[00:33] <guilag> hi, i only got a quick question. What is the big difference between ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-upmc ? from what I understand, ubuntu-mid is more oriented for device that has touchscreen right ?
[01:08] <tripzero> i know there must be a good reason behind the "lpia" architecture
[01:09] <tripzero> all the um packages seem to be in a different repo anyway, why not just keep in i386?
[01:09] <tripzero> s/in/them*
[04:52] <persia> tripzero, Actually, the "lpia" architecture is subtly different: there is a slight divergence, which is expected to increase, between the low-power in-order designs, and the high-power out-of-order designs.  While both run i686 code, the instruction sets are expected to have less in common in the future.
[04:58] <tripzero> interesting
[04:58] <tripzero> i didn't know that
[04:58] <tripzero> thanks
[05:00] <persia> tripzero, No problem.  I didn't know myself until about three months ago.  Someone from Intel came to UDS, and explained it in a session we had about possibly dropping the lpia architecture.
[05:00] <persia> Note that some work has been done, so the ubuntu-mobile flavour should work for any architecture (e.g. i386) starting with jaunty.
[05:00] <persia> Err.  s/months/weeks/
[05:03] <tripzero> oh, so lpia might be dropped?
[05:03] <persia> No.
[05:04] <persia> We had thought about dropping it because it is a lot of work to maintain it, and many of us didn't see the benefit, and wondered why we couldn't just use i386.
[05:04] <persia> The divergence was explained: it may not be so useful today, but it will likely become more useful soon.
[05:05] <persia> As a result, we'll not be dropping lpia, and as the details of the divergence become more clear, "lpia" will probably be pushed upstream, and it (or some other similar string) become part of autotools, etc.
[05:09] <tripzero> ah, okay
[05:09] <tripzero> i'm messing with moblin image creator, it just seems like a pain for me to port my deb repo and packages for lpia
[05:09] <persia> Note that until the divergence gets more formalised, lpia is basically just an i686-optimised build, with some experimentation in optimtimisations.
[05:09] <tripzero> but it's not as hard as i'm making it...
[05:10] <persia> Depending on your hardware, you may find it runs up to 3% faster than regular i386.
[05:10] <persia> I'd recommend not using moblin-image-creator.  What are you trying to accomplish?
[05:10] <tripzero> does it require a custom gcc for those optimizations?
[05:10] <persia> I think gcc has some lpia-specific patches: you'd have to take a look at the gcc source to verify.
[05:11] <tripzero> i'm the maintainer/creator for linuxice a smaller linux distro for in car entertainment
[05:11] <persia> deb-based?  What's your upstream?
[05:11] <tripzero> it's based on ubuntu feisty, which is end-of-life
[05:11] <tripzero> I'm looking for a new base
[05:11] <tripzero> and new tools that work with the new base
[05:12] <persia> What sort of patch volume are you carrying?  Mostly application selection, or lots of changes?
[05:12] <tripzero> we replace the desktop and dock with our own
[05:12] <persia> So just application selection then?  Are your desktop and dock open?
[05:13] <tripzero> yes
[05:13] <persia> Well, I'll recommend you stop deriving then, and build a flavour within Ubuntu.
[05:13] <tripzero> howso?
[05:13] <tripzero> you mean like mythbuntu?
[05:13] <persia> Precisely.
[05:13] <tripzero> ahh
[05:14] <persia> Mind you, you'd need *lots* of users to get official image builds, but it's easy enough to get the metapackages working, etc.
[05:14] <persia> Also means you'd have no worries about patch load, because you'd be pushing patches into Ubuntu directly.
[05:14] <tripzero> right
[05:15] <persia> There's several carpc-type people who stop by here, and I'm sure there's a good base of interest.
[05:15] <tripzero> yeah, no doubt there is interest
[05:15] <persia> On the other hand, you lose a lot of branding: don't know exactly what that would cost you in terms of your current base.
[05:15] <tripzero> the community is definitely building
[05:15] <tripzero>  /growing
[05:16] <tripzero> so we basically want to get our packages into ubuntu's repo
[05:17] <persia> That'd be my recommendation.
[05:17] <persia> Are they lintian-clean?
[05:17] <tripzero> then as the community grows, we may be able to get official builds
[05:17] <persia> That might take a while, but in the meantime, you could use the standard image build tools for local builds (like ichthux or ubuntume do today).
[05:18] <tripzero> linitian-clean meaning properly build deb packages?
[05:18] <tripzero> built*
[05:19] <persia> meaning that when you run lintian against them, it returns no warnings or errors.
[05:19] <tripzero> ahh, in that case no, i'm sure lintian will return warnings
[05:19] <tripzero> but that can easily be fixed
[05:19] <persia> OK.  You'd want to fix them first, and then submit the packages to revu
[05:19] <persia> !revu
[05:20] <persia> It's also probably worth hanging about in #ubuntu-motu: that team will usually be happy to answer any packaging questions, or questions about the procedure to get stuff into the repos.
[05:20] <tripzero> cool :)
[05:23] <tripzero> i appreciate the advice
[05:24] <persia> Happy to help, although I'll admit it's selfish, because I suspect your work to make carpcs better will make my pocket devices work better :)
[05:27] <tripzero> :) hope so.  I"m planning on grabbing me an aigo p8888 mid and loading our stuff on it.
[05:29] <persia> That's not bad hardware, although I'll warn you that both the video driver and touchscreen driver are closed, which has caused no little annoyance to users.
[05:44] <tripzero> persia: it probably uses the egalax driver is my guess?
[05:45] <persia> For the touchscreen, yes, that's my understanding.
[05:45] <persia> Mind you, the p8888 might be different than the others, but that'd be a big change, for little gain I'd expect to see for Aigo.
[05:46] <tripzero> right
[06:01] <tripzero> persia: what are the standard image build tools?
[06:02] <persia> I'd recommend looking at debian-cd and livecd-rootfs.
[06:05] <StevenK> debian-cd is a little heavy-handed.
[06:06] <StevenK> We have a script that will make a .img given what livecd-rootfs creates
[06:06] <persia> StevenK, Well, yes, but what do you think is best if one doesn't want a livecd?
[06:06] <persia> (but yes, the script is *lots* easier for live images)
[06:07] <StevenK> Um, I'm not sure, since I like live images. :-)
[06:09] <StevenK> I'm also battling a 41 degC heatwave
[06:10] <persia> Summer is a wonderful and debilitating thing.
[06:10] <StevenK> I love summer, and hate excess heat and the headaches it brings
[06:32] <ganes> i want the kernel used in MID 
[06:32] <persia> ganes, OK.  Which release?
[06:33] <ganes> intrepid
[06:33] <persia> apt-get source linux-lpia
[06:33] <ganes> persia, which repo i have to use if i want to install more package 
[06:33] <persia> ports.ubuntu.com
[06:34] <ganes> persia, i have to connect with this repo & to run your command .. am i correct 
[06:34] <persia> You'd need to add a deb-src line for that repo.
[06:34] <persia> You could also just connect to ports.ubuntu.com via http, and grab the files that way, if you like.
[06:35] <ganes> deb-src http://ports.ubuntu.com/ intrepid main --- correct
[06:35] <ganes> ok 
[06:45] <jinja-sheep> Curious sheep:  How come there isn't a ubuntu-umpc-8.04.img ?  Since it's the LTS version.
[06:46] <ganes> persia, how i come to know its a lpia 
[06:47] <ganes> persia, i am using intel processor MID device
[06:47] <ganes> persia, so which kernel source i have to download
[06:47] <persia> jinja-sheep, Because the umpc effort wasn't started until May, and 8.04 was released in April.
[06:47] <persia> ganes, the source of the linux-lpia package.
[06:48] <ganes> persia, is it for both intel processor 
[06:49] <ganes> i saw there lot of package there like power, sparc
[06:49] <jinja-sheep> persia:  I'm customizing the ubuntu-umpc-8.10.img right now.  Trying to get rid of excess packages such as cellwriter.  I suppose I could be a friendly contributer to this project.
[06:50] <persia> ganes, in http://ports.ubuntu.com/pool/main/l/linux-lpia/ ?
[06:50] <persia> jinja-sheep, With what are you replacing cellwriter?  And yes, more people would be a good thing.
[06:50] <ganes> persia, when i connect to repo i am getting the following error W: GPG error: http://ports.ubuntu.com intrepid Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 40976EAF437D05B5
[06:51] <ganes> W: Failed to fetch http://ports.ubuntu.com/dists/intrepid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz  404 Not Found
[06:51] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Got Aspire One -- A child's laptop, that is. I tried mobile and it wasn't for me.  It appears to be targeted for touch-screen.  However, umpc was.
[06:53] <persia> ganes, That's because there's no i386 repo on ports.ubuntu.com: it's other architectures (lpia, powerpc, sparc, etc.)
[06:54] <ganes> persia, so what i have to do
[06:54] <ganes> persia, it means my pc is a i386 
[06:54] <persia> jinja-sheep, Yeah, the MID edition is for *much* smaller hardware: basically handhelds.  "umpc" is more for the small notebooks.
[06:55] <ganes> then how can i customize for the MID 
[06:56] <jinja-sheep> persia: I personally like maximus.  It is *very* appropriate for the small notebooks. ;)
[06:58] <persia> jinja-sheep, At the time of the intrepid release, there were some conflicts with compiz, if I remember correctly.  More feedback and testing is *very* welcome.
[06:59] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Personally, I'd just turn off compiz -- Given the situation that the laptop is running with Intel Atom 1.6mhz.  Better performance.  Just count me in. :)
[07:01] <persia> jinja-sheep, Actually, depending on your graphics chip, might even be lower performance, due to offloaded widget rendering with compiz: really depends on the hardware and the quality of drivers.
[07:03] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Interesting.  Is there anything I can do about power-management? Perhaps a certain package?  I'll have to search for it.  It seems that under "On Battery Power", it contains actions + display.  However... Put computer to sleep when inactive for N minutes.  I'd prefer shutdown.  Any thought / idea on that one?
[07:04] <jinja-sheep> I'm aware that it's under... Gnome. Hmm.
[07:06] <persia> I'm not a fan of shutdown for mobile devices at all: there's no good reason for the overhead of startup.  Just suspend with an RTC event to hibernate if you don't wake up for a bit.
[07:08] <persia> I'll agree the screen-saver is pointless: I prefer screen-dim at 1min, and suspend at 2min.  Probably hibernate at 10-15, depending on the time-to-session from hibernate for the device.
[07:08] <jinja-sheep> More choices will be nice.  "<select choice> computer when inactive for: N minutes."  I had issues with hibernation.  Seems like lot of people are too... from what I read on Brainstorm + forums.
[07:08] <persia> hibernate doesn't tend to get the testing and bug reports it needs to work well.
[07:09] <persia> Seems to me that many people prefer to just shut down rather than troubleshoot.
[07:09] <jinja-sheep> Screensaver is luxury.  And yes, you're right...pointless.  I find blank screen to be more relaxing than screensavers and people would have more time to produce something better than screensavers in first place.
[07:10] <persia> screensavers are *incredibly* useful for always-on phosphor-based display units.
[07:10] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Consuming power is one of the issues.  If we could conserve more, there are more good things coming this way.  Less power bills and whatnot.  And I hate to shut down... with all my windows open.  Hibernation didn't work for me though (on the computer).  No big deal tho. :>
[07:10] <persia> They're just pointless for energystar compliant TFT displays.
[07:11] <persia> jinja-sheep, Yes big deal: find out *why* it doesn't work.  I'm sure one of your devices isn't getting turned off, or turned on properly.  File bugs with *lots* of details.  It can be fixed.
[07:12] <jinja-sheep> persia:  I'll try to hibernate on the laptop right now.
[07:13] <jinja-sheep> Suspend works just fine.
[07:13] <persia> jinja-sheep, Thanks :)  It's getting hibernate to work that means we *can* shut down with all the windows open, because they will still be open later.
[07:14] <persia> Of course, it would be nice to have a clean way for network-active stuff to pause at hibernate, but that's a separate project.
[07:15] <jinja-sheep> persia:  What do you mean by that?  Leaving Pidgin, Browser, Torrent, IRC, etc running under suspend?
[07:16] <jinja-sheep> Booting up from hibernation right now.
[07:17] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Hibernation work too.  Now I'm changing the setting to hibernate for low power critical. :)
[07:17] <persia> Excellent news!
[07:17] <persia> And yes, so that e.g. pidgin would know when there was a suspend event, and disconnect cleanly from servers, reconnecting at resume.
[07:21] <jinja-sheep> Lot of people (including me) wanted to have some kind of Gnome+Ubuntu barebone without the apps.  I tried the minimal disc.  The problem is that... when you install ubuntu-desktop, there's still lot, even for ubuntu-mobile too.  Ubuntu surely is expanding. 
[07:21] <jinja-sheep> persia:  Nice knowing you.  I'm going to chill at #ubuntu and... I'll be around. 
[07:22] <jinja-sheep> Take care. 
[07:28] <persia> jinja-sheep, Chat with you later.  Good luck with your testing.
[09:35] <Celtiorus> hi from france :)
[09:35] <Celtiorus> nothing new about compal or aigo and ubuntu mobile ? :p
[09:41] <persia> Celtiorus, Not that I've heard.  Still no touchscreen or video driver :(
[09:55] <Celtiorus> thanks you persia
[10:12] <rzr> hi
[10:34] <persia> Hey rzr 
[10:34] <rzr> hi there
[10:35]  * rzr is hacking on nokia devices : http://rzr.online.fr/q/nit
[10:35] <rzr> i'll have to test mer too
[11:11] <BUGabundo_work> hi
[11:12] <BUGabundo_work> I'm going to install a daily live on an eeepc100h
[11:12] <BUGabundo_work> is UMPC usable currently right now?
[11:12] <BUGabundo_work> s/100h/1000h/
[11:12] <BUGabundo_work> ogra: ping ^^^^^
[11:13] <ogra> umpc is going away
[11:14] <ogra> so no, currently its not usable
[11:14] <BUGabundo_work> ok
[11:14] <BUGabundo_work> thanks for the heads up
[11:15] <BUGabundo_work> so should I go with UNR ?
[11:16] <ogra> umpc will become something similar within the next weeks
[11:16] <BUGabundo_work> humm
[11:16] <BUGabundo_work> so "right now" ogra, what is my best bet?
[11:16] <ogra> but i'm extremely busy with other stuff atm so didnt care for it yet
[11:16] <BUGabundo_work> generic?
[11:16] <ogra> make a USB key from a desktop iso
[11:16] <BUGabundo_work> okay
[11:17]  * ogra needs to go back to other stuff
[11:17] <StevenK> BUGabundo_work: Your best bet is Intrepid, at this point.
[11:18] <persia> BUGabundo_work, If you *really* want jaunty, uninstall the metapackages, or expect massive changes.
[11:18] <BUGabundo_work> eheh
[11:18] <BUGabundo_work> already have jaunty on my own laptop for testing
[11:18] <BUGabundo_work> this is a co-worker dualboot laptop
[11:20] <BUGabundo_work> StevenK: do you know if usbcreator works with a 1GBs pen?
[11:20] <persia> Then intrepid is the right choice.
[11:20] <BUGabundo_work> making one with 8.10
[23:09] <jinja-sheep> Got a minor issue.  There once was a 'X' (Close) button on top-right of the panel.  Apparently it disappeared.  How would I obtain it back?  I need to... close stuffs. :\
[23:09] <jinja-sheep> Any helps would be nice.