[02:57] <Technoviking> evening all
[09:00] <amachu> hi
[09:01] <MaWaLe> hi
[09:01] <amachu> TheMuso: elkbuntu : persia : lifeless : Hi
[09:01] <amachu> MaWaLe: Welcome
[09:01] <TheMuso> Hi amachu.
[09:01] <persia> Hey!
[09:01] <MaWaLe> thx amachu
[09:02] <amachu> elkbuntu: TheMuso : lifeless : are you people there?
[09:02] <elkbuntu> hi
[09:02] <elkbuntu> sorry the past few weeks, i was travelling
[09:02] <amachu> elkbuntu: Hi
[09:02] <TheMuso> amachu: Yes I am here.
[09:03] <amachu> cool!
[09:03] <amachu> and lifeless?
[09:03] <nizarus> elkbuntu: travelling in Tunisia (irc channel) :p
[09:03] <amachu> We miss zakame and belutz again
[09:03] <elkbuntu> nizarus, huh?
[09:04]  * persia opens https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
[09:05] <elkbuntu> i'm trying to deal with a troublemaker in -ops, so my responses will be slow
[09:05] <amachu> fine..
[09:05] <elkbuntu> yay, relieved of that
[09:06] <amachu> we shall start
[09:06] <TheMuso> Our candidate is not here it seems, or at least not in channel.
[09:06] <MaWaLe> i'm here :-/
[09:06] <persia> Well, the other isn't.
[09:06] <amachu> TheMuso: MaWaLe is present
[09:07] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, so, what have you done in the time since we last saw you?
[09:07] <TheMuso> Sorry misread.
[09:07] <MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i participated to the ENIS EVENT 8.12 and actually planning the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)
[09:08] <elkbuntu> could you explain what ENIS is?
[09:08] <MaWaLe> ENIS : Ecole NAtionale des Ingénieurs à Sfax : National School of Engineers at Sfax
[09:09] <elkbuntu> and what happens at it?
[09:09] <MaWaLe> we held two conf'days and migrate the labs of the ENIS to Ubuntu
[09:09] <amachu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/EventENIS is in Tunisian. request you to explain a bit more
[09:09] <MaWaLe> i also animate an install party for the technical staff and the students there
[09:10] <nizarus> amachu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/TeamReporting#ENIS%20Event%208.12
[09:11] <MaWaLe> In  this event, I promote Ubuntu and hold a conference about Ubuntu and his use.
[09:11] <MaWaLe> The ENIS EVENT 9.01 leads to migrate over than 1000 PCs and Laptops to Ubuntu and to provide assistance to the technical staff of the Tunisian National School of Engineers.
[09:12] <amachu> what kind of assistance do you provide after migration?
[09:12] <MaWaLe> it'll be a 3 days conference (23, 24 and 25th january)
[09:13] <MaWaLe> assistance for using Ubuntu for novice users, technical support, documentation
[09:14] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, what sort of assistance? on-site? phone?
[09:14] <MaWaLe> phone, mailing, skype and live meetings
[09:15] <MaWaLe> i'm in constant contact whith the person in charge for the labs that we migrate
[09:16] <MaWaLe> i always take part to the FST Conf'Day
[09:16] <MaWaLe> in this day i present Ubuntu and the virtualization under ubuntu
[09:17] <elkbuntu> if 2009 will be 1000 computers, how many were in 2008?
[09:18] <MaWaLe> about 300 i think
[09:18] <elkbuntu> nice
[09:18] <MaWaLe> and this time there's a pics to illustrate my tolds :)
[09:19] <elkbuntu> any other board have questions for mawale?
[09:20] <elkbuntu> TheMuso, persia?
[09:20]  * TheMuso reads the wiki page again to make sure he hasn't missed anything...
[09:20] <persia> MaWaLe, I notice that your wiki page recently has a removal of an endorsement: do you know why this happened, and could you explain the change?
[09:20] <elkbuntu> amachu, questioned out?
[09:21] <amachu> MaWaLe: are there people here live to say few words about you now
[09:21] <amachu> persia: TheMuso: ?
[09:21] <TheMuso> MaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?
[09:22] <MaWaLe> amachu: it's due to the dismission of Rafik from the management Committee
[09:23] <MaWaLe> and the removal of the testimonial was made few minutes ago
[09:24] <amachu> MaWaLe: I am asking, are there members here right now at IRC
[09:24] <elkbuntu> nizarus, can you back up mawale's story?
[09:24] <MaWaLe> there nizarus
[09:24] <nizarus> hi :)
[09:24] <alibb> i am tunisian loco team member
[09:24] <alibb> hi every one
[09:25] <elkbuntu> alibb, is what mawale says about rafik true?
[09:25] <amachu> ye
[09:25] <amachu> persia: are you there?
[09:25] <nizarus> in our LoCo we got some troubles and rafik decided to leave the LoCo
[09:25] <persia> amachu, Yes.
[09:25] <MaWaLe> last modification of the wiki page :  06.01.2009 09:11:47 by rafik
[09:26] <elkbuntu> nizarus, was this trouble a fight with mawale and rafik?
[09:26] <alibb> elkbuntu,  yes MaWaLe and nizarus words are true
[09:26] <nizarus> as he have a point of view different from all the LoCo
[09:26] <elkbuntu> Rafik, are you around?
[09:26] <nizarus> so I confirm my testimonials for MaWaLe
[09:27] <elkbuntu> Rafik, we like to hear both sides of the story :)
[09:27] <Rafik> elkbuntu: Yes. I don't trust on MaWaLe's motivations anymore. That's why I removed my testimonial.
[09:28] <Rafik> I mean, motivations for being here in the ubuntu world
[09:28] <alibb> i can say that MaWaLe, has chown very good teeam work and has very good technical back ground , i'am sure he will help the tunisian locoteam to buid our web server, as well as our tunisian mirror
[09:28] <elkbuntu> Rafik, it would be biased to accept positive reasoning if we were not to accept negative reasoning. if you feel comfortable enough that your reasoning is sound, feel free to share it.
[09:29] <elkbuntu> if you would like to bounce it off me first, my PM is open to you
[09:30] <amachu> elkbuntu: PM?
[09:30] <elkbuntu> amachu, sure
[09:30] <MaWaLe>  I call Rafik to give evidence of his statements: I think it is more convenient than starting on the basis of assumptions.
[09:30] <amachu> MaWaLe: and I am awaiting your reply for the question posted by TheMuso
[09:31] <MaWaLe> sorry : what question?
[09:31] <amachu> MaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?
[09:31] <MaWaLe> okay : it's still in a project standing
[09:32] <MaWaLe> we have to focus on creating the association to have a legal status in Tunisia
[09:32] <MaWaLe> so I preferred to delay the project for the next phase
[09:33] <Rafik> I'l give you one example from here : http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html
[09:33] <TheMuso> Fair enough.
 en r�alit� je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool
[09:33] <Rafik> i haven't installed ubuntu yet
[09:33] <Rafik> his wikipage : exclusively Ubuntu user since 3 years.
[09:33] <karimtn> Hello every body
[09:33] <Rafik> don't make sense..
[09:34] <Rafik> I'll not talk about some other things he made that created trouble
[09:34] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, which is true, the logs saying you havent installed ubuntu, or your wikipage that says you have?
[09:35] <persia> MaWaLe, Well, had you installed Ubuntu in July?
[09:35] <persia> Also, could you explain the discrepancy?
[09:35] <Rafik> here too, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/29/%23ubuntu-tn.html , just to avoid saying it was a joke
[09:36] <MaWaLe> in my  job i'm obliged to have Windows
[09:36] <MaWaLe> a political choice
[09:36] <MaWaLe> i'm a Government Emlployee
[09:36] <MaWaLe> on my laptop it was installed before july
[09:36] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, we dont begrudge using other systems, but you seem to be making mockery of ubuntu
[09:37] <MaWaLe> mockery : how?
[09:37] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, saying you contribute to fedora but have never installed ubuntu
[09:37] <elkbuntu> it's in two seperate logs rafik has showed us
[09:37] <nizarus> elkbuntu: the log is of july 2008
[09:37] <persia> Well, even that would be fine in July, with the background to now, but it's the difference between this and the wiki page that is concerning.
[09:38] <nizarus> in that date MaWaLe joined oure loco and he was presenting him self
[09:38] <elkbuntu> nizarus, the wikipage claims 3 years
[09:39] <MaWaLe> i'm user of ubuntu at home
[09:39] <MaWaLe> not at work
[09:39] <elkbuntu> nizarus, 6mths is significantly shorter than 3 years
[09:39] <MaWaLe> you can verify my commands on ship-it
[09:40] <MaWaLe> so in my work, i never install Ubuntu because the political strategy of the government is to have Windows installed
[09:40] <MaWaLe> but at home i'm a linus user
[09:40] <MaWaLe> s/linus/linux
[09:41] <MaWaLe> and sorry for asking the question : when Rafik made the testimonial, he was'nt aware of what he's saying now?
[09:41] <amachu> it appeared good for me, till we had this little tussle
[09:41] <amachu> MaWaLe: Rafik : Can't you solve this within Team Tunisia
[09:41] <persia> MaWaLe, Use only at home is fine.  The question is really why the log and the wiki page differ?
[09:42] <Rafik> MaWaLe: Indeed. Things came to mind after trouble, unfortunate.
[09:42] <Rafik> amachu: i'm afraid no.
[09:42] <MaWaLe> because when rafik asks me the question, he saw in the whois wommands that i'm on a windows OS
[09:42] <nizarus> amachu: this issue is for our LoCo we got a long discussion with boredandblogging about it
[09:43] <nizarus> and it's definitely internal to our LoCo
[09:43] <amachu> well, I would like to say this is on Mawale application for Membership..
[09:44] <amachu> and if there is some sort of tussle within the Team, and that cannot be resolved, then LoCo Council would be place to report
[09:45] <persia> I'll agree to that: I don't think it's the RMB's place to take a position on who is right and who is wrong, etc.
[09:45] <persia> I don't mean to look into the details of the ubuntu-tn issues.
[09:45] <nizarus> +1 persia thx
[09:45] <alibb> elkbuntu, amachu, persia   all i know is MaWaLe is defending ubuntu during FOSS and presentation. whats happening betwing Rafik and MaWaLe are internal affair , hope you will juge on the personal value not on when he seems to use ubuntu and what the personal problems with rafik
[09:45] <persia> I really just want to understand the discrepancy between the IRC log and the wiki page.
[09:46] <TheMuso> persia: seconded.
[09:46] <elkbuntu> alibb, this isnt about his dispute with rafik, this is about him exaggerating to get our favour. membership is as much trust as anything else
[09:46] <MaWaLe> the log refer to the use of Ubuntu in my work
[09:46] <MaWaLe> with the Government
[09:47] <persia> alibb, I'd be happy approving membership for someone who first encountered Ubuntu three months ago, as long as they had been doing stellar contributions since then: it's not about time, it's about two places with conflicting information.
[09:47] <MaWaLe> my wiki page refers to me : at home
[09:47] <elkbuntu> alibb, could i trust someone who lied to me to make themselves seem better, with the Ubuntu name?
[09:47] <Rafik> alibb: remember the server story too...
[09:49] <MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i 'm not lying and i'm clear in my tolds
[09:49] <MaWaLe> the logs refer to the use of ubuntu in my job and not my personal use of ubuntu
[09:50] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, you use fedora in your job then, not windows?
[09:50] <MaWaLe> no : in my job with the Government i use Windows
[09:50] <elkbuntu> since those same logs refer to you being a fedora contributor
[09:50] <MaWaLe> before i was a user for RH and Fedora
[09:50] <elkbuntu> at work?
[09:50] <MaWaLe> and i think that it was what i said in my wiki page
[09:51] <MaWaLe> no at home
[09:51] <MaWaLe> at work : i repeat again that it's a politcal stratagy of the government
[09:52] <amachu> One can contribute to both Fedora or Ubuntu. I don't think thats an obstacle for membership.
[09:52] <MaWaLe> and i'm trying hardly to change the mind of my superior to use Linux and specially Ubuntu
[09:52] <nizarus> amachu: i'm an RHCE and ubuntu member too
[09:52] <MaWaLe> In any case I think I have demonstrated my commitment with the LoCo with all the activities that I have with it
[09:53] <alibb> i am a sun isv
[09:53] <alibb> and use opensolaris and ubuntu at work
[09:54] <amachu> nizarus: thats fine.
[09:54] <amachu> Rafik: the thing is that you donot back MaWaLe now? isn't it?
[09:55] <Rafik> I think he don't deserve membership.
[09:55] <amachu> Rafik: ok
[09:55] <amachu> nizarus: your stand?
[09:56] <nizarus> amachu: i know MaWaLe since july 08 and i confirm he apport to oure tunisian commitee
[09:56] <nizarus> and i confirm that he wil be a very good ubuntu member
[09:57] <amachu> MaWaLe: your opinion on contradictory stands elkbuntu & persia pointed out?
[09:58] <MaWaLe> sorry?
[09:59] <MaWaLe> i explained clearely that there is no contradiction in fact
[09:59] <elkbuntu> amachu, he's given a reason, but given the actual log which flows as "are you an ubuntero?" "no, i'm a fedora contributor. i havent installed ubuntu. but since it's linux" is adequate enough to explain
[09:59] <elkbuntu> is not*
[09:59] <MaWaLe> the logs refer to the use of Windows at work and i think that the wiki spokes for me and not for the professional who i'm
[09:59] <elkbuntu> not adequate enough
[10:01] <MaWaLe> i haven't the ubuntu installed at work so i cannot have a GPG key to sign the code of conduct
[10:01] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, it seems to say you had fedora installed though.
[10:01] <MaWaLe> and before the july, i didn't contribute with ubuntu because there wasn't a group to work with
[10:02] <elkbuntu> so unless you expect me to believe that in consecutive lines, you were at home *then* seconds later at work...
[10:02] <nizarus> elkbuntu: where is that log pleas ?
[10:02] <MaWaLe> i have fedora + SuSe + NetBSD installed on virtual machines and peoples who was present in the events can confirm that i have many OSs installed to test the difference
[10:02] <elkbuntu> nizarus, the ones rafik gave
[10:03] <nizarus> elkbuntu: i don't see the two lines that you montionned
[10:03] <persia> "je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu, mais du moment que c'est du Linux" is the confusing statement.
[10:04] <Rafik> nizarus: http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html (search for "fedora")
[10:04] <elkbuntu> nizarus, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html
 (si tu as signé le code de conduite)
 en r�alit� je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool
 je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu
 mais du moment que c'est du Linux
[10:04] <persia> This clearly implies some sort of Linux (not Windows-at-work), yet not having installed Ubuntu.
[10:04] <elkbuntu> persia, which is contradictory to what we're being told, yes?
[10:04] <persia> Yes.
[10:05] <MaWaLe> Rafik came to my office and he saw what I have on my PC
[10:05] <persia> From a community-support perspective, I'm happy.  From an activity perspective, I'm happy.  This difference and the confusing explanations bother me.
[10:05] <MaWaLe> and he can confirm that in my office i have Windows and no linux
[10:05] <nizarus> thx elkbuntu
[10:05] <elkbuntu> persia, i agree with you 100%
[10:05] <TheMuso> I'd have to agree also.
[10:06] <persia> The problem is how to move forward from here.
[10:06] <nizarus> persia: simple looking to the future :)
[10:06] <persia> I very much don't want to say "MaWaLe" will always have this hanging over, causing an issue, but as it's not a case of "get more support" or "do more", I'm not sure what is the right advice.
[10:06] <alibb> +1 nizarus
[10:07] <amachu_> nizarus: what responsibilty Rafik holds with Team Tunisia
[10:07] <elkbuntu> amachu, they kicked him out
[10:07] <persia> nizarus, Surely: it's just determining a future path: currently at least three of the members of the RMB are uncomfortable confirming membership: we need to determine what would be required to get membership in the future.
[10:08] <amachu_> isn't Rafiq a member?
[10:08] <nizarus> he was one of our active members with a lot of responsabilitys (web&tech, redactor, etc..)
[10:08] <elkbuntu> amachu, he is
[10:09] <amachu_> well I would say, a good atmosphere isn't prevailing right now..
[10:09] <persia> amachu, elkbuntu TheMuso: suggestions on how to resolve this?
[10:09] <TheMuso> persia: I am as stumped as you.
[10:09] <nizarus> elkbuntu: it was a vote, because rafik refused to work with the team and preferred to work lonely
[10:10] <Rafik> nizarus: assumptions :)
[10:10] <amachu_> nizarus: Hope you are the Team Contact?
[10:10] <elkbuntu> nizarus, i've also been told of a sabotage
[10:10] <nizarus> amachu_ yes i am
[10:10] <nizarus> elkbuntu: i will happy to talk with you about this in future
[10:10] <elkbuntu> nizarus, which of course, was untrue
[10:11] <amachu_> Rafik: You agree MaWaLe hs made contributions barring that incident?
[10:11] <elkbuntu> nizarus, this is relevent to now though
[10:11] <nizarus> elkbuntu: here we are for MaWaLe membership not the Tunisian LoCo issue :/
[10:11] <Rafik> amachu_: yes, just wondering why.
[10:12] <elkbuntu> nizarus, this incident involved mawale accusing rafik of sabotage, yes?
[10:12] <alibb> +1 nizarus
[10:12] <alibb> no elkbuntu ,  I confirm
[10:12] <persia> nizarus, Right.  Like I said before, we don't really want to explore that.  It's more that we need to determine a way forward in this case, and there are doubts, perhaps related, so we might explore it some whilst we develop a plan for the future.
[10:12] <nizarus> elkbuntu: Rafik accused all the LoCo of sabotaging him
[10:12] <elkbuntu> alibb, you confirm what?
[10:13] <Rafik> elkbuntu: in fact, MaWaLe said alibb sabotaged the server
[10:13] <Rafik> to accuse me..^^
[10:13] <MaWaLe> i'd neveer said that rafik
[10:13] <amachu_> Well, I believe its't the right atmosphere
[10:13] <alibb> Rafik, this is not the issue !
[10:13] <MaWaLe> and i think that Rafik is here just to take revenge
[10:13] <elkbuntu> alibb, to us, it is, and you want us to make a decision
[10:14] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, there is a bit of that, but what he has raised are genuinely and concerning
[10:14] <alibb> elkbuntu, we are talking about MaWaLe membership not on internal tunisian locotems problems
[10:15] <elkbuntu> alibb, please do not tell me what is relevent to my decision making
[10:15] <amachu_> alibb: yes. But that is causing a concern on membership too.
[10:15] <persia> alibb, Right.  The difference between the IRC log and the wiki page is unrelated to the tunisian team internal issues.
[10:15] <alibb> sorry elkbuntu
[10:15] <MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i think that a commitment for evaluating a membership must be based on the involvment of the applyant
[10:15] <persia> (or at least the RMB interest is unrelated)
[10:15] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, this is part of your involvement whether or not you want it to be
[10:15] <MaWaLe> and i think that with the activities i'm holding with my LoCo i'm demonstrating my involvment
[10:15] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, we cant look only at the good things, we have to look at the bad things too
[10:15] <amachu_> MaWaLe: True. I missed your reply on contradictory statements
[10:16] <MaWaLe> now if you think that we are here to talk about loco problems, it's up to you
[10:16] <persia> Also, membership includes the right to represent the Ubuntu project, which is something where conflicting statements are very concerning.
[10:16] <elkbuntu> I cannot in good conscience give mawale anything but a 0
[10:16] <persia> elkbuntu, Any ideas as to what MaWaLe might do to get approval later?
[10:16] <elkbuntu> persia, be more honest
[10:17] <MaWaLe> more honest ?????
[10:17] <persia> OK.  How can we measure this?
[10:17] <elkbuntu> persia, by facts being supportable. by not telling us one thing while evidence says another
[10:18] <persia> elkbuntu, So you'd be happy with a straight story, regardless of what was on the wiki in the past?
[10:18] <MaWaLe> i think that i bring a facts today to the RMB members with my activities
[10:18] <MaWaLe> and Rafik bring tolds and logs and nnot facts
[10:18] <amachu_> this is tough, since we have contact of a LoCo team saying in favour of a new candidature
[10:18] <elkbuntu> persia, yes. i prefer clear honesty and i believe in second (and sometimes third) chances
[10:18] <MaWaLe> so if you thins i'm not honest i cannot accept it
[10:19] <amachu_> nizarus: do you have something to say on the conflicting statements?
[10:19] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, rafik did not fake those logs. those logs not even I can touch
[10:19] <persia> TheMuso, Would that also work for you?
[10:19] <amachu_> I would like to take a stand based on that
[10:19] <MaWaLe> i explain that it was a misunderstanding and not a contradiction
[10:19] <nizarus> amachu_: i resumed this in my last talk
[10:20] <TheMuso> persia: I don't know to be honest. I don't feel we clearly know what the log is indicating, (noting I haven't read it myself fully)
[10:20] <amachu_> i got off for a while.. could you please repeat
[10:20] <MaWaLe> but sorry to say that : elkbuntu, you said that i'm not honest and i cannot accept that
[10:20] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, then prove me wrong. you have not so far.
[10:20] <nizarus> when MaWaLe joined us he activly participated and participating to the team activites
[10:20] <persia> TheMuso, Understood.  Assuming that there was no discrepancy between logs and wiki pages, would you accept a new application?
[10:21] <amachu_> Well, I would go by the Team Contact, though there may be conflicts with Rafik
[10:21] <TheMuso> persia: As long as everything was clearly stated, and clearly identified as to who it was from, most probably.
[10:21] <nizarus> for our youn loco it's the more important : having activ members with the group not lonley members
[10:21] <persia> Right.
[10:22] <persia> So, I propose the following for RMB votes:
[10:22] <persia> Err, missed one.
[10:22] <persia> MaWaLe, Do you understand the source of the discomfort by the RMB members?
[10:22] <Rafik> nizarus: the same loco i was bleeding to maintain and keep together :)
[10:22] <persia> Please: let's try to not rehash too much LoCo stuff :)
[10:22] <MaWaLe> sorry persia : the last time when you explain me that i must have more visibility i understand it
[10:23] <MaWaLe> but i cannot accept to be considered as a non honest people
[10:23] <persia> MaWaLe, Indeed, and you've gotten that visibility, for which I must congratulate you.
[10:23] <MaWaLe> all that rafik said and bring was to take revenge for his dismission
[10:23] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, the logs do not show revenge
[10:24] <persia> I'm specifically not claiming that you're not honest: I just don't feel confident in my own understanding of the discrepancies between the IRC logs and your wiki pages.
[10:24] <amachu_> dismission should have been the last resort..
[10:24] <MaWaLe> elkbuntu: the acts of rafik shows that revenge
[10:24] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, yes, but also concern, and i understand that concern and agree with that concern
[10:25] <persia> MaWaLe, So, LoCo issues aside, the issue for me is really that in one place you appear to claim to have started using Ubuntu in July, and in another claim to have started using it in 2005.
[10:25] <amachu_> I would go with the statements of nizarus than Rafik since he is, even at this point the Tunisian Team LoCo contact
[10:25] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, revenge is to a degree why we support ubuntu. it is not itself a sin.
[10:25] <persia> MaWaLe, I'm certain this is just oversight or confusion, and that it can be resolved, but I want to make sure you understand that source of discomfort.
[10:25] <nizarus> thx amachu_
[10:26] <MaWaLe> thx persia for the explanation
[10:26] <elkbuntu> i thought alibb introduced himself as the contact of the tunisian team?
[10:26] <elkbuntu> no, contact. my eyes are tired
[10:26] <MaWaLe> but i think that my doing demonstrate y involvment and that it was the first referer to the evaluation of a membership
[10:26] <elkbuntu> sorry
[10:27] <nizarus> no elkbuntu
[10:27] <elkbuntu> errr. member. my brain is tried too
[10:27] <alibb> no elkbuntu i just said i am an tunisian loco member
[10:27] <nizarus> okay elkbuntu :))
[10:27] <persia> MaWaLe, Yes, involvement is the primary concern, and you've clearly demonstrated that.
[10:27] <MaWaLe> and i continue my involvment in planning events for ubuntu?
[10:28] <persia> Essentially, I have little confidence you'll be approved this evening.
[10:28] <MaWaLe> but what are Rafik doing for Ubuntu??? that's the real question
[10:28] <persia> MaWaLe, Please: that's a separate issue: let's keep them apart.
[10:28] <nizarus> MaWaLe: it's not the place to ask this question :)
[10:28] <MaWaLe> okay persia
[10:28] <persia> So, If you could review all the sources of claims you can, and revise the wiki page that there is no confusion, we'd love to have you back next week.
[10:28] <amachu_> Rafik: Thanks for your concerns that a right candidate should deserve membership and you came out here and sahred your thoughts
[10:29] <persia> If you're unsure, feel free to contact any of us in the meantime, and have us take a look for things: I'm sure we'd be happy to help explain whether it is sufficient.
[10:29] <amachu_> Rafik: Consider settling this down with your Team.
[10:29] <persia> Everyone good with that?
[10:29] <TheMuso> persia: +1
[10:30] <elkbuntu> persia, +1
[10:30] <amachu_> persia: I am not in a situation to give +1 for MaWaLe
[10:30] <amachu_> Would prefer 0
[10:30] <persia> amachu_, Are you comfortable with the plan I outlined above?
[10:30] <amachu_> persia: revising the wiki page?
[10:30] <elkbuntu> amachu_, this is the 'action plan' vote, not the membership vote
[10:31] <MaWaLe> sorry persia for saying that but simply revising the wiki page didn't resolv the problem
[10:31] <amachu_> elkbuntu: yes. +1
[10:31] <persia> amachu_, Yes: revising the wiki page, perhaps in collaboration with RMB members, and revisiting the meeting.
[10:31] <elkbuntu> amachu_, generally 'getting your facts straight'
[10:31] <MaWaLe> i can omit to mention in the wiki page the date of beginning of use of ubuntu
[10:31] <MaWaLe> should i be more "honest" if i do that?
[10:31] <persia> amachu_, OK.  What other issue do you have that needs to be resolved before we can approve MaWaLe ?
[10:31] <Rafik> amachu_: I'll finish my exams on O1/15. Then I'll officially contact the loco council it.
[10:32] <persia> MaWaLe, Let's ignore "honesty", let's instead call it "consistency".
[10:32] <Rafik> don't had time lately because of preparation for exams
[10:32] <MaWaLe> but consistency can be revised now if you want
[10:32] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, i have to work tomorrow, i dont have the time to wait
[10:32] <MaWaLe> so all the troubles come from the "3 years" that i mention it on the wiki
[10:33] <amachu_> Rafik: I have to trust nizarus more than you. There can be internal principles of a LoCo Team which decided upon how its members should be or not
[10:33] <persia> MaWaLe, We're already overtime on the meeting, unfortunately, but thank you.  We just need to confirm this will resolve all the issues.
[10:33] <MaWaLe> i was speaking for my personal use of ubuntu and not professional and it's bizarre but it was rafik who told me to put that on my wiki page
[10:33] <persia> MaWaLe, Not the "three years", but the discrepancy.  We like consistency: it makes it easier for us.
[10:33] <elkbuntu> MaWaLe, you were speaking of your professional use of fedora too?
[10:33] <amachu_> MaWaLe: Please show up next week. Hope you will get it through.
[10:34] <amachu_> And best wishes.
[10:34] <MaWaLe> thx for all of you
[10:34] <persia> amachu_, : Again, is there anything other than a revising of the wiki page to match other sources that you'd need to approve MaWaLe ?
[10:34] <MaWaLe> and persia can i ask you to assist me to do that please
[10:35] <persia> MaWaLe, Certainly.
[10:35] <amachu_> I should say, I just asked whether there are people to support MaWaLe at IRC at it turned down things ;-)
[10:35] <amachu_> completely
[10:35] <amachu_> till then it was +1
[10:35] <persia> So no other issues you want to see resolved?
[10:35] <elkbuntu> i'm done for the night
[10:36] <amachu_> ok
[10:36] <amachu_> MaWaLe: hoping to meet you again and Best wishes
[10:36] <MaWaLe> thx amachu_
[10:36] <persia> MaWaLe, Apologies for the inconvenience: let's discuss over the next week, and with luck you will have success next week, or the week after, depending on your schedule.
[10:37] <amachu_> fine, moving on to the next thing that I was supposed to share, I do not have new nominations right now for the Board expansion
[10:37] <amachu_> any one else has?
[10:37] <MaWaLe> it'll be fine for the next week because the week after i'll be at the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)
[10:37] <amachu_> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso ?
[10:37]  * persia has been reviewing some IRC logs, but hasn't made as much progress as was hoped.
[10:37] <elkbuntu> amachu_, i have someone in mind, but i havent had chance to ask them first
[10:38] <TheMuso> amachu_: None here.
[10:38] <amachu_> fine, We shall take it up in mailing list then or at the next meeting
[10:39] <amachu_> anything else to be discussed?
[10:39] <persia> Reminder, next week is 15:00 UTC, assuming the room is open.
[10:39]  * TheMuso can't make 15:00UTC.
[10:39] <elkbuntu> nor i
[10:40] <amachu_> lets hope lifeless and belutz joins
[10:40] <amachu_> whats zakame is dormant
[10:40] <elkbuntu> and the week after that, someone will need to ring me on my phone and remind me, as i'll be at Linux Conf Au
[10:40] <amachu_> ring you?
[10:40]  * persia suspects lifeless, also being in UTC+11, won't make it either.
[10:41] <amachu_> i shall mind messaging you though
[10:41] <elkbuntu> amachu_, on my phone, and pray i hear it over the awesomeness
[10:41] <amachu_> Hmm..
[10:42] <elkbuntu> amachu_, i have calendar on my phone, i just have to remember to look at it
[10:42] <amachu_> you can mail me.. I will remind..
[10:42] <elkbuntu> TheMuso, are you LCA'ing?
[10:42] <TheMuso> elkbuntu: no.
[10:42] <amachu_> is that all?
[10:42] <elkbuntu> amachu_, yeah
[10:43] <amachu_> Shall we wind up for the day?
[10:43] <elkbuntu> TheMuso, know if lifeless is or not?
[10:43] <TheMuso> elkbuntu: He may, but I don't know for sure.
[10:43] <amachu_> Thank you everyone for participating. Our next meeting 13 Jan 09, 15.00 UTC
[10:43] <amachu_> Ciao!
[10:43] <elkbuntu> amachu_, thanks, bye
[10:43] <amachu_> :-)
[10:43] <TheMuso> thanks
[13:53] <yann2> mmh...
[13:53] <yann2> !time
[13:53] <yann2> !utc time
[13:53] <yann2> grm
[13:56] <Pici> @now
[13:56] <Pici> yann2: ^
[13:57] <yann2> thanks :)
[13:57] <yann2> time for servermeeting is wrong according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[14:33] <persia> Isn't is 16:00 UTC?
[15:58]  * mathiaz waves
[15:59] <sommer> hey all
[15:59] <kirkland> o/
[15:59]  * zul waves
[16:00] <nijaba> o/
[16:00] <mathiaz> let's get started
[16:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <nealmcb> o/
[16:01] <mathiaz> Welcome the very first meeting of the Server Team in the fabulious year 2039!
[16:01] <mathiaz> how is everyone doing?
[16:02] <nijaba> Great! Happy new year *
[16:02] <kirkland> \o/
[16:02] <sommer> err 2039
[16:02] <soren> o/
[16:02] <jdstrand>  \o
[16:04] <mathiaz> today's amazing agenda can be read online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:04] <zul> in the year 2000....in the year 2000
[16:04] <mathiaz> ^^ is this accurate?
[16:05] <mathiaz> zul: has this been discussed last time?
[16:05] <soren> No, it's not the year 2000.
[16:05] <nijaba> mathiaz: please note that I just updated the agenda to remove what was discussed last time
[16:05] <soren> So that's highly inaccurate.
[16:05] <mathiaz> nijaba: ah ok. Thanks!
[16:05] <zul> mathiaz: no it wasnt discussed
[16:06] <mathiaz> so last meetings minutes can be found at:http://people.ubuntu.com/~chucks/mootbot.txt
[16:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen Profiles
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Screen Profiles
[16:06] <mathiaz> what's up with that?
[16:07] <persia> Someone probably wants to update the text to say "From 16:00 to 17:00 UTC" as well.
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: i owe several people merges
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: and i need to address the concerns that Riddell raised about adding to the archive
[16:07] <mathiaz> persia: hm yes. Thanks for pointing this out
[16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to spend sometime on this today
[16:08] <jdstrand> kirkland: are these concerns in a bug somewhere?
[16:08] <mathiaz> is there a wiki page to keep track of this work?
[16:08] <mathiaz> nealmcb: there was an action item related to a wiki page
[16:09] <Riddell> jdstrand: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2008-December/023487.html
[16:09] <Riddell> trivial to fix
[16:09] <jdstrand> heh, ok
[16:09] <jdstrand> Riddell: thanks
[16:09] <kirkland> Riddell: thanks, i was digging for that ;-)
[16:09] <nealmcb> mathiaz: right - I'll update the wiki if there is news
[16:09] <kirkland> jdstrand: yeah, it's trivial, i just havent gotten to it
[16:10] <mathiaz> nealmcb: what's the wiki page url?
[16:10] <nealmcb> !servergui
[16:11] <nealmcb> mathiaz: that is where I put a simple heads-up link to the screen stuff.  but it should have its own page too
[16:11] <mathiaz> nealmcb: ah ok! seems like a good plan
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: what do you mean by owing several people merges?
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: are you refering to screen only?
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd like to talk more about screen-profiles next week, once i've merged more of the contributions
[16:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: or other packages too
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: no, the screen-profiles package
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: nijaba has done a lot of work
[16:13] <kirkland> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/screen-profiles
[16:13] <nijaba> kirkland: yes, and I plan to do some more as time permits :)
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: also, nxvl has a proposed merge
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: this work will continue to be sort of spare-time, community driven
[16:13] <nijaba> kirkland: nxvl fix was already done in my branch
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: as dendrobates has indicated that this isn't Canonical work (really)
[16:14] <mathiaz> kirkland: great.
[16:14] <mathiaz> kirkland: it seems that there is some good feedback from the community
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: i've been pleased with the response
[16:14] <mathiaz> kirkland: is there some plan to enable this by default?
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm hoping to get it included into main, and on the server cd
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm hoping the first time you run screen, you'll select your screen profile
[16:15] <mathiaz> kirkland: a similar experience to the default editor choice?
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'm also hoping that utility will give you an option of turning it "on by default" on a per user basis
[16:15] <kirkland> mathiaz: precisely
[16:16] <nealmcb> speaking of guis and ebox (as ubottu reminds us), I sent a message just now to foolano about helping with an SRU, based on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/255368
[16:16] <kirkland> nijaba: your thoughts?
[16:16] <jdstrand> kirkland: that sounds like the way to go to me. on for everyone by default sounds risky.
[16:16] <mathiaz> kirkland: how many profiles do you plan to have?
[16:16] <nijaba> kirkland: I think it could be set up by default...
[16:17] <kirkland> mathiaz: no target number ... i will say that most of the contributions/suggestions i've gotten so far have been changes to the initial default profile i set up
[16:17] <kirkland> mathiaz: i sort of expected people to create brand new profiles and submit those
[16:17] <kirkland> mathiaz: but it hasn't really worked out that way, for better or worse
[16:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: no matter, i'm perfectly happy having only 1 or 2, if they're good ;-)
[16:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: also, nijaba and i have been working on modularizing the profile itself
[16:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: yes. May be was is needed to have a default profile rather then having multiple profiles to choose from
[16:18] <kirkland> mathiaz: so it works more like adding "applets" to your gnome task bars
[16:18] <mathiaz> kirkland: ie provide a best-practice profile.
[16:18] <nijaba> kirkland: I am still working on the kb equivalent part
[16:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: allright - all of this seems great.
[16:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: have you seen/used it at all yet?
[16:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: nope - I'm just back from UDS :)
[16:19] <kirkland> actually, open question for the team ... has anyone used it yet?
[16:19] <sommer> kirkland: me
[16:19] <kirkland> UDS was a month ago :-)
[16:19] <sommer> kirkland: might be an older version though
[16:19] <nealmcb> kirkland: yes, briefly
[16:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/ubuntu-server-includes-window-manager.html
[16:20] <mathiaz> kirkland: ok - if you have some more ideas to work on, I'd suggest to write up a wiki page for that.
[16:20] <mathiaz> kirkland: so that people could help out in implementation
[16:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: good idea
[16:21] <mathiaz> kirkland: so to summarize, you'll upload a new package soon
[16:21] <mathiaz> kirkland: and work will continue to improve the profiles
[16:21] <kirkland> mathiaz: agreed.
[16:22] <mathiaz> kirkland: trying to implement a concept similar to a task bar in screen
[16:22] <kirkland> mathiaz: right, notifications being very important
[16:22] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package
[16:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package
[16:22] <mathiaz> kirkland: could you setup a wiki page to outline this task (taskbar in screen)?
[16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'll make it more general than that, but yes
[16:23] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen
[16:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen
[16:23] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks!
[16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: the hardest part has been agreeing upon hotkeys
[16:23] <mathiaz> let's move on.
[16:23] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] review KVM page refactoring
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  review KVM page refactoring
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: choosing things that don't conflict with other stuff
[16:24] <nijaba> kirkland: hence the modularization I am working on
[16:24] <mathiaz> nijaba: what's the state on that?
[16:24] <mathiaz> sommer: ^^
[16:24] <nijaba> mathiaz: if everything goes well, whould be ready EOW
[16:24] <mathiaz> nijaba: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM ?
[16:24] <nijaba> mathiaz: oh, on KVM --> Done
[16:25] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^^ this is what you've refactored?
[16:25] <nijaba> did it over the vacations
[16:25] <nijaba> yes
[16:25] <mathiaz> nijaba: there is still a note that says WIP on the wiki page
[16:25] <sommer> oh woops, was I supposed to help with that?
[16:25] <mathiaz> sommer: oh. Not necessarly
[16:26] <mathiaz> sommer: just that you're a documentation guru
[16:26] <nijaba> "#This is still work in progress! Feel free to jump in and extend this documentation! "?
[16:26] <mathiaz> nijaba: yes
[16:26] <mathiaz> nijaba: if the work is over, should this note be removed?
[16:26] <nijaba> mathiaz: even though I refactored it, the content can still be extended
[16:27] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - that's always the case with a wiki
[16:27] <nijaba> mathiaz: the note has almost always been there...
[16:27] <mathiaz> nijaba: oh ok. I thought you added it when you were working on refactoring the page.
[16:27] <nijaba> mathiaz: not this one :)
[16:28] <nijaba> soren, what do people think of it?
[16:28] <nijaba> err, not soren, so...
[16:28] <mathiaz> nijaba: well - we could remove it if the pages seem complete enough
[16:28] <nijaba> mathiaz: sure
[16:28] <soren> nijaba: Oh, good, because I have no idea :)
[16:29] <mathiaz> nijaba: done.
[16:29] <nijaba> gerat
[16:29] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so it seems that this task has been completed now.
[16:29] <nijaba> mathiaz: yes, and I moved it away from the roadmap to the report
[16:30] <mathiaz> nijaba: great - thanks!
[16:30] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:30] <nijaba> np
[16:30] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
[16:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for ebox
[16:30] <mathiaz> nealmcb: ^^?
[16:30] <mathiaz> sommer: ^?
[16:30] <zul> I have a look at it, just need a couple of corrections done to the changelog and should be uploaded this week
[16:31] <mathiaz> zul: did you get an ACK from the motu-sru team?
[16:31] <sommer> also the packages are in my ppa if anyone wants to do more testing :)
[16:31] <mathiaz> zul: which version are you going to upload?
[16:32] <zul> mathiaz: not yet bugs need to be opened for the issues that we have, the patches have been backported from the ppa to the ones in the archive sommer can tell you what he did
[16:32] <nealmcb> zul cool!
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: hm - so you've backported the ldap fix?
[16:33] <sommer> basically the apache-authcookie code has been embedded into the new ebox version, and there's some updates for gconf and dbus in intrepid
[16:33] <sommer> mathiaz: yep, that too
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: ok - that's seems the best option for an SRU
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: only two packages to fix.
[16:33] <nealmcb> sommer/zul can you point to the ppa from that bug report?
[16:33] <zul> 3 packages to fix
[16:33] <sommer> 3, ebox, libebox, and ebox-usersandgroups
[16:33] <mathiaz> sommer: it seems that you've touched the minimal number of packages
[16:34] <nealmcb> and have either of you talked to foolano about this?
[16:34] <sommer> mathiaz: I also tested the rest and they seem to work fine
[16:34] <zul> nealmcb: no i havent
[16:34] <sommer> nealmcb: nope, I meant to ping him on IRC, but I did't run into any huge issues
[16:35] <mathiaz> sommer: ok - so it seems we have package ready.
[16:35] <zul> there is also a request to get the newer ebox in jaunty, if someone from the community want to get on it that would be great
[16:35] <mathiaz> what's the next step?
[16:35] <sommer> mathiaz: I think file some bugs and subscribe the sru team?
[16:36] <mathiaz> sommer: right. Now that the patches are ready, we can file specific bugs about them.
[16:36] <mathiaz> we'll also have to upload the new version of ebox to jaunty.
[16:36] <sommer> mathiaz: I should have that done this afternoon or this evening
[16:37] <sommer> mathiaz: what's the process for jaunty?
[16:37] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.
[16:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.
[16:37] <mathiaz> sommer: we need to get the new packages from foolano and review them.
[16:38] <mathiaz> nealmcb: did you get feedback from him?
[16:38] <nealmcb> nope
[16:38] <nealmcb> but I just wrote him, so getting a note in the bug report would get him up to date
[16:38] <mathiaz> nealmcb: which bug report are you refering to?
[16:38] <nealmcb> why are new bug reports needed?
[16:39] <nealmcb> Set above....
[16:39] <zul> for the ldap change and the gconfd changes
[16:39] <nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/255368
[16:39] <nealmcb> ok but they are mentioned I think in the bug or its dups
[16:39] <persia> If there are already bugs, repurposing is preferred, as it makes it easier for the SRU team to see that it's fixed-in-jaunty
[16:40] <nealmcb> see the dups also e.g. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/273486
[16:41] <mathiaz> hm - ok.
[16:42] <mathiaz> so bug 255368 is about one change
[16:42] <mathiaz> as zul mentionned there are two others changes needed to fix ebox in intrepid
[16:43] <nealmcb> right but the other one lists the ldap issue
[16:43] <nealmcb> not sure about gconfd
[16:43] <zul> nealmcb: the gconfd change is needed because gconfd changed to dbus in intrepid
[16:43] <mathiaz> nealmcb: right - bug 273486 lists the ldap change
[16:44] <mathiaz> zul: is there  a bug about that?
[16:44] <zul> mathiaz: not yet sommer will be doing it tonight I believe
[16:45] <mathiaz> zul: ok.
[16:45] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.
[16:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.
[16:45] <mathiaz> sommer: bug 255368 should be use to outline the fix for the authentification
[16:45] <sommer> I'm confused, do we also need a bug about the authcookie thing and ldap?
[16:46] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha that works
[16:46] <mathiaz> sommer: and bug 273486 should be marked unduplicated and be used to outline the change for the ldap fix
[16:47] <nealmcb> ahh - sounds good
[16:47] <mathiaz> sommer: bug 273486 makes a reference to dnsguardian
[16:47] <mathiaz> sommer: have you run into this issue?
[16:49] <sommer> mathiaz: no, the dansgaurdian stuff is only in the ebox ppa version
[16:49] <mathiaz> sommer: ok. great then.
[16:49] <sommer> mathiaz: not what's currently in intrepid... at least I think
[16:49] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change
[16:49] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change
[16:50] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.
[16:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.
[16:50] <mathiaz> sommer: as a reminder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates outlines the procedure
[16:50] <sommer> mathiaz: cool thanks
[16:50] <mathiaz> sommer: and the format to use when creating/updating bugs for a SRU
[16:50]  * yann2 back for discussion about webarchitecture, if time permits later (sorry i was away)
[16:51] <mathiaz> sommer: so I think we have a plan for ebox SRU in intrepid.
[16:51] <nealmcb> thanks!
[16:51] <sommer> mathiaz: yeppers
[16:51] <mathiaz> OTOH we'll also have to update the version in jaunty
[16:52] <mathiaz> before having it fixed in intrepid.
[16:52] <zul> i can do that this afternoon
[16:52] <zul> while waiting for mysql to finish
[16:52] <mathiaz> zul: great - 0.12.6 seems to be available from the PPA
[16:53] <mathiaz> zul: you may wanna get in touch with upstream to see which one they suggest to upload to jaunty
[16:53] <zul> mathiaz: will do
[16:54] <mathiaz> zul: or at least the latest stable.
[16:54] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.
[16:54] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.
[16:55] <mathiaz> let's move on.
[16:55] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] WebArchitecture -
[16:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  WebArchitecture -
[16:55] <mathiaz> yann2: Isn't that a support issue rather than a development issue?
[16:55] <yann2> Hello - as I tried to explain in my small page on the wiki
[16:55] <yann2> mathiaz > no, i don't think so
[16:56] <mathiaz> yann2: the link doesn't work
[16:56] <yann2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/WebArchitecture
[16:56] <yann2> basically the main issue is that we (ubuntu) run all the php apps  under the user www-data
[16:57] <yann2> and that we rely on mod_php and on php security features to get a feeling of security
[16:57] <mathiaz> yann2: right - there has been some discussion to provide mod_fcgid in main
[16:57] <yann2> things like safe_mode, that won't get supported in php6 anyway
[16:57] <yann2> mmh, I didnt know about that.
[16:57] <mathiaz> yann2: that's what was suggested by the security team and ivoks
[16:57] <yann2> but fastcgi, cgid, mod_itk or whatever -
[16:58] <mathiaz> yann2: it hasn't happend yet however.
[16:58] <yann2> php, python and otherwebapps really should run under their own user
[16:58] <yann2> right, I am glad someone put the topic up before me :) where could I contact them?
[16:58] <mathiaz> yann2: right. So I'll defer this discussion to the next meeting as we're running out of time
[16:58] <yann2> np
[16:58] <mathiaz> yann2: ivoks is interested in that
[16:59]  * persia hopes for an "Open Discussion" item.
[16:59] <mathiaz> yann2: https://launchpad.net/~ivoks
[16:59] <mathiaz> persia: I'm sorry we won't have time
[16:59] <yann2> thanks mathiaz  I will contact him
[16:59] <persia> mathiaz, OK.  I'll put it on the agenda for next week.
[16:59] <mathiaz> The kernel team meeting is following
[16:59] <mathiaz> persia: please do.
[16:59] <mathiaz> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[17:00] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:00] <mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place?
[17:00] <sommer> o//
[17:00] <nijaba> +1
[17:01] <mathiaz> allright then - see you all next week, same time, same place.
[17:01] <mathiaz> and happy hacking on 9.04!
[17:01] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:01] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:01.
[17:01] <pgraner> Hello All... Time for the kernel team meeting...
[17:01] <pgraner> #startmeeting
[17:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
[17:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:01]  * apw is here
[17:01]  * smb_tp too
[17:01]  * cking too
[17:02] <lieb> yawn
[17:02] <rtg> cking: ext4 support for grub! way to go.
[17:02] <cking> rtg: it was nothing really
[17:02] <pgraner> cking is at it again I see....
[17:03] <rtg> now, if we can get the installer guys to offer it as an option.
[17:03] <rtg> cking: did you get that uploaded?
[17:04] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Security and SRU kernels
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security and SRU kernels
[17:04] <pgraner> smb_tp: how do things look?
[17:05] <smb_tp> I got the kernel for the 8.04.2 uploaded in December. So far no big complains
[17:05] <smb_tp> No security stuff at the moment
[17:06] <pgraner> smb_tp: according to the schedule Jan 14th is the date for the intrepid kernel, still good to go?
[17:07] <smb_tp> When I checked yesterday there were no new things queued in git. There might be one thing about the pauses
[17:07] <smb_tp> if we find out quick enough what of the millions of changes in 2.6.28 did the trick
[17:07] <apw> 9.5k changes :(
[17:08] <pgraner> smb_tp: ok...
[17:08] <rtg> smb_tp: are the pauses a regression?
[17:08] <apw> there is that dell resume hang patch pending
[17:09] <rtg> I want the current -proposed Intrepid kernel propagated to -updates. so unless there is something _really_ important in the queue...
[17:09] <smb_tp> I go through that tomorrow, so we could trigger another upload before. If it is not too much a week in -proposed might do ok
[17:10] <apw> smb_tp, is that the "need to press a key" to make boot work one?
[17:10] <pgraner> smb_tp: provided the fixes are small and isolated
[17:10] <smb_tp> apw, the one I was referring with pauses, yes
[17:10] <rtg> if its not a regression, then it can wait.
[17:10]  * pgraner agrees
[17:11] <smb_tp> But I am not very sure this can be found in the timeframe until the 14th. Maybe for the next upload
[17:11] <smb_tp> It is a long standing regression from hardy
[17:11] <smb_tp> but only on some systems
[17:11] <rtg> smb_tp: there is no reason we can't commit the fix (if found). just don't upload yet.
[17:11] <smb_tp> mostly hp
[17:12] <smb_tp> rtg, sure.
[17:12] <apw> i have had questions about the dell resume fix, as in when is it going to make it, it got missed in rtg's sweep up of pending patches over the break
[17:12] <smb_tp> But isolating will take time given that I don't have such a system. So it all goes through test kernels and user tests
[17:13] <rtg> apw: what Dell resume fix?
[17:13] <smb_tp> apw, it is in git?
[17:13] <apw> smb_tp, yep been in there a few days
[17:13] <apw> rtg its a dri restore fix for i915 on later hardware
[17:13] <smb_tp> apw ah ok, saw it
[17:14] <rtg> apw: it must not have been there the last time I uploaded
[17:14] <apw> yeah it was out on our mailing list, but slipped through fingers in your sweep when we were off
[17:14] <apw> just bad luck
[17:15] <rtg> apw: ok, it'll get into -proposed right after the current kernel is propagated
[17:15] <apw> ok
[17:15] <pgraner> Ok... anything else for this topic?
[17:15] <smb_tp> rtg, I would say, we promote -proposed to -updates then upload this one and get it promoted to -updates before the 14th. Would that be ok with you?
[17:16] <rtg> smb_tp: possibly, but we'll have to work with pitti and slangasek on that.
[17:16] <smb_tp> rtg, Sure. I will talk to him pitty tomorrow about that
[17:17] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
[17:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
[17:17] <pgraner> We have several milestones due prior to Alpha3
[17:17] <rtg> Jaunty is looking OK, despite some installer issues.
[17:18] <rtg> cking has a grub patch for ext4 support, so we can boot native.
[17:18] <pgraner> * Removal of ACPI method of suspend.
[17:18] <pgraner> * Update of the wiki page on how to use the new suspend/resume test framework
[17:18] <rtg> whats that?
[17:19] <pgraner> * Review of the debugging suspend/resume wiki
[17:19] <pgraner> * Initial cut of the susupend resume script shipped in A3
[17:19] <smb_tp> Sound like the list from UDS
[17:19] <pgraner> BenC has the ACPI bits. He couldn't make the the meeting so I'll get him to follow up to the mailing list.
[17:20] <sconklin> apw and I have independently been working at bits of this
[17:20] <pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal
[17:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal
[17:20] <apw> we have most of the bits of the scripting, sconklin you and i need to get together and shoce the two halves together
[17:20] <sconklin> apw: right, pgraner, you can assign that to us
[17:20] <pgraner> apw: when do you think you'll get the wiki page up with decent info?
[17:21] <pgraner> [ACTION] apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume
[17:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume
[17:21] <sconklin> I can help with that as well
[17:21] <apw> once we have the basic script dynamics done that should be easy to complete
[17:21] <apw> yep, then we can review the rest of the stuff to make sure it makes sense and links to this new info
[17:21] <pgraner> apw: I'll leave that action with you. When done publish to the disto-team & kernel-team mailing lists
[17:22] <apw> ok
[17:22] <pgraner> [ACTION] apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed
[17:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed
[17:22] <sconklin> I'll check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
[17:22] <sconklin> We should, to make this work
[17:22] <pgraner> Those are the big ticket items for A3 anything else?
[17:23] <pgraner> [ACTION] sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
[17:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
[17:24] <pgraner> Anything else on this topic
[17:25] <pgraner> Ok moving on then...
[17:25] <pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
[17:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
[17:25] <pgraner> amkitk is still on holiday... so we won't have much to say. rtg can you bring us up to speed
[17:26] <pgraner> what what you have going on
[17:26] <rtg> no changes since Amit went on holiday. I hope to get an ARM platform today so I can at least fix the build problems.
[17:26] <apw> any sign of a porter?
[17:27] <rtg> supposedly the DC has hardware...
[17:27] <pgraner> rtg: I'll confirm that it was shipped to you today
[17:27] <pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today
[17:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today
[17:27] <rtg> I think you also ought to ask where the porters are?
[17:27] <pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to find out porter status
[17:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to find out porter status
[17:29] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion...
[17:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion...
[17:29] <pgraner> Anyone have any items they wish to discuss/ bring up?
[17:29] <apw> nothing i can think of
[17:30] <rtg> I have not read Scott's analysis. are boot times improving?
[17:30] <apw> yeah looked like 5s overall
[17:30] <apw> 5s out of like 25 iirc
[17:30] <pgraner> apw: how much was kernel?
[17:30] <rtg> what about the 18 sec that pitti claims?
[17:30] <pgraner> apw: or was it all kernel
[17:30]  * pgraner hasn't read either
[17:30] <Keybuk> rtg: what did pitti change for that?
[17:30] <apw> mostly from the modules being builtin
[17:31] <Keybuk> pgraner: kernel changes don't seem to make the kernel init take any longer
[17:31] <rtg> Keybuk: just the built in PATA/SATA
[17:31] <Keybuk> while reducing userspace by ~5s
[17:31] <cking> I'd like to know how it performs using an SSD
[17:31] <rtg> Keybuk: I think he also skipped initramfs
[17:31] <Keybuk> ah, I may have built the reversion just before that commit ;)
[17:31] <Keybuk> cking: my tests are all done on SSD
[17:32] <cking> Keybuk: great
[17:32] <Keybuk> rtg: yeah, your commit to build in the drivers was done just after I did the checkouts yesterday to build
[17:33] <rtg> I was a bit nervous about it, so I delayed.
[17:34] <rtg> I think all of the components are now built in that allow us to skip initramfs.
[17:34] <rtg> at least on the generic PC
[17:35] <apw> basically the uuid issue is the only thing outstanding
[17:35] <rtg> apw: right, we have to decide if its grub or the kernel that gets changed for that. I vote kernel.
[17:35] <cking> rtg: me too
[17:36] <apw> it feels like something we can do there pretty cheap
[17:36] <cking> it's generic and will work for grub 0.97, grub 2 etc
[17:36] <pgraner> cking: what are the downsides?
[17:36] <rtg> its likely something we could get pushed upstream as well
[17:37] <cking> pgraner: none - it's far easier to do it in kernel space than in grub
[17:37] <apw> rtg, when looking to do that  we might consider if 'id' rather than 'uuid' is simpler in kernel
[17:38] <rtg> I'm not sure I understand the difference
[17:38]  * pgraner either
[17:38]  * cking neither too
[17:38] <apw> i thought id was only info in the sense page
[17:39] <apw> and uuid could be more deeply tied to the partition contents
[17:39] <apw> and as such one was cheaper than the other
[17:39] <apw> as in /dev/disk/by-id rather than by-uuid
[17:39] <rtg> I'm sure that uuid is tied to the partition as well as the file system on that partition.
[17:39] <cking> apw: you are right there. uuid has to be extracted from the partition - but it varies per file system
[17:40] <Keybuk> err
[17:40] <Keybuk> if you mean by "id" what I think you mean, you don't want that
[17:40] <Keybuk> UUID= and LABEL= are the two useful options
[17:40] <Keybuk> which both refer to filesystem metadata
[17:40] <Keybuk> if you move the filesystem with dd, or rearrange disks, etc. the UUID/LABEL *follow* the move
[17:40] <Keybuk> which is pretty much the entire point
[17:41] <rtg> thats exactly what I like most about UUID
[17:41] <apw> they are differnt levels of protection for different levels of cost
[17:42] <cking> the UUID is fs specific, so getting this info out of each fs will require work on each fs driver
[17:42]  * apw muses that we might be able to use a 'id' as a hint as to where to check the 'uuid' to speed loading
[17:43] <Keybuk> can't grub just pass a hint to the kernel?
[17:43] <Keybuk> since it's already doing the work of finding the filesystem with the given UUID?
[17:44] <apw> when does grub do anything with uuid's?
[17:44] <cking> Keybuk: grub can do this - it's not a big deal
[17:45] <rtg> cking: what kind of hint would grub pass?
[17:45] <cking> apw: grub scans each partition and extracts the UUID and resolves this down to the BIOS drive mapping
[17:45] <cking> grub only knows the device and partition number - this needs to be mapped to (hdX,Y) - which I am unsure about
[17:46] <cking> and it does not work for all know file systems
[17:46] <cking> s/know/known/
[17:47]  * apw detects detail overload
[17:47] <rtg> yeah - lets take this offline
[17:47] <cking> indeed
[17:48] <pgraner> [ACTION] kernel team to work out the UUID issues
[17:48] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kernel team to work out the UUID issues
[17:48] <pgraner> Anything else folks?
[17:48] <lieb> not from here
[17:49] <pgraner> [TOPIC] Next weeks meeting....
[17:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next weeks meeting....
[17:49] <pgraner> Same bat time, same bat channel?
[17:49] <apw> works for me
[17:49] <rtg> wfm
[17:49] <cking> ok
[17:49] <lieb> yea
[17:49] <smb_tp> ok
[17:49] <pgraner> great...
[17:49] <pgraner> #endmeeting
[17:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:49.
[17:49] <pgraner> Thanks everyone
[21:03] <mdke> hi sabdfl, Technoviking
[21:03] <sabdfl> hello everybody
[21:03] <Technoviking> hello
[21:03] <sabdfl> my firefox is crashing, can't see the agenda
[21:03] <mdke> it's empty
[21:03] <Technoviking> sabdfl: did you file a bug :)
[21:04] <sabdfl> empty!
[21:04] <sabdfl> i love this delegation thing
[21:04] <sabdfl> Technoviking: hoping apport will do it for me soon
[21:04] <mdke> yes, the membership boards seem to be working well
[21:04] <Technoviking> :)
[21:05] <sabdfl> is there anything we'd like to discuss, now that we're here?
[21:05] <sabdfl> how are the IRC folks shaping up?
[21:05]  * mdke doesn't know
[21:06] <sabdfl> i haven't heard anything either way, since the flurry of activity
[21:06] <sabdfl> when we made the last round of appointments
[21:06]  * mdke nods
[21:06] <sabdfl> Technoviking: was there a decision at UDS about creating a "irc members" team?
[21:06] <mdke> perhaps we can ask the IRC Council to report on progress in a few weeks once the new members have settled in
[21:07] <sabdfl> +1
[21:07] <Technoviking> sabdfl: I believe so
[21:07] <sabdfl> Technoviking: a +1 or -1?
[21:07] <Technoviking> +1
[21:07] <sabdfl> same for forums, right?
[21:08] <mdke> what would the team be made up of?
[21:08] <mdke> operators?
[21:08] <Technoviking> yes
[21:08] <sabdfl> not necessarily, i think we should make it possible to be a respected contributor while not also shouldering ops
[21:08] <mdke> so what's the point of the team? just recognition of contribution to irc?
[21:09] <sabdfl> same as the point for ubuntumembers :-)
[21:09] <jpds> We have an "official" operator team for #ubuntu at: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc
[21:09] <sabdfl> contribution to ubuntu through irc participation
[21:09] <mdke> ok, so it would be a subgroup of ubuntumembers
[21:09] <sabdfl> yes, same as ubuntu-dev
[21:10] <mdke> ok, I suspect you can guess my opinion then :)
[21:10] <sabdfl> -1?
[21:10] <sabdfl> "send 'em to the regionals!"
[21:11] <sabdfl> i hear you from here :-)
[21:11] <mdke> :)
[21:11] <mdke> yeah, I think ubuntu membership should be conferred by the membership boards
[21:11] <sabdfl> from the perspective of "everyone who is interested", surely reporting is the key?
[21:12] <mdke> I think there are lots of advantages to having the process centralised, now that the centralised process is running smoothly
[21:12] <mdke> it's probably not the right time to rehash them though, I rant about them often enough
[21:13] <sabdfl> do you think someone should be an ubuntu-dev without being an ubuntumember?
[21:13] <sabdfl> i'm just trying to get a sense of whether you think some of the existing functional-delegation bits are broken
[21:13] <mdke> I'm in two minds whether -dev is a special case or not, I can see the practical convenience of the MOTU Council being able to push that through
[21:14] <Technoviking> I know some people who like to contribute to Ubuntu without the pressure of being an Ubuntu member
[21:14] <mdke> Technoviking: that's perfectly possible, either way
[21:15] <sabdfl> ok, well, let
[21:15] <mdke> sabdfl: I certainly don't think anything is broken, I just think it would be better to have membership a centralised process
[21:15] <sabdfl> 's not rehash it here
[21:15] <Technoviking> some people are not joiner, for various reason
[21:15] <mdke> +1 for not rehashing the discussion :)
[21:15] <sabdfl> is there anyone on the FC or IRC-C who is also on a regional membership board, i wonder?
[21:15] <mdke> I'm happy to be in the minority
[21:15] <sabdfl> to address consistency?
[21:16] <mdke> Mike :)
[21:16] <mdke> not sure about the IRC-C
[21:16] <alex_mayorga> sabdfl: I'm an ubuntu-mx member in theory
[21:17] <Rafik> I think elkbuntu is both in IRC-C and Asia Oceania RMB
[21:17] <Technoviking> well, I think the regional board have a good feel for how the different area in Ubuntu work now, forums,irc, dev, loco, etc...
[21:17] <mdke> Rafik: good point
[21:18] <sabdfl> so we have *some* cross coverage
[21:18] <mdke> Technoviking: yep, they definitely do. It's great to have a mix of backgrounds on those boards
[21:18] <sabdfl> that's enough for now, let's see how it goes, re-evaluate in a few months, or if it blows up
[21:18] <mdke> ok
[21:18] <sabdfl> but for the moment, i'm happy
[21:18] <mdke> sabdfl: one point we could discuss is whether the existing meeting times for the CC are working, and whether the CC needs a new member to replace Jerome. That has been kicking around the mailing list for a while
[21:18] <alex_mayorga> err I'm on the Mexico loco, never mind
[21:19] <Technoviking> sabdfl: I think are working well, +1
[21:19] <sabdfl> mdke: what's not on the list are nominations :-)
[21:19] <sabdfl> so let's start with times
[21:19] <mdke> sabdfl: that's your prerogative
[21:20] <sabdfl> i'd like to have nominations from the existing CC to consider
[21:20] <sabdfl> and would discuss them with the CC before proposing them formally
[21:20] <mdke> sabdfl: as I understand it, you make nominations. But we could discuss whether it's a good idea in principle to have another member on the CC
[21:20] <sabdfl> yes, i'd like more, and more non-Canonical, ideally too
[21:20] <sabdfl> let's start with the times
[21:20] <sabdfl> the TB has stopped trying to cover all timezones
[21:20] <mdke> ok
[21:21] <sabdfl> i'm tempted...
[21:21] <sabdfl> i don't know that our morning slot gets us much love in the far east, as it is
[21:21] <sabdfl> what do you guys think?
[21:21] <sabdfl> would a single, day-us-evening-eu time, be better?
[21:22] <alex_mayorga> what are the other options?
[21:22] <mdke> I don't really have a view, I've missed so many meetings recently so I don't have a feel for whether people would like different times
[21:22] <Technoviking> sabdfl: That would work for me, maybe we can be flexible for issues in other timezones
[21:22] <mdke> I know that I can only make -eu evenings, but I suspect that other members of the CC wouldn't be able to make that time so easily
[21:23] <sabdfl> alex_mayorga: if we're going to pick a time, we should try to pick one that covers as many tz's as possible
[21:24] <sabdfl> which usually means evening eu
[21:25] <sabdfl> given that we're the "buck stops here" point, it seems wrong to have a blanket policy that flat-out doesn't work for someone in australia
[21:25] <alex_mayorga> morning us works as longs as it is possible to access from behind corporate firewalls, I for one are behind one at that time with no IRC
[21:25] <sabdfl> we did the regional groups to avoid that
[21:25] <mdke> yeah, I agree. I think two times is reasonable, and we should be able to cover those with members in different TZs
[21:26] <mdke> especially if we add a new member or more than one
[21:26] <Seeker`> i dont think it is possible to get reasonable worldwide coverage with 1 fixed time
[21:26] <sabdfl> so that would suggest nominations from asiapac, especially, with a plan to do earlier in the morning eu + asia, and evening eu + usa
[21:27] <mdke> yes, although I guess the nominations shouldn't necessarily be conditional on TZ
[21:27] <sabdfl> well, we are replacing jerome
[21:27] <mdke> true
[21:28] <sabdfl> ok, i'll ask now that we talk on the list about candidates
[21:28] <sabdfl> i';m not going to do a wider call for them
[21:28] <sabdfl> anything else?
[21:28] <Technoviking> nothing here
[21:29] <mdke> sabdfl: does the TB have enough members? I recall reading about a call for nominations, but that must be a couple of releases back
[21:29] <sabdfl> we have two candidates, i will o ahead and nominate
[21:29] <sabdfl> wanted more to do a bakeoff
[21:29] <mdke> cool
[21:29] <Technoviking> mdke: I know Matt Z was feeling over worked on the TB
[21:29] <sabdfl> ok
[21:30] <sabdfl> thanks all!
[21:30] <mdke> thanks
[21:30] <Technoviking> thanks
[21:30] <sabdfl> night night
[23:43] <blackfate> hi
[23:44] <PrivateVoid> hello
[23:44] <PrivateVoid> still about three hours until the meeting
[23:44] <PrivateVoid> I think
[23:47] <drubin> @schedule
[23:48] <PrivateVoid> woah... lots of schedules
[23:48] <drubin> I think it is also the topic
[23:51] <robb_m> drubin: you're correct.
[23:51] <robb_m> its in the topic.
[23:51] <robb_m> ubottu changes the topic accordingly :)