=== asac_ is now known as asac
loolasac: I sax the new fennec package; thanks for pointing it out!  I need to try it out now08:32
loolthanks fta too08:33
asaclool: file bugs ;)08:53
ograasac, we will :)09:08
* ogra hugs fta in absence for packaging it09:08
StevenKThere's a fennec package?09:09
ograsince yesterday09:09
ograi mean, there is one since wuite some time ... but it entered universe yesterday09:09
StevenKI see that09:10
ograi tried it on the n810 before and wasnt very thriled yet09:10
StevenKOooh, it's tiny09:10
ograwhile its faster its still lacking a lot in speed and handling compared to the maemo browser 09:10
ograbut if oyu tried the first fennec package you notice the improvements09:11
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persiaAgenda up for Team Meeting in 34 minutes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090115 : please add anything you'd like discussed.11:27
ograugh, i still havent finished the touchscreen spec (though started to work on the code :/ ) damned paperwork11:39
persiaIt's all about paperwork!11:40
ograits all about code !11:41
ograpaperwork just documents it :)11:41
persiaI suppose.  I rather like the waterfall approach to software: it helps get the solution right for the largest number of people the first time.11:42
=== StevenK is now known as MootBot
=== MootBot is now known as StevenK
=== mcasadevall is now known as NCommander
=== mcasadevall is now known as NCommander
Toadstoolheya everybody13:37
alanbellhello everyone, I am working on an OEM install for an Atom based netbook, is there any documentation on why I should use lpia vs i386?22:24
ograi think there is some info at moblin.org22:25
alanbellright now i386 seems to be a smoother experience for us in terms of installation and support from people like Skype and IBM (who don't know how to package stuff properly)22:25
Vantraxalanbell, I dont think the i386 has the same powersaving flags in the kernel22:26
persiaThe kernels are different: it's worth comparing the trees to see what you need.22:27
alanbellVantrax: so battery life might be better with lpia. Anyone got a quantitative comparison? (I will probably do my own and publish the results)22:28
ograright, there are some extra powermanagement switches in lpia, but the main issue is that i386 is compiled for m586 while lpia is 686 ... that will give you the most significant difference from a kernel POV22:28
persiaExcept it's not.22:29
persiaThe lpia kernel has CONFIG_M586 set.22:29
ograoh, it didnt when i looked last time 22:29
ograwhich is quite a while ago i admit22:29
persiaWell it did a couple days ago :)22:29
ograwhy was that dropped ? 22:30
ograafaik that makes a significant difference on ATOM and lpia wont run on non ATOM22:30
persiaActually, it will, now.22:31
ograoh ? 22:31
Vantraxpersia ftw22:31
persiaAnyway, I don't know anything about why: I only read the config trying to sort out which kernel to install.22:31
* ogra should read the UDS spec 22:31
* Vantrax should too22:31
ograguessing there is one :)22:31
persiaVantrax, Except it's not necessarily good that the lpia kernel works on everything, because it means fewer optimisations.22:32
Vantraxthats true22:32
VantraxI thought the idea was to make it super efficient for atoms, and everything else was irrelevant22:32
alanbellI see quite a few things that are not available for lpia and lots of scary looking advice about dpkg --force-architecture to get i386 debs installed22:32
Vantraxand i guess another for the ARM processors22:32
ograin that light you should probably go for i38622:33
persiaalanbell, yeah, that's not ideal, but nothing really to do about that.22:33
persiaVantrax, Actually, there are about 4 kernels already in the archive for arm, and probably 2-3 more expected (e.g. OMAP, pax2xx, etc.)22:33
ograeven if you lose 20min battery life through it (which i doubt) if you *need* something like skype thats the cleanest you can do22:33
Vantraxthats good to hear, Im guessing thats the next big expansion area22:34
persiaThere was a UDS session in the Mobile track about lpia vs. i386 where we basically determined that lpia was essentially experimental, to look at optimisations, and understand future direction.22:34
alanbellogra: trouble is from the OEM point of view it means that if we put lpia on we are going to get customers who can't install skype and can't figure out why22:34
alanbelland flash and symphony and Lotu Notes etc.22:35
ograright, thats what i mean22:35
Vantrax... no offence but symphony should never be used, and lotus notes, even the 8.5 linux client is crap22:35
ograogra> in that light you should probably go for i38622:35
ogra<ogra> even if you lose 20min battery life through it (which i doubt) if you *need* something like skype thats the cleanest you can do22:35
ograis wht i was saying :)22:35
Vantraxbest way i've found to do lotus notes is 6.5.3 in wine22:36
alanbellVantrax: yes, I know that but I am a Notes developer(trying to quit) and I don't need the flak from my friends at IBM :-)22:37
alanbellany thoughts on this script http://www.matt-helps.com/convert-deb-package-architecture-from-i386-to-lpia22:37
alanbellI am thinking if lpia could automagically on the fly repackage i386 stuff it would be a bit smoother22:38
Vantraxalanbell, I pity you... its one of the largest gripes with most IT support groups, especially on linux.22:38
Vantraxthe 8.5 beta for linux is incredibly slow, and the 8.0.1 gave java errors all over the place22:39
* ogra lols about alanbell " I am a Notes developer(trying to quit)"22:39
* ogra is a smoker (not trying to quit) :)22:39
VantraxIt seems that domino is losing ground to exchange too...22:39
* Vantrax thinks linux needs an answer to AD/NDS and Domino/Exchange22:39
alanbellDomino is still the fastest app dev environment for a specific class of applications22:40
alanbellI never saw it as an email system22:40
alanbelljust a document database that is good at moving documents between databases22:40
Vantraxmost people do... tho were I work we run a large amount of other functions through domino too22:40
alanbellemail is a trivial app to write using that framework22:40
Vantraxyet they cant get it right >.<22:41
alanbellno, because you can write a better email app if you start out trying to write one.22:41
alanbellI remember ages ago asking IBM to just stop with the email thing and call it a collaboration application platform22:42
alanbellbut anyhow, enough of talking about non-free software :-)22:42
alanbellI think I am going to have to do some i386 vs lpia benchmarks to figure out if we are going to gain anything much with lpia22:43
alanbellone big problem is that the desktop CD for lpia simply doesn't install. It fails to find an installable kernel.22:45
alanbellthere are a load of instructions on how to nurse it though on the Aspire One22:45
alanbellbut that is a nasty to give to customers.22:45
Vantraxwhats the customer base?22:48
alanbellVantrax: netbook, like the Aspire. Previously aimed at bulk consumer market22:48
alanbellthis model will be a linux build as an online sale22:49
alanbellsomewhat sophisticated customers (selecting Linux as a positive choice)22:49
alanbellprobably 2nd computer22:50
alanbellalso possibly corporate deals and education22:50
Vantraxthen id stick with i38622:50
alanbellI think I am heading that way. I just need answers when people say "you are using Atom, but you didn't use the right build for the chip - you idiot!"22:51
alanbellespecially when they see the Mini9 has lpia22:52
Vantraxive found the default 8.10 install rather good on my mini 922:52
Vantraxbetter battery life than windows22:52
alanbellin fact, this is me with my first problem with lpia on mini 922:53
alanbellin my trying to quit life :-)22:53
persiaalanbell, You may find your script easier with dpkg -e and dpkg -x22:54
persiaalanbell, You may also find sed -i useful.  Lastly note that blindly changing may work today, but it's not guaranteed to work as the architectures diverge.22:56
alanbellpersia: thanks22:57
alanbellI kind of think that dpkg should be more sophisticated about architecture relationships22:57
persiaWell, architectures aren't supposed to be that similar :)22:58
alanbellsort of knowing that you can install i386 on lpia but you can't install lpia on i38622:58
persiaMore than anything, it's that even the techs at Intel are still figuring out what to change to optimise for power, rather than optimising for performance.  I expect it will be another year or two before we get distinct enough that it's not convertible.22:59
persiaWell, actually, with today's packages, you can install lpia on i386.22:59
alanbellthere are plenty of similar architectures if you look hard enough22:59
alanbellthere are a lot of Chinese MIPSel chips that implement the bits of MIPS that are out of copyright23:00
alanbellso they end up as MIPS but without the maths co-processor23:00
alanbellI expect the various ARM flavours are like that as it is a licensed core design23:01
alanbellis there any documentation of the UDS discussions about this https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lpia-versus-i38623:04
persiaalanbell, Well, actually, all the Ubuntu-supported ARM processors use the same userspace, which is "armel".23:10
persiaIf the wiki spec isn't written yet, you can watch the video.23:11
persiaI think it is 00002.ogv from http://videos.ubuntu.com/uds/jaunty/Mobile/2008-12-09/afternoon/23:12
persiaMind you, these aren't very excellent videos, and it's live discussion, so lots of "umm..." and the like.23:12
alanbellpersia: perfect, thanks.23:14
alanbellpersia: yes, all the ARM are the same build today, I was just thinking that someone could do an ARM with some special optimisations available.23:16
alanbellbut I know very little about processsor design23:16
persiaWell, maybe.  Personally, I'm not convinced that it's worth having a separate architecture for optimisations.23:17
persiaarchitecture differences imply instruction set differences.  As I understand things, Intel is expecting this to happen with lpia.23:18
persialpia-versus-i386 starts about 28:37 in 00002.ogv23:21

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