[00:10] hi, all [00:12] hi! [00:14] hey nothingman [00:15] what's new tonight? [00:15] I had forgotten that the dev meeting was at 6, sorry [00:15] was doing dishes; fixing cousin's laptop [00:22] heh, im fixing my cousins pc too [00:23] nothingman: hopefully in a bit I'll have meeting minutes out [00:23] stupid AT&T and their "3G real soon now..." [00:24] alrighty, thx [00:47] nothingman: ack..at&t suuuuuuuuuuucks [00:47] i wouldnt wish their services upon my worst enemy [00:49] oh? [00:49] I've had AT&T for cell and internet service for years [00:54] i did too, for years [00:54] and finally got fed up with it all :p [00:54] now im with comcast and t-mobile and i couldnt be happier [00:55] no dropped calls, no voicemails without my phone ringing, no crappy dsl service [00:55] thats just mho though ;) [01:19] LaserJock: link to those minutes? [01:20] not yet :( [01:20] I had to write an interview first [01:23] 'sOK [01:23] with who? [01:27] somebody who likes to interview Ubuntu developers [01:27] sent me an email so I figured I better write back :-) [01:29] for hall-of-fame? =) [01:30] no, no [01:30] I don't dare dream of being in the HOF ;-) [01:33] crimsun: I don't think they let us old-timers in there [01:33] LaserJock: i'm just going to chuckle when i see your name in the big interview lights [01:33] meanwhile i'll plug away in the dark =) [01:34] "lol, what's the freak doing on there?" is that how it's gonna be ;-) [01:34] "I though you had to ... you know ... do something" [01:34] * LaserJock ends his bddebian impersionation [01:35] except bdd is a big DD now [01:35] Hey! [01:35] :) [01:35] pfft [01:35] Still a lamer :) [01:35] whatever, the real lamers have no upload rights anywhere =) [01:36] crimsun's just too cool for upload rights :-) [01:38] hah, exactly :) [01:38] us mortals actually *need* permission [02:15] nothingman: http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/edubuntu-meeting-minutes-2/ [02:24] nubae: around? [02:25] thx, LaserJock! [03:26] Hey all. I just picked up a copy of Ubuntu and the Edubuntu addons. I wanted to use it for my daughter, who is 4, is that an appropriate age for the os? [04:49] sbalneav: around? [05:13] LaserJock: can u mentor me for doing some package management work? [05:13] I think that might be possible :-) [05:14] I figure u can do with some help, so I'll do my best, I've been following the motu podcasts, I guess that should help [05:15] u have something easy I could tackle? [05:18] hmm [05:18] right now we're fairly updated with the core packages [05:19] we could look at bugs or look at some Universe packages or even look at updating something beyond Debian [05:20] well, I got a list of our teams (the ones we want anyway) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha/Edubuntu/Teams [05:21] so beyond debian, u mean package something from source thats not yet in ubuntu/debian? [05:21] I think what we might want to do is create an Edubuntu Council team and make that owner of all the teams [05:22] nubae1: well, update an existing package to a version that's newer than what Debian has [05:22] ah ok [05:22] we are up-to-date as far as Debian is concerned (except moodle) [05:22] but some packages (like probably gcompris) have newer version available than what's in Debian [05:23] oh... I c... [05:23] is moodle a difficult one, is that why its not updated? [05:23] it's somewhat difficult I think, a lot more to think of than a generic desktop app [05:24] but I haven't had a chance to look at it [05:24] which means sort of nobody has looked at it [05:24] :-) [05:25] isnt the testers team kinda like buqsquad? [05:25] there's also a few moodle bugs that should be looked at [05:26] no, the testers team should be just testing Edubuntu apps out [05:26] they would *file* bugs [05:26] ok, for review like [05:26] yeah [05:26] a good area for newcomers to contribute to [05:26] the bugsquad is bug triage, tracking, and squashing [05:27] are the bugs usually upstream or package related? [05:28] most often upstream [05:29] one of the things we gotta do is send them upstream [05:29] that's a big part of the Bugsquad [05:29] ok [05:30] then upstream sends a fix and bugsquad triages [05:30] ? [05:30] well, often it trickles down [05:31] depending on the bug we may just send it on to Debian and let them deal with it [05:31] other times we'll talk to upstream directly and either get a patch from them (if it's important) or wait for them to release a new version with a fix [05:32] so either we find a bug and send directly do debian, or upstream, in which case upstream? [05:34] in which cases do we send it upstream? [05:35] yeah [05:36] there are a few reasons we might do that [05:37] 1) the Debian maintainer is unresponsive or hostile [05:37] 2) if it only affects Ubuntu for some reason [05:37] 3) if we have a good releationship with the upstream (like they hang out here or on the mailing list) [14:27] Hi [14:27] Does someone here know how ldm/ltspfs creates the socket /var/run/ldm_socket... to enable usb device to be mounted ? [14:31] Guest62686: try asking in #ltsp [14:59] That's what I'm doing too, but I think there are here some people able to answer here if nobody does in # ltsp [15:39] Morning all [15:41] *yawns* [19:02] where's mr laser [19:02] greets highvoltage [19:04] hey nubae [19:06] hey nubae, highvoltage [19:07] hi Lns [19:07] Lns: I was just thinking of you [19:07] either of you two using openpoffice presentation for slideshows? [19:07] highvoltage: uh oh, good thoughts i hope ;) [19:07] yeah [19:07] I've used it often [19:08] nubae: have you had it lock up before when viewing the slideshow? [19:08] highvoltage: ^^^ [19:08] never with me before [19:08] although I haven't used Impress with OOo 3 so much yet, it may have newer issues that I haven't encountered yet [19:08] no me either actually... seems to work quite well [19:09] Lns: is it always under the same conditions? [19:09] im getting reports from one school that everyone on a tc that tries to view the slideshow (minus maybe 1) locks up [19:09] highvoltage: different users, different slideshows, different thin clients (same hw though) [19:09] Lns: ah, I suggest you find out what they mean with "lock up" [19:09] heh [19:09] is it a temporary lock up? or do the machines freeze solidly? [19:09] highvoltage: as in ctrl+alt+backspace lock up [19:10] not solid, they can get back to login w/key combo [19:10] ah so net connection is still there [19:10] but the network connection may die temporarily. I'd still check the network, and that there's enough ram in the server [19:11] this is the only app that does it [19:11] is it a powerpoint file? [19:11] the network is great, server has 8gb ram [19:11] nubae: no, natively created in ooo [19:11] hmmm [19:11] yes, hmmm. [19:12] i remember a bug a while back here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openoffice.org/+bug/90543 [19:12] Launchpad bug 90543 in openoffice.org "Fiesty OpenOffice Impress crashes upon starting SLIDESHOW" [Undecided,Fix released] [19:12] Lns: does this occur with that same file on a standalone machine as well? [19:12] maybe its not really fixed [19:12] Lns: and how much RAM does the clients have? do you have swap over nbd enabled? [19:12] highvoltage: 128mb, and yes [19:13] (sorry for all the 'obvious' questions, but it's usually a good idea to just go through them) [19:14] highvoltage: ubuntu member? Im not sure [19:14] probably not, i have an lp acct' [19:15] ill brb have another issue (qb2k8 this time) to tend to [19:16] Lns: ah [19:18] back, kinda [19:54] weird, i cant reproduce the crash on my own ltsp network [19:59] Lns, maybe the bug is related to the graphics card driver [20:00] alkisg: i was wondering that, these are HP T series thin clients which are supposed to have no issues [20:00] hard to debug from console because oo-impress detaches after launching [20:05] Lns: can you help me for a sec with US age-grade level mapping? [20:05] LaserJock: sure, did RichEd give you the wikipedia link i sent him? [20:05] that explains all of them =) [20:06] no, I didn't get that, can you give me the link? [20:07] this isnt the one but it might link to the other countries too - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_grades_(US) [20:07] awesome, thanks [20:07] should have thought of wikipedia [20:07] ;) i found it from google [20:08] LaserJock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_stages [20:13] Lns: I'm trying to figure out where the primary/secondary line would be int he US [20:13] *in the [20:14] hmm, you dont normally hear the wordage pri/sec here [20:14] not in my area anyway [20:14] normally elementary, middle school/junior high, then high school [20:14] no, but it's what we're going to use for Edubuntu because it's more universal [20:14] I'm trying to figure out how to map them [20:15] I was thinking of doing Primary = grades 1-6 and Secondary = grades 7-12 [20:15] elementary school is K-6, middle is normally 7-8, high is 9-12 [20:15] in some districts middle/junior high is 7-9 [20:15] right, I need K [20:16] so I think if we squish middle into high [20:16] sure [20:16] makes sense [20:16] we get Primary = K-6 and Secondary = 7-12 [20:16] middle/junior is really more "serious" school [20:16] right, you start dividing into subjects [20:16] that makes sense [20:16] right [20:16] and different teachers instead of just one [20:17] yeah [20:17] that seems like a logical dividing line for apps [20:17] definitely [20:17] 7+ probably wouldnt want things like gcompris and friends [20:17] you move away from 1 app that does a lot to more individual, subject-specific apps [20:18] yeah. might be good to separate artwork too [20:18] i got feedback from an after school club that kids older than 12 didnt like the "childish" artwork in edubuntu [20:21] right [20:21] once we have these preschool, primary, secondary, tertiary designations and metapackages down [20:22] it'll be easy to add in appropriate artwork/themeing [20:24] most definitely [20:24] i think things will really start to move in the right direction when we have that [20:25] people will have more sense of "this is good for ME" type mentality [20:29] first we gotta figure out how to do all the packaging/seed work to get this going [20:41] r u going to have a local type of app menu for each designation? [20:42] by user or by mac address? [20:44] well, we'll have to see how that works out [20:44] sounds far too complicated right now [20:44] we do want to do local app menus but I'm not sure how that's going to get implemented [20:44] stgraber might have some idea [20:45] is that even in edubuntu scope? [20:45] so 50% of olpc got laid off... [20:45] omg :( [20:45] massively talented people... real shame [20:45] sugar is not completely on its own, officially [20:46] s/not/now [20:46] there needs to be some sort of non profit org. that can pay people like this, with donations from the community [20:47] well, I'm really uncertain if it's going to live [20:47] it's not a bad thing really. they will find jobs. more importantly, they will funnel eitehr into propietary software or oss [20:47] I think OLPC may be dead, it's been heading that way for quite some time [20:48] yeah, its no news to me, its just sad for the people laid off [20:48] many of them quit really good jobs to go work for the cause [20:48] and now their out in the cold with 2 days notice [20:48] how do you list that on a resume. got fired from a failing company?/ [20:50] I wonder what will happen with the existing deployments world wide... doesn't look like they'll get much support anymore from the mother organisation [20:50] I saw morgs got laid off from Sugar :( [20:50] everyone did [20:50] there have been no sugar paid employees for 3 months [20:50] but sugar has a strong community presence [20:51] at least we have that [20:51] now its up to us, the meta-company! [20:52] perhaps if we can get Sugar into Edubuntu proper we can help them out [20:52] hehe, indeed, I think to keep things like sugar alive, they'll need to be integrated in distros themselves [20:52] LaserJock: right [20:52] they've done a tremendous job with collaboration, nothing comes close to what is possible right now through their interface [20:54] and you know that better than anyone nubae :) seems like its up to us to pick up the pieces, before m$ comes across a clone and makes it better :p [20:56] LaserJock: I have to go through the process of renaming all the instances of edubuntu-addon to ubuntu education cd on the website [20:57] ok [20:57] I'm wondering if at the same time its not an idea to clarify what edubuntu is [20:57] now that we have a clearer picture [20:57] should I write something up and then have u look over it? [20:57] I'm trying to figure out how to the same with the download pages [20:57] well [20:57] I really want to keep the amount of text low [20:58] what page do you want to put the clarification on? [20:58] well we could 2 bullet points: edubuntu = community and selected universe maintained edu packages [20:58] ubuntu-edu = canonical supported edu apps in main [20:58] :p [20:59] i find it strange still that we're still using 2 different names [20:59] yeah but now at least we have a definition for what each one is [21:00] before it was like, well edubuntu is the community that makes ubuntu-edu [21:00] that made little sense to me [21:00] I'm not sure that people will understand the difference [21:00] well, if we make it clear that the distinction is in the packages [21:00] what do people need to know? [21:00] that should be clear [21:01] i think we're off to a good start though, for sure [21:01] so we list the packages under their respective names [21:01] I'm not sure the distinction needs to be end-user visible [21:01] LaserJock: that is true [21:01] it does if ubuntu plans on using the ubuntu-edu brand name [21:01] for most intents, users wont see edubuntu community stuff anyway unless theyre searching for specific things online [21:01] nubae: that's Ubuntu's issue and takes place on ubuntu.com/education [21:01] yeah, but we are talking about the online website ;-) [21:02] I think the only thing we need to do is addon -> Ubuntu Education CD [21:02] well, it certainly needs to be clear that ubuntu education are the officially supported packages [21:02] to cover our asses [21:03] we shouldn't really be talking about packages on the site though [21:03] applications then [21:03] we should talk about software and application bundles [21:03] yeah [21:03] and those are either supported or not [21:03] well, or however we want to call it [21:03] * LaserJock doesn't like "supported" [21:04] ok how about official and unofficial? [21:04] too grey I guess [21:04] well, that's no good because Universe is an official repo [21:04] main and recommended [21:05] i'd luv to particpate today, but i'm not feeling well :( [21:05] or base and recommended [21:05] the best I can think of at this point, even though I'm not fond of it, is Canonical-supported and community-supported [21:05] yeah thats the clearest [21:05] even though basically right now it's all community :-) [21:05] or maybe ubuntu supported and edubuntu supported [21:06] I don't think that'll work but it's a good thought [21:06] the problem is that Edubuntu is going to be supporting it all [21:06] arent there any other projects that do similar things we can get ideas from? [21:06] Lns: not really in Ubuntu [21:06] well, anywhere really [21:07] I can't think of any other distro that does it how we do [21:07] what about k-12 linux? [21:07] Fedora used to with Fedora Core and Fedora Extras [21:07] nah [21:07] ubuntu studio kinda does it [21:07] all other distros just have a single level repository [21:07] hmm [21:07] we have a 2-tiered system [21:08] i think "community supported" and "canonical supported" is a good idea [21:08] they have multimedia production specific [21:08] and general [21:09] the problem that I have with community/canonical supported is it's really irrelevant and untrue [21:09] yeah its just a way to make the ubuntu-edu brand name work [21:09] Canonical supported indicates that Canonical is soley responsible for the apps, that they produce it all, etc. [21:10] which just isn't true [21:10] how about main supported and universe supported [21:10] that's fairly meaningless to people [21:10] yeah [21:10] we're trying to explain it to people who don't know what main and universe are [21:10] main/extras wont work either? ive seen that in a lot of apps/bundled metapackages [21:11] or base and extras [21:11] and just explain in the descriptions of the packages [21:12] so here's where Ubuntu explains the components at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components [21:12] Yeah the easiest way that people will get this is by directing them to the app lists [21:12] "Canonical supported" to me (=newbie) means the same as in Synaptic Package Manager: the apps with the sign that says "Canonical provides critical updates for package-name until some-date". I like this description (ubuntu-edu = canonical supported and edubuntu = community supported), it's very clear [21:12] "The main distribution component contains applications that are free software, can freely be redistributed and are fully supported by the Ubuntu team." [21:12] here is list A (with explanation on page about support), here is list B [21:13] alkisg: right, except I have *real* issues with that statement and I feel Canonical has been very insensitive to the community by using it [21:13] it doesn't reflect who *really* supports it [21:14] OK, but that's a general problem, not with just edubuntu... [21:14] it assumes that the roughly %50 of Ubuntu Core Developers who aren't employed by Canonical don't exist [21:14] alkisg: yep [21:14] we could call it that and just put in a disclaimer saying: but right now the edubuntu community is the sole supporter of all the edu packages in edubuntu [21:14] nah [21:15] that's just confusing [21:16] its most compatible though [21:16] how about saying, apps that canonical is responsible for [21:16] but they aren't [21:16] well not in practice [21:16] but in theory they are :-) [21:16] not really [21:16] how about "apps that canonical thinks its responsible for" =p [21:16] heh [21:17] sigh [21:17] The next thing that was clear to me was the main/universe repository thing, it's something I learned very early in my Ubuntu-time. It doesn't matter if they're called "packages" instead of "applications", teachers can tell the difference. [21:17] yeah I think so too [21:17] and if they dont understand its quick to explain [21:18] reading the ubuntu.com description it looks to me like it should be "fully supported" and "community supported" [21:18] OK, the word "community" also provides good insight on the differences [21:19] the point of Main is it being fully supported, not *who* is supporting it [21:19] yeah that actually sounds the best till now [21:20] it's still a tad weird because for us "fully supported" = "fully supported by the Edubuntu community" [21:20] but I don't think we're going to find anything perfect ;-) [21:20] no, and thats still kind of true [21:20] we support apps in main more than those in universe [21:20] right [21:20] that's what I'd like to get across to users [21:21] Main == stuff we're really investing time into [21:21] well I think that full and community sound good [21:21] there is no canonical in there either [21:21] :-) [21:21] Universe == stuff we think is useful but can only spend a limited amout of effor on [21:21] so it could be regarded as fully supported by the edubuntu team [21:22] that wording has the closest relation to reality [21:22] * nubae just realises he has repeated what Laserjock wrote above... [21:22] So main = canonical AND community supported, universe = only community supported. Just put that on a web page and use the names "main" and "universe" in all other places... :) [21:23] (it took me quite some time to understand that main was also supported by the community... :)) [21:23] yeah the support thing has had many of us baffled, even those who have been using ubuntu for years [21:24] I would say something like "The Ubuntu Education CD is fully supported by Canonical and the Edubuntu community. Commercial support may be purches from Canonical for the applications found on the Ubuntu Education CD" [21:24] right [21:25] I think that's basically all we need to say, right? [21:25] yep, but we should mention that the other apps are only edubuntu community supported [21:25] and then maybe "The Edubuntu application bundles are supported on a best-effort basis by the Edubuntu community" [21:25] and also shortly define what edubuntu is! :) [21:26] cool, well I copied that into a text file and I'll use it in the website [21:26] wow, irc can actually be productive at times... :p [21:27] so we need to figure out where to put that stuff [21:28] I can try and really slim down the pages, but it should be mentioned in at least download and applications [21:28] hmm [21:28] which is what most people are hitting [21:28] I'm thinking maybe front page [21:28] Well, until it's cleared on people's minds, I'd say the start page is a good place to put them!!! [21:29] yeah front page too [21:29] yes [21:29] and package descriptions where applicable [21:30] I think essentially we're focusing the definiton of "Edubuntu" down pretty well onto these application bundles [21:30] right now we have this line which should be replaced with what we just cooked up: Edubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with community based support. [21:30] LaserJock: yeah its the glue... [21:30] yeah [21:30] highvoltage: ping [21:31] nubae, "Edubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system" ??? You lost me again...!!! [21:31] thats what needs to be replaced [21:31] :-) [21:31] Ah, ok [21:31] lol [21:31] *canofworms* [21:31] thats currently on the page right now, along with big edubuntu promises [21:31] i think the promises need to be taken out as thats covered with ubuntu [21:31] Ah, politicians and companies... never keep promises [21:32] I think we can take away the Edubuntu Promise [21:32] we need to really focus our wordage on whats specific to us [21:32] Lns: right [21:32] ok, let me go hack at the front page and show u guys a draft [21:33] hang on a sec [21:33] cool..i'll update the wiki after thats done to reflect the same [21:33] well, go ahead but I'm working on a mission statement here [21:33] ok [21:33] woots [21:33] I think we can boil all this down into a clear single statement of what Edubuntu is [21:34] totally [21:34] "Edubuntu is an education-focused project to bring the freedoms and spirit of Ubuntu to children, parents, students, teachers, and schools" [21:35] I think we should leave the first line in though, Ubuntu is ancient African word, blah blah [21:36] hrm.. [21:36] shouldnt we focus more on the fact that edubuntu community brings educational apps, games and artwork themes to ubuntu? [21:36] "Rather than an entirely seperate operating system, the Edubuntu community gives you the ability to easily install the best the open source software world has to offer educational users" [21:38] LaserJock: how about "The Edubuntu community provides the best open source educational software to Ubuntu" [21:39] "Edubuntu's objective is to create an integrated and usable computing experience for educational users by enhancing Ubuntu with an educational layer of applications, tools, content, and themes" [21:39] err, well grammar could be fixed [21:39] LaserJock: i like that last one a lot [21:39] I'm just tossing stuff out here, braindumping [21:39] i think the last one is the best description [21:40] we shouldn't put too much big wording in though... educational layer, computing experience... [21:40] nubae: how bout this: "duuurrrrrrrr" =p~~~ j/k, sorry, that just came out of nowhere [21:41] im in a very sarcastic mood [21:41] :-) [21:41] I just think we could say integrated experience... with educational applications, tools.... [21:42] ok so [21:42] how about "Edubuntu's objective is to create a customized experience for educational users by enhancing Ubuntu with educational applications, tools, content, and themes" [21:43]