[11:55] <lool> Ubuntu Mobile Meeting in 5 minutes
[11:55]  * ogra rushes to make some quick coffee
[11:59]  * lool finishes his tiramisu
[12:00] <NCommander> whats tiramisu?
[12:00] <ogra> yummy
[12:00] <ogra> now i'm hungry
[12:00]  * lool throws Google on NCommander 
[12:01]  * NCommander has flashes of hummus and chips
[12:01] <davidm> #startmeeting
[12:02] <StevenK> ENOMOOTBOT
[12:02] <Hobbsee> always a promising start.
[12:02] <StevenK> Haha
[12:02] <davidm> Yea, great.
[12:02] <persia> MootBot, #startmeeting
[12:03] <Hobbsee> are you going to play the part of mootbot too?
[12:03] <davidm> OK the meeting is started no mootbot so the fun commences.
[12:03] <StevenK> The nick is registered, I didn't want to get killed
[12:03] <davidm> OK lets get started
[12:03] <davidm> persia you did the agenda for today so....
[12:04] <persia> OK.  Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090115
[12:04] <persia> First up: action items from the last meeting:
[12:04] <persia> I reviewed and assigned the open specifications.
[12:04] <persia> I also sent reminders to everyone I thought would be good to do stuff, and got corrections.
[12:05] <persia> ogra was to finish the touchscreen spec
[12:05] <ogra> working on it
[12:05] <ogra> i had so much other stuff, but i'm happy to report that evtouch isnt ftbfs anymore and in jaunty :)
[12:05]  * lool still didn't finish specs; I'm really late on this as these are to be completed and reviewed by tomorrow
[12:05] <davidm> persia, so all spec's are assigned now?
[12:06] <persia> davidm, I believe so: I'll triple-check
[12:06] <ogra> so we have at least the old touchscreen stuff back in (which didnt look like it would be possible, not even our X team could help here)
[12:06] <persia> [ACTION] persia to verify all specs are assigned
[12:06] <StevenK> I think I can mark one of my specs as Implemented, but I can go through that later
[12:06] <StevenK> ogra: I still need to re-seed it, that will happen post-alpha-3
[12:07] <persia> Getting back to the agenda...
[12:07] <davidm> OK is anyone going to have all of their assigned specs complete tomorrow?
[12:07] <ogra> right, it also has the return of the "missing cursor" bug in the calibration tool
[12:07] <ogra> but thats minor and i have a fix
[12:07] <StevenK> davidm: Complete in what sense?
[12:07] <ogra> implemented :P
[12:07] <ogra> indeed
[12:07] <StevenK> Haha
[12:08] <StevenK> I have one of those, so nyah
[12:08] <davidm> as in done writing and ready to approve
[12:08] <davidm> I'd love implemented but some how I doubt that will happen
[12:08] <davidm> persia, where are you on your spec's?
[12:09] <lool> davidm: Implemented isn't due tomorrow fortunately  ;-)
[12:09] <persia> I need a little help with mid-jaunty-launcher, and will be chasing StevenK tomorrow, but otherwise in reasonable shape.
[12:09] <lool> I'll do my best to complete writing my specs up to approvable, perhaps over the week-end if I have no other choice
[12:09] <davidm> Very true
[12:09] <StevenK> persia: I'd like your help to proof-read my specs, I think some need a little belting and polishing
[12:10] <davidm> lool,  if at all possible we are a week behind now.
[12:10] <persia> StevenK, Sure.  Let's touch base in the morning.
[12:10] <StevenK> persia: *nod*
[12:10] <persia> So, let's get back to the agenda, shall we :)
[12:10] <persia> lool was to bring up DVD with bfiller and others and see whether it's a firm need.
[12:10] <lool> Concerning the UNR DVD: I brought it up during a call on UNR; I think they want an ISO and a way to install from USB, but they don't really care about it size
[12:10] <lool> So they don't target what's in the current Ubuntu desktop DVD
[12:10] <lool> Instead they target having an useful image with an identified set of langpacks
[12:11] <lool> Exact requirements to be confirmed over the UNR jaunty integration
[12:11] <ogra> well, the current iso is 1G big
[12:11] <ogra> its already beyond any CD size
[12:11] <lool> ogra: The current DVD ISO?
[12:11] <StevenK> The current .img
[12:11] <StevenK> It's close to 1GB
[12:11] <ogra> the currnet ubuntu-netbook-remix,img
[12:11] <ogra> s/\,/\./
[12:12] <persia> So let's declare that to be a DVD-type image?
[12:12] <ogra> well, an USB img :)
[12:12] <davidm> That can work, it would fit on a DVD blank, just not use it all
[12:12] <lool> Ok, let me bring back context here: people were frightened about the word "DVD" last week because the Ubuntu desktop DVD .iso is relatively large and hence painful to test
[12:12] <ogra> yeah
[12:12] <StevenK> The code will declare it oversize if it's >1GB, currently
[12:12] <ogra> its 4.something gig
[12:12] <StevenK> I can live with that, personally
[12:12] <lool> The UNR folks don't care about what's in the Ubuntu desktop DVD, they just want a good image; I don't think they target a CD sized ISO either
[12:13] <ogra> 1G is handleable ...
[12:13] <lool> So 1 GB is fine, 500 MB is fine; what matters is that we end up with a good UNR image
[12:13] <ogra> yeah
[12:13] <mcasadevall> yay for system crashes
[12:13] <lool> And right, I agree that testing a 1 GB or a 700 MB image doesn't make a big difference
[12:13] <persia> So this can just be merged into unr-handling-jaunty, or does it need additional actions?
[12:13] <lool> Now we will see how big the image ends up being with the requirements of the UNR jaunty integration
[12:13] <ogra> the -mid image is intresting huge as well though ... is that through langpacks ?
[12:13] <lool> If we want all langpacks and extra apps, it can take a bit of space
[12:14] <davidm> merged into unr-handling-jaunty I think persia
[12:14] <lool> Yeah
[12:14] <StevenK> Keep in mind both images now have pools
[12:14] <StevenK> And pools are large ... :-P
[12:14]  * lool dives in
[12:14] <ogra> but we only install langpacks, not lang-support, right ?
[12:14] <ogra> -support is overkill and not needed
[12:14] <persia> Right.  Let's move on then.
[12:14] <persia> Current items:
[12:15] <persia> First up: I'd like to propose a transition to tracking progress through a roadmap.
[12:15] <persia> Quick review of the status of any specs or bugs that need discussion, to make sure things don't get missed.
[12:15] <davidm> works for me
[12:16] <persia> So, to support that, I've drafted https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap as a list of things for quick discussion.
[12:16] <lool> I'm fine with listing spec status, but what do you mean to transition to it?  Would you remove anything from the current meeting?
[12:16] <lool> What bugs qualify for the Bugs section?
[12:16] <persia> Yep.  Drop the going around to several people and asking about them, but rather focusing on the work needing done.
[12:16] <persia> Anything you've been chasing, or you want to discuss.
[12:17] <ogra> well, we should do a quick rundown on the statuses
[12:17] <persia> OK.  Going through them then:
[12:17] <ogra> spcename: current status
[12:17] <ogra> in each meeting until implemented imho
[12:17] <ogra> *spec
[12:17] <persia> ogra, That's the idea.
[12:17] <StevenK> I think the roadmap should contain the driver for the spec
[12:17] <ogra> we all only have three or four, should be fast
[12:18] <lool> Ok; I don't quite see how that qualifies as a roadmap if we elect bugs there ourselves, but I don't really care about the name; I guess we want a) a list of specs to review on all meeting b) an entry in the recurring agenda to look at specs status
[12:18] <ogra> StevenK, ++
[12:18] <persia> Happy to add that.
[12:18] <StevenK> lool: So we call a roadmap. Shrug
[12:18] <persia> I just picked "Roadmap" because other teams had roadmaps.  I could call it something else.
[12:18] <lool> That's not what I call a roadmap
[12:18]  * ogra calls it Gladys
[12:18] <lool> Let's call it JauntySpecs?
[12:19] <persia> Except I don't expect it to be specs the entire cycle.
[12:19] <mcasadevall> sorry about that.
[12:19] <persia> I expect we'll have more bugs as we get closer to release.
[12:19] <lool> For me a roadmap would typically encompass vaguer things than specs and cover more than just this cycle
[12:19] <ogra> well, we will probably have specs that arent implemented by FF either
[12:19] <lool> persia: What's wrong with pushing them in the agenda simply?
[12:19] <ogra> and fall over into the next cycle
[12:20] <lool> Or do you want to have all milestoned bug reviewed at all meetings?
[12:20] <davidm> JauntyStatusReview??
[12:20] <persia> lool, Yes, I'd like to review stuff at each meeting, just to make sure we're not missing things.
[12:21] <lool> persia: I can't say it's a bad idea, it's exactly what we do during release team meetings, but it's going to take a while
[12:21] <lool> I would find the output useful for sure
[12:21] <persia> Right.  Let's go hrough them quick-like then.
[12:21] <StevenK> Or we could update each spec with one line before the meeting
[12:21] <StevenK> And then just ask if there is any questions, or cries for help
[12:22] <persia> StevenK, That works for me.
[12:22] <davidm> StevenK, +1 on that
[12:22] <persia> OK.  Let's get them updated with oneliners for the next meeting, and proceed from there.  Everyone good with that?
[12:22] <ogra> +1
[12:22] <lool> Hmpf
[12:22] <davidm> But since we did not do that this time can we just have a quick statement on each?
[12:22] <StevenK> Right
[12:22] <StevenK> I was about to say that
[12:22] <persia> lool, You'd rather quick discussion in the meeting?
[12:23] <ogra> only if there are issues i'D say
[12:23] <lool> persia: I have nothing better to propose to what was proposed here
[12:24] <persia> OK.  Let's go through them this time, and we'll look at updating the list with drivers and oneliners for next time.
[12:24]  * StevenK likes one-liners
[12:24] <lool> I wonder whether it would make sense to list spec status in AR instead, probably equal pain
[12:24] <ogra> both
[12:24] <ogra> i mean we should do both
[12:24] <persia> mid-screen-rotation: I still need to review the status of Aberto's work.
[12:24] <lool> I knew saying this someone would say both
[12:24]  * StevenK silences lool and ogra
[12:24] <persia> mid-jaunty-launcher: StevenK and I will chat tomorrow.
[12:25] <StevenK> Sounds omnious
[12:25] <persia> mobile-applications: Someone needs to volunteer to review an email reader
[12:25] <NCommander> persia, I did
[12:25] <NCommander> email and IM was assigned to me last meeting
[12:25] <persia> NCommander, Sorry.  Missed that.  I'l update the spec
[12:25] <NCommander> NP
[12:26] <persia> mid-ship-seed-for-mobile-images : ?
[12:26] <StevenK> Implemented
[12:26] <StevenK> The spec needs some polish, but it's done
[12:26] <lool> Link is broken
[12:27] <persia> mid-application-switcher: not even drafted, but I ought get to that this weekend
[12:27] <persia> mobile-team-seed-management ?
[12:27] <lool> Drafter is you
[12:28] <persia> heh.  I think StevenK already implemented about half of it, but I'll get it drafted so we can tell tomorrow then.
[12:28] <persia> unr-handling-jaunty
[12:28] <StevenK> Processing
[12:28] <StevenK> Er
[12:28] <StevenK> *Preceeding*
[12:28] <persia> Proceeding?
[12:28] <davidm> persia, yes
[12:28] <persia> recovery-partition
[12:29] <lool> recovery-partition: needs drafting
[12:29] <StevenK> persia: As in, work is on-going
[12:29] <lool> poulsbo-packaging: needs more complete drafting, implementation in progress AIUI
[12:29] <StevenK> It is
[12:29]  * NCommander thought recovery-parition was drafted
[12:29] <NCommander> I looked at that spec
[12:29] <persia> offline-installer: I've nearly completed the script to automate the testing, but need to write the spec
[12:29] <ogra> offline-installer: looks like ready for review, persia drafted fine :) no coding work started yet
[12:30] <lool> NCommander: Well the current spec is very vague and doesn't include UDS discussion
[12:30] <StevenK> I'm being bad and working on specs before they're approved
[12:30] <persia> ogra, Right.  I seem to have confied that with something else :)
[12:30] <ogra> persia, erm, i'm the assinee :)
[12:30] <persia> s/confined/confused/
[12:30] <ogra> yeah
[12:30] <persia> touchscreen?
[12:31] <ogra> not sure that will fully make it, but we should have a GUI for the build tools in any case
[12:31] <ogra> eneral-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling: drafting, needs to get in shape, tech info missing yet, BOF info there. looked into evdev code
[12:31] <ogra> +g
[12:31] <ogra> selection-of-arm-images: drafting, though there shouldnt be anything to do for the selection case, the BOF session covered everything, images were selected, needs enablement on the build servers once d-i is ready
[12:31] <ogra> afaik NCommander looked at d-i and will go on there once we're ready
[12:31] <lool> (It's not in the current 'Roadmap' page)
[12:32] <ogra> right, its not really a spec
[12:32] <ogra> since we did the selection
[12:32] <NCommander> d-i is dep-wait on the kernel udebs
[12:32] <NCommander> WHich aren't very happy ATM
[12:32] <ogra> but we should keep it to see how far we got on the build servers
[12:32] <ogra> or the general image status... or some such
[12:32] <StevenK> ogra: And there is no image buildd for armel yet
[12:33] <ogra> StevenK, how could teher be, we have no d-i and no livefs buildd :)
[12:33] <ogra> and no initramfs possibilities
[12:33] <lool> persia: I don't think mid-display-manager warrants being listed, but perhaps the bug relater to startx / CK should be?
[12:33] <ogra> live cant hapen unless there is initramfs support
[12:33] <StevenK> ogra: When I say image buildd, I mean livefs buildd
[12:34] <lool> squashfs-initrds: we need to kill that spec; I should just copy notes from UDS and #ubuntu-devel and close this
[12:34] <ogra> yeah, but there are other showstoppers anyway that need solving first
[12:34] <persia> lool, Yes, I'd think so.  What's the bug number?  Do you want to cover it?
[12:34] <ogra> no kernel, no initrd -> no live image
[12:34] <lool> I don't have it off hand unfortunately
[12:34] <persia> lool, When you find it, just remove the spec, and add the bug.
[12:35] <persia> Anyway, I think I have a solution for bug #291670, but I'm still trying to figure out how the testsuite needs to be written.  Should be done in a couple days.
[12:35] <lool> So, we've spent > 10 minutes on spec status
[12:35] <lool> But this only covers our "mobile" specs
[12:35] <ogra> because we werent prepared
[12:36] <persia> Well, this is the mobile meeting, no?
[12:36] <lool> I have a problem with covering only MID and "mobile" specs progress in this meeting and not at all the other ones
[12:36] <lool> persia: But we have no ARM meeting
[12:36] <ogra> yeah, it should cover the team specs
[12:36] <lool> And we spend more time on ARM stuff than on MID/mobile stuff
[12:36] <ogra> which will hopefully change again :)
[12:36] <ogra> once ARM is ready
[12:37] <persia> lool, It's not really important how you spend your time: this set of specs is interesting to determine what needs doing, and how it's going for the Mobile flavours.
[12:37] <ogra> during arch enablement/portin we should keep that status here as well imho
[12:37] <ogra> it will vanish as soon as we get automated images and the archive is complete
[12:37] <NCommander> There are a few outstanding ARM spec/issues that need discussion.
[12:38] <lool> persia: I don't think it's fair to list half of the specs we work on and take action on that etc. every week and not cover the other half
[12:38] <ogra> thats why i proposed to have an ARM section in this meeting :)
[12:38] <persia> But this is the Mobile Meeting.
[12:38] <lool> So as awful as it sounds, I'm tempted to propose that we have a mobile team meeting where mobile team is not the Ubuntu Mobile project's team, but something like the desktop and foundation and kernel and server teams
[12:38] <ogra> and most of the mobile team works on AMR atm
[12:38] <persia> Just because you're working also on something else, doesn't make this the only meeting.
[12:38] <ogra> *ARM
[12:39] <persia> Anyway, we're getting off-topic.  Let's go back to the agenda.
[12:39] <persia> Any Other Business ?
[12:39] <davidm> persia, we come back to my concern, I don't want to schedule another meeting
[12:39] <persia> (related to the mobile flavours)
[12:40] <davidm> persia, I propose we make the mobile meeting 1/2 hour and have a team projects meeting 1/2 hour
[12:40] <ogra> ++
[12:40] <NCommander> ++
[12:41] <ogra> thats what i suggested from the beginning ... though i'd have said 1/3 for projects
[12:41] <ogra> 1/3 for spec stauses
[12:41] <ogra> 1/3 for general mobile stuff
[12:41] <ogra> not in that order though
[12:42] <davidm> OK 2/3 mobile meeting 1/3 hour other projects
[12:42] <ogra> right
[12:42] <lool> This meeting is supposedly about Ubuntu Mobile; there's nobody covering Ubuntu Mobile work outside of the team; I propose we hold a public team meeting where we discuss Ubuntu Mobile along other of the team's activity
[12:43] <davidm> Lets face it we are enabling the entire main and most of universe so that includes mobile stuff
[12:43] <lool> If we reach the point where we have enough Ubutnu Mobile topics to warrant a full meeting like the one we had until now, then we can reinstatee it
[12:43] <ogra> lool, thats what davidm's setup above covers
[12:44] <lool> Right, I'm insisting on the way we shuffle the names and official contents of this and the new meeting
[12:45] <lool> Now this is not to say that contributions are not welcome, but it's a bit hard to bend ourselves so much right now
[12:46] <ogra> the topic calls this "Ubuntu Mobile Team" so i dont see a prob here, we're discussion what the ubuntu mobile team works on
[12:47] <ogra> (and note it doesnt say *canonical* mobile team ... *ubuntu* includes the community ... i dont understand the naming prob)
[12:47] <lool> There's confusion between the Ubuntu Mobile project which is not related to arm and the mobile team, currenlty manned mostly by Canonical employees which work on ARM
[12:47] <ogra> because we make that confusion up
[12:47] <ogra> the channel topic has a clear name
[12:48] <lool> I don't think so
[12:48] <lool> We've put a process up for joining the ubuntu-mobile launchpad team which is aimed at MID/Netbook, not ARM
[12:49] <ogra> so you would send people away that have worked with us on ARM stuff and want to discuss it in this meeting because they can grab us at the same time in a single place ?
[12:49] <persia> Yes!
[12:50] <persia> I'd suggest they go to the Desktop or Sever or Foundation meeting, and discuss it there.
[12:50] <ogra> or would refuse them from entering the ubuntu-mobile LP team just because their MID interest is in n800 only ?
[12:50] <persia> No reason not to discuss MID-on-arm here, or n800.
[12:50] <NCommander> my issue with sending them to another team is the Mobile ARM guys our here, and not usually at the Desktop/Server/Foundations meeting
[12:52] <davidm> Any we are all not going to be at the  Desktop/Server/Foundations meeting so this is the only place to catch all of us
[12:53] <lool> How can we take community input on what would be best for Ubuntu MID/UMPC/UNR on one side, and Ubuntu ARM enablement on the other?
[12:53] <Hobbsee> ask community people at the meeting?
[12:53] <persia> Hobbsee ++
[12:53] <ogra> by donating a part of the meeting time to ARM ... invite other teams to participate and tell the commnity about it
[12:54] <lool> We don't have an Ubuntu ARM enablement meeting (for reasons described earlier); it's hard to cover these people
[12:54] <ogra> and draw a clear line between the two sections
[12:54] <Hobbsee> the other option is to make a LP poll, and stick it in the topic of #ubuntu-arm or something.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> if you want to specifically target arm people.
[12:54] <lool> Are some people who would quality as community people around?  Could you share your opinion?
[12:54] <lool> *qualify
[12:55] <Hobbsee> I don't have an opinion either way, sorry.  I don't follow anywhere near closely enough
[12:55] <lool> Hobbsee: Would you mind replacing this meeting with one where half of it would be ARM and the other half MID/Netbook?
[12:55] <ogra> 1/3
[12:56] <ogra> 20min ...
[12:56] <Hobbsee> Splitting the meeting into multiple sections means that the first one couldn't run overtime, which may be a problem.
[12:56] <Hobbsee> lool: depends which was first, but I really don't mind either way.
[12:56] <ogra> and it would need annoucement in the channels and MLs
[12:57]  * ogra would see the "cant run over time" a good thing actually :)
[12:57] <davidm> We are out of time folks
[12:57] <lool> My feeling is that we've been designing this for easy access to the Ubuntu Mobile/MID/UMPC/Netbook community from the start, but didn't attract a lot of community so far and might have been optimizing the wrong way
[12:57] <Hobbsee> The other general concern is if you start late due to technical difficulties (or lack of coffee), your first meeting could be forced very short (and presumably you can't overflow to -mobile, as others will be participating in the arm discussion)
[12:58] <lool> Hobbsee: That's a good point
[12:58] <davidm> 2 minutes left
[12:58] <lool> I guess it's unlikely we come to any conclusion today
[12:58] <StevenK> I like how "lack of coffee" is a reason for a late start
[12:58]  * StevenK glances at davidm 
[12:58] <Hobbsee> you'd probably do better to have 2 meetings @ the same time, on different days
[12:58] <Hobbsee> StevenK: *grin*
[12:58] <ogra> Hobbsee, thats what we want to avoid
[12:58] <davidm> Hobbsee, that is a lot of meetings
[12:59] <Hobbsee> davidm: this is true.  But presumably they should be short and sweet, and various people would only need to attend one or the other?
[12:59] <lool> Unfortunately, it reaches a threshold on number of meetings and number of days where people have to wake up very early or stay up very late   :-/
[12:59] <NCommander> Hobbsee, as a general rule of thumb, I think both myself and davidm would be very cranky to get up very early on another day
[12:59] <Hobbsee> NCommander: may you never come to australia.
[12:59] <davidm> If they are short and sweet then bundeling should be fin
[12:59] <Hobbsee> lool: this is true.
[12:59]  * lool :-)
[13:00] <davidm> OK meeting closed
[13:00] <lool> Ok folks, we have to leave the floor
[14:01] <persia> Who's here for the Java Team Meeting
[14:03] <slytherin> me
[14:05] <persia> Anyone else?
[14:08] <persia> slytherin, Unless you've something extra to share, let's skip this week, and come back next week, when there are more of us.
[14:08] <slytherin> persia: I have only one thing to tell.
[14:09] <slytherin> The sync/merge of maven packages have stalled for now as I am not completely able to figure out why some packages have FTBFS in Ubuntu. ex. doxia-sitetools. I will probably continue the work over weekend.
[14:10] <persia> You're working with ludovicc on this?
[14:13] <slytherin> persia: not exactly. I haven't yet collaborated with him about build failures. I will do that hence forth.
[14:14] <slytherin> in any case, the Debian developer who is uploading the package is uploading most of them to experimental. So for solving FTBFS I have to first check if any build dep from experimental will solve the problem.
[14:15] <persia> OK.  I'd suggest checking with him, as he reported last week that he was deeply involved.
[14:16] <slytherin> yup
[14:18] <persia> OK.  Until next week then :)
[16:04] <mib_dmkxwlmf> hello
[16:04] <mib_dmkxwlmf> can you speak spanish?
[16:04] <mib_dmkxwlmf> or only english?
[18:50] <juliux> hi
[19:19] <popey> @schedule
[19:19] <popey> thats not right
[19:20] <ogra> its a very relaxed schedule :)
[19:22] <popey> bah
[19:26] <boredandblogging> ooh oops
[19:26] <boredandblogging> forgot to move the meeting on the calendar
[19:26] <boredandblogging> darn
[19:27] <popey> nvm
[19:27] <popey> glad I actually remembered ahead of time for once :)
[19:28] <boredandblogging> heh
[19:28] <boredandblogging> popey: how's life?
[19:35] <popey> madly busy :)
[19:55] <juliux> evening
[20:57] <juliux> hi all
[20:57] <boredandblogging> hey hey
[20:58] <itnet7> hey there!
[21:00] <dantalizing> wazzza
[21:00] <cdrigby_Singapor> Good <your time of day here> everyone. I am here for the LoCo meeting, representing the Singapore group TUSG (http://ubuntu.sg)
[21:01] <ziroday> cdrigby_Singapor: hey, its not started yet :)
[21:01] <boredandblogging> @now
[21:01] <boredandblogging> shall we get started?
[21:01] <boredandblogging> popey: ping
[21:01] <boredandblogging> JanC: ping
[21:01] <boredandblogging> effie not around?
[21:02] <JanC> I'm here
[21:02] <popey> pong
[21:02] <boredandblogging> sweet
[21:03] <juliux> i am also here
[21:03] <boredandblogging> shall we start with Singapore and then do the rest of the agenda?
[21:03] <juliux> sounds good
[21:03] <popey> rock on
[21:05] <ziroday> cdrigby_Singapor: this is the part where you speak :)
[21:06] <cdrigby_Singapor> Hello everyone. Ziroday & I are here for the Singapore group.
[21:06] <supervivid> and me
[21:06] <cdrigby_Singapor> Aha. G'day, supervivid.
[21:06] <boredandblogging> how many people were at the intrepid install fest?
[21:07] <boredandblogging> pictures of the food look great :-P
[21:08] <cdrigby_Singapor> I was not at that one myself (I was in the US at the time). Perhaps one of the others was at the event. I'm sorry I missed the food!
[21:08] <supervivid> 5 members
[21:08] <supervivid> the food were great!
[21:09] <juliux> where there also some activities befor 2008? and what are your plans for 2009?
[21:09] <juliux> any releaseparties again?
[21:09] <supervivid> we will be planning a few activities, and release party is in the radar
[21:10] <cdrigby_Singapor> 2008 - software freedom day, plus a follow up "welcome to Ubuntu" session for those that visited our SFD booth.
[21:11] <cdrigby_Singapor> 2009 - Regular meetings, new user "clinics" held three or four times/year, SFD 2009.
[21:11] <cdrigby_Singapor> A release party for next version, of course!
[21:11] <ziroday> juliux: but to answer your question, before 2008 there was just loose organization and the setting up of infastructure such as websites, IRC and mainly getting everybody together
[21:12] <juliux> ziroday: so 2008 was your year;)
[21:12] <supervivid> yes
[21:13] <cdrigby_Singapor> It will probably be February before we show much activity in 2009. Lunar New Year is soon, which is major holiday here in Singapore.
[21:14] <boredandblogging> looks like you guys did great stuff for SFD
[21:14] <JanC> ziroday: were the LoCo team members involved in Ubuntu-promotion before 2008?  (I mean, without calling yourselves "ubuntu singapore")
[21:15] <ziroday> JanC: to some degree, there were no big events planned. However we were all together
[21:15] <cdrigby_Singapor> I was using and promoting Ubuntu since 2005 or so. But I was in Paris, France before the end of 2006.
[21:16] <JanC> you don't need (big) events necessarily, I was thinking about giving support etc.?
[21:16] <ziroday> boredandblogging: yeah it was really great. Plus we were the only desktop orientated group there which rocked. Lots and lots of people at our stand
[21:16] <juliux> any plans to get more people working/helping your locoteam?
[21:17] <ziroday> JanC: ah support wise yes, the IRC and mailing list was up then. And were somewhat active. But as juliux said 2008 was our year
[21:18] <cdrigby_Singapor> Juliux: Recruiting is a big concern. Attending community events, such as Interesthink, is going to be a focus for bringing in more folks.
[21:19] <ziroday> juliux: However the issue is getting people from the "Oh hi this is neat" in the conferences to actually using and then being part of the loco. Were hoping  the forums which are more new user friendly will make that task easier
[21:19] <cdrigby_Singapor> juliux: as well, using Facebook and various boards and sites around the area, we will advertise our regular meetings and events.
[21:19] <boredandblogging> how about LUGs at universities?
[21:20] <cdrigby_Singapor> juliux & boredandblogging: Many of us are are involved in other FOSS groups here. That is the other source of recruiting.
[21:21] <JanC> are you working towards non-IT people too?
[21:21] <boredandblogging> think you guys have a good start, but I would like to see more promotion and support
[21:21] <cdrigby_Singapor> boredandblogging: Three universities have active FOSS groups: Singapore Management University, National University of Singapore, and Nanyang Technological University. They all joined us in participating in SFD.
[21:23] <ziroday> JanC: yep, we met quite a few on SFD. Unfortunately many are uncomfortable with IRC or mailing lists. The idea of a website and forum was really really meant to bridge that gap
[21:23] <cdrigby_Singapor> JanC: Yes, but that is a tougher nut to crack of course.
[21:25] <boredandblogging> ok, lets vote
[21:25] <cdrigby_Singapor> JanC: The "ubuntu clinic" idea is focused on end-users who are not IT-oriented. It is meant to be primarily educational for end-users.
[21:26] <boredandblogging> seems like Singapore has good plans, but I would to see the LoCo come back in a few months
[21:27] <popey> I have to say I agree with boredandblogging, I'd like to see more evidence of sustained activity
[21:27] <boredandblogging> after some activity on the forums and some events
[21:27] <JanC> you can try places where end-users come, e.g. I gave a presentation to a computer club with mostly elderly people in it (most evenings they just talk about how to use styles in MS Word and stuff like that)
[21:27] <JanC> of course you also have to adapt your presentation to that public then  ツ
[21:28] <JanC> boredandblogging: +1
[21:28] <juliux> boredandblogging: +1
[21:29] <cdrigby_Singapor> OK - shall we return after April release?
[21:30] <JanC> cdrigby_Singapor: I would say, return if you think you have enough to show, there are no deadlines
[21:30] <cdrigby_Singapor> OK
[21:31] <boredandblogging> cdrigby_Singapor, ziroday good luck
[21:31] <ziroday> boredandblogging: thanks :)
[21:31] <supervivid> thank you
[21:31] <boredandblogging> ok, I had some things on the agenda
[21:31] <cdrigby_Singapor> Thanks. Au revoir.
[21:32] <popey> so you do
[21:32] <boredandblogging> is there anything we can do to promote the global bug jam?
[21:32] <popey> you could podcast about it :)
[21:32] <popey> we could blog about it :)
[21:32] <popey> twitter / identi.ca etc
[21:32] <boredandblogging> popey: we will be interviewing Jorge Sunday
[21:32] <popey> ace
[21:32] <boredandblogging> think all the LoCos know about it by now, right?
[21:33] <juliux> yes it comes over loco-contacts
[21:33] <dantalizing> who are you interviewing?
[21:33] <dantalizing> ;)
[21:33] <boredandblogging> dantalizing: pffft
[21:33] <boredandblogging> ok, so next
[21:33] <boredandblogging> the next two items might be related
[21:33] <popey> i dunno what else?
[21:34] <popey> we could ask all the other linux podcasts to do it?
[21:34] <popey> maybe do an audio promotion they can slot in?
[21:34] <boredandblogging> popey: thats a good idea
[21:34] <boredandblogging> a nice logo or banner
[21:34] <boredandblogging> that people can post on their blogs
[21:34] <boredandblogging> and locos can post on their sites
[21:34] <popey> yeah, "I'm going to bug jam!" type banner
[21:34] <boredandblogging> right
[21:34] <popey> have a countdown?
[21:34] <popey> like we do for releases
[21:34] <boredandblogging> oh nice
[21:35] <itnet7> +1
[21:35] <popey> maybe you guys could make a very short video about it - which would include jorge, maybe 3 mins long
[21:35] <popey> which we could all embed
[21:35] <popey> separate from the podcast but obv recorded on sunday when you have him
[21:35] <boredandblogging> right right, I like that
[21:35] <popey> facebook too
[21:35] <popey> how about a facebook group?
[21:36] <juliux> facebook?
[21:36] <juliux> not everybody has an account there
[21:36] <popey> so?
[21:36] <popey> not everyone has flash
[21:36] <popey> not everyone has twitter or identi.ca
[21:36] <juliux> there are you right;)
[21:36] <boredandblogging> lol
[21:36] <popey> media blitz :)
[21:36] <boredandblogging> ok, will see what I can do about the video
[21:36] <juliux> i think it is more a task for the marketing team
[21:36] <JanC> more places == more viewers
[21:36] <popey> yup JanC
[21:37] <boredandblogging> yeah
[21:37] <juliux> and if we do something we should create content every loco could use
[21:37] <dantalizing> email?
[21:38]  * popey is creating a facebook group now..
[21:38] <boredandblogging> think the banner at a minimum
[21:38]  * juliux doen't like systems where he as to create an extra account
[21:38] <popey> you dont have to juliux
[21:39] <popey> nobody is asking you to
[21:39] <juliux> popey: to read things at facebook i have to
[21:39] <popey> right
[21:39] <popey> and you have to have an internet connection to get on irc
[21:39] <popey> get over it :)
[21:39] <juliux> so the group you reach with a facebook group is very limited
[21:39] <popey> you're massively mistaken there
[21:39] <juliux> i will stop and will let you do
[21:40] <popey> thanks!
[21:42] <dantalizing> crickets
[21:42] <JanC> it's for existing Facebook-users
[21:43] <boredandblogging> next topic...
 it's for existing Facebook-users
[21:43] <JanC> not to push people to facebook
[21:44] <boredandblogging> we can discuss facebook later
[21:44] <boredandblogging> lets move on
[21:44] <boredandblogging> at UDS we had talked about getting successful LoCos to share some stories
[21:44] <boredandblogging> like what they have done
[21:44] <boredandblogging> so other LoCos can learn
[21:45] <boredandblogging> think we said maybe doing an IRC meeting everyone couple of months
[21:45] <boredandblogging> popey: about that often right?
[21:45] <juliux> i think regular irc meeting would be very good
[21:45] <popey> yes
[21:46] <popey> getting them to come along and share
[21:46] <boredandblogging> and gives other LoCos a chance to ask questions directly
[21:46] <juliux> my experiences is the best shareing is if people get contacted personal
[21:46] <JanC> sounds good
[21:47] <popey> true
[21:47] <boredandblogging> so lets try to at least have one or two before 9.04 is released?
[21:47] <juliux> yes
[21:48] <boredandblogging> should we focus on one LoCo per meeting or just a roundtable?
[21:48] <popey> we could trial it with one?
[21:48] <juliux> i like the roundtable
[21:48] <juliux> and perhaps a topic per meeting
[21:49] <boredandblogging> yeah, maybe try with one, if its not too messy, then a roundtable?
[21:50] <juliux> yeah
[21:50] <boredandblogging> anyone want to organize this?
[21:51] <JanC> I think working with topics might be a good idea
[21:51] <boredandblogging> we need to pick one loco and maybe just send out an email to loco-contacts?
[21:51] <popey> yeah
[21:51]  * popey votes the french loco
[21:51] <JanC> and then find a couple of loco's to talk about what they do around it
[21:52] <boredandblogging> JanC: what topic would you suggest?
[21:53] <JanC> I don't know, but we could ask the locos what they want/need ?
[21:53] <boredandblogging> think the first time, it would be easier if we just pick something
[21:53] <boredandblogging> and then after they see how it works
[21:53] <boredandblogging> let them pick
[21:54] <popey> "organising a release party" would be a good one :)
[21:54] <popey> (for the French)
[21:54] <JanC> for example
[21:55] <boredandblogging> ok...
[21:55] <JanC> and afterwards other locoteams can tell how they do it, so that people see there are alternatives...
[21:55] <boredandblogging> so we are agreed on release party and the French?
[21:56] <juliux> yes
[21:56] <JanC> if "The French" agree  ツ
[21:56] <boredandblogging> JanC: it will become chaos anyway :-P
[21:56] <juliux> if we need a second one i am interesting to do fair work or ubucon;)
[21:56] <boredandblogging> juliux: sounds good
[21:56] <boredandblogging> JanC: just threaten to call huats 4K :-P
[21:56] <popey> ooo yeah, I'd like to hear about that juliux
[21:57] <popey> we don't do enough organising for events like that and I'd love to know what goes on to make one happen
[21:57] <dantalizing> 4k is his real name now
[21:58] <juliux> so we have some content for the next months;)
[21:58] <boredandblogging> excellent
[21:58] <boredandblogging> someone want to ask huats?
[21:59] <boredandblogging> I can do it
[21:59] <JanC> juliux: fair work as in open source events or as in ordinary computer fairs?
[21:59] <dantalizing> lol
[22:00] <juliux> JanC: fair work for opensource vents at ordinary computer fairs;)
[22:00] <juliux> JanC: most time there is an opensource area at the fairs
[22:01] <JanC> well, not really at the fairs we do mostly
[22:01] <juliux> but we also have opensource fairs only like linuxtag
[22:01] <JanC> they are fairs where they sell all sorts of new & used computers & computer parts
[22:02] <boredandblogging> cool
[22:02] <JanC> so we get mostly people looking for cheap computer stuff
[22:02] <juliux> normaly we don't attend this selling shows
[22:02] <JanC> the advantage is you get a lot of "ordinary" people
[22:03] <juliux> btw we start next week ubucon-de 2009 organisation;)
[22:03] <JanC> and, we offer to install Ubuntu on second hand computers they buy
[22:04]  * JanC once installed Ubuntu in Turkish for a young woman who just moved from Turkey to Belgium
[22:04] <JanC> nobody sold Windows in Turkish there...   :P
[22:05] <boredandblogging> heh
[22:05] <boredandblogging> ok, one more agenda item
[22:05] <dantalizing> windows with turkish translations? or nobody spoke turkish to sell windows?
[22:05] <JanC> turkish translations
[22:05] <boredandblogging> LoCos requesting to use LP lists
[22:06] <juliux> i personal think locos should use normal maillingliste, because there you don't need an extra account to get on the list, a mailaddress is enough
[22:07] <juliux> so the entry barrier is very slow
[22:07] <popey> it's good to get people on launchpad though
[22:07] <itnet7> we had signed up for the beta ,and now we have 40 users in the beta and 70 in the mailing list
[22:07] <popey> and signing up to launchpad is no more difficult than signing up for mailman
[22:07] <itnet7> in order to get people involved in bug triaging the need and LP account anyways
[22:07] <popey> email address/password is all you need
[22:08] <itnet7> should read: they need an LP
[22:08] <dantalizing> and who doesnt love launchpad?
[22:09] <boredandblogging> the decision the CC made a while ago and reaffirmed by mdke recently was that main list should be on mailman
[22:09] <boredandblogging> secondary lists (like for planning or admin) can be on LP
[22:09] <boredandblogging> apparently LP still doesn't have some features (which, I don't know)
[22:09] <popey> the good thing about launchpad is someone can sign up for a group (loco) and be on the mailing list with one extra button press
[22:09] <popey> archive is appalling boredandblogging
[22:09] <popey> nothing like the archiving that mailman uses
[22:09] <popey> very flat and ugly
[22:10] <boredandblogging> ahh, ok
[22:10] <popey> i am not sure about spam management and other settings either
[22:10] <JanC> mailman doesn't do archiving AFAIK  ツ
[22:10] <JanC> but there are several tools that with mailman
[22:10] <popey> I suspect you know what I'm talking about though
[22:10] <popey> the default one used by lists.ubuntu.com
[22:11] <JanC> I think the intention is to move everything to launchpad once launchpad is ready for it?
[22:11] <dantalizing> launchpad-users was recently moved to launchpad
[22:11] <JanC> in that case we should probably do what the CC decided?
[22:11] <juliux> i think we should hand over that to the cc back
[22:12] <popey> yeah
[22:12] <popey> +1
[22:12] <juliux> the have allready made an decision about that so they should change the decision if needed;)
[22:12] <boredandblogging> JanC: yeah, long term it will moved to LP
[22:12] <JanC> juliux: +1
[22:12] <boredandblogging> awesome
[22:12] <boredandblogging> anything else to discuss?
[22:12] <dantalizing> so is someone going to bring this up wiht cc?
[22:12] <boredandblogging> we need to start doing reviews again
[22:13] <dantalizing> is there support in this council for lp lists?
[22:13] <boredandblogging> dantalizing: if you want the policy changed, yeah probably
[22:13] <boredandblogging> i didn't know about the archiving issue, thats a big deal for me
[22:15] <boredandblogging> JanC, juliux at UDS we talked about joining the mailing lists of the LoCos that didn't respond to the review emails
[22:15] <boredandblogging> and emailing the lists directly
[22:15] <JanC> BTW: how is moderation infrastructure for launchpad lists?
[22:16] <JanC> (I haven't used them)
[22:16] <popey> dunno, i am not a moderator of any lp lists i dont think
[22:16] <JanC> boredandblogging: right
[22:16] <popey> maybe one, but it gets zero traffic
[22:16] <JanC> ツ
[22:17] <juliux> boredandblogging: sounds good
[22:17] <boredandblogging> how long do we give them?
[22:17] <JanC> we had an annoying person on the ubuntu-be list that I'm the admin of, so I think it's important
[22:18] <juliux> boredandblogging: i think if send them twice a mail we should join there lis
[22:18] <juliux> t
[22:18] <boredandblogging> juliux: joing their list after sending the contact 2 emails?
[22:18] <JanC> juliux: if we can join it...
[22:19] <JanC> are all locoteam-lists free to join or are some of them moderated?
[22:19] <juliux> boredandblogging: yes
[22:19] <JanC> (and should we require lists to be free to join?)
[22:19] <juliux> boredandblogging: how often are you mailing them? every month?
[22:20] <boredandblogging> juliux: I've never emailed any contact more than once
[22:20] <juliux> ok
[22:20] <boredandblogging> (but I have never gotten any bounces)
[22:20] <popey> guys - I need to go - I have to drive my mum home :)
[22:20] <boredandblogging> popey: later
[22:22] <nizarus> thx popey :)
[22:22] <popey> :)
[22:22] <boredandblogging> ok, so I send them one more email
[22:22] <juliux> boredandblogging: good
[22:22] <boredandblogging> the thing is that I don't ask for a response
[22:22] <boredandblogging> I should probably say they should respond acknowledging the email
[22:23] <juliux> yeah
[22:23] <boredandblogging> if they don't respond within two or 3 weeks
[22:23] <boredandblogging> join their mailing list
[22:23] <boredandblogging> and then give them how long?
[22:23] <juliux> i think we can resend them a mail after four week
[22:23] <juliux> s
[22:24] <boredandblogging> resend which one?
[22:24] <boredandblogging> resent to the mailig list?
[22:24] <JanC> well, I'd say they should really respond within 1 or 2 weeks after we mail their list?
[22:25] <JanC> even if it's not the official contact
[22:25] <itnet7> Thanks for discussing our topic earlier guys, Gotta Run! ttyl
[22:25] <boredandblogging> I agree
[22:25] <boredandblogging> if it takes more than 2 weeks
[22:25] <JanC> if there is nobody reading the list, then there is no locoteam
[22:25] <boredandblogging> right
[22:26] <boredandblogging> ok, so email the contact a 2nd time, give them 2 weeks, if no response, email list, if no response in 2 weeks, we can consider the LoCo unapproved
[22:26] <boredandblogging> and if they respond at any point, give them one month?
[22:26] <juliux> yeah
[22:26] <boredandblogging> for their approval application
[22:27] <boredandblogging> ok
[22:27] <juliux> but two weeks could be a normal holidy
[22:27] <juliux> holiday
[22:28] <boredandblogging> then I say 3 weeks for the contact, 1 week for the mailing list
[22:28] <JanC> juliux: for a loco-contact, yes
[22:28] <JanC> but 2 mails = 2 x 2 weeks
[22:28] <juliux> oh yes
[22:29] <juliux> so i am fine with your way boredandblogging
[22:29] <boredandblogging> ok, cool
[22:29] <JanC> and a mailing list has enough people so that normally not everybody is on holidays I suppose  ツ
[22:29] <boredandblogging> JanC: hopefully
[22:30] <boredandblogging> ok, I'll update the wiki pag
[22:30] <boredandblogging> e
[22:30] <boredandblogging> and then go back through the LoCos who never responded
[22:30] <boredandblogging> thats all I have
[22:34] <juliux> what about next meeting?
[22:35] <juliux> and have contacted some locos for reapproval for the next meeting?
[22:35] <boredandblogging> ummm, no
[22:35] <boredandblogging> thats my fault
[22:36] <boredandblogging> I'll try to do it sometime next week
[22:37] <juliux> thanks a lot
[22:37] <boredandblogging> thanks juliux JanC
[22:37] <juliux> i will go to bed now
[22:37] <juliux> cu the next days
[22:37] <boredandblogging> juliux: nite
[22:37] <JanC> slaapwel juliux