Technovikingevening all02:57
amachuTheMuso: elkbuntu : persia : lifeless : Hi09:01
amachuMaWaLe: Welcome09:01
TheMusoHi amachu.09:01
MaWaLethx amachu09:01
amachuelkbuntu: TheMuso : lifeless : are you people there?09:02
elkbuntusorry the past few weeks, i was travelling09:02
amachuelkbuntu: Hi09:02
TheMusoamachu: Yes I am here.09:02
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
amachuand lifeless?09:03
nizaruselkbuntu: travelling in Tunisia (irc channel) :p09:03
amachuWe miss zakame and belutz again09:03
elkbuntunizarus, huh?09:03
* persia opens https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania09:04
elkbuntui'm trying to deal with a troublemaker in -ops, so my responses will be slow09:05
elkbuntuyay, relieved of that09:05
amachuwe shall start09:06
TheMusoOur candidate is not here it seems, or at least not in channel.09:06
MaWaLei'm here :-/09:06
persiaWell, the other isn't.09:06
amachuTheMuso: MaWaLe is present09:06
elkbuntuMaWaLe, so, what have you done in the time since we last saw you?09:07
TheMusoSorry misread.09:07
MaWaLeelkbuntu: i participated to the ENIS EVENT 8.12 and actually planning the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)09:07
elkbuntucould you explain what ENIS is?09:08
MaWaLeENIS : Ecole NAtionale des Ingénieurs à Sfax : National School of Engineers at Sfax09:08
elkbuntuand what happens at it?09:09
MaWaLewe held two conf'days and migrate the labs of the ENIS to Ubuntu09:09
amachuhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/EventENIS is in Tunisian. request you to explain a bit more09:09
MaWaLei also animate an install party for the technical staff and the students there09:09
nizarusamachu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/TeamReporting#ENIS%20Event%208.1209:10
MaWaLeIn  this event, I promote Ubuntu and hold a conference about Ubuntu and his use.09:11
MaWaLeThe ENIS EVENT 9.01 leads to migrate over than 1000 PCs and Laptops to Ubuntu and to provide assistance to the technical staff of the Tunisian National School of Engineers.09:11
amachuwhat kind of assistance do you provide after migration?09:12
MaWaLeit'll be a 3 days conference (23, 24 and 25th january)09:12
MaWaLeassistance for using Ubuntu for novice users, technical support, documentation09:13
elkbuntuMaWaLe, what sort of assistance? on-site? phone?09:14
MaWaLephone, mailing, skype and live meetings09:14
MaWaLei'm in constant contact whith the person in charge for the labs that we migrate09:15
MaWaLei always take part to the FST Conf'Day09:16
MaWaLein this day i present Ubuntu and the virtualization under ubuntu09:16
elkbuntuif 2009 will be 1000 computers, how many were in 2008?09:17
MaWaLeabout 300 i think09:18
MaWaLeand this time there's a pics to illustrate my tolds :)09:18
elkbuntuany other board have questions for mawale?09:19
elkbuntuTheMuso, persia?09:20
* TheMuso reads the wiki page again to make sure he hasn't missed anything...09:20
persiaMaWaLe, I notice that your wiki page recently has a removal of an endorsement: do you know why this happened, and could you explain the change?09:20
elkbuntuamachu, questioned out?09:20
amachuMaWaLe: are there people here live to say few words about you now09:21
amachupersia: TheMuso: ?09:21
TheMusoMaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?09:21
MaWaLeamachu: it's due to the dismission of Rafik from the management Committee09:22
MaWaLeand the removal of the testimonial was made few minutes ago09:23
amachuMaWaLe: I am asking, are there members here right now at IRC09:24
elkbuntunizarus, can you back up mawale's story?09:24
MaWaLethere nizarus09:24
nizarushi :)09:24
alibbi am tunisian loco team member09:24
alibbhi every one09:24
elkbuntualibb, is what mawale says about rafik true?09:25
amachupersia: are you there?09:25
nizarusin our LoCo we got some troubles and rafik decided to leave the LoCo09:25
persiaamachu, Yes.09:25
MaWaLelast modification of the wiki page :  06.01.2009 09:11:47 by rafik09:25
elkbuntunizarus, was this trouble a fight with mawale and rafik?09:26
alibbelkbuntu,  yes MaWaLe and nizarus words are true09:26
nizarusas he have a point of view different from all the LoCo09:26
elkbuntuRafik, are you around?09:26
nizarusso I confirm my testimonials for MaWaLe09:26
elkbuntuRafik, we like to hear both sides of the story :)09:27
Rafikelkbuntu: Yes. I don't trust on MaWaLe's motivations anymore. That's why I removed my testimonial.09:27
RafikI mean, motivations for being here in the ubuntu world09:28
alibbi can say that MaWaLe, has chown very good teeam work and has very good technical back ground , i'am sure he will help the tunisian locoteam to buid our web server, as well as our tunisian mirror09:28
elkbuntuRafik, it would be biased to accept positive reasoning if we were not to accept negative reasoning. if you feel comfortable enough that your reasoning is sound, feel free to share it.09:28
elkbuntuif you would like to bounce it off me first, my PM is open to you09:29
amachuelkbuntu: PM?09:30
elkbuntuamachu, sure09:30
MaWaLe I call Rafik to give evidence of his statements: I think it is more convenient than starting on the basis of assumptions.09:30
amachuMaWaLe: and I am awaiting your reply for the question posted by TheMuso09:30
MaWaLesorry : what question?09:31
amachuMaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?09:31
MaWaLeokay : it's still in a project standing09:31
MaWaLewe have to focus on creating the association to have a legal status in Tunisia09:32
MaWaLeso I preferred to delay the project for the next phase09:32
RafikI'l give you one example from here : http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html09:33
TheMusoFair enough.09:33
Rafik<MaWaLe> en r�alit� je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool09:33
Rafiki haven't installed ubuntu yet09:33
Rafikhis wikipage : exclusively Ubuntu user since 3 years.09:33
karimtnHello every body09:33
Rafikdon't make sense..09:33
RafikI'll not talk about some other things he made that created trouble09:34
elkbuntuMaWaLe, which is true, the logs saying you havent installed ubuntu, or your wikipage that says you have?09:34
persiaMaWaLe, Well, had you installed Ubuntu in July?09:35
persiaAlso, could you explain the discrepancy?09:35
Rafikhere too, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/29/%23ubuntu-tn.html , just to avoid saying it was a joke09:35
MaWaLein my  job i'm obliged to have Windows09:36
MaWaLea political choice09:36
MaWaLei'm a Government Emlployee09:36
MaWaLeon my laptop it was installed before july09:36
elkbuntuMaWaLe, we dont begrudge using other systems, but you seem to be making mockery of ubuntu09:36
MaWaLemockery : how?09:37
elkbuntuMaWaLe, saying you contribute to fedora but have never installed ubuntu09:37
elkbuntuit's in two seperate logs rafik has showed us09:37
nizaruselkbuntu: the log is of july 200809:37
persiaWell, even that would be fine in July, with the background to now, but it's the difference between this and the wiki page that is concerning.09:37
nizarusin that date MaWaLe joined oure loco and he was presenting him self09:38
elkbuntunizarus, the wikipage claims 3 years09:38
MaWaLei'm user of ubuntu at home09:39
MaWaLenot at work09:39
elkbuntunizarus, 6mths is significantly shorter than 3 years09:39
MaWaLeyou can verify my commands on ship-it09:39
MaWaLeso in my work, i never install Ubuntu because the political strategy of the government is to have Windows installed09:40
MaWaLebut at home i'm a linus user09:40
MaWaLeand sorry for asking the question : when Rafik made the testimonial, he was'nt aware of what he's saying now?09:41
amachuit appeared good for me, till we had this little tussle09:41
amachuMaWaLe: Rafik : Can't you solve this within Team Tunisia09:41
persiaMaWaLe, Use only at home is fine.  The question is really why the log and the wiki page differ?09:41
RafikMaWaLe: Indeed. Things came to mind after trouble, unfortunate.09:42
Rafikamachu: i'm afraid no.09:42
MaWaLebecause when rafik asks me the question, he saw in the whois wommands that i'm on a windows OS09:42
nizarusamachu: this issue is for our LoCo we got a long discussion with boredandblogging about it09:42
nizarusand it's definitely internal to our LoCo09:43
amachuwell, I would like to say this is on Mawale application for Membership..09:43
amachuand if there is some sort of tussle within the Team, and that cannot be resolved, then LoCo Council would be place to report09:44
persiaI'll agree to that: I don't think it's the RMB's place to take a position on who is right and who is wrong, etc.09:45
persiaI don't mean to look into the details of the ubuntu-tn issues.09:45
nizarus+1 persia thx09:45
alibbelkbuntu, amachu, persia   all i know is MaWaLe is defending ubuntu during FOSS and presentation. whats happening betwing Rafik and MaWaLe are internal affair , hope you will juge on the personal value not on when he seems to use ubuntu and what the personal problems with rafik09:45
persiaI really just want to understand the discrepancy between the IRC log and the wiki page.09:45
TheMusopersia: seconded.09:46
elkbuntualibb, this isnt about his dispute with rafik, this is about him exaggerating to get our favour. membership is as much trust as anything else09:46
MaWaLethe log refer to the use of Ubuntu in my work09:46
MaWaLewith the Government09:46
persiaalibb, I'd be happy approving membership for someone who first encountered Ubuntu three months ago, as long as they had been doing stellar contributions since then: it's not about time, it's about two places with conflicting information.09:47
MaWaLemy wiki page refers to me : at home09:47
elkbuntualibb, could i trust someone who lied to me to make themselves seem better, with the Ubuntu name?09:47
Rafikalibb: remember the server story too...09:47
MaWaLeelkbuntu: i 'm not lying and i'm clear in my tolds09:49
MaWaLethe logs refer to the use of ubuntu in my job and not my personal use of ubuntu09:49
elkbuntuMaWaLe, you use fedora in your job then, not windows?09:50
MaWaLeno : in my job with the Government i use Windows09:50
elkbuntusince those same logs refer to you being a fedora contributor09:50
MaWaLebefore i was a user for RH and Fedora09:50
elkbuntuat work?09:50
MaWaLeand i think that it was what i said in my wiki page09:50
MaWaLeno at home09:51
MaWaLeat work : i repeat again that it's a politcal stratagy of the government09:51
amachuOne can contribute to both Fedora or Ubuntu. I don't think thats an obstacle for membership.09:52
MaWaLeand i'm trying hardly to change the mind of my superior to use Linux and specially Ubuntu09:52
nizarusamachu: i'm an RHCE and ubuntu member too09:52
MaWaLeIn any case I think I have demonstrated my commitment with the LoCo with all the activities that I have with it09:52
alibbi am a sun isv09:53
alibband use opensolaris and ubuntu at work09:53
amachunizarus: thats fine.09:54
amachuRafik: the thing is that you donot back MaWaLe now? isn't it?09:54
RafikI think he don't deserve membership.09:55
amachuRafik: ok09:55
amachunizarus: your stand?09:55
nizarusamachu: i know MaWaLe since july 08 and i confirm he apport to oure tunisian commitee09:56
nizarusand i confirm that he wil be a very good ubuntu member09:56
amachuMaWaLe: your opinion on contradictory stands elkbuntu & persia pointed out?09:57
MaWaLei explained clearely that there is no contradiction in fact09:59
elkbuntuamachu, he's given a reason, but given the actual log which flows as "are you an ubuntero?" "no, i'm a fedora contributor. i havent installed ubuntu. but since it's linux" is adequate enough to explain09:59
elkbuntuis not*09:59
MaWaLethe logs refer to the use of Windows at work and i think that the wiki spokes for me and not for the professional who i'm09:59
elkbuntunot adequate enough09:59
MaWaLei haven't the ubuntu installed at work so i cannot have a GPG key to sign the code of conduct10:01
elkbuntuMaWaLe, it seems to say you had fedora installed though.10:01
MaWaLeand before the july, i didn't contribute with ubuntu because there wasn't a group to work with10:01
elkbuntuso unless you expect me to believe that in consecutive lines, you were at home *then* seconds later at work...10:02
nizaruselkbuntu: where is that log pleas ?10:02
MaWaLei have fedora + SuSe + NetBSD installed on virtual machines and peoples who was present in the events can confirm that i have many OSs installed to test the difference10:02
elkbuntunizarus, the ones rafik gave10:02
nizaruselkbuntu: i don't see the two lines that you montionned10:03
persia"je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu, mais du moment que c'est du Linux" is the confusing statement.10:03
Rafiknizarus: http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html (search for "fedora")10:04
elkbuntunizarus, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html10:04
elkbuntu<Rafik> (si tu as signé le code de conduite)10:04
elkbuntu<MaWaLe> en r�alit� je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool10:04
elkbuntu<MaWaLe> je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu10:04
elkbuntu<MaWaLe> mais du moment que c'est du Linux10:04
persiaThis clearly implies some sort of Linux (not Windows-at-work), yet not having installed Ubuntu.10:04
elkbuntupersia, which is contradictory to what we're being told, yes?10:04
MaWaLeRafik came to my office and he saw what I have on my PC10:05
persiaFrom a community-support perspective, I'm happy.  From an activity perspective, I'm happy.  This difference and the confusing explanations bother me.10:05
MaWaLeand he can confirm that in my office i have Windows and no linux10:05
nizarusthx elkbuntu10:05
elkbuntupersia, i agree with you 100%10:05
TheMusoI'd have to agree also.10:05
persiaThe problem is how to move forward from here.10:06
nizaruspersia: simple looking to the future :)10:06
persiaI very much don't want to say "MaWaLe" will always have this hanging over, causing an issue, but as it's not a case of "get more support" or "do more", I'm not sure what is the right advice.10:06
alibb+1 nizarus10:06
amachu_nizarus: what responsibilty Rafik holds with Team Tunisia10:07
elkbuntuamachu, they kicked him out10:07
persianizarus, Surely: it's just determining a future path: currently at least three of the members of the RMB are uncomfortable confirming membership: we need to determine what would be required to get membership in the future.10:07
amachu_isn't Rafiq a member?10:08
nizarushe was one of our active members with a lot of responsabilitys (web&tech, redactor, etc..)10:08
elkbuntuamachu, he is10:08
amachu_well I would say, a good atmosphere isn't prevailing right now..10:09
persiaamachu, elkbuntu TheMuso: suggestions on how to resolve this?10:09
TheMusopersia: I am as stumped as you.10:09
nizaruselkbuntu: it was a vote, because rafik refused to work with the team and preferred to work lonely10:09
Rafiknizarus: assumptions :)10:10
amachu_nizarus: Hope you are the Team Contact?10:10
elkbuntunizarus, i've also been told of a sabotage10:10
nizarusamachu_ yes i am10:10
nizaruselkbuntu: i will happy to talk with you about this in future10:10
elkbuntunizarus, which of course, was untrue10:10
amachu_Rafik: You agree MaWaLe hs made contributions barring that incident?10:11
elkbuntunizarus, this is relevent to now though10:11
=== asac_ is now known as asac
nizaruselkbuntu: here we are for MaWaLe membership not the Tunisian LoCo issue :/10:11
Rafikamachu_: yes, just wondering why.10:11
elkbuntunizarus, this incident involved mawale accusing rafik of sabotage, yes?10:12
alibb+1 nizarus10:12
alibbno elkbuntu ,  I confirm10:12
persianizarus, Right.  Like I said before, we don't really want to explore that.  It's more that we need to determine a way forward in this case, and there are doubts, perhaps related, so we might explore it some whilst we develop a plan for the future.10:12
nizaruselkbuntu: Rafik accused all the LoCo of sabotaging him10:12
elkbuntualibb, you confirm what?10:12
Rafikelkbuntu: in fact, MaWaLe said alibb sabotaged the server10:13
Rafikto accuse me..^^10:13
MaWaLei'd neveer said that rafik10:13
amachu_Well, I believe its't the right atmosphere10:13
alibbRafik, this is not the issue !10:13
MaWaLeand i think that Rafik is here just to take revenge10:13
elkbuntualibb, to us, it is, and you want us to make a decision10:13
elkbuntuMaWaLe, there is a bit of that, but what he has raised are genuinely and concerning10:14
alibbelkbuntu, we are talking about MaWaLe membership not on internal tunisian locotems problems10:14
elkbuntualibb, please do not tell me what is relevent to my decision making10:15
amachu_alibb: yes. But that is causing a concern on membership too.10:15
persiaalibb, Right.  The difference between the IRC log and the wiki page is unrelated to the tunisian team internal issues.10:15
alibbsorry elkbuntu10:15
MaWaLeelkbuntu: i think that a commitment for evaluating a membership must be based on the involvment of the applyant10:15
persia(or at least the RMB interest is unrelated)10:15
elkbuntuMaWaLe, this is part of your involvement whether or not you want it to be10:15
MaWaLeand i think that with the activities i'm holding with my LoCo i'm demonstrating my involvment10:15
elkbuntuMaWaLe, we cant look only at the good things, we have to look at the bad things too10:15
amachu_MaWaLe: True. I missed your reply on contradictory statements10:15
MaWaLenow if you think that we are here to talk about loco problems, it's up to you10:16
persiaAlso, membership includes the right to represent the Ubuntu project, which is something where conflicting statements are very concerning.10:16
elkbuntuI cannot in good conscience give mawale anything but a 010:16
persiaelkbuntu, Any ideas as to what MaWaLe might do to get approval later?10:16
elkbuntupersia, be more honest10:16
MaWaLemore honest ?????10:17
persiaOK.  How can we measure this?10:17
elkbuntupersia, by facts being supportable. by not telling us one thing while evidence says another10:17
persiaelkbuntu, So you'd be happy with a straight story, regardless of what was on the wiki in the past?10:18
MaWaLei think that i bring a facts today to the RMB members with my activities10:18
MaWaLeand Rafik bring tolds and logs and nnot facts10:18
amachu_this is tough, since we have contact of a LoCo team saying in favour of a new candidature10:18
elkbuntupersia, yes. i prefer clear honesty and i believe in second (and sometimes third) chances10:18
MaWaLeso if you thins i'm not honest i cannot accept it10:18
amachu_nizarus: do you have something to say on the conflicting statements?10:19
elkbuntuMaWaLe, rafik did not fake those logs. those logs not even I can touch10:19
persiaTheMuso, Would that also work for you?10:19
amachu_I would like to take a stand based on that10:19
MaWaLei explain that it was a misunderstanding and not a contradiction10:19
nizarusamachu_: i resumed this in my last talk10:19
TheMusopersia: I don't know to be honest. I don't feel we clearly know what the log is indicating, (noting I haven't read it myself fully)10:20
amachu_i got off for a while.. could you please repeat10:20
MaWaLebut sorry to say that : elkbuntu, you said that i'm not honest and i cannot accept that10:20
elkbuntuMaWaLe, then prove me wrong. you have not so far.10:20
nizaruswhen MaWaLe joined us he activly participated and participating to the team activites10:20
persiaTheMuso, Understood.  Assuming that there was no discrepancy between logs and wiki pages, would you accept a new application?10:20
amachu_Well, I would go by the Team Contact, though there may be conflicts with Rafik10:21
TheMusopersia: As long as everything was clearly stated, and clearly identified as to who it was from, most probably.10:21
nizarusfor our youn loco it's the more important : having activ members with the group not lonley members10:21
persiaSo, I propose the following for RMB votes:10:22
persiaErr, missed one.10:22
persiaMaWaLe, Do you understand the source of the discomfort by the RMB members?10:22
Rafiknizarus: the same loco i was bleeding to maintain and keep together :)10:22
persiaPlease: let's try to not rehash too much LoCo stuff :)10:22
MaWaLesorry persia : the last time when you explain me that i must have more visibility i understand it10:22
MaWaLebut i cannot accept to be considered as a non honest people10:23
persiaMaWaLe, Indeed, and you've gotten that visibility, for which I must congratulate you.10:23
MaWaLeall that rafik said and bring was to take revenge for his dismission10:23
elkbuntuMaWaLe, the logs do not show revenge10:23
persiaI'm specifically not claiming that you're not honest: I just don't feel confident in my own understanding of the discrepancies between the IRC logs and your wiki pages.10:24
amachu_dismission should have been the last resort..10:24
MaWaLeelkbuntu: the acts of rafik shows that revenge10:24
elkbuntuMaWaLe, yes, but also concern, and i understand that concern and agree with that concern10:24
persiaMaWaLe, So, LoCo issues aside, the issue for me is really that in one place you appear to claim to have started using Ubuntu in July, and in another claim to have started using it in 2005.10:25
amachu_I would go with the statements of nizarus than Rafik since he is, even at this point the Tunisian Team LoCo contact10:25
elkbuntuMaWaLe, revenge is to a degree why we support ubuntu. it is not itself a sin.10:25
persiaMaWaLe, I'm certain this is just oversight or confusion, and that it can be resolved, but I want to make sure you understand that source of discomfort.10:25
nizarusthx amachu_10:25
MaWaLethx persia for the explanation10:26
elkbuntui thought alibb introduced himself as the contact of the tunisian team?10:26
=== Rafik_ is now known as Rafik
elkbuntuno, contact. my eyes are tired10:26
MaWaLebut i think that my doing demonstrate y involvment and that it was the first referer to the evaluation of a membership10:26
nizarusno elkbuntu10:27
elkbuntuerrr. member. my brain is tried too10:27
alibbno elkbuntu i just said i am an tunisian loco member10:27
nizarusokay elkbuntu :))10:27
persiaMaWaLe, Yes, involvement is the primary concern, and you've clearly demonstrated that.10:27
MaWaLeand i continue my involvment in planning events for ubuntu?10:27
persiaEssentially, I have little confidence you'll be approved this evening.10:28
MaWaLebut what are Rafik doing for Ubuntu??? that's the real question10:28
persiaMaWaLe, Please: that's a separate issue: let's keep them apart.10:28
nizarusMaWaLe: it's not the place to ask this question :)10:28
MaWaLeokay persia10:28
persiaSo, If you could review all the sources of claims you can, and revise the wiki page that there is no confusion, we'd love to have you back next week.10:28
amachu_Rafik: Thanks for your concerns that a right candidate should deserve membership and you came out here and sahred your thoughts10:28
persiaIf you're unsure, feel free to contact any of us in the meantime, and have us take a look for things: I'm sure we'd be happy to help explain whether it is sufficient.10:29
amachu_Rafik: Consider settling this down with your Team.10:29
persiaEveryone good with that?10:29
TheMusopersia: +110:29
elkbuntupersia, +110:30
amachu_persia: I am not in a situation to give +1 for MaWaLe10:30
amachu_Would prefer 010:30
persiaamachu_, Are you comfortable with the plan I outlined above?10:30
amachu_persia: revising the wiki page?10:30
elkbuntuamachu_, this is the 'action plan' vote, not the membership vote10:30
MaWaLesorry persia for saying that but simply revising the wiki page didn't resolv the problem10:31
amachu_elkbuntu: yes. +110:31
persiaamachu_, Yes: revising the wiki page, perhaps in collaboration with RMB members, and revisiting the meeting.10:31
elkbuntuamachu_, generally 'getting your facts straight'10:31
MaWaLei can omit to mention in the wiki page the date of beginning of use of ubuntu10:31
MaWaLeshould i be more "honest" if i do that?10:31
persiaamachu_, OK.  What other issue do you have that needs to be resolved before we can approve MaWaLe ?10:31
Rafikamachu_: I'll finish my exams on O1/15. Then I'll officially contact the loco council it.10:31
persiaMaWaLe, Let's ignore "honesty", let's instead call it "consistency".10:32
Rafikdon't had time lately because of preparation for exams10:32
MaWaLebut consistency can be revised now if you want10:32
elkbuntuMaWaLe, i have to work tomorrow, i dont have the time to wait10:32
MaWaLeso all the troubles come from the "3 years" that i mention it on the wiki10:32
amachu_Rafik: I have to trust nizarus more than you. There can be internal principles of a LoCo Team which decided upon how its members should be or not10:33
persiaMaWaLe, We're already overtime on the meeting, unfortunately, but thank you.  We just need to confirm this will resolve all the issues.10:33
MaWaLei was speaking for my personal use of ubuntu and not professional and it's bizarre but it was rafik who told me to put that on my wiki page10:33
persiaMaWaLe, Not the "three years", but the discrepancy.  We like consistency: it makes it easier for us.10:33
elkbuntuMaWaLe, you were speaking of your professional use of fedora too?10:33
amachu_MaWaLe: Please show up next week. Hope you will get it through.10:33
amachu_And best wishes.10:34
MaWaLethx for all of you10:34
persiaamachu_, : Again, is there anything other than a revising of the wiki page to match other sources that you'd need to approve MaWaLe ?10:34
MaWaLeand persia can i ask you to assist me to do that please10:34
persiaMaWaLe, Certainly.10:35
amachu_I should say, I just asked whether there are people to support MaWaLe at IRC at it turned down things ;-)10:35
amachu_till then it was +110:35
persiaSo no other issues you want to see resolved?10:35
elkbuntui'm done for the night10:35
amachu_MaWaLe: hoping to meet you again and Best wishes10:36
MaWaLethx amachu_10:36
persiaMaWaLe, Apologies for the inconvenience: let's discuss over the next week, and with luck you will have success next week, or the week after, depending on your schedule.10:36
amachu_fine, moving on to the next thing that I was supposed to share, I do not have new nominations right now for the Board expansion10:37
amachu_any one else has?10:37
MaWaLeit'll be fine for the next week because the week after i'll be at the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)10:37
amachu_persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso ?10:37
* persia has been reviewing some IRC logs, but hasn't made as much progress as was hoped.10:37
elkbuntuamachu_, i have someone in mind, but i havent had chance to ask them first10:37
TheMusoamachu_: None here.10:38
amachu_fine, We shall take it up in mailing list then or at the next meeting10:38
amachu_anything else to be discussed?10:39
persiaReminder, next week is 15:00 UTC, assuming the room is open.10:39
* TheMuso can't make 15:00UTC.10:39
elkbuntunor i10:39
amachu_lets hope lifeless and belutz joins10:40
amachu_whats zakame is dormant10:40
elkbuntuand the week after that, someone will need to ring me on my phone and remind me, as i'll be at Linux Conf Au10:40
amachu_ring you?10:40
* persia suspects lifeless, also being in UTC+11, won't make it either.10:40
amachu_i shall mind messaging you though10:41
elkbuntuamachu_, on my phone, and pray i hear it over the awesomeness10:41
elkbuntuamachu_, i have calendar on my phone, i just have to remember to look at it10:42
amachu_you can mail me.. I will remind..10:42
elkbuntuTheMuso, are you LCA'ing?10:42
TheMusoelkbuntu: no.10:42
amachu_is that all?10:42
elkbuntuamachu_, yeah10:42
amachu_Shall we wind up for the day?10:43
elkbuntuTheMuso, know if lifeless is or not?10:43
TheMusoelkbuntu: He may, but I don't know for sure.10:43
amachu_Thank you everyone for participating. Our next meeting 13 Jan 09, 15.00 UTC10:43
elkbuntuamachu_, thanks, bye10:43
ubottuInformation about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)13:53
yann2!utc time13:53
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about utc time13:53
ubottuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: January 06 2009, 13:59:00 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 hours 0 minutes13:56
Piciyann2: ^13:56
yann2thanks :)13:57
yann2time for servermeeting is wrong according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting13:57
persiaIsn't is 16:00 UTC?14:33
=== ember_ is now known as ember
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team
* mathiaz waves15:58
sommerhey all15:59
* zul waves15:59
mathiazlet's get started16:00
MootBotMeeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.16:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:01
mathiazWelcome the very first meeting of the Server Team in the fabulious year 2039!16:01
mathiazhow is everyone doing?16:01
nijabaGreat! Happy new year *16:02
sommererr 203916:02
jdstrand \o16:02
mathiaztoday's amazing agenda can be read online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting16:04
zulin the year 2000....in the year 200016:04
mathiaz^^ is this accurate?16:04
mathiazzul: has this been discussed last time?16:05
sorenNo, it's not the year 2000.16:05
nijabamathiaz: please note that I just updated the agenda to remove what was discussed last time16:05
sorenSo that's highly inaccurate.16:05
mathiaznijaba: ah ok. Thanks!16:05
zulmathiaz: no it wasnt discussed16:05
mathiazso last meetings minutes can be found at:http://people.ubuntu.com/~chucks/mootbot.txt16:06
mathiaz[TOPIC] Screen Profiles16:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Screen Profiles16:06
mathiazwhat's up with that?16:06
persiaSomeone probably wants to update the text to say "From 16:00 to 17:00 UTC" as well.16:07
kirklandmathiaz: i owe several people merges16:07
kirklandmathiaz: and i need to address the concerns that Riddell raised about adding to the archive16:07
mathiazpersia: hm yes. Thanks for pointing this out16:07
kirklandmathiaz: i'm going to spend sometime on this today16:08
jdstrandkirkland: are these concerns in a bug somewhere?16:08
mathiazis there a wiki page to keep track of this work?16:08
mathiaznealmcb: there was an action item related to a wiki page16:08
Riddelljdstrand: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2008-December/023487.html16:09
Riddelltrivial to fix16:09
jdstrandheh, ok16:09
jdstrandRiddell: thanks16:09
kirklandRiddell: thanks, i was digging for that ;-)16:09
nealmcbmathiaz: right - I'll update the wiki if there is news16:09
kirklandjdstrand: yeah, it's trivial, i just havent gotten to it16:09
mathiaznealmcb: what's the wiki page url?16:10
ubottuUbuntu server does not install a desktop environment or X11 by default in order to enhance security, efficiency and performance.  !eBox provides a GUI system management option via a web interface.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI for more background and options.16:10
nealmcbmathiaz: that is where I put a simple heads-up link to the screen stuff.  but it should have its own page too16:11
mathiaznealmcb: ah ok! seems like a good plan16:11
mathiazkirkland: what do you mean by owing several people merges?16:12
mathiazkirkland: are you refering to screen only?16:12
kirklandmathiaz: i'd like to talk more about screen-profiles next week, once i've merged more of the contributions16:12
mathiazkirkland: or other packages too16:12
kirklandmathiaz: no, the screen-profiles package16:12
kirklandmathiaz: nijaba has done a lot of work16:12
nijabakirkland: yes, and I plan to do some more as time permits :)16:13
kirklandmathiaz: also, nxvl has a proposed merge16:13
kirklandmathiaz: this work will continue to be sort of spare-time, community driven16:13
nijabakirkland: nxvl fix was already done in my branch16:13
kirklandmathiaz: as dendrobates has indicated that this isn't Canonical work (really)16:13
mathiazkirkland: great.16:14
mathiazkirkland: it seems that there is some good feedback from the community16:14
kirklandmathiaz: i've been pleased with the response16:14
mathiazkirkland: is there some plan to enable this by default?16:14
kirklandmathiaz: i'm hoping to get it included into main, and on the server cd16:14
kirklandmathiaz: i'm hoping the first time you run screen, you'll select your screen profile16:15
mathiazkirkland: a similar experience to the default editor choice?16:15
kirklandmathiaz: i'm also hoping that utility will give you an option of turning it "on by default" on a per user basis16:15
kirklandmathiaz: precisely16:15
=== discoflux is now known as afflux
nealmcbspeaking of guis and ebox (as ubottu reminds us), I sent a message just now to foolano about helping with an SRU, based on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/25536816:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]16:16
kirklandnijaba: your thoughts?16:16
jdstrandkirkland: that sounds like the way to go to me. on for everyone by default sounds risky.16:16
mathiazkirkland: how many profiles do you plan to have?16:16
nijabakirkland: I think it could be set up by default...16:16
kirklandmathiaz: no target number ... i will say that most of the contributions/suggestions i've gotten so far have been changes to the initial default profile i set up16:17
kirklandmathiaz: i sort of expected people to create brand new profiles and submit those16:17
kirklandmathiaz: but it hasn't really worked out that way, for better or worse16:17
kirklandmathiaz: no matter, i'm perfectly happy having only 1 or 2, if they're good ;-)16:18
kirklandmathiaz: also, nijaba and i have been working on modularizing the profile itself16:18
mathiazkirkland: yes. May be was is needed to have a default profile rather then having multiple profiles to choose from16:18
kirklandmathiaz: so it works more like adding "applets" to your gnome task bars16:18
mathiazkirkland: ie provide a best-practice profile.16:18
nijabakirkland: I am still working on the kb equivalent part16:18
mathiazkirkland: allright - all of this seems great.16:19
kirklandmathiaz: have you seen/used it at all yet?16:19
mathiazkirkland: nope - I'm just back from UDS :)16:19
kirklandactually, open question for the team ... has anyone used it yet?16:19
sommerkirkland: me16:19
kirklandUDS was a month ago :-)16:19
sommerkirkland: might be an older version though16:19
nealmcbkirkland: yes, briefly16:19
kirklandmathiaz: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/ubuntu-server-includes-window-manager.html16:20
mathiazkirkland: ok - if you have some more ideas to work on, I'd suggest to write up a wiki page for that.16:20
mathiazkirkland: so that people could help out in implementation16:20
kirklandmathiaz: good idea16:21
mathiazkirkland: so to summarize, you'll upload a new package soon16:21
mathiazkirkland: and work will continue to improve the profiles16:21
kirklandmathiaz: agreed.16:21
mathiazkirkland: trying to implement a concept similar to a task bar in screen16:22
kirklandmathiaz: right, notifications being very important16:22
mathiaz[ACTION] kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package16:22
MootBotACTION received:  kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package16:22
mathiazkirkland: could you setup a wiki page to outline this task (taskbar in screen)?16:22
kirklandmathiaz: i'll make it more general than that, but yes16:23
mathiaz[ACTION] kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen16:23
MootBotACTION received:  kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen16:23
mathiazkirkland: great - thanks!16:23
kirklandmathiaz: the hardest part has been agreeing upon hotkeys16:23
mathiazlet's move on.16:23
mathiaz[TOPIC] review KVM page refactoring16:23
MootBotNew Topic:  review KVM page refactoring16:24
kirklandmathiaz: choosing things that don't conflict with other stuff16:24
nijabakirkland: hence the modularization I am working on16:24
mathiaznijaba: what's the state on that?16:24
mathiazsommer: ^^16:24
nijabamathiaz: if everything goes well, whould be ready EOW16:24
mathiaznijaba: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM ?16:24
nijabamathiaz: oh, on KVM --> Done16:24
mathiaznijaba: ^^ this is what you've refactored?16:25
nijabadid it over the vacations16:25
mathiaznijaba: there is still a note that says WIP on the wiki page16:25
sommeroh woops, was I supposed to help with that?16:25
mathiazsommer: oh. Not necessarly16:25
mathiazsommer: just that you're a documentation guru16:26
nijaba"#This is still work in progress! Feel free to jump in and extend this documentation! "?16:26
mathiaznijaba: yes16:26
mathiaznijaba: if the work is over, should this note be removed?16:26
nijabamathiaz: even though I refactored it, the content can still be extended16:26
mathiaznijaba: right - that's always the case with a wiki16:27
nijabamathiaz: the note has almost always been there...16:27
mathiaznijaba: oh ok. I thought you added it when you were working on refactoring the page.16:27
nijabamathiaz: not this one :)16:27
nijabasoren, what do people think of it?16:28
=== Zic_ is now known as Zic
nijabaerr, not soren, so...16:28
mathiaznijaba: well - we could remove it if the pages seem complete enough16:28
nijabamathiaz: sure16:28
sorennijaba: Oh, good, because I have no idea :)16:28
mathiaznijaba: done.16:29
mathiaznijaba: ok - so it seems that this task has been completed now.16:29
nijabamathiaz: yes, and I moved it away from the roadmap to the report16:29
mathiaznijaba: great - thanks!16:30
mathiazlet's move on16:30
mathiaz[TOPIC] SRU for ebox16:30
MootBotNew Topic:  SRU for ebox16:30
mathiaznealmcb: ^^?16:30
mathiazsommer: ^?16:30
zulI have a look at it, just need a couple of corrections done to the changelog and should be uploaded this week16:30
mathiazzul: did you get an ACK from the motu-sru team?16:31
sommeralso the packages are in my ppa if anyone wants to do more testing :)16:31
mathiazzul: which version are you going to upload?16:31
zulmathiaz: not yet bugs need to be opened for the issues that we have, the patches have been backported from the ppa to the ones in the archive sommer can tell you what he did16:32
nealmcbzul cool!16:32
mathiazsommer: hm - so you've backported the ldap fix?16:33
sommerbasically the apache-authcookie code has been embedded into the new ebox version, and there's some updates for gconf and dbus in intrepid16:33
sommermathiaz: yep, that too16:33
mathiazsommer: ok - that's seems the best option for an SRU16:33
mathiazsommer: only two packages to fix.16:33
nealmcbsommer/zul can you point to the ppa from that bug report?16:33
zul3 packages to fix16:33
sommer3, ebox, libebox, and ebox-usersandgroups16:33
mathiazsommer: it seems that you've touched the minimal number of packages16:33
nealmcband have either of you talked to foolano about this?16:34
sommermathiaz: I also tested the rest and they seem to work fine16:34
zulnealmcb: no i havent16:34
sommernealmcb: nope, I meant to ping him on IRC, but I did't run into any huge issues16:34
mathiazsommer: ok - so it seems we have package ready.16:35
zulthere is also a request to get the newer ebox in jaunty, if someone from the community want to get on it that would be great16:35
mathiazwhat's the next step?16:35
sommermathiaz: I think file some bugs and subscribe the sru team?16:35
mathiazsommer: right. Now that the patches are ready, we can file specific bugs about them.16:36
mathiazwe'll also have to upload the new version of ebox to jaunty.16:36
sommermathiaz: I should have that done this afternoon or this evening16:36
sommermathiaz: what's the process for jaunty?16:37
mathiaz[ACTION] sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.16:37
MootBotACTION received:  sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.16:37
mathiazsommer: we need to get the new packages from foolano and review them.16:37
mathiaznealmcb: did you get feedback from him?16:38
nealmcbbut I just wrote him, so getting a note in the bug report would get him up to date16:38
mathiaznealmcb: which bug report are you refering to?16:38
nealmcbwhy are new bug reports needed?16:38
nealmcbSet above....16:39
zulfor the ldap change and the gconfd changes16:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]16:39
nealmcbok but they are mentioned I think in the bug or its dups16:39
persiaIf there are already bugs, repurposing is preferred, as it makes it easier for the SRU team to see that it's fixed-in-jaunty16:39
nealmcbsee the dups also e.g. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/27348616:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New]16:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]16:41
mathiazhm - ok.16:41
mathiazso bug 255368 is about one change16:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25536816:42
mathiazas zul mentionned there are two others changes needed to fix ebox in intrepid16:42
nealmcbright but the other one lists the ldap issue16:43
nealmcbnot sure about gconfd16:43
zulnealmcb: the gconfd change is needed because gconfd changed to dbus in intrepid16:43
mathiaznealmcb: right - bug 273486 lists the ldap change16:43
ubottuLaunchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27348616:43
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25536816:43
mathiazzul: is there  a bug about that?16:44
zulmathiaz: not yet sommer will be doing it tonight I believe16:44
mathiazzul: ok.16:45
mathiaz[ACTION] sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.16:45
MootBotACTION received:  sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.16:45
mathiazsommer: bug 255368 should be use to outline the fix for the authentification16:45
sommerI'm confused, do we also need a bug about the authcookie thing and ldap?16:45
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25536816:45
sommermathiaz: gotcha that works16:46
mathiazsommer: and bug 273486 should be marked unduplicated and be used to outline the change for the ldap fix16:46
ubottuLaunchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27348616:46
nealmcbahh - sounds good16:47
mathiazsommer: bug 273486 makes a reference to dnsguardian16:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27348616:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25536816:47
mathiazsommer: have you run into this issue?16:47
sommermathiaz: no, the dansgaurdian stuff is only in the ebox ppa version16:49
mathiazsommer: ok. great then.16:49
sommermathiaz: not what's currently in intrepid... at least I think16:49
mathiaz[ACTION] sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change16:49
MootBotACTION received:  sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change16:49
ubottuLaunchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27348616:49
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25536816:49
mathiaz[ACTION] sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.16:50
MootBotACTION received:  sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.16:50
mathiazsommer: as a reminder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates outlines the procedure16:50
sommermathiaz: cool thanks16:50
mathiazsommer: and the format to use when creating/updating bugs for a SRU16:50
* yann2 back for discussion about webarchitecture, if time permits later (sorry i was away)16:50
mathiazsommer: so I think we have a plan for ebox SRU in intrepid.16:51
sommermathiaz: yeppers16:51
mathiazOTOH we'll also have to update the version in jaunty16:51
mathiazbefore having it fixed in intrepid.16:52
zuli can do that this afternoon16:52
zulwhile waiting for mysql to finish16:52
mathiazzul: great - 0.12.6 seems to be available from the PPA16:52
mathiazzul: you may wanna get in touch with upstream to see which one they suggest to upload to jaunty16:53
zulmathiaz: will do16:53
mathiazzul: or at least the latest stable.16:54
mathiaz[ACTION] zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.16:54
MootBotACTION received:  zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.16:54
mathiazlet's move on.16:55
mathiaz[TOPIC] WebArchitecture -16:55
MootBotNew Topic:  WebArchitecture -16:55
mathiazyann2: Isn't that a support issue rather than a development issue?16:55
yann2Hello - as I tried to explain in my small page on the wiki16:55
yann2mathiaz > no, i don't think so16:55
mathiazyann2: the link doesn't work16:56
yann2basically the main issue is that we (ubuntu) run all the php apps  under the user www-data16:56
yann2and that we rely on mod_php and on php security features to get a feeling of security16:57
mathiazyann2: right - there has been some discussion to provide mod_fcgid in main16:57
yann2things like safe_mode, that won't get supported in php6 anyway16:57
yann2mmh, I didnt know about that.16:57
mathiazyann2: that's what was suggested by the security team and ivoks16:57
yann2but fastcgi, cgid, mod_itk or whatever -16:57
mathiazyann2: it hasn't happend yet however.16:58
yann2php, python and otherwebapps really should run under their own user16:58
yann2right, I am glad someone put the topic up before me :) where could I contact them?16:58
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team
mathiazyann2: right. So I'll defer this discussion to the next meeting as we're running out of time16:58
mathiazyann2: ivoks is interested in that16:58
* persia hopes for an "Open Discussion" item.16:59
mathiazyann2: https://launchpad.net/~ivoks16:59
mathiazpersia: I'm sorry we won't have time16:59
yann2thanks mathiaz  I will contact him16:59
persiamathiaz, OK.  I'll put it on the agenda for next week.16:59
mathiazThe kernel team meeting is following16:59
mathiazpersia: please do.16:59
mathiazpersia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting16:59
mathiaz[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time17:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time17:00
mathiazNext week, same time, same place?17:00
mathiazallright then - see you all next week, same time, same place.17:01
mathiazand happy hacking on 9.04!17:01
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:01.17:01
pgranerHello All... Time for the kernel team meeting...17:01
MootBotMeeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.17:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:01
* apw is here17:01
* smb_tp too17:01
* cking too17:01
rtgcking: ext4 support for grub! way to go.17:02
ckingrtg: it was nothing really17:02
pgranercking is at it again I see....17:02
rtgnow, if we can get the installer guys to offer it as an option.17:03
rtgcking: did you get that uploaded?17:03
pgraner[TOPIC] Security and SRU kernels17:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Security and SRU kernels17:04
pgranersmb_tp: how do things look?17:04
smb_tpI got the kernel for the 8.04.2 uploaded in December. So far no big complains17:05
smb_tpNo security stuff at the moment17:05
pgranersmb_tp: according to the schedule Jan 14th is the date for the intrepid kernel, still good to go?17:06
smb_tpWhen I checked yesterday there were no new things queued in git. There might be one thing about the pauses17:07
smb_tpif we find out quick enough what of the millions of changes in 2.6.28 did the trick17:07
apw9.5k changes :(17:07
pgranersmb_tp: ok...17:08
rtgsmb_tp: are the pauses a regression?17:08
apwthere is that dell resume hang patch pending17:08
rtgI want the current -proposed Intrepid kernel propagated to -updates. so unless there is something _really_ important in the queue...17:09
smb_tpI go through that tomorrow, so we could trigger another upload before. If it is not too much a week in -proposed might do ok17:09
apwsmb_tp, is that the "need to press a key" to make boot work one?17:10
pgranersmb_tp: provided the fixes are small and isolated17:10
smb_tpapw, the one I was referring with pauses, yes17:10
rtgif its not a regression, then it can wait.17:10
* pgraner agrees17:10
smb_tpBut I am not very sure this can be found in the timeframe until the 14th. Maybe for the next upload17:11
smb_tpIt is a long standing regression from hardy17:11
smb_tpbut only on some systems17:11
rtgsmb_tp: there is no reason we can't commit the fix (if found). just don't upload yet.17:11
smb_tpmostly hp17:11
smb_tprtg, sure.17:12
apwi have had questions about the dell resume fix, as in when is it going to make it, it got missed in rtg's sweep up of pending patches over the break17:12
smb_tpBut isolating will take time given that I don't have such a system. So it all goes through test kernels and user tests17:12
rtgapw: what Dell resume fix?17:13
smb_tpapw, it is in git?17:13
apwsmb_tp, yep been in there a few days17:13
apwrtg its a dri restore fix for i915 on later hardware17:13
smb_tpapw ah ok, saw it17:13
rtgapw: it must not have been there the last time I uploaded17:14
apwyeah it was out on our mailing list, but slipped through fingers in your sweep when we were off17:14
apwjust bad luck17:14
rtgapw: ok, it'll get into -proposed right after the current kernel is propagated17:15
pgranerOk... anything else for this topic?17:15
smb_tprtg, I would say, we promote -proposed to -updates then upload this one and get it promoted to -updates before the 14th. Would that be ok with you?17:15
rtgsmb_tp: possibly, but we'll have to work with pitti and slangasek on that.17:16
smb_tprtg, Sure. I will talk to him pitty tomorrow about that17:16
pgraner[TOPIC] Jaunty Status17:17
MootBotNew Topic:  Jaunty Status17:17
pgranerWe have several milestones due prior to Alpha317:17
rtgJaunty is looking OK, despite some installer issues.17:17
rtgcking has a grub patch for ext4 support, so we can boot native.17:18
pgraner* Removal of ACPI method of suspend.17:18
pgraner* Update of the wiki page on how to use the new suspend/resume test framework17:18
rtgwhats that?17:18
pgraner* Review of the debugging suspend/resume wiki17:19
pgraner* Initial cut of the susupend resume script shipped in A317:19
smb_tpSound like the list from UDS17:19
pgranerBenC has the ACPI bits. He couldn't make the the meeting so I'll get him to follow up to the mailing list.17:19
sconklinapw and I have independently been working at bits of this17:20
pgraner[ACTION] pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal17:20
MootBotACTION received:  pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal17:20
apwwe have most of the bits of the scripting, sconklin you and i need to get together and shoce the two halves together17:20
sconklinapw: right, pgraner, you can assign that to us17:20
pgranerapw: when do you think you'll get the wiki page up with decent info?17:20
pgraner[ACTION] apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume17:21
MootBotACTION received:  apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume17:21
sconklinI can help with that as well17:21
apwonce we have the basic script dynamics done that should be easy to complete17:21
apwyep, then we can review the rest of the stuff to make sure it makes sense and links to this new info17:21
pgranerapw: I'll leave that action with you. When done publish to the disto-team & kernel-team mailing lists17:21
pgraner[ACTION] apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed17:22
MootBotACTION received:  apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed17:22
sconklinI'll check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases17:22
sconklinWe should, to make this work17:22
pgranerThose are the big ticket items for A3 anything else?17:22
pgraner[ACTION] sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases17:23
MootBotACTION received:  sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases17:23
pgranerAnything else on this topic17:24
pgranerOk moving on then...17:25
pgraner[TOPIC] ARM Tree17:25
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Tree17:25
pgraneramkitk is still on holiday... so we won't have much to say. rtg can you bring us up to speed17:25
pgranerwhat what you have going on17:26
rtgno changes since Amit went on holiday. I hope to get an ARM platform today so I can at least fix the build problems.17:26
apwany sign of a porter?17:26
rtgsupposedly the DC has hardware...17:27
pgranerrtg: I'll confirm that it was shipped to you today17:27
pgraner[ACTION] pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today17:27
MootBotACTION received:  pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today17:27
rtgI think you also ought to ask where the porters are?17:27
pgraner[ACTION] pgraner to find out porter status17:27
MootBotACTION received:  pgraner to find out porter status17:28
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting
pgraner[TOPIC] Open discussion...17:29
MootBotNew Topic:  Open discussion...17:29
pgranerAnyone have any items they wish to discuss/ bring up?17:29
apwnothing i can think of17:29
rtgI have not read Scott's analysis. are boot times improving?17:30
apwyeah looked like 5s overall17:30
apw5s out of like 25 iirc17:30
pgranerapw: how much was kernel?17:30
rtgwhat about the 18 sec that pitti claims?17:30
pgranerapw: or was it all kernel17:30
* pgraner hasn't read either17:30
Keybukrtg: what did pitti change for that?17:30
apwmostly from the modules being builtin17:30
Keybukpgraner: kernel changes don't seem to make the kernel init take any longer17:31
rtgKeybuk: just the built in PATA/SATA17:31
Keybukwhile reducing userspace by ~5s17:31
ckingI'd like to know how it performs using an SSD17:31
rtgKeybuk: I think he also skipped initramfs17:31
Keybukah, I may have built the reversion just before that commit ;)17:31
Keybukcking: my tests are all done on SSD17:31
ckingKeybuk: great17:32
Keybukrtg: yeah, your commit to build in the drivers was done just after I did the checkouts yesterday to build17:32
rtgI was a bit nervous about it, so I delayed.17:33
rtgI think all of the components are now built in that allow us to skip initramfs.17:34
rtgat least on the generic PC17:34
apwbasically the uuid issue is the only thing outstanding17:35
rtgapw: right, we have to decide if its grub or the kernel that gets changed for that. I vote kernel.17:35
ckingrtg: me too17:35
apwit feels like something we can do there pretty cheap17:36
ckingit's generic and will work for grub 0.97, grub 2 etc17:36
pgranercking: what are the downsides?17:36
rtgits likely something we could get pushed upstream as well17:36
ckingpgraner: none - it's far easier to do it in kernel space than in grub17:37
apwrtg, when looking to do that  we might consider if 'id' rather than 'uuid' is simpler in kernel17:37
rtgI'm not sure I understand the difference17:38
* pgraner either17:38
* cking neither too17:38
apwi thought id was only info in the sense page17:38
apwand uuid could be more deeply tied to the partition contents17:39
apwand as such one was cheaper than the other17:39
apwas in /dev/disk/by-id rather than by-uuid17:39
rtgI'm sure that uuid is tied to the partition as well as the file system on that partition.17:39
ckingapw: you are right there. uuid has to be extracted from the partition - but it varies per file system17:39
=== ember_ is now known as ember
Keybukif you mean by "id" what I think you mean, you don't want that17:40
KeybukUUID= and LABEL= are the two useful options17:40
Keybukwhich both refer to filesystem metadata17:40
Keybukif you move the filesystem with dd, or rearrange disks, etc. the UUID/LABEL *follow* the move17:40
Keybukwhich is pretty much the entire point17:40
rtgthats exactly what I like most about UUID17:41
apwthey are differnt levels of protection for different levels of cost17:41
ckingthe UUID is fs specific, so getting this info out of each fs will require work on each fs driver17:42
* apw muses that we might be able to use a 'id' as a hint as to where to check the 'uuid' to speed loading17:42
Keybukcan't grub just pass a hint to the kernel?17:43
Keybuksince it's already doing the work of finding the filesystem with the given UUID?17:43
apwwhen does grub do anything with uuid's?17:44
ckingKeybuk: grub can do this - it's not a big deal17:44
rtgcking: what kind of hint would grub pass?17:45
ckingapw: grub scans each partition and extracts the UUID and resolves this down to the BIOS drive mapping17:45
ckinggrub only knows the device and partition number - this needs to be mapped to (hdX,Y) - which I am unsure about17:45
ckingand it does not work for all know file systems17:46
* apw detects detail overload17:47
rtgyeah - lets take this offline17:47
pgraner[ACTION] kernel team to work out the UUID issues17:48
MootBotACTION received:  kernel team to work out the UUID issues17:48
pgranerAnything else folks?17:48
liebnot from here17:48
pgraner[TOPIC] Next weeks meeting....17:49
MootBotNew Topic:  Next weeks meeting....17:49
pgranerSame bat time, same bat channel?17:49
apwworks for me17:49
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:49.17:49
pgranerThanks everyone17:49
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
=== RainCT_ is now known as RainCT
mdkehi sabdfl, Technoviking21:03
sabdflhello everybody21:03
sabdflmy firefox is crashing, can't see the agenda21:03
mdkeit's empty21:03
Technovikingsabdfl: did you file a bug :)21:03
sabdfli love this delegation thing21:04
sabdflTechnoviking: hoping apport will do it for me soon21:04
mdkeyes, the membership boards seem to be working well21:04
sabdflis there anything we'd like to discuss, now that we're here?21:05
sabdflhow are the IRC folks shaping up?21:05
* mdke doesn't know21:05
sabdfli haven't heard anything either way, since the flurry of activity21:06
sabdflwhen we made the last round of appointments21:06
* mdke nods21:06
sabdflTechnoviking: was there a decision at UDS about creating a "irc members" team?21:06
mdkeperhaps we can ask the IRC Council to report on progress in a few weeks once the new members have settled in21:06
Technovikingsabdfl: I believe so21:07
sabdflTechnoviking: a +1 or -1?21:07
sabdflsame for forums, right?21:07
mdkewhat would the team be made up of?21:08
sabdflnot necessarily, i think we should make it possible to be a respected contributor while not also shouldering ops21:08
mdkeso what's the point of the team? just recognition of contribution to irc?21:08
sabdflsame as the point for ubuntumembers :-)21:09
jpdsWe have an "official" operator team for #ubuntu at: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc21:09
sabdflcontribution to ubuntu through irc participation21:09
mdkeok, so it would be a subgroup of ubuntumembers21:09
sabdflyes, same as ubuntu-dev21:09
mdkeok, I suspect you can guess my opinion then :)21:10
sabdfl"send 'em to the regionals!"21:10
sabdfli hear you from here :-)21:11
mdkeyeah, I think ubuntu membership should be conferred by the membership boards21:11
sabdflfrom the perspective of "everyone who is interested", surely reporting is the key?21:11
mdkeI think there are lots of advantages to having the process centralised, now that the centralised process is running smoothly21:12
mdkeit's probably not the right time to rehash them though, I rant about them often enough21:12
sabdfldo you think someone should be an ubuntu-dev without being an ubuntumember?21:13
sabdfli'm just trying to get a sense of whether you think some of the existing functional-delegation bits are broken21:13
mdkeI'm in two minds whether -dev is a special case or not, I can see the practical convenience of the MOTU Council being able to push that through21:13
TechnovikingI know some people who like to contribute to Ubuntu without the pressure of being an Ubuntu member21:14
mdkeTechnoviking: that's perfectly possible, either way21:14
sabdflok, well, let21:15
mdkesabdfl: I certainly don't think anything is broken, I just think it would be better to have membership a centralised process21:15
sabdfl's not rehash it here21:15
Technovikingsome people are not joiner, for various reason21:15
mdke+1 for not rehashing the discussion :)21:15
sabdflis there anyone on the FC or IRC-C who is also on a regional membership board, i wonder?21:15
mdkeI'm happy to be in the minority21:15
sabdflto address consistency?21:15
mdkeMike :)21:16
mdkenot sure about the IRC-C21:16
alex_mayorgasabdfl: I'm an ubuntu-mx member in theory21:16
RafikI think elkbuntu is both in IRC-C and Asia Oceania RMB21:17
Technovikingwell, I think the regional board have a good feel for how the different area in Ubuntu work now, forums,irc, dev, loco, etc...21:17
mdkeRafik: good point21:17
sabdflso we have *some* cross coverage21:18
mdkeTechnoviking: yep, they definitely do. It's great to have a mix of backgrounds on those boards21:18
sabdflthat's enough for now, let's see how it goes, re-evaluate in a few months, or if it blows up21:18
sabdflbut for the moment, i'm happy21:18
mdkesabdfl: one point we could discuss is whether the existing meeting times for the CC are working, and whether the CC needs a new member to replace Jerome. That has been kicking around the mailing list for a while21:18
alex_mayorgaerr I'm on the Mexico loco, never mind21:18
Technovikingsabdfl: I think are working well, +121:19
sabdflmdke: what's not on the list are nominations :-)21:19
sabdflso let's start with times21:19
mdkesabdfl: that's your prerogative21:19
sabdfli'd like to have nominations from the existing CC to consider21:20
sabdfland would discuss them with the CC before proposing them formally21:20
mdkesabdfl: as I understand it, you make nominations. But we could discuss whether it's a good idea in principle to have another member on the CC21:20
sabdflyes, i'd like more, and more non-Canonical, ideally too21:20
sabdfllet's start with the times21:20
sabdflthe TB has stopped trying to cover all timezones21:20
sabdfli'm tempted...21:21
sabdfli don't know that our morning slot gets us much love in the far east, as it is21:21
sabdflwhat do you guys think?21:21
sabdflwould a single, day-us-evening-eu time, be better?21:21
alex_mayorgawhat are the other options?21:22
mdkeI don't really have a view, I've missed so many meetings recently so I don't have a feel for whether people would like different times21:22
Technovikingsabdfl: That would work for me, maybe we can be flexible for issues in other timezones21:22
mdkeI know that I can only make -eu evenings, but I suspect that other members of the CC wouldn't be able to make that time so easily21:22
sabdflalex_mayorga: if we're going to pick a time, we should try to pick one that covers as many tz's as possible21:23
sabdflwhich usually means evening eu21:24
sabdflgiven that we're the "buck stops here" point, it seems wrong to have a blanket policy that flat-out doesn't work for someone in australia21:25
alex_mayorgamorning us works as longs as it is possible to access from behind corporate firewalls, I for one are behind one at that time with no IRC21:25
sabdflwe did the regional groups to avoid that21:25
mdkeyeah, I agree. I think two times is reasonable, and we should be able to cover those with members in different TZs21:25
mdkeespecially if we add a new member or more than one21:26
Seeker`i dont think it is possible to get reasonable worldwide coverage with 1 fixed time21:26
sabdflso that would suggest nominations from asiapac, especially, with a plan to do earlier in the morning eu + asia, and evening eu + usa21:26
mdkeyes, although I guess the nominations shouldn't necessarily be conditional on TZ21:27
sabdflwell, we are replacing jerome21:27
sabdflok, i'll ask now that we talk on the list about candidates21:28
sabdfli';m not going to do a wider call for them21:28
sabdflanything else?21:28
Technovikingnothing here21:28
mdkesabdfl: does the TB have enough members? I recall reading about a call for nominations, but that must be a couple of releases back21:29
sabdflwe have two candidates, i will o ahead and nominate21:29
sabdflwanted more to do a bakeoff21:29
Technovikingmdke: I know Matt Z was feeling over worked on the TB21:29
sabdflthanks all!21:30
sabdflnight night21:30
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
PrivateVoidstill about three hours until the meeting23:44
PrivateVoidI think23:44
ubottuSchedule for Etc/UTC: 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team23:47
PrivateVoidwoah... lots of schedules23:48
drubinI think it is also the topic23:48
robb_mdrubin: you're correct.23:51
robb_mits in the topic.23:51
robb_mubottu changes the topic accordingly :)23:51
ubottuError: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)23:51

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