[01:08] hi, all [01:13] someone have a problem already so I can watch the discussion! [01:14] anyone doing anything new and interesting with Edubuntu? [01:18] hi, all === foka__ is now known as foka [13:47] good morning [14:45] Morning all [15:00] morning sbalneav [15:01] hi guys === alkisg1 is now known as alkisg [17:11] RichEd: hi [17:12] greets LaserJock, RichEd [17:12] nubae: kpercentage has been removed from KDE Edu, that's why it's not in Jaunty [17:12] Oh? I didn't ask about kpercentage though [17:12] :-) [17:12] I asked about klettres [17:13] but I shall keep that in mind when making the jaunty app list [17:13] did u get my message yesterday? [17:13] bah, i was thinking you said kpercentage in your email but you said kgeography, my bad [17:14] oh and kgeography too yeah [17:14] nubae: not sure, what was your message? [17:14] please can u review: http://www.edubuntu.org/applications [17:15] very short intro, and probably slightly incorrect [17:15] but links to both intrepid and hardy are now there [17:16] yeah, it's a great start [17:16] we can probably tweak some of the wording [17:16] yeah thought so [17:16] somehow we need to make it attractive to app creators and users to get involved [17:16] I'd like to work a bit on the application list format [17:16] ok [17:17] I'd like to try to shorten things up a bit [17:17] I'm not sure if/how we can do it [17:17] I sent a couple mails to the list too, concerning other apps and screem replacement, u probably saw [17:17] well, what are your ideas? [17:17] the descriptions are like double spaced [17:18] and I think it wouldn't hurt to bring out "category" "homepage" and "version" more [17:18] like maybe bold them or something [17:18] yeah true [17:19] another option [17:19] maybe category should be under version [17:19] we could group by category [17:19] ok, right now its alphabetical [17:20] I dont think there are enough categories to warrant that right now [17:20] well [17:20] many categories have only one app [17:20] but perhaps we should group by primary, secondary, etc. [17:20] as really, the category is somewhat redundant [17:20] because you have the short description and the long description [17:21] yeah or have a recommended age group [17:21] it should be pretty clear quickly what the app is for, maybe we don't need that "category" thing [17:21] since there's only one or a very few in each [17:22] hmm, right [17:22] RichEd: do you have age ranges for pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary ? we're finding in some places it makes more sense to use age ranges [17:22] we need to try thinking like teachers here [17:22] how would u search for something u need [17:22] age-range is more international for sure [17:22] well, I'm not sure I'm wanting to search so much on this page [17:23] ok, browse then :-) [17:23] I'm wanting an overview of what is offered [17:23] so I guess if I was a primary school teacher i'm wanting to see primary school apps [17:23] or apps for 4-9 years [17:24] ok, so we list the apps from lowest age to highest? [17:24] that might not be a bad way to go [17:25] and then we can make anchors for primary (age group 4-9), secondary, etc [17:25] on the top of the page [17:26] yeah [17:27] that seems the most logical to me [17:28] I think we should expand the intro page a bit too [17:28] perhaps [17:28] with a better explanation of how/why the apps have been chosen [17:28] my general philosophy is to keep pages simple with little prose [17:28] mostly bullet points and links [17:28] yeah agreed... [17:29] the downloads page needs -serious- simplifying [17:29] we can also say how people can recommend apps [17:29] right [17:29] we can do like wine does... people recommend apps, and once a certain number have recommended, they include it [17:30] so it goes by popularity [17:30] well ... [17:30] they also get people to donate that way, lol, but guess thats not possible with edubuntu [17:30] we can't really go on popularity [17:30] though it's a factor [17:31] well, lets say a teacher really wants a particular app in edubuntu, and with that increased support... [17:31] some things are very popular but very difficult or sometimes impossible [17:31] they can vote the app in, making a donation? [17:31] I can see that being unpopular I guess [17:32] well, we're not really set up for donations [17:32] right, but thats not hard to do, the political part might be though [17:32] donations can be setup via a paypal account quite easily [17:33] well, but I mean I don't know where the donations would go, etc. [17:33] to the people maintaining/supporting/coding the app in question [17:34] well, that's a tricky thing :-) [17:34] its to push the inclusion of it in main [17:34] or in a general edubuntu pot [17:34] that then gets socially distributed? [17:35] I don't know [17:35] in general Ubuntu has really stayed away from involving money [17:35] I know... but edubuntu has no paid canonical employees anymore [17:35] they get support from their support contracts [17:36] so they do involve money indirectly [17:36] well, I dont care so much, its just an idea, and it might get more people involved [17:36] right [17:36] I know MOTU have struggled a bit with this [17:36] it's hard when we're such a loose organization [17:37] yeah, edubuntu would be easier I suppose though [17:37] maybe we should bring it up at the meeting tomorrow? [17:37] perhaps, though it would be unclear to me still who the money would go to [17:38] you can certainly add it to the agenda if you like [17:38] me too, but it can certainly go towards something [17:38] we dont need to decide right away [17:39] it would be nice if the Ubuntu Foundation was available for such things [17:39] ok, I'll add to agenda [17:39] how about adding new apps to be included for jaunty too? [17:40] yes, we should discuss which ones to target [17:41] ok, added both items to agenda [17:42] oh... quick question about squeak, I noticed its in multiverse [17:42] I thought it was in universe [17:42] no, multiverse because it's not free [17:42] it is now [17:43] its totally free now [17:43] supposedly [17:43] but the packages we currently have are not [17:43] no really, I've checked the licensing :-) [17:43] oh, ok [17:43] no really, I've checked the code ;-) [17:43] this is the vm thing [17:43] the squeak vm is not what I'd call great licensing [17:43] yeah i know [17:44] but they are able to include the source along with that [17:44] but I'm done getting worked up about it ;-) [17:44] well, I don't so much mind that issue actually [17:44] yeah, they are not gonna change their ways.. its just a very important package is all [17:44] but they were call ing things GPL that weren't [17:44] they were including non-free patent-laden code and calling it GPL [17:45] yeah i remember [17:45] but they rewrote all those parts supposedly [17:45] and when I asked the author about it he sent me a snotty email ;-) [17:45] hehe, ok, but it shouldnt get personal [17:45] however, it sounds as if Debian's got things worked out pretty well [17:45] so we can take their package hopefully [17:46] cool [17:46] ok, about this MIR thing... should I go through the process for a particular app? [17:46] well, we need to figure out what apps we'd like to get [17:47] and then yeah, each one will need to go through the MIR [17:47] yep, I sent an email to the list about that [17:47] maybe add your 2 cents... [17:47] I will [17:47] revive the list a bit :-) [17:47] the replacements are a bit more tricky [17:48] we have the issue of inertia [17:48] hmm, I thought that would be easier... like u can give more reasoning for it [17:48] say package x is buggy so we replace with better maintained package y [17:48] well, it's easier to say "look, we don't have any app that does ..." [17:48] ok, from that perspective I get too [17:49] but when people have already been using the app, etc. [17:49] and we're going to replace it [17:49] we need a bit more thought, IMO [17:49] for instance, you said kompozer was pretty buggy [17:49] yeah, I've found it to crash [17:50] but there is no replacement for it, its the only real WYSIWYG web editor [17:50] there are lots of non-wysiwyg editors [17:50] is it worse than screem? is it buggeir in different ways that are better/worse? is upstream responsive? etc. [17:50] screem is not WYSIWYG [17:50] and its as buggy as kompozer [17:52] so bluefish is actually the proper replacement for screem? [17:52] yeah [17:52] kompozer is a new category of app [17:52] although looking at launchpad, there are no open bugs with screem, but thats for sure cause no one uses it [17:53] no open bugs?! [17:53] nope, well last open bug is in there from gutsy! [17:53] screem has 21 open bugs [17:54] oh wait [17:54] looking in wrong place [17:54] heh [17:54] I looked in the package itself [17:54] so kompozer has far less [17:55] no sigsevs [17:55] kompozer has 28 open bugs [17:55] hmmm, where u seeing that? [17:55] I only found 12 [17:56] with a rough count of 17 sigsevs [17:56] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kompozer [17:56] bug 263441 [17:56] Launchpad bug 263441 in kompozer "kompozer crashes in intrepid when opening the recent files menu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/263441 [17:56] hmm I see 10 there, not 28 [17:57] Amaya is another one [17:57] yeah amaya is unusable... u tried it ever? [17:57] But I've used all of them, and all crashed so frequently that I had to switch to fckeditor [17:57] bluefish is allright [17:57] how about quanta+? [17:58] but yeah you're right, they all suck balls... I use wine+dreamweaver [17:58] nubae: oh, you know what it is, the sigsevs are private bugs [17:58] nubae: so I can see them and you can't :( [17:58] ah :-) [17:59] that's kinda dumb [17:59] I was getting kinda confused... u're definitely seeing stuff I am not [17:59] a person can get a really bad perception of a package that way [17:59] why are sigsevs private? [17:59] because they contain crash data [17:59] which *may* contain personal info [17:59] jussi01: quanta seems ok too [18:00] once we verify that there isn't any we un-private them [18:00] LaserJock: aaahhh :-) [18:00] and that responsibility falls to u too? [18:00] surely that is something u could load off to someone else [18:00] well, to somebody who can see them anyway ;-) [18:00] doesnt need your precious time [18:01] well, that's why I need people to step up a bit in terms of development [18:01] I *think* people in the bug-control team can see them, I don't think you need to be a full dev [18:01] well... I've seen lots of people wanting to get involved, again, the process is a little bit mistifying [18:01] how one officially becomes part of the edubuntu community I mean [18:02] show up here :-) [18:02] u know that will be only 5% of the mailing list, if that... not everyone knows or likes IRC [18:02] or can even use IRC (port blocking) [18:03] yeah indeed, school wise for sure [18:03] I think it would be great to get students involved in this process [18:03] It may also be the opposite... younger people prefer IRC over mailing lists! :) [18:03] lots of the tasks can be done by kids [18:03] it's a tricky situation [18:03] Ubuntu is very much developed on IRC [18:03] Debian is mostly mailing lists [18:04] we need to be in a position to allow a teacher to get his kids to tackle bugs and help the edubuntu community, I think it would be a great way to increase participation [18:04] alkisg: ?? [18:04] for me personally, I prefer mailing lists as I can get to it when I can [18:04] yeah and remember it.. irc often is discussion [18:05] nubae: haven't you seen 15-25 year old students? All IRC, no mailing lists... [18:05] don't get me wrong, I think its been very valuable to do what have until now [18:05] alkisg: yeah I meant, what do u think about getting your students involved in edubuntu community tasks [18:05] its a great collaborative excercise [18:06] Ah, my students are 12-14 years old, can't really offer anything [18:06] app testing, finding bugs and writing them up [18:06] Half of them don't even speak english [18:06] And all of them see linux for the first time... [18:07] k... but in general it would be a good idea no? [18:07] I don't know. I thought about students offering to wikipedia or dictionaries, but bug sqashing? It may be too much for them... [18:08] not squashing, reporting [18:08] oh but they need launchpad accounts for that dont they? [18:08] Bug reporting could be done by teachers... It don't be reliable from students [18:09] Many developers ignore non-detailed bug reports, imagine what they'll do if students flood them with "app X hang" [18:10] well as long as they say how it happened, its a start [18:10] but maybe its too specialised yeah [18:11] so quanta is kde's web development package [18:11] yeah [18:11] although they're waiting for a KDE 4 version [18:11] and gnome has no official one? [18:11] A pity that komposer isn't updated any more [18:12] whatcha mean? [18:12] nvu development stopped, and I think komposer only fixed a few bugs after nvu, nothing more [18:12] I don't think anyone is writing new code & producing new versions [18:13] It was the best of them (amaya, screem, bluefish, quanta etc) [18:13] really? [18:13] I thought kompozer was moving forward :( [18:13] kompozer was supposed to be a replacement for nvu I thought [18:13] nubae: are you in the edubuntu-bugs team [18:13] ? [18:13] no [18:13] :-) [18:13] I'll join [18:14] I *think* that might let you see these private bugs [18:14] k, just applied [18:14] god, there are so many different edubuntu related lists [18:15] some totally dead [18:15] most [18:15] https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu/+members [18:15] we have more LP teams than xubuntu or kubuntu I believe [18:15] that was last updated like 2 years ago :-) [18:16] and that looks like the official team, with the icon and everything [18:16] and there seem to be lots of people trying to join.... [18:16] its no wonder we get so few volunteers [18:17] hmm [18:17] I think that's just a placeholder or something [18:17] a placeholder that people are applying for [18:17] well, that's common [18:17] people just apply for *every* team in Launchpad [18:18] Hmmm... it turns out I was wrong: http://wysifauthoring.informe.com/forum/kompozer-progress-ae-linux-gtk-o2-14-dt1940.html [18:18] Someone is still working on Kompozer, good! :) [18:18] ah good... [18:19] are there any more hidden teams I should know about? [18:19] :p [18:19] hidden? [18:19] well not obviously visible to me [18:19] Maybe someone could contact him to have the next Kompozer version ready for Jaunty? :P [18:20] well thats not a bad idea, might give some drive [18:21] ok, I applied for edubuntu-documentation too [18:21] heh [18:22] what is edubuntu-testers? [18:22] a team for testing edubuntu? [18:23] u can see most of these people joined due to ltsp [18:23] edubuntu-members and edubuntu-bugs are the only teams that I know that actually do anything [18:23] well, most of those teams are from the LTSP days [18:23] yea [18:24] can't we either disband them or fix the memberships? [18:24] well, we were going to do that like a year ago [18:24] but we never got around to it [18:25] what does it require doing? [18:25] I wanted to remove them, but other people felt that was harsh [18:25] why? [18:25] if they do nothing, it just confuses everyone [18:25] because you're shutting down other peoples stuff [18:25] I'm not sure if Launchpad would even let us do it [18:25] but that would imply they do something [18:26] a launchpad team doesn't have to do anything to exist [18:26] I've noticed, but we should be able to spring clean [18:26] good afternoon nubae [18:26] but we don't own those teams [18:26] that's really the crux of the matter [18:26] ok, so maybe we should mention no the website, which teams actually do something [18:27] ? [18:27] hi Ahmuck [18:27] like on the community page say... these are the teams to apply to if you want to get involved [18:27] so we have something half way official [18:27] nubae: I think we could ping the owners to see if we can get them to clean up [18:28] but otherwise, yeah, I think we just document which ones are official [18:28] I think Oli is an admin on many of those [18:29] some [18:29] yeah some [18:29] in the strategy doc I'm outlining the official teams [18:29] k, cool [18:30] hopefully that will help [18:31] https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu is not a placeholder [18:31] its the main link u get when searching edubuntu in launchpad [18:31] that should really change [18:32] well, I'm not sure what we can do about it [18:33] cant we get the link changed to edubuntu members? [18:33] it contains all the same people + the active ones [18:33] alright, well #ubuntu-motu says that kompozer is dying and that there is going to be a replacement [18:33] ah, k scratch that one then [18:34] what link? [18:34] https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu [18:34] oh, so you want to put a link to edubuntu-members or something from launchpad.net/~edubuntu [18:35] ? [18:35] right [18:35] or u ping someone there and get yourself on that list to fix it [18:35] then u could get edubuntu-members and bugsquad to be sub members of it [18:35] or we actually use it for something [18:35] right [18:36] that would make the most sense, make that the hub that links the sub teams [18:36] then we could put bugsquad, members, documentation, and website underneath it [18:36] and manage it all properly [18:37] http://www.bluegriffon.org/ [18:38] looks like seamonkey [18:38] should [18:39] hmm, we could make ~edubuntu a fanboy team [18:39] and add in the official teams [18:39] yeah... shall I add doing that to the agenda? [18:40] sure [18:41] k now we should have lots to talk about tomorrow ;-) [18:42] so Xubuntu has: users, contributors, documentors, developers, council, and project lead [18:42] sounds more organised than us :p [18:43] they have more of everything than us :-) [18:43] although they almost imploded during Hardy [18:44] Cody wrote their strategy doc and because XPL and it's done much better [18:45] because XPL? [18:45] became [18:45] Xubuntu Project Lead [18:45] ah [18:47] still only see 10 open bugs for komopzer... guess u need to be a dev too [18:51] is gimpshop still active? [18:53] sure, seems the latest version was recently released [18:54] really? [18:54] let me check [18:55] they're release schedule is quite unclear though [18:58] can u point me to where you found the latest version? [18:58] i can't seem to find it' [18:59] Launchpad permissions are horrible [18:59] even #launchpad can't tell me who get's to see private bugs [19:00] heh [19:00] the Ubuntu Bugmaster doesn't know either [19:00] so much for decentralised bazaar style development [19:00] Ahmuck: on gimpshop's page [19:05] so tonyyarusso is the guy that packaged kompozer and generally takes care of it. we could ask him about his thoughts on getting it into Main [19:05] the other thing we haven't considered a ton is moving Edubuntu to Universe [19:06] or perhaps split [19:06] we could keep the Ubuntu Education CD as Main but then provide official Universe bundles [19:06] I think the latter is a good idea [19:07] that way we have official well supported, and not so supported apps [19:07] and it gives app makers a reason to keep their stuff updated [19:07] their goal should be to get into main [19:07] yeah, IMO, it's a good thing to shoot for [19:08] and then edubuntu name makes sense [19:08] ubuntu education cd, finally makes sense [19:08] hmm, you're right [19:08] its the official ubuntu education apps found in main [19:08] "Edubuntu" == eduction in Ubuntu [19:08] yeah [19:08] wow, what a weird solutino [19:08] but it makes total sense [19:09] why did we not think of that till now [19:09] "ubuntu Education CD" == specific subset of eductional package that are officially supported by canonical, etc. [19:09] it totally makes sense and is not confusing [19:09] how about that [19:10] k, I'll add that to the agenda, and maybe we should put that into the strategy doc, as it seems important not to forget [19:12] I feel like a lot of stuff is getting clearer today... [19:13] well, it's not totally buttoned up for me yet [19:14] no but actually advancing is already something [19:14] we need to see how that would work for RichEd [19:14] so for that to happen, edubuntu would have to be main+universe [19:14] I think he'll actually like this proposition [19:14] its sort of what he has wanted [19:16] this way, canonical/ubuntu tightly controls the central edu apps, and edubuntu itself is a looser community that includes more edu apps [19:16] loser, not loozer.... [19:17] I think looser [19:17]