dgroosHi All!  I'm working on setting up an LTSP LAN in my science classroom and have a couple questions.02:40
dgroosThe server is running on two CPU Xeon,02:40
dgroosand the thin clients our old Pentium IIIs.02:41
dgroosFirst, I need a good way to manage the computers and I'm looking at iTALC and it seems to be set up pretty well but there  seems to be an issue.02:41
LaserJockdgroos: I have some questions for you after your done asking yours :-)02:42
dgroosEvery time I reboot the server it says  something about an air there is already an ISD  server running on port 5800--  for sure Laserjock!02:43
dgroos I've googled and not understood the solutions any ideas?02:43
dgroosOh yeah -- your turn!02:43
LaserJockdgroos: ISD or ISA?02:44
dgroosLaserJock: It said ISD.02:44
LaserJockyeah, I just got some other google stuff, nevermind me :-)02:44
LaserJockdgroos: did you find http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=490857502:46
dgroosLaserjock: let me check it out and get back to you!02:47
LaserJockit looks like maybe it's not killing off the ica processes02:47
LaserJockdgroos: you might also look at http://www.kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3093025 especially the last post02:48
dgroosLaserJock:  I actually did see the first one, but that was a  month ago and now they understand Linux a bit better it makes more sense to me now I will give it a try tomorrow when I get school and post what I find out Thanks :-)02:52
LaserJockdgroos: so do you have a sec for a couple questions?02:52
dgroosLaserJock: absolutely!02:52
LaserJockdgroos: I'm just curious about your science classroom. Like what ages, what country, etc.02:53
dgroosLaserJock: I teach in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.02:53
dgroosMy students are currently ninth graders, but most of my teaching, the  previous 17 years was middle school science.02:54
dgroosMy schools have been, and are, pretty typical inner-city classrooms.02:54
LaserJockwhat kind of science?02:54
dgroosRight now I'm teaching environmental science, but before that when I taught in middle school it was life science and physical science.02:55
LaserJockI have a BA in Environmental Science02:55
dgroosI should warn too, I'm using voice recognition software and sometimes might miss very weird typos!02:55
LaserJockcurrently finishing up a PhD in Physical Chemistry02:55
LaserJockdgroos: what kinds of applications are you using in your classroom?02:56
dgroosI'm currently working on my Ph.D. in curriculum and instruction at the University of Minnesota: and I'm trying to integrate different thoughts about science education, computer access, and collaboration.02:56
dgroosWant to check out my blog for a moment?  http://groosd.blogspot.com  -- quickly scroll down the page to see some images, and on older posts, some more images. This could show you a bit of the journey had been taking.02:58
LaserJockoh heh, I see edubuntu-menus in there03:00
dgroosSince I have not yet got this new LAN  up and running my students haven't done a thing with it yet! However the six years previous to this my students were using the old iMacs built under the table and they mainly used Firefox, CmapTools.03:00
dgroosa core service was the http://plone.org  content management system that I've customized for my classroom.03:01
dgroosYes! I've got some questions about edubuntu-menus, too!03:02
LaserJockdgroos: well, I wrote it so ask away03:02
dgroos and sorry for the interruption I just remembered I have to go pick up my daughter now but if you're still around in 10 minutes of a back! Thanks so much for your help.03:02
LaserJocksee you in 10 :-)03:02
dgroosLaserJock: not too much more than 10?03:18
dgroosSo, moving on to edubuntu-menus...03:18
dgroos I've been getting a lot of technical help from volunteers and it's been great and I really appreciate it.03:19
LaserJockdgroos: I realized while you were gone that you're the David that left the comment on my blog post03:19
LaserJockdgroos: thanks for the input on that03:19
dgroosIndeed :-)03:19
LaserJockalright, so I read the little comment on your blog about edubuntu-menus03:20
LaserJockone point is that Ubuntu and Edubuntu do use the same menus by default03:20
LaserJockwe've just got edubuntu-menus as hopefully a better way of organizing it03:21
LaserJockhowever, we need a GUI for it03:21
dgroos so, the guy who's been helping me working to create a safe and structured system for the students, as well as a system that allows students to earn more privileges as they showed more responsibility in the use of the network,03:21
LaserJockthat's interesting, what kind of privileges can they get?03:22
dgroosanyway, he thought that sabayon looked like it was a very active and he couldn't get it to work.  ( I'll answer questions in just a second, okay?)03:22
dgroos So he decided to write a program, then came upon your edubuntu-menus and love the solution.03:23
dgroosSo he installed it on my machine, but he hasn't been able to get back to the machine for almost a month. So again today after school...03:24
dgroosI've been working on it, and achieved success, and created my own .menu  file reference to a group I called level1. it was very exciting upon seeing it work perfectly. the science teacher next door heard my shout :-)03:25
dgroos so, the idea is to use edubuntu-menus  as a way to control student access to applications through group membership. But, I found it may not be ideally suited for that.03:26
dgroosI tried it with a student and phone that the user could right click on a file and say, "open with..." and choose an application that be perhaps hadn't shown the responsibility that they could use it yet.03:28
LaserJockoooh, right. that's a tough one03:28
dgroosOkay -- that's my monologue... and to answer question... I want students to be able to use open office and Cmap Tools  at the level one stage. Upon showing responsible computer use for a week...03:30
dgroosthey move on to level 2 where they can now access Firefox, however using squid  proxy they would only be able to access our classes site though of course there is much opportunity to do web 2.0 kind of things on that site. After another week's responsible use of the computer...03:31
dgroosFirefox is opened up to the Web allowing for all the simulations, Google docs, etc..03:33
dgroosIf they do something very clearly told not to do then they drop back down to level 1 and week by week have to earn the privileges back.03:34
dgroos I feel it is necessary to add this is not about being a control freak, simply accountability. Teachers out there I think know what I mean!03:36
dgroosI forgot to mention, students gain access to the games and simulations on edubuntu as they go along, as well.03:37
dgroos so, what is the status of Sabayon?03:38
dgroosand how about, Pesslus (I think it's called)03:38
LaserJockSabayon is unfortunately pretty dead right now03:39
LaserJockI was able to track down 1 bug that was making it crash03:39
LaserJockbut ran into some more03:39
LaserJockit was originally developed by Red Hat, but they've pulled out leaving essentially nobody working on it03:40
LaserJockPessulus is doing quite a bit better though03:40
LaserJockPessulus lets you do somewhat limited lockdown via gconf03:40
LaserJocksabayon was trying to do complete "profile" management03:41
LaserJockdgroos: what about this. what if you don't actually lock students out but rather tracked what apps they opened03:42
LaserJockat the end of the day you could say "heah, you opened up firefox and you know you're not supposed to, back to 1"03:42
dgrooswell, tracking is key, but could you say, 'back to 1' if you don't have a way to enforce it?  Also,03:43
dgroosStudents, respond generally better in an environment where there are limited choices in that they don't have temptations, so locking out possibilities helps students focus on the creative possiblitities I provide for them...03:45
LaserJockI have an idea, but I need to talk with some people about it03:45
dgroos Are you familiar with Apple Remote Desktop http://apple.com/remotedesktop ?03:45
LaserJockI've heard of it but not used it03:46
dgroosWait!  I got confused -- Apple Remote Desktop is iTALC with a few polishes03:51
LaserJockyeah, something like that03:51
dgroosAll of the student/group management I did with Apple's server software, "Workgroup Manager"03:51
dgroos user preferences and permissions were all controlled either by group or user settings.03:52
dgroos so when I got to Linux I just assumed they would have some  similar system :-) and it's been slowing me down a lot.03:53
LaserJockand could you set those permissions on applications?03:53
dgroos I'm not sure what you mean? Also, do you mean in the Macintosh system or Edubuntu system?03:54
LaserJockI mean on the Mac, with the "Workgrouop Manager" let you do what you're talking about, limiting what applications students could run03:57
dgroosYes, you can either wait list or blacklist applications by either user or group.03:58
dgroosoops,  that's, "white list", not wait list!03:59
dgroosis edubuntu-menus kind of similar to pessulus?  are they complementary?04:02
LaserJockthey're very different in what they do04:03
dgroosAlso, is there some config file where I can disable that right-click open with a particular application?04:03
LaserJockedubuntu-menus is designed for presenting a particular menu based on groups04:03
LaserJockpessulus lets you lock down things like the panels and I think if a terminal is accesible04:04
dgroossorry--what's a panel?04:05
LaserJockI think for the right-click open thing we'd have to lock the actual applications04:05
LaserJockdgroos: like the start menu bar04:05
LaserJockthat shows you the list of open applications, a clock, etc.04:05
dgroos okay, I think I understand. So you could for example get rid of the, System menu, or only allow a few of the preferences to be visible?04:06
LaserJockhmm, I think that might actually be more of an edubuntu-menus thing04:07
LaserJockbut you could, for instance prevent students from messing around with the panel, moving it around and such04:08
dgroosI'm going to mess with it :-)04:08
LaserJockyeah, I would just play with it a bit04:08
dgroos any thoughts about locking applications by group profiles -- I'm not sure if that's asked properly!04:09
LaserJockthat would really be sabayon04:10
LaserJock... if it was working :(04:10
dgroos and is perhaps you've seen from some of my soap box-ing (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/Education)I'm quite passionate about helping bring open source into the mainstream education, especially in inner-city classrooms because that's where I've taught but I believe it's important for all places.04:13
dgroosI'd like to help you folks who have been working on this directly for a long time.04:14
dgroosLaserJock: do you have any suggestions where I ought to be heading right now with this need to manage user privileges?04:16
dgroosright: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/Education04:16
LaserJockI would email the edubuntu-users mailing list04:17
LaserJockeven though I'm a developer I'm not really an educator (yet) so my experience on what people are using is limited04:18
LaserJockthis issue of user management in the classroom is *very* important to me04:18
LaserJockright now though I'm not sure what the best way to attack the problem of locking down individual applications04:19
LaserJockin general, Linux tries to be helpful but making it easier to *let* users access applications, we're facing the opposite problem04:20
dgroosRight :-)04:20
dgroosit seems paradoxical that to help someone gain freedom one must provide them with limits :-)04:21
dgroosbut such is part of teaching, I'd say.04:21
dgroosI will e-mal the user group tomorrow.04:22
LaserJockI'm very interested in your Growing Communities Of Scientists being both a scientist and a technologist04:23
dgroosThank you VERY much for your generously-given time this evening, it has provided me with a broader understanding of a few things.  I'll most likely be on tomorrow eve...04:23
LaserJockyou've done a great job with your blog, lots of details and pictures04:23
dgroosAlso, the meeting, is that on this channel?04:23
LaserJockit will actually be in the #ubuntu-meeting channel04:24
LaserJockthat's Ubuntu general meeting place04:24
dgroosI should be able to catch the first 10 minutes it as classes start a bit later on Wed.04:24
dgroosI'll try to do a bit of lurking :-)04:24
LaserJockok, sorry about the time issue, I think we're going to try to adjust it as a couple people have mentioned it being inconvenient04:25
LaserJockit's hard scheduling times when it involves people from all over the world :-)04:25
dgroosThanks and best of luck with your dissertation--I was reading your blog...04:25
LaserJockdgroos: my email is laserjock@ubuntu.com if you've got any questions, need some info on edubuntu-menus, etc.04:25
LaserJockI'm glad you dropped by04:26
dgroosThanks--mine is djgroos at gmail dot com04:26
dgroostake it easy!04:26
LaserJockyou as well04:26
highvoltagemorning LaserJock05:49
LaserJockoh, hi highvoltage05:49
LaserJockI was just about to post a radical blog post ;-)05:50
highvoltagedid you get that email last night?05:51
highvoltage(or probably "this morning" for you)05:52
LaserJockall worked out05:52
LaserJocknight all06:12
DiskdocHelp! I have a problem with our temrinals and I can't seem to get it solved!08:49
DiskdocHave classes to attend to at the same time..I'll check in here later if someone answered08:49
Diskdocterminals boot up fine, user logs in, seems to work but before the desktop is shown08:49
Diskdocthe user is thrown back to the login screen08:49
DiskdocOn all terminals starting from today.. SSH to the server (from workstations) works normally08:50
Diskdoc I rebuild the client image and did the ltsp ssh pass update as well08:50
DiskdocI think had this before once, and then it was the permissions on the /home dir (my mistake)08:51
DiskdocBut not this time.. My only clue is some errors on the terminals console that complains about client authorization not being good. I googled it and it seems Pulseaudio-related08:52
DiskdocEveryone wake up over there, on the other side of the world :)08:52
DiskdocLooking att auth.log everything seems normal..09:02
Diskdoc pam_unix(sshd:session): session opened for user test2 by (uid=0)09:03
Diskdocsubsystem request for sftp09:03
Diskdocpam_unix(sshd:session): session closed for user test209:03
DiskdocCreating a new user and logging in from a terminal also fails09:04
DiskdocYes, that was it.. Cleared some files from /home and everything works again09:32
sbalneavMorning all14:47
Ahmucki thinking about giving hugin lessons on ltsp computers to our local students in march15:35
LaserJockstgraber: congrats!!!15:48
Ahmuckany way to include hugin in part of the base edubuntu packages?16:16
LaserJockAhmuck: I don't think presently16:20
LaserJockI'd need to check the Jaunty version specifically, but in Intrepid it depends on wxwidgets2.616:20
Ahmuckpresently it's not or presntly there is no way16:20
LaserJockpresently there is no way16:20
Ahmucku mean 8.10?16:20
Ahmuckwell, i meant in upcoming releases16:21
LaserJockwe'd need to port it (which may or may not be trivial) to wxwidgets2.8 I think16:21
LaserJockyes, I'm just basing my data on 8.10 since that's what I'm running at the moment16:21
Ahmuckwhy port it?16:21
nubaegreets LaserJock16:22
LaserJockbecause wxwidgets2.6 can't go in Main16:22
LaserJockor is very unlikely to16:22
LaserJockto get hugin looks to involve pulling in another 4 or 5 packages16:23
LaserJockI think it'd be better off to put that in a Universe bundle for now16:23
LaserJockbut it's a good idea for sure16:23
LaserJockwe need to start getting or Universe list of apps together16:25
LaserJockI can get the bundle packages worked up fairly soon16:25
LaserJockthe packaging for the Main ones is done and uploaded16:25
LaserJockubuntu-edu-* now exists, though I think the lists are all that great right now, I just sort of guessed16:26
nubaeI sent out an email with a bunch of suggestions16:26
nubaeand received no repsonse16:26
LaserJocknubae: did you get my reply?16:26
LaserJockfor goodness sakes!!! stupid Gmail16:27
LaserJockI spent quite a few hours writing up 4 emails for -devel and they got sent with the wrong address16:27
LaserJockno wonder I didn't get any response16:27
nubaeyeah I was wondering why u were ignoring the list :-)16:27
nubaeI was kickstarting fires all over, but no response16:28
LaserJocknah, I was emailing up a storm, it just wasn't going anywhere16:28
nubaeLaserJock: I'll be at FOSSDEM 5th Feb. (Brussels)16:30
nubaemaybe some other edubuntarians will be there16:30
LaserJockoh, email edubuntu-users maybe and ask16:31
LaserJocknubae: to get mahara into main would require php-file and smarty16:34
LaserJocknot sure how much the security team would complain about PHP16:34
nubaewell its practically needed for every web app16:35
LaserJockmeaning, we'd need to do those 3 MIRs to get it in16:35
nubaewell, I'd like to do ejabberd16:35
LaserJockit was just info, not saying impossible16:35
LaserJockin general Ubuntu/Canonical doesn't like PHP all that much16:35
LaserJockthey're somewhat practical about it, but it's still something we might have to deal with16:36
nubaevery well, so for ejabberd, what should I do16:36
nubaeI've been reading the MIR document16:36
nubaewhat are the steps I should take?16:37
LaserJockone thing that might help you is a script that I use to find out what other packages things need16:37
LaserJockit's called 404main16:37
LaserJockit's in the ubuntu-dev-tools package16:37
nubaek instaled16:38
LaserJockyou can install that, but if it wants to have you install a whole bunch of stuff we can extract out just 404main16:38
LaserJockah, ok16:38
LaserJockso run 404main ejabberd16:38
LaserJockthe condition that a package has to have to be in Main is that all it's dependencies and all it's *build* dependencies must also be in Main16:39
nubae   grep-dctrl16:39
nubae   erlang-abi-11.b.316:39
nubae   erlang-dev16:39
nubae   libsctp116:39
nubae   ejabberd16:39
nubae   libsctp-dev16:39
nubae   erlang-nox16:39
nubae   erlang-base16:39
nubaedamnthat requires main inclusiosn for all those too16:39
LaserJockwell, not exactly16:39
LaserJockyou see those are the binary packages16:39
LaserJockwe now need to get the source package mappings16:39
LaserJockas you can imagine all the erlang stuff is probably going to be 1 package16:40
LaserJockso you can use apt-cache madison16:40
LaserJockso I ran apt-cache madison libsctp116:41
LaserJockand that tells me the source package is lksctp-tools and in Intrepid at least it's in Universe16:41
nubaethey're all in universe16:42
LaserJockso we need, lksctp-tools, erlang, and grep-dctrl16:43
nubaehave u spoken to ogra about the edubuntu-members launchpad team?16:43
LaserJockI'm a little suspicious of grep-dctrl16:43
LaserJockabout ~edubuntu?16:44
LaserJockand no, I haven't16:44
nubaewhy suspicious?16:45
LaserJockI don't think of it normally as a build-dep, but I verified it is16:47
LaserJockwe use it a far amount as a development tool16:47
LaserJockhmm, lkscrtp-tools may not be trivial16:49
LaserJock"user-space access to Linux Kernel SCTP"16:49
LaserJockseems like the kernel/security team might want to know about that16:50
nubae> kgeography - already in main16:51
nubae> klettres - already in main16:51
nubaeThese have been dropped/replaced in KDE 416:51
nubaethey haven't16:51
LaserJockI don't think that's consistent with KDE 4.216:52
LaserJockhmm, wait a sec16:52
nubaeI have to run... talk later..16:53
LaserJockbah, my bad16:54
LaserJockI was thinking kpercentage16:54
LaserJockboth of those kgeography and klettres are in Main already, we just need to put them in the seeds if they aren't already16:55
Ahmuckwhat does it take to package for universe?17:10
Ahmuckcurrenlty hugin does so much more than simple panographs17:11
Ahmuckfor example, it now does panni and archietcial projects, and someone is stictching panographic movies togather17:11
LaserJockAhmuck: what do you mean "what does it take to package for universe"? do you mean how do you get a package into universe?17:11
Ahmuckthe current hugin does not have the latest features17:12
Ahmucksomething like hugin-ng17:12
LaserJockwell, it can be a fairly big task, but there's quite a bit of documentation and lots of helpful people in #ubuntu-motu17:13
Ahmucki build my own from svn17:13
Ahmuckwhich might explain why packages don't get in or updated?17:13
LaserJockif you can base it off of the current hugin package then it'd be a lot easier17:13
LaserJocksomewhat yeah, there's a lot of things to consider17:13
LaserJockwe need to not only consider newer features, but also stability, supportability, etc.17:14
LaserJockit also depends on how active maintainers are in that area17:14
Ahmuckalkisg: yep, i'm having problems with user directories L(17:31
alkisgAhmuck: what?17:31
alkisgOh, with the chown thing?17:31
Ahmuckuser id's17:32
Ahmucknot matching17:32
alkisgDid you run the one-liner I wrote you yesterday?17:32
Ahmuckheh, nope17:32
Ahmucki was just comment is all17:33
alkisgGive it a try, it may solve your problems17:33
LaserJockdid you guys happen to catch my blog post from yesterday/today?17:42
LaserJockAhmuck: http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/why-we-need-edubuntu-to-succeed/17:53
LaserJockit was on Planet Ubuntu if you read that17:53
LaserJockI wanted to get some feedback from some edubunteros17:53
LnsLaserJock: You are right on track!17:58
LnsA word of caution, as it has been in my own mind, we are treading dangerous waters, however.... there are powers that do not want Linux in Education, and they have billions at hand to try to prevent it from happening on a large scale.17:59
LnsWith that in mind, however, that might just be enough motivation for us to come together to fight those powers with our best weapon - superior technology.17:59
LaserJockheh, maybe they can use some of their billions to get me a job  :-)18:00
nubaeLns: u saw Obama's stance?18:00
Lnsnubae: ?18:00
nubaeon truthout18:00
Lnsno? not sure what you're talking about18:01
nubaecheck item 618:01
Lnsmmm, chili bowl *drool*18:02
Lnsthats pretty cool18:02
LnsI guess the US is headed in the right direction (finally)18:03
LaserJocknubae: that's interesting but I'm not sure it's gonna end up doing much18:03
LnsBut, I still wouldnt underestimate the power of above said powers18:03
nubaewe'll see how much truth there is to that (no pun intended) :p18:03
LaserJockI imagine he's also going to bail out MS by pushing for upgrading schools18:04
LaserJock"ohh, the government is gonna pay for new licenses, sweet"18:04
LnsMS already dumps their software into education at 0 cost..did any of you read the link i posted yesterday around this time?18:04
LaserJockhmm, perhaps18:04
nubaeso LaserJock, to get back to ejabberd... should I try and follow the process of MIRing it along with its deps?18:04
LaserJocknubae: you might first want to email ubuntu-motu18:05
LaserJockthere might be other people who would like it in Main and might be willing to help18:05
nubaeok, what should I say?18:05
LaserJocksay that you are interested in getting ejabberd in Main so it can go on the Ubuntu Education CD18:05
LaserJockand list the other packages that need to get a MIR too18:06
LaserJockand then ask for thoughts on moving it? there may be some objections, I don't know for sure18:06
LaserJocknubae: you can always run the email by me first if you're unsure18:07
LaserJockor heck, I can email it for you if you like18:07
nubaeok I'll do that then18:07
LaserJockLns: that's an interesting read18:10
LnsLaserJock: massive understatement. ;)18:11
LaserJockit really is amazing to me how well Linux/FLOSS competes18:12
LaserJockhere we are a bunch of volunteers, often times amateur coders18:13
LaserJockand yet, MS gets a bit scared that we might get to Education18:13
LnsLaserJock: that's because they know our tech. is better than theirs, and they are so slow moving they have to figure out how to keep us at bay. Educators LOVE what LTSP/*buntu does, and the students love it too.18:14
LnsThey can't make their tech better, because it would mean a windows fork.18:15
Lnsor not even a fork..just a "start over"18:15
LnsI would imagine in the near future them coming out with a linux distro18:15
Lnskind of a stage-2 novell strategy18:15
LaserJockone place where I know they're struggling is netbooks and smallish devices18:15
LaserJockI really hope we can make some sort of difference here18:16
LaserJocksometimes I get pretty down when I read about things like sabayon18:17
LaserJockI think "man, are we *ever* going to be truly good for educators"18:17
LnsLaserJock: Is MS "truly good for educators" ?18:17
LaserJockI don't feel it is18:18
LnsIt's not the finish line, but the race that matters most18:18
* Lns is feeling overly philosophical this morning18:18
LaserJockI was really excited by drgoos little computer enabled science classroom thing18:19
stgraberLaserJock: thanks18:20
LaserJockpartly because I'm a scientist and I see a lot of misuse or under-use of technology in the science classroom18:20
LaserJockstgraber: big step :-)18:20
stgraberyep, will make a lot of things easier :)18:20
LnsLaserJock: technology in any classroom/school is underused or misused.18:21
Lnsthey need people like us that are passionate about improving that.18:21
LnsThat's why Im focusing my business model on doing exactly that.18:21
LaserJockyeah, we really need people18:22
LaserJockedu people in upstreams like Gnome and KDE18:22
LaserJockMozilla and OO.o18:22
LaserJocksometimes you gotta think like an educator18:23
LaserJockI still don't know what to think about sabayon18:24
LnsI'm just now learning the ins and outs of educational structure18:24
LaserJockearlier in the week I wanted to ditch it completely18:24
LaserJockand then that email showed up18:24
LnsLaserJock: from the list posts, in FC9 it worked great, its a *buntu thing i think18:24
LaserJockwell, that sort of makes sense18:25
LaserJockit was written by Red Hat18:25
LaserJockyou'd think if it was gonna work anywhere it would be there :-)18:25
Lnshaha, true!18:25
LnsSo the golden question is this: how do you motivate the OSS community to fix bugs in a piece of software when they dont really want to/have the time to ?18:26
LnsMoney is a debatable solution, and highly controversial for us18:26
LaserJockwell, money directly18:27
LaserJockbut money can motivate companies to hire people18:27
LnsWould a NPO make more sense than a company/for profit outfit?18:28
LnsVolunteers are kinda what we are already18:28
LaserJockbut I think it might be hard to get a NPO to last18:28
Lnswhy's that?18:29
LaserJockit'd need some sort of revenue18:29
LnsNPOs get donations18:29
nubaeI think we should accept donations18:29
nubaeon the website18:29
LaserJockright, but in bad economic times, etc. it might be hard to make it sustainable18:29
LaserJocka company has an advantage of venture capital18:30
LnsLaserJock: not if the benefits of saving money on software licenses outweighs it...18:30
LaserJockand say other areas of the company that pay for a losing part18:30
LaserJockbut what would the NPO return to the "investor"?18:30
LaserJock"you give us money and we'll put it toward a good cause"18:31
LaserJockI'm not saying it's impossible or it shouldn't be done18:31
LaserJockbut I think it'd be kinda hard to get very far with it18:31
Lnswell cant you donate to a specific project?18:32
LaserJockyou'd probably want at least ~$250k/year in donations/grants to actually make a dent in anything18:32
Lnsand the NPO would take care of that?18:32
LaserJockyou might18:32
Lnslook at the "sponsor a child in africa" stuff...18:32
LaserJockbut say somebody donates $50 to sabayon, what's that gonna do?18:32
LnsLaserJock: i think you're massively underestimating the potential of a world-wide NPO18:32
LaserJockno, my point is if they can pick anything to donate too then it gets spread awfully thin18:33
LaserJocka "choose between these 10 projects or donate to the general fund" would probably work better18:33
LaserJockI wonder if it'd be possible to make like an Education section of an existing FLOSS NPO18:35
LnsLaserJock: http://www.schoolforge.net/18:36
sbalneavLaserJock: Sigh.  Looks like Sabayon still needs a lot of love.18:37
sbalneavbug 15006818:38
ubottuLaunchpad bug 150068 in sabayon "Sabayon editor crashes when trying to make a change in a profile" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15006818:38
LaserJocksbalneav: yes18:38
LaserJocksbalneav: it looks to me like what has happened is that Gnome has "moved" underneath sabayon and nobody has been around to "resync"18:38
sbalneavCripes.  I've been doing work on the docs, but I wonder if I shouldn't spend some time on this.18:38
LaserJockone of the bugs I was able to fix seems to be due to a difference in how the panel is done in gconf18:39
sbalneavSo you've been doing some work on sabayon?18:39
LaserJocka little bit, trying to learn how it works, etc.18:39
Lnsisnt johnny in #ltsp done a lot of sabayon dev?18:39
LaserJockI was half thinking of trying to get a couple people and take it over upstream18:39
Lnsi thought he was in charge of it or something.18:39
sbalneavJohnny's doing the gentoo port, I thought.18:40
sbalneavAnywho, looks like sabayon's like, the biggest PITA for people to adopt these days.18:40
LaserJockI think user management/control is really the big thing18:41
LaserJockright now, for instance, if you install sabayon you can't add users using the Users and Groups admin tool18:42
Lnssbalneav: yes, i havent introduced it anywhere since testing in Feisty..18:42
LnsLaserJock: the gnome users/groups tool is another can of worms i opened a while back regarding sorting/searching18:42
Lnsdoesnt work18:42
sbalneavbleh.  And when I looked at it a while ago, it's code isn't... the most obvious.  Sigh.18:42
LaserJockit'd be one thing if filing bugs worked18:43
sbalneavLaserJock: I suppose I should set up a jaunty box tonight, and start hacking.18:43
LaserJockbut if there's nobody home upstream we dont' get anywhere18:43
sbalneavYeah, upstream doesn't seem to have time to work on it.18:43
sbalneavCR*******P!!!! So much work.... ok, LaserJock, you gonna be around tonight?18:44
LaserJockyes, I'll be around, you wanna do some brainstorming?18:44
sbalneavLets see if we can target.... 3 of our top bugs, and I'll start trying to fix 'em18:44
LaserJockmy issue has been that I simply *can't* take on a project by myself. I desperately need to finish my dissertation :(18:45
sbalneavMaybe I can take a "work at home" day on Friday, and spend all day trying to track some stuff down.18:45
LaserJockI'd love to help where I can though, for sure18:45
sbalneavDude, YOUR education's more important than Edubuntu: that's a given.  So don't even remotely feel bad.18:45
LaserJockwell, I do feel bad18:46
LaserJockI'm glad to see more people around here, it's really encouraging18:46
sbalneavNo worries.  After I get back from Number 2 son's Piano lesson tonight, we'll brainstorm.18:46
LnsI'm here for testing as well, at least on Hardy if possible. I'd love to see sabayon functional, as my own downstream techs.18:47
Lnsthey would see it as a godsend18:47
sbalneavWell, I'd like to see it for hardy as well, but I suppose it's easiest to try to get it working on Jaunty, then see if we can backport the fixes.18:48
LaserJocksabayon itself hasn't changed much since Hardy18:50
LaserJockI think the changed a couple not-really-code-related things but that's it18:51
sbalneavthen it should be fairly easy, if we can identify the patches.18:51
nubaeLaserjock did u get my MIR mail?18:51
Ahmuckgtk is dead18:55
Ahmucknokia just placed qt in LGPL18:55
LaserJocknubae: yeah18:55
LaserJocknubae: did you want me to forward it on or did you just want me to look at it?18:56
Ahmucki hear that shuttleworth recomended re-placing gtk with qt18:56
LaserJockAhmuck: I don't think it's exactly dead, but it might be heading that way18:56
LaserJockporting all of Gnome and GTK apps to Qt would just be horrendous18:57
Ahmuckperhaps, but in couple of years will there be a gnome?18:57
LaserJocknot sure, not sure18:57
Ahmuckthough i do hate kde418:57
LaserJockhopefully at the very least, Gnome's knowledge won't die out18:58
LaserJockthey can make a very usable desktop18:58
nubaeLaserJock: yeah send it on...18:58
LaserJocknubae: ok18:59
nubaewhat else edubuntuish u think I can get on doing?19:00
nubaeI was thinking some artwork related stuff if there is any19:00
nubaebut maybe there are more important techie things to do19:00
LaserJocknubae: mind if I tweak it just a bit, we should just list the source packages, lksctp-tools, erlang, and grep-dctrl19:00
nubaeyeah go ahead19:00
Ahmuckbtw, LaserJock the article was a good one19:01
Ahmucki think were going to try to teach hugin and scribus here19:01
LaserJockI've had a bugger of a time with scribus19:01
LaserJockwell, it was *sort* of my fault19:01
LaserJockbecause I did a poster using scribus-ng19:01
LaserJockbut scribus and scribus-ng use incompatible file formats19:02
LaserJockand now scribus-ng is broken19:02
LaserJockso I have a presentation that I can't open anywhere19:02
Ahmuckscribus-ng is the bleeding edge iirc19:02
Ahmucki've stuck with scribus.  i had the same problem19:02
Ahmuckdid a lug poster/presentation19:02
Ahmuckin scribus-ng19:04
Ahmuckkdenlive 0.6 --> 7.x has the same problem19:05
LaserJocknubae: ok, I sent it to ubuntu-devel instead of ubuntu-motu, broader audience19:05
LaserJocknubae: hehe, we're getting some sparks in #ubuntu-devel :-)19:24
LaserJocknubae: do you know if we can use any jabber server or does it have to be ejabberd19:25
nubaemust be ejabberd19:27
nubaeejabberd is maintained by the collabra guys19:28
nubaeso it has quite some commercial support behind it19:28
nubaeFrom what I've been told (and I'm no erlang expert) it is the most scalable and stable solution out there19:29
LaserJockright, but we've got some pretty big issues19:29
LaserJockI just got an email back from the Ubuntu Security guy19:29
LaserJockhe'd need to do a pretty extensive code review19:29
LaserJockalso wants to know about ejabberd's update and patching policies19:29
nubaeyeah I can see the mail19:30
nubaewell, should I dig some of that up then?19:30
LaserJockwhy must it be ejabberd?19:31
LaserJockI would think that any jabber server should work19:31
nubaebecause it is cross platform, fault tolerant clusterable, modular and scales like a bith19:31
nubaeI don't know of any alternatives19:32
LaserJockok, we don't care about cross platform19:33
nubaethere is a good reason olpc chose ejabberd as its xmpp server19:34
LaserJocksure, I realize that19:34
nubaeits written in Erlang for the scalability part, so thats been quite methodical, being that Erlang is not exactly simple19:35
LaserJockbut we've got somewhat different constraints so we should take a look at the whole picture19:35
nubaeejabberd - An XMPP server written in Erlang which claims to be quite scalable.  Erlang is the language created decades ago by Ericcson to power their telephone switches.  It has many features that make it well suited for XMPP servers.  ejabberd has been around and active since early 2005, and is supported officially by Process One.  It also has a growing developer community.  Jabber.org switched from jabberd to ejabberd some 19:36
LaserJockright, I realize that19:37
LaserJockI just want us to be sure before launching into an expedition :-)19:37
nubaesure of what?19:37
LaserJocksure that ejabberd is what we want to shoot for19:37
LaserJockbasically we're realistically going to get one shot for Jaunty at this19:38
nubaewell lets look at the other options... there is the original jabberd19:38
nubaewhich obviously isn't that great, since jabber.org actually switched to ejabberd19:38
nubaethen there is jabberd2, which is now totally unmaintained19:38
nubaeand then there are the slow java beasts  tigase and openfire19:39
LaserJockpeople in #ubuntu-devel were going from ejabberd to jabberd219:39
LaserJocka couple anyway19:39
nubaewell good for them... they obviously haven't researched it compared to ejabberd19:41
nubaethe big problem is latency19:42
LaserJockI think they have other issues19:42
nubaeand we need the fastest responding server out there... all the others have a latency of 3x longer19:42
nubaewell, I'm talking about collaboration19:43
nubaenot messaging19:43
LaserJockok, so we've got rationale for using ejabberd then :-)19:43
nubaeyeah, jabber2 has memory leaks too19:44
LaserJockI just didn't want to go the hard way if an easier route got us to about the same place19:44
nubaeand thats a big issue with xmpp servers19:44
nubaeimagine 100s of people collaborating19:44
nubaememory leaks, even small ones, would end up bringing the server down and requiring a restart continously19:45
nubaejust compare the sites and developer communities19:46
nubaeejabberd seems much more supported and professional19:46
LaserJockright, you don't have to convince me19:47
LaserJockthe issue is trying to get it into Main19:47
nubaeright, just giving u ammo for convincing whoever it is that still needs it19:47
LaserJockso we need two things 1) the upstream questions kees asked about 2) an erlang person to do a code review19:48
nubaea ubuntu person I take it?19:49
LaserJockwho'd know about security issues19:49
nubaeI wonder how many people know erlang...19:49
nubaeit reads quite nicely though19:49
LaserJockyou could reply to kees privately and ask him if he has any suggestions19:50
nubaeI guess morgs might have more knowledge on this19:56
LaserJockwell, I need to run20:02
LaserJockI *gotta* get something done on the dissertation today or I'm toast :-)20:03
nubaeg luck20:03
Lnsnubae: is all this ejabberd stuff about getting sugar into *buntu/edu cd?20:54
Ahmuckas i understand it i can hook up a printer to one of the thin clients and the rest of the thin clients can use that printer?21:18
alkisg!info ltsp-client-core21:25
ubottultsp-client-core (source: ltsp): LTSP client environment. In component main, is extra. Version 5.1.29-0ubuntu3 (intrepid), package size 73 kB, installed size 348 kB21:25
nubaeLns: it is for collaboration in general21:30
nubaeempathy, inkscape, abiword, etc all use it to collaborate and share21:31
nubae+ it does file transfers, video and audio conferencing21:31
nubaedirectory style management of users21:31
nubaeejabberd is the underlying comms that lets all that happen21:32
nubaebut yes its also the heart of sugar21:32
Ahmucki asked about scribus, but was told no on collaboration21:35
Ahmuckin truth, edubuntu could push *untu and linux in general into a multi-user environment21:35
nubaeyah indeed, thats why I'm so interested in collaboration21:36
Ahmuckok.  so i was under the impression i could connect a printer to a thin client and the server would know and allow any other thin client to print to that printer21:37
nubaeyes u can21:37
nubaeusing jetpipe21:37
Ahmuckjetpipe? link for reading?22:00
Ahmuckk, so "sudo aptitude isntall jetpipe" and then rebuild the thin client again?22:02
=== alkisg1 is now known as alkisg
LnsAhmuck: its a bit more than that unless it got easier from ibex22:39
Lnslook at upstream doc. on lts.conf options for tc local printing22:39
ubottudocumentation is to be found at http://help.ubuntu.com and http://wiki.ubuntu.com - General linux documentation: http://www.tldp.org - http://rute.2038bug.com22:39
LnsAhmuck: ^^22:40
LnsSo what's this talk about gnome / gtk going away? is qt really THAT superior that people will just flock to it now that its lgpl?22:42
Lnsi find it hard to fathom22:42
LaserJockwell, I don't think it's quite like that22:43
LaserJockbut it makes it quite a bit more attractive to people who lean that way22:43
LaserJockQt is a lot more cross-platform, and is business-friendly22:43
Lnswhat was the reasoning behind (finally) adapting to a less restrictive license?22:45
LaserJockwell, Nokia bought Trolltech not too long ago, maybe it's a part of "new management"22:48
Lnshmm...i have mixed feelings on that one22:48
Lnsi <3 Nokia UIs... but...they're still a huge company. I guess if they continue down the road of using OSS style licensing, they might just have a fighting chance in the corporate world of supporting open source =)22:49
LnsI just hope Gnome/gtk doesnt go away because i think its much superior to kde in many ways...or even using qt for gnome...think of the implications of that22:50
LaserJockalong with doing LGPL they also made some statements about opening up development more to the community22:50
AhmuckLns: part of the reason Qt didn't get used as much is because of linking against it.  now you can link away and use commercially22:50
Ahmuckgtk won't go away, gramps is written in gtk22:51
LnsFor some reason i just dont like qt styles..maybe i havent seen the right ones but theyre all just to windows like. I like gnome looking so much different.22:52
AhmuckNokia wants products developed on Qt i suspect22:52
LaserJockLns: I know what you mean, but there's some nice clearlooks styles that aren't too bad in KDE422:52
AhmuckNokia could take qt private, rather than oss, however in thier license transfer trolltech made sure if they did all previous version of qt have to be released under the BSD license22:53
Lnsall PREVIOUS versions, eh? so a fork basically22:53
Lnsthat would make things a bit more complex22:53
Ahmuckif they took it private22:53
Ahmuckwhich won't happen22:53
alkisgThat was part of the KDE / qt deal a long time ago...22:54
Ahmucki like that corporate sponsers are putting a lot of oss software out there, virtual box from sun, etc22:54
Ahmuckno if we could just get adobe to go along :)22:54
Lnsim a very skeptical, for some reason novell/m$ deal comes to mind. I guess im just paranoid.22:55
LnsAhmuck: they're coming around, alebit very slowly..22:55
LnsAhmuck: Yes. It's eerily becoming the norm to start sharing human knowledge lately. Very refreshing to those of us that have thought that way all along. :)22:56
Ahmucki agree22:56
Ahmuckthe problem is how does one still make a living doing so22:57
Ahmuckanyhow, so i use checkinstall to create debs i can use in my *untu22:57
Ahmuckwhich allows me svn stable builds of certian packages that have more features22:57
Ahmucki assume that it's more complicated with motu22:58
LaserJockdon't mention you used checkinstall in #ubuntu-motu ;-)22:58
Ahmuckthey don't like checkinstall huh22:59
Ahmuckit works great for me22:59
LaserJockno, they don't like checkinstall22:59
Ahmuckif they would only come up with a motu-install then us grumpy people could create nice packages22:59
LaserJockit'd be like me handing you a .exe ;-p22:59
Ahmuckany reason why?22:59
LaserJockwell, the reason is that it doesn't create source packages23:00
LaserJockMOTU don't work with .debs, they work with source packages23:00
* Ahmuck really thinks ubuntu needs to look at a good packager for other people besides motu23:00
LaserJockdude, been there, done that23:00
Ahmuckmotu or the argument?23:01
LaserJockthe reason Debian/Ubuntu is so solid is because of it's package management23:01
LaserJockit's package management is solid largely due to it's package format and it's policy23:01
LaserJockyou *can* make a .deb other ways like checkinstall, alien, etc.23:01
Ahmuckwell, can't disagree there23:02
LaserJockand for some things it will work just fine23:02
LaserJockbut there is a lot of packaging that you simply can't automate23:02
LaserJockyou gotta learn it, it's an art23:02
Ahmucku were motu ?23:02
LaserJockI have been for ~ 3 years23:03
Ahmuck*shrugs*.  i use checkinstall for my own hugin, anki, and gramps23:04
LaserJocklike I said, some things it will work just fine on23:04
LaserJockbut we strongly encourage people to not distribute the .debs made from it23:04
LaserJockand it's essentially useless in terms of packaging for the Ubuntu archives because we don't deal with .debs23:05
Ahmuckhe he, i post them on my website23:06
LaserJockAhmuck: well, then we need to get you all MOTUized ;-)23:12
Ahmucki need a mentor :)23:16

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