=== joey_ is now known as homecable
=== emma_ is now known as emma
NCommanderdoes anyone know a good hexeditor?02:06
directhex(no i don't know if it's any good, but it's installed on here)02:06
NCommanderis it graphical?02:06
directhexyes. is that good or bad?02:07
NCommanderthat's good02:07
* NCommander needs to write some MAGIC02:07
directhexFANTASTIC MAGIC?02:08
directhexchrist on a bike, i should be in bed02:08
NCommanderPHOENIX magic ;-)02:08
directhexi was busy watching the merriment in #u-motu02:08
* NCommander notes that trying to cook phoenix meat however is an attempt at futatility02:08
Hobbseedirecthex: yes, i'm sharpening my stick, just in case ;002:09
StevenKNCommander: If we follow Harry Potter mentality, there is no meat to cook02:09
NCommanderHobbsee, do you have a specialized stick sharper, or just use a knife?02:10
directhexif we follow the x-men mentality, it's canibalism!02:10
HobbseeNCommander: neither.  I use fire and diamond.02:10
* NCommander is reminded of some sorta crappy rap song ...02:10
* directhex gives up; sleeps02:11
Hobbseenight directhex02:13
joe-machi all, i've been desperately trying to get the partman-auto-raid functionality to work in preseeding. i discovered the partman-auto-raid udeb is not in the install tree. i basically just need to know at this point, how do you tell the debian installer to recognize a new udeb, without going through the process of building a whole new install tree?02:42
StevenKanna-install or something similar02:43
TheMusoThats if the package metadata knows about the udeb in the first place.02:45
joe-macThanks for teh response guys, so TheMuso by package metadata you mean the Packages file for that tree under the pool?02:47
TheMusojoe-mac: Yes, the file that stores all info about a package, its name, version, MD5sums etc.02:47
joe-macalright, i'll look into this anna-install, and add the package to the Packages file. i really hope that works... won't be able to tell til tomorrow morning, but thanks first glimmer of hope i've had all day02:48
=== asac_ is now known as asac
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=== asac_ is now known as asac
calcanyone happen to know the name of the wiki blueprint/spec template?05:10
persiacalc, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecTemplate ?05:11
calcah yes that's it :)05:11
persiaFor namespace conservation reasons, I'd advocate putting your result at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/${ camelcase(blueprint_name)}05:13
dholbachgood morning06:30
roccity_does any think that there may be a need for a user name generator in ubuntu07:13
roccity_for corps and such?07:13
lukehasnonameI don't know who would be responsible for this... by default, in .bashrc, the block that loads .bash_aliases if it exists is commented out. 1) Why is that? It seems pointless to have the code in there by default, the way it is designed, if you're going to comment it out. 2) Who could change this?07:13
roccity_or is it best to leave that to the techs of the company07:14
pittiGood morning07:18
StevenKMorning pitti!07:18
persiaroccity_, Probably best to leave that to organisations: there's far too many different schemes in use.07:19
=== warp10_ is now known as warp10
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=== hyperair1 is now known as hyperair
=== hyperair1 is now known as hyperair
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
=== warp10_ is now known as warp10
thekornpitti, hello, I created lp:~thekorn/apport/api.launchpadlib this morning, don't know if this makes sense at this stage, but it's working09:05
pittithekorn: cool!09:06
pittithekorn: unfortunately, as I said, I can't use launchpadlib from ronne (where the retracer lives) until its networking gets fixed09:06
* pitti hugs thekorn09:07
thekornpitti, yes, so get this networking fixed ;)09:07
* thekorn hugs pitti back09:07
fabbionemorning guys10:24
fabbioneany archive admin around that could please process NEW for redhat-cluster in jaunty?10:24
fabbionehi soren10:25
fabbionesoren: the last updates to libvirtd in hardy are crap. They overwrote my configurations10:28
fabbionesoren: got default network back again and all the machines that were supposed to autostart didn't because the autostart symlinks were purged10:28
=== james_w` is now known as james_w
doko__lool: mbr tests fail on 32bit11:02
looldoko__: I know; but only on the official buildds; not on my host nor on ppa buildds11:05
doko__infinity: ^^^11:05
looldoko__: You're welcome if you like to look into it; IIRC it fails in mmap() or something11:06
cjwatsonfabbione: done11:07
fabbionecjwatson: thanks a lot11:09
loolSo I have an issue with autoreconf -fi in rpm; it ends up replacing po/Makefile.in.in with gettext's, but gettext's doesn't define top_builddir yet uses it11:09
loolThe build ends up failing not finding "/config.status" because of this target:11:10
loolMakefile: Makefile.in.in Makevars $(top_builddir)/config.status @POMAKEFILEDEPS@11:10
loolMy understanding is that gettext's Makefile.in.in should have a top_builddir = @top_builddir@ snippet at the top11:10
lool(e.g. intltool's does it)11:12
cjwatsonlool: top_builddir is set in Makevars11:16
cjwatsonor should be - it's in the template11:16
loolAha, after the autoreconf, there isn't the -# Makevars gets inserted here. (Don't remove this line!)11:16
loolAh there is, just saw the removal in the diff11:16
cjwatsonthis can happen when you do gettextize and intltoolize in the wrong order11:17
cjwatson(or similar)11:17
loolcjwatson: I'm just running autoreconf -fi11:17
cjwatsonI bet that your po/Makefile.in.in is not really the one from gettext, but is rather the one from intltool11:17
* lool rekicks the build11:17
cjwatsonor is some other broken thing11:18
loolcjwatson: Well the one from intltool sets top_builddir and this one doesn't11:18
cjwatsonintltool does because it doesn't have Makevars to do it11:18
loolcjwatson: I see the Makevars line, but it doesn't get replaced with a top_builddir11:24
loolcjwatson: Actually the line stays in Makefile11:25
loolconfigure.ac has AM_GNU_GETTEXT_VERSION([0.11.2])11:26
cjwatsonif the "inserted here" line is getting removed from Makefile.in.in, that would seem to be the problem ...11:26
loolcjwatson: No it's not11:26
loolcjwatson: It's still in the po/Makefile during the build11:27
cjwatsonbut Makevars isn't?11:27
loolcjwatson: I see vars, not sure whether these are the Makevars, but no top_builddir11:27
cjwatsonthis source looks broken11:28
cjwatsonI think, actually, it's from a really old version of gettext11:28
loolI see the sed in config.status11:28
cjwatsonand that attempting to autoreconf it with current tools is liable to blow up11:28
cjwatsonit needs a decent upstream11:28
loolcjwatson: Ok; I wished to fix the FTBFS without going with a new upstream release11:29
loolBut it seems that's not easy11:29
cjwatsonhave you tried using its autogen.sh (possibly fixing it to use --install where appropriate)?11:29
cjwatsonthat doesn't run autopoint11:29
loolOk; will try that11:29
Keybukcjwatson: so I'm trying to decide whether I need to add Depends: udev to cope with the /etc->/lib transition11:31
Keybukwhat do you think?11:31
pittiseb128: F9 to F11 started controlling volume/mute for me yesterday; do you get that as well?11:31
cjwatsonKeybuk: to what package?11:31
Keybukall of them11:31
loolKeybuk: Did you see #314879 BTW11:31
Keybuknone of the packages currently shipping udev rules have any form of dep on udev11:32
loolI guess so, but when in doubt11:32
cjwatsonKeybuk: it seems more like udev Breaks: (everything else)11:32
Keybukwhich, given the rule files tendancy to change11:32
seb128pitti: no but I didn't dist-upgrade yet11:32
cjwatsonKeybuk: pcmciautils Depends: udev11:32
seb128pitti: that's not likely due to a GNOME change though, could be acpi or something?11:32
Keybuklool: no, but I suspect that has more to do with soren11:32
pittiKeybuk: but for some packages it might even be justified to not depend on udev11:32
Keybukcjwatson: that's the one package I didn't touch :-)11:33
pittiseb128: haven't looked into it at all yet11:33
loolKeybuk: downgrading udev fixes it?!11:33
Keybukpitti: you can't not have udev in Ubuntu11:33
cjwatsonactually the new package definitely Breaks: udev (<< 136-1) surely?11:33
sorenKeybuk: What did I do now?11:33
Keybuksoren: I mean that's what you're looking into, no?11:33
Keybukcjwatson: isn't Breaks the wrong way round?11:33
cjwatsonwhich seems like a more appropriate relation11:33
Keybukthat deconfigures udev, rather than the package11:33
sorenOh, right. I just saw my name mentioned and wasn't caught up on scollback :)11:34
cjwatsonKeybuk: in practice it forces udev to be upgraded :)11:34
Keybukthat sounds sane then11:34
cjwatsonthe alternative is putting Breaks in udev but I can see why you might find that painful to maintain11:35
Keybukif I apt-get install one of these packages from jaunty onto intrepid11:35
Keybukwill it upgrade udev?11:35
Keybukand if I dpkg -i one, will it complain about udev being too old?11:35
cjwatson1) yes provided apt has a source for the new udev 2) er not sure, worth a test11:36
Keybuk installing libmtp8 would break udev, and11:39
Keybuk deconfiguration is not permitted11:39
Keybukif you follow its instruction, it "deconfigures" udev11:40
loolsoren: Oh you're chasing that boot on lvm udev issue?11:40
Keybukforcing that does complain that you need to upgrade udev11:40
loolKeybuk: Did you notice a couple of conffiles show up as obsolete now?  You might want to rm_conffile them11:40
Keybukso other than the language, that looks ok11:40
Keybuklool: example?11:40
loolKeybuk: In the bug report11:40
Keybuksoren: we should use Breaks then11:40
Keybuklool: which report?11:41
StevenKcjwatson: So, according to the ubuntu-mid build log, germinate is breaking due to libavcodec being pulled in -- from what I can see, nothing in the seeds should pull it in, could I bug you have a quick look when you can?11:41
lool% dpkg-query -W -f='${Conffiles}' udev | grep obsolete /etc/udev/rules.d/05-udev-early.rules 01cc7968762a9a6590801ac94f585d44 obsolete /etc/udev/rules.d/66-persistent-storage-edd.rules 5dc9376604e2266886c6be1c7a467222 obsolete11:41
Keybukthose are both very old rules11:42
Keybuk05-udev-early was rm'd in upgrade from feisty to gutsy11:43
sorenStevenK: Isn't that even blacklisted?11:43
KeybukI didn't think we ever shipped a 66-persistent-storage-edd.rules file11:43
StevenKsoren: It is blacklisted, which is why germinate is having a hissy fit11:43
Keybukthat could have been from a PPA or something?11:43
cjwatsonthe blacklist syntax is pretty crude which is why I discourage it for most purposes (libavcodec is one of the few sensible uses)11:44
cjwatsonStevenK: will do11:44
Keybukcjwatson: yup, this works11:44
Keybukwhere we don't have a Depend on udev, we should have a Breaks11:44
sorenKeybuk: I think I understand the reasoning, but it still looks a bit wierd that all those packages break udev, since it certainly feel sht other way around :)11:44
cjwatson? Package libavcodec51 blacklisted in ship-live but seeded in extra (mpeg4ip-server)11:45
cjwatsonis what the log says11:45
Keybuksoren: all those packages Depend on udev, so it looks weird to me that they don't ;)11:45
cjwatsonsoren: I agree that it's slightly twisty11:45
sorenKeybuk: Heh :)11:45
StevenKcjwatson: Which doesn't exist in mobile.jaunty ...11:45
cjwatsonin general I do not particularly object to adding udev dependencies in Ubuntu, although respect the case where package maintainers don't want to11:45
cjwatsonStevenK: extra, by definition, is synthesised by germinate11:45
* Keybuk still doesn't buy this whole "but I might want to uninstall udev" nonsense11:45
Keybukit obviously makes sense in Debian11:46
cjwatsonexactly why it's showing up here I haven't figured out yet11:46
Keybukbecause there's a very good reason to want to uninstall udev in Debian11:46
Keybukbut since Marco isn't an Ubuntu maintainer ...11:46
sorenKeybuk: What might that reason be? Do they still have devfs kernels or some such? Or are you thinking for embedded systems or something?11:46
cjwatsonI think this is argumentum ad hominem, actually ;-)11:47
directhexagainst whom? d'itri?11:48
sorencjwatson: Ah :)11:48
Mithrandirudev in Debian generally works fine those days.11:49
sorenOk, so the verdict is to add "breaks: udev (<< 136-1)", fix up the paths in the initramfs hook scripts, and nothing else? No dependency on udev?11:50
Keybuksoren: if you have a dep on udev, increase it11:50
Keybuklvm needs it put back, I removed it by mistale11:50
KeybukI think mdadm should have a Dep too11:51
Keybuksince it relies on udev these days11:51
Keybukdevmapper needs a Breaks11:51
sorenKeybuk: lvm still needs the watershed dependency, right? It's gone from udev, AFAIUI?11:52
Keybukafter talking with Kay, we opted not to include watershed upstream because the only program that needs it is lvm and our opinion is that lvm is broken11:52
Keybuk(lvm needs to grow incremental assembly support)11:52
* soren nodes11:52
sorennods, even.11:52
loolKeybuk: these conffiles show up on both of my jaunty systems; installed around gutsy I believe11:53
Keybuklool: *shrug* you upgrade through development releases and probably install test packages I make from time to time11:53
Keybukjust rm them and delete the lines from status? :)11:53
loolAre you confident they wont be there for regular users?11:53
KeybukI've upgraded this machine only on major releases since warty, and they're not there11:54
loolOk, thanks11:55
cjwatsonStevenK: this is a very interesting little problem. :)11:55
StevenKcjwatson: Heh11:55
cjwatsonI *think* it's a germinate bug11:56
sorenKeybuk: What if someone (for whatever reason) just installs the new udev (without updating all the other stuff)? That will obviously break, but do we care?11:57
Keybukit won't break11:57
Keybukwell, not entirely true; it'll probably ignore some of the rules11:58
sorenIt clearly breaks.11:58
sorenThat's what that bug is about.11:59
soren..and that's why my laptop fails to boot.11:59
Keybukoh, that'll break, true11:59
Keybukupgrade lvm then ;)11:59
sorenA.k.a.: we don't care :)11:59
Keybukthere's no way to express this kind of thing11:59
sorenOther than inverting the Breaks.11:59
Keybukyou can't provide ABIs with dpkg, like you can in RPM12:00
KeybukI'm not having a Breaks in udev listing every single package that ships a udev rule12:00
Keybukthat's insane12:00
sorenI agree.12:00
sorenBut it's possible.12:00
sorenJust because it's possible doesn't mean we want to do it :)12:00
Keybukjust thought12:00
Keybukdmsetup needs a Depend on udev12:00
cjwatsonyou certainly can provide ABIs with dpkg; you can implement this kind of thing with Provides and a bit of creativity12:01
Keybukbecause it ships an initramfs-hook that assumes udev is installed12:01
Keybukcjwatson: not in a way that would help soren's problem12:01
KeybukProvides: udev-abi-412:01
sorenNot now, anyway.12:01
KeybukConflicts: udev-abi-1, udev-abi-2, udev-abi-312:01
sorenIf we had done that from the start, sure.12:01
Keybukor maybe Breaks12:02
loolI don't think it's insane to add Breaks in udev; we did add Conflicts in libgtk for all gtk 2.4.0 modules12:02
loolAnd we added an ABI provides12:02
loolProvides: gtk2.0-binver-2.10.012:02
Keybukudev doesn't even have a stable ABI12:02
Keybukevery package that ships a udev rule should depend on an exact version of udev12:02
Keybukbut they don't12:02
* soren needs lunch12:03
=== fdd is now known as corge
Keybukafter some playing around, it doesn't matter which way you put the Breaks12:11
Keybukthe net effect is always the same12:11
Keybukif you put the Breaks on udev for lvm, you can't upgrade udev without breaking lvm12:11
Keybukbut you can still upgrade lvm without upgrading udev (and hit the same bug from the opposite direction)12:12
Keybukit makes sense to me that the Breaks should be on the "lesser" package12:12
Keybukbecause people are more likely to backport backinstall those12:12
Keybukso if someone grabs the lvm from jaunty, they'll be forced to upgrade udev12:13
Keybuk(which matches the and upgrade libc, etc.) pattern12:13
Keybukwhereas people rarely backport udev ;)12:13
Keybukpitti: \o/12:20
Keybukdevicekit (002-0ubuntu1) jaunty; urgency=low12:21
pittihuzzah :)12:21
pittiKeybuk: DK-power is now current as well12:21
KeybukI saw12:21
ion_Why 002 instead of, say, 2?12:21
pittiI think I properly udevified it, please yell at me if not12:21
Keybukion_: upstream version number scheme12:21
pittiion_: *shrug* I just took what upstream used12:21
Keybukpitti: question about sane-backends12:22
Keybukwhy did you remove the code to create the scanner group?12:22
pittiKeybuk: because we don't install the udev rule any more, and thus we don't need it in sane-utils12:23
Keybukbut the very next line of the postinst assumes the scanner group exists12:23
Keybukand tries to add the user to it12:23
pittiwhich user?12:23
Keybuk    # Create saned user/group if they do not exist12:23
Keybuk    if ! getent passwd | grep -q "^saned:"; then12:23
Keybuk        echo "Adding saned group and user..."12:23
Keybuk        adduser --quiet --system --no-create-home --group saned || true12:23
Keybuk    fi12:23
Keybuk    if [ "$SANED_IN_SCANNER" = "true" ]; then12:23
Keybuk        adduser --quiet saned scanner12:23
Keybuk    else12:23
Keybuk        if id saned | grep -q "groups=.*\(scanner\)"; then12:23
Keybuk            deluser --quiet saned scanner12:23
Keybuk        fi12:23
Keybuk    fi12:24
KeybukSANED_IN_SCANNER would appear to be true12:24
pittiKeybuk: merge error then, thanks for spotting12:24
liwhm, piuparts should catch that kind of error12:24
Keybukwe don't put anything in scanner anymore, so it's utterly pointless12:24
Keybukso maybe just remove that bit? :)12:24
pittiKeybuk: hm, then saned would not work at all12:24
Keybukwhy wouldn't it?12:25
pittibecause it can't access the device?12:25
pitti(it's a daemon)12:25
Keybukbut there's no scanner group anymore ;)12:25
pittiright, and it's broken either way12:25
pittijust pondering whether we want to do anythign to unbreak it12:25
Keybukwell, unbreaking the postinst would be nice ;P12:26
pittiKeybuk: do you happen to have some time to do that? I'm in quite a time crunch ATM12:26
KeybukI can add it to my todo12:26
pittitrying to get some stuff sorted before I leave tomorrow 6 am for a week..12:26
pittiKeybuk: appreciated, thanks12:26
dholbachcan somebody massage the ubuntu-devel-announce@ queue? :)12:43
cjwatsondholbach: done12:44
dholbachcjwatson: gracias!12:44
LaibschCan somebody please upload my patch from bug 254228 to intrepid-proposed?  It fixes a quite serious error in sqlite313:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 254228 in sqlite3 "division error in sqlite 3.5.9-5" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25422813:04
stefanlsdlool: still getting that magick/api.h: No such file or directory for imview with new imagemagick13:19
ogratjaalton, any hint for me how to handle evtouch to get it building again ? is there any replacement for xf86Version.h ?13:20
StevenKcjwatson: Any news about my germinate issue before I scamper off to bed?13:21
Laneyslangasek: <slomo> gnome-sharp2 first needs gnome-desktop-sharp2 to be packaged13:28
tjaaltonogra: nope, dropping that include doesn't help (it's not needed anymore)13:29
ograwell, its one of the issues13:30
ograi understood that there was a evtouch version in experimental, but i seem unable to find it13:30
ograi was hoping that builds13:30
tjaaltonthere isn't13:31
ograweird ... soeone said the new upstrem version was there13:31
cjwatsonStevenK: oh, sorry, I was working on it and got distracted by ext4 stuff. One minute13:31
tjaaltonogra: I doubt 0.8.8 works any better13:32
cjwatsonStevenK: ok, the last seed in STRUCTURE is special, as documented in germinate(1)13:32
ograyeah, it just includes my changes actually13:32
cjwatsonStevenK: so ship-live was getting all the build-dependencies added to it which was kind of bad13:32
ograbut i would like to get it building13:33
cjwatsonStevenK: I'll fix the seeds13:33
cjwatsoncoo, ext4 resizing in the installer even works13:34
StevenKcjwatson: Okay, cool. Thanks. :-)13:35
cjwatsonStevenK: (done)13:35
ogracjwatson, btw i think ted mentioned in his ext4 talk that you shouldnt expect the performance gains with a converted ext3->4 fs13:36
ogra(you didnt mention that in your mail)13:36
cjwatsonno, feel free13:36
cjwatsonI didn't have the reference so didn't want to shoot my mouth off based on hearsay13:37
ograyeah, i only remember it vaguely either from the talk13:37
ograno details in my head13:37
cjwatsonI would have expected that to be because existing files aren't converted to extents13:38
Keybuksoren: ugh, you unequivocally just remove the old udev rules?13:44
Keybukyou should almost certainly check whether or not the user has modified them first13:44
Keybuksoren: devmapper needs the b-d of debhelper increasing to pick up the new udev behaviour13:46
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== pedro__ is now known as pedro_
sorenKeybuk: I remove the old udev rules?13:57
sorenKeybuk: Oh, because of debhelper putting them in a different place?13:57
Keybuksoren: it looks like it, in the preinst?13:57
Keybukin lvm2/mdadm?13:57
sorenI haven't touched maintainer scripts at all.13:57
Keybukuploaded devmapper with fixed b-d13:58
sorenI don't see why it's needed, to be honest.13:59
Keybukif I download this source and build it13:59
Keybukbut don't update devmapper13:59
Keybukit'll be a *different* package to the one on the buildds13:59
soren"this source"?13:59
Keybukdevmapper 2:1.0.27-4ubuntu213:59
sorenIf you download devmapper and build it, but don't update it?13:59
Keybukif I build this as-is, but don't update *debhelper* (I keep doing that! :p)14:00
sorenGo on, it might sink it at some point :)14:00
Keybukthen I'll have a different package14:00
Keybukit will have different contents14:00
Keybukyou could claim that's desired14:00
Keybuk*except* the contents won't match the initramfs hook in the package14:00
Keybukso update-initramfs will fail because /lib/udev/rules.d/blahblahblah won't exist14:00
sorenThat's a good point.14:00
Keybukthe only justification I can think of for not always bumping build-dependencies is to make backporting less painful14:01
Keybukbut I honestly think that the pain is a feature here14:01
soren*nod*, but only due to the initramfs hooks.14:02
sorenOh, wait.14:02
KeybukI think package contents and maintainer scripts being different if you build it two different ways is a bug14:02
sorenif the user has put rules in /etc/udev/rules.d to override something... Shouldn't we be putting those in initramfs, too?14:02
KeybukI could switch to a chroot, do dpkg-buildpackage *and never realise* that I had to update debhelper14:02
Keybuksoren: honestly?14:03
Keybukno :)14:03
Keybukthere's so many things we don't copy into initramfs right now14:03
sorenThat's true, but this could be a regression for some people.14:03
sorenIf they have local changes in the lvm rules, they will be used to having them in initramfs, but that will no longer be the case.14:04
sorenI can't imagine what they'd be doing in there, but still.14:04
Keybukthe whole point of the move to /lib is to *stop* people making local changes to these things14:04
Keybukif you can find someone legitimately doing it, then we'll work out how to make it so they don't need to :p14:04
loolstefanlsd: I didn't get that in my ppa, but it's probably because it sees main/universe stuff14:05
loolstefanlsd: is this with the current jaunty version or a new one?14:05
sorenKeybuk: I see your point.14:05
sorenKeybuk: To get back to the chroot case for a minute..14:06
stefanlsdlool: one coming in from debian. 1.1.9c14:06
sorenKeybuk: I'm still not completely convinced. The versioned dependency (be it explicit or not) is really between debhelper and udev.14:06
loolstefanlsd: Ok, then your issue is a different one I would guess; did you diff the configure.in changes?  Can you hand me a .dsc to look at?14:07
Keybuksoren: no it's not14:07
Keybukdebhelper is a package build tool14:07
sorenKeybuk: debhelper is the one changing incompatibly14:07
sorenKeybuk: I realise.14:07
Keybukdebhelper is a short-cut for not doing stuff in debian/rules itself14:08
sorenThat's why I said earlier that there really is no sane way to express this relationship.14:08
loolstefanlsd: Right, as I suspected there are changes in the configure.in14:08
stefanlsdlool: yeah. thats it. I just did get it to compile by uncommenting line 769 of configure.in14:08
lool-                       CPPFLAGS="$CPPFLAGS "`pkg-config ImageMagick --cflags`14:08
lool+                        MAGICKNAME=$(pkg-config ImageMagick --libs-only-l | sed 's/-l//')14:08
loolThis is really scary14:08
Keybukright, we don't _really_ have this kind of flexibility14:09
sorenKeybuk: short of having dh_installdev add a versioned udev dependency to ${misc:Depends} or something.14:09
Keybukbut as long as you're always moving forwards, things tend to work out :)14:09
stefanlsdso essentially CPPFLAGS="$CPPFLAGS "`Magick-config --cppflags`14:09
loolstefanlsd: The configure changes are crackful; they shouldn't be using AC_CHECK_LIB manually with pkg-config calls at the other end of the configure.in14:09
sorens/dh_installdev/dh_installudev/ obviously.14:10
loolstefanlsd: The configure.in might use AC_CHECK_LIB for compat with very old imagemagick, but I'd recommend simply using PKG_CHECK_MODULES unconditionally14:10
sorenKeybuk: I feel this discussion is really about choosing the lesser of a number of evils. I see the argument for a versioned b-d on debhelper, certainly. I just wasn't completely convinced by it.14:11
Keybuksoren: when I was considering dpkg2, one of my ideas was to take versioned dependencies away again14:11
sorenOTOH, I'm not insistant against it.14:11
Keybukbecause they don't actually work in practice14:11
loolstefanlsd: Search for Imagemagick in xine-lib's configure.ac for an example; it's not perfect style but it's good enough14:12
Keybukin reality, you want something more like .so versions14:12
cjwatsonversioned deps are good for some things but not others14:12
cjwatsonin many cases feature dependencies would be more appropriate, but I'm not sure "many" = "all"14:12
Keybukcjwatson: possibly14:12
* soren concurs with cjwatson14:12
Keybukthere may be situations where they are equally appropriate14:12
loolstefanlsd: Is that good enough to get you going?14:13
Keybukit'd be an interesting exercise to think of situations where they are less appropriate14:13
cjwatsonI've worked with a system where we only had feature dependencies; it wasn't that they were *inappropriate*, but they were kind of cumbersome sometimes14:13
cjwatsonif it was just for one-off things it was cumbersome; for anything complicated it was great14:13
Keybukthe problem with versioned dependencies is you tend to do:14:14
Keybuk  Depend: foo (>= whatever-version-I-need)14:14
cjwatsona system that supported both would be the best of both worlds, in my mind14:14
Keybukwhich will always shoot you in the foot if a later version of foo isn't compatible14:14
Keybukand you can't go back in time and undo it14:14
Keybukbut then in practice, the dpkg/apt world is always moving forwards14:15
Keybukyou move from 8.04 to 8.10 to 9.0414:15
cjwatsonfor udev, that's a very valid concern, but there are plenty of other situations where it's not a problem14:15
Keybukso as long as you stay in that direction, things work out14:15
cjwatsonand yes, indeed14:15
Keybukcjwatson: all library packages too ;)14:15
Keybukdebhelper, cdbs, other build-tools as well14:15
sorenThere's really very little about the package relationships that is in any way guaranteed to be true forever.14:16
cjwatsonif the reason for your dependency is that you need a feature, you want to depend on the presence of a feature14:16
cjwatsonif the reason for your dependency is that previous versions were screwed, then it's often a bit too cumbersome to define a feature "not-screwed-any-more"14:16
cjwatsonbugs will always screw you over ...14:16
Keybukhmm, true14:16
Keybukdepending on a version with a known bugfix is compelling14:17
loolAnd then you can also conditionalize which features you want to build in this package and which features in other packages this requires and we have combinatory explosion and useless packages  \o/14:17
stefanlsdlool: not a configure expert, but i'll give it a try. thanks!14:17
Keybuklool: we have that now ;)14:17
cjwatsonlool: oh, I'm not arguing for USE flags!14:17
Keybuk"oh, no, that's _only_ a Recommends" *argh*14:17
loolcjwatson: It was too tempting to bend the discussion   :-P14:18
Keybukconary has a kinda cute feature14:18
Keybukfor lack of a better term, packages can have flavours14:18
Keybukso you can have foo-with-gnome or foo-with-kde or just foo-with-gtk14:18
loolstefanlsd: if you don't manage, I'm happy to try to hepl14:18
stefanlsdlool: thanks a lot.14:20
Mithrandirlool: sorry about sucking utterly; I have merged your pkg-config stuff, but haven't gotten around to writing up a changelog for it yet.14:21
=== asac_ is now known as asac
dokopitti, calc: please could you get OOo building today, so that we can include it in the next alpha?14:35
loolMithrandir: Cool, thanks14:38
pitticalc: depwaiting on libstlport4.6-dev; can we please build it against libstlport5.1-dev and MIR that?14:39
loolMithrandir: The two things I'd care about after that would be 1) an opinion on using new flags instead of changing the semantics of requires.private and 2) pushing whatever the resulting pkg-config is to Debian/Ubuntu  ;-)14:40
Keybuk    Definition Status: Discussion => Drafting14:44
Keybuklool: I didn't attend that because I thought we'd agreed it was a Bad Idea(tm)14:45
Keybukis that back on the cards14:45
loolKeybuk: Assuming you mean squashfs-initrd?  It basically was an idea thrown on IRC which ended up with "Let's discuss it at UDS" for some reason, but with absolutely nobody clueful enough to comment on the feasibility and benefit; the idea was that if you mount a filesystem instead of decompressing a full initramfs you can immediately start running its contents without reading it in full; also it made the thing a tiny bit smaller, but that's uninte14:47
cjwatsoncut off at "uninte", in case there was more after that than just "resting"14:48
Mithrandirlool: /script load splitlong.pl :-)14:48
loolNo, just "uninteresting"; thanks for the notice14:48
loolMithrandir: thanks :)14:48
pittiseb128: gdm-upgrade spec reviewed, needs some clarification14:48
seb128pitti: ok, I noticed that tedg was set a drafter btw, should that be changed?14:49
KeybukI now have images of lool in a corset14:49
pittiseb128: if you are happy with drafting it further, sure14:49
loolMithrandir: The plugin doesn't seem to set splitlong_max_length; which value did you set it to?14:49
seb128pitti: well I didn't notice that tedg was set as drafter before updating the wiki and changing the blueprint then14:50
Mithrandirlool: it's 512 by default, I think.14:50
Mithrandirlool: I've never explicitly configured it, but it seems to work for me anyway.14:50
seb128pitti: I'm fine editing the spec, I'm not sure about the autologin thing though, that's not something available in ubuntu right now, do you know what team is working on that?14:50
loolOh right there's a default at another place in the script14:50
lool$maxlength = 497 - length($server->{nick} . $server->{userhost} . $target);14:50
loolKeybuk: Assuming you mean squashfs-initrd?  It basically was an idea thrown on IRC which ended up with "Let's discuss it at UDS" for some reason, but with absolutely nobody clueful enough to comment on the feasibility and benefit; the idea was that if you mount a filesystem instead of decompressing a full initramfs you can immediately start running its contents without reading it in full; also it made the thing a tiny bit smaller, but that's ...14:52
lool... uninteresting14:52
loolWorks a charm14:52
=== sjoerd_ is now known as sjoerd
loolKeybuk: I understand from your vision of me in a corset that you don't think that makes any difference?14:53
liwmvo, I've edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/JauntyCruftRemover -- when you have time, I'd like feedback14:53
KeybukRocky Horror, innit14:53
KeybukShiver with anticip14:53
loolKeybuk: ?14:55
Keybuklool: NM :)14:55
Keybukin summary:14:56
Keybuk- you can compress an initrd with whatever you like, provided the kernel has built-in support for mounting it14:56
Keybuk- initrd is a filesystem14:56
Keybuk- initramfs is a compressed cpio file, tagged onto the end of the kernel14:56
Keybuk- initrd and initramfs are used at *different points* of the kernel boot process14:56
Keybuk(effectively an initrd is used instead of the real root, whereas an initramfs is used instead of much of the kernel's init procedure)14:57
loolSo far I understood all of that14:57
Keybukthe initrd has to be loaded into a ramdisk,14:58
Keybukthe metadata examined,14:58
Keybukand it has to be mounted14:58
Keybukthat takes X seconds14:58
Keybukthe initramfs only has to be uncompressed into a tmpfs14:58
Keybukthat takes Y seconds14:58
KeybukI'm not sure anyone's done practical timings of the difference between X and Y14:59
Keybukespecially since with the initramfs, Z seconds of kernel code is omitted14:59
loolI guess since the bootloader will always load them in full, it probably doesn't make a big one14:59
Keybukit wouldn't surprise me if the speed benefit of not decompressing it first14:59
Keybukis outweight by the fact you have to decompress it all anyway14:59
Keybukand I can't imagine you're talking more than ms difference15:00
loolOk; also I understand we try to get rid of the initramfs completely in jaunty15:01
loolHow will that work for lvm?15:01
calcpitti: already got another build going just have to test the resulting debs this morning before upload15:01
calcpitti: and i disabled stlport entirely in it15:01
pittiah, good15:02
pitticalc: so the two java libs are the only remaining blockers now?15:02
calcpitti: yes afaik15:03
pitticalc: ok, I'll promote them to main now and make the bug jaunty blockers, so that the libs get fixed in time15:04
calcpitti: ok15:05
calcpitti: i'll get the new OOo build uploaded in a few hours, i have to test then it takes around 1.5-2 hr to upload due to my 512kbps upload rate15:06
Keybuklool: if you use LVM, you need to use the initramfs15:06
pitticalc: hm, xom is FTBFS15:06
calcpitti: yea very strange issue with that one, it worked on my machine then FTBFS when uploaded15:07
dokopitti, calc: can we get the OOo related MIR's resolved today? and OOo 3.0 included for alpha-3?15:07
pitticalc: I gave it back, just for fun, and promote the old binaries for now (ugh)15:07
calcpitti: ok15:07
pittidoko: probably not resolved, but tentatively promoted already (just doing)15:07
calcdoko: well trying the xom FTBFS is very odd at least to me, heh15:07
calcdoko: but since pitti is just promoting it regardless it should work15:08
mvoliw: I have a look15:09
* calc installing the packages now to see if they blow up still15:10
dokomvo: for alpha-3: Notify Michael Vogt to perform a GnomeAppInstallDesktopDatabaseUpdate15:11
dokopitti: for alpha-3: Discuss with Desktop team and MartinPitt whether or not to re-enable apport by default.15:11
pittidoko: currently enabled now; retracers for jaunty don't work, though15:12
pittidoko: I'd say we leave it enabled, and if seb128 drowns in the unprocessed flood, we'll disable it again15:12
pitticalc: failed again, hm15:13
seb128pitti: if we have no retracers I would disable it, we will just collect bugs which will not be retracable when we restart those anyway, jaunty change quickly so versions will be outdated15:14
pittiseb128: okay, I'll disable it; I'm still unable to work around the lp timeout15:15
pittiseb128: I'll play with them a bit more, and if I fail, I'll upload a new apport this evening15:16
seb128pitti: lpi is broken too, the IRC bot tends to timeout when being asked for bugs, I think that's a launchpad isue15:16
pittiseb128: I just wonder why it doesn't affect intrepid crash reports15:17
seb128that's weird indeed15:17
sochas that recent openssl/libssl update changed how key unlocking works?15:21
socbecause since that update, i can't unlock my ssh keys anymore15:21
seb128soc: gnome-keyring got updated15:26
socah nice to know15:29
socand because of that my keys stop working?15:29
soci don't really want to sound angry :-)15:30
dokocalc: xom doesn't build with gcj either15:30
sconklincan anyone point me to a description of the operating environment for init scripts (intrepid)? I'm having a problem that appears to be related to forking and the available file descriptors.15:30
Keybukthere is no guaranteed operating environment15:31
mvodoko: thanks15:31
calcdoko: for some reason it built on my machine both times before i uploaded but then failed on the buildd, not sure why it worked on mine and failed on the buildd though15:31
sconklinnot even for file descriptors 0-2?15:31
Keybuknot even for them15:31
sconklinsigh. Thanks15:32
Keybukthis is one of the bugs that Upstart is intended to address15:32
Keybuk(it goes out of its way to ensure every job gets a guaranteed environment)15:32
sconklinThen I vote for that.15:32
keesKeybuk, soren: so, the new udev rules path... does mdadm need to be fixed too?15:33
Keybukkees: mdadm should be fixed?15:33
keesKeybuk: that's what I'm asking.  :)15:34
Keybukno, I mean it should _already_ be fixed, are you disagreeing?15:34
keesoh! okay, cool, nm then.  :)15:34
keesalso, where should the *persistent* .rules files live?15:35
keesin /etc/udev/rules.d ?15:35
kwwiiseb128: do you know which package the default cursor theme is in?15:37
kwwiiseb128: I looked in xcursor-themes but it is not in there15:37
ograisnt that dmz-cursor-theme ?15:37
kwwiiogra: yes, it is and unfortunately they are all in cursor forrmat15:39
ograeven in the source package ?15:39
ograthats bad15:39
kwwiiogra: in that package there are only x11 cursor files, and I can#t find another package with any source for it15:40
ograthough arent there tools to convert cursor files to png ?15:43
ograand back15:43
kwwiino, not that I can find...I did find the sources though15:46
kwwiion jimmacs website15:46
seb128no idea about those15:46
seb128soc: could be bug #31539815:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 315398 in gnome-keyring "ssh key renamed (possibly) after upgrade" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31539815:47
seb128soc: though you mentionned ssl but not ssh before?15:47
james_wwhat's the replacement for "update-modules"?15:47
calcok upload now in process15:51
keesKeybuk: out of curiosity, why the dh bump in lvm2?15:53
socseb: yes, i can't unlock my ssh key anymore15:53
Keybukkees: because it uses dh_installudev15:53
Keybukso needs the bump to install the rules in the right place15:53
Keybukotherwise you could build it with a version of dh_installudev that still puts the rules in /etc15:54
keeshah, okay15:54
seb128kees: hi15:56
keesheya seb12815:56
seb128kees: did you send your libtop patch upstream after uploading it to jaunty?15:56
keesseb128: do you have the bug# handy?  (I don't presently remember)15:57
seb128kees: you uploaded a change some weeks ago to fix a leak which were create issue in the system monitor applet15:57
seb128let me get the bug number15:57
seb128kees: bug #30747215:58
ubottuLaunchpad bug 307472 in libgtop2 "multiload-applet-2 leaks memory" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/30747215:58
seb128kees: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgtop2/2.24.0-0ubuntu315:58
keesseb128: no, I did it as part of my sponsorship workflow, so I didn't file an upstream bug15:59
seb128kees: not sure if you know but we try to follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PatchTaggingGuidelines too and make sure we send fixes upstream for desktop changes ;-)15:59
* kees nods15:59
seb128kees: anyway would be nice if you could bugzilla it, thanks!15:59
keesI haven't gotten into the habit of requiring that from sponsorees yet15:59
seb128since you did the upload I think it's fair you do the forwarding too ;-)15:59
seb128well, either we request and we forward the patch for them16:00
keessure, it might result in a gnome patch that isn't ignored16:00
keesseb128: btw, do you think that qualifies as SRU material?16:00
seb128could be16:01
seb128but we didn't get many complain about it and intrepid is not a lts so I'm not sure I would bother16:01
seb128I don't think many people do disk monitoring but maybe that's a wrong impression16:02
* kees nods16:02
seb128I usually have network and cpu monitors on my config16:02
seb128anyway if you want to do the sru feel free16:02
keesseb128: looks like it's already upstream http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56661116:03
ubottuGnome bug 566611 in linux "Potential leak in fsusage.c" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]16:03
seb128kees: ah good, it was not when you uploaded, I just had this on my list since before the holidays and I didn't check again ;-)16:04
keesseb128: cool, yeah16:04
sorenKeybuk: Your watershed 2 package is vapourware so far.. :/16:12
Keybukbut I committed it!16:13
Keybukand I tagged it!16:13
sorenGood for you :)16:13
sorenFor me (and my builds), less so :)16:13
* Keybuk so wants build-from-tag16:13
* soren takes a break16:13
Keybukbzr tag --for ubuntu 136-216:13
ubottuUbuntu bug 136 in baz "baz logs and baz cat-log only work in working tree" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/13616:14
* Keybuk hands ubottu a cup of FAIL16:14
=== Omegamoon is now known as Omegamoon|away
keeshm, can an archive admin accept zsnes into -proposed?16:22
* directhex puts snes9x there instead, hopes nobody notices16:29
pittikees: done16:44
Keybukcjwatson: you've not uploaded pcmciautils yet, right?16:48
keespitti: thanks!16:52
keespitti: actually, I've got one more: dosemu, which will show up in about 2 minutes16:53
* pitti boggles16:56
pittiseb128: I don't believe it, but using the change-a-thing-and-document it, I found the difference for the lp timeouts16:56
pittiseb128: downgrading python-apt to intrepid in the jaunty chroot makes the LP timeouts go away; likewise, upgrading p-apt in the intrepid chroot makes them appear16:57
pittiW. T. F. ?16:57
pittithekorn_: ^ FYI16:58
seb128pitti: weird16:59
seb128pitti: several users commented about getting timeout using apport too in jaunty btw16:59
pittiseb128: which kind of timeout?17:00
pittiseb128: when uploading reports, timeout displayed in LP in the browser?17:02
* pitti pins python-apt to intrepid for now and tests the real thing17:03
seb128pitti: wait, I'm looking if I find the bug17:04
seb128pitti: I don't find it right now17:06
seb128pitti: but we asked on some crash to use apport to send the crash and the user replied that was not working but timeouting17:07
bluefoxicyokay, hold it.17:11
seb128pitti: that's bug #311690 rather17:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 311690 in launchpad-foundations "Delay between blob submission and blob availability causes Launchpad to OOPS." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31169017:11
bluefoxicyMem:   3797552k total,  3746448k used,    51104k free,   101104k buffers17:11
bluefoxicySwap:   787072k total,   786396k used,      676k free,   346060k cached17:11
pittiseb128: right, but that's even something else17:11
pittiseb128: I saw that17:11
pittiseb128: loading the page again after some seconds works17:12
bluefoxicy3.5G + .75G used?17:12
bluefoxicy11271 bluefox   20   0 1638m 945m  11m S    0 25.5  36:17.50 nautilus17:12
bluefoxicy11594 bluefox   20   0 1175m 674m  19m S   12 18.2   7177:05 firefox17:12
bluefoxicyWhen you guys get done discussing real business, somebody /msg me how to figure this one out, because I  don't even know where to begin filing a bug for this that isn't too vague to matter17:13
bluefoxicy(WTF nautilus!?)17:13
seb128bluefoxicy: try to find how to trigger it and run those under valgrind17:15
seb128bluefoxicy: could be some image you loaded which created the issue for example17:15
bluefoxicyseb128: firefox is like this all the time17:15
* pitti hugs seb128, thekorn, and everyone17:15
* seb128 hugs pitti17:16
pittiIT'S WORKING!!!!!!17:16
* pitti jumps for joy17:16
bluefoxicynautilus may be a bit iffy after browsing my porn directory; I can only hypothesize the most likely cause involves generating thumbnails for videos17:16
bluefoxicyclearing it requires killing nautilus17:16
bluefoxicy7ffffc89e000-7ffffc8ba000 rwxp 7ffffffe3000 00:00 0                      [stack] <--- LOVELY17:18
pittimvo: so, any idea why jaunty's python-apt causes Launchpad bugs to timeout through python-launchpad-bugs? :-)17:18
pittimvo: (that's veeery high on my list of "weirdest bugs ever")17:18
mvopitti: uh, first time I hear about that17:19
mvopitti: d yo uhave more details?17:19
mvopitti: is there any sort of proxy involved?17:19
pittimvo: not yet, it just took me 2.5 days to find that in the first place...17:19
mvopitti: or a way for me to reproduce it?17:19
pittibut I have no idea what p-apt and p-lp-bugs have in common17:19
pittimvo: I have a reproducer in the retracer chroots, I'll try to come up with a very small one which works "at home"17:20
pittimvo: anyway, it was really just a teaser, not "plzfixitnow" :)17:20
* pitti hugs mvo17:20
mvopitti: hrm, damm. that means I need to back to finish spec reviewing? :P17:20
mvopitti: it sounds definitely quite mysterious (especially now that I understand that its LP itself that times out)17:22
bluefoxicycan anyone tell me what /usr/lib/libgmp.so.3.4.2 does?17:23
bluefoxicyand why it needs an executable stack?17:23
cjwatsonKeybuk: oh, sorry, no, needed to upgrade to new udev so I could test it17:25
pittimvo: ok, the reproducer works locally, too; do you want that in a bug report?17:28
pittimvo: (or at all?)17:28
maxbbluefoxicy: "dpkg -S /usr/lib/libgmp.so.3.4.2" --> tells you it comes from the libgmp3c2 package. "dpkg -p libgmp3c2" --> tells you about the package17:30
ograand http://gmplib.org/ tells you what it is17:31
bluefoxicymaxb:  thanks, that's more useful than google :)17:31
mvopitti: please, I would love to have a look at this17:34
pittimvo: bug 315571 now contains everything I know about this bug17:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 315571 in python-apt "[jaunty] causes random Launchpad timeouts with python-apport" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/31557117:40
pittimvo: can you quickly try the reproducer? it's just an one-line copy&paste shell command17:40
Keybukpackages that build-conflict their own binaries are UNHELPFUL18:14
directhexKeybuk, but sometimes inevitable18:20
directhexi think mythtv does this18:20
Keybukglibc should do it18:22
Keybukjust to explain to everyone why it's wrong18:22
LaserJockcjwatson: can I have mixed Universe and Main seeds in a "seed pod"? I'm wondering if that creates component mismatches18:33
cjwatsonerr. worldview clash18:33
cjwatsonyou're asking a question whose terms will be undefined in the new world order18:34
cjwatsonor are you not talking about archive-reorganisation?18:34
LaserJockI'm not, no18:34
LaserJockI'm talking for today18:34
cjwatsonwhich seed collection are you talking about?18:34
LaserJockwe'd like to make some metapackages for Universe18:34
LaserJockand I'm wondering if we should split that out into a different bzr branch18:35
cjwatsonif you put packages into the Edubuntu seed collection, they will be flagged for promotion to main18:35
cjwatsonyou can create another branch that inherits from edubuntu.jaunty18:35
cjwatsonthat's probably the correct approach18:35
LaserJockcjwatson: is there a reasonable ETA on archive-reorganisation? i.e. "it's gonna happen for Jaunty"?18:36
cjwatsonblocked on LP feature, call due next week to try to figure out what to do18:36
cjwatsonin short, no18:36
LaserJockwhen we have that reorganization is there going to be a way to distinguish between Universe and Main-type packages within a project?18:37
LaserJockwould we have to like create two different seed pods (can't remember what the adopted term was)18:38
cjwatsonI think that will become easier18:38
cjwatsonalthough I do not have the precise layout yet18:38
* ScottK thinks about it and gets a headache.18:38
jpdsLaserJock: lobe I think.18:39
LaserJockwhat we're shooting for it to be able to define a "fully supported" core set of app but also have a "best effort support" app selection18:39
cjwatsonLaserJock: remember that in the new world order there is no universe18:41
LaserJockI know18:41
LaserJockbut we want to make our own, essentially18:41
cjwatsonLaserJock: so it's a lot easier to just say "we're supporting these bits"18:42
LaserJock"Education" is such a broad category with such a wide range in software/package quality that we would like to define a core set18:42
cjwatsonI think it will probably involve two different seed collections since you might well want to have different access control associated with them, but that that will not be a big deal18:42
LaserJockok, cool18:42
cjwatsonalso, if you want to make it be just one seed collection and have only one ACL, I don't think that should be a problem either18:43
cjwatsonbut I still need to work my way through the UDS session video and update the spec properly18:43
LaserJockwell, I think we may want to have different ACLs18:44
cjwatsonI think there is a bijection between seed collections and ACLs18:44
cjwatsonone seed collection defines one package set which is given an ACL in LP18:44
cjwatsonor thereabouts18:45
cjwatsonactually that isn't quite true given overlaps but you get the general idea18:45
LaserJockhow is Canonical then going to define what it supports? will that be independent of seeds?18:45
cjwatsonI don't see any reason why we would put all this effort into a more expressive infrastructure only to not use it to define what we support :-)18:46
RainCT(if someone answered my question, please repeat the answer.. irssi reconnected)18:46
cjwatsonthere has been some talk of something like supported-by: canonical in Packages, and I think we'll probably end up with something along those lines though probably not quite18:46
ScottK-desktopRainCT: I don't think we got a question from you.18:47
cjwatsonI would like to get to the point where synaptic/gnome-app-install can display icons indicating a package's support status, analogous to the current main/universe display18:47
cjwatsonbut for that to not require physically separate Packages files18:47
cjwatsonwe may need pdiffs for this to be sane18:47
RainCTevil network-manager..18:47
RainCTBtw, what will happen with MOTU? Will it still have the same powers as now, or will applying to additional teams (or requesting sponsorship from them) be necessary in order to upload packages maintained by certain teams?18:48
cjwatsonerr the detailed answer to that question changes every time I look18:48
LaserJockI really wish g-a-i wouldn't used "Canonical-maintained applications" for Main, kinda makes me sad :(18:48
cjwatsonthere is no intention to disband MOTU or anything18:48
cjwatson(I suspect if there were there'd be a riot!)18:49
LaserJockI would suspect the MOTUs "universe" just starts getting smaller18:49
cjwatsonor bigger - there are things that are in main that don't necessarily need to be core-only18:50
=== bobbo_ is now known as bobbocanfly
=== bobbocanfly is now known as bobbo
arthur-doko: I have a fix for fastjar's make_manifest instead of building it with -O0 on ia64, it's not miscompilation21:03
arthur-doko: see in query21:07
maxbThe nvidia-180-libvdpau stuff... doesn't that need to either be using version-agnostic names, or declare Provides+Conflicts+Replaces of version-agnostic names?21:17
tvakahquick question before I jump, is jaunty in a place where someone used to running debian unstable+experimental could get by?21:43
cody-somervilletvakah, can you deal with breakage?21:45
tvakahcody-somerville: I know how to downgrade and pin packages if that's what you mean21:46
cody-somervilletvakah, jaunty should be okay for you21:46
tvakahcody-somerville: righto, thanks :)21:46
ScottK-desktopmvo: WRT jaunty backup solution, did you see SuSE just announced http://www.csync.org/21:48
mvoScottK-desktop: thanks, I have not seen this one yet21:49
ScottK-desktopmvo: They just announced it yesterday.21:49
mvoScottK-desktop: I'm not sure how useful it is if the primary purpose is sync, but I will try to find out more21:50
ScottK-desktopMy thought is that backup is potentially a subset of sync and if you can do two things with one tool that another distro is already developing ....21:51
mvoScottK-desktop: yeah, its definitely a good hint and something that we should know about21:52
pwnguinhow's csync different than a gui frontend to zsync?21:52
ScottK-desktopNo gui to start with.21:52
ScottK-desktopThe description reminds me a lot of unison.21:52
pwnguinsilly me; i thought "normal user" meant something entirely different than they did21:52
mvo""The implementation of the library will be introduced as a File Synchronizer for a Microsoft Active Directory environment (Roaming Home Directories for Linux Clients). " <- looks like that is the fist target use for the lib21:53
maxbHmm... unison written in a mainstream language? :-)22:01
pwnguinocaml is neat22:01
pwnguinit just lacks a threaded garbage collector is all ;)22:02
maxbMaybe I should have another try at learning ML, just for fun :-)22:02
pwnguinive been doing the project euler stuff in ocaml22:03
pwnguinbut then, I used to grade undergraduate programs in ocaml22:04
brycenenolod: I posted some patches for the crash on bug #18865922:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 188659 in audacious "audacious crashed in playlistwin_set_sinfo_font with SIGSEGV 1.4.6-1ubuntu1 seg. fault" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18865922:07
nenolodbryce: thanks22:09
=== Mez_ is now known as Mez
=== Omegamoon|away is now known as Omegamoon
nenolodbryce: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21065596/null_ptr_fix.patch is wrong, truncation_point is not a pointer22:16
nenolodbryce: but i will push an upload to debian with those patches22:16
tvakahnvidia binary driver in jaunty: do I hold back all of x11 or is there a version of 180 on ppa or some such?22:31
tjaaltonyou can use it by specifying IgnoreABI or such on the xorg.conf22:32
tjaaltonso no ppa could fix the driver, only nvidia can22:33
tvakahyeah but it's blocking the upgrade currently since nvidia-glx-180 provides xserver-xorg-video-4, which conflicts with xserver-xorg-core22:34
tjaaltonfor good reason22:34
tjaaltonit can be forced though, but you get to keep both pieces22:35
tvakahtjaalton: is this a matter of nvidia upstream, or rebuilding it for the new xserver in jaunty?22:36
tjaaltontvakah: we don't have the source, so it's nvidias fault22:37
tjaaltonalso mentioned on the alpha2 release notes IIRC22:38
brycenenolod: right, needs a *22:41
tvakahhmmm this may be the final straw that makes me seek an ati graphics module for my notebook22:45
tjaaltonfor a new one you mean?22:46
maxbPresumably fglrx is in the same mess22:47
tvakahno I have a notebook with discrete graphics that can be replaced fortunately22:48
tjaaltonstrange notebook22:48
tvakahasus c90s22:49
tjaaltonoh, more like a mobile pc :)22:51
tvakahpretty much, that's exactly what I wanted :)22:51
tvakahso, if trying to force xorg 1.6 + nvidia breaks things into pieces, are the pieces fewer if I hold xorg back on 1.5?22:52
brycetvakah: make sure to get r500 or older22:52
brycetvakah: in which case the open -ati driver supports it quite nicely22:52
brycer600 and newer support is in the works and probably will be there for jaunty+122:52
bryce(_maybe_ sooner, we'll see)22:53
tvakahgotcha, I'll see what I can find22:53
tvakahhmm yeah, according to the forums the 180.22 driver released yesterday works with some semblance of stability with IgnoreABI on22:54
tjaalton180 always has22:57
tjaaltonthe thing is that they've compiled it against the older stack22:57
tjaaltonso you need to use the option22:57
tjaalton177 segfaulted when I tried it a ~month ago22:58
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
cjwatsonKeybuk: pcmciautils done now, sorry for lateness23:35
sconklinIs there a place that userspace packages are usually kept if they're not on launchpad? I'm looking for pm-utils and all I can find on launchpad is "it's not here".23:53
cjwatsonsconklin: many packages have no revision control as yet and the only place you'll find them is 'apt-get source pm-utils'23:55
cjwatson(pm-utils may or may not have somewhere you haven't found, I haven't checked)23:56
cjwatsonHomepage: http://pm-utils.freedesktop.org/23:56
cjwatsonVcs-Browser: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/collab-maint/ext-maint/pm-utils/trunk23:56
cjwatsonVcs-Svn: svn://svn.debian.org/svn/collab-maint/ext-maint/pm-utils/trunk23:56
cjwatsonthat's the Debian revision control rather than ours but might be useful23:56
cjwatsoninformation from 'apt-cache showsrc pm-utils' on jaunty23:57
ubottufrom is not a valid distribution ['dapper', 'gutsy', 'gutsy-backports', 'hardy', 'hardy-backports', 'intrepid', 'intrepid-backports', 'jaunty', 'jaunty-backports', 'kde4-ppa', 'kubuntu-members-kde4', 'medibuntu', 'partner']23:57
* cjwatson sticks out his tongue at ubottu and waggles it around23:58
* StevenK waves http://paste.ubuntu.com/102967/ at cjwatson (livecd-rootfs)23:59

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