJockhowever, certainly in schools it makes a lot of sense to use LTSP21:18
nubaewhich is why YOU should be running it :-)21:18
LaserJockwell, I don't know that it makes a whole lot of difference21:19
LaserJockthe one time I tried it, it worked just fine, no issues21:19
Ahmuckthat's ok.  i run it and i'll be happy to give ou all user issues and complaints :)21:19
nubaebut how can u test things like collaboration, central management, italc, etc21:20
LaserJockhaving 1 decent-spec'd client doesn't give you a good idea of how things run21:20
nubaeno right, u need a lab21:20
nubaebut I'm sure u have access to that21:20
nubaeactually u told me u had...21:20
LaserJock... no21:20
LaserJockwell, I kinda help out21:21
nubaeyeah... so blow their socks off, install ltsp21:21
LaserJockbut I don't run it, and hence don't get to decide whether to use LTSP or not21:21
LaserJockthe problem is we have no server21:21
Ahmuckwell, he'd have to do it with a test server21:21
nubaeanything can be a server, it just needs a lot of ram21:21
Ahmucki'm using a amd64 with 2g of ram for a test server21:21
LaserJockright, I think we only have machines with <= 512MB21:22
nubaeso get some extra ram... it costs nothing these days21:22
LaserJockyeah, that is a possibility21:22
LaserJockbut I've got bigger fish to fry21:23
LaserJockthe computer have been there 1 semester and we still can't login21:23
LaserJockonce we have usable machines we can discuss maintainability ;-)21:23
nubaebut ltsp will fix the login problems21:25
LaserJockno, the problem is AD21:26
LaserJockwe can't get Linux to authenticate21:26
nubaeah right, I remember...21:27
nubaewell its not too hard, I've done that before... there's lots of documentation on the net21:27
LaserJockyeah, but it's 2 chemists trying to figure this out between teaching, research, and family21:28
LaserJockit's pretty slow ;-)21:28
nubaeone of whom is the edubuntu lead ;-)21:28
LaserJocksure, but I know next to nothing about hardware/networking21:28
LaserJockI'm learning slowly but surely21:29
nubaefunny, I never get that... In find coding/packaging to be sooo much harder than that stuff21:29
LaserJockwell, it's what you do21:30
LaserJockI've never had to worry about hardware/networking21:30
nubaeyeah guess we are creatures of habit21:30
LaserJockbut I have had to write code and fix packages21:30
LaserJockI think networking in particular is way harder than packaging21:30
nubaeno way :-) I think the opposite21:31
LaserJockI think I'm finally getting IPv621:31
LaserJockbut LDAP, AD, samba, etc. phew, blows me away21:31
nubaeip6 is over dramatised... its still not used21:31
nubaeldap, is simple as can be... the problem is every vendor uses their own standards21:32
LaserJockmostly I think it's because I have no practical experience with these things21:32
nubaeAD is more or less LDAP21:32
LaserJockI've just always run single-user machines21:32
LaserJockand you just plug in an ethernet cable or get wifi and go21:32
nubaesamba is very integrated into ubuntu now... I rarely have problems even across multiple oses (osx, vista, xp)21:33
nubaethey did a really good job there21:34
LaserJockthe problem I think we're having is just that we have a non-standard setup21:34
nubaesounds like it21:34
LaserJockif it wasn't for that I think we'd have AD working in nothing flat21:34
nubaeotherwise it would just pretty much plugin21:34
LaserJockbut it took us a lot of debugging to figure out why we can't get anything from the AD server21:35
LaserJockalthough Windows machines do it so there must be some way21:35
nubaewell AD is not open21:35
nubaereverse engineering at its best for linux users21:36
LaserJockthe problem is in the computer's name21:36
LaserJockbecause these computer are in the chemisty departement they have .chem. on them21:37
LaserJockand the AD server doesn't21:37
nubaeahhh right that would be a problem21:37
nubaeso alias the domain21:38
LaserJockwhat would that mean?21:38
nubaegive the .chem an alias to whatever the AD domain is21:38
LaserJockso if I have a computer, xyz.chem.unr.edu I would turn it into xyz.unr.edu?21:39
mcohenhi all, can anyone help me with a few questions, first-time edubuntu installer21:39
nubaewell for example, in etc hosts u can give the alias something like chemistry.chem and chemistry.unr.edu21:39
LaserJockmcohen: just through out your question and we'll see if we can give an answer21:40
mcohenI have an old Sony Vaio from the closet for the kids21:40
nubaethis is used for other services too that require multiple domain aliases21:40
LaserJock*throw, geeze my english can be bad some days :-)21:40
mcohenI'm trying to figure out the minimum reqs, it has 128MB ram, Pentium III 750 MHz21:40
LaserJockmcohen: what would you like to do with it?21:41
mcohenbut when I try to install ubuntu it throws me to a text shell21:41
mcohenit's just a pottering about/hopmework machine for my 11 yr old21:41
nubaemcohen: what ubuntu iso are u installing?21:41
LaserJockright yeah, Ubuntu needs currently ~ 300+ MB of RAM for the graphical installer21:41
mcohenI figured 8.1021:41
mcohenx86 architecture21:41
mcohenbut I don't need the 'try before you buy' feature, I know ubuntu21:42
LaserJockI would think Xubuntu would be a better choice21:42
mcohenuse kubuntu 8.10 on my work machine21:42
nubaewhen does it throw u to the desktop?21:42
mcohenI never get to a desktop, I tell it to install and it chugs, then pulls up a full screen shell21:43
mcohenxubuntu is a thinner distro?21:43
nubaeyeah, but even gnome should do 128mb21:43
LaserJock"Once installed, Xubuntu can run with 192 MB RAM, but it is strongly recommended to have at least 256 MB RAM. "21:43
mcohenurgh, not much ram21:43
mcohenthe machine has a strong processor for the ram it has though21:43
nubaeyeah u are on the low end of ram, but it should work21:44
LaserJockbut usually those are pretty "conservative" requirements21:44
nubaethere were optimisations for ram in 8.10 iirc21:44
nubaeu might be thrown out for another reason though, like graphics card21:44
LaserJockI would give Xubuntu 8.10 Alternate a try21:45
litlebudamcohen, use the xubuntu alternate install cd21:45
LaserJockand if it's real bad maybe pick up some RAM, should be fairly cheap21:45
nubaeyup try that, or enlightenment21:45
mcohenram for the old Vaio models is unlikely to be cheap unfortunately21:45
nubaeuse them as thin clients??21:46
mcohenactually,t he thing originally had windows ME on it, and I don't have the recovery disks21:46
LaserJockor, right, was thinking desktop machine :(21:46
mcohenidiot me, I installed 2K on it without mirroring, no graphics drivers21:46
mcohenthe default driver only tries 800x600, 16 colors, looked terrible (native LCD is 1024/76821:47
mcohenhoping for better luck with ubuntu21:47
nubaefind out which graphics card u have21:47
mcohenit's very hard to tell, I think it's related to the savage S321:48
nubaeon linux, if u boot up a live cd, u can do lspci to find out21:48
mcohenbut on these 8 yr old super-small laptops, specialised drivers may be needed21:48
mcohenwill try that when I can boot21:48
nubaetry a livecd first actually21:48
mcohenisn't the ubuntu desktop iso also a livecd?21:49
mcohentrying now21:50
mcohendoesn't load21:52
nubaeLaserJock: why do u need your chem terminals to have .chem on the end?21:52
mcohensends me to the BusyBox shell21:52
nubaewhy not use the actual domain?21:52
nubaemcohen: with what message?21:53
litlebudamcohen, try the xubuntu alternate install cd21:53
LaserJocknubae: it's not at the end, it's xyz.chem.unr.edu21:53
LaserJockor is that what you meant?21:53
mcohenmessage was:21:53
mcohen"loading, please wait"21:53
nubaeLaserJock: no, then its not a problem... alias them...21:54
mcohenBusyBox v1.10.2 ubuntu etc21:54
mcohenenter help for a list etc21:54
mcohenthat's it21:54
nubaemcohen: something is breaking then... try xubuntu like the others said...21:54
mcohenrighto, dling now21:54
mcohenwill let you know how it goes when I try21:55
litlebudamcohen, Minimum system requirements21:55
litlebudaYou need 128 MB RAM to run the Live CD or 192 MB RAM to install. The Alternate Install CD only requires you to have 64 MB RAM at install time. To install Xubuntu, you need 1.5 GB of free space on your hard disk. Once installed, Xubuntu can run with 192 MB RAM, but it is strongly recommended to have at least 256 MB RAM.21:55
nubaeLaserJock: for example, this is my entry in /etc/hosts:  homeserve.lan homeserve conference.homeserve schoolserver21:55
nubaethat means homeserve.lan is the same as conference.homeserve.lan21:56
mcohen"Once installed, Xubuntu can run with 192 MB RAM, but it is strongly recommended to have at least 256 MB RAM" may be a problem21:57
nubaeyah minimum went up, mcohen how many of these laptops u got? more than one?21:58
litlebudamcohen, try it first you may be surprised21:58
mcohenjust the one, found in a closet21:59
mcohenwill try and see21:59
Ahmucki just installed wine-doors.  would this work for wine?22:06
Ahmucknubae: do u know if there is a way to run from the machine and use ltsp for login and /home only?22:10
Ahmuckis this channel edu safe?22:58
Ahmuckie CIPA safe ?22:58

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