[04:41] hey, nubae! === jonathan_ is now known as highvoltage [11:51] hey bddebian [13:48] Hi highvoltage [14:42] Can someone answer a question for me? [17:19] mmorning all [17:27] gooooood morning [17:42] hey peeps [17:56] man, 2009 already [18:07] good morning nubae [18:07] good morn LaserJock [18:15] nubae: going to try your fat client setup this afternoon on a blank vm [19:12] shesh, it's really raining here [19:14] where is here? [19:15] Nevada [19:15] we hardly get any precipitation here [19:15] I totally wasn't prepared for rain and got soaked on the walk from my car to school [19:27] ur a student? [19:27] at a college [19:29] yep [19:30] I've been a student for a long long time :-) [19:52] is SDL a problem only on ltsp or is a problem on ubuntu 8.10 as well? [19:54] Ahmuck: I think it must be LTSP-only [19:59] yeah ltsp only [19:59] its due to multiple users [20:00] LaserJock: did u ever manage to set up the ltsp network at your uni? [20:00] nubae: I haven't yet no, don't know if I will get to [20:08] is anybody working on wine? [20:09] depends on what you mean by working on wine [20:10] there is a guy in Ubuntu that maintains wine [20:10] but do you mean specifically for edu stuff? [20:10] maybe he means when is it going into main [20:10] nubae: so do we know what all apps have this SDL problem? right now bug #269082 just has tux* [20:10] Launchpad bug 269082 in tuxpaint "tuxpaint and other tux SDL driven apps slow down and/or freeze thin client terminals (ltsp)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/269082 [20:11] would u like me to list them some place? [20:11] well, is it more than tux* ? [20:11] SDL drives 50% of edu and games linux apps [20:12] so yes [20:12] Super Mario Chronicles (SDL) also gives 1 frame per ...minute in LTSP [20:12] have you talked with LTSP at all about it? [20:12] I assume some anyway [20:12] well, its not an LTSP issue, its an SDL multi-user issue [20:12] it needs to be fixed on the SDL side [20:12] right [20:13] nubae, multi user? I couldn't work smc even with 1 user... [20:13] but yes, ltsp folks are very aware of the issue... the trick right now is to switch sound off... but that is not a solution [20:13] Not even with plain ssh -Y [20:13] but LTSP is sort of the leverage community here [20:13] alkisg: right, some apps are more messed up than others [20:14] well, take a look at the bug report.. it couldn't be more complete I dont think [20:14] so essentially we need a bug for each app we want to get fixed [20:14] well, if that would help :-) [20:15] I've got no deployments at the moment, but when I do, I'll certainly start bugging people about it again... [20:19] well, I wonder if the problem is in SDL or how the apps use SDL [20:19] as in, is there something in our SDL that is causing problems [20:20] it is definitly in SDL, as it happens across apps [20:21] do we know if it happens the same in Debian? [20:22] in the tux apps, at least, if you run them with sound=off everything works fine [20:22] I wonder if Skolelinux people have complained [20:22] right, but you get no sound either [20:22] I wondered about this too, since I seemed to be the first one to file a bug against it... but hey... [20:22] yeah, just pin pointing the problem [20:23] something to do with ltsp's use of pulse [20:23] right, so does that then come around to it being a LTSP problem? [20:23] I think it might be valuable to test the officially supported SDL driven apps in edubuntu [20:24] no, because SDL should run fine with pulse [20:24] ltsp is not the only project using that [20:24] right, but I wonder if it's a LTSP+pulse problem and not just pulse [20:25] I haven't seen any complaints about SDL apps outside of LTSP people (though I haven't looked much) [20:25] well alkisg just mentioned that super mario chronicles won't work even with one user [20:26] well, that could just be that game, hard to tell [20:26] I think there's a problem with refreshing in SDL, it happens too often for the network to cope with it [20:26] yeah or graphics card issues [20:26] ok, then I could test it with fat client [20:27] in theory it should be fine... I'll try running super mario chronicles locally [20:32] interesting that screem was picked above bluefish editor for a web dev app [20:32] I find screem to be quite buggy, its crashed on me more than once [20:33] yes [20:33] I'd like to replace it [20:33] at the time I believe screem was the better [20:33] ok, suppose a lot of this is legacy [20:33] well I would vote for bluefish [20:34] wine multiuser [20:35] smc [20:35] SMC, but you can't SMC to work over a thin client can you? [20:35] our basic app selection from say 2 years ago or so, though we try to keep the edu-specific ones fairly updated [20:35] *is from [20:35] what is SMC Ahmuck? [20:36] it wasn't until recently that anybody complained about screem, so there wasn't a reason to change [20:36] LaserJock: so u pick one app for each area, or what? [20:36] probably no one uses it, as its a recommends :-) [20:36] i've got the test deployment which if i can get fat clients working well, i'd be testing quite a few SDL games [20:36] yes, we try not duplicate [20:36] my fat clients are 1Ghz, 512mb ram [20:36] 1 app per task, in general [20:37] yeah makes sense, though I really would add abiword [20:37] the main reason being it supports collaboration [20:37] and its fast, small and very stable [20:37] yeah, that's a hard one for sure [20:37] oh, and 128mb vid cards [20:38] why not use kompozer? [20:38] a lot of people prefer abiword/gnumeric over OO.o but Openoffice has the best chance of being sort of standard [20:38] or quanta [20:38] I'm not sure what the state of kompozer is [20:38] LaserJock: I think they are different... [20:38] quanta is KDE2 [20:38] KDE3 rather [20:38] think about what u do when u want to edit something quickly... u dont open OOo [20:38] SMC is super mario chornicals. it's been my test case for SDL [20:39] u go to notepad, or gedit or abiword [20:39] once quanta gets a KDE4 port I'll probably push that into edubuntu-desktop-kde [20:39] I don't use abiword, but that's just me ;-) [20:39] i use a text editor, that "highlight" [20:39] I wouldn't compare abiword and OOo... the collaboration thing is a big part too [20:39] it's been a long time however, but i'm sure i can find it [20:39] I open gedit (GUI), vim/emacs (terminal), and OOo (heavy word processing) [20:39] abiword has collaboration? [20:39] yep [20:40] also, why is blender not in there? [20:40] i don't like abiword because of it's compatiblity issues [20:40] nubae: blender locked my machine on fat client [20:40] I think we dropped blender at some point because of space [20:40] Ahmuck: http://www.nubae.com/telepathy-empathy-and-collaboration [20:40] hmm interesting, never seen it lock up myself [20:40] we have gobby for collaborative editing [20:41] thats different [20:41] think about kids working on a stylised document together for some project [20:41] they cant use gobby [20:41] sure, I realize that [20:41] but Abiword has only had collaboration for a short time [20:41] gobby is a collaborative hacker/programmer tool [20:42] so we didn't have that reasoning [20:42] oh, I realise that, just talking about now for Jaunty [20:42] oooh, collaboration ... were working on a communty drive happy publication here at our test lab. would scribus do collaboration? [20:42] and blender can go back in cause there are no more space restrictions I take it [20:43] Ahmuck: not yet... but it will be very easy for devs to enable collaboration as its not integrated into gnome itself [20:43] sooooo. any chance of getting anki in edubuntu? [20:43] s/not/now [20:43] i don't think there is a ubuntu packager for it currently [20:43] I think I saw anki [20:43] yeah its in there [20:43] this collaboration happens over the lan or the wan? [20:44] anything [20:44] even across natted firewalls [20:44] on both ends [20:44] blender might not be easy to get back in [20:44] why? [20:44] abiword should be easy [20:44] because blender has been demoted to Universe [20:45] probably because its no longer in edubuntu :-) [20:45] yeah [20:45] I don't think Ubuntu was considering installing it by default [20:45] well its too niche [20:45] ubuntu studio has it though [20:46] is there a way to turn ubuntu studio into a ltsp server? [20:46] but I guess ubuntu studio doesnt have the same rules as ed/k/ubuntu [20:46] is that option there? [20:46] nubae: no, Ubuntu Studio is done in Universe [20:46] u can turn any buntu distro that uses teh same repos into ltsp [20:46] Ahmuck: you can do pretty much anything you want on an LTSP spever [20:46] *server [20:46] yeah, I think its a better approach, universe gives u more power [20:47] but you already know my opinion on this :p [20:47] in any case, blender would need to have some dependencies also promoted [20:47] ubuntu studio would be pre-configured however turning it into a ready made journalism lab for yearbooks, etc. though i'm not sure it would go well, as apple really has this market tied up [20:47] but given that it was already in Main at one point I don't know that it would be all that hard to get it in again [20:48] so whats required? [20:52] LaserJock: what I'm seeing with the apps from hardy to intrepid is name changes in the kde-edu area [20:52] that and thin client manager was still supported [20:52] yep [20:52] the KDE Edu stuff was KDE 3 -> KDE 4 [20:53] ahhh, ok, makes sense [20:53] so u want me to list them with their old names for the hardy apps list? [20:54] yes [20:54] I want it to be accurate [20:54] ok [20:54] looks like for blender we also need: freealut,openal-soft, and ftgl [20:55] so that's 4 packages to get promoted [20:55] yeah, no idea what they are :-) [20:56] me neither, looks like just various libraries [20:56] btw, we are going to need abiword for sugar anyway [20:56] if thats still the plan [20:56] well [20:56] do you need all of abiword? [20:56] yes [20:57] really? [20:57] I would have though just abiword-common or something like that would be needed [20:57] there might be some depends not needed [20:57] abiword is alreay in main anyway and we have enough space on the CD ? [20:57] no, we need actual abiword too [20:58] yeah cant be that big... [20:58] well, that's not so much the question [20:59] it's the duplication that might be an issue, though one I think we can work around [21:02] waht was denemo? [21:02] a musical score editing app [21:03] oh that fell out cause of dependencies IIRC [21:03] I'm pretty bummed out, it was our only music app [21:03] yeah [21:03] and it's pretty buggy [21:03] there was a nice little app for learning guitar riffs... tux guitar or something [21:04] name changes? u mean they are falling away from kname now? [21:04] no [21:05] but some KDE apps were dropped and some added going from KDE 3 to KDE 4 [21:05] ah [21:05] but yes, they did fall away from the k name [21:05] like parley, marble [21:05] there are some nice music apps out there. rosegarden, hydrogen, etc. [21:05] rosegarden would be a good one indeed [21:05] though rosegarden can be tough to get running because of jack [21:05] very maintained, 4 star rated [21:06] it's pretty advanced though, isn't it? [21:06] yeah [21:06] almost pro [21:07] that's why Ubuntu Studio has it [21:07] jokosher is pretty neat, it is working on collaborative support, so people can make music across networks together [21:07] yep [21:07] yeah, I've been trying to get jokosher in forever [21:08] but jono said it wasn't ready when I was last trying (quite a while ago) [21:09] i looked at jokosher this morning. i would agree, if it's not buggy that needs to be there [21:09] an app to watch, is kdenlive [21:09] I find that it's not all that hard to find educational software, but it's *very* difficult to find good educational software [21:09] it works a lot like adobe movie production [21:10] LaserJock: that's been my observation as well [21:10] it's the same for science software [21:10] and probably most niche stuff [21:10] yeah like 1000 people start a project, 100 continue them, and 10 perfect them [21:11] one thing that we can look at is Java apps [21:11] since we have a free Java now we can start reviewing Java apps for packaging/inclusion [21:12] we've got a problem there with ltsp though [21:12] or has it changed? [21:12] have no idea [21:12] I've never run LTSP and only know what I hear in here :-) [21:12] o.O [21:13] i've got short cables, and am running on a pretty standard "desktop" server. it works, but i definately see the need for fat clients [21:13] and SMC wouldn't even run [21:13] anyhow, a gig network, and switch [21:13] between the server and the client [21:13] many schools will run cable runs over 300ft [21:14] LaserJock: u should really fix that... at least try it out on your home network [21:14] I suppose :-) [21:14] I just don't like networking [21:14] which can be a problem. so you have infrastructure upgrade, etc. and many apps are multimedia apps, journalisim, publishing, etc. it's a whole different mix than grade school apps [21:15] it's farily easy. buy a switch, buy some cables, hook up an old pc to a ltsp server [21:15] ah, yes, or do it in a vm [21:15] I did buy a crossover cable and tried it on a ClassmatePC a long time ago [21:15] in Paris I think [21:16] but I just don't have any use for LTSP personally so I have a hard time getting motivated [21:16] that reminds me. i need to go and make me a crossover cable this afternooon [21:16] hmm, I guess 99% of the code was rewritten since then :) [21:16] aren't you the leader for edubuntu? [21:16] u work in a school, how can u not have a use for it? [21:16] Ahmuck: sorta [21:16] stgraber is the LTSP guy though [21:17] nubae: I'm a scientist, not an IT admin, etc. [21:17] right, that split is kinda silly, the 2 go together like ham and eggs :-) [21:17] I think it's a useful split [21:17] but I know what you mean [21:17] yeah, I kinda agree [21:18] but in most deployments, I'll bet you they are used together [21:18] but the focus is now better [21:18] people should be free to *not* use LTSP in educational settings or *to* use LTSP in non-educational settings [21:18] righto [21:18] however, certainly in schools it makes a lot of sense to use LTSP [21:18] which is why YOU should be running it :-) [21:19] well, I don't know that it makes a whole lot of difference [21:19] the one time I tried it, it worked just fine, no issues [21:19] that's ok. i run it and i'll be happy to give ou all user issues and complaints :) [21:20] but how can u test things like collaboration, central management, italc, etc [21:20] having 1 decent-spec'd client doesn't give you a good idea of how things run [21:20] vm's [21:20] no right, u need a lab [21:20] but I'm sure u have access to that [21:20] actually u told me u had... [21:20] ... no [21:21] well, I kinda help out [21:21] yeah... so blow their socks off, install ltsp [21:21] but I don't run it, and hence don't get to decide whether to use LTSP or not [21:21] the problem is we have no server [21:21] well, he'd have to do it with a test server [21:21] anything can be a server, it just needs a lot of ram [21:21] i'm using a amd64 with 2g of ram for a test server [21:22] right, I think we only have machines with <= 512MB [21:22] so get some extra ram... it costs nothing these days [21:22] yeah, that is a possibility [21:23] but I've got bigger fish to fry [21:23] the computer have been there 1 semester and we still can't login [21:23] once we have usable machines we can discuss maintainability ;-) [21:25] but ltsp will fix the login problems [21:26] no, the problem is AD [21:26] we can't get Linux to authenticate [21:27] ah right, I remember... [21:27] well its not too hard, I've done that before... there's lots of documentation on the net [21:28] yeah, but it's 2 chemists trying to figure this out between teaching, research, and family [21:28] it's pretty slow ;-) [21:28] one of whom is the edubuntu lead ;-) [21:28] sure, but I know next to nothing about hardware/networking [21:29] I'm learning slowly but surely [21:29] funny, I never get that... In find coding/packaging to be sooo much harder than that stuff [21:30] well, it's what you do [21:30] I've never had to worry about hardware/networking [21:30] yeah guess we are creatures of habit [21:30] but I have had to write code and fix packages [21:30] I think networking in particular is way harder than packaging [21:31] no way :-) I think the opposite [21:31] I think I'm finally getting IPv6 [21:31] but LDAP, AD, samba, etc. phew, blows me away [21:31] ip6 is over dramatised... its still not used [21:32] ldap, is simple as can be... the problem is every vendor uses their own standards [21:32] mostly I think it's because I have no practical experience with these things [21:32] AD is more or less LDAP [21:32] I've just always run single-user machines [21:32] and you just plug in an ethernet cable or get wifi and go [21:33] samba is very integrated into ubuntu now... I rarely have problems even across multiple oses (osx, vista, xp) [21:34] they did a really good job there [21:34] the problem I think we're having is just that we have a non-standard setup [21:34] sounds like it [21:34] if it wasn't for that I think we'd have AD working in nothing flat [21:34] otherwise it would just pretty much plugin [21:35] but it took us a lot of debugging to figure out why we can't get anything from the AD server [21:35] although Windows machines do it so there must be some way [21:35] well AD is not open [21:36] reverse engineering at its best for linux users [21:36] the problem is in the computer's name [21:37] because these computer are in the chemisty departement they have .chem. on them [21:37] and the AD server doesn't [21:37] ahhh right that would be a problem [21:38] so alias the domain [21:38] what would that mean? [21:38] give the .chem an alias to whatever the AD domain is [21:39] so if I have a computer, xyz.chem.unr.edu I would turn it into xyz.unr.edu? [21:39] hi all, can anyone help me with a few questions, first-time edubuntu installer [21:39] well for example, in etc hosts u can give the alias something like chemistry.chem and chemistry.unr.edu [21:40] mcohen: just through out your question and we'll see if we can give an answer [21:40] thanks [21:40] I have an old Sony Vaio from the closet for the kids [21:40] this is used for other services too that require multiple domain aliases [21:40] *throw, geeze my english can be bad some days :-) [21:40] I'm trying to figure out the minimum reqs, it has 128MB ram, Pentium III 750 MHz [21:41] mcohen: what would you like to do with it? [21:41] but when I try to install ubuntu it throws me to a text shell [21:41] it's just a pottering about/hopmework machine for my 11 yr old [21:41] mcohen: what ubuntu iso are u installing? [21:41] right yeah, Ubuntu needs currently ~ 300+ MB of RAM for the graphical installer [21:41] I figured 8.10 [21:41] -desktop? [21:41] x86 architecture [21:41] yes [21:42] but I don't need the 'try before you buy' feature, I know ubuntu [21:42] I would think Xubuntu would be a better choice [21:42] use kubuntu 8.10 on my work machine [21:42] when does it throw u to the desktop? [21:43] I never get to a desktop, I tell it to install and it chugs, then pulls up a full screen shell [21:43] xubuntu is a thinner distro? [21:43] yeah, but even gnome should do 128mb [21:43] "Once installed, Xubuntu can run with 192 MB RAM, but it is strongly recommended to have at least 256 MB RAM. " [21:43] urgh, not much ram [21:43] the machine has a strong processor for the ram it has though [21:44] yeah u are on the low end of ram, but it should work [21:44] but usually those are pretty "conservative" requirements [21:44] there were optimisations for ram in 8.10 iirc [21:44] u might be thrown out for another reason though, like graphics card [21:45] I would give Xubuntu 8.10 Alternate a try [21:45] mcohen, use the xubuntu alternate install cd [21:45] and if it's real bad maybe pick up some RAM, should be fairly cheap [21:45] ok [21:45] yup try that, or enlightenment [21:45] ram for the old Vaio models is unlikely to be cheap unfortunately [21:46] use them as thin clients?? [21:46] actually,t he thing originally had windows ME on it, and I don't have the recovery disks [21:46] or, right, was thinking desktop machine :( [21:46] idiot me, I installed 2K on it without mirroring, no graphics drivers [21:47] the default driver only tries 800x600, 16 colors, looked terrible (native LCD is 1024/768 [21:47] hoping for better luck with ubuntu [21:47] find out which graphics card u have [21:48] it's very hard to tell, I think it's related to the savage S3 [21:48] on linux, if u boot up a live cd, u can do lspci to find out [21:48] but on these 8 yr old super-small laptops, specialised drivers may be needed [21:48] will try that when I can boot [21:48] cheers [21:48] try a livecd first actually [21:49] isn't the ubuntu desktop iso also a livecd? [21:49] yes [21:50] trying now [21:52] doesn't load [21:52] LaserJock: why do u need your chem terminals to have .chem on the end? [21:52] sends me to the BusyBox shell [21:52] why not use the actual domain? [21:53] mcohen: with what message? [21:53] mcohen, try the xubuntu alternate install cd [21:53] nubae: it's not at the end, it's xyz.chem.unr.edu [21:53] or is that what you meant? [21:53] message was: [21:53] "loading, please wait" [21:54] LaserJock: no, then its not a problem... alias them... [21:54] BusyBox v1.10.2 ubuntu etc [21:54] enter help for a list etc [21:54] that's it [21:54] mcohen: something is breaking then... try xubuntu like the others said... [21:54] righto, dling now [21:55] will let you know how it goes when I try [21:55] mcohen, Minimum system requirements [21:55]