[01:08] <nothingman> hi, all
[01:13] <nothingman> someone have a problem already so I can watch the discussion!
[01:14] <nothingman> anyone doing anything new and interesting with Edubuntu?
[01:18] <nothingman> hi, all
[13:47] <Ahmuck> good morning
[14:45] <sbalneav> Morning all
[15:00] <highvoltage> morning sbalneav
[15:01] <RichEd> hi guys
[17:11] <LaserJock> RichEd: hi
[17:12] <nubae> greets LaserJock, RichEd
[17:12] <LaserJock> nubae: kpercentage has been removed from KDE Edu, that's why it's not in Jaunty
[17:12] <nubae> Oh? I didn't ask about kpercentage though
[17:12] <nubae> :-)
[17:12] <nubae> I asked about klettres
[17:13] <nubae> but I shall keep that in mind when making the jaunty app list
[17:13] <nubae> did u get my message yesterday?
[17:13] <LaserJock> bah, i was thinking you said kpercentage in your email but you said kgeography, my bad
[17:14] <nubae> oh and kgeography too yeah
[17:14] <LaserJock> nubae: not sure, what was your message?
[17:14] <nubae> please can u review: http://www.edubuntu.org/applications
[17:15] <nubae> very short intro, and probably slightly incorrect
[17:15] <nubae> but links to both intrepid and hardy are now there
[17:16] <LaserJock> yeah, it's a great start
[17:16] <LaserJock> we can probably tweak some of the wording
[17:16] <nubae> yeah thought so
[17:16] <nubae> somehow we need to make it attractive to app creators and users to get involved
[17:16] <LaserJock> I'd like to work a bit on the application list format
[17:16] <nubae> ok
[17:17] <LaserJock> I'd like to try to shorten things up a bit
[17:17] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if/how we can do it
[17:17] <nubae> I sent a couple mails to the list too, concerning other apps and screem replacement, u probably saw
[17:17] <nubae> well, what are your ideas?
[17:17] <LaserJock>  the descriptions are like double spaced
[17:18] <LaserJock> and I think it wouldn't hurt to bring  out "category" "homepage" and "version" more
[17:18] <LaserJock> like maybe bold them or something
[17:18] <nubae> yeah true
[17:19] <LaserJock> another option
[17:19] <nubae> maybe category should be under version
[17:19] <LaserJock> we could group by category
[17:19] <nubae> ok, right now its alphabetical
[17:20] <nubae> I dont think there are enough categories to warrant that right now
[17:20] <LaserJock> well
[17:20] <nubae> many categories have only one app
[17:20] <LaserJock> but perhaps we should group by primary, secondary, etc.
[17:20] <LaserJock> as really, the category is somewhat redundant
[17:20] <LaserJock> because you have the short description and the long description
[17:21] <nubae> yeah or have a recommended age group
[17:21] <LaserJock> it should be pretty clear quickly what the app is for, maybe we don't need that "category" thing
[17:21] <LaserJock> since there's only one or a very few in each
[17:22] <nubae> hmm, right
[17:22] <LaserJock> RichEd: do you have age ranges for pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary ? we're finding in some places it makes more sense to use age ranges
[17:22] <nubae> we need to try thinking like teachers here
[17:22] <nubae> how would u search for something u need
[17:22] <nubae> age-range is more international for sure
[17:22] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure I'm wanting to search so much on this page
[17:23] <nubae> ok, browse then :-)
[17:23] <LaserJock> I'm wanting an overview of what is offered
[17:23] <LaserJock> so I guess if I was a primary school teacher i'm wanting to see primary school apps
[17:23] <nubae> or apps for 4-9 years
[17:24] <nubae> ok, so we list the apps from lowest age to highest?
[17:24] <LaserJock> that might not be a bad way to go
[17:25] <nubae> and then we can make anchors for primary (age group 4-9), secondary, etc
[17:25] <nubae> on the top of the page
[17:26] <LaserJock> yeah
[17:27] <LaserJock> that seems the most logical to me
[17:28] <nubae> I think we should expand the intro page a bit too
[17:28] <LaserJock> perhaps
[17:28] <nubae> with a better explanation of how/why the apps have been chosen
[17:28] <LaserJock> my general philosophy is to keep pages simple with little prose
[17:28] <LaserJock> mostly bullet points and links
[17:28] <nubae> yeah agreed...
[17:29] <nubae> the downloads page needs -serious- simplifying
[17:29] <LaserJock> we can also say how people can recommend apps
[17:29] <nubae> right
[17:29] <nubae> we can do like wine does... people recommend apps, and once a certain number have recommended, they include it
[17:30] <nubae> so it goes by popularity
[17:30] <LaserJock> well ...
[17:30] <nubae> they also get people to donate that way, lol, but guess thats not possible with edubuntu
[17:30] <LaserJock> we can't really go on popularity
[17:30] <LaserJock> though it's a factor
[17:31] <nubae> well, lets say a teacher really wants a particular app in edubuntu, and with that increased support...
[17:31] <LaserJock> some things are very popular but very difficult or sometimes impossible
[17:31] <nubae> they can vote the app in, making a donation?
[17:31] <nubae> I can see that being unpopular I guess
[17:32] <LaserJock> well, we're not really set up for donations
[17:32] <nubae> right, but thats not hard to do, the political part might be though
[17:32] <nubae> donations can be setup via a paypal account quite easily
[17:33] <LaserJock> well, but I mean I don't know where the donations would go, etc.
[17:33] <nubae> to the people maintaining/supporting/coding the app in question
[17:34] <LaserJock> well, that's a tricky thing :-)
[17:34] <nubae> its to push the inclusion of it in main
[17:34] <nubae> or in a general edubuntu pot
[17:34] <nubae> that then gets socially distributed?
[17:35] <LaserJock> I don't know
[17:35] <LaserJock> in general Ubuntu has really stayed away from involving money
[17:35] <nubae> I know... but edubuntu has no paid canonical employees anymore
[17:35] <nubae> they get support from their support contracts
[17:36] <nubae> so they do involve money indirectly
[17:36] <nubae> well, I dont care so much, its just an idea, and it might get more people involved
[17:36] <LaserJock> right
[17:36] <LaserJock> I know MOTU have struggled a bit with this
[17:36] <LaserJock> it's hard when we're such a loose organization
[17:37] <nubae> yeah, edubuntu would be easier I suppose though
[17:37] <nubae> maybe we should bring it up at the meeting tomorrow?
[17:37] <LaserJock> perhaps, though it would be unclear to me still who the money would go to
[17:38] <LaserJock> you can certainly add it to the agenda if you like
[17:38] <nubae> me too, but it can certainly go towards something
[17:38] <nubae> we dont need to decide right away
[17:39] <LaserJock> it would be nice if the Ubuntu Foundation was available for such things
[17:39] <nubae> ok, I'll add to agenda
[17:39] <nubae> how about adding new apps to be included for jaunty too?
[17:40] <LaserJock> yes, we should discuss which ones to target
[17:41] <nubae> ok, added both items to agenda
[17:42] <nubae> oh... quick question about squeak, I noticed its in multiverse
[17:42] <nubae> I thought it was in universe
[17:42] <LaserJock> no, multiverse because it's not free
[17:42] <nubae> it is now
[17:43] <nubae> its totally free now
[17:43] <LaserJock> supposedly
[17:43] <LaserJock> but the packages we currently have are not
[17:43] <nubae> no really, I've checked the licensing :-)
[17:43] <nubae> oh, ok
[17:43] <LaserJock> no really, I've checked the code ;-)
[17:43] <nubae> this is the vm thing
[17:43] <LaserJock> the squeak vm is not what I'd call great licensing
[17:43] <nubae> yeah i know
[17:44] <nubae> but they are able to include the source along with that
[17:44] <LaserJock> but I'm done getting worked up about it ;-)
[17:44] <LaserJock> well, I don't so much mind that issue actually
[17:44] <nubae> yeah, they are not gonna change their ways.. its just a very important package is all
[17:44] <LaserJock> but they were call ing things GPL that weren't
[17:44] <LaserJock> they were including non-free patent-laden code and calling it GPL
[17:45] <nubae> yeah i remember
[17:45] <nubae> but they rewrote all those parts supposedly
[17:45] <LaserJock> and when I asked the author about it he sent me a snotty email ;-)
[17:45] <nubae> hehe, ok, but it shouldnt get personal
[17:45] <LaserJock> however, it sounds as if Debian's got things worked out pretty well
[17:45] <LaserJock> so we can take their package hopefully
[17:46] <nubae> cool
[17:46] <nubae> ok, about this MIR thing... should I go through the process for a particular app?
[17:46] <LaserJock> well, we need to figure out what apps we'd like to get
[17:47] <LaserJock> and then yeah, each one will need to go through the MIR
[17:47] <nubae> yep, I sent an email to the list about that
[17:47] <nubae> maybe add your 2 cents...
[17:47] <LaserJock>  I will
[17:47] <nubae> revive the list a bit :-)
[17:47] <LaserJock> the replacements are a bit more tricky
[17:48] <LaserJock> we have the issue of inertia
[17:48] <nubae> hmm, I thought that would be easier... like u can give more reasoning for it
[17:48] <nubae> say package x is buggy so we replace with better maintained package y
[17:48] <LaserJock> well, it's easier to say "look, we don't have any app that does ..."
[17:48] <nubae> ok, from that perspective I get too
[17:49] <LaserJock> but when people have already been using the app, etc.
[17:49] <LaserJock> and we're going to replace it
[17:49] <LaserJock> we need a bit more thought, IMO
[17:49] <LaserJock> for instance, you said kompozer was pretty buggy
[17:49] <nubae> yeah, I've found it to crash
[17:50] <nubae> but there is no replacement for it, its the only real WYSIWYG web editor
[17:50] <nubae> there are lots of non-wysiwyg editors
[17:50] <LaserJock> is it worse than screem? is it buggeir in different ways that are better/worse? is upstream responsive? etc.
[17:50] <nubae> screem is not WYSIWYG
[17:50] <nubae> and its as buggy as kompozer
[17:52] <LaserJock> so bluefish is actually the proper replacement for screem?
[17:52] <nubae> yeah
[17:52] <LaserJock> kompozer is a new category of app
[17:52] <nubae> although looking at launchpad, there are no open bugs with screem, but thats for sure cause no one uses it
[17:53] <LaserJock> no  open bugs?!
[17:53] <nubae> nope, well last open bug is in there from gutsy!
[17:53] <LaserJock> screem has 21 open bugs
[17:54] <nubae> oh wait
[17:54] <nubae> looking in wrong place
[17:54] <nubae> heh
[17:54] <nubae> I looked in the package itself
[17:54] <nubae> so kompozer has far less
[17:55] <nubae> no sigsevs
[17:55] <LaserJock> kompozer has 28 open bugs
[17:55] <nubae> hmmm, where u seeing that?
[17:55] <nubae> I only found 12
[17:56] <LaserJock> with a rough count of 17 sigsevs
[17:56] <LaserJock> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kompozer
[17:56] <jussi01> bug 263441
[17:56] <nubae> hmm I see 10 there, not 28
[17:57] <alkisg> Amaya is another one
[17:57] <nubae> yeah amaya is unusable... u tried it ever?
[17:57] <alkisg> But I've used all of them, and all crashed so frequently that I had to switch to fckeditor
[17:57] <nubae> bluefish is allright
[17:57] <jussi01> how about quanta+?
[17:58] <nubae> but yeah you're right, they all suck balls... I use wine+dreamweaver
[17:58] <LaserJock> nubae: oh, you know what it is, the sigsevs are private bugs
[17:58] <LaserJock> nubae: so I can see them and you can't :(
[17:58] <nubae> ah :-)
[17:59] <LaserJock> that's kinda dumb
[17:59] <nubae> I was getting kinda confused... u're definitely seeing stuff I am not
[17:59] <LaserJock> a person can get a really bad perception of a package that way
[17:59] <nubae> why are sigsevs private?
[17:59] <LaserJock> because they contain crash data
[17:59] <LaserJock> which *may* contain personal info
[17:59] <nubae> jussi01: quanta seems ok too
[18:00] <LaserJock> once we verify that there isn't any we un-private them
[18:00] <nubae> LaserJock: aaahhh :-)
[18:00] <nubae> and that responsibility falls to u too?
[18:00] <nubae> surely that is something u could load off to someone else
[18:00] <LaserJock> well, to somebody who can see them anyway ;-)
[18:00] <nubae> doesnt need your precious time
[18:01] <LaserJock> well, that's why I need people to step up a bit in terms of development
[18:01] <LaserJock> I *think* people in the bug-control team can see them, I don't think you need to be a full dev
[18:01] <nubae> well... I've seen lots of people wanting to get involved, again, the process is a little bit mistifying
[18:01] <nubae> how one officially becomes part of the edubuntu community I mean
[18:02] <LaserJock> show up here :-)
[18:02] <nubae> u know that will be only 5% of the mailing list, if that... not everyone knows or likes IRC
[18:02] <LaserJock> or can even use IRC (port blocking)
[18:03] <nubae> yeah indeed, school wise for sure
[18:03] <nubae> I think it would be great to get students involved in this process
[18:03] <alkisg> It may also be the opposite... younger people prefer IRC over mailing lists! :)
[18:03] <nubae> lots of the tasks can be done by kids
[18:03] <LaserJock> it's a tricky situation
[18:03] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is very much developed on IRC
[18:03] <LaserJock> Debian is mostly mailing lists
[18:04] <nubae> we need to be in a position to allow a teacher to get his kids to tackle bugs and help the edubuntu community, I think it would be a great way to increase participation
[18:04] <nubae> alkisg: ??
[18:04] <LaserJock> for me personally, I prefer mailing lists as I can get to it when I can
[18:04] <nubae> yeah and remember it.. irc often is discussion
[18:05] <alkisg> nubae: haven't you seen 15-25 year old students? All IRC, no mailing lists...
[18:05] <nubae> don't get me wrong, I think its been very valuable to do what have until now
[18:05] <nubae> alkisg: yeah I meant, what do u think about getting your students involved in edubuntu community tasks
[18:05] <nubae> its a great collaborative excercise
[18:06] <alkisg> Ah, my students are 12-14 years old, can't really offer anything
[18:06] <nubae> app testing, finding bugs and writing them up
[18:06] <alkisg> Half of them don't even speak english
[18:06] <alkisg> And all of them see linux for the first time...
[18:07] <nubae> k... but in general it would be a good idea no?
[18:07] <alkisg> I don't know. I thought about students offering to wikipedia or dictionaries, but bug sqashing? It may be too much for them...
[18:08] <nubae> not squashing, reporting
[18:08] <nubae> oh but they need launchpad accounts for that dont they?
[18:08] <alkisg> Bug reporting could be done by teachers... It don't be reliable from students
[18:09] <alkisg> Many developers ignore non-detailed bug reports, imagine what they'll do if students flood them with "app X hang"
[18:10] <nubae> well as long as they say how it happened, its a start
[18:10] <nubae> but maybe its too specialised yeah
[18:11] <nubae> so quanta is kde's web development package
[18:11] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:11] <LaserJock> although they're waiting for a KDE 4 version
[18:11] <nubae> and gnome has no official one?
[18:11] <alkisg> A pity that komposer isn't updated any more
[18:12] <nubae> whatcha mean?
[18:12] <alkisg> nvu development stopped, and I think komposer only fixed a few bugs after nvu, nothing more
[18:12] <alkisg> I don't think anyone is writing new code & producing new versions
[18:13] <alkisg> It was the best of them (amaya, screem, bluefish, quanta etc)
[18:13] <LaserJock> really?
[18:13] <LaserJock> I thought kompozer was moving forward :(
[18:13] <nubae> kompozer was supposed to be a replacement for nvu I thought
[18:13] <LaserJock> nubae: are you in the edubuntu-bugs team
[18:13] <LaserJock> ?
[18:13] <nubae> no
[18:13] <nubae> :-)
[18:13] <nubae> I'll join
[18:14] <LaserJock> I *think* that might let you see these private bugs
[18:14] <nubae> k, just applied
[18:14] <nubae> god, there are so many different edubuntu related lists
[18:15] <nubae> some totally dead
[18:15] <LaserJock> most
[18:15] <nubae> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu/+members
[18:15] <LaserJock> we have more LP teams than xubuntu or kubuntu I believe
[18:15] <nubae> that was last updated like 2 years ago :-)
[18:16] <nubae> and that looks like the official team, with the icon and everything
[18:16] <nubae> and there seem to be lots of people trying to join....
[18:16] <nubae> its no wonder we get so few volunteers
[18:17] <LaserJock> hmm
[18:17] <LaserJock> I think that's just a placeholder or something
[18:17] <nubae> a placeholder that people are applying for
[18:17] <LaserJock> well, that's common
[18:17] <LaserJock> people just apply for *every* team in Launchpad
[18:18] <alkisg> Hmmm... it turns out I was wrong: http://wysifauthoring.informe.com/forum/kompozer-progress-ae-linux-gtk-o2-14-dt1940.html
[18:18] <alkisg> Someone is still working on Kompozer, good! :)
[18:18] <nubae> ah good...
[18:19] <nubae> are there any more hidden teams I should know about?
[18:19] <nubae> :p
[18:19] <LaserJock> hidden?
[18:19] <nubae> well not obviously visible to me
[18:19] <alkisg> Maybe someone could contact him to have the next Kompozer version ready for Jaunty? :P
[18:20] <nubae> well thats not a bad idea, might give some drive
[18:21] <nubae> ok, I applied for edubuntu-documentation too
[18:21] <LaserJock> heh
[18:22] <nubae> what is edubuntu-testers?
[18:22] <LaserJock> a team for testing edubuntu?
[18:23] <nubae> u can see most of these people joined due to ltsp
[18:23] <LaserJock> edubuntu-members and edubuntu-bugs are the only teams that I know that actually do anything
[18:23] <LaserJock> well, most of those teams are from the LTSP days
[18:23] <nubae> yea
[18:24] <nubae> can't we either disband them or fix the memberships?
[18:24] <LaserJock> well, we were going to do that like a year ago
[18:24] <LaserJock> but we never got around to it
[18:25] <nubae> what does it require doing?
[18:25] <LaserJock> I wanted to remove them, but other people felt that was harsh
[18:25] <nubae> why?
[18:25] <nubae> if they do nothing, it just confuses everyone
[18:25] <LaserJock> because you're shutting down other peoples stuff
[18:25] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if Launchpad would even let us do it
[18:25] <nubae> but that would imply they do something
[18:26] <LaserJock> a launchpad team doesn't have to do anything to exist
[18:26] <nubae> I've noticed, but we should be able to spring clean
[18:26] <Ahmuck> good afternoon nubae
[18:26] <LaserJock> but we don't own those teams
[18:26] <LaserJock> that's really the crux of the matter
[18:26] <nubae> ok, so maybe we should mention no the website, which teams actually do something
[18:27] <nubae> ?
[18:27] <nubae> hi Ahmuck
[18:27] <nubae> like on the community page say... these are the teams to apply to if you want to get involved
[18:27] <nubae> so we have something half way official
[18:27] <LaserJock> nubae: I think we could ping the owners to see if we can get them to clean up
[18:28] <LaserJock> but otherwise, yeah, I think we just document which ones are official
[18:28] <nubae> I think Oli is an admin on many of those
[18:29] <LaserJock> some
[18:29] <nubae> yeah some
[18:29] <LaserJock> in the strategy doc I'm outlining the official teams
[18:29] <nubae> k, cool
[18:30] <LaserJock> hopefully that will help
[18:31] <nubae> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu is not a placeholder
[18:31] <nubae> its the main link u get when searching edubuntu in launchpad
[18:31] <nubae> that should really change
[18:32] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure what we can do about it
[18:33] <nubae> cant we get the link changed to edubuntu members?
[18:33] <nubae> it contains all the same people + the active ones
[18:33] <LaserJock> alright, well #ubuntu-motu says that kompozer is dying and that there is going to be a replacement
[18:33] <nubae> ah, k scratch that one then
[18:34] <LaserJock> what link?
[18:34] <nubae> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu
[18:34] <LaserJock> oh, so you want to put a link to edubuntu-members or something from launchpad.net/~edubuntu
[18:35] <LaserJock> ?
[18:35] <nubae> right
[18:35] <nubae> or u ping someone there and get yourself on that list to fix it
[18:35] <nubae> then u could get edubuntu-members and bugsquad to be sub members of it
[18:35] <LaserJock> or we actually use it for something
[18:35] <nubae> right
[18:36] <nubae> that would make the most sense, make that the hub that links the sub teams
[18:36] <nubae> then we could put bugsquad, members, documentation, and website underneath it
[18:36] <nubae> and manage it all properly
[18:37] <LaserJock> http://www.bluegriffon.org/
[18:38] <nubae> looks like seamonkey
[18:38] <LaserJock> should
[18:39] <LaserJock> hmm, we could make ~edubuntu a fanboy team
[18:39] <LaserJock> and add in the official teams
[18:39] <nubae> yeah... shall I add doing that to the agenda?
[18:40] <LaserJock> sure
[18:41] <nubae> k now we should have lots to talk about tomorrow ;-)
[18:42] <LaserJock> so Xubuntu has: users, contributors, documentors, developers, council, and project lead
[18:42] <nubae> sounds more organised than us :p
[18:43] <LaserJock> they have more of everything than us :-)
[18:43] <LaserJock> although they almost imploded during Hardy
[18:44] <LaserJock> Cody wrote their strategy doc and because XPL and it's done much better
[18:45] <nubae> because XPL?
[18:45] <LaserJock> became
[18:45] <LaserJock> Xubuntu Project Lead
[18:45] <nubae> ah
[18:47] <nubae> still only see 10 open bugs for komopzer... guess u need to be a dev too
[18:51] <Ahmuck> is gimpshop still active?
[18:53] <nubae> sure, seems the latest version was recently released
[18:54] <Ahmuck> really?
[18:54] <Ahmuck> let me check
[18:55] <nubae> they're release schedule is quite unclear though
[18:58] <Ahmuck> can u point me to where you found the latest version?
[18:58] <Ahmuck> i can't seem to find it'
[18:59] <LaserJock> Launchpad permissions are horrible
[18:59] <LaserJock> even #launchpad can't tell me who get's to see private bugs
[19:00] <nubae> heh
[19:00] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu Bugmaster doesn't know either
[19:00] <nubae> so much for decentralised bazaar style development
[19:00] <nubae> Ahmuck: on gimpshop's page
[19:05] <LaserJock> so tonyyarusso is the guy that packaged kompozer and generally takes care of it. we could ask him about his thoughts on getting it into Main
[19:05] <LaserJock> the other thing we haven't considered a ton is moving Edubuntu to Universe
[19:06] <LaserJock> or perhaps split
[19:06] <LaserJock> we could keep the Ubuntu Education CD as Main but then provide official Universe bundles
[19:06] <nubae> I think the latter is a good idea
[19:07] <nubae> that way we have official well supported, and not so supported apps
[19:07] <nubae> and it gives app makers a reason to keep their stuff updated
[19:07] <nubae> their goal should be to get into main
[19:07] <LaserJock> yeah, IMO, it's a good thing to shoot for
[19:08] <nubae> and then edubuntu name makes sense
[19:08] <nubae> ubuntu education cd, finally makes sense
[19:08] <LaserJock> hmm, you're right
[19:08] <nubae> its the official ubuntu education apps found in main
[19:08] <LaserJock> "Edubuntu" == eduction in Ubuntu
[19:08] <nubae> yeah
[19:08] <nubae> wow, what a weird solutino
[19:08] <nubae> but it makes total sense
[19:09] <nubae> why did we not think of that till now
[19:09] <LaserJock> "ubuntu Education CD" == specific subset of eductional package that are officially supported by canonical, etc.
[19:09] <nubae> it totally makes sense and is not confusing
[19:09] <nubae> how about that
[19:10] <nubae> k, I'll add that to the agenda, and maybe we should put that into the strategy doc, as it seems important not to forget
[19:12] <nubae> I feel like a lot of stuff is getting clearer today...
[19:13] <LaserJock> well, it's not totally buttoned up for me yet
[19:14] <nubae> no but actually advancing is already something
[19:14] <LaserJock> we need to see how that would work for RichEd
[19:14] <nubae> so for that to happen, edubuntu would have to be main+universe
[19:14] <nubae> I think he'll actually like this proposition
[19:14] <nubae> its sort of what he has wanted
[19:16] <nubae> this way, canonical/ubuntu tightly controls the central edu apps, and edubuntu itself is a looser community that includes more edu apps
[19:16] <nubae> loser, not loozer....
[19:17] <LaserJock> I think looser
[19:17] <LaserJock> but yeah, that sort of make sense
[19:18] <LaserJock> so some technical details could be having ubuntu-edu-* being educational bundles from Main
[19:18] <LaserJock> and edubuntu-* being eductional bundles from Universe
[19:18] <nubae> I still don't think we should include every edu app in it though
[19:18] <nubae> yeah
[19:18] <nubae> the apps should still be handpicked
[19:19] <LaserJock> yes
[19:19] <LaserJock> just much broader
[19:20] <nubae> yup, a general rule could be ubuntu-edu should have just one app per cat.
[19:20] <nubae> and be in main of course
[19:24] <LaserJock> well, this sort of makes sense
[19:24] <LaserJock> I've been struggling a bit with the concept of "Edubuntu = community only"
[19:24] <LaserJock> as well, our community does technical things
[19:25] <LaserJock> it's a bit weird to have the community and the things it does having different names
[19:25] <nubae> yep
[19:25] <nubae> I think if u explain it this way to anyone they won't give u blank stares
[19:26] <nubae> also, there is a clear technical split
[19:26] <nubae> its not just semantics
[19:26] <LaserJock> right, yeah
[19:27] <LaserJock> so we'll see what RichEd thinks about that
[19:27] <LaserJock> I think he'll like it
[19:27] <nubae> yep, hopefully he'll hit the meeting... I think he will too, I think it will box everything in nicely
[19:28] <nubae> he can go back to canonical with that and they'll be able to define clearly what they are responsible for
[19:28] <nubae> and say yay or nay
[19:30] <LaserJock> I'm still a bit curious how Canonical plans to support these apps without employing any devs :-)
[19:31] <nubae> heh... especially if the edubuntu part gets donations...
[19:31] <nubae> cause u couldn't justify those going to main apps
[19:32] <nubae> still I'm sure if suddenly they got contracts for multiple schools they'd put a dev back on ubuntu-edu right quick
[19:33] <LaserJock> I'm not so sure, but maybe
[19:33] <LaserJock> hmm, this new thinking would make the app lists on edubuntu.org much nicer as well
[19:33] <LaserJock> as we would probably want to list both sets
[19:34] <nubae> yep, kinda centralise that as a definition
[19:34] <nubae> move away from the idea of just the addon-cd
[19:35] <nubae> we could include the universe apps on the cd as recommends
[19:36] <nubae> u know, getting the ~edubuntu page back really makes sense too, because it would give a clear idea of the volunteers inolved and their areas of activity
[19:38] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure about putting Universe stuff on the CD
[19:38] <nubae> well, we have the space
[19:38] <nubae> I guess it depends on if canonical wants to ship or not
[19:39] <nubae> the website, btw, still mentions they ship the cd
[19:39] <LaserJock> I think we'd fill it up fairly quickly, and I sort of want to keep that as a target
[19:39] <LaserJock> edubuntu is really just strange :-)
[19:40] <LaserJock> it's more "supported" than Xubuntu, Mythbuntu, or Ubuntu Studio
[19:40] <LaserJock> yet you hardly ever see it around in listings of *buntu
[19:40] <nubae> yeah well one reason is its hard to define what it is
[19:40] <LaserJock> yeah
[19:41] <LaserJock> it's not a distro anymore
[19:42] <nubae> although it kinda is with edubuntu-artwork and edubuntu-desktop
[19:43] <LaserJock> it's a hybrid!
[19:43]  * LaserJock thinks of a movie trailer intro
[19:43] <LaserJock> "half distro, half addon layer  .... Edubuntu has come to take over  your school!!!"
[19:44] <nubae> lol
[19:44] <nubae> coming soon on a desktop near you
[19:58] <Lns> Does anyone have information on how specifically schools in the U.S. get their funding every year (dates, processes, etc.)? I'm trying to gather information on this so in the future i can better market to them things like Edubuntu, LTSP, etc
[20:04] <nubae> LaserJock: might know, ask the question again :-)
[20:05] <LaserJock> what question?
[20:05] <LaserJock> I'm gone 2 seconds an people are asking questions? :-)
[20:05] <Lns> nubae: oh i think mine.. Lns Does anyone have information on how specifically schools in the U.S. get their funding every year (dates, processes, etc.)? I'm trying to gather information on this so in the future i can better market to them things like Edubuntu, LTSP, etc (so far i've found this: http://www.ed-data.k12.ca.us/articles/article.asp?title=Guide to California School Finance System )
[20:06] <LaserJock> I don't know a ton of specifics
[20:07] <LaserJock> but generally you have the June-July fiscal year and funding through their state budgets
[20:07] <Lns> LaserJock: ok, thanks.. yeah i see states fund a LOT of the budget (by far the most)
[20:09] <LaserJock> each state is likely to be a little bit different
[20:10] <LaserJock> but generally I think the general concept is the same
[20:10] <LaserJock> however, I'm not an educator exactly so don't rely on me ;-)
[20:10] <Lns> LaserJock: no, the more info the better. that site i linked to has lots of good info as well
[20:11] <nubae> that kind of info would of course be useful to put up somewhere
[20:11] <nubae> as a way to get edubuntu deployed
[20:12] <LaserJock> well, at one point we had a "team" of people interested in advocay/marketing
[20:13] <Lns> LaserJock: i'd be interested in joining that team if it ever comes around again
[20:13] <nubae> I thought thats what RichEd did?
[20:13] <LaserJock> seems like at some point we had people for everything ;-)
[20:13] <nubae> lol
[20:13] <LaserJock> well, basically for Canonical yes
[20:13] <Lns> hehe!
[20:14] <LaserJock> ultimately he's trying to bring in business from the eductional sector for Canonical
[20:14] <Lns> maybe this could be a good topic for tomorrow's meeting?
[20:14] <nubae> k, logical
[20:14] <nubae> what topic exactly?
[20:15] <LaserJock> I think we really need to try to start small
[20:15] <LaserJock> one of the biggest problems I've seen with Edubuntu over the few years I've been here is that we very easily overreach
[20:15] <Lns> nubae: the topic of edubuntu advocacy in schools
[20:16] <nubae> Lns: by all means add it to the page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda#preview
[20:17] <nubae> LaserJock: I agree... I think the 2 main things that need to be talked about are the edubuntu (main or universe) and ~edubuntu launchpad readjusment
[20:17] <Lns> ill leave it out till next meeting then probably
[20:17] <nubae> since they kind of create the infrastructure for the future and for how/where people get involved
[20:17] <LaserJock> Lns: no, it's fine to add it
[20:17] <LaserJock> we'll see if we have tim
[20:18] <LaserJock> +e
[20:18] <Lns> k
[20:18] <nubae> LaserJock: did u ask on #launchpad whether we can get control of ~edubuntu?
[20:19] <LaserJock> we have control of ~edubuntu
[20:19] <LaserJock> in the sense that ogra owns it
[20:19] <nubae> ah k
[20:19] <Lns> done
[20:20] <LaserJock> but several of the other edubuntu teams are not owned by any of edubuntu devel team
[20:20] <Lns> man i love the history -> recently closed tabs feature in ff
[20:20] <LaserJock> or edubuntu council
[20:20] <LaserJock> Lns: yes, it is nice
[20:21] <LaserJock> what would be ideal is to have an ~edubuntu-council team that would own all the other edubuntu teams
[20:21] <LaserJock> so we can then do whatever needs to be done
[20:22] <nubae> yep
[20:55] <Lns> For those interested, here's just a bit more on how schools receive their funding (in the US anyway): http://www.edsource.org
[20:57] <nubae> are there incentives to use open source to get funding?
[20:58] <Lns> nubae: not that i've researched yet, but im sure there are some, way deep in someone's filing cabinet somewhere ;)
[20:59] <Lns> the cost benefits of using F/OSS (as well as a centralized system such as LTSP) are quite obvious, however, it wouldn't be difficult to communicate that to any district board
[21:18] <nubae> I wish there was a reasonable desktop tool that could do what google calendar does
[21:20] <Lns> nubae: sunbird?
[21:20] <nubae> looked at that, but it doesnt do the calendar sharing like google calendar does, and tries to do a bunch more stuff that really isn't needed... but I haven't looked into in detail
[21:21] <Lns> nubae: sure it does (do sharing), using webdav. Its just a calendar, pretty focussed on that actually..ive been using it for years
[21:21] <nubae> the best would be some app that imports google calendars
[21:21] <nubae> have u used google calendar before?
[21:21] <Lns> nubae: no
[21:21] <Lns> never needed to ;)
[21:22] <Lns> but if googlecal can export calendars into .ics, you can import it into sunbird
[21:22] <nubae> well the thing is google calendar is also integrated with most mobile phones
[21:23] <Lns> lol..sounds like you want to stick with google cal ;)
[21:23] <nubae> and most people use google calendar so u can easily share your calendar with them
[21:23] <nubae> no I want a desktop app that does the same thing :-)
[21:23] <nubae> dont want to keep having to go to a website
[21:23] <Lns> nubae: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/sunbird/addon/4631
[21:24] <nubae> hmmm interesting
[21:24] <Lns> ;) that was approximately 2 seconds of googling. :p
[21:25] <nubae> well I was more looking for actual apps, rather than an extension to sunbird... but point taken
[21:25] <Lns> http://www.google.com/search?q=google+calendar+sunbird&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a
[21:26] <Lns> i see a GCALDaemon that does syncing automatically
[21:26] <alkisg> nubae, you may directly use google calendars from evolution
[21:26] <nubae> unfortunately, when u go offline it looses the details though
[21:26] <alkisg> Either read/write (not really stable) or read-only (very stable)
[21:26] <Lns> nubae: well what use is google calendar when you're offline?
[21:26] <nubae> to see my schedule
[21:27] <nubae> and other people's... it should save them locally
[21:27] <alkisg> It doesn't loose the data when you go offline
[21:27] <nubae> sunbird does
[21:27] <alkisg> (talking about evolution)
[21:27] <Lns> evolution suuuuuucks :p imho sorry
[21:27] <nubae> I've looked at evolution and I didn't like its integration, dont remember why
[21:28] <Lns> i don't like linux apps that try to be windows apps
[21:28] <alkisg> Well, I think what it tries to do is just fine, I love the desktop integration.
[21:29] <alkisg> It's most major problem is the html editor for the messages, it kinda sucks
[21:29] <alkisg> They're looking to replace it with a webkit-based one
[21:30] <Lns> alkisg: can you give some integration examples?
[21:30] <alkisg> Well, I click on the time and I see my appointments, birthdays etc that I declared in google calendar without even opening evolution
[21:31] <nubae> what is nice with sunbird is that it integrates with xmpp-salut
[21:32] <alkisg> Also it integrates with pidgin, sharing/updating contacts
[21:32] <nubae> I dont care about pidgin... I want empathy...
[21:32] <alkisg> And of course with the file manager etc, sending files as attachments directly from nautilus
[21:32] <nubae> :-)
[21:32] <alkisg> I saw your blog entry, I suppose it'll be nice when it's ready
[21:33] <alkisg> But I think it's kind of early, even for jaunty
[21:33] <nubae> I've been using for a while now, and it crashes less often than pidgin
[21:33] <nubae> requires some tweaking to get everything working
[21:33] <nubae> but when its setup its beautiful
[21:33] <alkisg> You're using it as an IRC client also?
[21:33] <nubae> yup
[21:34] <nubae> works fantastically
[21:34] <alkisg> I've never seen pidgin crash, I guess I'm lucky!
[21:34] <nubae> take a look at my screenshots
[21:34] <nubae> yeah u are lucky... pidgin used to crash on me daily
[21:34] <alkisg> I used to miss the mic/camera support, but I don't need it much lately, so I'm not in a hurry to switch to empathy
[21:35] <Lns> weird, i use pidgin all the time and it never crashes on me either
[21:35] <Lns> gets disconnected from services sometimes, but that;s the nature of not using an "approved" client to said services
[21:36] <Lns> alkisg: wow, that is nice to see your appts. in gnome calendar thingie
[21:36] <Lns> of course i just ctl+alt+f1 to see sunbird anyway, its always in my workspace #1
[21:37] <nubae> I dont see where u can import google calendar in evolution
[21:37] <nubae> maybe I'm blind
[21:37] <alkisg> Lns, what about contact syncrhonization with your mobile phone? Can you do that with thunderbird?
[21:37] <Lns> alkisg: doubtful, though it does have ldap support for contacts
[21:37] <alkisg> Nubae, you don't import it, you go new calendar and declare that it's a google calendar
[21:38] <Lns> i wouldn't use that anyway.. i dont want my work contacts in my personal phone :p
[21:38] <alkisg> You could split them in different categories, and only sync your personal contacts
[21:38] <Lns> alkisg: tbh i'd rather use an ldap source if i was looking for a global contact db
[21:39] <Lns> that way it integrates with anything at all that supports ldap
[21:39] <nubae> does it copy all my google calendars... ie the shared ones too?
[21:39] <alkisg> nubae, each calendar is a seperate one
[21:39] <nubae> so u have add each one seperately?
[21:39] <alkisg> So you declare the ones you want
[21:40] <alkisg> Yup
[21:40] <nubae> hmm, but I dont have username and password for many of the shared calendars
[21:40] <nubae> what I'm asking is... I subscribe to another calendar from google calendar
[21:40] <nubae> do I then see it in evolution?
[21:40] <alkisg> No, you have to declare it there also
[21:41] <alkisg> Without username/password, just the url
[21:41] <alkisg> But in this case, it's read only
[21:43] <nubae> alkisg: that doesn't seem to work
[21:44] <alkisg> That's declared as webcal, not google calendar
[21:44] <nubae> under name I put the name of the calendar (olpcaustria.org in this case)
[21:44] <nubae> then click ok, and nothing shows
[21:44] <nubae> oh
[21:45] <nubae> but the calendar is a shared google calendar
[21:45] <alkisg> I've been using it for 7-8 months now, it works fine. But I also have difficulties remembering how I did it in the first place! :P :D
[21:45] <alkisg> Yes, there's an .ics link for it, isn't there?
[21:46] <alkisg> E.g. I'm using a "Greek holidays" google shared calendar
[21:47] <nubae> this then: ID de Calendar: 86c82lk0g9qb3bk04tmrrg04gs@group.calendar.google.com
[21:47] <nubae> ?
[21:47] <alkisg> You should be able to see the .ics file if you go to its properties in google
[21:48] <alkisg> Let me try it...
[21:49] <nubae> nah u can download a .ics file though
[21:49] <alkisg> E.g. this is the URL for Greek holidays: http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/greek__el%40holiday.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics
[21:49] <alkisg> Yes, this is what you put for read-only web calendars, just the .ics file
[21:49] <alkisg> Evolution then caches a copy and shows it locally
[21:50] <nubae> but then I need to download that every time
[21:50] <alkisg> For read-write calendars you need username/password
[21:50] <alkisg> No, it caches it
[21:50] <nubae> why not give me an address then, why make me download it?
[21:50] <alkisg> So it works offline etc
[21:50] <nubae> oh wait found it
[21:50] <nubae> its an ICAL link
[21:50] <alkisg> You don't have to download it, evolution downloads it for you
[21:50] <nubae> they dont call it .ics
[21:55] <nubae> ok, still missing something here... whats the address then: webcal://http:// doesn't seem right
[21:56] <alkisg> No. Let me run evolution with an english UI...
[21:56] <nubae> oh wait got it
[21:56] <nubae> just need to take out http://
[21:56] <nubae> now I believe you, lol :p
[21:57] <alkisg> OK... the nice thing is that if you click at the time, you may see your appointments, even the days where you have programmed something are bold etc, very nice
[22:02] <nubae> yeah its nice, ok, now its usable, thanks alkisg :-) learn something new every day
[22:03] <alkisg> OK, tommorow we have "fog": how to clone 30 PCs in 30 minutes :P
[22:03] <nubae> fog?
[22:04] <alkisg> http://www.fogproject.org/ - but it's for tomorrow! :P :D
[22:05] <nubae> u part of their team or what?
[22:07] <alkisg> no - nothing like that, it's just a very nice project, and I was joking that it would be what I would teach you the next day (about the "you learn something every day" that you said)
[22:07] <nubae> :p ah :-)
[23:15] <Lns> !o
[23:15] <Lns> awww..o is for ogra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111one
[23:15] <nubae> only the ltsp bot knows that
[23:16] <nubae> I believe :-)
[23:16] <Lns> hehe
[23:16] <nubae> Lns: u part of edubuntu members?
[23:17] <Lns> nubae: iirc yes.. on lp?
[23:17] <nubae> yah
[23:18] <nubae> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members/+members
[23:19] <nothingman> hi, nubae!
[23:19] <nubae> hi nothingman
[23:19] <nothingman> I've been hoping to run into you
[23:19] <nubae> how can I help u
[23:19] <nothingman> j/w: how did you come to be so involved with edubuntu?
[23:20] <nubae> Lns: u should apply, as tomorrow the council should decide if u get approved or not...
[23:20] <nothingman> I've been reading your page and some of the pages of people contributing
[23:20] <nubae> nothingman: I feel its important to contribute to education through open source projects, so I do what I can
[23:22] <nubae> Lns: u're part of edubuntu bugsquad
[23:22] <Lns> nubae: done
[23:23] <nubae> funny to put a face to the name
[23:23] <nubae> most people don't have pics on their profiles :-)
[23:24] <Lns> hehe
[23:24] <Lns> its important to do that..you know, since after all, we're human, not bits ;)
[23:25] <nubae> yeah :-)
[23:34] <nothingman> nubae: you don't have any ties to education otherwise?
[23:35] <nubae> yes I do... I've been a teacher, IT consultant, OLPC volunteer and moodle hacker...
[23:35] <nothingman> I noticed you had a get-together in Maine; I'm in NY - do you live in New England?
[23:35] <nubae> so I do a little bit of everything as long as it contains IT and education
[23:35] <nothingman> neat
[23:36] <nubae> me, get together in Maine?... nah u must be thinking of the ltsp hackfest
[23:36] <nothingman> I'm a tech teacher/admin for two catholic schools in my area
[23:36] <nothingman> yeah
[23:36] <nubae> no, I'm located in Europe
[23:36] <nubae> Vienna, Austria
[23:36] <nothingman> huh
[23:36] <nubae> nothingman: cool, u should get involved with edubuntu, we need folks to contribute
[23:36] <nothingman> yeah, would love to
[23:37] <nothingman> can I call myself a "beginner coder"?
[23:37] <nothingman> I would love to help document
[23:37] <nubae> u can call yourself what u like :-)
[23:37] <nothingman> I think I'd be helpful getting "regular" teachers to be able to use the software
[23:37] <nubae> hang around this channel when u can... and tomorrow we have a developer meeting at 18 utc
[23:37] <nubae> yeah we need help in lots of areas
[23:38] <nothingman> good deal
[23:38] <nothingman> I can't tomorrow night; have to work my part-time job
[23:38] <nothingman> but I'll check the log on your habari
[23:38] <nubae> ah k.. well u can always check the logs
[23:38] <nubae> thats for #ltsp
[23:39] <nubae> there should be a log on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Edubuntu
[23:39] <nothingman> right
[23:39] <nothingman> I thought you had a link on your site
[23:39] <nothingman> but OK
[23:39] <nothingman> oic
[23:39] <nothingman> never mind, I got it
[23:39] <nubae> to #ltsp yes, but thats #ubuntu-meeting
[23:39] <nothingman> I will
[23:39] <nothingman> We have a lot of laptops whose hard drives are dying
[23:40] <nubae> yeah that happens
[23:40] <nubae> usually just after the warrant expires :-)
[23:40] <nothingman> ideally, I would install something to an SD card or USB stick, but I don't know of a device older than a netbook that boots from SD, and the kids'd break a thumb drive
[23:40] <nothingman> right
[23:40] <nubae> hardware companies are very tricky that way
[23:40] <nothingman> but they're *nice*
[23:41] <nothingman> decent intel graphics, 256MB RAM, SD slots, KVMS...
[23:41] <nubae> if they contain SD drives, they should boot from them
[23:41] <nubae> maybe u need an updated bios
[23:41] <nubae> the other option is set them up as ltsp clients
[23:41] <nothingman> wireless, but of course that's useless to boot from, so useless as clients
[23:41] <nothingman> yeah, I have
[23:41] <nothingman> I'm trying to get two servers going for one school (one down) and one for the other (a nightmare)
[23:42] <nothingman> any idea how to update h2insyde BIOSes?
[23:42] <nothingman> they're nexlink computers
[23:42] <nubae> nope but a search on the net should bring up some results
[23:42] <nothingman> this is a question for all takers because google reveals nothing
[23:42] <nubae> try the homepage of the computer companies website
[23:44] <nothingman> yeah, that was fruitless, too
[23:44] <nubae> hmm strange
[23:44] <nothingman> they don't even have a support page for the model (now 4-5yrs old, tbf)
[23:44] <nubae> what about using those new tiny usb sticks, the ones that hardly stick out
[23:45] <nubae> I've got one that is just the length of the usb slot, so u can't hardly see it
[23:46] <nothingman> yeah, how much are those?
[23:46] <nothingman> I'm now being told that we don't have much money for hardware
[23:46] <nubae> you're a school, of course u don't have money for hardware :-)
[23:46] <nubae> I'd guess about 10-20 dollars a piece
[23:46] <nothingman> last year the interim principle wrote checks like crazy if I asked for anything
[23:47] <nothingman> I can't seem to find one
[23:48] <nubae> http://www.memorysuppliers.com/usb-drive-smiles.html
[23:49] <nubae> something like that
[23:51] <nothingman> yeah
[23:51] <nothingman> good prices there
[23:57]  * LaserJock reads backscroll
[23:57]  * nubae was recruiting :-)
[23:58] <LaserJock> nothingman: we'd love to have you get involved with edubuntu
[23:58] <LaserJock> hmm, there's a lot we need to do
[23:59] <nubae> yeah, that list of tasks will be useful
[23:59] <nubae> but really the best place would be with the edubuntu members page or some such
[23:59] <LaserJock> well, we need to get some things together